WEBVTT - Indivisible: New Approaches to Polarization 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:08.280 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:13.840 We hear it every day. Americans are politically and culturally divided. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.840 But something we don't hear very often is that eighty 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.720 seven percent of us are sick and tired of it. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:25.160 So if so many people feel this way, what can 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:26.000 we do about it? 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:32.720 At the essence, the overwhelming majority of human beings are 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:37.279 wired to want to transcend what is happening to our 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:42.400 society today. We are not designed to be nasty jerks, 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.800 but ultimately comes to our daily habits. 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.960 Daniel Lebetsky is the founder of Kind Snacks. He's also 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.600 a social entrepreneur. He's always believed in using business as 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.040 a force for good, and his approach to the polarization 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:02.680 problem is a non part in civic movement called Starts 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.160 with Us. We'll also be talking to Peter Coleman. He's 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.080 a professor at Columbia and he's working with Daniel's organization 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.559 on conflict resolution along with two hundred and thirteen thought 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.560 leaders and cultural figures. Daniel and Peter are taking on 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:25.959 everything from extremist attitudes to divisive media to power hungry politicians, 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.200 all in the name of what so many of us 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:34.160 want a rational approach to solving our most intractable problems. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:39.760 By the way, if you want to get smarter every 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.399 single morning with a breakdown of news and fascinating takes 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.679 on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:52.360 our daily newsletter, Wakeup Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.200 Heik getting on my ergonomic chair. Hi Daniel, or are 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.760 you good? How are you very well? I'm very excited 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.080 to talk to you because you are a very interesting person, 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:10.359 and to say your backstory is fascinating is an understatement. 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.640 I feel like getting to know you, we have to 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.519 first get to know your father, because he was such 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.200 an important influence on you, and his story I think 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.359 very much shaped the person you are today. Tell us 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.040 about your dad, Roman. 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:34.040 Absolutely, I do think that my story starts with my family, 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.160 and particularly with my dad, who was probably one of 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.280 the greatest influences in my life. And he was a 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.320 little kid when World War two started. Eventually he landed 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.200 in a concentration camp in Dajau and he was liberated 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:52.400 by American soldiers. And I can speak for hours about him, 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:57.040 but I'll say that what was remarkable about my dad Katie, 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:03.040 is that he was able to speak about the horrors 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:07.920 of what he went through without it making him embittered 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.000 about the world or about humanity. He was the kindest, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.560 sweetest person you'd meet, and every person he met it 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:17.880 was like it was his mission to make their day better. 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.240 He was always building bridges. He was always like. 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.800 My mom also was a bridge builder. My dad was 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.720 always trying to connect with people, and he didn't shy 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.720 away from speaking about what happened with him. But he 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:36.720 found a way to remember those small moments of heroism 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.120 by kind people that saved his life as much as 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.120 the horrible moments that were probably the dominant part of 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.240 his experience. But he found a way to remember the 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.120 humanity that helped them survive. 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:56.560 It's unbelievable when you think about how relatively recently the 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.400 Holocaust was, isn't it. 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:03.440 Well for me, Katie, What's most stunning is that not 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.840 only was it only like seventy some years ago, but 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.360 all throughout my upbringing, my first I don't know, forty 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.960 five fifty years of my life, I couldn't connect the 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:18.120 dots of how stuff like that can happen, How could 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.080 anything like that ever happen, and it's very depressing for 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.599 me that I now can understand it that only in 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.480 the last several years have I noticed how power works, 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.320 how humanity can be so manipulated and dehumanized, and how 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:39.640 polarization can lead to such divisions and the rise of 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:46.000 authoritarianism and dictatorial forces. And by no means saying that 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.560 anywhere in the world today is as bad as what 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.520 happened in World War Two. But you see, you can 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.760 connect dots to understand how we could land there. I mean, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.560 ten years ago, none of us thought that this was 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:03.360 remotely an issue, and many of us now can appreciate 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.440 that we cannot take for granted the freedom and democracy 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:11.160 that made America what it is today, and the freedom 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.560 and democracy brought to the entire world, which now literally 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.880 across the world, you see these rise of neo fascist 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:26.200 extremism across the spectrum of politics. You have dictatorial figures 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.640 from the left as well as from the right, across 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:30.960 all five continents. 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.000 We'll talk about that in the work you're doing on 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.360 polarization in just a bit, but I wanted to continue 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:43.200 with your family's story because your father, at seventeen immigrated 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:48.000 to Mexico. He only had a third grade education. He 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:53.479 didn't speak English or Spanish, and he went to Mexico 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:59.640 and became very successful. Why Mexico and to what do 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.760 you try attribute his success? 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.960 He landed in Mexico because he had nowhere else to go. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.960 And ant an uncle of his had landed in Mexico 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.680 before the war, again because they had nowhere else to go, 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.960 and Mexico, I guess let them in. And when he arrived, 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.919 like you said, he the way he educated himself was 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:25.839 by getting used encyclopedias and reading them cover to cover. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.840 That's how he got his education. And he worked double 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.640 and triple shifts till he was able to start his 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.680 small business with his father and then eventually became a 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:41.559 very successful businessman. And we eventually came to the United 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:45.359 States when I turned fifteen and a half. But what's 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.680 interesting is when I arrived as fifteen and a half, 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.680 I had a roof over my head and had, you know, 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.240 all the opportunities that my dad never had. When he 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.440 was fifteen and a half, he was liberated by American soldiers. 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.359 When the American forces were advancing, the Nazis came up 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.000 with a final plan with their final solution to get 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:07.919 rid of the Jews. They didn't have enough bullets to 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.520 kill all the inmates, so they were going to walk 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.280 them up mountains ravines and throw them off a cliff. 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.360 And they were walking my father and my grandfather and 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:23.080 thousands of other inmates without you know, coats, and some 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.480 of them died along the way because they were already 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.720 you know, my dad was six foot tall and he 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.160 weighed less than seventy pounds, so they were all almost 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.960 subhuman by then. And they went and all of a sudden, 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:43.120 a snowstorm hit, so the German soldiers kept advancing, and 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.160 all the inmates thought, this is how we're gonna die 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.880 in the snowstorm in the middle of this mountains. The 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.760 Germans had continued marching ahead because they didn't want to 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.480 get caught by the Americans. So the inmates started heading 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.720 back and when they saw the tanks, they're like, oh, no, 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.200 he are the Nazis again. But it was and it 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:06.360 was the American soldiers in the form of Japanese Americans. 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:11.920 And when my dad first saw them, he didn't understand 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.560 what to make of it because he had never seen 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.080 a Japanese person. And it was Japanese Americans whose families 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:23.360 were you know, incarcerated or in turned while they were 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.760 fighting to liberate another continent. And so you can imagine 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:30.000 these Jewish inmates not understanding this, and the Japanese Americans 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:34.280 being the sweetest and kindest people, feeding them chocolates and 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:39.439 taking care of them. And can you imagine witnessing seeing 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.880 these people that look like they're not human beings, like 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.800 almost carcasses walking and seeing that suffering and that what 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:50.960 had become them. 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.880 That's an amazing story. And just the degree of human 0:08:54.960 --> 0:09:01.880 suffering and then the degree of compassion is just hard 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:06.280 to even comprehend. I think thank you for sharing that story. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.119 At fifteen and a half, you and your parents immigrated 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.360 to the US. You moved to Texas. Was it hard 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.720 for you to find yourself in the United States? Probably 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:23.400 not as difficult as your father finding himself in Mexico. 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.960 But what was that transition like for you, Daniel? 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:30.600 It was a lot of fun, honestly, I mean, it 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.640 was a great experience because for us, the United States 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.120 was not just the land of opportunity, but the land 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:41.040 of Disneyland and long, long, long long Cereal Isles. So 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.240 you know, you in Mexico, there were two cereals, and 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:48.320 here you show up and there's dozens of cereals and 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.200 you can choose a different cereal every day, and so 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.480 it was a lot of for us. It was very special. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.520 You ended up going to college? Where did you go 0:09:58.600 --> 0:09:59.640 as an undergraduate? 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:01.559 I went to Trinity University. 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.480 I was the first person for my family to go 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:08.720 to college, and it was an incredible experience. It's there 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:13.080 that I first fell in love with learning, and I 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.760 became very curious. Up until then, I was a smart kid, 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.000 but I was just freezing by. I didn't really read 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:25.439 or apply myself, and that's when I became an official nerd. 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.880 Well, you must have done pretty well because you got 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.800 into Stanford Law School and you originally wanted to be 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:38.000 a career diplomat, but you changed your mind at Stanford 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:39.439 or shortly thereafter. 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:44.000 Why so I went to Stanford Law because I thought 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.360 I was going to be a diplomat to try to 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:49.959 resolve the Arab Israeli conflict. I was very passionate since 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.520 I was a kid about building bridges, particularly to bring 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.320 peace to Israel and all of its neighbors. So I 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:02.640 had the idea for using business and commerce to encourage 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.240 neighbors to become friends and to work together. 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.840 How did this notion of food and producing food as 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.520 a means to create peace? Where did that come from? 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.680 I studied abroad for six months in Israel and met 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:23.040 Palestinian friends and Israeli friends, and I started becoming very 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:27.360 curious about the power of economics to advance conflict resolution. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.960 Then in the research that I'm doing, the agricultural. 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:36.160 Sector is one of those few sectors whereas symmetrical relationships 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.880 between Arabs and Israelis are possible. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.480 And that's how peace Work started. It was Israel and 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:43.960 its neighbors. 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.320 Trying to show both sides how they could make money 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.280 together rather than fight. 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.360 You got the idea for your company kind when you 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.559 were building peace Works and you barely had time to eat. 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.640 You thought, I need something to sustain me, So tell 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:01.520 us that story. 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.079 Yeah, so I've been running piece Works at that point 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.240 ten years. I couldn't find a snack that I could 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.479 feel good about eating. It was all either very indulgent 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:12.760 or it tasted like cardboard. And long story short, I 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.400 came up with idea for using nutrient andse ingredients like 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.320 almonds and tree nuts to create a versatile snack that 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.000 was kind to your body, kind to your taste, butts, 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:24.760 and kind to the world. 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:25.920 And that's how Kind started. 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.560 But Kind it wasn't just the name of the company. 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:35.240 It was really emblematic of the values of the company. Yeah, 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.040 tell me sort of what your goals were in terms 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.760 of building your business. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.680 So I was so blessed that I discovered the piece 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:48.400 Works model of bringing people together while making money. When 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.840 I had the idea for Kind, I wanted to also 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.960 find a way to not just make money. 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.199 But to do something meaningful. 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.040 The year that I and my team and I conceived 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.480 Kind is the year my dad passed away, and we 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.800 were looking for an adjective that would fit our three 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.280 pillars for the product that was kind to your body, 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.920 kind to taste books, and kind to the world. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.760 But the catalyst was that. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.240 That was who my father was, right, the kind person 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.680 that always connected people. And so I think that's what 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.240 during that year of mourning my dad, it was a 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:29.480 way to honor him and a way to remember all 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.439 the magic that he brought to my life and other 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.079 people's lives by trying to name the brand in his. 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:52.800 Honor movie right back and we're back. When Kind started 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:58.120 taking off, were you like, holy shit, I can't believe it, 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:02.160 because I mean, were you just dumbfounded? 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.440 My experience as a business person, Katie is that there's 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.839 an enormous amount of surprises, enormous amount of stuff that 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:14.640 you learn every single day, and entrepreneurs that or founders 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.240 that position themselves as saviors of humanity are full of 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.440 shit because there's an enormous amount of like being lucky 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.440 to be at the right time. It doesn't mean you 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.800 don't need to have an extraormedly hard work ethic. You 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.720 do otherwise you're not gonna win and be extremely a 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.840 critical thinker and develop curiosity and compassionate encourage in your 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.360 daily life and really really work harder than others and 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.080 be more creative and out, you know, be more disruptive. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.000 But in addition to that, there needs to be a 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.560 enormous amount of luck and being there at the right time. 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.440 And once we launch Kind, You're right, it just took 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:56.240 off and it benefited from all the lessons of all 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:57.840 the mistakes that I had done in my first ten 0:14:57.920 --> 0:14:58.840 years at Piece Works. 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:04.720 It's a huge, I guess billion dollar business now, Daniel, 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:06.480 and you sold it right. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.640 I didn't sell I saw the controlling stake in the company. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.720 I still have a meaningful stake in the company, and 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:16.520 I'm still deeply involved and I love working with my team. 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.600 Let's talk about your philanthropy now, because I know you 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:25.080 have begun to focus your efforts on trying to diminish 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:30.360 the divisions we've seen grow and calcify in our country. 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.520 Why polarization, Why was this area of interest to you? 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.760 Well, first of all, Katie, the way my mind works 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.440 is that I just don't sleep well very very often. 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.920 And I think, as a son of aholl survivor, I 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:50.160 have this extra awareness that I cannot just take for 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.600 granted that I have such a great life, and I'm 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.640 so blessed to have immigrated to America. And I'm not 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.600 saying the United States is perfect, but it's probably the 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.080 best experiment of any other country out there. 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:02.720 But we need to preserve it. 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.720 And I live in constant worry that my children are 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.600 going to inherit a much tougher sort of circumstances than 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.640 when my generation inherited. I mean, I have five different 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:18.040 areas of focus in my philanthropy right now, but the 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:22.640 overarching concern that connects to all of those is this 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:30.720 growing trend of extremism and dehumanization and tribalism that informs the. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.880 Global conflict across the world. 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.600 Is the rise of authoritarianism that informs anti Semitism, that 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.760 informs the conflict that's happening in Israel and the Middle East, 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.840 that informs what's happening here in the United States. 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.880 And you know, social media makes all of us. 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.440 Think we have the answers because we are living in 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.280 echo chambers, makes us all be a little bit more 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.120 rigid and a little bit less introspective and a little 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.480 bit less willing to be curious about understanding the other side. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.600 Same with cable news are just fitting us what we 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.960 want to hear rather than what we need to hear. 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:11.080 And same with politicians who increasingly are just wielding disproportionate 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:16.439 power when they take extreme mistakes. And we need to 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.280 change that because if we don't change that, we cannot 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:23.359 assume that our lives, our communities, and our country and 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.560 our world are going to be what we want for 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.359 our children. We need to recognize eighty seven percent KD 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.600 of the United States are very, very alarmed at the 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:37.240 direction of our country towards so much polarization, so much 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.520 the humanization, so much hatred, and feel that it has 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.480 to change. So the overwhelming majority of people feel that, 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.360 but we're not doing something about it because we all 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.760 feel powerless. We don't understand what to do, and so 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.639 Starts with Us is an initiative. I know Peter Coleman 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.040 is going to join us soon, and he's one of 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.840 our two hundred and thirteen senior movement partners that have 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:03.160 built this movement to try to give people a tool 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.240 kit of small things they can do in their daily 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.359 lives to seize back the agenda away from extremism and 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.639 towards a world that is closer to the America that 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.200 we inherited that they want where we're approaching. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.840 Okay, let's bring in Peter Coleman, a professor at Columbia 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.480 University and also the author of The Way Out, How 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:28.119 to Overcome Toxic Polarization. Peter, thanks for joining us because 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.200 I know you're bringing your experience and knowledge to Starts 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.920 with Us in its effort to bridge the bitter divisions 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.239 we're seen in this country. And needless to say, I 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:45.720 think many people are very upset about the state of 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.800 the country and Peter, why did you want to get 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:50.359 involved in this effort? 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.320 I have worked and studied in this area for a 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.840 long time. One of the things I study is long 0:18:55.920 --> 0:19:00.280 term intractable conflicts. Conflicts are going on for decades, been 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:04.080 getting progressively worse, escalating, you know, for decades. 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:04.360 Now. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.520 I have a lab here called the Difficult Conversations Lab, 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:09.919 where we bring people in who are opposed on some 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.879 moral issue. We study the conditions under which those conversations 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.359 go well and go poorly. So I've been doing that 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.040 for a long time. And because of that, when Donald 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.679 Trump was elected, when political rhetoric was really heating up 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.280 in the US, so I wrote a book called The 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.000 Way Out, which was my attempt to say, okay, there 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.040 is science on this, this is what the science is, 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.720 you know, pay attention please. And then I started conversations 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.840 with Daniel's team and met Daniels soon thereafter. And they're 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.760 innovative group of radical product of tours I think, who 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:46.080 are trying to do disruptive things, and so I love that. 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:50.720 And what I've found is that they were listening to 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.800 the science when we would have a conversation and they say, 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.760 we think we want to do this, and I'd say, okay, 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.240 but understand these may be the consequences, and they'd say, okay, 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.159 that's good to know. So maybe we need to reshape it. 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:08.480 Right, But we have obviously become so tribal in all 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.840 our institutions. For example, you mentioned the media. They seem 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.200 to have a business model that's predicated on pulling us 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.600 apart instead of bringing us together. Well, I would say 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.280 it's more extreme on one side, but we can discuss that. 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.639 So how in the world are you going to change 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:27.119 it now? 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.920 I completely agree that we have our hands full here 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.159 in terms of the challenge, because it's been a challenge 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.719 that I've been following for decades and it's only gotten 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.600 worse now with the power of social media, and they're 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.080 incentivized to scandal. 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.080 So it's a very serious challenge. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.520 A lot of what starts with us is starting by 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:53.000 injecting into our discourse the three c's curiosity, compassion, and courage, 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.000 and they concrete things you can do in your daily 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.280 life to live by those three days, which is not 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.760 just going to be about saving America from dictatorship, is 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:03.840 also going to make you a better parent, a more 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:08.120 effective business leader, a more effective leader. And the ultimate 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.040 thing I would answer is not only the power of 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.800 the people because we're the overwhelming majority, it's that if 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.679 we don't do it, nobody else will do it for us. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.160 So it's imperative that we stand up and do it. 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:38.000 We'll be right back. We're back. But Daniel Lubetski and 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:42.400 Peter Coleman, Peter, where does science come into all of this? 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.480 Everywhere? The good news about the crisis that we're in 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.720 is that it has created, you know, these kinds of crises, 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.199 these kinds of times, create their own conditions for their 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.480 own undoing. So the fact that something like eighty to 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:00.719 ninety percent of Americans are exhausted, fed up, and really 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:04.640 looking for a different way forward, that's good news, right. 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.040 That means there is a majority that is ripe for 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:12.639 something else. This instability that we think we're just coming 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:18.320 out of, COVID, awareness of racial injustice, economic downturns, the 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:22.040 Great Resignation, There's been so much tumult in our lives. 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.480 So the good news is we're exhausted, we're miserable, we 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:30.080 fail destabilized, And so what we need to provide this 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.000 middle majority is what the alternative looks like what do 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.960 you do. Where I find optimism is that over the 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.640 past couple of years, I've had the opportunity to work 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.159 with Starts with Us and other groups that are working 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.359 in all different sectors. That's happening in politics, it's happening 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:51.560 in business, it's happening in journalism, so in major sectors. 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.639 And then there are eight thousand community based organizations across 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:58.760 the country that are doing this at the community level. 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.040 So there's a social movement that's happening. We don't think 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:03.879 of it yet. We're not aware of ourselves as a 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.600 social movement yet. I think that's part of what Starts 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.000 with Us as trying to do is say, hey, you know, 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:13.320 we're there's many good people doing good things bringing us together, 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:18.080 which show us how to have respectful conversations. We're not 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:20.960 trained in this. Americans are trained in debate. So a 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:23.600 political difference comes up and we move into debate and 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.200 it escalates, especially because we oftentimes don't know what we're 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:27.120 talking about. 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.160 And we also just want to win at all costs. 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:33.440 We don't want to listen. We want to prove our point. 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.439 And that's what Yeah, that's basically the design of debate 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:39.600 is the game to win, right, and that's one way 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:43.960 to communicate. But we don't really understand how to listen effectively, 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.280 how to really listen to learn about ourselves and others 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:47.800 and the issues. 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:48.080 Right. 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.040 So there's a lot of work to do to help 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:52.399 Americans see what that looks like. 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:58.199 And also, you know, the political parties are not necessarily 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.720 our best friends, because they're a gen that is to 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.000 win over the other political party rather than to solve problems. 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:08.240 You were saying Katie earlier that in your opinion, one 0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:12.200 side probably is more intolerant than the other. And I 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.640 suspect that you were thinking that the people that support 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:18.960 Trump are much more rigid and inflexible than the people 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:19.919 that are post Trump. 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:24.320 I think I was thinking Fox News versus say MSNBC, 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.840 although I do think they both represent two sides, But 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:32.919 I feel like Fox News is really the devil. I 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.720 have to say, Daniel, I think they're awful. I think 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:41.480 they're craven. I think they care about ratings and ratings alone, 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:44.800