1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our discussion of stolen 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: heads and stolen brains. That's right. If you didn't listen 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: to part one, go back listen to part one, because 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: that's where we initially get into it, and we talked 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: about like some ancient ideas about what the brain did 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: and uh, then we get into some examples of of 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: brains that have been preserved, uh, consensually, and then get 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: a little bit into the theft. And we're gonna get 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: more into the theft here in this episode, and then 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: towards the end we're gonna get into some of the 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: mythology and folklore of disembodied heads. That's right. So at 15 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: the end of the last episode, we were talking about 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: the theft of the skull of the Austrian classical composer 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Franz Joseph Haydn, which was stolen by phrenologists who clung 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: to the mistaken belief that Haydn's musical genius would somehow 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: be inscribed in the bone of his cranium. But Hayden 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: isn't the only figure like this. There there are other 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: figures in history with some kind of reputation for genius 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: of one kind or another, who have had their heads 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: or their brains stolen in the hope that these remnants 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,639 Speaker 1: would somehow explain to science what made them so smart. 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: And of course, in the case of phrenology, this was 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: an utterly hopeless endeavor, just because phrenology is total quack 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: pseudoscience end to end. But this has also happened even 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: in ages of more legitimate neuroscience, and still maybe doesn't 29 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: tell us as much as the people who stole these 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: brains hoped that it would. So I want to talk 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: about another famous stolen head that is not even for 32 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: any pretense of neuroscience or any other type of research. 33 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the head of Jeremy Bentham. 34 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: H So you know Jeremy Bentham best for I don't 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: know what do people know him best for these days? 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: Maybe for the for the idea of the Panopticon, which 37 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: he was a promoter of. That would be where our 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: listeners might have heard his name on this show before. Yeah, 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: Jeremy Bentham was a highly influential eighteenth and nineteenth century 40 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: philosopher and social reformer from England, and he's usually thought 41 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: of as one of the founders of liberalism and one 42 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: of the modern founders of the utilitarian theory of ethics. So, 43 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: in other words, right and wrong would be determined not 44 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: by what the king says, or what the Bible says, 45 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: or not by any deontological duty, but by what course 46 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: of action would provide the greatest happiness to the greatest 47 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: number of people. And Bentham is kind of interesting because 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: if you read through a collection of his opinions and 49 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: arguments today, it is this strange mixture of things that 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: for the time were extremely radical, progressive and by our 51 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: modern ethics admirable, but also things that are bizarrely horrifying. 52 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: So so, for example, you know, he was in favor 53 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: of total political equality for women and the decriminalization of homosexuality. 54 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: But he also did not like the idea of privacy. 55 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: He thought that was a bad concept, and of course 56 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: this is exemplified in the idea of the panopticon, in 57 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: which prisoners have no privacy or and and do not 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: know if if the gaze of the like the the 59 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: lone observation tower if they are looking at them in 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: any given moment, you know, right, So he would dig 61 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: where we are now in some respects. Oh my god, 62 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: Jeremy Bentham. I would love to know Jeremy Bentham's thoughts 63 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: on the modern digital landscape. But anyway, that the relevant 64 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: part of the Jeremy Bentham story today is that his 65 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: head still exists today above ground in a grotesque, incompetently 66 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: mummified form, and and it keeps getting stolen. I was 67 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: reading a piece about this that was a transcript of 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: a CBC radio piece which featured an interview with the 69 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: Subadra Dos, who was a curator of collections at University 70 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: College London. The interviewer was named Carol Off and this 71 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: CBC piece includes some excellent biographical tidbits right at the 72 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: top about Bentham's weird and interesting personality apart from his 73 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: politics and his public work. For example, it says that 74 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: Bentham had a walking stick that he called Dapple, he 75 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: had a teapot that he referred to as Dicky, and 76 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: he had an elderly cat that was named the Reverend 77 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: Sir John Langborne. Oh that's that's I don't know if 78 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: that's a good cat name. That's too human. I think 79 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: it's funny when a dog has a very human name. 80 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: And I haven't made my mind up about cats yet. 81 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: I think, I guess I assume that's funny. I find 82 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: it cats work best when they have food names, you know, Oh, okay, yeah, 83 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: biscuit or mochi or pound cake or um yeah, really 84 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: anything rabby oli. I mean, you can go go crazy 85 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: with it, but generally speaking, yes, something kind of cute 86 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: and foods. He works well with cats. I find I'm 87 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: glad that we've all learned that one day you plan 88 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: to eat a cat. Well, I mean it would really 89 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: if that were the case, and it's not, then we 90 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: would the feeling would be mutual between me and the cats. 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: So I think the cat would respect it. Oh yeah, 92 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: if we were appreciating game, is that what they say? Yeah, totally, 93 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: if we were small enough our cats what heat does? Yeah? Um. 94 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, I thought that was a pretty good window 95 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: into his personality. And uh. And so Bentham apparently had 96 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: express wishes for what would be done to his remains 97 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: in the event of his death, and they fall along 98 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: some similar lines of sensibility. So Bentham died in eighteen 99 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: thirty two, and when that happened, he wanted his dead 100 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: body to be preserved in a way that would allow 101 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: him to be wheeled out and presented to friends at 102 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: parties in case anybody missed seeing him. Take I want 103 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: you to take what I just said and compare that 104 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: to the picture of his preserved head above. Well, you know, 105 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: it certainly would be a conversation starter or stopper at 106 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: any party. Uh. I mean, it's pretty impressive looking. It 107 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: is identifiable as a head, even his head. Uh, it 108 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: kind of looks it has a very leathery consistency to it. Um. 109 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: The skin is kind of darkened and kind of looks 110 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: like a slim gem. There's hair on it, which I'm 111 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: guessing is perhaps his original hair, real hair. The eyes 112 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: clearly are not his original eyes. Appears to be a 113 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: pair of glass eyeballs that have been inserted into it, 114 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: which you give it this extra uncanny appearance because it 115 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: looks like, you know, the living dead. It looks like 116 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: the eyes of a of a litch staring at you. 117 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: But the look on his face is also not terrifying. 118 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,239 Speaker 1: It's more serene. It looks like he's pay anciently listening 119 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: to you while you're sharing a tidnet. Oh, I don't 120 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: know how, Serene, And I mean, I guess I kind 121 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: of see what you're saying. But he looks to me 122 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: very like startled and appalled. He looks like a a 123 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: butler who has accidentally opened a door to a room 124 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: in which something obscene is taking place. Oh, I get 125 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: more of a like he's patiently listening to you while 126 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: you tell him something that he personally finds boring by Okay, 127 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: he's a good listener, nonetheless, Okay, So what was the 128 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: deal with his head? Like? Why is his head off 129 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: of his dead body but they're both preserved. Why does 130 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: it look like that? To quote from Doss in this interview, 131 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: she says Bentham had made a special request that his 132 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: head be preserved in the style of the Maori, the 133 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: native New Zealanders, But his friend Dr southwood Smith, who 134 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: was tasked with creating the auto icon, wasn't necessarily as 135 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: practiced with that as he probably would have liked to 136 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: have been. And Dost goes on, and so the result 137 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: was ahead that southwood Smith said was not suitable for display, 138 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: which is why he had a wax model commissioned. That's 139 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: the one on display with the auto icon, which is 140 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: the skeleton in Bentham Zone clothes. So so, according to Das, 141 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: the head was desiccated here with sulfuric acid and sometimes 142 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: his hair still falls out. But the situation is that 143 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: there are two separate necro icons of this utilitarian philosopher 144 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: that are both made out of his real body. There's 145 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: his body containing his bones and his clothes, topped with 146 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: a fake wax head and that's on display at University 147 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: College London, and Rob I've got an image for you 148 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: to look at down below here, and then you also 149 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: have his severed head poorly preserved that we just described, 150 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: sometimes kept separately, sometimes shown at the feet of the 151 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: auto icon of the rest of the body because it's 152 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: just this disgusting, rotten looking beef jerky head. And then 153 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: of course there's the horrible body with a wax head 154 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: that has these gloves on it that look really just 155 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: this is awful. Yeah, the picture you shared that shows 156 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: the the wax headed figure with an actual skeleton inside 157 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: of it, uh seated and then there it at its 158 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: feet indeed is the original head and um, yeah, this 159 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: looks fairly terrifying but also symbolically potent. Maybe it's just 160 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: because of the some of the examples that I was 161 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: looking at from say Hindu iconography that we'll get into later. 162 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: Like there, I feel like this image is trying to 163 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: tell me something about about death. Yeah, it seems almost 164 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: in the style of the the cephalophor sat you know, 165 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: like the Saints like San Denis in Paris, the Saints 166 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: who carry their own heads in their hands because of 167 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: the legends where they were decapitated but then just picked 168 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: up their heads and walked around, did some miracles or something. Yeah, 169 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: except he's like saying, yeah, it's like, look, there's my 170 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: head down there. It's rotten, but I'm I'm one. Look 171 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: at this gorgeous wax head. I'm boasting. So the story 172 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: gets weird because we got to get to the actual theft. 173 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: This was all according to two Bentham's wishes, though the 174 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: mummification or preservation of the head got screwed up. Southwood 175 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: Smith did not do a good job with that, or 176 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: at least not to his own liking, and I don't know, 177 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: the results don't look great. But then the theft comes 178 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: in because apparently Jeremy Bentham's actual preserved head has been 179 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: repeatedly stolen or kidnapped as a result of student pranks 180 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: like Doss points out that sometime in the nineteen nineties, 181 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: Bentham's head was quote kidnapped by uc l's rival University 182 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: King's College in London. So I assume it was stolen 183 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: by some kind of English version of Jim Magilowski from 184 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: the Brain, you know, a prank boy. And in fact 185 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: it seems the head was stolen multiple times in its history. 186 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: I was reading a piece about this from Smith Journal 187 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: that says, quote once it was returned upon the making 188 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: of a charitable donation. On another occasion it was recovered 189 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: from a luggage locker in Aberdeen. A man as clever 190 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: as Bentham should have been able to foresee the inevitable 191 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: consequences of spending eternity among students. Now, at some point 192 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: the head was recovered from what happened in the nineties 193 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: these mischievous students, and it was put back on display 194 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: at least at one point for an exhibit called what 195 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: does it Mean to be Human? Curating Heads at u 196 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: c L. So this is a head that apparently keeps 197 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: getting stolen. Don't know if it will ever be stolen again. 198 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: I think they are taking extreme measures to prevent that, 199 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: but who knows what's going to happen. But we should 200 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: still say that, at least in Bentham's case, this is 201 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: consensual preservation in a museum. Despite a few uh encephaloclepts 202 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: over the years, there are also lots of disturbing cases 203 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: where someone's head or brain ends up in a museum 204 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: against their own wishes, whether it's by the supposed forces 205 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: of science and preservation or some other forces that are 206 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: doing the stealing. It has happened plenty of times that heads, 207 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: skulls and get taken from somebody's body, whether they wanted 208 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: that or not, and end up in a museum. And 209 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: and this brings me to the next thing I wanted 210 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,479 Speaker 1: to talk about, to follow up on some of the 211 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: UH some of the phrenology discussion from the last episode, 212 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: because I feel like I want to be a bit 213 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: self critical here, because I have to note that I 214 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: feel a baseline sympathy for the classic Indiana Jones line 215 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: about the Cross of Coronado in the Last Crusade when 216 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: he says it belongs in a museum. You know, I 217 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: I really enjoy museums, and I am instinctually drawn to 218 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: the idea that it's good to have artifacts preserved in 219 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: places like museums, places where you know, artifacts from history 220 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: should be the you know, the the common heritage of 221 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: all humankind to observe and learn from. And so it's 222 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: good that you get to go see them in a 223 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: museum in a place where they will be preserved as 224 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: well as possible across time. And this sounds good, but 225 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: of course it can in reality be an extremely fraught 226 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: concept and just one of the million complications. We expl 227 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: or some of this in our Invention episode on the 228 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: First Museum is the question of physical location. Like, I 229 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: think it is actually good that artifacts from ancient history 230 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: or even more recent history could in some way be 231 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: the common heritage of all humankind to learn from. But 232 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: they've got to physically be somewhere, and it turns out 233 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: that is often in like wealthy European nations or in 234 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: the United States, so like not everybody actually has the 235 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: same access to these artifacts. You know, you've got to 236 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: physically go to London or to Washington or something to 237 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: see them. Yeah, you have this this um, this this 238 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: severe imbalance where say school children in the United States 239 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: can go to their local museum in a major city 240 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: and see artifacts of ancient Egypt. But those same artifacts 241 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: are not on display at the local museum for actual 242 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: Egyptian children to see if they would have to look 243 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: at a reproduction or a picture in a book or 244 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: on the internet. Right. And of course, another big problem 245 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: here is just the question of, like, how do you 246 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: source these are the facts when you're you're bringing them 247 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: into museum collections, A lot of times it's hard to 248 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: make a convincing argument that that what's happening in the 249 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: collection of these artifacts is not just stealing, is just 250 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: stealing from dead people. And so I think that there 251 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: are real dilemmas here. I say this as as a 252 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: lover of museums, uh. And of course it's true even 253 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: of inanimate artifacts that are produced by people who are 254 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: long gone, But it's obviously even more fraught when you're 255 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: talking about things like the remains of human beings, especially 256 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: human beings who lived relatively recently, thank thank uh. And 257 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: so this brings me back to what we were talking 258 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: about in the heidn segment of part one. We were 259 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: talking about the development of the pseudoscience of phrenology, which 260 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: quick refresher. This was a a now completely debunked pseudoscience 261 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: that was popular, especially in like the first half of 262 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, popular throughout Europe in the United States, 263 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: and it was the belief that you could infer mental 264 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: characteristics of people by measuring bumps and contours on their skulls. 265 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: And this is one of the this was one of 266 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: the motivations for the stealing of the of Franz Joseph 267 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: Hydn's skull. Now, there are some strains of phrenology that 268 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: a person could see as extremely wrong and pseudo scientific, 269 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: but not super harmful, or at least not more harmful 270 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: than a belief in like palm reading or something. You know, 271 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: I'm just feeling around on your head and doing a 272 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: doing a little personality test for you. Right, It's not accurate, 273 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: there's no science to it, but it's it's ultimately, I guess, harmless, right, right, 274 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I guess all pseudoscience in a 275 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: way is potentially harmful, but it's not It's not as 276 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: harmful as the other stuff we're about to talk to. 277 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: Because there are these other strains and incarnations of phrenology 278 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: and other types of pseudoscience that are that are just 279 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: a straight up nightmare. Sometimes forms of racist pseudoscience aimed 280 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: at like proving that people with different skin colors were 281 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: a result of separate acts of divine creation, so they're 282 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: not even really all the same kind of human. Also 283 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: weird ideas of crackpot cranial criminology. Um that didn't mean 284 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: to be so illiterated there, but in the nineteenth century especially, 285 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: it was very common for proponents of phrenology and other 286 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: types of craniometry. So craniometry would be a any kind 287 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: of a belief system based on the measurements of the skull, 288 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: not necessarily like bumps like phrenology. But there were other 289 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: people who just tried to collect a bunch of skulls 290 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: and measure them and draw inferences. Uh So, so there 291 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: were these things going on, and they would cause people 292 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: to gather these huge collections of human skulls, supposedly to 293 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: form the raw materials for their research. But I was 294 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: reading about this in that same book I mentioned in 295 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: the previous episode, the one by Francis Larson called Severed, 296 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: which this whole chapter is really, uh really horrifying and 297 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: fascinating uh, it would lead these people to gather these 298 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: big collections of skulls that in practice, it seems to 299 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: me these collections were often just as much as sort 300 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: of personal museum exhibit or a morbid curio collection to 301 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: impress guests and wealthy benefactors as they were even a 302 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: failed attempt to actually gather data. And unfortunately, it seems 303 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: like most of these skulls collected for supposed craniometric research 304 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds were not donated consensually. You can 305 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: probably imagine where a lot of them came from. A 306 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: lot of them were stolen from graveyards and battlefields. Some 307 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: came from prisons and morgues, hospitals, workhouses, burial grounds, without 308 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: the consultation of the owner or their family, and often 309 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: without even knowing who the person had actually been. And 310 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: as you might guess, the less wealth and power the 311 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: person had, the more likely that their skull might be 312 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: stolen after their death. Many came from cemeteries of enslaved 313 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: people in America. There are horrific details of the harvesting 314 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: of skulls from Native American people's during the wars of 315 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: expansion of the U. S Frontier into tribal lands, and 316 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: many came from just from poor people, from workhouses and 317 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: potter's fields. Larson as a whole chapter about this horrible 318 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: episode in history and her book severed Um. But a 319 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: couple of these notorious skull collectors she mentions are the 320 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: English doctor Joseph Barnard Davis and the American physician Samuel 321 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: George Morton. Both were mainly working in the early to 322 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: mid nineteenth century, and she tells one anecdote about Barnard 323 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: Davis that I wanted to read here, so she says 324 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: quote as a physician, Barnard Davis showed few qualms when 325 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: it came to head collecting. John Betto, a fellow doctor, 326 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: remembered that he looked on heads simply as potential skulls. 327 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: Beddo recounted introducing Barnard Davis during his rounds at the 328 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: hospital to one of his patients, a sailor from Dubrovnik 329 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: who had nearly drowned. It was being cared for at 330 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: the brisk A Royal Infirmary. Betto was treating the man 331 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: for gang green on the lung. Barnard Davis's curiosity was 332 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: immediately piqued. Now, he said to Betto, you know that 333 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: man can't recover, do take care to secure his head 334 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: for me when he dies? For I have no cranium 335 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: from that neighborhood. I guess he was talking about the 336 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: neighborhood of Dubrovnik. And Uh. Then Larsen goes on. Luckily 337 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: for the sailor Bernard Davis had been too enthusiastic in 338 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: his diagnosis. The patient made a full recovery, and Tibetto's 339 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: amused relief he carried his head on his own shoulders 340 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: back to Herzegovina. Uh. And so she says, like, this 341 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 1: is this is the reality of what's often going on 342 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: in skull collecting. It's like basically totally ignoring the humanity 343 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: of human beings and just being like, how am I 344 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,239 Speaker 1: going to get that skull? It's like a like a 345 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: cartoon where one cartoon character looks at the other and 346 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: just sees like food as a cannibalistic frenzy takes every 347 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: except yeah, the Loony Tunes where like they're in the 348 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: lifeboat and like Donald Doc looks at somebody and just 349 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: imagines their body is like a like a drumstick or something. Yeah. 350 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: It also reminds me of that line and T. S. 351 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: Eliot's Whispers of Immortality. Webster was much possessed by death 352 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: and saw the skull and eat the skin. Now, it's 353 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: also worth pointing out that the findings of these early 354 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: craniometrists have not really held up to scientific scrutiny. Larson 355 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: talks about this as well, all of the problems with 356 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: their supposed research. Uh, they a lot of them were 357 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: trying to make generalizations about the mental qualities of large 358 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: groups of people. Oh, you know, you can see because 359 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: of this trend in the skulls of people from this 360 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: part of the world that they have these mental characteristics. 361 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: And this was all based on the skull measurements. But 362 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: their research was plagued by poor methodology, inconsistency and samples 363 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: inconsistency and measurements, fudging the data when it didn't fit, etcetera. 364 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: Larson as a whole discussion on this, it seems like 365 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: once again we're dealing with something that ultimately just amounted 366 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: to bunk. Though I it also to discuss a couple 367 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: of points that she makes, which I thought were very 368 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: useful and interpreting what was going on here. Historically. One 369 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: interesting issue was if people are looking into, you know, 370 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: these various questions, trying to understand the human mind, trying 371 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: to understand culture, trying to understand mental processes. Why the 372 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: particular emphasis on skulls, like why the phrenology and craniometry 373 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: craze as a very bone focused thing to begin with. Well, 374 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,239 Speaker 1: she talks about how the physical characteristics of skulls just 375 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: happened to lend themselves quite well to the practical applications 376 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: and interests of the people who were in these fields. 377 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: So she writes quote one Victorian physician, James Aitken MiGs 378 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: noted that skulls are easily prepared and preserved, maybe conveniently 379 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: handled and surveyed, Considered in various points of view, and 380 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: compared to each other. Skulls are favorable specimens because they're small, 381 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: hard and robut dust. They're more compact than whole skeletons, 382 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: which means that they can be relatively easily transported, and 383 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: they're more durable than the messy tissues they contain, surviving 384 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: for centuries on a museum shelf. They're surprisingly resistant to pressure, 385 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: partly because of their shape, but also because the skull, 386 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: unlike longbones, has no marrow and skulls were thought to 387 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: be the most characteristic part of the human body because 388 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: there were so many ways in which one could be 389 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: different from another, full of nooks and crannies and holes 390 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: and lumps. They were a statistician's dream. So this seems 391 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: like one of those cases of people who thought they 392 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: were doing scientific research but may well have been letting 393 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: their theories be overdetermined by attraction to the specific practical 394 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: and esthetic aspects of objects that they just wanted to study. 395 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: Maybe because it was kind of attractive to have a 396 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: collection of these in your house that you could show 397 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: off to people. Maybe because they were easy to move 398 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: around from place to place and store, and much more so, 399 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: of course than actual brains themselves, which would quickly wrought 400 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, skulls 401 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: are really cool. I mean there's no denying it, um 402 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: that their neat. Uh. You know, it's fun to draw skulls, 403 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: it's fun to look at pictures and photos and illustrations 404 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: of skulls, skull iconography, and just pretty much every culture 405 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: on earth is instantly captivating. Uh. And then yeah, you 406 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: can see where someone might be like, all right, let's 407 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna lean into this. Skulls are my thing. I 408 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: want to study the skull. What what kind of information 409 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: can I glean from the skull? Yeah, you almost get 410 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: the sense that this was, um, it was a very 411 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: cart before the horse. It was kind of like, uh, 412 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: skull collecting first science second, and it turned out that 413 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: the science was not even good science. Yeah, I mean 414 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: it just inevitably it brings us back to the you know, 415 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: the end of the scene from Hamlet where he's holding 416 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: the skull and contemplating mortality and impermanence and so forth. 417 00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: You know, I mean, it's just that that's what the 418 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: skull is. It is such a a potent symbol of 419 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: these just all these different ideas and concerns and anxieties 420 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: we have about impermanence. Yeah. Now, when it comes to 421 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: brains specifically, I also want to talk about one tragic 422 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: case in history of of brains being preserved for supposed 423 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: scientific uses or by museums without the consent of the 424 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: person and so. And of course this is something to 425 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: consider in contrast to something like Bentham or like you know, 426 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: where somebody intentionally grants their head to a museum or something. Uh, 427 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: this is the story of a man known to history 428 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: as is She now, as told by Larson is She 429 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: was a Native American man who was captured while foraging 430 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: near a slaughter house in northern California in the year 431 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eleven. He was about fifty years old. He did 432 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: not speak English, and he apparently at least had no 433 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: living friends or relatives, and so he was say into 434 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: anthropologists at the University of California, Berkeley, who identified him 435 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 1: as a member of the Yahi people, many of whom 436 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: had been victims of genocide by the white settlers in 437 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: northern California. And Uhhi was not even really the man's name. 438 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: Is She was an identifier given to him by the anthropologist, 439 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: which apparently meant man in the Yana language, that's the 440 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: overarching language to which the Yahi people belonged. But the 441 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: man known as She never revealed his real name, do 442 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: apparently to to accustom within his culture of not revealing 443 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: your name to someone unless you are introduced by a 444 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: member of your own people. So after he after he 445 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: was captured, he was taken to the University of California 446 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: Museum of Anthropology, where he lived for some time. He 447 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: worked as a janitor, and anthropologists did some research with him. 448 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: They made recordings of him speaking and singing in his language. Uh. 449 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: They they studied his language, studied him in other ways, 450 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: and he passed away nineteen sixteen. And then when I 451 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: want to pick up, quoting from Larsen here quote is 452 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: She had expressly asked that his body not be subject 453 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: to a post mortem. One curator wrote in the days 454 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: before is She's death, quote science can go to hell. 455 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 1: We propose to stand by our friends. He added, Besides, 456 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: I cannot believe that any scientific value is materially involved. 457 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: The prime interest in his case would be of a 458 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: morbid romantic nature. But his letter arrived too late. Staff 459 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: at the museum, who declared themselves is She's friends made 460 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: quote a compromise between science and sentiment, and performed an 461 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: autopsy against his wishes. They removed his brain and sent 462 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: it to the Smithsonian. Those who undertook the autopsy comforted 463 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: themselves that it had been minimally invasive and certainly not 464 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: as disrespectful as a dissection. His brain, after all, was 465 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: preserved rather than destroyed. The rest of Ishi's body, which 466 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: was kept whole, was cremated in a California, sim Terry. 467 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: Thus the autopsy was seen as a compromise, despite the 468 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: fact that it went against the dead man's wishes, and 469 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: Larson goes on to say that she's body was divided 470 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: after death, just as his identity had been in life. 471 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: He was both a man and a scientific specimen. Like 472 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: so many others. He had supposedly been quote the last 473 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: of his tribe, and was apparently without living relatives, and 474 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: was considered to quote valuable to lose in death. And 475 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: I feel like this story is such an important reminder 476 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: that even if what you're doing is real science and 477 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: not for anology or something, you can't ever let yourself 478 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 1: start thinking about human beings as information first. I mean, 479 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: the situation she's describing here is that there were scientists 480 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: who were saying, like, oh, but it's just it would 481 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: just be too valuable, uh, to to study his brain. 482 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: There's too much we can learn from it. But I mean, 483 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: he didn't want this to happen. And so you've got 484 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 1: to remember to think of people as people first, and 485 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: only once they say Okay, I am willing to have 486 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: my my body somehow translated into information for science, that 487 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: you can proceed down that road. It's the basis of 488 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: the concept of informed consent, which is so important and 489 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: scientific research today. Plus, I feel like, you know, certainly 490 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: from our perspective, the case was not very strong, for 491 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: we must preserve this brain, we must study this brain. 492 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: I know, as as one of the people who worked 493 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: with you. She said, you know that it's probably more 494 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: a case of motivation by mere morbid curiosity, with also 495 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure quite racist undertones. Yeah, yeah, it's not. It's 496 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: not like they were trying to solve a crime. It's 497 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: not like they were trying to understand the ravages of 498 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: a particular disease, etcetera. Yeah, it seemed based almost entirely 499 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: in just morbid interest. Fortunately, there is a better conclusion 500 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: to this story. So I was reading a San Francisco 501 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: Chronicle article by Kevin Fagan from the year two thousand 502 00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: that was about the reunification of of She's remains. So 503 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: Fagin here writes quote, sometime today, a jet is scheduled 504 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: to land in California carrying a band of Ish's descendants, 505 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: and with them will be the long lost final piece 506 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: of their ancestor, Ish's brain. Leaders of the reading Rancheria 507 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: and Pitt River tribes, which trace their bloodlines to is 508 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: She's extinct Yahe nation through the Yana tribe promised to 509 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: never reveal where they buried him. They're not saying when 510 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: they will do it either, just that they're landing in 511 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: California today and that they want to be left alone 512 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: to shepherd their departed elder spirit away in peace. So 513 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: obviously it's good to hear that that happened, but it 514 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: only follows, you know, what had already happened and could 515 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: not be undone, and it makes you, I mean again, 516 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: it brings me back to this question about like, um, 517 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: how do you how do you manage the sort of 518 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: scientific and preservation impulse that belongs in a museum impulse 519 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: against questions where maybe it's not as clear, like it's 520 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: clear that this should not that that's brain should not 521 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: have been removed because he was alive. You got to 522 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: hear him say no, I don't want this. Um. I 523 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: guess the tougher question is in cases of like what 524 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: what about the remains of people who have been dead 525 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: for a longer time and you know, could not be 526 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: consulted on the question of whether they would be interested 527 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: in being the subject of scientific research or not. And 528 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: I genuinely don't know the answer there. Yeah, I do 529 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: like how the story ended with the brain being returned 530 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: into tribal privacy, you know, like and I feel like 531 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: that detail you know of itself, that that lines up 532 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: with a lot of different you know, things for seeing 533 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: regarding not only like actual artifacts, but also just like 534 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: traditions and information. Um. I did a I did an 535 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: article last year for House to Works about the skin Walker. 536 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: They wanted an article about the Navajo tradition of the 537 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: skin walker, and like that was one of the things 538 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: I really was driven home from me in researching that 539 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: is like that there there are certain you know, aspects 540 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: of of living tradition that you know, it's it's it's 541 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: disrespectful to to to you know, to act on this 542 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: desire to collect it all and to and to keep 543 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: it all and to codify it and to put it 544 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: on a shelf. That some things you know, still belong 545 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: to the people who created them, and you know they 546 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: can share them if they want to, you know. Uh So, Yeah, 547 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: I can't help but be reminded of that with this 548 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: the story of of this this piece of this individual 549 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: finally being returned to his people, and in doing so 550 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: it kind of passes out of of the broader like 551 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: media view, right that you're not going to be like 552 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: taking TV cameras to his grave site or yeah, that 553 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing, because that would just be a continuation 554 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: of the same sort of energy that he seemed very 555 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: outspoken against. Well, now that we've talked a good bit 556 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: about the foibles and horrors of relatively recent skull head 557 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: and brain theft, uh, what do you say we go 558 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: back into some some more deeper history and mythology. Yeah, yeah, 559 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: because again, you know, the skull, the head, Uh, you know, 560 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: these are certainly long standing icons. So they've been focal 561 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 1: points for myth making and dreaming and anxiety, you know, 562 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: throughout all the human existence. And it's it's it's only 563 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: relatively recently we've been able to focus more on the 564 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: brain as an icon. You know. Um, you know, like 565 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: if you ever encounter a ghost movie that has like 566 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: a brain based ghost, it's a little off off putting, 567 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: right because it doesn't seem like the ghost should be 568 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: associated with the brain. The brain seems more of a 569 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: science fiction quality as opposed to something that is more 570 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: supernatural in nature. So yeah, I guess to begin with, 571 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: we should point out that folks have been taken heads 572 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: for longer than they have had any any certainly any 573 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: understanding of the brains rattling around inside them. Uh. And 574 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: we don't even have to get into all the gory details, 575 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: because you know the sort of things we're talking about, 576 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, heads hewn off in battles, heads mounted on 577 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: poles and pikes, lobbed with a catapult, skulls lined up 578 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: on the on shelves in catacombs, that sort of thing. 579 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: And we're also never in some cases we're not sure, 580 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, when we're dealing with something where it's okay, 581 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: is this head a trophy? Is this some sort or 582 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: of this some some sort of like sacred funerary tradition 583 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: or something in between a lot of times we have 584 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: to sort of piece together what it actually meant. So 585 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: one example, I was looking at from the ancient world, 586 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: and this is this is not so much myth here, 587 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: this is actual, like you know, actual um archaeological evidence. Uh. 588 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: I was reading ritual use of trophy heads in Ancient 589 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: Nascar society and this was by Donald A. Prue, published 590 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: in Ritual Sacrifice in ancient Peru in two thousand and one. 591 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: So the taking of heads for ritual use has a 592 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: long history in the Central Andes, from the pre Ceramic 593 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: period prior to about eighteen hundred BC and continuing through 594 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: Inca times and with the Nasca, the craftspeople Uh you know, 595 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: responsible for the Nasca lines. These were created between five 596 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: BC and five With the Nasca Uh they also engaged 597 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: in the taking of heads, and we see it represented 598 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: in their rich textile art, depicting warriors, shamans, mythical beings 599 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: in some cases with human heads, often on their cloaks 600 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 1: or in their hands, and according to Prue, over one 601 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: hundred examples remain of the Nasca mummified heads which were 602 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: the which were first removed from the body, apparently with 603 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: an obsidian knife, and then a hole would have been 604 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: punched through the base of the skull using a club 605 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: or some sort of a tool, and then the brain 606 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: and the eyes were removed through that opening. But then 607 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: another hole, smaller hole was punched or drilled through the forehead, 608 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: and this was apparently in order to allow a carrying 609 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: rope to be secured. The lips were pinned with thorns 610 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: and cloth was stuffed into the skull, and so you 611 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: have a preserved skull at this point. So you said 612 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: that these were believed to be for ritual use. Was 613 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: the thought that they would be like displayed somewhere, or 614 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: that they would be like carried in a ceremony. This 615 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: is where it all gets really interesting, And this is 616 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: where that where a lot of authors of and a 617 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: lot of scientists have have really chimed in with different views. 618 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: But it looks it's easy to look at something like 619 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: this and think of it just as trophy taking, right 620 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: like the just the trophy taking of a war like people, 621 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: and indeed war was an important part of their culture. 622 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: But the reality seems to have been ultimately far more complicated. 623 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: Substitute head jars where sometimes we're found to be buried 624 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: with the bodies and the actual heads were not merely 625 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: symbols of victory, but they were used in shamatic rituals, 626 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: perhaps entailing hallucinogenics as a means of communing with the 627 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: spirit realm and according to pro quote, propagating and controlling 628 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: the forces of nature, especially so far as natural resources 629 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: are concerned. Now, apparently some have argued that these were 630 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: not trophy heads, but the heads of honored ancestors. But 631 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: pro dis disputes this. He he defines them instead as quote, 632 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: trophies of warfare collected for ritual purposes. So that that's 633 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: that's interesting because it seems to I think to a 634 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: lot of modern minds, it seems to be it seems 635 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: sounds like a mashup of two twoferent ideas, like you're 636 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: taking the head of your your enemy off of their 637 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: dead body, but isn't. But you're probably doing that as 638 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: like a trophy or a sign of disrespect. You know, 639 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: we often think of that. Um, I think of the 640 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: key and peel skit where one like Barbarian the heads 641 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: another and then goes through all these various sort of 642 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: comedic acts with the head to see what how the 643 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: rest of the tribe responds. I know that what does 644 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: he do? He? Uh, he like puts little shoes under 645 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 1: it and makes it walk, Yeah, and like that's that's 646 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: a big hit. But he also like does things like 647 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: pretend to give birth to the head, and like that 648 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: just doesn't they don't like it. That's funny, Yeah, But 649 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing where like when we think 650 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: about head taking, we think of stuff like that. We 651 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: think of like something barbaric and trophy oriented. But in 652 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: this case it seems like it wasn't bad or it 653 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: wasn't purely that it was. It was also this idea 654 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: of what you need this head. This head is necessary 655 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: for various religious purposes, a way of a means of 656 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: communing with the spirit realm um. Now, as for the brain, 657 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: it seems like the brain was was discarded. That would 658 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: have been again, that would have been part of like 659 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: that first act of of punching through the back of 660 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: the skull to remove the eyes and the brain. Uh. 661 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: Probably going back to the reality we talked about before 662 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: where the brain uh rots rather rather quickly, and that's 663 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: going to be one of the first things you're gonna 664 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: want to remove. Now. This also reminds me of the 665 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: mummified heads of the Kocoum dynasty of the Maya, which 666 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: were kept and preserved because they were said to contain 667 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: the voices of their ancestors, again a means of communicating 668 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: with spirits and or the dead. This is interesting to 669 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: compare to remember what we talked about in the first 670 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: episode about the plastered heads of Chattelhyuk in in southern Turkey, 671 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: which you know from this Stone Age settlement, there were 672 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: often heads of ancestors that were kept in some kind 673 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: of preserved form, apparently within the home. Yeah, and during 674 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: the mid first millennium BC, there were there were various 675 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: accounts of the use of human heads in acts of 676 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: of of communion, necromancy, divination across the Mediterranean. We see 677 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: it mentioned in the accounts of rodotas in Aristotle, um 678 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: uh Cleo Manis of the first of Sparta is said 679 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: to have consulted with the head of his friend our 680 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: quantities on all major decisions ahead, which he kept preserved 681 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: in honey, whoa in honey, Yeah, that's good. And so 682 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: you know, of course, when we deal with accounts like this, 683 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,959 Speaker 1: we're we're beginning to at least beginning to transfer into 684 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: the realm of myth and lore and legend, where we 685 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 1: we become less sure about what is actually going on, 686 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: because then there is this broader realm of just stories 687 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: about disembodied heads that still have life in them, that 688 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: can speak, that can fly, that can terrorize, that can 689 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: give you know, important advice to the living, etcetera. I 690 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: think one of the coolest of these that uh, that 691 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 1: folks may have heard of is is the myth of 692 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: of Memir uh in Norse mythology. Uh So this Memir 693 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: was one of the Jiltons in Norse mythology, one of 694 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: the frost giants, and he was the guardian of the 695 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: well of inspiration and wisdom at the roots of the 696 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 1: world tree. And Odin would come to to drink from 697 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: the well and Memory would make him leave an eye 698 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: and payment. And then member was held hostage in in 699 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: battle by the Vanier during the the Aser Vanier War, 700 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: and they beheaded him, but Odin, since he liked the guy, 701 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, retrieved his head and kept alive with magic 702 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: herbs so that the head could continue to give counsel 703 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: to the King of the gods. And so you'll see uh, 704 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: some wonderful illustrations of this, both old and then recent, 705 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: where there's like this some of some cases is like 706 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: a zombie head that Odin is is holding that he is, 707 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,439 Speaker 1: uh that that is his advisor. Yeah, you've attached one 708 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: here where Odin is is leaning his head over on 709 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: the severed head like he's almost kind of snuggling with it. 710 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: Of course, Odin is missing one eye as usual, and uh, 711 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: and there's just fire coming out of the thing's mouth 712 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: or I don't know, it looks like he's got like 713 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: a star inside the back of his throat. Yes. Um. 714 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: In terms of heads that give advice like this, there's 715 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,439 Speaker 1: also an Arabian Nights story of of King Yu Nan 716 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: and the Duban and Duban the sage and the stage 717 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 1: in question. At least in some variations of this tale, 718 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: continues to speak after it has been removed from its body. 719 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna get into some other examples. Uh here, 720 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: Uh you know of of disembodied heads of decapitation in 721 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: mythology that are that are pretty interesting. One that I 722 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: found really fascinating is the self decapitating nude goddess of Hinduism. Uh. 723 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: That is that is known as China Masta, and that 724 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,359 Speaker 1: just means she's she whose head is severed, and she's 725 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,959 Speaker 1: typically depicted red fleshed and holding a scimitar in one 726 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: hand and her own head in the other as blood 727 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: fountains from the stump of her neck, which and in 728 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: some cases is then consumed by her thirsty skeletal attendants. 729 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: And then she is usually stand depicted standing on top 730 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 1: of a copulating human couple. Uh So, it's it's an 731 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: instantly um captivating image. She's one of the ten goddesses 732 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: of the esoteric tradition of Tantra, and she's a slayer 733 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: of demons. So she's a highly uh symbolic deity. There's 734 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: the sense of the transcendence of the body free of 735 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: the mind. You know, the body, the mind has clearly 736 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: literally been removed from the physical form. She's a symbol 737 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,319 Speaker 1: of sacrifice and ferocity. Yeah, this image, rey is amazing. Yeah, 738 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: it probably goes without saying, but this in particular, though, 739 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: this goes for a lot of Hindu iconography. This is 740 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: an image that's caught the interest of various Westerners, so 741 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 1: you'll sometimes see it depicted by Western artists or adopted 742 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: by death metal bands, etcetera. Right, man, the death metal bands, 743 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: they just they just snatch up everything. Cool. Yeah, Yeah, 744 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: if it's you know, it hits a certain vibe for them, 745 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: they'll they'll they'll take it. Uh So, they're at least 746 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: a couple of speaking heads associated with tellings and retellings 747 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: of the Mahabarata, the Hindu epic heads placed on poles 748 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: after being sacrificed or having their body sacrifice in order 749 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: to watch the battle. And I was reading a little 750 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: bit about this from author and mythologist dev Dute Panna Nick, 751 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: who has a whole page about these tales at his 752 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 1: mythology website dev Dute dot com. It's d V d 753 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: U t T dot com. Uh. He writes that these 754 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: tales are often about perspective. Quote. The talking head is 755 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: thus a symbol for a less confined, more global perspective 756 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: on things. All of us see the world from our 757 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: individual point of view, limited by our prejudices, our expectations, 758 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: and our experiences. The talking head sees it from an 759 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: alternative angle, and when he voices his opinions, we see 760 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: the world quite differently. When he speaks, we realize the 761 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: Pandavas and the caravas are are tiny elements of God's 762 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,959 Speaker 1: greater canvas. The Mahabarata is not just about one kingdom. 763 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: It is about cosmic order. Now that's not to say 764 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: there aren't just monster heads too in Hindu iconography. Uh. 765 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: There's a really cool example, uh named Kurta Muka, or 766 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: the head of Glory as it's often referred to. And 767 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: this is a monstrous flying head in Hindu mythology that 768 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: seems to be similar in many ways to the Gorgonian 769 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: head of the Greek tradition that we discus in our 770 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: Medusa episodes. So, according to Carol Rose, the folklore is 771 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: when Shiva was told that he was unworthy of marrying Parvati. 772 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,840 Speaker 1: In his rage, his experiences such rage that a monstrous 773 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,720 Speaker 1: lion springs from his head and then it attacks Shiva, 774 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: and he commands that, no, we're not doing that, uh 775 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: eat yourself instead, and so this monster consumes its own body, 776 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: leaving only its in trails, which then turned to pearls, 777 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: and so that leaves only the head. So Shiva then 778 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: commands uh Kota Muka to serve as the guardian of entrances. 779 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: And so you see this head, this head of glory 780 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: uh in um, you know, above the door or around 781 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: the door of in in many different examples of of 782 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: Hindu architecture from India and from other countries. You know, 783 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: this is interesting because you brought it up and I 784 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: somehow did not think about it. But from Greek mythology. 785 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: You know, we did the episode last year about about Medusa. 786 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: That's of course the case of a stolen head in mythology, 787 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: or the head is severed and like he takes it 788 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: and uses it as a tool. Yeah, it becomes a weapon, 789 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: not so much a means of communicating with anything, but 790 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: but this this weapon, this symbol, and and here we 791 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: see another tradition. Now I've not read anything that that 792 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 1: links the two in any respect. You know, let's just 793 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 1: say that like one inspired the other anything of that nature. 794 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: But clearly they're getting it similar ideas. The idea of 795 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: this um, this terrifying head, uh, and or face that 796 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: stares out from a work as a as a way 797 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: of warning those who would who would trespass. Now I 798 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: should know that that looking around though sometimes it appears 799 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: to have arms, So I don't know if it it 800 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 1: gains arms later or arms just end up popping back 801 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: up in the iconography. But there you go. Another entity 802 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,879 Speaker 1: we've talked about before in the show is Rahu in Hinduism, 803 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: the eclipse entity. Uh. You know, this is the you 804 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: know once was a proud oshera demi god of immense 805 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: power and hunger and seeking immortality. It drinks the divine nectar, 806 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: but before this drop can pass his throat, he's swallowing 807 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: it mid swallow, Vishnu decapitates him for his transgression and yeah, 808 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,240 Speaker 1: and this ends up translating into this um this eclipse 809 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: mythology where the head of Rajo attempts to consume the 810 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: sun or does consume the sun, but then it passes 811 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: out of the next dump. I think we talked about 812 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: this in one of the first episodes of Stuff to 813 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind. I ever did the one on the eclipse? Yeah, yeah, 814 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: I think so. Another example is uh Braun the Blessed. 815 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: In Welsh mythology, the giant king who mortally wounded in battle, 816 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: had his followers cut off his head so that it 817 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: could be returned to Britain one day. And for a 818 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: long time this head was said to speak before it 819 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: grew silent, and the story goes that the silent head 820 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: was finally taken to White Hill. Uh. This is where 821 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: the Tower of London, they say would one day be built, 822 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: and they buried it there facing France to word off 823 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,759 Speaker 1: the enemy. And this supposedly ties into the uh the 824 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: The Celtic cult of of the head also reflected in 825 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 1: the Tale of the Green Knight. Uh. We're in In 826 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,879 Speaker 1: the Green Night, the Green Knight comes into Arthur's court 827 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: and challenges someone to cut off his head. But then 828 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: when they do, he just picks it up and he's like, no, 829 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,959 Speaker 1: I'm fine. Now I get to cut off your head, 830 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,359 Speaker 1: but I'll do it a year from now. Yeah. The 831 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: the decapitation battle is another motif or contest. You see that, 832 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 1: uh in a lot of legends from this part of 833 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: the world, and it's interesting, you know. Um. Terry Jones 834 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: of Money Python, of course, was very steeped in uh 835 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: in this sort of lore, and he was one of 836 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: the author one of the writers for the screenplay for Labyrinth, 837 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: and Labyrinth features those wonderful fiery red creatures that attempt 838 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: to engage in a decapitation contest with our our heroine, Sarah. 839 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: Do you remember them where they're like? Where did they 840 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 1: get mad at her? Because you're only you're not supposed 841 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: to take someone else's head, only supposed to take your 842 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: own head. Off of this, this reminds me of of 843 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: the head swapping scene and teams in the universe. Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. 844 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: I mean this sort of thing, head swapping, decapitated heads 845 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,439 Speaker 1: living on You see it just everywhere. Um. For instance. Here, 846 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: here's some other examples in in Maya mythology, you have 847 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: head app Woo who was tripped by the lords of 848 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: the underworld and his decapitated head was didn't hung as 849 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: a trophy from a giant tree. But then this head 850 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 1: later spits into a woman's hand and in doing so 851 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: impregnates her with the Maya hero twins, who would go 852 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 1: on to have various adventures. We've already touched on in 853 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: the previous episode. We've touched on Orpheus is singing head 854 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: and Greek mythology. Oh yeah, and the possible symbolic connection 855 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: to the box made for Hyde and Skull with the 856 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,360 Speaker 1: liar Yeah. Uh. In the trial of the Knights Templars, 857 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,840 Speaker 1: one of the charges was that they worshiped an entity 858 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,360 Speaker 1: called Bahammet that was sometimes described as a severed head. 859 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: And then oh, you have some wonderful monsters as well. Um, 860 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: there's the Kara Sioux in the Southeast day. It's a 861 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: Southeast Asian spirit that takes the form of a beautiful 862 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 1: woman's head with her organs dangling below her neck so 863 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 1: it floats it close and it seems to essentially be 864 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: another variation of the willow the whisp tradition. Uh. That 865 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: is held around the world and that we devoted a 866 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: big episode two in the past, so she can't what 867 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,760 Speaker 1: she like glows and leads people off the path. I believe, 868 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: so yes. Um. And there's there's actually Indonesian horror movie 869 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: titled Mystics in Bali that looks pretty interesting because it 870 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: features the kara su I included a screenshot here for you, Joe, 871 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,359 Speaker 1: and for a movie trailer for you to check out later. 872 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I gotta, I gotta see that. That looks 873 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: great now. The melee version of this is the pontionic, 874 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,680 Speaker 1: which functions like a vampire, only it prays exclusively on 875 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: babies and infants. Then there's also the Japanese uh Nuki kubi, 876 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: which is a type of yokai and Japanese traditions. It's 877 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: humanoid in form, but it can separate its head from 878 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: its body and this can float free to work mischief. 879 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: It's just one of one of various examples of disembodied 880 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: heads that you'll find in Japanese lore. And then in 881 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,439 Speaker 1: um Uh, the Native people's of the Americas, you find 882 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: some other interesting traditions as well. Uh the flying head 883 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: of the Iroquois and the one doctor mythology, this is 884 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: a great flying head, sometimes with bat wings on each 885 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 1: side of its head, with long hair and terrible eyes. 886 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,879 Speaker 1: Carol Rose writes about these in her book on Monsters. Uh. 887 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 1: She said that this was an entire class of monsters 888 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: in the folklore of the Iroquois, huge ugly heads with 889 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,760 Speaker 1: eyes of fire, dripping fangs, and huge wings instead of ears. 890 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: They fly through storm winds with wild hair, uh, you know, 891 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,080 Speaker 1: helping to keep them afloat and kind of floating around them. 892 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,440 Speaker 1: They prey on villagers and animals alike. And their teeth 893 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: they're like it sounds like they were kind of like 894 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,799 Speaker 1: like a cage. If their if their teeth or their 895 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 1: jaws close over you, there's no escape ape. But there's 896 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,320 Speaker 1: a tail apparently of an old woman who is roasting 897 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: some chestnuts over the fire, and then she brings a 898 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: fiery coal back from the fire with her to keep 899 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,360 Speaker 1: her warm. And then here comes the flying head and 900 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: it it gobbles her up chestnuts and all, but then 901 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 1: it has to spit her out because of the fiery coal, 902 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,360 Speaker 1: and then that coal burns the monster up from the 903 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: inside out. Oh. I love when the story is a 904 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: trick like that. Yeah, especially when it's like an old 905 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: lady who gets gets the wind over the monster. That's 906 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:37,759 Speaker 1: always nice, not not your traditional young, dashing male slayer. Yeah. So, 907 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,440 Speaker 1: so that's just an example of some of the myths 908 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: and legends and folklore tales you'll find just throughout the world. 909 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,040 Speaker 1: I know there's some wonderful ones that I didn't touch on, 910 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,000 Speaker 1: and certainly I'd love to hear from anyone out there 911 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,400 Speaker 1: if you have a really good one, if you have 912 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 1: a favorite, uh, we would love to to hear it 913 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: and then potentially share it back with everybody else in 914 00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,400 Speaker 1: a listener Maile episode. But I think just this selection 915 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,759 Speaker 1: gives you a certain taste of what out what's out there, 916 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,400 Speaker 1: you know, these various imaginative contemplations on like what happens 917 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,280 Speaker 1: if the head lives and the body dies, what happens 918 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,359 Speaker 1: if the body decapitates itself, Like there's just it's just 919 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 1: such rich grounds for contemplation regarding identity and mortality and 920 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: just so much. It seems like a lot of times 921 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 1: disembodied heads are angry. Yeah, well, you know a lot 922 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,319 Speaker 1: of times, I guess they do have something to be 923 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 1: angry about. But but then sometimes their jovial. Um. You know, 924 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: there's some of those examples from the from tellings of 925 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 1: the Mahabarata. I was reading like they're laughing, like their 926 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: laugh there's one where I think their laughs there distracts 927 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,319 Speaker 1: are Anna during the battle, um, you know, and there's 928 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 1: a sense of like being free from the body. UM. 929 00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm also reminded of the heads that show up in 930 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 1: Miyazaki Spirited Away, the three heads that kind of roll 931 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: around and bumble, and they don't have much personality to them, 932 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,360 Speaker 1: and I don't really know what they're doing and what 933 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,919 Speaker 1: they're there for, but they don't seem to stressed. They say, 934 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,280 Speaker 1: maybe perpetually alarmed. But uh, that's about it. That's good stuff. 935 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,960 Speaker 1: All right. Well, we're gonna go ahead and close this 936 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: episode out, but yeah, we'd love to hear from everybody 937 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 1: out there. Any any other examples of flying heads and 938 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 1: self decapitating spirits, other examples of brain and head preservation. 939 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: Have you been taken by a particular specimen of brain 940 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,399 Speaker 1: or head at a museum. We would love to hear 941 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,759 Speaker 1: from you all about it. In the meantime, if you 942 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,359 Speaker 1: want to check out other episodes of stuff to blow 943 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:31,920 Speaker 1: your mind, you can find us wherever you get your 944 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: podcasts uh and wherever that happens to be. We just 945 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: asked that you rate, review, and subscribe Huge things as 946 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 947 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 948 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,960 Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 949 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,000 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 950 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 951 00:53:50,160 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 1: dot com. Stop to Blow your Mind, It's production I 952 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,920 Speaker 1: Heart Radio for more podcasts for my heart radio. This 953 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,520 Speaker 1: is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 954 00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:06,920 Speaker 1: you're listening to your favorite shows.