Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Later this week
Speaker 1: we will have the third installment of our series with Earth,
Speaker 1: looking at fossil fuel involvement in schools. But today we
Speaker 1: have an update on our season five story. American attorney
Speaker 1: Stephen Donziger, who's been on house arrest for more than
Speaker 1: seven hundred days as a result of his involvement in
Speaker 1: the Chevron, Ecuador case, was sentenced last week on Friday.
Speaker 2: This court has already determined pre trial that mister Donziger,
Speaker 2: if convicted, would not be sentenced to more than six
Speaker 2: months in prison or a five thousand dollars five.
Speaker 1: Donziger was given the maximum, a six month jail sentence,
Speaker 1: despite having served, as I said, more than seven hundred
Speaker 1: days on house arrest already. It's the sentencing that Donziger
Speaker 1: and his team were expecting, and there are multiple appeals
Speaker 1: underway already. We'll have updates on all of that. Our
Speaker 1: reporter Karen Savage was in the courtroom during the sentencing.
Speaker 1: I'll be joined by her after the break. We also
Speaker 1: talked to Donziger in the lead up to the hearing
Speaker 1: and spoke with a few other folks after the sentencing.
Speaker 1: All of that is coming up after this quick break.
Speaker 3: A long time, no talk. How are you, how have
Speaker 3: you been?
Speaker 4: You know, we continue fighting to you know, get justice
Speaker 4: for the people of Ecuador and to you know, make
Speaker 4: sure the lawyers, including me or protect did Obviously, this
Speaker 4: has been a hell of an ordeal. I've been in
Speaker 4: house arrest for two years two months on a misdemeanor.
Speaker 4: Unprecedented US history, as I think, you know, ever given
Speaker 4: a lawyer convicted of the supposed crime that I committed
Speaker 4: is ninety days at home detention. And again I've been
Speaker 4: more than eight times that already and I haven't even
Speaker 4: been sentenced. So my sentencing is next Friday. Judge Presca,
Speaker 4: who I believe was appointed illegally by the charging judge
Speaker 4: in a case that was rejected by the normal federal prosecutor.
Speaker 4: She's going to sentence me. She has, according to her,
Speaker 4: she has the right to put me in prison for
Speaker 4: six months on top of the two years plus of
Speaker 4: house arrest. And We're going to go in there in
Speaker 4: good faith and request that she let me go home
Speaker 4: and be free, get my passport back, and continue my
Speaker 4: human rights work. This is this length of my detention
Speaker 4: is unprecedented, unjustified. I believe it's arbitrary, and I believe
Speaker 4: it's illegal.
Speaker 3: Right so much as happen, and since we've last talked,
Speaker 3: so not only the bench child of the conviction and the
Speaker 3: upcoming sentencing, but you've gotten a ton of support. Can
Speaker 3: you tell a little talk a little bit about all
Speaker 3: the organizations and different folks that have written or expressed
Speaker 3: letters of support.
Speaker 4: Sure, I have support, you know, from a lot of
Speaker 4: people and organizations that I you know, just stepped up
Speaker 4: because they recognize that what's happening to me is terribly
Speaker 4: unjust and that it represents really an attack on indigenous
Speaker 4: rights and Indigenous people who want to historic pollution judgment
Speaker 4: against a big oil company. You know, everyone knows. I
Speaker 4: think that looks at this that this goes way beyond
Speaker 4: Stephen Donziger. You know, this is a wholesale attack by
Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry on the very idea of indigenous
Speaker 4: rights and environmental justice and human rights lawyer for that matter.
Speaker 4: So they're really using my case to try to destroy
Speaker 4: the very idea that these types of cases can be
Speaker 4: done and that lawyers, you know, have the right to
Speaker 4: do these cases and you know, they're trying to create
Speaker 4: a situation where if I, if a lawyer in this case,
Speaker 4: me can be detained at home for over two years
Speaker 4: for winning a human rights case against an oil company.
Speaker 4: No one will do the work and the industry will
Speaker 4: have fewer these types of challenges and courts, you know,
Speaker 4: not just in the United States, but all over the world.
Speaker 4: So there's an industry wide strategy to the attacks on me.
Speaker 4: They're being facilitated by two US federal judges who are
Speaker 4: come out of the federalist society, and they're very pro
Speaker 4: corporate and I believe they're abusing their power. And you
Speaker 4: know what we're seeing now in the United States is
Speaker 4: you know the trend that sort of has been going
Speaker 4: on in other countries like China and Russia and Hungary
Speaker 4: and Saudi Arabia and Brazil now of you know, authoritarian
Speaker 4: leaders using the courts and criminal cases, it's fake criminal
Speaker 4: cases to attack their political opponents. That's now happening here
Speaker 4: and you see it in my case, not so much
Speaker 4: the government but Chevron. You know, the fossil fuel industry
Speaker 4: has so much power now over our federal courts they
Speaker 4: are able to essentially take control of the machinery of
Speaker 4: the prosecution and prosecute me directly through a Chevron law firm,
Speaker 4: which has never happened before. So this is a corporate
Speaker 4: prosecution under the rubric of the United States government, but
Speaker 4: it's controlled by Chevron, and it's really scary. So, you know,
Speaker 4: these very dangerous trends that I think threatened free speech,
Speaker 4: threaten the rule of law, threatened advocacy, threatened democracy are
Speaker 4: penetrating our country now in ways that we have never
Speaker 4: seen before. And that's manifesting in my case.
Speaker 3: Your case has been going on so long that when
Speaker 3: it first started, that had kind of just begun in
Speaker 3: this country. But now if you look at all the
Speaker 3: states have some of so any protest laws. If you
Speaker 3: look at Mbridge that literally has admitted paying off law
Speaker 3: enforcement or energy transfer in Louisiana, that bought its own
Speaker 3: security uniform of shares officers to chef deputies that in
Speaker 3: recent years or months, If you put together all of
Speaker 3: those things, it's a really horrible picture.
Speaker 4: It is it is. And you know, look, the corporate power,
Speaker 4: particularly of the fossil fuel industry in our country, in
Speaker 4: the United States, has never been stronger, and it's just
Speaker 4: shocking to me that our institutions that normally are designed
Speaker 4: to check corporate power, like the Congress, the courts, the
Speaker 4: president executive branch, are pretty much under the sway of
Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry in ways that people can't even
Speaker 4: see your I don't even think fully real lives, you know.
Speaker 4: For example, in the Line three protests, the fact that
Speaker 4: the pipeline company is paying public police means that those
Speaker 4: police are answering to the company. They're no longer public police,
Speaker 4: and they're arresting you know, protesters, including indigenous protesters, who
Speaker 4: are on their own territory, by treating you know, that
Speaker 4: is part of the trend Chevron taking over the prosecutorial
Speaker 4: function in New York after the charges from this you know,
Speaker 4: pro Chevron judge were flat out rejected by the regular
Speaker 4: federal prosecutor. All these things are part of the problem
Speaker 4: that you identify and others identify, you know, enhance penalties
Speaker 4: for protesters trying to claim that anyone exercising their free
Speaker 4: speech rights around an oil installation could be charged with terrorism.
Speaker 4: These are all very dangerous. These are all very dangerous
Speaker 4: to be moments that I believe threatened, you know, the
Speaker 4: rule of law in America and really raised questions about
Speaker 4: what kind of society we want to live in.
Speaker 3: You know, they are now going back and resurrecting this
Speaker 3: investigation in Ecuador. And I know you said you had
Speaker 3: just really learned about this, But why might they be
Speaker 3: doing that? Do you have any kind of theories.
Speaker 4: Of Oh, I think that it's a desperate attempt by
Speaker 4: Chevron to come up with some other what they would
Speaker 4: call some determination by some low level prosecutor that might
Speaker 4: support their theory that the you know, the historic decision
Speaker 4: against them that was won by indigenous peoples and farmer
Speaker 4: communities with somehow the product of fraud, and that's what
Speaker 4: they're trying to do. You know. The problem they have
Speaker 4: is despite spending literally three billion dollars on sixty law
Speaker 4: firms and two thousand lawyers, six PR firms and one
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty investigators, who knows what else. I mean,
Speaker 4: they have websites up created just to smear my reputation.
Speaker 4: They spent massive sums of money. They have failed, utterly
Speaker 4: failed to get rid of the financial risk they face
Speaker 4: as a result of this historic court victory. So, you know,
Speaker 4: having spent so much money, they're down in Ecuador. There's
Speaker 4: a new you know, pro corporate government, Giamo Lasso as
Speaker 4: the president. He's trying to appease you know, foreign investors.
Speaker 4: He's trying to appease the State Department, which by the way,
Speaker 4: works hand in hand with Chevron down there. And part
Speaker 4: of this is they lobbied the Attorney General's office to
Speaker 4: open up this you know bolt Bs investigation where they're
Speaker 4: literally interviewing indigenous peoples and peasants about a supposed fraud
Speaker 4: that occurred in the case. It's just pathetic, and you know,
Speaker 4: I fully expect this to either die on the vine
Speaker 4: because there's no evidence, or they'll just manufacture something and
Speaker 4: put out some report that Chevron's lawyers will write claiming
Speaker 4: they found evidence of this, that and the other thing.
Speaker 4: But you know, it's too late for that. The case
Speaker 4: is over. It's been affirmed a twenty eight appellat judges
Speaker 4: and equador in Canada, including the highest courts of both countries.
Speaker 3: So is there anything else that you think about your
Speaker 3: sentencing or what we just talked about about, you know,
Speaker 3: what's going on at Gordon now that you think I
Speaker 3: haven't asked or it's important that people know and understand
Speaker 3: going forward.
Speaker 4: Oh, I will say this, I need support personally. Obviously
Speaker 4: what happens to me is connected to this bigger picture
Speaker 4: that we're talking about today, but I also want to
Speaker 4: survive on a personal level. I have a wife and
Speaker 4: a fifteen year old son, and I want to live
Speaker 4: the rest of my life happy and productive. So if
Speaker 4: I would just ask that if you're in the New
Speaker 4: York area, please come to court in October one. We're
Speaker 4: having a rally at eight thirty in the morning, and
Speaker 4: then come into court and show your support. If you
Speaker 4: can't get there, you can also listen in my telephone.
Speaker 4: You can get the number off my Twitter page at
Speaker 4: ads Donziger. It's not up there yet, but we're going
Speaker 4: to put it up soon. If Judge Presca's sentences me
Speaker 4: to jail prison, please don't forget about me. And if
Speaker 4: you're around trying to come visit, I don't even care
Speaker 4: if I don't know you, like I need visitors constantly.
Speaker 4: We need to convey to the authorities in the prison
Speaker 4: the courts that I have a lot of support at
Speaker 4: all times so I can be protected if I have
Speaker 4: to go inside. Although I do hope it doesn't happen.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, I think that at this point
Speaker 4: there's so many people demanding I be released. As again,
Speaker 4: I've stirred now eight times longer than the longest sentence
Speaker 4: ever for someone a lawyer convicted of my level of offense.
Speaker 4: So we're going to go in there and good faith
Speaker 4: and ask Judge Prescott to release me. And I really
Speaker 4: pray it happens. And by the way, if I suddenly
Speaker 4: become in komunicado as of like mid morning October, first
Speaker 4: you'll we know what happened, but I will be I
Speaker 4: will be back at some point. And I want to
Speaker 4: also say, first of all, thank you to you and
Speaker 4: Amy Westervelt. You guys have really done amazing work to
Speaker 4: bring the story to the to the public and your
Speaker 4: your your journalism is an example of a check on
Speaker 4: the very forces we're talking about, an independent check that
Speaker 4: is all too rare now in America. You know, I
Speaker 4: will say that the big media, the New York Times
Speaker 4: included CNN, I have completely ignored my attention for over
Speaker 4: two years. It don't cover it. So to have journalists
Speaker 4: like y'all dig in and the professional, intelligent way that
Speaker 4: you have is a huge important thing, not only to
Speaker 4: me people of ecclorbit to our society. So I thank
Speaker 4: you for that, and you know, just keep monitoring and watching,
Speaker 4: and you know, if I end up getting incarcerated, I
Speaker 4: don't want to go to prison, obviously, but I will
Speaker 4: go in and you know, deal with it and come out.
Speaker 5: Karen, you were at the courthouse today for Donziger's sentencing hearing.
Speaker 1: What was it like?
Speaker 5: What was kind of the mood in the courtroom.
Speaker 3: It was tense, I can tell you that. And I
Speaker 3: can tell you that it went on seemingly forever, and
Speaker 3: I was not even the one being sentenced, so I
Speaker 3: can't imagine how long it must have felt for Stephen
Speaker 3: Donziger and for his wife and son who were also there.
Speaker 5: Oh God, I want to have you talk me through
Speaker 5: what like what happened during the hearing and anything that
Speaker 5: stood out in terms of what Judge Presca said.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so a bunch of things happened. First up was
Speaker 3: the folks for Stephen's side and his lawyers just kind
Speaker 3: of went through all of the reasons why he you know,
Speaker 3: wasn't didn't need to be sentenced to any prison time,
Speaker 3: why the time spent on house arrested was more than enough,
Speaker 3: you know, not necessarily arguing that he is innocent, although
Speaker 3: you know, he has never said he was guilty of
Speaker 3: that crime. But they just went through and they highlighted
Speaker 3: the letters of support and so went through all of that,
Speaker 3: went through kind of the history of the fact that
Speaker 3: you know, Okay, some of the time Donziger may not
Speaker 3: have filed the correct motion at the right time, or
Speaker 3: appealed on time, or did certain things procedurally correct. But
Speaker 3: if you take a look according to what his attorneys argued,
Speaker 3: you know, you've got Stephen Donziger working at his house,
Speaker 3: at his apartment, at the table, and on the other
Speaker 3: side you've got a you know, an army of lawyers
Speaker 3: at Chevron's disposal. Of course, it's not going to be equal, right,
Speaker 3: And then it was after the attorney went Stephen went
Speaker 3: up and made a statement so which I think was
Speaker 3: really difficult for him. I think the one of the
Speaker 3: hardest parts, I know, even just for me as a
Speaker 3: parent hearing was him talk about the times that he
Speaker 3: has missed out on spending with his son, you know,
Speaker 3: just having to have the ankle brace went on having.
Speaker 3: So I think that that had a big impact on him.
Speaker 3: One of the themes that through Donziger's lawyers and his
Speaker 3: presentation or his statement, One of the things the lawyers
Speaker 3: really stressed was that, you know, Judge Presca can't undo
Speaker 3: all of the things that have happened that they consider unjust,
Speaker 3: that are just you know, all the weird things that
Speaker 3: we've talked about that just don't make sense. She can't
Speaker 3: do all of that, She can't correct them. But what
Speaker 3: she could do is do no more harm. Once Rita
Speaker 3: Glavin got up, she you know, as you know, she's
Speaker 3: really deferred to the court for sentencing, she said that
Speaker 3: she doesn't agree with all of Ron Kobe's history of
Speaker 3: the case because Kobe went through the he went through
Speaker 3: pretty thoroughly the entire case, which took quite a while.
Speaker 3: You know, she said, to some points where where Kaplan
Speaker 3: had ruled differently, and she argued that, you know, Steven
Speaker 3: Donziger got where he is based on not complying with
Speaker 3: the court orders. And that was really what she stressed
Speaker 3: during her whole time, was you know that he willfully
Speaker 3: didn't comply with what the court said. He it purposely
Speaker 3: told the court he wouldn't comply he has expressed no
Speaker 3: remorse and just kind of really beat home and stressed
Speaker 3: his non compliance according to her, with Kaplan's orders. So
Speaker 3: it was really kind of back and forth, he says.
Speaker 3: She said, and some of the same stuff that I
Speaker 3: think we've talked about before, where if you listen to
Speaker 3: one side, it really strongly appears that one thing happened,
Speaker 3: but when you listen to the other side, it really
Speaker 3: strongly appears that something else happened.
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, that has been That's like a hallmark
Speaker 5: of this case across the board. Is just just that
Speaker 5: there's no middle ground between the two. But the one
Speaker 5: thing that seems objectively true here is that Donziger has
Speaker 5: already served effectively two years of a sentence for a
Speaker 5: crime that comes with a maximum of six months. So
Speaker 5: was that discussed at all?
Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't discussed by either part, by either side.
Speaker 3: But then when Judge Presca read her opinion, she actually
Speaker 3: and I think it would have been pre typed before
Speaker 3: and she just read off of it.
Speaker 6: But what she.
Speaker 3: Talked about was that actually being on house arrest doesn't
Speaker 3: count as time served. Apparently being on house arrest is
Speaker 3: not equal to being detained according to the law, and
Speaker 3: you know, she would cite cases and I don't know,
Speaker 3: I'm a lawyer. I don't know all these cases. I
Speaker 3: haven't looked them all up. But apparently somewhere back in
Speaker 3: the legal system, they've decided if you're on house arrest,
Speaker 3: that you are not a officially detained And there was
Speaker 3: some discussion also comparing saying, you know, Stephen Donzegeer was
Speaker 3: on house arrest and couldn't leave his apartment, but at
Speaker 3: the same time, much of New York was on house arrest,
Speaker 3: you know, a form of house arrestor in COVID, and
Speaker 3: couldn't leave their apartments and couldn't do anything. So he
Speaker 3: wasn't really any worse shape than New Yorkers were during
Speaker 3: stay at home orders, which you know, there's one.
Speaker 5: I mean, we got back to that like the first
Speaker 5: episode of our of the podcast, right where he talked
Speaker 5: about all the ways that it's different, including being woken
Speaker 5: up in the middle of the night, you know, every
Speaker 5: other week when the battery runs out and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, and there's also you know,
Speaker 3: there is it's a whole different situation. You aren't house arrest. Yeah,
Speaker 3: this is not supposed to leave your house. Not supposed
Speaker 3: to leave your house means I could run to the
Speaker 3: corner store and get a loaf of bread or a
Speaker 3: bagel or.
Speaker 5: Something, and I can go to the g store whenever
Speaker 5: I want. I can go for a walk whenever I want. Yeah,
Speaker 5: people can at least go outside and get a walk
Speaker 5: and some fresh air during.
Speaker 3: Right and during most of that time, you weren't going
Speaker 3: to face any illegal consequences. Now, however, when you're on
Speaker 3: house arrest, if you decide to run to the bodega
Speaker 3: to pick up a bagel, or you decide you want
Speaker 3: to go to the park for a run and you
Speaker 3: just go, I mean, there's a whole different level of consequence.
Speaker 3: So that to me doesn't really stack up at all.
Speaker 5: No, No, So okay, let's talk about what the sentence
Speaker 5: actually was and how Prespa delivered it.
Speaker 3: So she went point by point through the contempt charges
Speaker 3: and some of theimes. She pushed back on the fact
Speaker 3: that he had in fact, in her eyes, not appealed
Speaker 3: some of the things that he said he was waiting
Speaker 3: appeal on. She went through the point where he went
Speaker 3: he purposely entered into civil contents in order to be
Speaker 3: able to have an appeal. Hard I said, well, you know,
Speaker 3: when you go on to contempt, you don't get to
Speaker 3: decide whether it's simil or criminal. It was basically a
Speaker 3: straight upholding of Caplan's rulings. She sentenced him to six months.
Speaker 5: And then I know that they asked for him to
Speaker 5: serve that time on house arrests, right, So how did
Speaker 5: that go? It' very it's very confusing sentencing, I think,
Speaker 5: so as much as you can kind of unpack the
Speaker 5: two appeals that are now under way and and what
Speaker 5: exactly it all means for Donzeger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my understanding is that he will appeal the
Speaker 3: actual conviction and there's a new legal team that will
Speaker 3: take over and work on the appeal, and that's an
Speaker 3: appeal to the second Circuit, so that I think is
Speaker 3: already kind of in the works and has been planned
Speaker 3: and there's nothing changing about that. And what he wanted
Speaker 3: was what was considered post conviction bail, and they had
Speaker 3: filed a motion for them, at which Presca denied. Basically,
Speaker 3: she reiterated that she thinks he's a flight risk, that
Speaker 3: now that he's been convicted, he's even more of a
Speaker 3: flight risk, and so he should be detained, you know,
Speaker 3: he should be detained, And so she denied the request
Speaker 3: for bail. Normally, what that would mean would be that
Speaker 3: the marshals who actually came into the courtroom like right
Speaker 3: around the time she said that, and they were standing
Speaker 3: in the back. I was just like, wow, these guys
Speaker 3: are really moving in. But he could have been detained
Speaker 3: right there. Donziger, his legal team, everybody who was with
Speaker 3: him pretty much said beforehand, even he's going to get
Speaker 3: six months. So they, I'm sure had already realized that
Speaker 3: if the bail request was denied, they would immediately appeal
Speaker 3: the denial because they now are appealing the denial of bail.
Speaker 3: He gets to stay out with the understanding that he
Speaker 3: would file the request for an expedited appeal only of
Speaker 3: the bail, of whether or not he on the bail,
Speaker 3: you know, is on bail or is not on bail
Speaker 3: within a week. And so ultimately in that in that question,
Speaker 3: I believe the Second Circuit will make a determination and
Speaker 3: whether they say, Okay, this guy has to stay on
Speaker 3: house arrest, Okay, this guy is not a flight risk.
Speaker 3: He can be free in say New York, or this
Speaker 3: guy has to wait the results of his appeal from
Speaker 3: behind bars is the Second Circuits decision.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm, okay, wow, and that will.
Speaker 3: Come I don't know. I know it has to be
Speaker 3: filed within a week, but I'm not sure how long
Speaker 3: it will take. A few people I talked to after
Speaker 3: the hearing seem to think that the UN opinion that
Speaker 3: came out a couple of days ago would likely play
Speaker 3: a fairly big role in that, because, you know, on
Speaker 3: a global stage, it looks pretty bad when this human
Speaker 3: rights lawyer in the United States is on you know,
Speaker 3: is behind bars well, is waiting his appeal. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it does look bad.
Speaker 5: Yeah, But like I don't I haven't gotten any sense
Speaker 5: that PRESCA, for the rest of you know, the court
Speaker 5: seems to feel any kind of pressure from these these things,
Speaker 5: because that isn't I mean, okay, yes, now that you
Speaker 5: in and saying it, but there's been several international bodies
Speaker 5: and like you know, legal oversight groups and things like
Speaker 5: that that have said this is clearly wrong.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: She openly downplayed that. She said she would quote unquote
Speaker 3: take it for whatever it's worth. Wow, you know, she
Speaker 3: downplayed that. She downplayed the fact that Amnesty International had
Speaker 3: supported him. The downplaying of any of his supporters was
Speaker 3: very noticeable.
Speaker 5: Could you talk a little bit about the you know,
Speaker 5: he's the type of person who's not going to get
Speaker 5: get it until he's you know.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. So the most probably the most egregeous
Speaker 3: thing that I heard her say. And you know, in
Speaker 3: the context of the fact that he worked in Ecuador,
Speaker 3: in Latin America up against an oil company, and you know,
Speaker 3: Latin America is one of the most dangerous places in
Speaker 3: the world to do any sort of environmental work. And
Speaker 3: she says that only the proverbial two by four between
Speaker 3: the eyes will instill in him any respect for the law.
Speaker 7: They actually allowed people to call into the sentencing hearing,
Speaker 7: and we were able to tape this part of Presco's
Speaker 7: ruling so you can hear it for yourselves.
Speaker 2: Mister Donzicker's offenses are extremely serious. Given mister Donziger's repeated
Speaker 2: willful refusal to obey court orders, it seems that only
Speaker 2: the proverbial two by four between the eyes will instill
Speaker 2: him in him any respect for the law.
Speaker 3: She even blamed him at one point for running up
Speaker 3: the costs associated with the prosecution because he filed too
Speaker 3: many emotions and too many requests for delays or this
Speaker 3: or that, and you know, I believe still is every
Speaker 3: defendant's right to vigorously defend themselves.
Speaker 5: So you talked to some folks immediately after the hearing.
Speaker 5: What what did you hear from people?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there was a you know, everybody went downstairs.
Speaker 3: There's a press conference outside, and after that was done.
Speaker 3: I talked with Paul a little bit, who really kind
Speaker 3: of put this in perspective.
Speaker 1: This is Paul Pozziminho with Amazon Watch. Karen caught up
Speaker 1: with him on the steps of the courthouse just after
Speaker 1: the sentencing.
Speaker 6: All right, So Paul or outside the courthouse the hearing,
Speaker 6: and he just got on, what are you what's your gun?
Speaker 8: Well, kind of as other people were expressing, I'm not surprised,
Speaker 8: but I'm no less disgusted by what I saw. And
Speaker 8: actually I am surprised by a couple of things. First,
Speaker 8: Judge Prescott, we all knew she was going to convict Stephen.
Speaker 8: There's a foregone conclusion. She said it in as many
Speaker 8: words when the trial started. And we also knew that
Speaker 8: she was working hand in glove with Kapla, who as
Speaker 8: Kobi mentioned was not only the aggrieved party, but he
Speaker 8: hired the prosecutor, he picked the judge, and he's still
Speaker 8: a judge on the case. So it overturns any idea
Speaker 8: of our justice system.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 8: But what she did was she kind of thumbed her
Speaker 8: nose at the idea that this is in any way
Speaker 8: a bad thing and said Stephen should be hit in
Speaker 8: the head with a proverbial tu by four. I mean
Speaker 8: she literally said that after the UN Working Group on
Speaker 8: Arbitrary Detention claimed that what he's gone through as a
Speaker 8: human rights violation, not only should he be released, but
Speaker 8: compensated for it, and she said, quote, I take that
Speaker 8: for what it's worth, which you know, in my mind
Speaker 8: I had images of her just ripping up the paper
Speaker 8: and throwing it into the trash, because that was clearly
Speaker 8: what she thought about. That all the defense kept going
Speaker 8: through my mind when they were when Prescoe was reciting
Speaker 8: her decision, her sentencing, that everything that they're saying Stephen
Speaker 8: did was in the context of hundreds and hundreds of
Speaker 8: other things that he was doing in the most well
Speaker 8: financed corporate attack against a lawyer that we've ever seen. Right,
Speaker 8: So he's going over the course of decades, largely on
Speaker 8: his own because Chevron intimidated, scared, or bribed away other
Speaker 8: lawyers that would work with him. And you guys have
Speaker 8: talked about that on the podcast, so everyone knows the story.
Speaker 8: And yet so this one guy, he doesn't comply with
Speaker 8: some of the orders, and they're like, ah, and here's
Speaker 8: our chance. Let's throw him in jail. Let's turn it
Speaker 8: into it actual crime. Let's find the maximum sentence, find
Speaker 8: a judge who will say things like, let's hit him
Speaker 8: in the head with the proverbial two by four and
Speaker 8: case closed. So it's they're playing the role of villain perfectly.
Speaker 8: It's like it was written before. They've got to go
Speaker 8: through to the m Now. My hope is that it's
Speaker 8: reached the point now that so many other people cannot
Speaker 8: turn their eye anywhere like Biden Garland. They can't pretend
Speaker 8: this doesn't exist. Too many people have brought it to them,
Speaker 8: too many respected authorities. And now that there's been a sentence,
Speaker 8: someone can step in and say, Okay, this sneeze is stop.
Speaker 8: We're gonna pardon him or commute a sentence or whatever.
Speaker 8: But the pressure's got to be on because Biden, for example,
Speaker 8: can't I'm waiting for the day there's a White House
Speaker 8: press conference and somebody says something about the fossil fuel industry,
Speaker 8: and a reporter finally asked a question, what about this
Speaker 8: lawyer who's been locked up? And they can't say, oh, well,
Speaker 8: that was a civil issue. We don't get it because
Speaker 8: the US government is now is now putting him in jail,
Speaker 8: despite the United Nations saying they shouldn't.
Speaker 3: Doesn't it seem like they're just pushing, push and pushing
Speaker 3: until at some point they're like doing they're.
Speaker 8: Doing themselves in Well, I think I think there's somebody
Speaker 8: at Chevron, honestly who's thinking, what did we do with
Speaker 8: They created a monster with Caplin, because, as as Koobe
Speaker 8: pointed out in twenty seventeen, I guess it was they won.
Speaker 8: Stephen was at his lowest point. And I know personally
Speaker 8: because I've been involved forever and I was like one
Speaker 8: of the few people that was still talking to Steven.
Speaker 8: So many people, Oh he's toxic. He was found, you know,
Speaker 8: was confirmed. There's nothing can be done. We have to
Speaker 8: back off this. This was a loss for the entire
Speaker 8: environmental movement because Chevron was able to do what they did,
Speaker 8: and they couldn't just take it. Yeah, yeah, and they
Speaker 8: couldn't just take that win and leave it alone. But
Speaker 8: by going after Kaplan and Kaplin's that this also shows
Speaker 8: you the personal animosity that Kaplan has. This is a
Speaker 8: mechanism of his wanting to destroy Stephen as much as Chevron,
Speaker 8: and so someone I think as Chevron is going this,
Speaker 8: this is not good for us. This doesn't help now
Speaker 8: that the UN is ruling about Donziger being a human
Speaker 8: rights victim of human rights violations, that does not help
Speaker 8: Chevron in any way. And they've got to have thought,
Speaker 8: why do we let this get out of hand? But
Speaker 8: between Gibson, Dunn, Kaplin and Presca and the other actors
Speaker 8: at play who have decided that like they're going to
Speaker 8: elevate themselves by bringing Stephen down, they've created their own monster,
Speaker 8: and you know, my hope is that that ultimately will
Speaker 8: be their undoing.
Speaker 3: Okay, I got worried when the marshals came in.
Speaker 6: Me too.
Speaker 8: Why are marshals here? Two of them? Yeah, I was
Speaker 8: worried they were going to take the.
Speaker 3: Particularly like what the criminal thing is when they show up?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 8: Yeah, Well, she I guess she exercised some restraint on
Speaker 8: not having him taken away in chains literally because she
Speaker 8: could have done that. But I think she doesn't. You know,
Speaker 8: she's so all powerful in this realm that she doesn't
Speaker 8: really need to. She can still deny him bail and stuff. Now,
Speaker 8: the real question is the appeal well, and.
Speaker 3: The appeal of the denial of a base.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, specifically you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Will the second second let him stay out based on
Speaker 3: their bigger appeal or will you know, how will.
Speaker 1: They fall in this?
Speaker 8: See, I think we have an opportunity to get to
Speaker 8: those judges with the stuff that's just come out about
Speaker 8: the un and then bide admistration. If they turn to
Speaker 8: them and say, and this isn't going to be public,
Speaker 8: nothing's going to be on the record, but someone's going
Speaker 8: to pick up the phone and say, it looks really
Speaker 8: bad for us if you throw this guy in jail
Speaker 8: while he's appealing, right, just let him at least do that.
Speaker 8: They may not say, don't put him in jail ever
Speaker 8: if he loses his appeal, But I got to think
Speaker 8: somebody is going we are now taking heat for this.
Speaker 8: You know, there was a journalist who turned to me
Speaker 8: today and said, I think it was James North from
Speaker 8: the Nation, who's written so many great pieces about this.
Speaker 8: He's like, this is the last thing that Chevron wants today.
Speaker 8: Look at all these cameras and the appeal of the bail.
Speaker 8: They do not want him to lose that because it
Speaker 8: will just make it look worse for that.
Speaker 3: As far as next steps, I asked ron Koby before
Speaker 3: anything started, I said, you know what happens next? Is
Speaker 3: it conceivable that this is all resolved, whether Steven spent
Speaker 3: six months in jail or not. And then the next
Speaker 3: step is we are all back in Judge Kaplan's courtroom
Speaker 3: for the next round. And he said the answer is
Speaker 3: nobody knows. Nothing like this has ever happened before. And
Speaker 3: that's you know, that's really the case. No one at
Speaker 3: this point can actually predict what will happen. Chevron still
Speaker 3: has emotion out for some sixty billion dollars that they
Speaker 3: want from Stephen. So where this ever ends is anybody's guest.
Speaker 3: And I think Steven said it after the sentencing too,
Speaker 3: he said he honestly doesn't think this will ever end.
Speaker 5: Has he talked at all about what he's going to do,
Speaker 5: because we covered this previously, but just to remind people,
Speaker 5: they also went after his law license and successfully got
Speaker 5: him disbarred, so he no longer can practice law. He
Speaker 5: you know, they're obviously watching for him to profit in
Speaker 5: any way or even have any connection, it seems like
Speaker 5: to the Ecuadorians. Did you get a sense from him
Speaker 5: of kind of what he's going to do from here
Speaker 5: on out?
Speaker 3: I didn't this time, but I do, you know, know
Speaker 3: that there's still efforts to collect on the Ecuadorian judgment
Speaker 3: in other places. Whether or not that can ever go
Speaker 3: through because of the things we've talked about, the international
Speaker 3: arbitration and some different things is anybody's guess. But I
Speaker 3: think that if that's a possibility, I cannot see him
Speaker 3: giving up. I mean, he said really clearly that he's
Speaker 3: going to continue, I think, to exact quotas, but will
Speaker 3: continue fighting for the justice of the people in Ecuador
Speaker 3: and make sure that the lawyers and you know, people
Speaker 3: who do the work are protected. So he hasn't in
Speaker 3: any way forgotten about the people in Ecuador. In fact,
Speaker 3: one thing that he consistently when I talked to him
Speaker 3: last week and then again today, kept bringing back is
Speaker 3: that what Chevron wants everyone to forget are people in Ecuador,
Speaker 3: and so you know, he constantly has that on his mind,
Speaker 3: so he's surprised. If you work along those lines, you know,
Speaker 3: there's plenty of things you can do as an individual
Speaker 3: who is not a lawyer, to you know, further human rights,
Speaker 3: to end pollution, and you know, to stop climate change,
Speaker 3: and to do all the things along that kind of work.
Speaker 1: Drilled is a critical Frequency production. The show is produced
Speaker 1: and reported by me Amy Westerveldt. My co reporter for
Speaker 1: this season is Karen Savage. Our editor is Julia Ritchie.
Speaker 1: Original score composed by b Beeman. Our artwork this season
Speaker 1: was created by Matthew Fleming. Our first Amendment attorney is
Speaker 1: James Wheaton. You can see photos related to this story,
Speaker 1: as well as several companion pieces on our website at
Speaker 1: drillednews dot com. Researching and reporting stories like this requires
Speaker 1: a lot of time and resources. We appreciate the support
Speaker 1: of all of our listener members on Patreon. Your contributions
Speaker 1: are helping us to do work like this. You can
Speaker 1: find that link to support our work in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Patrons also get access to add free episodes and early
Speaker 1: releases of episodes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you
Speaker 1: next time.