WEBVTT - S5 Update: Donziger Sentenced to Six Months in Jail 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.600 Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Later this week 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.880 we will have the third installment of our series with Earth, 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.439 looking at fossil fuel involvement in schools. But today we 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.640 have an update on our season five story. American attorney 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.680 Stephen Donziger, who's been on house arrest for more than 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.200 seven hundred days as a result of his involvement in 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.519 the Chevron, Ecuador case, was sentenced last week on Friday. 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:38.320 This court has already determined pre trial that mister Donziger, 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.840 if convicted, would not be sentenced to more than six 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.959 months in prison or a five thousand dollars five. 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:49.040 Donziger was given the maximum, a six month jail sentence, 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.600 despite having served, as I said, more than seven hundred 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.680 days on house arrest already. It's the sentencing that Donziger 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.000 and his team were expecting, and there are multiple appeals 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.480 underway already. We'll have updates on all of that. Our 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.280 reporter Karen Savage was in the courtroom during the sentencing. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.880 I'll be joined by her after the break. We also 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.440 talked to Donziger in the lead up to the hearing 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.880 and spoke with a few other folks after the sentencing. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.399 All of that is coming up after this quick break. 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:49.640 A long time, no talk. How are you, how have 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:50.200 you been? 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.400 You know, we continue fighting to you know, get justice 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.640 for the people of Ecuador and to you know, make 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.800 sure the lawyers, including me or protect did Obviously, this 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.320 has been a hell of an ordeal. I've been in 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.720 house arrest for two years two months on a misdemeanor. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.320 Unprecedented US history, as I think, you know, ever given 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.560 a lawyer convicted of the supposed crime that I committed 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.040 is ninety days at home detention. And again I've been 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.520 more than eight times that already and I haven't even 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.600 been sentenced. So my sentencing is next Friday. Judge Presca, 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.480 who I believe was appointed illegally by the charging judge 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.919 in a case that was rejected by the normal federal prosecutor. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.280 She's going to sentence me. She has, according to her, 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:36.920 she has the right to put me in prison for 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.440 six months on top of the two years plus of 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.360 house arrest. And We're going to go in there in 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.840 good faith and request that she let me go home 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.400 and be free, get my passport back, and continue my 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.680 human rights work. This is this length of my detention 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.600 is unprecedented, unjustified. I believe it's arbitrary, and I believe 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:58.200 it's illegal. 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.840 Right so much as happen, and since we've last talked, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.120 so not only the bench child of the conviction and the 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.520 upcoming sentencing, but you've gotten a ton of support. Can 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.840 you tell a little talk a little bit about all 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.519 the organizations and different folks that have written or expressed 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:14.600 letters of support. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.480 Sure, I have support, you know, from a lot of 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.840 people and organizations that I you know, just stepped up 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.400 because they recognize that what's happening to me is terribly 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.520 unjust and that it represents really an attack on indigenous 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.680 rights and Indigenous people who want to historic pollution judgment 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.200 against a big oil company. You know, everyone knows. I 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.560 think that looks at this that this goes way beyond 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.800 Stephen Donziger. You know, this is a wholesale attack by 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:49.000 the fossil fuel industry on the very idea of indigenous 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.560 rights and environmental justice and human rights lawyer for that matter. 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.840 So they're really using my case to try to destroy 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.800 the very idea that these types of cases can be 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.760 done and that lawyers, you know, have the right to 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.320 do these cases and you know, they're trying to create 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.920 a situation where if I, if a lawyer in this case, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.280 me can be detained at home for over two years 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.440 for winning a human rights case against an oil company. 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.240 No one will do the work and the industry will 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.279 have fewer these types of challenges and courts, you know, 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.760 not just in the United States, but all over the world. 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.200 So there's an industry wide strategy to the attacks on me. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.320 They're being facilitated by two US federal judges who are 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.240 come out of the federalist society, and they're very pro 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:40.440 corporate and I believe they're abusing their power. And you 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.080 know what we're seeing now in the United States is 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.679 you know the trend that sort of has been going 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:51.480 on in other countries like China and Russia and Hungary 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.880 and Saudi Arabia and Brazil now of you know, authoritarian 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:01.000 leaders using the courts and criminal cases, it's fake criminal 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:05.039 cases to attack their political opponents. That's now happening here 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.880 and you see it in my case, not so much 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.760 the government but Chevron. You know, the fossil fuel industry 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.960 has so much power now over our federal courts they 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.840 are able to essentially take control of the machinery of 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:23.080 the prosecution and prosecute me directly through a Chevron law firm, 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.160 which has never happened before. So this is a corporate 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:29.920 prosecution under the rubric of the United States government, but 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.160 it's controlled by Chevron, and it's really scary. So, you know, 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.719 these very dangerous trends that I think threatened free speech, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:41.440 threaten the rule of law, threatened advocacy, threatened democracy are 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.720 penetrating our country now in ways that we have never 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:47.919 seen before. And that's manifesting in my case. 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.200 Your case has been going on so long that when 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.160 it first started, that had kind of just begun in 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.560 this country. But now if you look at all the 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.680 states have some of so any protest laws. If you 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:07.200 look at Mbridge that literally has admitted paying off law 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:12.400 enforcement or energy transfer in Louisiana, that bought its own 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:18.440 security uniform of shares officers to chef deputies that in 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.520 recent years or months, If you put together all of 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.560 those things, it's a really horrible picture. 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:33.200 It is it is. And you know, look, the corporate power, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:35.680 particularly of the fossil fuel industry in our country, in 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:41.479 the United States, has never been stronger, and it's just 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:46.599 shocking to me that our institutions that normally are designed 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:51.480 to check corporate power, like the Congress, the courts, the 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.520 president executive branch, are pretty much under the sway of 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.120 the fossil fuel industry in ways that people can't even 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.240 see your I don't even think fully real lives, you know. 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.680 For example, in the Line three protests, the fact that 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:10.160 the pipeline company is paying public police means that those 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.760 police are answering to the company. They're no longer public police, 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.680 and they're arresting you know, protesters, including indigenous protesters, who 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.280 are on their own territory, by treating you know, that 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:28.720 is part of the trend Chevron taking over the prosecutorial 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.640 function in New York after the charges from this you know, 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.520 pro Chevron judge were flat out rejected by the regular 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:42.640 federal prosecutor. All these things are part of the problem 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.960 that you identify and others identify, you know, enhance penalties 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.520 for protesters trying to claim that anyone exercising their free 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.120 speech rights around an oil installation could be charged with terrorism. 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:59.640 These are all very dangerous. These are all very dangerous 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.680 to be moments that I believe threatened, you know, the 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.800 rule of law in America and really raised questions about 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:07.560 what kind of society we want to live in. 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.400 You know, they are now going back and resurrecting this 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.680 investigation in Ecuador. And I know you said you had 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.200 just really learned about this, But why might they be 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.320 doing that? Do you have any kind of theories. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.800 Of Oh, I think that it's a desperate attempt by 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:28.560 Chevron to come up with some other what they would 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:33.040 call some determination by some low level prosecutor that might 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:38.960 support their theory that the you know, the historic decision 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.679 against them that was won by indigenous peoples and farmer 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.199 communities with somehow the product of fraud, and that's what 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.680 they're trying to do. You know. The problem they have 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:52.200 is despite spending literally three billion dollars on sixty law 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.120 firms and two thousand lawyers, six PR firms and one 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.200 hundred and fifty investigators, who knows what else. I mean, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.280 they have websites up created just to smear my reputation. 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.960 They spent massive sums of money. They have failed, utterly 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.199 failed to get rid of the financial risk they face 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.240 as a result of this historic court victory. So, you know, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.320 having spent so much money, they're down in Ecuador. There's 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.560 a new you know, pro corporate government, Giamo Lasso as 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:25.280 the president. He's trying to appease you know, foreign investors. 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.040 He's trying to appease the State Department, which by the way, 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.720 works hand in hand with Chevron down there. And part 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:36.520 of this is they lobbied the Attorney General's office to 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:41.720 open up this you know bolt Bs investigation where they're 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:46.360 literally interviewing indigenous peoples and peasants about a supposed fraud 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:51.360 that occurred in the case. It's just pathetic, and you know, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.480 I fully expect this to either die on the vine 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.240 because there's no evidence, or they'll just manufacture something and 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.880 put out some report that Chevron's lawyers will write claiming 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.199 they found evidence of this, that and the other thing. 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.640 But you know, it's too late for that. The case 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.480 is over. It's been affirmed a twenty eight appellat judges 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:16.480 and equador in Canada, including the highest courts of both countries. 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.079 So is there anything else that you think about your 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.560 sentencing or what we just talked about about, you know, 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:24.760 what's going on at Gordon now that you think I 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.679 haven't asked or it's important that people know and understand 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:29.080 going forward. 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:35.360 Oh, I will say this, I need support personally. Obviously 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:37.880 what happens to me is connected to this bigger picture 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.000 that we're talking about today, but I also want to 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.120 survive on a personal level. I have a wife and 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.280 a fifteen year old son, and I want to live 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:49.160 the rest of my life happy and productive. So if 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.439 I would just ask that if you're in the New 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.240 York area, please come to court in October one. We're 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.000 having a rally at eight thirty in the morning, and 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:00.200 then come into court and show your support. If you 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.600 can't get there, you can also listen in my telephone. 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.160 You can get the number off my Twitter page at 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.680 ads Donziger. It's not up there yet, but we're going 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:12.640 to put it up soon. If Judge Presca's sentences me 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.880 to jail prison, please don't forget about me. And if 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.000 you're around trying to come visit, I don't even care 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.520 if I don't know you, like I need visitors constantly. 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.680 We need to convey to the authorities in the prison 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.360 the courts that I have a lot of support at 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.600 all times so I can be protected if I have 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.079 to go inside. Although I do hope it doesn't happen. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:35.240 I think, you know, I think that at this point 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.800 there's so many people demanding I be released. As again, 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:43.319 I've stirred now eight times longer than the longest sentence 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.480 ever for someone a lawyer convicted of my level of offense. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.160 So we're going to go in there and good faith 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.480 and ask Judge Prescott to release me. And I really 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.280 pray it happens. And by the way, if I suddenly 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.840 become in komunicado as of like mid morning October, first 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:03.160 you'll we know what happened, but I will be I 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.439 will be back at some point. And I want to 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.760 also say, first of all, thank you to you and 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.160 Amy Westervelt. You guys have really done amazing work to 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.240 bring the story to the to the public and your 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.400 your your journalism is an example of a check on 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.560 the very forces we're talking about, an independent check that 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:24.880 is all too rare now in America. You know, I 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:26.920 will say that the big media, the New York Times 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:31.040 included CNN, I have completely ignored my attention for over 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.920 two years. It don't cover it. So to have journalists 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:40.240 like y'all dig in and the professional, intelligent way that 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.599 you have is a huge important thing, not only to 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.360 me people of ecclorbit to our society. So I thank 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:52.000 you for that, and you know, just keep monitoring and watching, 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:57.360 and you know, if I end up getting incarcerated, I 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.840 don't want to go to prison, obviously, but I will 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.880 go in and you know, deal with it and come out. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:21.360 Karen, you were at the courthouse today for Donziger's sentencing hearing. 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:23.400 What was it like? 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.280 What was kind of the mood in the courtroom. 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.720 It was tense, I can tell you that. And I 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.520 can tell you that it went on seemingly forever, and 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.679 I was not even the one being sentenced, so I 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:37.800 can't imagine how long it must have felt for Stephen 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.680 Donziger and for his wife and son who were also there. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.880 Oh God, I want to have you talk me through 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.200 what like what happened during the hearing and anything that 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.600 stood out in terms of what Judge Presca said. 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:56.960 Yeah, so a bunch of things happened. First up was 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:01.360 the folks for Stephen's side and his lawyers just kind 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:05.040 of went through all of the reasons why he you know, 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.240 wasn't didn't need to be sentenced to any prison time, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.800 why the time spent on house arrested was more than enough, 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.680 you know, not necessarily arguing that he is innocent, although 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.840 you know, he has never said he was guilty of 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.360 that crime. But they just went through and they highlighted 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.760 the letters of support and so went through all of that, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.800 went through kind of the history of the fact that 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.280 you know, Okay, some of the time Donziger may not 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.840 have filed the correct motion at the right time, or 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.760 appealed on time, or did certain things procedurally correct. But 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.080 if you take a look according to what his attorneys argued, 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.400 you know, you've got Stephen Donziger working at his house, 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.920 at his apartment, at the table, and on the other 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.880 side you've got a you know, an army of lawyers 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.160 at Chevron's disposal. Of course, it's not going to be equal, right, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.320 And then it was after the attorney went Stephen went 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.280 up and made a statement so which I think was 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.200 really difficult for him. I think the one of the 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.400 hardest parts, I know, even just for me as a 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.040 parent hearing was him talk about the times that he 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.200 has missed out on spending with his son, you know, 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.160 just having to have the ankle brace went on having. 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.200 So I think that that had a big impact on him. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.720 One of the themes that through Donziger's lawyers and his 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.960 presentation or his statement, One of the things the lawyers 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:32.320 really stressed was that, you know, Judge Presca can't undo 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.280 all of the things that have happened that they consider unjust, 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:37.760 that are just you know, all the weird things that 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.040 we've talked about that just don't make sense. She can't 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.360 do all of that, She can't correct them. But what 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.240 she could do is do no more harm. Once Rita 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.560 Glavin got up, she you know, as you know, she's 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:53.080 really deferred to the court for sentencing, she said that 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.920 she doesn't agree with all of Ron Kobe's history of 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.440 the case because Kobe went through the he went through 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.280 pretty thoroughly the entire case, which took quite a while. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.520 You know, she said, to some points where where Kaplan 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.360 had ruled differently, and she argued that, you know, Steven 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.480 Donziger got where he is based on not complying with 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.760 the court orders. And that was really what she stressed 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.520 during her whole time, was you know that he willfully 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.960 didn't comply with what the court said. He it purposely 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:25.640 told the court he wouldn't comply he has expressed no 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:30.040 remorse and just kind of really beat home and stressed 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:36.520 his non compliance according to her, with Kaplan's orders. So 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.040 it was really kind of back and forth, he says. 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.760 She said, and some of the same stuff that I 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.000 think we've talked about before, where if you listen to 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.120 one side, it really strongly appears that one thing happened, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.360 but when you listen to the other side, it really 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.160 strongly appears that something else happened. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:55.960 I mean, yeah, that has been That's like a hallmark 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.280 of this case across the board. Is just just that 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.720 there's no middle ground between the two. But the one 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.640 thing that seems objectively true here is that Donziger has 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:14.280 already served effectively two years of a sentence for a 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.760 crime that comes with a maximum of six months. So 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:19.800 was that discussed at all? 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.359 You know, it wasn't discussed by either part, by either side. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.560 But then when Judge Presca read her opinion, she actually 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:30.840 and I think it would have been pre typed before 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:32.120 and she just read off of it. 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:33.840 But what she. 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.200 Talked about was that actually being on house arrest doesn't 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:44.200 count as time served. Apparently being on house arrest is 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:48.400 not equal to being detained according to the law, and 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.479 you know, she would cite cases and I don't know, 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:52.320 I'm a lawyer. I don't know all these cases. I 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.560 haven't looked them all up. But apparently somewhere back in 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.200 the legal system, they've decided if you're on house arrest, 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:02.080 that you are not a officially detained And there was 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:06.600 some discussion also comparing saying, you know, Stephen Donzegeer was 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.000 on house arrest and couldn't leave his apartment, but at 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.280 the same time, much of New York was on house arrest, 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.879 you know, a form of house arrestor in COVID, and 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.560 couldn't leave their apartments and couldn't do anything. So he 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.720 wasn't really any worse shape than New Yorkers were during 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:26.240 stay at home orders, which you know, there's one. 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.480 I mean, we got back to that like the first 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.720 episode of our of the podcast, right where he talked 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:36.159 about all the ways that it's different, including being woken 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.960 up in the middle of the night, you know, every 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.240 other week when the battery runs out and stuff like that. 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.919 I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, and there's also you know, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.840 there is it's a whole different situation. You aren't house arrest. Yeah, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.159 this is not supposed to leave your house. Not supposed 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:55.760 to leave your house means I could run to the 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.399 corner store and get a loaf of bread or a 0:18:58.400 --> 0:18:58.920 bagel or. 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.800 Something, and I can go to the g store whenever 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.119 I want. I can go for a walk whenever I want. Yeah, 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.159 people can at least go outside and get a walk 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.120 and some fresh air during. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.439 Right and during most of that time, you weren't going 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.000 to face any illegal consequences. Now, however, when you're on 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.640 house arrest, if you decide to run to the bodega 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.120 to pick up a bagel, or you decide you want 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.240 to go to the park for a run and you 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.040 just go, I mean, there's a whole different level of consequence. 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.080 So that to me doesn't really stack up at all. 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:35.520 No, No, So okay, let's talk about what the sentence 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.239 actually was and how Prespa delivered it. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.600 So she went point by point through the contempt charges 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.920 and some of theimes. She pushed back on the fact 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.120 that he had in fact, in her eyes, not appealed 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:52.840 some of the things that he said he was waiting 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:57.240 appeal on. She went through the point where he went 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.760 he purposely entered into civil contents in order to be 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.520 able to have an appeal. Hard I said, well, you know, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:05.399 when you go on to contempt, you don't get to 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.479 decide whether it's simil or criminal. It was basically a 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:14.720 straight upholding of Caplan's rulings. She sentenced him to six months. 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.080 And then I know that they asked for him to 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.120 serve that time on house arrests, right, So how did 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.800 that go? It' very it's very confusing sentencing, I think, 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.879 so as much as you can kind of unpack the 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.960 two appeals that are now under way and and what 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.199 exactly it all means for Donzeger. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:40.800 Yeah, so my understanding is that he will appeal the 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.000 actual conviction and there's a new legal team that will 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.760 take over and work on the appeal, and that's an 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.639 appeal to the second Circuit, so that I think is 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:51.960 already kind of in the works and has been planned 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.400 and there's nothing changing about that. And what he wanted 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.880 was what was considered post conviction bail, and they had 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:03.080 filed a motion for them, at which Presca denied. Basically, 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.560 she reiterated that she thinks he's a flight risk, that 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:08.879 now that he's been convicted, he's even more of a 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.280 flight risk, and so he should be detained, you know, 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.040 he should be detained, And so she denied the request 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.000 for bail. Normally, what that would mean would be that 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.080 the marshals who actually came into the courtroom like right 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.240 around the time she said that, and they were standing 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:24.880 in the back. I was just like, wow, these guys 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.400 are really moving in. But he could have been detained 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.800 right there. Donziger, his legal team, everybody who was with 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:36.320 him pretty much said beforehand, even he's going to get 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.639 six months. So they, I'm sure had already realized that 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.840 if the bail request was denied, they would immediately appeal 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:48.960 the denial because they now are appealing the denial of bail. 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:54.560 He gets to stay out with the understanding that he 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:58.520 would file the request for an expedited appeal only of 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:00.520 the bail, of whether or not he on the bail, 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:02.200 you know, is on bail or is not on bail 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:08.719 within a week. And so ultimately in that in that question, 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:13.280 I believe the Second Circuit will make a determination and 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:16.959 whether they say, Okay, this guy has to stay on 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:19.640 house arrest, Okay, this guy is not a flight risk. 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.280 He can be free in say New York, or this 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.320 guy has to wait the results of his appeal from 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.359 behind bars is the Second Circuits decision. 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:33.280 Mm hmm, okay, wow, and that will. 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:34.560 Come I don't know. I know it has to be 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.200 filed within a week, but I'm not sure how long 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:39.760 it will take. A few people I talked to after 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:43.639 the hearing seem to think that the UN opinion that 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:46.560 came out a couple of days ago would likely play 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:50.879 a fairly big role in that, because, you know, on 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.080 a global stage, it looks pretty bad when this human 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.159 rights lawyer in the United States is on you know, 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:04.160 is behind bars well, is waiting his appeal. Yeah, yeah, 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:05.120 it does look bad. 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:10.119 Yeah, But like I don't I haven't gotten any sense 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:14.560 that PRESCA, for the rest of you know, the court 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.639 seems to feel any kind of pressure from these these things, 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:20.639 because that isn't I mean, okay, yes, now that you 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:24.359 in and saying it, but there's been several international bodies 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.639 and like you know, legal oversight groups and things like 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.679 that that have said this is clearly wrong. 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:31.399 You know. 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.320 She openly downplayed that. She said she would quote unquote 0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:38.960 take it for whatever it's worth. Wow, you know, she 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:43.600 downplayed that. She downplayed the fact that Amnesty International had 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:49.679 supported him. The downplaying of any of his supporters was 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:50.879 very noticeable. 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:53.919 Could you talk a little bit about the you know, 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.240