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Speaker 1: Mordecai vivos docent the dead, teach the living. That's one

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Speaker 1: of her mottos. And I tell you, after twenty years

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Speaker 1: of dissecting bodies Nicole and Jimmy a Philly girl, as

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Speaker 1: a pathologist assistant, she knows what she's talking about. She

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Speaker 1: posts her work on Instagram, y'all, and she has got

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Speaker 1: over two million followers. One of the reasons is mystery Monday's.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get into that in a minute. But

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Speaker 1: she wrote the book as far as I'm concerned, and

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Speaker 1: the title Anatomy Book, a catalog of familiar, rare and

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Speaker 1: unusual pathologies. She has three daughters, married to a firefighter.

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Speaker 1: She's got her bs and master's degree. She is double

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Speaker 1: board certified as a pathologist assistant and cyto technologist. I

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Speaker 1: don't even know if I'm saying that right. I learned

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Speaker 1: that word about two days ago. Okay, well, you know

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Speaker 1: there's so much we could learn. I'm just telling you

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Speaker 1: there's new terminology, there's things that she has told me.

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Speaker 1: There are things that are in her book. I've never

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Speaker 1: heard of it, never seen it. It is amazing. But

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Speaker 1: the real gift is tonight we got the second generation

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Speaker 1: joining us too. Maria Caine. Honey. She has got a

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Speaker 1: degree in photography. She's a fantastic photographer. She is a podcaster.

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Speaker 1: She and her mom have the podcast Mother Knows Death.

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Speaker 1: It is awesome. I've been fortunate enough to be a guest.

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Speaker 1: They do amazing work. Maria is the producer the writer

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Speaker 1: for the Grossroom, where every week she and her mom

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Speaker 1: talk about freak accidents, crazy injuries, diseases, and murders. Y'all,

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Speaker 1: this is going to be a training day like no other.

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Speaker 1: They are both stunning. Oh my gosh, you have no idea.

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Speaker 1: They are both stunning. They're young, they're hip, and they

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Speaker 1: cannot be grossed out. So to me, they are my

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Speaker 1: kind of people. Please help me. Welcome Nicole and Maria

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Speaker 1: to Zone seven.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having us, Cheryl. We are so excited about

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Speaker 3: these topics we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely listen. I had so much fun hanging out with

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Speaker 1: y'all at Crime Con at the barbecue dinner, y'all, I've

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Speaker 1: never laughed so hard in my life. When they start

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Speaker 1: talking about things that Nicole has pulled out of bodies,

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Speaker 1: like bullets and implants and things out of people's fanny. Listen.

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Speaker 1: It ain't everybody that can have that conversation with you

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Speaker 1: where you learn something, but it's also fascinating and you

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Speaker 1: know down the road it's going to help you on

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Speaker 1: an investigation and you get to laugh the whole time

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Speaker 1: you're doing it. Not at people, I want to be

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Speaker 1: very clear, but at the circumstance, if you're telling me

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Speaker 1: this person swallowed a particular coin and now that may

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Speaker 1: relate to a case, I need to know that. I

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Speaker 1: need to know what to ask somebody to even look

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Speaker 1: for and be sure they tell me. So I have

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Speaker 1: just been so captivated by both of you and could

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Speaker 1: not wait for tonight. I couldn't wait so much. I

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Speaker 1: think Nicole and I have talked multiple times on the phone,

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Speaker 1: texted each other, and even emailed because it was way

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Speaker 1: out of bounds for you know, a text message or

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Speaker 1: a phone call. So if it's two in the morning

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Speaker 1: and I just had to tell her something else I

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Speaker 1: was excited about that I wanted her to bring up.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I had to just get that communication out.

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Speaker 1: So thank you both for being here.

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Speaker 3: Of course, anytime we want to be on all the time.

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Speaker 3: We have so much to talk about.

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Speaker 1: We do and listen. First things first, right out of

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Speaker 1: the gate, and Nicole, I'm going to start with you.

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Speaker 1: I hear people say all the time, Oh, I just

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Speaker 1: want to die in my sleep. I just want to

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Speaker 1: go to bed and drift off and be done with it,

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Speaker 1: with all that you've been exposed to. Do you secretly

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Speaker 1: have a way you hope you go.

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of ways I hope I don't go.

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Speaker 3: If that's helpful, fair enough? I mean, ultimately, yes, everybody,

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Speaker 3: the dream would be to be ninety eight years old

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Speaker 3: in your sleep, with your fam, your family surrounded by

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Speaker 3: you and everything. But as we see in this profession,

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Speaker 3: we see a lot of people that are not that

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Speaker 3: fortunate to die in that way. There's a lot of

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Speaker 3: natural diseases that I definitely do not wish on anyone.

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Speaker 3: But there's also many other forensic ones that are accidents

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Speaker 3: and definitely homicides that I don't wish on my worst enemy.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Maria mac to.

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Speaker 2: Be a romantic. I always tell my husband that you

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Speaker 2: know in the notebook, when the couple's old and die

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Speaker 2: hand in hand at the end, that would be probably

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Speaker 2: the most ideal way for me.

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Speaker 1: So okay, I'm going to accept that. I appreciate it. No.

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Speaker 3: See, I tell Gabe all the time that that I

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Speaker 3: definitely have to die before he does because I will

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Speaker 3: not be able to handle.

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Speaker 2: It unless you could go out together.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. I think Maria's good for the kids. Yes, well

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Speaker 1: that's true too.

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Speaker 3: You won't be able to handle that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's so funny. My old partner, Leslie,

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Speaker 1: we always laugh because she says, you know what if

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Speaker 1: I were just to go out peaceful, that just seems antiicomactic, Like, really,

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Speaker 1: that's it. After all we've done. There's not even a

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Speaker 1: good story like a shark attack. So there is, you know,

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Speaker 1: many sides to this thing. But listen, let's jump into

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Speaker 1: this because I am I'm just on the edge of

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Speaker 1: my seat wanting to hear everything y'all have to say,

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Speaker 1: because y'all we are going to talk about Karen Reid

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Speaker 1: and I know that y'all know, but just in case

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Speaker 1: there's one person that has missed this case somehow, Karen

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Speaker 1: Reid is on trial right now in Massachusetts for the

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Speaker 1: murder of her boyfriend John o'keeth. This started January twenty eighth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. John was found in the snow, located

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Speaker 1: by Karen Reid and two of her friends that had

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Speaker 1: been searching for him because he didn't return home after

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Speaker 1: a night out. They had all been together drinking, having

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Speaker 1: a good time, and she dropped him off at a

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Speaker 1: friend's house. She went home and he never returned home.

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Speaker 1: The first trial ended in a misusal. Some of y'all

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Speaker 1: will remember I called it and the reason I called it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to say again, it was not about

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Speaker 1: her guilt or innocence. It was about the state had

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Speaker 1: not proven murder, not even close in my opinion. The

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Speaker 1: next case, Ellen Greenberg, January twenty sixth, twenty eleven, During

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Speaker 1: a blizzard in Philadelphia, Ellen decides to leave work early

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Speaker 1: to get home. By six forty She's pronounced dead of

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Speaker 1: twenty stab wounds, half in her back and neck. She

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Speaker 1: had eleven bruises in various stages of healing. The body

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Speaker 1: was discovered by her fiance. The apartment was allegedly locked

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Speaker 1: and dead bolted. Her fiance had to break in, just

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Speaker 1: bust down the door. Now this case gets crazy because

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Speaker 1: at first the examiner said it was homicide. The police said, no,

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Speaker 1: it's suicide, and they have recently come out and adjusted

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Speaker 1: it and said it was anything but suicide. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell you right now, anything but suicide don't

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Speaker 1: make no sense because it wasn't an accident, it wasn't natural.

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Speaker 1: So we have got Nicole and Maria here and they

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Speaker 1: are going to break this down. And so I want

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Speaker 1: to start with you, Nicole, with the manner of death,

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Speaker 1: and you just go from there. However you want to

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Speaker 1: drive this train, how you personally have seen some connections,

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Speaker 1: similarities disputes with these two cases.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'm going to start off with Karen Reid

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Speaker 3: because I'm gonna be honest with you. I've been very

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Speaker 3: ignorant to this case and had basically no idea anything

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Speaker 3: about this case, which I like because I didn't get

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Speaker 3: tainted by anyone on social media. I've seen all the

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Speaker 3: crazy as going on, but I didn't know what any

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Speaker 3: of it meant because I didn't know about this case

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Speaker 3: that much. So I really, I mean, I know the

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Speaker 3: story you just told, but I didn't really dig deep

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Speaker 3: into it like I do with most other cases. So

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Speaker 3: I've been very immersed in Karen Reid for the past

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Speaker 3: two days, for about sixteen hours at least probably, and

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Speaker 3: we have a lot to talk about a lot. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So first you were saying that they weren't able to

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Speaker 3: determine that it was homicide. Well, I don't even understand

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Speaker 3: how they were able to even arrest her on that

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Speaker 3: when the medical examiner said that it was an undetermined

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Speaker 3: manner of death. So I don't even understand that right now.

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Speaker 3: So for people listening that might not fully understand this,

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Speaker 3: there's only five manners of death that could be listed

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Speaker 3: on the death certificate, which is natural suicide, accident, homicide,

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Speaker 3: and then there's another category called undetermined, which medical examiners

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Speaker 3: never ever want to use because it leaves a lot

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Speaker 3: of questions, like in this particular case, so they only

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Speaker 3: use it when they're absolutely desperate and they don't know

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Speaker 3: really what happened. And in this case, they saw injuries

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Speaker 3: that could have been caused by an accident, but could

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Speaker 3: have been caused by someone trying to hurt somebody or

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Speaker 3: from blunt trauma. So that right there, I don't even understand.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's more your thing with arresting people and

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Speaker 3: all that. I don't really understand how you could go

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Speaker 3: from we don't know how the guy died to we're

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Speaker 3: arresting this lady because we think that she's responsible for

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Speaker 3: his death.

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Speaker 1: Right in my personal opinion professional opinion, I never saw murder.

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Speaker 1: I never saw it. Even if she hit him with

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Speaker 1: the car, I never believed it was on purpose. Meaning

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Speaker 1: they never showed me evidence that that's what happened. So

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Speaker 1: if I didn't see an accident, I sure lord didn't

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Speaker 1: say a murder.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I one hundred percent agree with you there. So

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Speaker 3: going through when the autopsy starts, the medical examiner had

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Speaker 3: she had some guests at the autopsy. So this is

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Speaker 3: actually a question that I have for you because I

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Speaker 3: wasn't sure of this, but I've been at the medical

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Speaker 3: Examiner's office. When cops get killed on duty and there's

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Speaker 3: there's a procession they take the cops that all of

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Speaker 3: the police follow them there. It's it's very you know,

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Speaker 3: it's very ritual thing they do. I don't know what

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Speaker 3: happens when a cop dies off duty, but in this

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Speaker 3: particular situation, there shouldn't have been co workers, friends' acquaintances

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Speaker 3: at the autopsy because that right there taints.

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Speaker 1: The autopsy understood.

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Speaker 3: What I'm trying to say is that she has. She's

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Speaker 3: being told a lot of stories by people that are

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Speaker 3: on a certain side while she's doing the autopsy instead

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Speaker 3: of just looking at the scientific evidence analytically and not

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Speaker 3: making any kind of preconceived ideas of what happened there.

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Speaker 3: So that kind of bothered me a little bit. Right there,

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Speaker 3: we'll talk about some of the injuries that we saw

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Speaker 3: at the autopsy. So there was rib fractures, and like

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Speaker 3: you said, he was found down, but he was still

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Speaker 3: alive when he was found barely alive, but he was

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Speaker 3: technically alive. His heart was still beating. And Karen had

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Speaker 3: gotten out of the car and attempted to do CPR

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Speaker 3: on him, and she probably she's a finance person, right,

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Speaker 3: she pro doesn't even know how to do CPR. So

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Speaker 3: it's common that you would break someone's rib because you

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Speaker 3: don't do it right. Even people that do it wright

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Speaker 3: break ribs sometimes. So if you see rib fractures at

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Speaker 3: autopsy on a person that had CPR, that that doesn't

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Speaker 3: indicate any kind of trauma to me as far as

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Speaker 3: I'm concerned. He had a couple of weird bruises on

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Speaker 3: his hands, but they were on the door some of

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Speaker 3: the hand, which is the top of your hand, and

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Speaker 3: anybody if you ever think when did you ever get

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Speaker 3: a bruise there, that's always because of getting your blood

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Speaker 3: taken or getting an IV put in. And we know

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Speaker 3: he was technically alive when he was found, so that

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Speaker 3: would be an indication that would cause bruising. So I'm

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Speaker 3: not worried about those bruises on his hands. Now, he

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Speaker 3: had two different significant things that were considered to be

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Speaker 3: so even though she said it was an undetermined manner

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Speaker 3: of death, she said that the cause of death was

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Speaker 3: because of number one, this head injury that he had,

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Speaker 3: and number two hypothermia. So first we're going to start

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Speaker 3: with the head injury. So when you look at when

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Speaker 3: an average person looks at a person in this condition,

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Speaker 3: he looks like he got punched in both of his eyes.

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Speaker 3: Both of his eyes are black and blue. What you

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Speaker 3: would think would be a typical black eye, but actually

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Speaker 3: he does and have true black eyes, meaning that he

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Speaker 3: got some kind of trauma that caused that. On the

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Speaker 3: eye itself. What happens is is sometimes you could have

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Speaker 3: a really bad skull fracture at the base of your

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Speaker 3: skull and that let's think about this, the skull is

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Speaker 3: made up of twenty two bones, believe it or not,

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Speaker 3: and they're all they're all fused together and stuck together

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Speaker 3: by these little squeggly lines. I'm sure you've seen them.

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Speaker 3: One of skull called futures.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't realize it was twenty two.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there's a lot of them. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of little bones there. So, but they're all stuck together.

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Speaker 3: But when you have trauma to it, they are a

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Speaker 3: source of weakness. Those little the attachments of the little bones,

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Speaker 3: and they could fracture. So the base of the skull fractures,

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Speaker 3: and then blood seeps into the tissues and goes into

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Speaker 3: the eyes, so it's kind of underneath the eyes. They're

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Speaker 3: called bilateral peri orbital echimosis, which sounds crazy, also known

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Speaker 3: as raccoon eyes. What you would call it for you know,

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Speaker 3: a lay person. So when you look at him, it

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Speaker 3: looks like someone beat the crap out of his face,

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Speaker 3: but that's not the case. He does have a laceration

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Speaker 3: on the back of his head and an abrasion surrounding that.

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Speaker 3: So laceration is a tear in the skin caused by

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Speaker 3: blunt trauma. So that could be caused by someone hitting

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Speaker 3: him over the head with a baseball bat, for example,

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Speaker 3: and the bat the blunt object of the bat against

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Speaker 3: the blunt skull and just the skin straight against the

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Speaker 3: skull would cause the skin to split. That could also

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Speaker 3: happen from falling down backwards. So a good example for

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Speaker 3: the audience is this just happened to Bob Zagat a

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Speaker 3: couple of years ago. When he died. He was he

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Speaker 3: was at a hotel, he was having a show. He

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Speaker 3: fell out of he got out of bed, he fell,

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Speaker 3: he hit the back of his head. He had a

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Speaker 3: basil or skull fracture, and that was what ended up

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Speaker 3: being his cause of death there. So, like you could

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Speaker 3: see with Bob Saggat, young guy, he didn't have to

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Speaker 3: have really too much trauma in order to have that

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Speaker 3: kind of a skull fracture. He just fell down and

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Speaker 3: hit his head either on the bedposter on the ground.

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Speaker 3: So it's a similar thing in this case. He just

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Speaker 3: had this kind of a slit on the back of

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Speaker 3: his head. It doesn't really look like much, but that's

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Speaker 3: what caused this brain injury. So the medical examiner is saying, Okay,

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Speaker 3: so he had this brain injury. It wasn't enough to

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Speaker 3: kill him, but it was enough for him to be

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Speaker 3: down in the snow and not be able to get up,

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Speaker 3: and he could have even been unconscious. Right now, this

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Speaker 3: is where I have a lot of questions. We're going

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Speaker 3: to go to the hypothermia part of it, and then

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Speaker 3: we maybe let's go let's do the arms first before

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Speaker 3: we get to the hypothermia. So he has injuries on

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Speaker 3: his arms that the medical examiner described as abrasions, which

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Speaker 3: an abrasion, a fancy word for or a regular word

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Speaker 3: for abrasion, is a scrape. So when you're a little

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Speaker 3: kid and you're running and you scrape your knee, that's

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Speaker 3: what it looks like. It has a very distinct look

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Speaker 3: and it's very superficial. She's saying that he has abrasions.

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Speaker 3: I look at them, and no, I absolutely would not

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Speaker 3: describe them as abrasions. There's been so obviously during the case,

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Speaker 3: there's been a lot brought up about there being some

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Speaker 3: kind of an animal attack, a large animal, possibly a dog,

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Speaker 3: and I can kind of more go with that as

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Speaker 3: far as the appearance of these wounds. If you talk

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Speaker 3: about forensic dog bite analysis, which is a thing, these

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Speaker 3: wounds have very specific looking appearance because of the shape

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Speaker 3: of the teeth and the way that dogs attack. So

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Speaker 3: the medical examiner in this case said that he didn't

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Speaker 3: have any self defense wounds, meaning if he was fighting,

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Speaker 3: if he was in a fistfight with somebody, there would

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Speaker 3: be evidence on his half that his knuckles might be

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Speaker 3: bloody or he might look like he was putting up

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Speaker 3: a struggle. But I would argue that he does have

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Speaker 3: self defense wounds, but it's against an animal, because that's

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Speaker 3: where a dog would if you were trying to get

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Speaker 3: a dog off you, you would have claw marks and

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Speaker 3: bite marks on your arm, especially your dominant arm.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing about that, when you start talking

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Speaker 1: about a scrape, there's no comparing what anybody would interpret

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Speaker 1: as a scrape to the injury to his arm or

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Speaker 1: the injuries to his arm. And for me, and I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you this, they're all they got two lines.

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Speaker 1: For the most part, those lines are parallel, and they're

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Speaker 1: going slightly in different directions, which to me would be

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Speaker 1: indicative of an animal attack as well, if his arm

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Speaker 1: is moving and the animal is moving. And the pieces

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Speaker 1: of glass that they showed, I could not see one

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Speaker 1: that would have two protruding pieces of like the little

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Speaker 1: triangle on the ends that would have scratched his arm

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Speaker 1: in that manner. Not one of the samples that I saw.

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Speaker 3: So I'm curious because, like I said, I am mostly

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Speaker 3: ignorant to this case because I don't care. The way

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Speaker 3: I look at things is like I don't really care

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Speaker 3: what the evidence is because what I see is what

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Speaker 3: I see, and I don't care what you're trying to

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Speaker 3: tell me I see, because that's not it, you know.

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Speaker 3: So they were trying to say it was either a

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Speaker 3: piece of the broken the plastic of the headlight, or

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Speaker 3: from the glass he was holding. Absolutely not, absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: So the dog bites have a very specific look. They're

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Speaker 3: a V shape. Look at those wounds. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if you have a picture of it right in front

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Speaker 3: of you. They just have a very specific shape that

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Speaker 3: their V and they have these deep furrows that it's

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Speaker 3: almost like a tunnel that's pulled down from the dog's

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Speaker 3: tooth as the person's trying to pull their arm off.

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Speaker 3: It's just so specific looking that it's But listen from

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Speaker 3: the medical examiner's perspective, she's hearing that this guy was

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Speaker 3: a hit and run. That's all she's hearing. She's not

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Speaker 3: even thinking there's a dog anywhere near it. She's not

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Speaker 3: thinking of any other thing that could have happened, because

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Speaker 3: they're convinced that this lady backed up into him. That's

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Speaker 3: what I'm saying, Like she shouldn't have had that inner

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Speaker 3: ear when she was looking at it because she wasn't thinking,

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Speaker 3: because that's not an abrasion.

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Speaker 1: If I can just ask Maria something, I know that

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Speaker 1: you are young, and you're probably much more skilled in

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Speaker 1: social media than anybody else. Did you see on social

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Speaker 1: media just the divide on this case, like there was

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Speaker 1: no gray area. You were either tame Karen or tame

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Speaker 1: John and that was it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think we're experiencing a similar thing with Blake

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Speaker 2: Lively and justin Baldoni lawsuit, where it's your one way

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Speaker 2: or the other. And I think generally speaking, we're living

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Speaker 2: in this society where if you don't feel or think

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Speaker 2: the same way I do, then you're my enemy. And

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Speaker 2: I think we're getting in this really toxic world of

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Speaker 2: this on social media. And because true crime is so

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Speaker 2: popular right now with social media and the Internet, everybody

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Speaker 2: thinks they're a detective so I think when everybody's on

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Speaker 2: these Reddit forums and x and Instagram, they get any

359
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 2: hint of something being a miss and they have to

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Speaker 2: go into the deepest possible conspiracies about that and look

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Speaker 2: into it. And I think because of that, with the

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Speaker 2: history of corruption within the Boston Police Department, with the

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Speaker 2: fact that Karen Reid is a beautiful female murder defendant,

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Speaker 2: they didn't take proper protocol. I think it's really hard

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Speaker 2: for people to be on the side of the prosecution

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Speaker 2: because of all these missteps they took.

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Speaker 1: Listen, I was very vocal. I did not think they

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Speaker 1: would even retry her. I don't know ethically how they could. Now. Again,

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I am not talking about

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Speaker 1: whether she did or didn't do something. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: the evidence that was presented, which for a homicide wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: It could not meet the standard of a homicide, and Nicole,

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Speaker 1: to your point, I don't know how they arrested her

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Speaker 1: in the first place.

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Speaker 3: It's really boggling my mind. And the forensics just seemed

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Speaker 3: really kind of sloppy here, and I hate.

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Speaker 1: To say that, it just well, I don't let me

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Speaker 1: tell you something. For every single detective listening to me.

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Speaker 1: For every rookie officer listening to me. When you have

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Speaker 1: the quote homicide of a fellow police officer and your

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Speaker 1: lead detective doesn't go to the crime scene, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: accept that in a movie. I would say, this movie

383
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 1: is silly, that doesn't even make any sense. Find something

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Speaker 1: else this happened, and the other thing that bothers me.

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Speaker 1: And again, I know, Nicole, you already said, you know

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Speaker 1: that's not what you look at, and I get it.

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Speaker 1: But in my world, I have to look at it

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Speaker 1: because I have to take what you tell me and

389
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Speaker 1: what other people's actions are so that I can have

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Speaker 1: a totality of what occurred and a complete understanding. You're

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Speaker 1: telling me that a friend of yours died in your

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Speaker 1: front yard and you never came outside. Not a shot

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Speaker 1: that's happening. You're going to come outside if a stranger

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Speaker 1: died on your front yard, much less somebody that was

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Speaker 1: your in, much less a police officer.

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Speaker 3: I just I can't. I can't believe they did not

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Speaker 3: go in the house. I just can't believe it. I

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Speaker 3: can't wrap my brain around it that they didn't think, oh,

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Speaker 3: there's a there's a dead guy. On your lawn and

400
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: you're not going to go check what's happening in the

401
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 3: house that he was supposed to be at. That This

402
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 3: is why nobody this is why you got to dissect

403
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 3: it out, because nobody's going to trust you at your

404
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 3: face value, you know.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you this. When you're looking at

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Speaker 1: the ribs and you notice, okay, he's got some rib fractors,

407
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Speaker 1: but no bruising on his abdomen, that makes you say

408
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Speaker 1: CPR more than he was hit by a car.

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Speaker 3: Well, you can get bruising with CPR, too, but it's

410
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 3: just more the location. It's right where the ribs meet

411
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Speaker 3: the stern on. It's just a very typical location that

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Speaker 3: you would see CPR injury. And I really don't I

413
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Speaker 3: don't think that he had any sign that he was

414
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 3: in an actual fistfight. What is really a potential possibility

415
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Speaker 3: is that he did get attacked somehow by the dog

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Speaker 3: and then fell backwards and hit his head. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's all I could think of right now. Although his body,

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Speaker 3: I don't really have one hundred percent of scenario of

419
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Speaker 3: what did happen. I could just tell you what absolutely didn't.

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Speaker 2: Happen, but well, you're questioning the hypothermia timeline.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's for me, that's the biggest part

422
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Speaker 3: of the case. And I couldn't even find anything of

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Speaker 3: anybody even questioning this. So I want to bring this

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00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: up to you because according to their timeline, he got

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Speaker 3: dropped off twelve thirty ish and then they found him

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Speaker 3: at six o'clock, so that would be five and a

427
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Speaker 3: half hours he was outside. So it just seems there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of different things that happens when you're out

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Speaker 3: in the cold, and to forensics and new in law

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Speaker 3: of cooling and everything like that, it just doesn't seem

431
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 3: possible even a little bit, like the timeline is way off.

432
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 3: So let me give you an example. If you're talking

433
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: about new in law of cooling, a person that's one

434
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 3: hundred and seventy six pounds in twenty five degree weather

435
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: with an air and wind of ten miles an hour,

436
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 3: they should be at mild hypothermia at a half hour,

437
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 3: moderate at one hour, severe at one point five hours,

438
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: and in two and a half hours they should be dead. Okay,

439
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 3: Now I don't know how much he weighed, so if

440
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: he weighed more, the times would be different. But there's

441
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: also so many other things that would accelerate this. In

442
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 3: his case, for example, he was drunk. Alcohol accelerates this.

443
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 3: He was incapacitated with his head injury. The reason that

444
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 3: you stay alive when you're outside is because you're shivering

445
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 3: and it creates heat. That's what keeps you going. Because

446
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: the whole point is is that you want the blood

447
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 3: flow to stay around the organs, to keep the organs

448
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: warm because they have to be at homeostasis at ninety

449
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 3: eight degrees and they if they're lower, they're not going

450
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 3: to function. So what happens is all the blood vessels

451
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: in the body they shrink up and they send all

452
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 3: of the blood to your torso basically because at that

453
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: point you're in survival mode and your body is just like, hey,

454
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 3: I don't need these arms and legs anymore, Like we

455
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: need to keep these organs warm. Right, So he should

456
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 3: have signs of frostbite being outside so long, just things

457
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 3: that I mean, I saw pictures of his hands. It

458
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: doesn't look like he really has anything that severe. And

459
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: then so the alcohol, the not shivering, not being dressed

460
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 3: appropriately for the weather, he was literally laying on ice

461
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 3: with a didn't have a t shirt and hoodie on

462
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: over top of it, no coat, right, so that makes

463
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 3: it even even more susceptible because his body wasn't covered properly.

464
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, there was an active

465
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 3: blizzard going on, a blizzard with high winds and snow,

466
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 3: at least three inches of snow at that time. I

467
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: think that day it snowed almost over twenty inches within

468
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 3: twenty four hours, but that was seemed to be the

469
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 3: beginning of the snowstorm. But that way more than ten

470
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 3: mile an hour winds. So just according to forensic literature,

471
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: it just seems that that timeline is impossible. What do

472
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 3: you think about that? I mean, I would I would say,

473
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: which puts us more around two and a half hours.

474
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: And then you're thinking, okay, well, then let's think about

475
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: other things that were going on around that time, round

476
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: three something in the morning. The plow driver drove by

477
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 3: at that time and said he didn't see anybody on

478
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: the lawn. And I don't know if they've bunk these

479
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 3: things that I'm just saying, certain things that I saw

480
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: come up. But the most important thing was this this

481
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: Google search, which have they debunked that? Because I know

482
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 3: that she was saying she opened her browser at that time,

483
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 3: but that could be bullshit, right.

484
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I could, And here's the deal. The jury

485
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: didn't buy it, she walked out. What you're saying, though,

486
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: to me is really interesting because even if he weighed

487
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: two hundred pounds and had on a jacket, it's not

488
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: going to change the time to get them to six

489
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning.

490
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not, There's no way. And on top of that,

491
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 3: he wasn't even dead, he was alive, so he got

492
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 3: brought When he got brought to the hospital, they said

493
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: his temperature was eighty degrees So according to that chart

494
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 3: I just talked about, that would bring him at eighty

495
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: degrees temperature of his body. That would bring him to

496
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 3: be outside for only an hour an hour and a half.

497
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't heard any break down the hypothermia, no one, So.

498
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: That bothers me that nobody brought that up.

499
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's interesting too, because there's all these

500
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: phone calls placed in the middle of the night between

501
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: the people and the house. There's the Google search, which

502
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: I guess we don't know the actual confirmed time of that,

503
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: but it doesn't look good either way. But I think

504
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: it is suspicious when you break down just the basic

505
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: forensics of that mix with other circumstantial things that maybe

506
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: didn't seem like that big of a deal until you

507
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: put that in perspective.

508
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: That's right. If you're researching how long it takes somebody

509
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: to die of hypothermia at two twenty seven and you

510
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: know somebody's already calling looking for him, you don't have

511
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: that long that. You don't have four hours, five hours,

512
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: six hours, you don't have it.

513
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: This is not something that a person that was planning

514
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: this would think of. I just all of the things together,

515
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 3: you just have to question it. But that would be

516
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: really My biggest question is is the timeline. The timeline,

517
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 3: I mean it's they have documentation of his temperature and

518
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 3: they know how it works. They also from twelve am

519
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: to six am that night. I look this up, so

520
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 3: this is already this is already documented. The temperature was

521
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: between It started at twenty eight degrees at twelve o'clock

522
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 3: and decrease to eighteen degrees, So it was even colder

523
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 3: than the temperature that I stated for the general times

524
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 3: for the chart. So they have these measurable things that

525
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: they could easily figure this out.

526
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: Just to remind everybody there was so much snow law

527
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: enforcement could not find the broken tail light for days,

528
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: and then they had to go back with the snowblower

529
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: to even remove all of the snow that had fallen.

530
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: So again, to your point, you're laying on ice, then

531
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: snow's covering you. With the massive chill factor of the wind,

532
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: he should have been much more frozen. Okay, well, let's

533
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: bring in Ellen Greenberg.

534
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: All right.

535
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: So when I was writing Maria and I were writing

536
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: up this case the past couple of days, we were thinking,

537
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: oh my god, there's so many similarities to Ellen Greenberg case,

538
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: which is one that we wrote up years ago. I mean,

539
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: we're Philly people, so we know all about it. I

540
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 3: actually when I rotated at the Medical Examiner's office when

541
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: I was in PA school, Galina was the chief. I

542
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 3: was there with him, and I went to Drexel and

543
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: Marlon was a resident there when I was there, So

544
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: I know these people all involved with this case, and

545
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: I know how things worked there during that time as well.

546
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: So shit showed to say the least, as far as

547
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: I'm concerned. But the similar to me are the initial

548
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 3: steps of the investigation. We're not we're not done to protocol,

549
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: and that's what's leaving all of these questions. You mentioned

550
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 3: this earlier in the episode that Marlin called the he

551
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 3: first saw that, it said it was his homicide. That

552
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: was his first impression, which if he was looking at

553
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: the body. This is why I was saying, it doesn't

554
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 3: really matter to an extent the circumstances, because if you're

555
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: a true scientist and you're just looking at what you're

556
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: looking at, you really shouldn't be able to look at

557
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 3: one body and say, oh, this could be homicide or

558
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 3: this could be suicide. If you're good, if you know

559
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: what you're doing and you're good. So his initial impression

560
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: was that it was homicide, and then people came over

561
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: and put some ideas in his head, and then he

562
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 3: was like, well, let me see if I could just

563
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: make it be a suicide then, because that's what they

564
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 3: want it to be. You know, you can't do that.

565
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 3: So he really kind of bowed down. But also he

566
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: was junior, and maybe other people I don't know who

567
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 3: was putting pressure on him or whatever, but that's that's

568
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 3: what happened, and they had go ahead.

569
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: Ray I was gonna just say, I think the similarity.

570
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: The biggest similarity with the Karen Reid case is they

571
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 2: went into it being like, she obviously must have hit him.

572
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: And I think that with Ellen Greenberg too, they just

573
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: went into it, oh, this must be a suicide. So

574
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 2: when you go into it thinking it's one tape of way,

575
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: you're not taking the protocol, the proper protocol, and the

576
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: correct steps to look at it from a non biased

577
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: angle to really determine what happened. And I think a

578
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: lot of the sloppy work came in at that point,

579
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: because you know, they go into this house, they assume

580
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 2: it's a suicide, crime scene cleanups, and they're so they've

581
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 2: never looked at things like this, And I just think

582
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 2: because of these details and the scene with Karen read,

583
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: they're overlooking a lot of really important evidence because they

584
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: already have determined that it went down this one particular way. Right.

585
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: And listen, here's what gets me when I start a

586
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: case and Nicole, I know this is and where you are.

587
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: I get it. But the nine one one call is

588
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: really important to me. And when he gains entry and

589
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: he says he has to bust in and he sees

590
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: her immediately and there's blood everywhere. As he's talking to

591
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: the dispatcher, he all of a sudden says, there's a knife.

592
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: There's a knife sticking out of her chest. Immediately he says,

593
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: she stabbed herself. Now I don't know about y'all, but

594
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: most people would not readily accept that their loved one

595
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: has killed themselves. Then he offers, almost immediately a second possibility,

596
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: because the dispatcher said she stabbed herself, and he goes,

597
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: or she fell on it. Never does he say somebody

598
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: killed her. He will offer you two possibilities. But it

599
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: didn't murder. He doesn't even want to say that out loud.

600
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: So the person that is about to marry her and

601
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: spend the rest of his life with her readily accept

602
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: she killed herself or she fell on the knife. And incidentally,

603
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: she would have had to fall on it twenty times.

604
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: Well, I just want to say, in defense of that statement,

605
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 2: I don't I have a really hard time with this

606
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: case how to feel based on everything we've covered, and

607
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: I mean, we've gone in depth about this, but a

608
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: big part of this story that nobody's talking about was

609
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 2: her history of being on various psychotic drugs and a

610
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 2: short amount of time, So I think there is a

611
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: my old possibility that he was aware of her mental state,

612
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: and that's why subconsciously he just threw that out there immediately.

613
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's unusual. So in a now one

614
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,959
Speaker 1: one call that would have leaped out at me even

615
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: before I found out about her mental state and I

616
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: and I did hear and maybe him not being able

617
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: to gain entry, maybe having a break in, maybe he

618
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: was already thinking something's not right, something's not okay, and

619
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:32,479
Speaker 1: with the door being you know, bolted, could be Yeah.

620
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: For this case, I just think Maria definitely has a point,

621
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 3: and she did have some searches that were questionable as well,

622
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: which all is to be expected when she was on

623
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 3: the she was on a crazy cocktail of medications in

624
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 3: a short period of time. There are documented cases of

625
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: people having psychosis and and killing themselves with a knife

626
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 3: and stabbing themselves to death. This is all. It's not

627
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 3: out of the realm of possibility. It's definitely rare, and

628
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 3: it's very even more rare for a woman to do it,

629
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 3: but it happens and it's documented. The whole point, though,

630
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 3: is is that the way that the investigation has been

631
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 3: handled is what's making people say, wait, maybe that's not

632
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 3: what really happened.

633
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: When you start breaking it down for people to call,

634
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: and you say, well, she was stabbed in the liver,

635
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: she was stabbed in the spine, she was stabbed in

636
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: the skull, she was stabbed in her chest, she was

637
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: stabbed in her neck. I mean that's a lot, especially

638
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 1: in an unusual section of her body to be self inflicted.

639
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: I mean, half of them were behind her.

640
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 3: This is the thing. And on my website I cover

641
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: a lot of crazy things. I mean, people cut their

642
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 3: own eyeballs out. So there's a certain point where you say, okay, people,

643
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 3: you know, people when people, when people are in a

644
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 3: psychotic fit, they do some absolutely insane things to themselves.

645
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: But I guess the biggest the biggest question is is

646
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 3: with the autopsy report. So let me just briefly go

647
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 3: over why he I guess initially when he did the autopsy,

648
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: he was just under the impression that this was this

649
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 3: was a homicidal stabbing, and then when they started bringing

650
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 3: up questions to him about it being suicide, he thought

651
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: that there was really only one of the wounds that

652
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 3: could be questionable, and that was the one to her spine,

653
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 3: and he said that he wanted to double check with

654
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: a neuropathologist to make sure that that particular injury wouldn't

655
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 3: having incapacitated her, because then otherwise she wouldn't have been

656
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 3: able to do anything else at that point. So he

657
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: and this is another break in protocol, which was a

658
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: terrible idea. So when we're working in pathology, whenever you

659
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: have a question, and it's totally normal to just call

660
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 3: any doctor in and be like, hey, could you just

661
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: look at this for a second, I'm not sure what

662
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 3: this is whatever. And what he did was he called

663
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 3: the neuropathologist that was a consultant for the Medical Examiner's

664
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: Office at the time, doctor Wark, which she's we could

665
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 3: just go on about how cool that lady is. She's

666
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 3: so old school, she's ninety six now, dude, she's just

667
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 3: like so cool. I worked with her a little bit,

668
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 3: and she's just so smart and awesome. But and she

669
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: was the person that everybody wanted to talk to when

670
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 3: there was something wrong with somebody's brain, Like she knew everything.

671
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 3: So he walked. So I know that this sounds really harsh,

672
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 3: but he had a piece of the spinal cord in

673
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: a jar and just walked over to Children's Hospital where

674
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 3: she was, which is only just up the parking lot,

675
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 3: and brought it to her and just was like, hey,

676
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 3: could you look at this for a second, and she said,

677
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 3: I don't think that that would have incapacitated her. Now,

678
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 3: the problem is is that she doesn't really remember that

679
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: transaction happening, but that was off the record anyway. She

680
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 3: doesn't have any receipts for a consult or anything like that.

681
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 3: So she's like, I don't freaking know. I'm not signing

682
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: my name to this right now. Why would you? I

683
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,919
Speaker 3: wouldn't you know? And then he was like, okay, well

684
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: doctor work said that, so I'm just gonna call it

685
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: a suicide now and just like just not thinking of

686
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 3: like the repercussions of what would happen in that case.

687
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: So then years go by and thank God for her

688
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: parents for real, they're like the ultimate people that you

689
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: look at and say, this is why you fight, because

690
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 3: you're winning. You're getting somewhere with this. But her parents

691
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 3: have been pressing it for since twenty eleven. These poor

692
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 3: people this is the Retirement Project, is trying to get

693
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 3: justice for their daughter. It's just totally horrible, but they

694
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 3: were able to get another neuropathologist to pull up the

695
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 3: case and look at it. And when this neuropathologist looked

696
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: at it, she saw some thing that wasn't mentioned in

697
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 3: the other one, which was that there was two different cuts,

698
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 3: one to the bone and ligaments and then one to

699
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: the dora mater. So the Dora matter is that's also

700
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 3: the name of my business.

701
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that.

702
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it means it means tough mother in Latin. Actually

703
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 3: it's very cool. But it's the it's the thick outer

704
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 3: laying that covers the spinal cord and also the brain.

705
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: Okay, well, see I knew that, And I thought, is

706
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: she's saying her business is a tough outer layer, like

707
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: she's tough skinned.

708
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, tough mother.

709
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she's a tough mo Yeah I dig it.

710
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: So so she was saying that there was this is

711
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: the The new neuropathologist said that there was evidence of

712
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 3: sharp force injury that was definitely caused by a sharp

713
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,479
Speaker 3: weapon and not a scalpa blade, not an autopsy tool.

714
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: And she said that the interesting thing that she noted

715
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 3: about that was that there was no hemorrhage. So when

716
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 3: you don't see hemorrhage on a wound. That means that

717
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: the heart wasn't beating and then the person was dead.

718
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 3: There could also be other reasons why, which she stated,

719
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 3: which was there was not enough time in between getting

720
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 3: that stab wound and her body to be able to

721
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 3: send blood to it before she actually died, or that

722
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 3: it didn't disrupt the tissue enough to cause it to bleed,

723
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: which I don't believe that part of it. Or the

724
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: other explanation was Ellen was dead when it happened, so

725
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 3: so there, but she didn't really She kind of back again,

726
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 3: didn't want to sign her name to that because who would.

727
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: Now let me just ask a question for clarification, you're

728
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: saying that possibly, like, let's just say she stabbed herself

729
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: so fast that one was done and then the fatal

730
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: one was done, and it could look like this one

731
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: she was not living, but the first one she could

732
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: have been. It was just so fast blood didn't have

733
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: time to get there. Yeah.

734
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 3: So when you when you make an incision like that

735
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 3: along the blood supply, think about your heart beating and stuff.

736
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 3: It's going to send blood through the circulatory system. But

737
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: when there's a disruption in the circle system, the blood

738
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 3: will start pulling in that. Just think about a sprinkler

739
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 3: system on your front lawn or something. When there's a hole,

740
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 3: it makes a puddle. So it's the same kind of theory.

741
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 3: And there's that's it's it's a stretch. It's in theory, yes,

742
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 3: but that's a stretch. And the reason is is when

743
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 3: when the fiance found her, she had the knife in

744
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: her chest, which was the last stab wound. So how

745
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: did she how was she able to pull the knife

746
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: around her chest and stab herself if she was incapacitated

747
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: or if she was already dead Like it's it's it's.

748
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 2: Just not.

749
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 3: Scientifically, it goes more towards it's not possible. But I

750
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 3: guess this other neuropathologist was giving other possibilities because think

751
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 3: about the pressure for this other neuropathologist. If she says

752
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: that there was no hemorrhage and she was dead, now

753
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 3: you automatically have a homicide investigation, and that's a lot

754
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 3: to put on one that wasn't involved in the autopsy

755
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 3: at all. Right, Well, she's just like an innocent you know.

756
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So the last placement, did it puncture the

757
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 1: heart along anything that would have caused her to bleed

758
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: out and die. Was that a fatal stab?

759
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 3: I believe that that was the fatal stab wound because

760
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 3: she she had a lot of those, particular those twenty

761
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: stab wounds that she had, plus they were superficial, a

762
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 3: lot of them, you know, they would just skim the surface.

763
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 3: And and of course the question is which you would

764
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 3: see in a typical person that gets stabbed to death.

765
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 3: It's a very it's a very violent death, and typically

766
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 3: you would see defensive wounds on their hands because they're

767
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: trying to get the person to stop. Another thing is

768
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 3: is that she didn't have any kind of significant amount

769
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: of medications or drugs in her at the time, which

770
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 3: would have made her just lay there and not fight back.

771
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 3: So that was some of the questions there as far

772
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 3: as well, why doesn't she have those? And it's it's

773
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 3: a very good question. It's not blow it off. It's

774
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: a good question.

775
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 1: And you know, Maria, there's a y'all probably know the name,

776
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: but Richard Seltzer. He said, once, autopsies give us facts,

777
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: but not the truth. And this kind of goes back

778
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 1: to what you're saying. Your mom can break this down

779
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: and tell us this would have happened with her spine,

780
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: This would have happened with her liver, This was probably

781
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 1: the fatal stab wound, because but it still doesn't give

782
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: us the truth, the truth of what actually happened, who

783
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: actually did it? No?

784
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, this is a really difficult

785
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: case because there is CCTV of the fiance in the

786
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: hallway at specific times there was a snowstorm, and on

787
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: their balcony there was no disturbed snow, so that kind

788
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 2: of disproves a break in. So you really only play

789
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: the fiance in the apartment with her as being the

790
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 2: only reasonable suspect. But I think it's really hard to

791
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 2: say because she did have the history of going through

792
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 2: something mentally, But then you know what reason would he

793
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: have had to kill her? And was their relationship bad?

794
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: It's just all over the place. And I think it's

795
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: the same with Karen Reid. I think a lot of

796
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 2: people with Karen Reid are like, oh, she was crazy,

797
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: she called him fifty times and left them those horrible voicemails,

798
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: But that doesn't make her a killer.

799
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 3: And I don't.

800
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 2: I have a hard time in this case because yeah,

801
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: we can look at the scientific facts, but it still

802
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: doesn't really make any sense what's going on.

803
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 1: I think in our business, we have all heard stories

804
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: and been involved with cases where a woman who feels

805
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: like she's doing all she can to support this man

806
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: and his children doesn't feel appreciated. He's not going to

807
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: marry her, he's not given her the life that she

808
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: feels like she deserves in some way. And sometimes they

809
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: can they can send really horrible text messages, but it

810
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: doesn't really mean they mean it. They're just trying to

811
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: get a reaction maybe from him, some attention, maybe an apology,

812
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: you know. And it seemed like their relationship, you know,

813
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: had that as part of their pattern, that they would

814
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: argue they would send these horrible messages to each other.

815
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: And you have to factor that in too. Like Nancy

816
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: Grace always says, if you want to know about a racehorse,

817
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: look at his track record. Well they did that kind

818
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: of you know, back and forth. It was not uncommon.

819
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I have a theory that when you're not

820
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: with the right significant other, it could bring out the

821
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 2: absolute worst personality treats in yourself. But I really I

822
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: think that's you know, people want to look at that

823
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: and say it's the obvious answer for both of these

824
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: cases that maybe they were going through problems, and that

825
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: seems like the most possible situation as to what went down.

826
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it doesn't necessarily

827
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: make somebody snap. It just looks bad circumstantially.

828
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 3: If these police investigations and forensic investigations were done properly,

829
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 3: we wouldn't even be sitting here right now and talking

830
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,439
Speaker 3: about this. If you think about Ellen Greenberg, like if

831
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 3: they just secured the property and treated it like a

832
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 3: crime scene and went through it slowly and didn't jump

833
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 3: the gun with the homicide and then the suicide, and

834
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 3: they brought all the evidence forth, I think that there

835
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: wouldn't be as many questions. The parents might still have

836
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 3: a hard time understanding it, but with the history of

837
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 3: the medications and the anxiety depression and the searches on

838
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 3: the internet, it might have made it easier. Also, I

839
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 3: think that with the Karen Rea case is the same thing.

840
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: If they would have treated that like a crime scene

841
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 3: and got people out of the house. I heard that

842
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 3: that house has since been sold. I heard that the

843
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 3: dog they got rid of the dog. I don't know

844
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,959
Speaker 3: what you know. I mean, like, this is why people

845
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 3: are questioning. If they just did everything by the book,

846
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 3: then nobody would even be questioning.

847
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: And that's something I preach at every academy class I

848
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: ever teach. If you are fixing to have to go

849
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 1: do a death notification, you better have all of your

850
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 1: facts before you open your mouth. You cannot go to

851
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: a family and use the word suicide. You have to

852
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 1: know for sure, provable, not speculation. You can't start talking

853
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: if you're not sure yet unless that's what you say.

854
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: You have to tell the truth. And to me, both

855
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: of these came, says her, mind boggling for all the

856
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: reasons you just said. And the number one is because

857
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: they did not treat both cases like a homicide. If

858
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 1: somebody has got a knife sticking out of them, if

859
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: somebody has got multiple injuries and laying in the snow,

860
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: you treat both like a homicide till you know different. Nicole,

861
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: we had a case that I was convinced was a homicide.

862
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: I even thought it was a homicide sexual assault. She

863
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: was found on the side of the highway. I've told

864
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: this story before, but for Nicole's purpose, I think it's

865
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: important to say it again. She only had on a

866
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 1: T shirt like a travel t shirt from a carabing

867
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: nude from the waist down, had what I thought was

868
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: road rash across her thighs and buttocks and calves. Nothing

869
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: of anything personal on her. But nowss long story short.

870
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: After the autopsy, she died a dongee fever and I

871
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: had never heard of it. I didn't know what it

872
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: would look like. I didn't have any idea since I

873
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: was not familiar how a person would react and behave.

874
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: After that understanding, we went back and went in about

875
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 1: a fifty yard radius, ended up finding her purse and

876
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 1: other belongings, including her pants and underwear. So it started

877
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: to make a lot more sense once we had that information.

878
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: But again for folks listening, the medical examiner is a

879
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: huge part of our team. They have to give us

880
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 1: information we don't know. I mean, we can tell them

881
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: facts if they ask, and we can say, hey, this

882
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: is what was found at the scene, this medication, you know,

883
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: this knife, this gun, this note, whatever. But for them

884
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: to absolutely change what they see, what they believe based

885
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: on a theory based on a statement of one person,

886
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: would be extremely unusual.

887
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 3: To me, And with this case with Ela Greeberg, especially,

888
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 3: the family considers themselves to have this big win to yesterday.

889
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 3: I believe it was. It was some one day this

890
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 3: week that doctor Marlon Osborne said that he no longer

891
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 3: believes that she killed herself, and now that he's seen

892
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 3: new information, he is willing to change it. He doesn't

893
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 3: believe that it's suicide anymore. Now that doesn't mean that

894
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 3: he thinks it's homicide. It just means I feel like

895
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 3: he would change it to undetermined. That would be in

896
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 3: his best interest, to be honest with you. But unless

897
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: because I don't, there has to be one of these

898
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 3: people that's going to pull the trigger and say this

899
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 3: is the wound that caught that I could prove that

900
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 3: she was murdered. And I don't know who's going to

901
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 3: say sign off on that, to be honest, but she

902
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 3: he's not a doctor in Pennsylvania anymore, and he's not

903
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 3: he does not work for the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office,

904
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 3: so he can't change it.

905
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: That's right. He doesn't have the authority anymore. And you know,

906
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: we've got the same thing in the Karen Reid trial.

907
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: If the prosecution did not have enough for murder the

908
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: first time, they don't have it now. And if they're

909
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 1: trying to get her on, you know, a lesser charge

910
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: leaving the scene of an accident. Okay, but again for

911
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,720
Speaker 1: John O'Keefe's family, that's not good enough.

912
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be satisfied with that at all. And you know,

913
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 3: I think a lot when you were talking with Maria

914
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 3: about the social media and stuff, a lot of it

915
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 3: has to do with the fact that he's a cop

916
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 3: and cop versus people. You know, I'm usually one hundred

917
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 3: percent pro cop. Honestly I am. I'm married to a fireman.

918
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 3: We're just like in the same kind of family. I

919
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 3: just don't I don't like the way this smells like.

920
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 3: It's just it's something's not sitting right with me about it.

921
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: Nothing about it makes any sense to your point that

922
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: first trial, that place should have been filled with fellow officers.

923
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: It wasn't. To your point. When you know, this type

924
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,280
Speaker 1: of event happens, whether it's a horrible accident off duty

925
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: or an in the line of duty death, they all

926
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: show up. In this case, the police department that had

927
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: the case did not treat it like it was a

928
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: fellow officer. Not in any way.

929
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: No, And it's you know, it's it's hard to ignore

930
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 2: things like that when other aspects of the case are

931
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 2: pretty fishy, you know.

932
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: And the thing is, all three of us have children,

933
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: and I think that when you start looking at your

934
00:55:55,920 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: child and you say, well, this thinks it's a victory

935
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: to get suicide removed, that's a victory. Oh my god.

936
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:14,760
Speaker 1: That means somebody killed her. I mean, there's no other option.

937
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: It's not natural, it's not accident. I mean, this is

938
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: what we're left with. And to me, that's the most

939
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: gut wrenching victory I've ever heard of.

940
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: Well, and that's the city settling too, because a judge

941
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 2: had just recently said that the medical examiner and the

942
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 2: lead detective we're going to be taking the stand if

943
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 2: this went to trial, and then all of a sudden

944
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 2: they were willing to settle and agree to reopen the case.

945
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 2: So I think they've been going through heartache for fourteen

946
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: years and it is really sad for this family that

947
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 2: they just don't have any closure. And I think that

948
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: John O'Keefe's family is going to be in a similar

949
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 2: situation whether Karen Reid is convicted or not too, because.

950
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: It's it's not going to be murder, which is what

951
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,280
Speaker 1: they believe happened, so they're not going to get justice

952
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 1: and both families to me, are just in a horrific

953
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 1: no win situation. But listen now, I ain't going to

954
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: end on this sad note. So, Nicole, what is the

955
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: craziest thing you ever pulled out of somebody's body, living

956
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:22,479
Speaker 1: or dead.

957
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 3: Well, what's interesting about my job, which I really didn't

958
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 3: describe to your listeners, is that so as a PA,

959
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 3: we typically work in the hospital, and we also do

960
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 3: forensics too, and we do autopsies in the hospital, but

961
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 3: we also do surgical pathology, So that's all of the

962
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 3: injuries that happen to people when they're still alive and

963
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 3: they go into the hospital. And I always tell the

964
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 3: stories of the foreign bodies that I get are always

965
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,919
Speaker 3: the most interesting in the surgical pathology lab, mostly things

966
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 3: that are removed from men's rectums and the most the

967
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 3: most interesting one I had was a half eat and

968
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 3: pair out of a guy's But but we definitely get

969
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 3: other crazy things too.

970
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: Maria, your mama is fun. She is fun at a

971
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: dinner party, isn't she.

972
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: Oh, you have no idea. It's kind of why we

973
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: started the podcast because people people were pretty, you know,

974
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 2: intrigued by what our family dinner table conversation was. And

975
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, you really have no idea, and now the

976
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 2: podcast is a little bit of insight into what that

977
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 2: looks like.

978
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 3: Still scaled back.

979
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: I had to call your mama and I had to

980
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: tell her, listen, I have a it's almost like a

981
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: lazy Susan. This beautiful bookcase in my office and it

982
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: turns and so the interns. You can pick any book there.

983
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: There's Paul Hole's book, and you know, Matt Murphy's book,

984
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: and a lot of Ann Ruhl's stuff. Enjoy yourself, please.

985
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: I turned to finish is putting together a Monck crime scene,

986
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: like a little mini thing for her that I do.

987
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: Before I could turn back around, she already had for

988
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: whatever reason, she picked the small, beautiful pink book with

989
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: the beautiful girl on the front. She screamed and dropped it,

990
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, sugar, that's your first lesson

991
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: Welcome to crime scene. And that book is so good.

992
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: And the most important thing is you got a lot

993
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: of the pictures from a lot of your listeners.

994
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, from our listeners and followers on Instagram. Every

995
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 3: single one of the pictures in the book. Is user

996
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 3: submitted over one hundred cases of me just you know,

997
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 3: putting a story on Instagram and saying, hey, do you

998
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 3: have hemorrhoids? Are you willing to share a photo? Please

999
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 3: send it to me? And then I would get twenty

1000
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: photos of people's butts.

1001
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:55,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess who had to sort through all those

1002
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 2: pictures with me?

1003
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 1: Maria. I tell you I love her. I mean I do.

1004
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: I love her, but I'm like, you know, every now

1005
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: and then we just have to talk about puppies and

1006
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: something else. I mean Farris Will's fireworks something. But she's

1007
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: so good. Both of you are so good. And when

1008
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: I said the gift of the second generation, I'm not

1009
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: kidding Maria to have you there, somebody that she knows

1010
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: she can trust, Somebody that understands her vision, somebody that

1011
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: is so helpful, whether it's the photography or the internet

1012
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: stuff or helping write, you know, for the whole multiple

1013
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: podcasts and instagrams. It's a gift. You are a flat

1014
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: just blessing to her. That's all there is to it.

1015
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: And Nicole, you know, I say it a lot and

1016
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to say it again, but I love to

1017
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: kill a Mockingbird, And in that book there's a line

1018
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: and it says, some of us are chosen for the

1019
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 1: unpleasant jobs. Not everybody can do what you do, but

1020
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: what you do is so important at that hospital to

1021
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: give those answers and for both of y'all, and I

1022
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: mean this sincerely, to have such a positive and happy outlook.

1023
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: I admire it. And if y'all got any secrets to that,

1024
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: please share. But I do think it's important because if

1025
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to get this type of information, I

1026
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 1: would much rather people have it from you. You know,

1027
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: where you understand it. You're able to explain it in

1028
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 1: ways that most people can't, and it doesn't bother you.

1029
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you're one of those people dead as part

1030
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: of it. Let's talk about it.

1031
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean me and Maria's have a very very

1032
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 3: interesting life. And I don't know how much you know

1033
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 3: too much about us, but I had Maria when I

1034
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 3: was fifteen years old. Yep, I knew that We've grown

1035
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 3: up in a very unusual mother daughter relationship. More like,

1036
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 3: I mean, she's she My brother was five years old

1037
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 3: when she was born, you know, so it just we

1038
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 3: all grew up as siblings kind of but also she's

1039
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 3: my daughter. It was just a very close relationship and

1040
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 3: that's that's why we. I obviously we connect so much

1041
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 3: because we talk. This is we're literally just recording our

1042
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 3: conversations on the podcast because we every single day. It's

1043
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 3: like we're news junkies, right, so every day did you

1044
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 3: see what happened? Oh my god, the plane crash, did

1045
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 3: this that, It's it's just all the time. So we thought, okay, well,

1046
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 3: like let's just let everybody listen to us talk.

1047
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's the first part of February, so

1048
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: we're not even really in to twenty twenty five yet.

1049
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: And I think your story is powerful also to remind

1050
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: people listen, even if you do things out of order

1051
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: to other people, you can still do them. Oh yes,

1052
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: you had her at fifteen, you dropped out of high school,

1053
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: but maybe you weren't done. You figured out a way

1054
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: to get your college degree, to get that master's degree,

1055
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: to get your board certifications, and look, that's unbelievable. So

1056
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: instead of saying, well, you know, i'm a mom, Now

1057
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: that's what I'm gonna do. That's it. You got some

1058
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: help from your grandparents and you you know, you just

1059
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 1: said Hey, I'm gonna do the best I can, not

1060
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 1: just for me, but for her too. And I think

1061
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: that is one of the best things to come out

1062
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 1: of this podcast tonight. Yeah.

1063
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 3: And I am a really big person that always says that,

1064
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 3: even though that this is my career and I love

1065
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 3: it and I'm so passionate about it, my number one

1066
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 3: thing is actually my family and being a mom, and

1067
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 3: that always takes priority over all of it, you know.

1068
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 3: But I feel like there's a lot My husband and

1069
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 3: I always talk about this. There's twenty four hours in

1070
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 3: a day. There's just a lot of time people waste,

1071
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 3: and I try to utilize it a lot.

1072
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: Well, I think you just said the ticket. I think

1073
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 1: when your priorities are straight and you're doing what you

1074
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: love and you're surrounded by the people you love, what

1075
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: else could there be? Honey?

1076
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And Maria was just just She's just a blessing

1077
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 3: of a child.

1078
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 2: Just very you both have me blushing, you know, I

1079
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 2: believe that you can say, really, she just just the

1080
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 2: easiest kid that she was.

1081
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 3: You know, it was a terrible situation to get pregnant

1082
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 3: when I was in ninth grade, So she was the

1083
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 3: best case scenario of that just always very easy going.

1084
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 3: And everybody loves Maria. Everybody that meets her she is,

1085
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 3: She's just flowing all the time.

1086
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 1: Well, I called her a gift, and I mean it,

1087
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: There's no doubt about it.

1088
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 2: Isn't this a confidence boost?

1089
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: Well? I appreciate y'all being with me tonight. I appreciate

1090
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 1: y'all being own Zone seven, but I appreciate y'all being

1091
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: a part of mine. I know I can call either

1092
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: one of you if I have questions or concerns or

1093
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: just curious about a case, and I appreciate that absolutely.

1094
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Mac for having us on.

1095
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: Oh this ain't gonna be the last time, y'all. Y'all.

1096
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

1097
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: always do with a quote. When I see a large

1098
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: group of people, I wonder how many of them are

1099
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: going to require an autopsy? George Carlin, Yes, I love

1100
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 1: George Carltt I do too. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this

1101
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 1: is Zone seven.