1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: We hear it every day. Americans are politically and culturally divided. 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: But something we don't hear very often is that eighty 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: seven percent of us are sick and tired of it. 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: So if so many people feel this way, what can 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: we do about it? 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: At the essence, the overwhelming majority of human beings are 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 2: wired to want to transcend what is happening to our 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: society today. We are not designed to be nasty jerks, 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: but ultimately comes to our daily habits. 11 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: Daniel Lebetsky is the founder of Kind Snacks. He's also 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: a social entrepreneur. He's always believed in using business as 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: a force for good, and his approach to the polarization 14 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: problem is a non part in civic movement called Starts 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: with Us. We'll also be talking to Peter Coleman. He's 16 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: a professor at Columbia and he's working with Daniel's organization 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: on conflict resolution along with two hundred and thirteen thought 18 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: leaders and cultural figures. Daniel and Peter are taking on 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: everything from extremist attitudes to divisive media to power hungry politicians, 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: all in the name of what so many of us 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: want a rational approach to solving our most intractable problems. 22 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: By the way, if you want to get smarter every 23 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: single morning with a breakdown of news and fascinating takes 24 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for 25 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: our daily newsletter, Wakeup Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. 26 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: Heik getting on my ergonomic chair. Hi Daniel, or are 27 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: you good? How are you very well? I'm very excited 28 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: to talk to you because you are a very interesting person, 29 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: and to say your backstory is fascinating is an understatement. 30 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: I feel like getting to know you, we have to 31 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: first get to know your father, because he was such 32 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: an important influence on you, and his story I think 33 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: very much shaped the person you are today. Tell us 34 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: about your dad, Roman. 35 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I do think that my story starts with my family, 36 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: and particularly with my dad, who was probably one of 37 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: the greatest influences in my life. And he was a 38 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: little kid when World War two started. Eventually he landed 39 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: in a concentration camp in Dajau and he was liberated 40 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: by American soldiers. And I can speak for hours about him, 41 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: but I'll say that what was remarkable about my dad Katie, 42 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: is that he was able to speak about the horrors 43 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 2: of what he went through without it making him embittered 44 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: about the world or about humanity. He was the kindest, 45 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: sweetest person you'd meet, and every person he met it 46 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: was like it was his mission to make their day better. 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 3: He was always building bridges. He was always like. 48 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: My mom also was a bridge builder. My dad was 49 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: always trying to connect with people, and he didn't shy 50 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: away from speaking about what happened with him. But he 51 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: found a way to remember those small moments of heroism 52 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: by kind people that saved his life as much as 53 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: the horrible moments that were probably the dominant part of 54 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: his experience. But he found a way to remember the 55 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: humanity that helped them survive. 56 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable when you think about how relatively recently the 57 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: Holocaust was, isn't it. 58 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: Well for me, Katie, What's most stunning is that not 59 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: only was it only like seventy some years ago, but 60 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: all throughout my upbringing, my first I don't know, forty 61 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: five fifty years of my life, I couldn't connect the 62 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: dots of how stuff like that can happen, How could 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: anything like that ever happen, and it's very depressing for 64 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: me that I now can understand it that only in 65 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 2: the last several years have I noticed how power works, 66 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: how humanity can be so manipulated and dehumanized, and how 67 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: polarization can lead to such divisions and the rise of 68 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: authoritarianism and dictatorial forces. And by no means saying that 69 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: anywhere in the world today is as bad as what 70 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: happened in World War Two. But you see, you can 71 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: connect dots to understand how we could land there. I mean, 72 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: ten years ago, none of us thought that this was 73 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: remotely an issue, and many of us now can appreciate 74 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: that we cannot take for granted the freedom and democracy 75 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 2: that made America what it is today, and the freedom 76 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: and democracy brought to the entire world, which now literally 77 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: across the world, you see these rise of neo fascist 78 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: extremism across the spectrum of politics. You have dictatorial figures 79 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: from the left as well as from the right, across 80 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: all five continents. 81 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: We'll talk about that in the work you're doing on 82 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: polarization in just a bit, but I wanted to continue 83 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: with your family's story because your father, at seventeen immigrated 84 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: to Mexico. He only had a third grade education. He 85 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: didn't speak English or Spanish, and he went to Mexico 86 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: and became very successful. Why Mexico and to what do 87 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: you try attribute his success? 88 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: He landed in Mexico because he had nowhere else to go. 89 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: And ant an uncle of his had landed in Mexico 90 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: before the war, again because they had nowhere else to go, 91 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: and Mexico, I guess let them in. And when he arrived, 92 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: like you said, he the way he educated himself was 93 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: by getting used encyclopedias and reading them cover to cover. 94 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 2: That's how he got his education. And he worked double 95 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: and triple shifts till he was able to start his 96 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: small business with his father and then eventually became a 97 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 2: very successful businessman. And we eventually came to the United 98 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 2: States when I turned fifteen and a half. But what's 99 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: interesting is when I arrived as fifteen and a half, 100 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: I had a roof over my head and had, you know, 101 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: all the opportunities that my dad never had. When he 102 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: was fifteen and a half, he was liberated by American soldiers. 103 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: When the American forces were advancing, the Nazis came up 104 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 2: with a final plan with their final solution to get 105 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 2: rid of the Jews. They didn't have enough bullets to 106 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: kill all the inmates, so they were going to walk 107 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: them up mountains ravines and throw them off a cliff. 108 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: And they were walking my father and my grandfather and 109 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: thousands of other inmates without you know, coats, and some 110 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: of them died along the way because they were already 111 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: you know, my dad was six foot tall and he 112 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: weighed less than seventy pounds, so they were all almost 113 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: subhuman by then. And they went and all of a sudden, 114 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: a snowstorm hit, so the German soldiers kept advancing, and 115 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: all the inmates thought, this is how we're gonna die 116 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: in the snowstorm in the middle of this mountains. The 117 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: Germans had continued marching ahead because they didn't want to 118 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: get caught by the Americans. So the inmates started heading 119 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: back and when they saw the tanks, they're like, oh, no, 120 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: he are the Nazis again. But it was and it 121 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: was the American soldiers in the form of Japanese Americans. 122 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: And when my dad first saw them, he didn't understand 123 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: what to make of it because he had never seen 124 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: a Japanese person. And it was Japanese Americans whose families 125 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: were you know, incarcerated or in turned while they were 126 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: fighting to liberate another continent. And so you can imagine 127 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: these Jewish inmates not understanding this, and the Japanese Americans 128 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: being the sweetest and kindest people, feeding them chocolates and 129 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 2: taking care of them. And can you imagine witnessing seeing 130 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: these people that look like they're not human beings, like 131 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: almost carcasses walking and seeing that suffering and that what 132 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: had become them. 133 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: That's an amazing story. And just the degree of human 134 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: suffering and then the degree of compassion is just hard 135 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: to even comprehend. I think thank you for sharing that story. 136 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,119 Speaker 1: At fifteen and a half, you and your parents immigrated 137 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: to the US. You moved to Texas. Was it hard 138 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: for you to find yourself in the United States? Probably 139 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: not as difficult as your father finding himself in Mexico. 140 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: But what was that transition like for you, Daniel? 141 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun, honestly, I mean, it 142 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: was a great experience because for us, the United States 143 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: was not just the land of opportunity, but the land 144 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: of Disneyland and long, long, long long Cereal Isles. So 145 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: you know, you in Mexico, there were two cereals, and 146 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: here you show up and there's dozens of cereals and 147 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: you can choose a different cereal every day, and so 148 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: it was a lot of for us. It was very special. 149 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: You ended up going to college? Where did you go 150 00:09:58,600 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: as an undergraduate? 151 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 3: I went to Trinity University. 152 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: I was the first person for my family to go 153 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: to college, and it was an incredible experience. It's there 154 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: that I first fell in love with learning, and I 155 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: became very curious. Up until then, I was a smart kid, 156 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: but I was just freezing by. I didn't really read 157 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 2: or apply myself, and that's when I became an official nerd. 158 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: Well, you must have done pretty well because you got 159 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: into Stanford Law School and you originally wanted to be 160 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: a career diplomat, but you changed your mind at Stanford 161 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: or shortly thereafter. 162 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: Why so I went to Stanford Law because I thought 163 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: I was going to be a diplomat to try to 164 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 2: resolve the Arab Israeli conflict. I was very passionate since 165 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: I was a kid about building bridges, particularly to bring 166 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: peace to Israel and all of its neighbors. So I 167 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: had the idea for using business and commerce to encourage 168 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: neighbors to become friends and to work together. 169 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: How did this notion of food and producing food as 170 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: a means to create peace? Where did that come from? 171 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: I studied abroad for six months in Israel and met 172 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: Palestinian friends and Israeli friends, and I started becoming very 173 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: curious about the power of economics to advance conflict resolution. 174 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 3: Then in the research that I'm doing, the agricultural. 175 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: Sector is one of those few sectors whereas symmetrical relationships 176 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: between Arabs and Israelis are possible. 177 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: And that's how peace Work started. It was Israel and 178 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 3: its neighbors. 179 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: Trying to show both sides how they could make money 180 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: together rather than fight. 181 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: You got the idea for your company kind when you 182 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: were building peace Works and you barely had time to eat. 183 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: You thought, I need something to sustain me, So tell 184 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: us that story. 185 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've been running piece Works at that point 186 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: ten years. I couldn't find a snack that I could 187 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,479 Speaker 2: feel good about eating. It was all either very indulgent 188 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: or it tasted like cardboard. And long story short, I 189 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: came up with idea for using nutrient andse ingredients like 190 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 2: almonds and tree nuts to create a versatile snack that 191 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: was kind to your body, kind to your taste, butts, 192 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: and kind to the world. 193 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: And that's how Kind started. 194 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: But Kind it wasn't just the name of the company. 195 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: It was really emblematic of the values of the company. Yeah, 196 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: tell me sort of what your goals were in terms 197 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: of building your business. 198 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 2: So I was so blessed that I discovered the piece 199 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: Works model of bringing people together while making money. When 200 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 2: I had the idea for Kind, I wanted to also 201 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: find a way to not just make money. 202 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 3: But to do something meaningful. 203 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: The year that I and my team and I conceived 204 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: Kind is the year my dad passed away, and we 205 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: were looking for an adjective that would fit our three 206 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 2: pillars for the product that was kind to your body, 207 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: kind to taste books, and kind to the world. 208 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 3: But the catalyst was that. 209 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 2: That was who my father was, right, the kind person 210 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 2: that always connected people. And so I think that's what 211 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: during that year of mourning my dad, it was a 212 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: way to honor him and a way to remember all 213 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 2: the magic that he brought to my life and other 214 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 2: people's lives by trying to name the brand in his. 215 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: Honor movie right back and we're back. When Kind started 216 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: taking off, were you like, holy shit, I can't believe it, 217 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: because I mean, were you just dumbfounded? 218 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: My experience as a business person, Katie is that there's 219 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of surprises, enormous amount of stuff that 220 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: you learn every single day, and entrepreneurs that or founders 221 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: that position themselves as saviors of humanity are full of 222 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: shit because there's an enormous amount of like being lucky 223 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: to be at the right time. It doesn't mean you 224 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: don't need to have an extraormedly hard work ethic. You 225 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: do otherwise you're not gonna win and be extremely a 226 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: critical thinker and develop curiosity and compassionate encourage in your 227 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: daily life and really really work harder than others and 228 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: be more creative and out, you know, be more disruptive. 229 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: But in addition to that, there needs to be a 230 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: enormous amount of luck and being there at the right time. 231 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: And once we launch Kind, You're right, it just took 232 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: off and it benefited from all the lessons of all 233 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: the mistakes that I had done in my first ten 234 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: years at Piece Works. 235 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: It's a huge, I guess billion dollar business now, Daniel, 236 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: and you sold it right. 237 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: I didn't sell I saw the controlling stake in the company. 238 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: I still have a meaningful stake in the company, and 239 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: I'm still deeply involved and I love working with my team. 240 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your philanthropy now, because I know you 241 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: have begun to focus your efforts on trying to diminish 242 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: the divisions we've seen grow and calcify in our country. 243 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: Why polarization, Why was this area of interest to you? 244 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Katie, the way my mind works 245 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: is that I just don't sleep well very very often. 246 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: And I think, as a son of aholl survivor, I 247 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: have this extra awareness that I cannot just take for 248 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: granted that I have such a great life, and I'm 249 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: so blessed to have immigrated to America. And I'm not 250 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 2: saying the United States is perfect, but it's probably the 251 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: best experiment of any other country out there. 252 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: But we need to preserve it. 253 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: And I live in constant worry that my children are 254 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: going to inherit a much tougher sort of circumstances than 255 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: when my generation inherited. I mean, I have five different 256 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: areas of focus in my philanthropy right now, but the 257 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 2: overarching concern that connects to all of those is this 258 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: growing trend of extremism and dehumanization and tribalism that informs the. 259 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: Global conflict across the world. 260 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: Is the rise of authoritarianism that informs anti Semitism, that 261 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: informs the conflict that's happening in Israel and the Middle East, 262 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: that informs what's happening here in the United States. 263 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 3: And you know, social media makes all of us. 264 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: Think we have the answers because we are living in 265 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: echo chambers, makes us all be a little bit more 266 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: rigid and a little bit less introspective and a little 267 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: bit less willing to be curious about understanding the other side. 268 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: Same with cable news are just fitting us what we 269 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: want to hear rather than what we need to hear. 270 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: And same with politicians who increasingly are just wielding disproportionate 271 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 2: power when they take extreme mistakes. And we need to 272 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: change that because if we don't change that, we cannot 273 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: assume that our lives, our communities, and our country and 274 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 2: our world are going to be what we want for 275 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: our children. We need to recognize eighty seven percent KD 276 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: of the United States are very, very alarmed at the 277 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: direction of our country towards so much polarization, so much 278 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: the humanization, so much hatred, and feel that it has 279 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: to change. So the overwhelming majority of people feel that, 280 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 2: but we're not doing something about it because we all 281 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: feel powerless. We don't understand what to do, and so 282 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 2: Starts with Us is an initiative. I know Peter Coleman 283 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: is going to join us soon, and he's one of 284 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: our two hundred and thirteen senior movement partners that have 285 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 2: built this movement to try to give people a tool 286 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: kit of small things they can do in their daily 287 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: lives to seize back the agenda away from extremism and 288 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: towards a world that is closer to the America that 289 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: we inherited that they want where we're approaching. 290 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: Okay, let's bring in Peter Coleman, a professor at Columbia 291 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: University and also the author of The Way Out, How 292 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: to Overcome Toxic Polarization. Peter, thanks for joining us because 293 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: I know you're bringing your experience and knowledge to Starts 294 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: with Us in its effort to bridge the bitter divisions 295 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 1: we're seen in this country. And needless to say, I 296 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: think many people are very upset about the state of 297 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: the country and Peter, why did you want to get 298 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: involved in this effort? 299 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 4: I have worked and studied in this area for a 300 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 4: long time. One of the things I study is long 301 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 4: term intractable conflicts. Conflicts are going on for decades, been 302 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 4: getting progressively worse, escalating, you know, for decades. 303 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 3: Now. 304 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 4: I have a lab here called the Difficult Conversations Lab, 305 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 4: where we bring people in who are opposed on some 306 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 4: moral issue. We study the conditions under which those conversations 307 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 4: go well and go poorly. So I've been doing that 308 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 4: for a long time. And because of that, when Donald 309 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 4: Trump was elected, when political rhetoric was really heating up 310 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 4: in the US, so I wrote a book called The 311 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 4: Way Out, which was my attempt to say, okay, there 312 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 4: is science on this, this is what the science is, 313 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 4: you know, pay attention please. And then I started conversations 314 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 4: with Daniel's team and met Daniels soon thereafter. And they're 315 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 4: innovative group of radical product of tours I think, who 316 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 4: are trying to do disruptive things, and so I love that. 317 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 4: And what I've found is that they were listening to 318 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 4: the science when we would have a conversation and they say, 319 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 4: we think we want to do this, and I'd say, okay, 320 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 4: but understand these may be the consequences, and they'd say, okay, 321 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 4: that's good to know. So maybe we need to reshape it. 322 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: Right, But we have obviously become so tribal in all 323 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: our institutions. For example, you mentioned the media. They seem 324 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: to have a business model that's predicated on pulling us 325 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: apart instead of bringing us together. Well, I would say 326 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: it's more extreme on one side, but we can discuss that. 327 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: So how in the world are you going to change 328 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: it now? 329 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: I completely agree that we have our hands full here 330 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 2: in terms of the challenge, because it's been a challenge 331 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 2: that I've been following for decades and it's only gotten 332 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: worse now with the power of social media, and they're 333 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: incentivized to scandal. 334 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: So it's a very serious challenge. 335 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: A lot of what starts with us is starting by 336 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: injecting into our discourse the three c's curiosity, compassion, and courage, 337 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: and they concrete things you can do in your daily 338 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: life to live by those three days, which is not 339 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: just going to be about saving America from dictatorship, is 340 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: also going to make you a better parent, a more 341 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 2: effective business leader, a more effective leader. And the ultimate 342 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: thing I would answer is not only the power of 343 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: the people because we're the overwhelming majority, it's that if 344 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 2: we don't do it, nobody else will do it for us. 345 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 2: So it's imperative that we stand up and do it. 346 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. We're back. But Daniel Lubetski and 347 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: Peter Coleman, Peter, where does science come into all of this? 348 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 4: Everywhere? The good news about the crisis that we're in 349 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 4: is that it has created, you know, these kinds of crises, 350 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 4: these kinds of times, create their own conditions for their 351 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 4: own undoing. So the fact that something like eighty to 352 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 4: ninety percent of Americans are exhausted, fed up, and really 353 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 4: looking for a different way forward, that's good news, right. 354 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 4: That means there is a majority that is ripe for 355 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 4: something else. This instability that we think we're just coming 356 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 4: out of, COVID, awareness of racial injustice, economic downturns, the 357 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 4: Great Resignation, There's been so much tumult in our lives. 358 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 4: So the good news is we're exhausted, we're miserable, we 359 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 4: fail destabilized, And so what we need to provide this 360 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 4: middle majority is what the alternative looks like what do 361 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 4: you do. Where I find optimism is that over the 362 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 4: past couple of years, I've had the opportunity to work 363 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 4: with Starts with Us and other groups that are working 364 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 4: in all different sectors. That's happening in politics, it's happening 365 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 4: in business, it's happening in journalism, so in major sectors. 366 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 4: And then there are eight thousand community based organizations across 367 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 4: the country that are doing this at the community level. 368 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 4: So there's a social movement that's happening. We don't think 369 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 4: of it yet. We're not aware of ourselves as a 370 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 4: social movement yet. I think that's part of what Starts 371 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 4: with Us as trying to do is say, hey, you know, 372 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 4: we're there's many good people doing good things bringing us together, 373 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 4: which show us how to have respectful conversations. We're not 374 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 4: trained in this. Americans are trained in debate. So a 375 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 4: political difference comes up and we move into debate and 376 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 4: it escalates, especially because we oftentimes don't know what we're 377 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 4: talking about. 378 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: And we also just want to win at all costs. 379 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: We don't want to listen. We want to prove our point. 380 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 4: And that's what Yeah, that's basically the design of debate 381 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 4: is the game to win, right, and that's one way 382 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 4: to communicate. But we don't really understand how to listen effectively, 383 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 4: how to really listen to learn about ourselves and others 384 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 4: and the issues. 385 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: Right. 386 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of work to do to help 387 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 4: Americans see what that looks like. 388 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: And also, you know, the political parties are not necessarily 389 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: our best friends, because they're a gen that is to 390 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: win over the other political party rather than to solve problems. 391 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: You were saying Katie earlier that in your opinion, one 392 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 2: side probably is more intolerant than the other. And I 393 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 2: suspect that you were thinking that the people that support 394 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: Trump are much more rigid and inflexible than the people 395 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 2: that are post Trump. 396 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: I think I was thinking Fox News versus say MSNBC, 397 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: although I do think they both represent two sides, But 398 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: I feel like Fox News is really the devil. I 399 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: have to say, Daniel, I think they're awful. I think 400 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: they're craven. I think they care about ratings and ratings alone, 401 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: and they'll say anything to get those ratings, even if 402 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: they don't believe it's true. And that's been shown in 403 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: the dominion lawsuits. So they discussed me. 404 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: Go on, let me tell you I have equal discuss 405 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: towards Fox News. 406 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 3: But the problem does exist across the spectrum. 407 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: We literally just came out with a study were in 408 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: parniship with the George Mason University's Center for Media and 409 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 2: Public Affairs identified the seven most bi parties and members 410 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: of Congress and the seven most hyper parties. 411 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 3: And members of Congress. 412 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: Marjorie Taylor Green got more media attention than anybody else. 413 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: She got more media attention than all the bipartisans together. 414 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: You would think that the greatest culprits are the extremist media. 415 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: You know, who was the new source out of the 416 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: sixteen leading stations that gave her the most focused on attention, 417 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: The New York Times. If I speak to my friends 418 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: at the New York Times, they'll say, well, how can 419 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 2: we not govern our stuff? So what ends up happening 420 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: is we're just news media with very few exceptions. They're 421 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: throwing the red meat to their audiences and so right, 422 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 2: of course, and it's to your point, it's the incentives 423 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: for the system. 424 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: It's reinforcing preconceived biases. 425 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: What we need to ask from members of the media 426 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: is not that they not cover the crazies because it's 427 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: impossible for them to not get ratings, but that they 428 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: just fine tune those ratios so then they work a 429 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: little bit to bring in the constructive people that are 430 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: actually addressing our problems and trying to advance solutions. 431 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: And people who are working on solutions. The worry, I 432 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: think is that if it's not incendiary, if it doesn't 433 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: create a visceral emotional response, people are going to change 434 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: the channel or not buy the newspaper. This is how 435 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: we've all been condition. 436 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 2: Exactly what starts with us is trying to learn from 437 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: I mean, is those little micro habits that can help 438 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: overcome that. It starts with a little action every day. Peter, 439 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: maybe you can talk a little bit about that. 440 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 4: So a small group of us started to say, okay, 441 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 4: so if we were to actually live these actions every 442 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 4: day for a little bit of time every day, what 443 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 4: would we do? What would that look like. We've basically 444 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 4: generated one hundred different microactions, microactivities, nudges, exercises that you 445 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 4: can do every day. There's an option that's five minutes 446 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 4: and then they can get more. And we piloted it 447 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 4: this summer with a small group of people, and I 448 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 4: participated myself and it was helpful. It really helped us 449 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 4: sort of start to have different kinds of conversations. The 450 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 4: first week you kind of focus on yourself and your 451 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 4: own inclinations and attitudes. The second week we ask you 452 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 4: to start to think about the people you are comfortable 453 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 4: talking politics with. Are you being honest? Are you able 454 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 4: to talk about your own ambivalence, and how do you 455 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 4: start to change that conversation. Maybe the third week is 456 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 4: about trying to find somebody that you're you know, politically 457 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 4: alienated from. Right now, there was a man in my 458 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 4: building who I was friendly. 459 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: With for years, and I read that piece and Time magazine. 460 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: You took a walk with him, took a while, and yeah, 461 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he could not have been more different than 462 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: you in almost every conceivable way. And I have to say, 463 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: I don't think i'd want to have dinner with your neighbor, 464 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: but go on. 465 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 4: But I have to say again, you know what, it 466 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 4: reminded me of what the context of his attitudes were, 467 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 4: his opinions, his part of it was his religion, and 468 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 4: part of his upbringing his grandfather. So you know, again 469 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 4: being reminded of the humanity of this man helped me 470 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,719 Speaker 4: hear him and frankly helped him kind of talk himself 471 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 4: away from more extreme opinions, you know. Right, So that's 472 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 4: one of the activities in this challenge that we offer. 473 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 4: So right now starts with us built this website that 474 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 4: you can go to and register for this thing every day. 475 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 4: You know, there are four or five things you can 476 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 4: choose from. It's like a mindfulness app Right, you can 477 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 4: do small things every day. 478 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm just going to read them and you can give 479 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: us a quick instruction on each one. Number one, stop 480 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: to reset. What does that mean? 481 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 4: Well, that means that oftentimes we launch into things automatically, 482 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 4: we say things, and we start, we get ourselves in 483 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 4: trouble and then we can't. 484 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 3: Walk it back. 485 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 4: So it is about when you feel the possibility that 486 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 4: things could go awry, go into it with some intentionality 487 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 4: and reflection before you start. 488 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: Number two spot positive deviance. 489 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's I mean. The great news is that 490 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 4: there are, as I said earlier, thousands of people doing 491 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 4: this work. I Mean, one of the things I'd ask 492 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 4: you to think about is like, is there somebody in 493 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 4: your life who you grew up with or you know, well, 494 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 4: who is really good at dealing with hard conflicts, sitting 495 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 4: with them, being respectful but firm, right, and those are 496 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 4: the positive deviants in our life. Right. It's not how 497 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 4: to fix problems, it's how do we see people that 498 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 4: already manage those effectively, and how can we be more 499 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 4: like them? 500 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: Complicate to simplify. 501 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, so again these it's very easy for us to 502 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 4: oversimplify them and us and the issues. Right. It's like immigration, 503 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 4: which is this immensely complex set of issues, becomes about 504 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 4: a wall, and that's you know, ridiculous. 505 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 3: Right. 506 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 4: So one of the things I do is, about two 507 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 4: years ago, I identified five people who are on the 508 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 4: other side of the political divide from me, who have 509 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 4: you know, opinions and ideas that are opposed me, but 510 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 4: who I think are decent, well intentioned, and often well informed. 511 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 4: And when the news breaks, instead of just going to 512 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 4: the you know, my comfort news, I force myself to 513 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 4: find them because oftentimes I may disagree, but they're they're 514 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 4: making a point and that's complicating my understanding of this world, 515 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 4: which is so hard to do because of the biases 516 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 4: in the news that you were. 517 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: Describing, Daniel, you were going to add something. 518 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: I just want to say that what Peter does is 519 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: so commendable, and I try my own version of that, 520 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 2: and I don't know if you do, Katie, but it 521 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: is so extraordinarily exhausting, and yet it's also externally accelerating. Ultimately, 522 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: the more high functioning societies, the more high functioning families, 523 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: the more high functioning companies. 524 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 3: Will be the ones that eschew that approach. 525 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 2: I learn to be hardy debaters that respect to one another, 526 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: learn to know how to be critical thinkers and critical listeners. 527 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: Those are skills that have made as the best country 528 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: that we are, the best companies that get created. We're 529 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: going to lose that if we lose the ability to 530 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 2: have debates with one another in a respectful fashion. 531 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: I try to do that. I mean, I sometimes watch 532 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: Fox News. Usually I'm disgusted by how smug and smarmy 533 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: they are, but once in a while, I think, you know, 534 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: that gives me something to think about. 535 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 4: I mean, listening to too much again. What I'm not 536 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 4: recommending when I say reach out to the other side 537 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 4: is the crazy nonsense. I think the Hannay and Tucker 538 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 4: stuff is just, you know, it is problem and it's 539 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 4: it is toxic. But there definitely are smart conservatives and 540 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 4: smart Trump conservatives that still are reasonable, still are in 541 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 4: there trying to make their case that I can listen 542 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 4: to without the craziness. 543 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 3: But also we. 544 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 2: Need to evaluate our own side because the weakness in 545 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: the work I do is when I tell you eighty 546 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 2: seven percent of people are fed up with polarization and extremism, 547 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: everybody nods. Everybody feels it, but most people think the 548 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: problems on the other side. So I have a dear 549 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: friend that I think is one of the smartest people 550 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: I know from the right, and he nods when I 551 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: say this, but he thinks all the problem is in 552 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: the wokism on the left. And they have very differ 553 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 2: friends that are progressive and they not, but they think 554 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: the problems on the right. The truth is all of 555 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: us suffer from this, every single one is because we're 556 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: all being part of the you know, institutions and mechanisms 557 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 2: that are manipulating us for profit, for power, and so 558 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: we need to break those shackles and use the skill 559 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: sets to think critically. 560 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: Yes, well, I think this is such an interesting conversation. 561 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: Daniel and Peter, thank you both so much for talking 562 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: with us. This is a fascinating and conversation and such 563 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: an important issue because democracies aren't guaranteed, are they? And 564 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: we want to preserve ours as long as we possibly can, 565 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: and we're not going to be able to do that 566 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: unless we come together and solve some of these intractable problems. 567 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: Oll Katie, I think from the bottom of my heart, 568 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: not only I'm a big, big fan of yours always, 569 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: but your style of work is exactly what we need 570 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: more of, where there's self reflection and where there's really 571 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: real efforts to tell the whole story. So I think 572 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: we need more of that, and I'm very, very grateful 573 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: for you. I encourage people to learn more at starts 574 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: with Us, which it starts with dot us. 575 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: Starts with dot us. Okay, and Peter, we'll make sure 576 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: that people buy your book as well. 577 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 4: Thank you, Katie, and I want to second everything. 578 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: Daniel sim thanks guys, appreciate it. 579 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 3: Katie, Peter, thank you so much. 580 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: I thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question 581 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: for me or want to share your thoughts about how 582 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave 583 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: a short message at six oh nine five point two 584 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: five five oh five, or you can send me a 585 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. 586 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media. 587 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. 588 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana 589 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, 590 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: who also composed the music. For more information about today's episode, 591 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, 592 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,919 Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit 593 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me 594 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more 595 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 596 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,