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Speaker 1: Hey Orge, did you have a good snack before you

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Speaker 1: just hit record?

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Speaker 4: I did? I just finished the banana?

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Speaker 1: Actually, and is that banana enough energy to power you

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Speaker 1: for a whole hour?

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Speaker 4: M depends on what I'm doing that hour. You know,

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Speaker 4: procrastination doesn't take much energy.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's amazing to me that you can turn bananas

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Speaker 1: into physics podcasts.

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Speaker 4: That amazes use a physicists is in all energy conserves

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Speaker 4: tuning it be possible from a physics point of view.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it might even be possible to do the opposite, right,

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Speaker 1: to turn physics podcasts back into bananas.

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Speaker 4: Why wouldn't that violate the laws I don't know of

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Speaker 4: physics because imagine all those thousands of people out there

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Speaker 4: with this podcast turning this into a banana.

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Speaker 1: There must be some loss, though, I think they would

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Speaker 1: end up with a smaller banana than the one you

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Speaker 1: started with.

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Speaker 4: Or overly rite banana. Maybe that's a good way to

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Speaker 4: describe for a podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you can think of iHeart meat is basically amplifying

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Speaker 1: your original banana.

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Speaker 4: That's bananas, Daniel. At least you're feeding your mind as

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Speaker 4: well as your body. Hi am poor handmade cartoonist and

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Speaker 4: the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle of physicists and a

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Speaker 1: professor at UC Irvine, and I am sending you all

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Speaker 1: physics energy.

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Speaker 4: Physics vies or knowledge is knowledge energy Daniel.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, there's a question about whether information has mass. So

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Speaker 1: if it does, then information would have energy and knowledge

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Speaker 1: is information, so in some weird theories of the universe,

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Speaker 1: maybe it does.

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Speaker 4: Wait, what information might have mass? So all those people

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Speaker 4: listening to this, we're increasing their mass.

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Speaker 1: Only if we actually put some information into this podcast.

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Speaker 1: So far, it's just one hundred percent bana.

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Speaker 4: It's like cholesterol. You know, there's good information and there's

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Speaker 4: bad information.

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Speaker 1: Which one is healthier for you. Scientists are still debating it.

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Speaker 4: Hey, yeah, stay tuned as they gather more information to

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Speaker 4: answer this question. But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel

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Speaker 4: and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we try to sift through all the information

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Speaker 1: humanity has gathered about the crazy universe that's out there.

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Speaker 1: We try to systematize, we try to organize, We try

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Speaker 1: to educate you on what we do know and what

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Speaker 1: we don't know about this crazy universe, how it works,

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Speaker 1: how things slash and flow around, how it comes together

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Speaker 1: to make this incredible, beautiful and dangerous universe that we

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Speaker 1: all love.

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Speaker 4: Wait, are you saying that our job here is to

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Speaker 4: take everything that's beautiful in the universe, chew it up,

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Speaker 4: eat it, and then regurgitate it back to people as

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Speaker 4: information edible information.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure which side it comes out, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we consume it and then produce it.

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Speaker 4: It's not a pretty picture either way, is it.

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Speaker 1: I like to think of it as all part of

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Speaker 1: the information food web. You know, don't think so much

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Speaker 1: about who is eating who as much as you know

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Speaker 1: information is flowing from person to person.

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Speaker 4: We're all just star dust and predigested information.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, although maybe you are the information super predator. You're

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Speaker 1: the apex information consumer.

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Speaker 4: Oh what I really uh and nobody has ever called

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Speaker 4: me the apex anything.

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Speaker 1: Well, think about it. You talked to lots of scientists,

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Speaker 1: and you distill from all of them little bits of

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Speaker 1: crucial science knowledge.

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Speaker 4: Wow, maybe that's why I'm so full all the time.

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Speaker 4: It's a lot of bananas to keep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That or you're just consuming all those scientists' brains effectively.

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Speaker 1: That makes you like a science zombie. I'm not sure.

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Speaker 4: Now I'm a zombie too. Oh my goodness. First I

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Speaker 4: was regurgitating. Now I'm stumbling around half dead. Actually that

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Speaker 4: that is pretty these days.

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Speaker 1: At this time in the morning. You do a good

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Speaker 1: zombie impression. Now, you told me zombies don't always stumble.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes zombies are fast moving and even articulate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's getting to zombies. Yeah, then the new

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Speaker 4: kinds of zombies are now fast and furious.

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Speaker 1: We've got a lot of response from the Zombie Star episode,

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Speaker 1: people writing in recommending zombie movies that they thought I

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Speaker 1: might enjoy.

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Speaker 4: Oh good, are you gonna watch them?

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Speaker 1: Do you need an honest answer to that question?

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Speaker 4: Well, why not?

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Speaker 1: There's too many things out there to watch. So they're

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Speaker 1: on my list, but I might not make it.

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Speaker 4: I see, that's the political answer, got it, got.

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Speaker 1: It, But thank you everyone for your suggestions. I will

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Speaker 1: get to them eventually.

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Speaker 4: Well I'm curious you know what's on that list. But

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Speaker 4: today we're talking about something a little bit different than

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Speaker 4: Zombie Stars.

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Speaker 1: That's right. We are venturing into the border between physics

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Speaker 1: and philosophy. We are not just trying to understand how

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Speaker 1: the universe work. We're trying to understand what it means,

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Speaker 1: because physics is more than just a list of laws.

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Speaker 1: It's an attempt to get some deep, intuitive understanding into

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Speaker 1: how the universe works, to reach those aha moments where

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Speaker 1: you feel like I get it, I understand Dan something

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Speaker 1: now about how the universe is doing it that I

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Speaker 1: didn't understand before.

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Speaker 4: Wait wait, wait, we're going into philosophical territory here. Can

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Speaker 4: we go back to the zombies?

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Speaker 1: Well, we can talk about philosophical zombies if you like.

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Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite topics, or.

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Speaker 4: The philosophy of zombies, Like is a zombie still a

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Speaker 4: person or not?

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Speaker 1: No, that's philosophy by zombies. You know, they have whole

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Speaker 1: journals that only zombies rite.

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Speaker 4: For Oh no, it is kind of a half to discipline. Anyways.

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Speaker 1: Now, the overlap between physics and philosophy is very healthy,

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Speaker 1: very vibrant, really fascinating, and for me, one of the

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Speaker 1: motivating aspects of physics. One reason we do physics is

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Speaker 1: to help answer questions, which, in the end are philosophical.

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Speaker 1: What does it mean to be alive? Why are we here?

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Speaker 1: What should we do with our lives? How do we

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Speaker 1: make sense of this cosmos? Those aren't science questions, but

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Speaker 1: the answers to science questions can help us understand how

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Speaker 1: to tackle those other more difficult philosophical questions.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I guess it is a pretty incredible universe

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Speaker 4: and even though we may one day understand how it

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Speaker 4: all works, there's still sort of the questions that you

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Speaker 4: can ask beyond that, beyond physics, right, like what does

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Speaker 4: it mean? Or why are we here?

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Speaker 1: And some of those questions are really simple. Sign the

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Speaker 1: questions are the kind of questions you often ask me

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Speaker 1: when I start talking about something complicated and you're like,

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Speaker 1: hold on, back up, what are we even talking about?

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Speaker 1: Can you give me a definition of space or mass?

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Speaker 1: What are these things we're talking about? Do we really

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Speaker 1: understand them?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I guess, you know, you grow up in

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Speaker 4: this universe and maybe you become a physicist or not,

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Speaker 4: but you still kind of study it, and you, you know,

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Speaker 4: you start to take things a little bit for granted,

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Speaker 4: you know, in a way, you know, think about the

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Speaker 4: fact that we walk around on this planet, but why

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Speaker 4: are we stuck to this planet at all and not

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Speaker 4: floating out there in space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really important exercise to take a step

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Speaker 1: back and say, what is this thing we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: What does it really mean? What do we know about it?

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Speaker 1: What can we learn about the nature of the universe

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Speaker 1: from what we know about how these physical processes happen.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it always amazes me that there are basic concepts

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Speaker 4: in physics that physics says don't really have a good

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Speaker 4: definition for or a good explanation for. You know, we

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Speaker 4: covered a lot of them in our book We have

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Speaker 4: no idea a guy to the unknown Universe. But it's

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Speaker 4: still amazing that there are things that even we didn't

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Speaker 4: cover in that book that physicists still struggle to define.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to know what you're talking about to

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Speaker 1: sometimes accomplish something in physics. The most famous example is

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. Nobody really understands what it means, but we

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Speaker 1: can do really complicated, really accurate calculations and predictions using

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, even if we don't quite grasp what exactly

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Speaker 1: is going on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and maybe out of all those basic concepts about

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Speaker 4: the universe, there are maybe non more basic than the

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Speaker 4: idea of energy. That seems like a super duper basic

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Speaker 4: concept in physics.

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Speaker 1: It is, in fact, and it's something a lot of

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Speaker 1: listeners over the years have written in to ask us.

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Speaker 4: To talk about totally. On the podcast will be tackling

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Speaker 4: the question.

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Speaker 1: What is energy and where can we get some more

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Speaker 1: of it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not coming from a coffee cup maybe.

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Speaker 1: Or dead plants underground.

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Speaker 4: But it is kind of sort of an interesting question,

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Speaker 4: I think because it's so short, right, Like, this is

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Speaker 4: one of the shortest questions we've tackled in a long

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Speaker 4: time on this podcast. It's just three words, What is energy?

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Speaker 4: Maybe we should add a fourth one man? What is energy? Man?

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Speaker 1: What is energy? Anyway?

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Speaker 4: Maybe what? But I guess we could go deeper, we

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Speaker 4: go what.

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Speaker 1: Is Eventually we'll just be asking the question what. Maybe

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Speaker 1: that's all physics and philosophy is just responding to the

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Speaker 1: universe and going what.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but then we will, you know, like a Marvel movie,

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Speaker 4: We'll find another sequel.

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Speaker 1: We'll go with whoo where.

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Speaker 4: Or Speechless the new sequel.

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Speaker 1: But it is a really simple sounding question with a

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Speaker 1: lot of subtle nuances, which is why it took us

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Speaker 1: a little while to figure out how to attack it.

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Speaker 1: It's a short question without an easy, simple answer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was thinking about this word, and it's kind

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Speaker 4: of interesting because I think everyone you know knows the

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Speaker 4: word obviously energy and has something, you know, some intuitive

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Speaker 4: sense attached to it. But you know, if you sort

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Speaker 4: of think about what is it, it's kind of hard

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Speaker 4: to define.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're used to talking about it, you think about

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Speaker 1: it in your life. You pay for it, you use it.

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Speaker 1: But if you sit on your couch late at night

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Speaker 1: and wonder, like, what is it? It seems to have

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Speaker 1: so many form they can transform back and forth into

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Speaker 1: each other. It's a vital part of the universe. It

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Speaker 1: feels like it should be something fundamental. But is a

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Speaker 1: physical thing? Is it just a calculation that we do?

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Speaker 1: Is it a philosophical question? It's a really hard thing

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Speaker 1: to grapple with.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And even physicists in their textbooks have a sort

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Speaker 4: of a hard time pinning this down, right. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there is sort of an official definition of it, right

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Speaker 4: as the capacity to do work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there is that definition. But then you look up

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Speaker 1: the official definition of work and its energy transfer.

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Speaker 4: No a lot. It moves the bag on itself like inception.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly definition see definition. So energy is defined in

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Speaker 1: terms of work, and work is defined in terms of energy.

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Speaker 1: So like, what is this thing we're talking about?

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Speaker 4: Wow? Interesting? Yeah, because I guess that's the only way

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Speaker 4: we know how to define it.

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Speaker 1: Kind of maybe sort of, And you have to grapple

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Speaker 1: with the subtlety between physics definitions, like what we technically

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Speaker 1: mean by work and are intuitive understanding of these concepts,

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Speaker 1: because physics often repurposes a word that everybody uses in

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Speaker 1: normal language to mean something very specific and technical. For physics,

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Speaker 1: that's true for example, for work interesting.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's start to dig into this, but first, as usually,

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Speaker 4: we were wondering how many people out there had thought

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Speaker 4: about this very basic question and how many people out

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Speaker 4: there think they know the answer to this.

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Speaker 1: So thanks very much to everybody who volunteered to answer difficult,

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Speaker 1: random questions from an internet physicist. I really appreciate your work,

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Speaker 1: and if you're out there and have been listening to

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Speaker 1: the podcast and want to put your voice to these questions,

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Speaker 1: please don't be shy. Send me an email to questions

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Speaker 1: at Daniel and hy dot com.

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Speaker 4: Think about it for a second. What do you think

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Speaker 4: energy is or how would you explain it? Here's what'd

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Speaker 4: be glad to say.

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Speaker 5: I remember learning in maybe high school physics that energy

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Speaker 5: is the ability for something to do work. I think

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Speaker 5: that that's probably not nuanced enough of a definition. A

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Speaker 5: more nuanced way to look at it might be it's

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Speaker 5: something's ability to affect change, which doesn't necessarily have to

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Speaker 5: be work. In sort of like the classic physics definition.

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Speaker 1: I think energy is truly just a vibration, and the

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Speaker 1: energy potential is dictated by the field the vibration.

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Speaker 4: Or string sits with them.

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Speaker 6: I've asked this question to someone who knew a lot

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Speaker 6: about physics before, and their answer was not useful to me.

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Speaker 6: What I came away with is like, energy is potential

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Speaker 6: for things to happen, and concentrations of that potential, and

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Speaker 6: it's expressed in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 7: This feels like it should be one of those like

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Speaker 7: really easy questions to answer. Fifth creators should know this

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Speaker 7: or something, but I'm having trouble explaining it. It is

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Speaker 7: a force, like but needed to create force. I mean,

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Speaker 7: I think of going down to like the atomic level,

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Speaker 7: energy is like the movement of electrons.

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Speaker 8: Intuitively, when I think of energy, I think about vibrating particles,

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Speaker 8: and faster they're vibrating, the faster more energy they have.

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Speaker 8: But I guess at a more fundamental level, energy is

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Speaker 8: about probably fields, and like how much energy is in

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Speaker 8: a certain field, dictating what kind of particle is and

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Speaker 8: what that particle is doing.

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Speaker 1: I think energy is just like tiny movement of particles

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Speaker 1: that gets passed along from particle to.

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Speaker 9: Particle energy is the opposite side of the coin is mass.

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Speaker 9: But my guess as you're referring to the fundamental building

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Speaker 9: blocks of energy, and I'm not sure what those could be.

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Speaker 4: All Right, interesting answers, pretty deep ones too. A lot

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Speaker 4: of people are like, it's a vibe, man, it's a mood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and some people giving examples of what energy is

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Speaker 1: and some people talking about the different forms of it.

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Speaker 1: It's a really interesting answers here. Thanks everyone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and some people even sort of went with the

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Speaker 4: official definition, which is that it's related to your ability

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Speaker 4: to do work or to make work or change work.

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Speaker 4: But did you follow up with them?

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Speaker 8: Then?

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Speaker 4: What does work mean?

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Speaker 10: No?

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Speaker 1: I don't actually have live conversations with these folks. It's

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Speaker 1: just via email. When I do interviews on campus, then

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Speaker 1: I can ask fun follow up questions like does that

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Speaker 1: scare you? Are you worried about that? But here I

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Speaker 1: just give them the one shot.

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Speaker 4: Oh I see, I see, I see you try and

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Speaker 4: still fear in them.

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Speaker 1: No, I try to be friendly and not instilled fear

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Speaker 1: in them over email. In person, yeah, absolutely, I'll put

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Speaker 1: them on the spot.

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Speaker 4: All right. Well, it's a tricky subject, and I think

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Speaker 4: as we'll find out it's something that has some deep

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Speaker 4: mysteries about it. Right, It's not an easy answer, not

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Speaker 4: an easy answer, all right, Well, Daniel's step us through.

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Speaker 4: What are some of the first things that physicists think

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Speaker 4: of when they think of energy?

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Speaker 1: So right off the bat, we should just admit that

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Speaker 1: we don't fundamentally know what energy is.

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Speaker 4: Wait, what we're done with the podcast?

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Speaker 1: Boom, that's it.

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Speaker 4: Nobody knows that's it.

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Speaker 1: We know some things about it, we figured some things out.

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Speaker 1: We can use those to piece together a picture of

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Speaker 1: what it might be and what that means, But fundamentally

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Speaker 1: it remains a philosophical mystery what energy is. First, maybe

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Speaker 1: I should put the question back on you and ask, like,

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Speaker 1: what kind of answer do people expect? Like what kind

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Speaker 1: of answer would be satisfying? What is this sort of

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Speaker 1: nature of the question we're even asking? You want to

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Speaker 1: know if energy is like a thing that flows, or

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Speaker 1: if it's made out of little energy ons or just

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Speaker 1: like a concise definition of what this thing is.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean you sort of give it away, you

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Speaker 4: kind of spoil the answer for me here and maket

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Speaker 4: t thing me not want to try. I mean, if

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Speaker 4: you guys don't know what it is? Would I know?

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Speaker 4: But it's kind of an interesting question, I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: at the base of it, I think most people think

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Speaker 4: of energy as like the opposite of not moving, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like it's the opposite of standing

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Speaker 4: still and not doing anything. Like if you have energy,

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Speaker 4: then you're doing something, You're doing work, I.

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Speaker 1: Guess, yeah. And I think that a lot of the

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Speaker 1: concepts about energy start from examples. Think some of the

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Speaker 1: difficulty comes from the fact that you can put lots

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Speaker 1: of different kinds of examples together and then wonder like

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Speaker 1: what do they all have in common? You know, if

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Speaker 1: mass is energy or this is energy, then what do

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Speaker 1: they all have in common? And so maybe we should

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Speaker 1: start with sort of like the history of the idea

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Speaker 1: of the development of energy, how people discover different forms

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Speaker 1: of energy and then talk about the common thread between them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, sure, well I was thinking kind it's kind

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Speaker 4: of like maybe the opposite of the phrase nothing happens,

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Speaker 4: Like if nothing happens, ever, then there's no energy, but

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Speaker 4: if things happen, then there's energy. It's like maybe related

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Speaker 4: to the word happening.

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Speaker 1: That's possibly true, but there are subtle wrinkles there, Like

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Speaker 1: you could have a universe with a lot of energy

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Speaker 1: but no free energy, like the heat death of the universe,

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Speaker 1: nothing can really happen. But there is a lot of

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Speaker 1: energy in the universe, there's just none available to do

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Speaker 1: work because there's no energy gradients.

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Speaker 4: So there are different kinds of energy.

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Speaker 1: There are different kinds of energy, And fundamentally, the game

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Speaker 1: we're playing here is that we're looking around in the

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Speaker 1: universe and we're coming up with ways to do calculations,

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Speaker 1: and we're wondering do those mean anything? And energy in

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Speaker 1: that sense isn't like something physical. It's an observation we

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Speaker 1: make about the universe. Like I can look at a

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Speaker 1: physical system, you know, the Earth moving around the Sun,

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Speaker 1: and I can do a calculation that could say, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to define some quantity. I call it energy,

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Speaker 1: and here's how I calculate it. I take the velocity i'

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Speaker 1: multiplied by the mass I add this. I add that

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Speaker 1: that's the something I invented. Call it energy. And most

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Speaker 1: of the time, if you just invent a quantity, it's

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Speaker 1: not interesting or useful. It doesn't reveal anything about the universe.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes it does, and it does especially when it

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Speaker 1: seems like it might be and served when you've constructed

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Speaker 1: this quantity which seems to like not change as time

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Speaker 1: goes on through the universe.

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Speaker 4: Mmmm. Well, that's an interesting concept to think about. How

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Speaker 4: they came up how humans came up with the word, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: did we come up with that a word for energy

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Speaker 4: before science even you know what I mean? Like, I

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Speaker 4: wonder if Caveman had a phrase or a word for

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Speaker 4: this idea of things happening or energy.

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Speaker 1: I think Caveman had teenagers, and teenagers didn't get out

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Speaker 1: of the cave very early in the morning, and people

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Speaker 1: wondered if they needed more energy. I'm sure that you

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Speaker 1: know the intuitive concept of feeling like you have energy

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Speaker 1: or you're tired. That's an age old idea for sure.

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Speaker 8: Mmm.

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Speaker 4: So we probably had a word for it, and then

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Speaker 4: people started to use it in physics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and scientifically, one of the first concepts that was

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Speaker 1: developed was kinetic energy. So you got to go back

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Speaker 1: to people like Leibnitz. It was Newton's contemporary and you know,

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Speaker 1: also developed calculus, and like Newton, he also did a

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Speaker 1: bit of physics, right, and so Leibnitz noticed that things

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Speaker 1: moved that there's motion. And he came up with this

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Speaker 1: quantity mass times velocity times velocity again, so MV squared.

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Speaker 1: And he said, this thing seems to be conserved. He

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Speaker 1: called this thing vis visa like a living force, and

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Speaker 1: so he essentially stumbled across the definition of kinetic energy

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Speaker 1: and said, hey, here's a quantity which is interesting because

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Speaker 1: it seems to be conserved. It seems like as time

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Speaker 1: passes and you recalculate this quantity, it doesn't change, right.

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Speaker 4: But I guess maybe a question is how did he

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Speaker 4: notice that it was conserved? Like why did he pick

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Speaker 4: MV squared? As the quantity that was conserved was just

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Speaker 4: something specific he was studying.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know why. He was just sort of like

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Speaker 1: playing around, you know, sort of like a discovery in mathematics.

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Speaker 4: But what do you mean it play around with what?

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Speaker 1: You know? By that time, people didn't understand motion. Newton

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Speaker 1: hadn't developed his laws yet, so people were just like

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Speaker 1: multiplying random stuff together and seeing what it could do.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's not that many ways to combine basic

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Speaker 1: quantities mass and velocity in these things, and so it's

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Speaker 1: not that hard to study them, you know. The English

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Speaker 1: channel Newton was studying momentum mass times velocity. So lifness

443
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: has just multiplied it by velocity one more time. I'm

444
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 1: sure he studied other quantities like mass squared times velocity.

445
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 1: Now that didn't have any interesting properties.

446
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 4: You make it sound like a bunch of monkeys in

447
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 4: an infinite room piping out a typewriter.

448
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,640
Speaker 1: It's a bunch of grad students in an infinite room,

449
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 1: and they all come with one quantity and they're like, Oh,

450
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 1: this one's not interesting. Oh look at this one. This

451
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 1: one seems to be conserved. I wonder what that means.

452
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 4: But I guess. I mean, like, what did he see

453
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 4: it conserved in? Do you know what I mean? Like

454
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 4: he calculated in for one thing and then for another,

455
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 4: and then he saw that it was the same. I guess,

456
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 4: But what was that thing?

457
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 1: Yes, So, for example, physicists of this age like to

458
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 1: do calculations about billiard balls. Right now, billiards is a

459
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 1: very very old game. So you can take the kinetic

460
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 1: energy at the first ball and then it hits another one,

461
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: maybe it has a different mass, but you notice that

462
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 1: the kinetic energy is conserved, and so you can do

463
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 1: simple calculations there and see that kinetic energy is conserved

464
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: in these systems.

465
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 4: Mmmm, so like after a collision. Then they know it

466
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 4: is said that this quantity seems to stay the same,

467
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 4: like you added up at the beginning for the two balls,

468
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 4: and then you add it up at the end for

469
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 4: the two balls, and it seemed to be the same.

470
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 4: Is that what happened? Because if you look at the velocities,

471
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 4: the velocities don't stay the same.

472
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: That's right, the velocities do not stay the same unless

473
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: the two masses are the same. But like the really

474
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 1: slow moving massive ball bumps into a very light ball,

475
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,360
Speaker 1: a low mass ball, that low mass ball will fly

476
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: off at higher speeds, and so you're right, velocity isn't conserved.

477
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: But this weird combination of mass and velocity squared did

478
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: seem to be conserved. So that was sort of like

479
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: an experimental discovery that lightning it's made. And you know,

480
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: this idea of conservation means it might be something important,

481
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 1: it might be something like fundamental to the universe. It's like,

482
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: there's the philosophy aspect to it. Right, just because something

483
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 1: is conserved, why do we care? Because it reveals something

484
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: about the inner workings of the universe. I think about

485
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: this sometimes an analogy to other systems, like economics, or

486
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: like the water system. You know, like water goes through

487
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 1: lots of different forms. It rains into the ocean and

488
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,959
Speaker 1: evaporates back up in the clouds, it flows down rivers,

489
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: but in the end, the water is the water, right.

490
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: It's changing, it's transforming, but it's flowing through the system.

491
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: The amount of water isn't changing. So that tells you that,

492
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: like water is deeply important to this whole cycle. Right,

493
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: if you identify a quantity which is conserved in physical processes,

494
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: you get the sense that maybe it's important.

495
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 7: Right.

496
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 4: I think what you're saying is that sometimes we notice

497
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 4: that there are things that sort of don't disappear, like

498
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 4: you're saying water. In the water cycle, water, it changes

499
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 4: shape and it changes forms and it changes states, but

500
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 4: it's still sort of like you know, the water, the

501
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 4: molecules don't disappear. And maybe in the case of the

502
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 4: billiard balls, that you notice that this quantity, like if

503
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 4: you compute it, it's there in the beginning and it's

504
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 4: there at the end, and somehow it got like transform.

505
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 4: So maybe it's like a thing itself.

506
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, because It's easy to think of counterexamples, like the

507
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: number of bananas. Right, the number of bananas is not

508
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: constant in the universe. You can make more bananas, you

509
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: can eat bananas, right, They can disappear, they can be destroyed,

510
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: they can be created. Right. The number of bananas is

511
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: not fundamentally interesting to the universe, even if it might

512
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: be personally interesting to various people.

513
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 4: Well that you know, right, Daniel, Like maybe they're you

514
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 4: haven't surted the whole universe. Maybe every time someone eats

515
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: a banana here, a banana is born in another planet

516
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 4: somewhere in the universe.

517
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: Right, you don't know exactly. And if you discovered that

518
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: to be true, that would mean something deep about bananas

519
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 1: and the relationship to the universe. That would be a

520
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:20,640
Speaker 1: huge discovery.

521
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 4: That would be crazy, wouldn't it, Like somehow the universe

522
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 4: likes to keep the same number of bananas all the time.

523
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 4: That would be weird, Right, And if you eat a

524
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 4: banana here or destroy it or make a banana smoothie,

525
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 4: another bananas born somewhere, that would be really strange.

526
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: That would be very strange, and it would be a

527
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: big clue. It would say the universe is kind of

528
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: banana e or bananas are fundamental to the universe. So

529
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: when you discover conserved quantity something the universe maintains, then

530
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: you're seeing something about the inner workings of the universe.

531
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: It's revealing to you what's important. It's like how water

532
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: is important in the water cycle, whereas clouds are not.

533
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: So if kinetic energy is conserved life and it's thought, well,

534
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: this must be an important.

535
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: Thing, you know. I think if you tell anyone these days,

536
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 4: like hey, energy is concern or waterson serve, nobody would

537
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 4: blink and I But if you tell them like, hey,

538
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 4: did you know the universe conserves bananas, that would be

539
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 4: a big revelation about the universe, just like how we

540
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 4: should look at energy and water as being kind of

541
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 4: a big deal. Right.

542
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just in case anybody's being misled, As far

543
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: as we know, the universe does not conserve bananas, as

544
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: far as we know. Yes, as far as we know.

545
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: For example, I'm pretty sure there were billions of years

546
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: in which they were exactly zero bananas in the universe

547
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: that you know of that I know of. Yes, But

548
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: maybe all the bananas that are appearing on Earth mean

549
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 1: that their anti bananas being created on alien worlds somewhere

550
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: else to balance.

551
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 4: That, or I think you're saying what happened before the

552
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 4: Earth was for maybe there were other planets with bananas.

553
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 4: I'm just saying, keep an open mind.

554
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: You're saying bananas could predate the Earth.

555
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's my theory of bananas.

556
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: Well, I think your philosophy is bananas. Yeah.

557
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 4: But anyways, I think obviously trying to make the point

558
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 4: that you know, we should be sort of amaze in

559
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: awe at the fact that energy seems to be considered

560
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 4: in that water and for example, the water cycle is

561
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 4: conserved because it doesn't have to, right. I think that's

562
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 4: what you're saying too.

563
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can come up with all sorts of quantities,

564
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: you can define them, and most of them are not conserved.

565
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: So when you find one that is that tells you

566
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: you're onto something, it's a really interesting clue.

567
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 4: All right. So then I guess at Leipnez called this energy?

568
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 4: Did he coin the phrase or was he the first

569
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 4: one to use it on Envy Square? Did he call

570
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 4: it kinetic energy? Also?

571
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: No, he called it vis visa, which is I think

572
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: Latin for like a living force. And you know, now

573
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: we know that kinetic energy on its own isn't actually conserved.

574
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: I mean, under certain assumptions. It is. In elastic collisions

575
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: where you don't break things up, kinetic energy is conserved.

576
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: But on its own, kinetic energy more generally isn't conserved.

577
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 4: Of course, And I think Newton was mostly looking at momentum, right,

578
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 4: because that one is conserved in most collisions.

579
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, momentum is actually conserved. So Newton's combination of kinematic

580
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: variables mass, time's velocity, momentum, this thing actually is conserved.

581
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: But again, at the time, nobody knew why it wasn't

582
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: until we had a great mathematical genius a couple hundred

583
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: years later who told us about the connections between conservation

584
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: laws and symmetries. How these conservation laws reveal deep symmetries

585
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: of the universe.

586
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 4: Well, I mean that's what they thought, was that the

587
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 4: fundamental law of the universe, right, that momentum is conserved.

588
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, momentum conservation was discovered before we understood what it

589
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: meant and why we have it, what symmetry of the

590
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: universe creates it. We just did a whole podcast episode

591
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: about why momentum is conserved. It's really fun and deep topic.

592
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 4: Okay, so that's one kind of energy. What were some

593
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 4: of the other kinds of energy we've discovered.

594
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: So there's a second kind of energy, potential energy, which

595
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: is a different kind of energy from kinetic energy and

596
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: something I've never really been comfortable with.

597
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 4: Wait, what potential energy makes you uncomfortable? You don't like

598
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,959
Speaker 4: the idea of potential I don't want any surprises. Just

599
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 4: give me straight up energy.

600
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, potential energy is weird and confusing. It's definitely a

601
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: different kind of energy than kinetic energy, but it's also

602
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: closely related to kinetic energy because while kinetic energy by

603
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: itself isn't conserved, some kinetic lust potential that is conserved

604
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: in the universe.

605
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 11: Mmmm.

606
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 4: Interesting. Well, okay, let's get into the details of that,

607
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 4: and I want to know why it makes you uncomfortable.

608
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 4: But first, let's take a quick break.

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660
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: impact of each and every bite. But the people in

661
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: the dairy industry are. US Dairy has set themselves some

662
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: ambitious sustain ability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by

663
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: twenty to fifty. That's why they're working hard every day

664
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources,

665
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example,

666
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: most dairy farms reuse water up to four times the

667
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

668
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases?

669
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

670
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: maneure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and

671
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

672
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone. Know that

673
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

674
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy

675
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: products we love with less of an impact. Visit usdairy

676
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

677
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 4: All Right, we're talking about energy, and it's been a

678
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 4: very energetic discussion here, Daniel. We talked about how you know,

679
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 4: humans when we start to try to understand the world.

680
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 4: We came up with this idea of energy because it

681
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 4: seems to be conserved in some circumstances, and that was

682
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 4: kinetic energy. But there's also potential energy, which is kind

683
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: of a weird concept in physics, Right, it makes you uncomfortable.

684
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a weird concept in physics, but it's

685
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: also something sort of intuitive. Like let's say you have

686
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: a banana on the top of a bookshelf and it's

687
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: just sitting there right, not doing anything, and you bump

688
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: it and it falls off before it hits the ground.

689
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: It's going pretty fast, so it has kinetic energy. Where

690
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: did that kinetic energy come from? Right? It came from

691
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: its height, It came from the fact that it was

692
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: sitting high up above the ground, and it turned that

693
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: height in the gravitational field into energy. So that's the

694
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: potential energy of the banana getting turned into kinetic energy

695
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: of the banana. So it's definitely energy because you can

696
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: transform it into kinetic energy into motion. But it's sort

697
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: of weird because it's energy of its location. It's energy

698
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: of its configuration.

699
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 4: Right right. I think that's where the name potential comes from. Like,

700
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 4: it doesn't really have energy right now. It's just sitting

701
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 4: on the table. It doesn't really it's not really moving,

702
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 4: but it has the potential to move a lot.

703
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's tempting to describe it that way,

704
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: but it really is energy. Potential. Energy is not just

705
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: like the potential to have energy. It comes from energy

706
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: of a potential. Potential is the way we describe how

707
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: I field impacts a force on an object, Like an

708
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: electron moving through a potential you know, feels.

709
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 4: A force, right. But I think you're getting mixed up,

710
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 4: you know, kind of tripped up here because you're saying

711
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 4: it's in a potential because it has the potential to move,

712
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 4: to cause it to move, you know what I mean,

713
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 4: It's like a circular definition.

714
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has the potential to move exactly. So we

715
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: don't really know what this stuff is. Potential energy. I

716
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: always found it really strange. Mostly it makes me uncomfortable

717
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: because it doesn't really have a value in itself. It's relational,

718
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: Like the banana. How much potential energy does it have

719
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: at the top of the bookshelf. We don't know. There's

720
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: no number, but it has more potential energy than at

721
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: the bottom of the bookshelf. So potential energy is only

722
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: important in differences. You could add an arbitrary number to

723
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: the potential energy of the banana at the bookshelf. Doesn't matter.

724
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: The only thing that matters is how much more potential

725
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 1: energy it has at the top and the.

726
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 4: Bottom, right, Like it's a relative quantity kind of like

727
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 4: it depends on where you measure it. If you measure

728
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 4: it from the floor, it's one thing. If you're measured

729
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 4: from the table, it's zero.

730
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's sort of like velocity in that sense. It's

731
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: no meaning to say you're moving at a certain speed.

732
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: You're only moving at a certain speed relative to something else.

733
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: The banana has potential energy relative to the floor. And

734
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: something that's fascinating is that it's very easy to see

735
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: kinetic energy and potential energy sloshing back and forth into

736
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: each other. If you have, for example, a ball and

737
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: you drop it, then its potential energy is getting turned

738
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: into kinetic energy, and then it gets turned around when

739
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: it hits the floor, and it's kinetic energy then gets

740
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: turned back into potential energy as it climbs back up

741
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: to your hand. And if there wasn't friction or air resistance,

742
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: then it would just go on forever, smoothly sliding back

743
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 1: between the two different forms of energy.

744
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 4: Right like if it was jumping on an infinite trampoline,

745
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 4: kind of like a perfect trampoline, this energy would, like

746
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 4: the kinetic energy would appear and appear and disappear, and

747
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 4: the potential energy would also appear and disappear, but it

748
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 4: would always add up to the same thing.

749
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: It would always add up to the same thing. And

750
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: a trampoline is a great example because it's basically like

751
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: a spring. Springs have potential energy in them also, right

752
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: you squeeze a spring that takes energy, and now the

753
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: energy you put into squeezing it is somehow stored in

754
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: the spring. In the arrangement of the spring, the compactification

755
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: of those bonds that would prefer to be relaxed, and

756
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: so that's the same kind of energy. You can put

757
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: it into a gravitational field, you can put it into

758
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: a spring, you can put it into a squeezing of

759
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: a ball, which is basically another spring, And so all

760
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: these things are potential energy.

761
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 4: Right, And in that sense, you can sort of think

762
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 4: of it as a thing. Right, it's just the thing

763
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 4: that changes from being kinetic to being potential. Like it's

764
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 4: somehow there and it's always conserved.

765
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: But is it a thing? When you say thing, I

766
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: think something physical, you know, like water is flowing. And

767
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: for a long time people were wondering, like is energy

768
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: a thing to like flow from one thing to another?

769
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: Is it made of little energy particles? But here, because

770
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: potential energy is a kind of energy, and it's just

771
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: an arrangement of other things, then is it itself a thing

772
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: or is it just the arrangement of other things. It's complicated.

773
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 4: Hmmm, you mean, like does it have a physical embodiment

774
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 4: or is it just I don't know, like a label

775
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 4: we put on other things.

776
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a deep question. I'm not sure the answer

777
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: to the same question can be asked, like, you know,

778
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: what makes you you? You were made of the same

779
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: particles as I am, you just arranged a different way.

780
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: So the units is in the arrangement of the particles

781
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: the same way. Potential energy comes from configuration of particles together,

782
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: not the particles themselves. The potential energy isn't stored in

783
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: the particle, It's in the relationship between the particles.

784
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 4: Right, right, unless you're a zombie, in which case your

785
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 4: body is arrangement is decay. Well, I guess what about mass?

786
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 4: You know, Like, we know that mass is the same

787
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 4: as energy kind of in a way, right, according to

788
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 4: equals empty squared is mass energy.

789
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: Then I'm going to take probably surprising and weird philosophical

790
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: position here, which is that mass is not its own

791
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: kind of energy. Mass is just a representation of how

792
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: much energy is stored inside something, how much kinetic and

793
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: potential energy is in something.

794
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 4: What do you mean, Like things don't have inherent mass,

795
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 4: like don't particle from the fundamental particles and they have

796
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 4: you know, mass, Like the electron has mass, right.

797
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's break it down, Like the electron fundamentally

798
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: doesn't have mass on its own. Its mass comes from

799
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: its interactions with the Higgs field. So that's the kinetic

800
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: and potential energy of the Higgs field, which changes how

801
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: the electron moves through the universe as if it did

802
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: have mass. But if you listen to our episode on

803
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: like what is renormalization, where is the electron's true mass

804
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: in charge? Discover that fundamentally, truly, the electron and the

805
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,959
Speaker 1: other particles have no mass on their own. It's all

806
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: in their energy.

807
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 4: Right, because I guess even the electron, it's not like

808
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 4: it has a little bit of stuff in the middle.

809
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 4: It just has the potential to interact with the Higgs field,

810
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 4: and that's what we call its mass.

811
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: That's what we call its mass.

812
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 4: I act to tchuck because we're doing this podcast, but

813
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: really I do because we wrote a chapter on it

814
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 4: for our second book frequently asked questions about the universe.

815
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you think about composite particles like a proton,

816
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: a proton is made out of quarks. Those quarks have

817
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: almost no mass, but the proton has a good bit

818
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: of mass. Where does that come from? It comes from

819
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: the energy that binds those quarks together. So the proton's

820
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: mass isn't some other weird kind of mass in the universe,

821
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: not like you're converting kinetic energy into some sort of substance.

822
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: It just comes from its internal stored energy. So the

823
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: way I think about mass is sort of like an indicator.

824
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: It tells you how much energy is internally stored inside

825
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: this thing. In the end, it's all just energy. Mass

826
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: isn't its own form of energy. It just reflects how

827
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: much energy is inside something.

828
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 4: You're basically saying all mass is just potential.

829
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: Energy, potential and kinetic energy. Right. Some of the proton's

830
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: mass comes from the kinetic energy of those gluon and

831
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: quarks slashing around, So not just potential energy, but also

832
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: kinetic all right.

833
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 4: So I think what you're saying is that we're trying

834
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 4: to define energy. One way to do it is to

835
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 4: look at its different kinds, and there are really, to

836
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 4: a physic is only two kinds of energy, kinetic energy

837
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 4: and potential energy. There are no other other kinds, right,

838
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 4: are there? I mean there's dark energy.

839
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: Wow, wait to skewer us with our own terrible names.

840
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: You're totally right, but we don't know what dark energy is.

841
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: One theory is that it's like the fundamental quantum potential

842
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 1: energy of all of these fields, in which case it

843
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: would be a kind of potential energy. But we really

844
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: just don't know what dark energy is.

845
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 4: It's a big mystery, all right, So ignore the sixty

846
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 4: seven percent of the universe that is dark energy for

847
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 4: this discussion, and let's just focus on the small bit

848
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: of it that we like to talk about.

849
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: No, it's a great point, but when we do figure

850
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: out what dark energy is, either it'll be kinetic energy,

851
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: or it'll be potential energy, or it will be some

852
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: new kind of bonkers energy and I'll be wrong, in

853
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: which case I'll be the first to celebrate.

854
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 4: Well. Yeah, basically, like I said, let's just ignore the

855
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 4: sixty of the universe that is dark energy. And you know,

856
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 4: for what impacts is there's really only two kinds of energy.

857
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 4: You're saying, kinetic energy and potential energy, and that's it, right,

858
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 4: And that's kind of what goes into your basic equations

859
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 4: of the universe, right, Like, that's basically the definition of

860
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 4: the equations of the universe.

861
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: That's right. The Schrotener equation has kinetic energy plus potential

862
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: energy in it. Hamiltonian mechanics is built on that principle.

863
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: You know, Classical mechanics is based on the principle of

864
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: least action, and action in the end is defined in

865
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: terms of these two quantities, kinetic and potential energy. And

866
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: the deep mystery really is if these two things independently

867
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: are not conserved potential and kinetic energy, but together they are,

868
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: what does that mean about what they have in common?

869
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: And what is that commonality? I think that in the

870
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: end is the question what is energies? What do these

871
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: two things together? What larger picture do they make up?

872
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 4: Right? Because I think maybe that's something that maybe a

873
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 4: lot of people don't know, is that when you know,

874
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 4: when physics say, oh, the laws of the universe or

875
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 4: the equations that define the universe, really what you're talking

876
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 4: about is basically the idea that kinetic energy and potential

877
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 4: energy is conserved, because that's what you assume when you

878
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 4: formulate the laws of physics. Right, you start with, hey,

879
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 4: let's assume that kinetic and potential energy is conserve, you know,

880
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 4: and then let's see what kind of rules that gives us.

881
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: I think it actually goes the opposite direction. You can

882
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: make up laws to a universe that don't have conservation

883
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: of energy. If those laws, for example, are changing in time,

884
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: then they don't conserve energy. And one of the greatest

885
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,479
Speaker 1: insights into this relationship between conservation laws and symmetries came

886
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: when people were asking about general relativity. They're like, hold

887
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: on a second, does general relativity conserve energy? That seems

888
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: like it should be important. So we actually derive the

889
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: laws from other places and then ask like, hold on

890
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: a second, is energy conserved? What does that mean about

891
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: these things?

892
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 4: I guess I mean, like, you know, like the Hamiltonian.

893
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 4: That's basically you saying, hey, the sum of kinetic and

894
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 4: potential energy should always stay the same, and then from

895
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 4: that you derive some of these other equations.

896
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: Right, Well, there's very non satisfactory physics definition. The answer

897
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: to that, which is that once you define the Hamiltonian,

898
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: then energy is defined to be the thing that's conserved

899
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 1: if these rules don't change in time. So you sort

900
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 1: of start from the Hamiltonian and then you figure out

901
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: what is the energy of the system from that.

902
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: I guess what I'm saying is that it's a very

903
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 4: fundamental concept in how theoretical physics works. Right. It's not

904
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 4: like you assume, like, hey, let's assume it's changing. What

905
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 4: does that give us? It's like you assume that it's

906
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 4: not changing kind of.

907
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: I think there are different ways to formulate the theories

908
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: of the universe, and you can either start from the

909
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: assumption that energy is conserved figure out what rules are allowed,

910
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: or you can just start building laws and figuring out

911
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: what the consequences are and which ones actually describe our universe,

912
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: and then noticing that in the ones that describe our universe,

913
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 1: this quantity we call energy seems to be conserved. There's

914
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: some different orders you could use there, All.

915
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 4: Right, well, I guess for our discussion, the basic idea

916
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 4: is that, you know, physicists sort of describe or define

917
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 4: energy as the sum of kinetic energy plus potential energy.

918
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 4: But what you're saying is that that's kind of a

919
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 4: weird thing to do, because, like, how do you know

920
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 4: kinetic energy and potential energy have to be related.

921
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: To each other exactly? They seem like very different things, right,

922
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: What does it mean that these two very different things

923
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: are closely related? Like if you discovered, well, the number

924
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: of bananas in the universe isn't conserved, but bananas plus

925
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: apples that's conserved. That would be really interesting connection between

926
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: bananas and apples. You're like hm turns out to have

927
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: more in common than I thought.

928
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 4: Right, don't they have a kid song together? Apples and bananas?

929
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: I think we need to hear a snippet of it.

930
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 4: Go ahead, all right, can you play it for us?

931
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: I don't have my kazoo here, otherwise I would.

932
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 4: Well, I think. I think what you're saying is that

933
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 4: it's kind of weird to put them together. But if

934
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 4: you put them together, then it seems to be constant

935
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 4: in the universe, and it seems to give us these

936
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 4: equations that seem to work and seem to like predict

937
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 4: where particles are going to go and what's going to

938
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 4: happen to them, and what kinds there are even exactly.

939
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: And what that means is that they really do have

940
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: something in common. They're part of the same thing. They're

941
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: not the same thing. They're like two halves of a

942
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: puzzle that click together perfectly to make something new. And

943
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: then we have to ask the question, what does that mean?

944
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: What do they have in common? What is this larger

945
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: thing that they're a part of?

946
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 4: All right, So then are they conserved? Because I know

947
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 4: sometimes they're not conserved.

948
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: So they are conserved in the case where the laws

949
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: of physics do not change. So if the laws of

950
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,479
Speaker 1: physics you're using are the same now and the same

951
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: in ten minutes and the same in a thousand years,

952
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: then kinetic energy plus potential energy is conserved. That's absolutely true.

953
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: Now in our universe, the laws of physics are almost

954
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 1: the same from moment to moment. They're usually the same.

955
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: You can do the experiment of large hadron collider today

956
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: and tomorrow and next year and get the same measurements.

957
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 1: But there is one way in which those laws are changing,

958
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: which is that space itself is expanding. As you mentioned,

959
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: dark energy is accelerating the expansion of the uni verse,

960
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: making it bigger and bigger and changing the distances between things,

961
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: And that technically is a change in the laws of

962
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: physics as a function of time, meaning that energy is

963
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: not technically conserved. That's not really relevant for balls rolling

964
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: down planes, or bananas falling off of bookshelves, or any

965
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: experiment we are going to do. But do you want

966
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: the deepest understanding of energy. Then turns out, in our

967
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: universe it's not technically conserved but almost.

968
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 4: Right right, Well, I feel like you're maybe cheating a

969
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 4: little bit here. I feel like you're saying that we

970
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 4: have these laws that we think describe the universe, and

971
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 4: in them energy is conserved unless our laws are wrong,

972
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 4: in which case they don't and doesn't Does that make sense?

973
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 4: I feel like maybe what's really happening is that we

974
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 4: don't have the right laws of the universe, Like we

975
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 4: only have laws that seem to work for you know,

976
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 4: moment to moment, or that doesn't take into account the

977
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 4: sixty seven percent of the universe that's making it expand.

978
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 4: Really we just kind of maybe don't have the right laws.

979
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: It might also be that the laws, really we are

980
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: a function of time, right, that the way things work

981
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: changes as the universe goes on. That's just the way

982
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: the universe is.

983
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 4: Wait, what you mean like it's a function of something,

984
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 4: but it's not a function of anything.

985
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: There could be a function of time, right, But based

986
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: on what law, the laws themselves could just be a

987
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: function of time, you know why. For example, are constant's constant.

988
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: If the gravitational constant changed as a function of time,

989
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: then you could get free energy. If gravity disappeared every

990
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: Tuesday morning for an hour, then I could, with no energy,

991
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: take a big box of bananas and put it on

992
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: a bookshelf, and then when gravity came back, I could

993
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: knock it off and extract the energy from it, So

994
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: I'd have an infinite energy machine if the gravitational constant

995
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: wasn't constant. So if these constants are changing, then energy

996
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: is not concerned.

997
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 4: Right, right. But isn't that I mean, that idea that

998
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 4: you're saying, like, hey, let's just give up and stop

999
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 4: asking questions. Isn't that sort of a lot of what

1000
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 4: you talk against about? Right? Like you know, if you

1001
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 4: discovered that the laws of the universe are changing for

1002
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 4: some unknown reason, would and you want to know what

1003
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 4: that reason was?

1004
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely yes, And doesn't mean you can't find an explanation. Right.

1005
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 1: The laws can be changing, and those laws can be

1006
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: changing for a good reason. It could be like only

1007
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: one consistent way for the universe to be, and it

1008
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: requires these constants to change. Right. It's still following some

1009
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: system which is governing how those constants change. But the

1010
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: constants themselves, the ones that describe the motion of things

1011
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: and how you get equations of motion, if those are changing,

1012
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: then this quantity we call energy is not conserved.

1013
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 4: Right, right. But I guess I'm saying if there's a

1014
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 4: system that is determining how the laws of the universe

1015
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 4: are changing, then maybe that system is the real, true,

1016
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 4: you know, set of equations that govern the universe.

1017
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: Sure, absolutely, and they could be like the true system

1018
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 1: that governs these laws. But the ones that determine how

1019
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: things move, right, that determine motion of things through the universe.

1020
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: If those laws are a function of time because they're

1021
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: controlled by some super deep meta laws. Right. If those

1022
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: laws that determine how things move through the universe, if

1023
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: those are changing, then energy is not served.

1024
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 4: Well, I think we're getting a little bit lost because

1025
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 4: we're talking about energy. I think what you're saying is

1026
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 4: that energy is conserved if you look at it locally,

1027
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 4: like our little you know, what we've see of the

1028
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 4: universe and what loss we've coupled together. But if you

1029
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 4: look at the big, big picture, energy is not conserved,

1030
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 4: which kind of makes you wonder, like what it is

1031
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 4: right exactly? It throws into question even more are ideas

1032
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 4: of it and points of the fact that we don't

1033
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 4: really know what it is because it's not even conserved

1034
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 4: like we thought it was exactly.

1035
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: And it also questions like how important is it one

1036
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: of the reasons we thought it was important because it's

1037
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: because we thought it was conserved and we thought it

1038
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: was a deep truth in the universe. It revealed something fundamental.

1039
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: If it's not actually conserved, you means it's maybe not

1040
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: as important as we thought.

1041
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 4: Mmmm, right right, It points like maybe it's just the

1042
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 4: pawn in the you know, meta law of the universe

1043
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 4: that we have no idea about so far.

1044
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: Exactly, it's just like a lowly fruit like a cherry,

1045
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: instead of the legal banana.

1046
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 4: Instead of the legal banana, exactly, the all important binna. Yes,

1047
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 4: all right, Well, let's get into a little bit more

1048
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 4: about what we don't know about the definition of energy

1049
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 4: and what it could all mean.

1050
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 7: Man.

1051
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: But first, let's take another quick break. When you pop

1052
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: a piece of cheese into your mouth, or enjoy a

1053
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,399
Speaker 1: rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably not thinking about

1054
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: the environmental impact of each and every bite. But the

1055
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: people in the dairy industry are us. Dairy has set

1056
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:33,280
Speaker 1: themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral

1057
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working hard every

1058
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: day to find new ways to reduce waste conserve natural

1059
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: resources and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example,

1060
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: most dairy farms reuse water up to four times the

1061
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

1062
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases?

1063
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

1064
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and

1065
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,439
Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

1066
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that

1067
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

1068
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy

1069
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: products we love with less of an impact. Visit usdairy

1070
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 1: dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

1071
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,040
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1086
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,319
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1087
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1088
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1089
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1090
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1091
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1092
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Speaker 13: back the same team.

1093
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1094
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1095
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1099
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1100
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1101
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1102
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1103
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1104
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1115
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Speaker 9: All right.

1116
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 4: Welcome back to Daniel and Jorge argue about energy when

1117
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 4: one of us is a physicist and the other one

1118
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 4: is not clearly, but I've guess I'm getting the picture

1119
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 4: that you know, we kind of thought we knew what

1120
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 4: energy was. We thought it was this fundamental thing that

1121
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 4: always seems to be conserved. But it turns out that

1122
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 4: it's not always conserved. So now maybe it's not only

1123
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 4: do we not know what it is, but maybe it's

1124
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 4: not even fundamental.

1125
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, and it's sort of disappointing because even

1126
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: a small amount of non conservation means it's just not conserved.

1127
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: You know, there's like two things, things are conserved and

1128
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: things that are not. There's a whole bunch of categories

1129
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: of things that are not concerned, and being almost conserved

1130
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: means I guess you're important but not really truly fundamental.

1131
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 4: All right, Well, then what would you say energy is?

1132
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: Then I would say I wish I knew, and it's

1133
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,720
Speaker 1: something definitely deep and interesting in the universe. Right, It's

1134
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: something that is almost conserved, and it can slosh back

1135
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: and forth between these two different kinds of things that

1136
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: feel very, very different. What is energy? The philosophical question

1137
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: really is what do kinetic and potential energy have in common?

1138
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: What are they part of? When you put them together

1139
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: in the same way that you can put electricity and

1140
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: magnetism together into a holistic thing and get an understanding

1141
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: of electromagnetism, you're like, oh, that explains this and that

1142
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: and brings all these ideas together. You have a feeling

1143
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: of having an answer. If we understood how kinetic energy

1144
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: and potential energy fit together into one holistic thing. We'll

1145
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,240
Speaker 1: be able to grapple better with this question.

1146
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 4: I feel like you're saying, like, maybe even the word

1147
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,479
Speaker 4: energy is a little distracting from the real question, which

1148
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 4: is like why is there a relationship between you know,

1149
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 4: motion and potential in a way, or or even like

1150
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 4: why does potential exist at all?

1151
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: Exactly? And you can try to tease it apart by

1152
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: looking at the equations of motion and saying, like, what

1153
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: is it that defines how things move? And why can

1154
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 1: this weird quantity slash back and forth? And one way

1155
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: to get a little bit of insight into it is

1156
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: to understand that potential really is also about motion, Like

1157
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: potential energy is what causes forces. Right, the reason that

1158
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: the banana falls off the bookshelf and accelerates towards the

1159
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: floor is because there's a gravitational force there. There's a

1160
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: force there because there's a difference in the potential. So

1161
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: you can think about it in terms of kinetic energy

1162
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: and potential energy. You can also think about it in

1163
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: terms of like motion and forces. Like a particle just

1164
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: flying through the universe, it just has kinetic energy. Now

1165
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: add other particles interacting with it putting forces on it.

1166
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: Those are creating potential energy for that particle. So in

1167
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: some sense, it's not kinetic energy and potential energy, it's

1168
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: kinetic energy and other forces changing its kinetic energy.

1169
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 4: I think what you're saying is that maybe there's really

1170
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 4: only motion and potential motion, Like there's only motion in

1171
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 4: the universe. And then there's what happens when two things

1172
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 4: that have motion kind of bump into each other somehow,

1173
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 4: for some reason, they interact in a way that creates

1174
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 4: potential But really you're just talking about motion and what

1175
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 4: happens in that interaction exactly.

1176
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: And this is the philosophical process of sort of stumbling

1177
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 1: towards a deeper concept. They're trying to understand what these

1178
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 1: things have in common and generalize it into an idea

1179
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 1: that really fits together, that can hold as a bucket

1180
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: all these different concepts that we consider energy in its properties,

1181
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 1: and it's connected to this other question we talked about,

1182
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: like our fields.

1183
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 4: Real Well, it sort of sounds like you're saying that

1184
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 4: maybe there's only really kinetic energy, right Like, there's only

1185
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 4: kinetic energy, and there's also what happens when two things

1186
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 4: that have kinetic energy interact with each other, right Like,

1187
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 4: it sounds like maybe potential energy is really just about

1188
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 4: motion and interactions, and so you've got to ask, like

1189
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 4: why does the universe have motion and why does it

1190
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 4: have interactions? Like right, right, if it didn't have interactions,

1191
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 4: everyone would just fly around by themselves. There would just

1192
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 4: be kinetic energy and that would never change. But it

1193
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 4: changes because we have these interactions in the universe.

1194
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:10,760
Speaker 1: And that goes to like an even more abstract question,

1195
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: which is like why do you consider things as interacting?

1196
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: That assumes that there's different things that you can say,

1197
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 1: like there's this one thing and that other thing, Well,

1198
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: how do you draw the line between them? Right, it's

1199
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: like one half of the Earth interacting with the other

1200
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: half of the Earth. How do you slice that? Why

1201
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: do you call the Earth one thing and not two things?

1202
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,919
Speaker 1: And anytime your ideas are based on totally arbitrary designations

1203
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: like that like this is a thing, but that's not

1204
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 1: a thing, or this is two things, then you know

1205
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,959
Speaker 1: that you're looking at it the wrong way. I think

1206
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: the work that's left to be done is to understand

1207
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:40,439
Speaker 1: this as one holistic thing.

1208
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 4: You know, what is it.

1209
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: Really that's flowing between two objects where one is in

1210
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: motion and then another one is in motion. How is

1211
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: that flowing? Is it really changing into a different kind

1212
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: of energy or is there one holistic, super kind of

1213
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: idea there that you can understand connects these two things.

1214
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 4: Right, right, Like, maybe there aren't humans and zombiests. Maybe

1215
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 4: maybe we're all just human and the z obviously just

1216
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 4: have the potential to eat humans.

1217
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 1: Exactly. Maybe before you eat the banana, the banana is

1218
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: already kind of part of you, you know, or hey,

1219
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: plus banana is already the thing before you eat the banana.

1220
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 4: I think what you're saying is that, you know, we

1221
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 4: talk about kinetic energy and potential energy, but really maybe

1222
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 4: there's just part of the same thing, like motion plus interactions.

1223
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: Right, If I zoom in on a particle like a

1224
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: proton and say, oh, look, those quarks have kinetic energy

1225
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: inside of them. But if I zoom out and just

1226
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: look at the proton, I'm like, oh no, the protons

1227
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: at rest, it has no kinetic energy. So how much

1228
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: kinetic energy there is depends on what I'm defining to

1229
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: be a thing or not. It seems sort of arbitrary,

1230
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: and I think that's the biggest clue that will lead

1231
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: us to a deeper understanding of energy, but I don't

1232
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: have that understanding today.

1233
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 4: Well, let's touch a little bit into the scenario that

1234
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 4: you mentioned earlier in the episode, which is the end

1235
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 4: of the universe, and that maybe one potential end of

1236
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 4: the universe is the heat death of the universe, where

1237
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 4: you know, everything has energy, but nothing can happen everything.

1238
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 4: You know, particles are moving like a gas, and so

1239
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 4: there's definitely energy there, but no potential energy. Is that

1240
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 4: what you're saying that there's it's a scenario where there's

1241
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 4: no potential energy left in the universe.

1242
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's useful energy, and then there's sort of useless energy.

1243
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: Useful energy is energy you can use to do work,

1244
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: to like move something up a potential for example. And

1245
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: you know if you have energy in a battery, you

1246
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: can take that energy and use it to power an

1247
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: engine and that can like push your banana up off

1248
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: the floor back to the top of the bookshelf. That's

1249
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: useful energy, and that only happens when you have energy

1250
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: localized somewhere right when you have low entropy, when there's

1251
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: organization of stuff. Opposite of that is useless energy energy

1252
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: like heat if everything is just hot and everything is

1253
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: the same temperature. There's no temperature difference, there's no energy ingredients.

1254
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: You can't use that to power an engine. Like if

1255
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: you have an engine and you're in a universe where

1256
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: everything is smooth but hot, there's no way to take

1257
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: that energy. There's motion of the particles and turn that

1258
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: into something useful. So the key idea there is entropy.

1259
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 4: Entropy, right, Yeah, there's like everything's a hot mess, what

1260
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 4: you're saying, a bland hot mess. But wouldn't I guess

1261
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 4: even in that in an area, wouldn't gravity eventually kind

1262
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 4: of brings stuff together, creating potential energy, or like, how

1263
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 4: does gravity disappear in this scenario?

1264
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: Gravity doesn't disappear, but it can't do anything in that

1265
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: scenario because everything is smooth and homogeneous. Gravity requires some

1266
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: clump to get things started. Like in the early universe,

1267
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 1: we didn't have a smooth and homogeneous blob of stuff

1268
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: in the very beginning. We had little quantum fluctuations, little

1269
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 1: bits of over density and under density that gravity grabbed

1270
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: onto and exaggerated. But if you have the true heat

1271
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: death of the universe, where everything is spread out equally,

1272
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: then every particle feels the same gravitational pull in every direction,

1273
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: so it basically cancels out.

1274
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 4: What does this idea of entropy, How does that impact

1275
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 4: our definition of energy, like, maybe it's not real or something.

1276
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: Well, folks who love and understand thermyonnemics have different definitions

1277
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: of energy. There's energy in general, and then there's free energy,

1278
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: which is sort of like an energy available to do

1279
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: useful work.

1280
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 4: And then there's also discounted energy and energy on sale.

1281
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: And then there's free lunch, which apparently doesn't even.

1282
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 4: Exist that we know of. But as you said, the

1283
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 4: universe is changing, Daniel. Maybe they'll be free lunch in

1284
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 4: the future for everyone.

1285
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: That's right, And these topics always make me uncomfortable. Thermodynamics

1286
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: is the topic of physics that I avoided as much

1287
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 1: as possible when I was taking classes.

1288
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 4: Right, that and zombie movies, or maybe they're about the

1289
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 4: same thing, right, and zombies are about decay and things

1290
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 4: I'm breaking down. Maybe this is all turned out to

1291
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 4: be a deep psychological journey into daniel psyche.

1292
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: That's right, we're understanding the conservation of Daniel's decisions.

1293
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 4: Zombies and entropy make you uncomfortable, Maybe we should dig

1294
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 4: deeper into that. Daniel does something happen in your childhood?

1295
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: Yes, zombie came an entrepeaed my bedroom when I was

1296
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: a kid, and I'm scared now.

1297
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 5: No.

1298
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 1: Thermidonamics to me is complicated because you're just so many particles.

1299
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: That's all about statistical statements of large systems of particles.

1300
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: For me, it's easier to grapple with one particle bouncing

1301
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: off another particle, because I would like to get down

1302
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: to the microscopic picture of what's really happening. And thereodynamics

1303
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: is about like zooming out and trying to make like

1304
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: broad statements about systems.

1305
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 4: It's not the same as philosophy though.

1306
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but philosophy nobody has any wrong answers.

1307
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 4: That's right, it's not verifiable. How convenient. Well, I think

1308
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 4: the overall picture I'm getting is that to answer the

1309
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 4: question what is energy, it's tough. You know, we have

1310
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 4: different labels for it. There's kinetic energies, it's potential energy.

1311
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 4: That seems to be all about there is to it,

1312
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 4: but that's not the full picture. Like it seems to

1313
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 4: be conserved, but it's not really conserved in the universe,

1314
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 4: and so maybe it's not even an important thing, or

1315
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 4: maybe it's not even a thing like maybe in the

1316
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 4: future aliens will be like, why do you guys were

1317
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 4: thinking about energy? That's like thinking about the ether or

1318
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 4: thinking about you know, the soul or something like. That's

1319
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 4: that's a thing that doesn't make sense.

1320
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely is driven from an intwo experience for

1321
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 1: the world and then try to extrapolate that to physics

1322
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: and understand if it makes sense. And it sort of

1323
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 1: kind of seems like it does, but maybe it doesn't quite.

1324
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: We definitely still have work to do. And you know,

1325
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: if you look into a physics book or google this question,

1326
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: you might find some confusing answers. Some of them are

1327
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: things like energy is the quantity that's conserved if the

1328
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: laws of physics don't change, so they're like defining it

1329
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 1: to be the conserved thing, which doesn't really tell you

1330
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: like what it is. It just tells you how Nuther's

1331
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: theorem impacts these laws of physics. It doesn't really tell

1332
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: you like what it is. I think we're still struggling

1333
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: to figure out exactly what energy is.

1334
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 4: Right, it might need to be redefined now that we

1335
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 4: sort of know and this is the only reason that

1336
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 4: we know that the universe is changing and the laws

1337
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 4: of physics are not constant.

1338
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the history of this scene over a few

1339
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: hundred years is like discovery of kinetic energy that seems

1340
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: to be conserved. Oops, no, it's not only kinetic energy,

1341
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: plus potential energy is conserved. And then Einstein's general relativity

1342
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: is a whole new system for the universe and not

1343
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,960
Speaker 1: otherther says, hold on a second, that doesn't guarantee conservation

1344
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: of energy. So people are like, oop, better patch that up,

1345
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: make sure conserve energy. And then we discover actually, it

1346
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 1: doesn't conserve energy. The universe disagrees with that whole idea.

1347
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: So it's been a lot of back and forth.

1348
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm amazed you guys still have the energy to

1349
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 4: keep at it.

1350
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: Well, somebody keeps eating bananas, and so we keep asking.

1351
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 4: Questions, Right, maybe bananas are concern Well it seems like

1352
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 4: maybe we won't define it anytime soon. But I think

1353
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 4: it sort of points to the idea that there are

1354
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 4: these deep relationships in the universe between motion and potential

1355
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 4: and fields, and we're still trying to figure out what

1356
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 4: those relationships are, because that kind of tells what's going

1357
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 4: to tell us what the true nature of the universe.

1358
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 1: Is, Yeah, and one of the deepest goals in physics

1359
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: is to come up with a concise, mathematical story about

1360
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: how the universe works in a way that makes sense

1361
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 1: to us. And that's what we're struggling with here, is

1362
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: connecting these mathematical concepts with intuitive ideas that gel with us,

1363
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: that tell us something about the nature of the universe

1364
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 1: more than just looking at the black and white equations

1365
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: on a page.

1366
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what it's all about, gelling with the universe.

1367
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 4: And eat a banana and gel and chill out.

1368
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: Exactly, But don't eat the last banana because there's a

1369
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: fixed number of them in the universe and if you

1370
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,919
Speaker 1: eat the last one, Jorge can't and then we won't

1371
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: have any more podcast.

1372
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 4: Oh no, it's an evergreen quantity, right, that's why I

1373
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 4: thought that was what we concluded.

1374
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: Now, Oh, I see, eat all the bananas you want, right,

1375
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: because somewhere, some unknown process.

1376
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 4: Is recreating that.

1377
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: That's a nice universe to live in.

1378
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, pretty bananas. All right. Well, we hope you

1379
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 4: enjoyed that discussion. Thanks for joining us, see you next time.

1380
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1381
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeart Radio. For more

1382
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1383
01:04:55,040 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you

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Speaker 1: pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably

1385
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