WEBVTT - Internet Hate Machine May Be Over, But The Conversation Continues 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:05.520 Welcome to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. Sophie. Thank 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:12.000 you for being here. It is been such a long, exciting, fun, challenging, 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.680 lovely couple of months covering all of these topics with you. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.640 Today we are wrapping everything up. Can you believe it? 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.680 I really can't. It feels like it feels like it's 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.360 been like we've been doing this for so long, but 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.600 it feels so short. At the same time, I agree. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:32.519 I think it kind of makes sense to take a 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.640 pause and sort of wrap up where we've been in 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:37.880 the last four months because we've actually covered a lot. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.560 So for folks who are just joining us, I hope 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:42.560 this is not your first episode because it is also 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.280 the last, but just to sort of recap where we've been. 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:50.480 We started the season talking about Adrian Richards and dongle Gate. 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:53.360 I really wanted to start there because for me, that 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.120 was when this kind of problem of targeted, coordinated online 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.680 harassment of women, particularly black women, really got on my radar. 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.560 We talked a bit about the end Father's Day campaign, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.200 like a four chan eight chan troll campaign to make 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:12.479 black feminists look bad. Talked about Leslie Jones SNL actor, 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:17.040 comedian extraordinaire and the horrific harassment campaign that she faced 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.319 by my Loanapolis but dressed by none other than Steve Bannon. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.560 We talked about elected officials after the mid terms and 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:29.080 how they're facing coordinated online harassment pactics that keep them 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.720 from being able to run for office and sort of 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:35.959 their communities. We talked about Elon Musk. That's right, there 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:37.679 was a time where he did not own Twitter. It 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:39.880 doesn't that seem like forever ago. Well, we talked a 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.840 bit about how he is empowering extremists like Kanye West 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:45.960 and Nick Quentes online. Although, by the way, did you 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:51.800 see that Nick Quintez was rebanned on Twitter? So cool? 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.760 It's almost like content moderation is a thing, and there 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:58.840 was a reason why he was banned in the first place, 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.320 and unbanning him, just to reban him a couple of 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.240 days later is like an exercise in futility. And you 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.440 could have saved all that time if you just had 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.400 a little bit of humility coming into Twitter mode. You 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:10.840 know what, I won't don't don't let me go off 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.480 on a rant on Elon Musk. The point is and 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:20.720 the unbanded thank you. We talked about the director of 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.600 the film Cuties, and how there is still an open 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.240 court proceeding against her because one guy in Texas just 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.040 won't let it go. We talked about Shay Moss and 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.480 Ruby Freeman election workers who were targeted by Trump and 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:36.840 his creonies, which, by the way, did you see that 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.200 Biden awarded them just a presidential medal? Okay, I thought 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.280 it was. I was gonna say the Presidential Medal of Freedom, 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:44.280 but I wasn't sure if that's a different thing. Just 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.240 a casual presidential Yeah, just a casual presidential medal. One 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.959 thing I did love about them getting that medal is 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.120 we talked a bit about this in the episode, about 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.200 how like one reason why I feel like they were 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.520 targeted specifically was that they know they look like they 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.359 have a very specific kind of look, and I loved 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.520 that when they were on stage accepting this very important 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.440 metal from President Biden, they kept the same look, the 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.839 same hairstyle, the same fashions, And I was like, yes, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.480 they are not they are They look like themselves And 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.760 I was really hardened to see them showing up looking 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.720 like themselves, not in hiding, not changing the way they 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.640 look to appease racists and sexists and extremists, but like 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.000 themselves on stage accepting a presidential medal. Really, it felt 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:31.760 kind of like a full circle moment for the show, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.880 to be honest with you, Yeah, for sure. And then 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.240 we wrapped things up talking about critical race theory ce 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.960 Celia Lewis and kind of the state of our education 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.000 when it comes to this kind of thing. And then 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:47.160 lastly we talked about my girl, Foma Zoma and how 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:49.720 even as someone who is trying to right some of 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.880 these wrongs within our broken technology ecosystem, she was punished 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.080 for it. And honestly, that did seem like a kind 0:03:56.080 --> 0:04:00.520 of a a good place to leave things, because there 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.480 are so many people who are trying to make our 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.960 digital world and our technological world better and safer and 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.160 more inclusive and less broken. But we're never going to 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.440 get anywhere as long as those voices continue to be 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.640 punished and targeted for the work of trying to make 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.160 those spaces better for all of us. It's it's so 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.839 fascinating to go through what we've discussed and to see 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.159 all these different elements still in play currently in so 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:32.760 many different stories. Uh specifically, when Robert and I were talking, 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.360 Robert Evans and I were talking about Andrew Tait and 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:42.400 how he got so popular. There's so much Steve Bannon 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.680 and I g e in there. There's so much of that, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.400 and it's it's really just a sight to see that. 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.520 We're like, if you if we had taken just you know, 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.640 a couple of seconds to actually not move on to 0:04:54.720 --> 0:05:00.880 the next thing, then maybe more bad things would stop happening. Absolutely, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:02.840 I mean the the Andrew Tates stuff. First of all, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:04.880 I'm so glad that y'all that y'all talked about that. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:10.279 I've seen folks championing that episode everywhere, and I think 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.200 it's I think it's important to talk about who empowered 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.640 these specific people to be able to have the platforms 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.000 that I have now and asking some questions about, Yeah, 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.080 when we saw when Steve Bannon was empowering folks like 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.920 my Janopolis and allowing him to harass people and abuse people, 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.880 why like like, where were people in power being like, actually, 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.640 maybe we should talk about what this means and the implications. 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.160 And now we have Andrew Tate, Like, do you want 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.839 to get Andrew tapes? That's how you get Andrew Tates. 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.520 So these are just some of the stories that I 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.880 chose to tell for this series. But by no means 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.479 are these the only women who have stories like this 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.120 that are out there. The research is super clear that 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.120 this problem is systemic. It is not individual. It is 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.279 not just a handful or a dozen or two you know, 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:05.640 individual women who have faced individual harassment campaigns. It is 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.839 a systemic, deep cultural problem, and it comes with consequences. 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.400 Black women are disproportionately targeted for things like harassment and 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.760 disinformation and hate speech online, and the kinds of disinformation 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.000 campaigns that target us, as we've demonstrated in this series, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.400 often traffic in racialized and gendered stereotypes and tropes about 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.320 Black women. And the research is really clear also that 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.440 when this happens in digital spaces, it has very real 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.440 world consequences. Let's start by looking at some of the 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.039 consequences for the Black women who are targeted. When racialized 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:40.200 gender disinformation and harassment festers and thrives online, people become 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.080 a lot less likely to trust Black women as leaders, 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:46.159 and in turn, those Black women are less likely to 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:50.200 be civically engaged because they know that even to casually 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.680 participate in civic discourse is to risk becoming a target 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.240 of dis harassment, and that is, honestly, something that really 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.200 stands out to me about all of these stories is 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.360 that how in almost every instance, these are women who 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.280 were being punished and targeted for just merely participating in 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.720 public and civic life. You know, they were doing their jobs, 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.840 they were speaking their minds, they were making films, making art, 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.280 they were serving their community or running for office or 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.679 helping people vote. You know, these are just the stories 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.040 that I decided that I wanted to tell in this 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.600 limited series. But there are so many more that peop 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:28.080 will never hear. For every you know, Hollywood actress who 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.680 is speaking up about being the target at this kind 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.400 of harassment, there's a black woman, or a black girl, 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.320 or a black transperson or a black queer person whose 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.600 story we will never hear, who will not have the 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.160 kind of resources to speak up and have somebody do anything. 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.360 And so, you know, as as important as the stories 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.560 that we heard this season are, I think it's important 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.280 to also just honor the fact that there are so 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.280 many more that will never hear and we should make 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.280 space for those stories as well. Like you shouldn't have 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.720 to be Megan Markle or Leslie Jones to get your 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:00.840 story told. You shouldn't have to stand on a stage 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.600 next to President Biden to have people take this seriously 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.000 and understand what you've been through when it comes to 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:07.880 this kind of thing. And I think that we can 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.800 really draw a straight line from those kinds of attacks 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.240 to our current political landscape. You know, when people with 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.960 power watched black women be targeted for coordinated online harassment 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:22.040 and abuse just for doing their jobs and basically did nothing, 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:24.840 they basically set the stage for the same kind of 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.360 attacks to be used on different people, many of whom 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.600 are still marginalized people. You know, they're still LGBTQ folks 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.920 or folks who are otherwise marginalized. But it's the same 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.240 kind of attacks that are meant to keep them from 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.800 showing up in public and civic life as well. A 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:40.439 good friend of mine to that Harry who was just 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.720 kind of a general brilliant tech troublemaker. She argues that 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.080 when black women speak up about the abuses and harm 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.120 that we are facing online and people with power don't listen, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.400 that harm is then allowed to be experienced by others. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.560 She writes, harmful behavior toward black women isn't enough to 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.760 inspire change. Until others are harmed, but the original harms 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.280 are often lost by journalists task with covering tech. The 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.760 power and rhetoric that went unchecked then becomes common, and 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.400 the tactics used against black women for lulls become weapons 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.680 used in the conspiracies to stabilizing the very nature of truth, 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.400 from the swarming of victims, to posing as black women, 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:20.760 to destabilizing communities or countries. I would add democracies into 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.760 that list, and I would also add that that is 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.040 exactly what we are seeing today. I wanted to focus 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.680 on Black women for this series because so many of 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.439 the stories of our harassment are sort of lesser known 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.760 and get less attention. But as Todet argues in that 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:39.560 piece for Wired, when those stories go undealt with and unexamined, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.480 they are allowed to fester and become everyone's problem. And 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.840 I think that's where we are right now. So what 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.120 does this look like out in the real world. There 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.600 are so many examples, but I wanted to talk about 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.520 a couple of specific ones. First is the abortion and 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.560 reproductive justice advocacy space. Some of y'all might know that 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.840 I cut my teeth in the abortion rights movement, working 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.480 out planned parenthood, and I'm still sort of in that 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.960 space more broadly, kind of more on the abortion advocacy 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.439 and tech digital security intersection. UM, but I can tell 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.680 you that right now, coordinated harassment and online abuse campaigns 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.320 are threatening people, the vast majority of whom are women 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.280 and women of color doing abortion advocacy work. And if 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:24.319 you care about a future where abortion access is protected 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:29.599 and people actually have true, meaningful reproductive justice and bodily autonomy, 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:33.560 you need to care about what's happening to women online. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.480 Because the women who are abortion providers, abortion advocates, folks 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.880 fighting for abortion access, those are the same women being docked, 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:45.319 being smeared, being lied about, being attacked online, and also 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.800 facing cybersecurity threats. And so if you care about abortion 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.520 access and protecting abortion access, which we all should, you 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.360 need to care about what's happening to women online. Another 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.240 one is the suppressing and silencing of survivors. You know, 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.320 the tactics that we talked about on Internet Hate Machine 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.040 are the very same tactics that we've been seeing to 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.760 silence people who speak up about abuse. Anybody who posted 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.679 about the Johnny Depp amber her defamation trial, for instance, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.959 probably has experienced like a little bit of what I'm 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.760 talking about firsthand, where reporters, Yeah, I mean you like 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:22.160 I it's it's wild to me because, like I they 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.320 kind of got me on this one. Like I saw 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.920 how clearly it was that people who stood up for 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:34.319 survivors in that instance, how quickly and how obviously coordinated 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.720 it was to have people be like, here's all the 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.320 reasons why you're wrong, Like no, like you're like like 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.240 a swarm of people online and so that like I 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.360 was like, well, I'm not gonna wade into this because 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.480 I don't want to deal with that. And it has 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.200 such a clear silencing impact where people don't feel first 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.640 of all, survivors don't feel like they can speak up, 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.200 and then anybody who would support that survivor or be 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.880 an ally to that survivor doesn't feel comfortable speaking up. 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.320 So it has it's this real obvious intentional silencing. Yeah, 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.400 I think what you said there is extremely important to 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.160 point out the word coordinated, because these weren't just one 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.720 off people that had an opinion about something and we're 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.680 we're trolling you. This was a coordinated effort and was 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:18.840 in mass correct. That's so important, Like it's not just 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.560 one or two people being like, actually, I don't agree. 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.440 It is a coordinated effort where those those really fun 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:34.040 for me to see you two, Actually I disagree. Actually 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.880 I could do an impression of a well actually guy 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:43.280 in my sleep because I deal with them all day long. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.040 And then what's so interesting in the case of like 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.240 suppressing and silencing survivors is it's not just the survivor 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.440 or the person who would support them, it's also you know, 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.200 reporters are or journalists who are just trying to provide 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.480 coverage of what's happened. A lot of reporters who worked 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.160 on the beat of covering, you know, survivors of abuse 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.480 recently have talked about how they too become targets of 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.840 coordinated harassment. And so, if you have an ecosystem where 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:17.079 reporters can't even provide balanced, fair, accurate reporting of what's happening, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.040 you have a real problem. And it's clearly meant to 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.240 suppress survivors. It's clearly meant to silent survivors who would 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:34.760 be speaking up against powerful abusers. When you look at 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.760 attacks on educators and lgbt Q youth and educators, UM 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.080 you know, I believe that Twitter accounts like libs of TikTok, 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.480 which target teachers and youth perceived as lgbt hugh or 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.000 allies to the LGBTQ community. I believe that that account 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.200 and accounts like it, saw that you could get a 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.960 whole lot of traction and attention and engagement from an 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.079 audience if you use the same kind of tactics that 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.960 we've talked about on this series to target marginalized folks. 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.800 You know, and just like so many of the stories 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.440 that we've talked about, from Cecilia Lewis's story to End 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.360 Father's Day to the director of Cutie's Uh, they saw 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.160 that you can get actual like traction and media support 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.920 for doing this right, So Tucker Carlson might signal boost you, 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.920 the mainstream media might start platforming you and your cause 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.440 in this kind of you know, both sides framing as 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.120 if it's a reasonable position to hear from both people 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:28.920 who are just trying to live their lives and the 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.400 people coordinating to trying to try to stop them from 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.760 doing that. And we're at this point where people are 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.240 doing these types of things in order to get attention 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.440 from the Tucker Carlson's of the world. They're they're being 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.720 as big as ass hats as they could possibly be 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.760 in order to get that ten seconds on his show, 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.600 and he rewards them, He rewards that behavior. And it's bullshit. 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:57.680 It's bullshit. And what's worse, it's like it's this self. 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:03.280 It's this cycle where people use a dishonest tactic, they 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.720 get engagement and coverage from it, and it just incentivizes 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:09.520 others to do the same. So it really when I 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.280 when I I mean, I'm sure folks are sick of 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.680 me using the word ecosystem, but when I say ecosystem, 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.880 I mean ecosystem that it it. It feeds off one 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.120 feeds off of the other, and it kind of will 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.720 keep going and keep going until somebody stops the cycle. 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:24.320 And I feel like that's where we're at. We're just 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:30.400 seeing people weaponize disingenuous, racist, sexist attacks and attacks on 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.120 LGBT hugh folks, and it is a cycle. It is 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.480 a cycle that is going to I think, make us 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.920 all worse for the wear. You know, when when this 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.280 is what gets engagement and eyeballs and clicks and attention, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.840 you know, not only is it dishonest and homophobic and 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.640 sexist and racist and all of that stuff. It absolutely is, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:53.080 but it also incentivizes people not doing the thoughtful coverage 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.320 that they should. It makes it eat that much easier 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.840 to slap together a story that's like, oh cop die 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.760 is from looking at fent at all and running with that, 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.440 it creates an ecosystem where there is not a it's 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.440 not incentivized to do thoughtful work that actually helps us 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:14.080 get smarter and understand issues. Yeah, I mean, you said 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:20.320 all the words. So what's really kind of scary to 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.800 me is the way that these kinds of folks are 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:28.520 using these tactics to amass political powers. As we heard 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.880 in that story about Cecilia Lewis, it's not just about 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:35.560 targeting individuals. It is about amassing electoral power political power, 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.720 and in a lot of cases, I am sad to 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.360 say that it is kind of working. You know, while 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.280 we're all focused on national politics and these like big 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:49.680 flashy presidential races, extremists can buttress these kinds of online 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.320 hate campaigns into far right takeovers of school boards and 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:58.360 local offices. And I think that it is scary how 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.880 effective it can be. Also, it is scary how I 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.320 hate to. I mean, I know, I don't hate to 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.439 do it. It is scary to me how mainstream media 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:09.919 will just help them do this. We we were to 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.560 the point where, you know, as someone will say, oh, 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.160 I'm a concerned parent, and it's like, actually, you are 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:18.560 running a campaign. I got, like a astroturfed campaign to 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.240 take over a school board, so you're not just a 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:25.119 concerned parent, like you know. The way that mainstream media 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.800 will help bad actors and extremists do their work for 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.360 them is really appalling and I think a pretty scary 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.960 consequence of letting all of this stuff go unchecked. And 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.000 I think that it's critical that we really understand kind 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.240 of what has been normalized as a part of our discourse. 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:45.800 You know, disinformation, online abuse, harassment, and hate. That's not discourse. 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.920 And when we allow it to be treated like discourse, 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.159 we all lose out, except for bad actors. Sorry, I 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:53.720 did I say that a lot, but that's the only 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:57.200 one I canna use. Yes, if you're still if you're 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.320 playing the drinking game, you're probably tanked by now, uh It. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.760 It is bad actors and tech billionaires who win while 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.399 we all lose out because they get engagement and they 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.120 get richer. So the real question is do we want 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:10.960 to have a media ecosystem where the rest of us 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.160 are paying such a high cost so that Mark Zuckerberg 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.480 or Elon Musk can add another comma to their bank account. 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.679 I would argue no. I would argue no. So that 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.240 leads us to our kind of like big So what 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.600 question of the of the series, which is what needs 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.159 to be done? The first thing that I think absolutely 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.800 needs to be done is that institutions and people with 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.880 power I'm talking about like elected officials and like government 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.240 folks need to listen and do something. Here's things get 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.080 a little bit squishy on this one. I know that 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.879 one route that people talk a lot about is you 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.159 know that we need more policy solutions, Like governments and 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.800 elected officials need to be doing more on the policy front. 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.040 So I a thousand percent agree that in the United States, 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.879 even just taking this seriously as a problem will be 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.280 a step in the right direction. My hope and my 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.119 sense is that you know, this might be changing a 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.520 little bit. Like I think there was a time back 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.800 when when you talked about online harassment, like I always 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.080 had to call law enforcement for online harassment against myself, 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.840 and this was like many many many years ago before 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.680 we were having lots of conversations about what harassment looked 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.920 like in the Impacts, and I remember tell like, the 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.200 thing that was very scary was like I was pretty 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:28.800 used to getting people saying mean things to me, racial slurs, 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:30.399 to me, this is out of time, and I was 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.639 like really trying to build up my career as like 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.920 a person who had opinions in public. And the thing 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.440 that was scary was that I used to live in 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.760 an apartment that shared a wall with like a popular 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.040 bar here in d C. It's no longer there, but 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:46.800 it was like a very popular bar, and I used 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.159 to always talk about how like, oh, I'm going to 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:50.800 this bar again, going to this bar again, because it 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.919 was like kind of my spot. And somebody tweeted at 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.399 me that they knew my address because they knew that 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.040 I lived next door to this bar, and that was 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:03.440 very different then you know, someone calling me a slur 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.159 or someone being mean to me online like this person 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:13.520 accurately safety issue, yes, And so I remember calling my 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.919 parents and my my dad was like, we need to 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.639 get you a taser. Okay, that was his, that was his, 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:20.560 you know, and I was I was pretty young. It 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.560 was like this was like I was very early career, 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:25.680 I guess, I would say. And I ended up calling 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.359 the police, and the police told me, like, what you 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:30.840 need to do is just stay off the internet. And 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.040 I remember thinking, what you're basically telling me a new 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:39.119 cops are so bad at everything. What that basically means 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.440 is like start a new career, go back to college. 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:46.159 Because at that time, my whole, my entire career trajectory 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.879 had been around, you know, making a public name for 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.919 myself as somebody who had like opinions in public, and 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.600 so that like I had done a lot of work online, 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.200 like you can't really do that in the modern era 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:02.080 that an online presence is. So basically he just showed 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.680 me how much this person did not understand the impact 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.320 and the fact that if I disclosed my computer that 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.600 this threat wasn't going to go away. So I do 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:12.960 think that things are changing in the sense that like 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.280 people with power are perhaps taking it a bit more seriously. 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:17.960 I would hope that if I had to call law 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.919 enforcement today, I would get a different a different answer. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.960 And so I do think that we have gotten to 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.399 a little bit of a place where institutions are taking 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.239 it more seriously when it comes to whether or not 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.520 I think that governments should be pushing for an advocating 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.280 specific policy. I gotta be honest that this is really 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.800 like not my ministry. I know tons of really smart 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.800 people in the tech public policy space who are doing 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.560 a lot of advocacy around this to get governments to 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:49.080 adopt better policies around tech regulation. I don't want to 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.120 throw any cold water on any of that, but personally, 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:54.560 it is just like not my area of expertise on 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.320 how this could be done. And I know from like 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.240 being in these spaces that there is not even necessarily 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.959