1 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Later this week 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: we will have the third installment of our series with Earth, 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: looking at fossil fuel involvement in schools. But today we 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: have an update on our season five story. American attorney 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: Stephen Donziger, who's been on house arrest for more than 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: seven hundred days as a result of his involvement in 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: the Chevron, Ecuador case, was sentenced last week on Friday. 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: This court has already determined pre trial that mister Donziger, 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 2: if convicted, would not be sentenced to more than six 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 2: months in prison or a five thousand dollars five. 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: Donziger was given the maximum, a six month jail sentence, 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: despite having served, as I said, more than seven hundred 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: days on house arrest already. It's the sentencing that Donziger 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: and his team were expecting, and there are multiple appeals 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: underway already. We'll have updates on all of that. Our 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: reporter Karen Savage was in the courtroom during the sentencing. 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: I'll be joined by her after the break. We also 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: talked to Donziger in the lead up to the hearing 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: and spoke with a few other folks after the sentencing. 20 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: All of that is coming up after this quick break. 21 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 3: A long time, no talk. How are you, how have 22 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: you been? 23 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 4: You know, we continue fighting to you know, get justice 24 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 4: for the people of Ecuador and to you know, make 25 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 4: sure the lawyers, including me or protect did Obviously, this 26 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 4: has been a hell of an ordeal. I've been in 27 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 4: house arrest for two years two months on a misdemeanor. 28 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 4: Unprecedented US history, as I think, you know, ever given 29 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 4: a lawyer convicted of the supposed crime that I committed 30 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 4: is ninety days at home detention. And again I've been 31 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 4: more than eight times that already and I haven't even 32 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 4: been sentenced. So my sentencing is next Friday. Judge Presca, 33 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 4: who I believe was appointed illegally by the charging judge 34 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 4: in a case that was rejected by the normal federal prosecutor. 35 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 4: She's going to sentence me. She has, according to her, 36 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 4: she has the right to put me in prison for 37 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 4: six months on top of the two years plus of 38 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 4: house arrest. And We're going to go in there in 39 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 4: good faith and request that she let me go home 40 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 4: and be free, get my passport back, and continue my 41 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 4: human rights work. This is this length of my detention 42 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 4: is unprecedented, unjustified. I believe it's arbitrary, and I believe 43 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 4: it's illegal. 44 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: Right so much as happen, and since we've last talked, 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: so not only the bench child of the conviction and the 46 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 3: upcoming sentencing, but you've gotten a ton of support. Can 47 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: you tell a little talk a little bit about all 48 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 3: the organizations and different folks that have written or expressed 49 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: letters of support. 50 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 4: Sure, I have support, you know, from a lot of 51 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 4: people and organizations that I you know, just stepped up 52 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 4: because they recognize that what's happening to me is terribly 53 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 4: unjust and that it represents really an attack on indigenous 54 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 4: rights and Indigenous people who want to historic pollution judgment 55 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 4: against a big oil company. You know, everyone knows. I 56 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 4: think that looks at this that this goes way beyond 57 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 4: Stephen Donziger. You know, this is a wholesale attack by 58 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry on the very idea of indigenous 59 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 4: rights and environmental justice and human rights lawyer for that matter. 60 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 4: So they're really using my case to try to destroy 61 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 4: the very idea that these types of cases can be 62 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 4: done and that lawyers, you know, have the right to 63 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 4: do these cases and you know, they're trying to create 64 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 4: a situation where if I, if a lawyer in this case, 65 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 4: me can be detained at home for over two years 66 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 4: for winning a human rights case against an oil company. 67 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 4: No one will do the work and the industry will 68 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 4: have fewer these types of challenges and courts, you know, 69 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 4: not just in the United States, but all over the world. 70 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: So there's an industry wide strategy to the attacks on me. 71 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 4: They're being facilitated by two US federal judges who are 72 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 4: come out of the federalist society, and they're very pro 73 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 4: corporate and I believe they're abusing their power. And you 74 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 4: know what we're seeing now in the United States is 75 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,679 Speaker 4: you know the trend that sort of has been going 76 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 4: on in other countries like China and Russia and Hungary 77 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 4: and Saudi Arabia and Brazil now of you know, authoritarian 78 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 4: leaders using the courts and criminal cases, it's fake criminal 79 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 4: cases to attack their political opponents. That's now happening here 80 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 4: and you see it in my case, not so much 81 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 4: the government but Chevron. You know, the fossil fuel industry 82 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 4: has so much power now over our federal courts they 83 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 4: are able to essentially take control of the machinery of 84 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 4: the prosecution and prosecute me directly through a Chevron law firm, 85 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 4: which has never happened before. So this is a corporate 86 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 4: prosecution under the rubric of the United States government, but 87 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 4: it's controlled by Chevron, and it's really scary. So, you know, 88 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 4: these very dangerous trends that I think threatened free speech, 89 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: threaten the rule of law, threatened advocacy, threatened democracy are 90 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 4: penetrating our country now in ways that we have never 91 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 4: seen before. And that's manifesting in my case. 92 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: Your case has been going on so long that when 93 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 3: it first started, that had kind of just begun in 94 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 3: this country. But now if you look at all the 95 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: states have some of so any protest laws. If you 96 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: look at Mbridge that literally has admitted paying off law 97 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: enforcement or energy transfer in Louisiana, that bought its own 98 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: security uniform of shares officers to chef deputies that in 99 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: recent years or months, If you put together all of 100 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 3: those things, it's a really horrible picture. 101 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: It is it is. And you know, look, the corporate power, 102 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 4: particularly of the fossil fuel industry in our country, in 103 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 4: the United States, has never been stronger, and it's just 104 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 4: shocking to me that our institutions that normally are designed 105 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 4: to check corporate power, like the Congress, the courts, the 106 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 4: president executive branch, are pretty much under the sway of 107 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry in ways that people can't even 108 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 4: see your I don't even think fully real lives, you know. 109 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 4: For example, in the Line three protests, the fact that 110 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 4: the pipeline company is paying public police means that those 111 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 4: police are answering to the company. They're no longer public police, 112 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 4: and they're arresting you know, protesters, including indigenous protesters, who 113 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 4: are on their own territory, by treating you know, that 114 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 4: is part of the trend Chevron taking over the prosecutorial 115 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 4: function in New York after the charges from this you know, 116 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: pro Chevron judge were flat out rejected by the regular 117 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 4: federal prosecutor. All these things are part of the problem 118 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 4: that you identify and others identify, you know, enhance penalties 119 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: for protesters trying to claim that anyone exercising their free 120 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 4: speech rights around an oil installation could be charged with terrorism. 121 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: These are all very dangerous. These are all very dangerous 122 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 4: to be moments that I believe threatened, you know, the 123 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 4: rule of law in America and really raised questions about 124 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 4: what kind of society we want to live in. 125 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 3: You know, they are now going back and resurrecting this 126 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 3: investigation in Ecuador. And I know you said you had 127 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: just really learned about this, But why might they be 128 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 3: doing that? Do you have any kind of theories. 129 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 4: Of Oh, I think that it's a desperate attempt by 130 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 4: Chevron to come up with some other what they would 131 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 4: call some determination by some low level prosecutor that might 132 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 4: support their theory that the you know, the historic decision 133 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 4: against them that was won by indigenous peoples and farmer 134 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 4: communities with somehow the product of fraud, and that's what 135 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 4: they're trying to do. You know. The problem they have 136 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 4: is despite spending literally three billion dollars on sixty law 137 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 4: firms and two thousand lawyers, six PR firms and one 138 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty investigators, who knows what else. I mean, 139 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 4: they have websites up created just to smear my reputation. 140 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 4: They spent massive sums of money. They have failed, utterly 141 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 4: failed to get rid of the financial risk they face 142 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 4: as a result of this historic court victory. So, you know, 143 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 4: having spent so much money, they're down in Ecuador. There's 144 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 4: a new you know, pro corporate government, Giamo Lasso as 145 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 4: the president. He's trying to appease you know, foreign investors. 146 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 4: He's trying to appease the State Department, which by the way, 147 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 4: works hand in hand with Chevron down there. And part 148 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 4: of this is they lobbied the Attorney General's office to 149 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 4: open up this you know bolt Bs investigation where they're 150 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 4: literally interviewing indigenous peoples and peasants about a supposed fraud 151 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 4: that occurred in the case. It's just pathetic, and you know, 152 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 4: I fully expect this to either die on the vine 153 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 4: because there's no evidence, or they'll just manufacture something and 154 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 4: put out some report that Chevron's lawyers will write claiming 155 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 4: they found evidence of this, that and the other thing. 156 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 4: But you know, it's too late for that. The case 157 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 4: is over. It's been affirmed a twenty eight appellat judges 158 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 4: and equador in Canada, including the highest courts of both countries. 159 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 3: So is there anything else that you think about your 160 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 3: sentencing or what we just talked about about, you know, 161 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: what's going on at Gordon now that you think I 162 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 3: haven't asked or it's important that people know and understand 163 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 3: going forward. 164 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 4: Oh, I will say this, I need support personally. Obviously 165 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 4: what happens to me is connected to this bigger picture 166 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 4: that we're talking about today, but I also want to 167 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 4: survive on a personal level. I have a wife and 168 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 4: a fifteen year old son, and I want to live 169 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: the rest of my life happy and productive. So if 170 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 4: I would just ask that if you're in the New 171 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 4: York area, please come to court in October one. We're 172 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 4: having a rally at eight thirty in the morning, and 173 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 4: then come into court and show your support. If you 174 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 4: can't get there, you can also listen in my telephone. 175 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 4: You can get the number off my Twitter page at 176 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 4: ads Donziger. It's not up there yet, but we're going 177 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 4: to put it up soon. If Judge Presca's sentences me 178 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 4: to jail prison, please don't forget about me. And if 179 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 4: you're around trying to come visit, I don't even care 180 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 4: if I don't know you, like I need visitors constantly. 181 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 4: We need to convey to the authorities in the prison 182 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 4: the courts that I have a lot of support at 183 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 4: all times so I can be protected if I have 184 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 4: to go inside. Although I do hope it doesn't happen. 185 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 4: I think, you know, I think that at this point 186 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 4: there's so many people demanding I be released. As again, 187 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 4: I've stirred now eight times longer than the longest sentence 188 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 4: ever for someone a lawyer convicted of my level of offense. 189 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: So we're going to go in there and good faith 190 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 4: and ask Judge Prescott to release me. And I really 191 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 4: pray it happens. And by the way, if I suddenly 192 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 4: become in komunicado as of like mid morning October, first 193 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 4: you'll we know what happened, but I will be I 194 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 4: will be back at some point. And I want to 195 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 4: also say, first of all, thank you to you and 196 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 4: Amy Westervelt. You guys have really done amazing work to 197 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 4: bring the story to the to the public and your 198 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 4: your your journalism is an example of a check on 199 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 4: the very forces we're talking about, an independent check that 200 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: is all too rare now in America. You know, I 201 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 4: will say that the big media, the New York Times 202 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 4: included CNN, I have completely ignored my attention for over 203 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 4: two years. It don't cover it. So to have journalists 204 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 4: like y'all dig in and the professional, intelligent way that 205 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,599 Speaker 4: you have is a huge important thing, not only to 206 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 4: me people of ecclorbit to our society. So I thank 207 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 4: you for that, and you know, just keep monitoring and watching, 208 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 4: and you know, if I end up getting incarcerated, I 209 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 4: don't want to go to prison, obviously, but I will 210 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 4: go in and you know, deal with it and come out. 211 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 5: Karen, you were at the courthouse today for Donziger's sentencing hearing. 212 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: What was it like? 213 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 5: What was kind of the mood in the courtroom. 214 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: It was tense, I can tell you that. And I 215 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 3: can tell you that it went on seemingly forever, and 216 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 3: I was not even the one being sentenced, so I 217 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 3: can't imagine how long it must have felt for Stephen 218 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 3: Donziger and for his wife and son who were also there. 219 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 5: Oh God, I want to have you talk me through 220 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 5: what like what happened during the hearing and anything that 221 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 5: stood out in terms of what Judge Presca said. 222 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so a bunch of things happened. First up was 223 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 3: the folks for Stephen's side and his lawyers just kind 224 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: of went through all of the reasons why he you know, 225 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: wasn't didn't need to be sentenced to any prison time, 226 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 3: why the time spent on house arrested was more than enough, 227 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 3: you know, not necessarily arguing that he is innocent, although 228 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: you know, he has never said he was guilty of 229 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 3: that crime. But they just went through and they highlighted 230 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 3: the letters of support and so went through all of that, 231 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: went through kind of the history of the fact that 232 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: you know, Okay, some of the time Donziger may not 233 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 3: have filed the correct motion at the right time, or 234 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 3: appealed on time, or did certain things procedurally correct. But 235 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: if you take a look according to what his attorneys argued, 236 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: you know, you've got Stephen Donziger working at his house, 237 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 3: at his apartment, at the table, and on the other 238 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 3: side you've got a you know, an army of lawyers 239 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: at Chevron's disposal. Of course, it's not going to be equal, right, 240 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: And then it was after the attorney went Stephen went 241 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: up and made a statement so which I think was 242 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: really difficult for him. I think the one of the 243 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: hardest parts, I know, even just for me as a 244 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 3: parent hearing was him talk about the times that he 245 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 3: has missed out on spending with his son, you know, 246 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: just having to have the ankle brace went on having. 247 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 3: So I think that that had a big impact on him. 248 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 3: One of the themes that through Donziger's lawyers and his 249 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 3: presentation or his statement, One of the things the lawyers 250 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 3: really stressed was that, you know, Judge Presca can't undo 251 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: all of the things that have happened that they consider unjust, 252 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: that are just you know, all the weird things that 253 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 3: we've talked about that just don't make sense. She can't 254 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: do all of that, She can't correct them. But what 255 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 3: she could do is do no more harm. Once Rita 256 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 3: Glavin got up, she you know, as you know, she's 257 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 3: really deferred to the court for sentencing, she said that 258 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 3: she doesn't agree with all of Ron Kobe's history of 259 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 3: the case because Kobe went through the he went through 260 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 3: pretty thoroughly the entire case, which took quite a while. 261 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 3: You know, she said, to some points where where Kaplan 262 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 3: had ruled differently, and she argued that, you know, Steven 263 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 3: Donziger got where he is based on not complying with 264 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: the court orders. And that was really what she stressed 265 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: during her whole time, was you know that he willfully 266 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 3: didn't comply with what the court said. He it purposely 267 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: told the court he wouldn't comply he has expressed no 268 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: remorse and just kind of really beat home and stressed 269 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 3: his non compliance according to her, with Kaplan's orders. So 270 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 3: it was really kind of back and forth, he says. 271 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 3: She said, and some of the same stuff that I 272 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: think we've talked about before, where if you listen to 273 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: one side, it really strongly appears that one thing happened, 274 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 3: but when you listen to the other side, it really 275 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 3: strongly appears that something else happened. 276 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, that has been That's like a hallmark 277 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 5: of this case across the board. Is just just that 278 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 5: there's no middle ground between the two. But the one 279 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 5: thing that seems objectively true here is that Donziger has 280 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 5: already served effectively two years of a sentence for a 281 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 5: crime that comes with a maximum of six months. So 282 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 5: was that discussed at all? 283 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't discussed by either part, by either side. 284 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 3: But then when Judge Presca read her opinion, she actually 285 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 3: and I think it would have been pre typed before 286 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 3: and she just read off of it. 287 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 6: But what she. 288 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 3: Talked about was that actually being on house arrest doesn't 289 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 3: count as time served. Apparently being on house arrest is 290 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 3: not equal to being detained according to the law, and 291 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 3: you know, she would cite cases and I don't know, 292 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 3: I'm a lawyer. I don't know all these cases. I 293 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: haven't looked them all up. But apparently somewhere back in 294 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 3: the legal system, they've decided if you're on house arrest, 295 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 3: that you are not a officially detained And there was 296 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 3: some discussion also comparing saying, you know, Stephen Donzegeer was 297 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 3: on house arrest and couldn't leave his apartment, but at 298 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 3: the same time, much of New York was on house arrest, 299 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 3: you know, a form of house arrestor in COVID, and 300 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 3: couldn't leave their apartments and couldn't do anything. So he 301 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 3: wasn't really any worse shape than New Yorkers were during 302 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: stay at home orders, which you know, there's one. 303 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 5: I mean, we got back to that like the first 304 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 5: episode of our of the podcast, right where he talked 305 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 5: about all the ways that it's different, including being woken 306 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 5: up in the middle of the night, you know, every 307 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 5: other week when the battery runs out and stuff like that. 308 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, and there's also you know, 309 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: there is it's a whole different situation. You aren't house arrest. Yeah, 310 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 3: this is not supposed to leave your house. Not supposed 311 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: to leave your house means I could run to the 312 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 3: corner store and get a loaf of bread or a 313 00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 3: bagel or. 314 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 5: Something, and I can go to the g store whenever 315 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 5: I want. I can go for a walk whenever I want. Yeah, 316 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 5: people can at least go outside and get a walk 317 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 5: and some fresh air during. 318 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 3: Right and during most of that time, you weren't going 319 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: to face any illegal consequences. Now, however, when you're on 320 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 3: house arrest, if you decide to run to the bodega 321 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 3: to pick up a bagel, or you decide you want 322 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: to go to the park for a run and you 323 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: just go, I mean, there's a whole different level of consequence. 324 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 3: So that to me doesn't really stack up at all. 325 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 5: No, No, So okay, let's talk about what the sentence 326 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,239 Speaker 5: actually was and how Prespa delivered it. 327 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 3: So she went point by point through the contempt charges 328 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 3: and some of theimes. She pushed back on the fact 329 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 3: that he had in fact, in her eyes, not appealed 330 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: some of the things that he said he was waiting 331 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: appeal on. She went through the point where he went 332 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 3: he purposely entered into civil contents in order to be 333 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: able to have an appeal. Hard I said, well, you know, 334 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 3: when you go on to contempt, you don't get to 335 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 3: decide whether it's simil or criminal. It was basically a 336 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 3: straight upholding of Caplan's rulings. She sentenced him to six months. 337 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 5: And then I know that they asked for him to 338 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 5: serve that time on house arrests, right, So how did 339 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 5: that go? It' very it's very confusing sentencing, I think, 340 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 5: so as much as you can kind of unpack the 341 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 5: two appeals that are now under way and and what 342 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 5: exactly it all means for Donzeger. 343 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so my understanding is that he will appeal the 344 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 3: actual conviction and there's a new legal team that will 345 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 3: take over and work on the appeal, and that's an 346 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 3: appeal to the second Circuit, so that I think is 347 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: already kind of in the works and has been planned 348 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 3: and there's nothing changing about that. And what he wanted 349 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 3: was what was considered post conviction bail, and they had 350 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: filed a motion for them, at which Presca denied. Basically, 351 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 3: she reiterated that she thinks he's a flight risk, that 352 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 3: now that he's been convicted, he's even more of a 353 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: flight risk, and so he should be detained, you know, 354 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 3: he should be detained, And so she denied the request 355 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: for bail. Normally, what that would mean would be that 356 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: the marshals who actually came into the courtroom like right 357 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: around the time she said that, and they were standing 358 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 3: in the back. I was just like, wow, these guys 359 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 3: are really moving in. But he could have been detained 360 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 3: right there. Donziger, his legal team, everybody who was with 361 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 3: him pretty much said beforehand, even he's going to get 362 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 3: six months. So they, I'm sure had already realized that 363 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 3: if the bail request was denied, they would immediately appeal 364 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 3: the denial because they now are appealing the denial of bail. 365 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 3: He gets to stay out with the understanding that he 366 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 3: would file the request for an expedited appeal only of 367 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: the bail, of whether or not he on the bail, 368 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 3: you know, is on bail or is not on bail 369 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 3: within a week. And so ultimately in that in that question, 370 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: I believe the Second Circuit will make a determination and 371 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 3: whether they say, Okay, this guy has to stay on 372 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 3: house arrest, Okay, this guy is not a flight risk. 373 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 3: He can be free in say New York, or this 374 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 3: guy has to wait the results of his appeal from 375 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 3: behind bars is the Second Circuits decision. 376 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 5: Mm hmm, okay, wow, and that will. 377 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 3: Come I don't know. I know it has to be 378 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 3: filed within a week, but I'm not sure how long 379 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: it will take. A few people I talked to after 380 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 3: the hearing seem to think that the UN opinion that 381 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: came out a couple of days ago would likely play 382 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 3: a fairly big role in that, because, you know, on 383 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 3: a global stage, it looks pretty bad when this human 384 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 3: rights lawyer in the United States is on you know, 385 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: is behind bars well, is waiting his appeal. Yeah, yeah, 386 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 3: it does look bad. 387 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, But like I don't I haven't gotten any sense 388 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 5: that PRESCA, for the rest of you know, the court 389 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 5: seems to feel any kind of pressure from these these things, 390 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 5: because that isn't I mean, okay, yes, now that you 391 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 5: in and saying it, but there's been several international bodies 392 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 5: and like you know, legal oversight groups and things like 393 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 5: that that have said this is clearly wrong. 394 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 2: You know. 395 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 3: She openly downplayed that. She said she would quote unquote 396 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 3: take it for whatever it's worth. Wow, you know, she 397 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: downplayed that. She downplayed the fact that Amnesty International had 398 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 3: supported him. The downplaying of any of his supporters was 399 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 3: very noticeable. 400 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 5: Could you talk a little bit about the you know, 401 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 5: he's the type of person who's not going to get 402 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 5: get it until he's you know. 403 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah. So the most probably the most egregeous 404 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 3: thing that I heard her say. And you know, in 405 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 3: the context of the fact that he worked in Ecuador, 406 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 3: in Latin America up against an oil company, and you know, 407 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: Latin America is one of the most dangerous places in 408 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 3: the world to do any sort of environmental work. And 409 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 3: she says that only the proverbial two by four between 410 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 3: the eyes will instill in him any respect for the law. 411 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,959 Speaker 7: They actually allowed people to call into the sentencing hearing, 412 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 7: and we were able to tape this part of Presco's 413 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 7: ruling so you can hear it for yourselves. 414 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: Mister Donzicker's offenses are extremely serious. Given mister Donziger's repeated 415 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 2: willful refusal to obey court orders, it seems that only 416 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: the proverbial two by four between the eyes will instill 417 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 2: him in him any respect for the law. 418 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 3: She even blamed him at one point for running up 419 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 3: the costs associated with the prosecution because he filed too 420 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 3: many emotions and too many requests for delays or this 421 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 3: or that, and you know, I believe still is every 422 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 3: defendant's right to vigorously defend themselves. 423 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 5: So you talked to some folks immediately after the hearing. 424 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 5: What what did you hear from people? 425 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there was a you know, everybody went downstairs. 426 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 3: There's a press conference outside, and after that was done. 427 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 3: I talked with Paul a little bit, who really kind 428 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 3: of put this in perspective. 429 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: This is Paul Pozziminho with Amazon Watch. Karen caught up 430 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: with him on the steps of the courthouse just after 431 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: the sentencing. 432 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 6: All right, So Paul or outside the courthouse the hearing, 433 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 6: and he just got on, what are you what's your gun? 434 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 8: Well, kind of as other people were expressing, I'm not surprised, 435 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 8: but I'm no less disgusted by what I saw. And 436 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 8: actually I am surprised by a couple of things. First, 437 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 8: Judge Prescott, we all knew she was going to convict Stephen. 438 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 8: There's a foregone conclusion. She said it in as many 439 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 8: words when the trial started. And we also knew that 440 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 8: she was working hand in glove with Kapla, who as 441 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 8: Kobi mentioned was not only the aggrieved party, but he 442 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 8: hired the prosecutor, he picked the judge, and he's still 443 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 8: a judge on the case. So it overturns any idea 444 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 8: of our justice system. 445 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 3: Right. 446 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 8: But what she did was she kind of thumbed her 447 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 8: nose at the idea that this is in any way 448 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 8: a bad thing and said Stephen should be hit in 449 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 8: the head with a proverbial tu by four. I mean 450 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 8: she literally said that after the UN Working Group on 451 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 8: Arbitrary Detention claimed that what he's gone through as a 452 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 8: human rights violation, not only should he be released, but 453 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 8: compensated for it, and she said, quote, I take that 454 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 8: for what it's worth, which you know, in my mind 455 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 8: I had images of her just ripping up the paper 456 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 8: and throwing it into the trash, because that was clearly 457 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 8: what she thought about. That all the defense kept going 458 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 8: through my mind when they were when Prescoe was reciting 459 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 8: her decision, her sentencing, that everything that they're saying Stephen 460 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 8: did was in the context of hundreds and hundreds of 461 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 8: other things that he was doing in the most well 462 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 8: financed corporate attack against a lawyer that we've ever seen. Right, 463 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 8: So he's going over the course of decades, largely on 464 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 8: his own because Chevron intimidated, scared, or bribed away other 465 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 8: lawyers that would work with him. And you guys have 466 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 8: talked about that on the podcast, so everyone knows the story. 467 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 8: And yet so this one guy, he doesn't comply with 468 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 8: some of the orders, and they're like, ah, and here's 469 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 8: our chance. Let's throw him in jail. Let's turn it 470 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 8: into it actual crime. Let's find the maximum sentence, find 471 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 8: a judge who will say things like, let's hit him 472 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 8: in the head with the proverbial two by four and 473 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 8: case closed. So it's they're playing the role of villain perfectly. 474 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 8: It's like it was written before. They've got to go 475 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 8: through to the m Now. My hope is that it's 476 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 8: reached the point now that so many other people cannot 477 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 8: turn their eye anywhere like Biden Garland. They can't pretend 478 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 8: this doesn't exist. Too many people have brought it to them, 479 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 8: too many respected authorities. And now that there's been a sentence, 480 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 8: someone can step in and say, Okay, this sneeze is stop. 481 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 8: We're gonna pardon him or commute a sentence or whatever. 482 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 8: But the pressure's got to be on because Biden, for example, 483 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 8: can't I'm waiting for the day there's a White House 484 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 8: press conference and somebody says something about the fossil fuel industry, 485 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 8: and a reporter finally asked a question, what about this 486 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 8: lawyer who's been locked up? And they can't say, oh, well, 487 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 8: that was a civil issue. We don't get it because 488 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 8: the US government is now is now putting him in jail, 489 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 8: despite the United Nations saying they shouldn't. 490 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 3: Doesn't it seem like they're just pushing, push and pushing 491 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: until at some point they're like doing they're. 492 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 8: Doing themselves in Well, I think I think there's somebody 493 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 8: at Chevron, honestly who's thinking, what did we do with 494 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 8: They created a monster with Caplin, because, as as Koobe 495 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 8: pointed out in twenty seventeen, I guess it was they won. 496 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 8: Stephen was at his lowest point. And I know personally 497 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 8: because I've been involved forever and I was like one 498 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 8: of the few people that was still talking to Steven. 499 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 8: So many people, Oh he's toxic. He was found, you know, 500 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 8: was confirmed. There's nothing can be done. We have to 501 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 8: back off this. This was a loss for the entire 502 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 8: environmental movement because Chevron was able to do what they did, 503 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 8: and they couldn't just take it. Yeah, yeah, and they 504 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 8: couldn't just take that win and leave it alone. But 505 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 8: by going after Kaplan and Kaplin's that this also shows 506 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 8: you the personal animosity that Kaplan has. This is a 507 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 8: mechanism of his wanting to destroy Stephen as much as Chevron, 508 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 8: and so someone I think as Chevron is going this, 509 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 8: this is not good for us. This doesn't help now 510 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 8: that the UN is ruling about Donziger being a human 511 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 8: rights victim of human rights violations, that does not help 512 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 8: Chevron in any way. And they've got to have thought, 513 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 8: why do we let this get out of hand? But 514 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 8: between Gibson, Dunn, Kaplin and Presca and the other actors 515 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 8: at play who have decided that like they're going to 516 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 8: elevate themselves by bringing Stephen down, they've created their own monster, 517 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 8: and you know, my hope is that that ultimately will 518 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 8: be their undoing. 519 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: Okay, I got worried when the marshals came in. 520 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 6: Me too. 521 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 8: Why are marshals here? Two of them? Yeah, I was 522 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 8: worried they were going to take the. 523 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 3: Particularly like what the criminal thing is when they show up? 524 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 3: You know? 525 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 8: Yeah, Well, she I guess she exercised some restraint on 526 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 8: not having him taken away in chains literally because she 527 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 8: could have done that. But I think she doesn't. You know, 528 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 8: she's so all powerful in this realm that she doesn't 529 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 8: really need to. She can still deny him bail and stuff. Now, 530 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 8: the real question is the appeal well, and. 531 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 3: The appeal of the denial of a base. 532 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 6: Yes, yes, specifically you know what I mean. 533 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 3: Will the second second let him stay out based on 534 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 3: their bigger appeal or will you know, how will. 535 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: They fall in this? 536 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 8: See, I think we have an opportunity to get to 537 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 8: those judges with the stuff that's just come out about 538 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 8: the un and then bide admistration. If they turn to 539 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 8: them and say, and this isn't going to be public, 540 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 8: nothing's going to be on the record, but someone's going 541 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 8: to pick up the phone and say, it looks really 542 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 8: bad for us if you throw this guy in jail 543 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 8: while he's appealing, right, just let him at least do that. 544 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 8: They may not say, don't put him in jail ever 545 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 8: if he loses his appeal, But I got to think 546 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 8: somebody is going we are now taking heat for this. 547 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 8: You know, there was a journalist who turned to me 548 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 8: today and said, I think it was James North from 549 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 8: the Nation, who's written so many great pieces about this. 550 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 8: He's like, this is the last thing that Chevron wants today. 551 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 8: Look at all these cameras and the appeal of the bail. 552 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 8: They do not want him to lose that because it 553 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 8: will just make it look worse for that. 554 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 3: As far as next steps, I asked ron Koby before 555 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 3: anything started, I said, you know what happens next? Is 556 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 3: it conceivable that this is all resolved, whether Steven spent 557 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 3: six months in jail or not. And then the next 558 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 3: step is we are all back in Judge Kaplan's courtroom 559 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 3: for the next round. And he said the answer is 560 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 3: nobody knows. Nothing like this has ever happened before. And 561 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 3: that's you know, that's really the case. No one at 562 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 3: this point can actually predict what will happen. Chevron still 563 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 3: has emotion out for some sixty billion dollars that they 564 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 3: want from Stephen. So where this ever ends is anybody's guest. 565 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 3: And I think Steven said it after the sentencing too, 566 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 3: he said he honestly doesn't think this will ever end. 567 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 5: Has he talked at all about what he's going to do, 568 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 5: because we covered this previously, but just to remind people, 569 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 5: they also went after his law license and successfully got 570 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 5: him disbarred, so he no longer can practice law. He 571 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 5: you know, they're obviously watching for him to profit in 572 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,959 Speaker 5: any way or even have any connection, it seems like 573 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 5: to the Ecuadorians. Did you get a sense from him 574 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 5: of kind of what he's going to do from here 575 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 5: on out? 576 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: I didn't this time, but I do, you know, know 577 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 3: that there's still efforts to collect on the Ecuadorian judgment 578 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 3: in other places. Whether or not that can ever go 579 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 3: through because of the things we've talked about, the international 580 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 3: arbitration and some different things is anybody's guess. But I 581 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 3: think that if that's a possibility, I cannot see him 582 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 3: giving up. I mean, he said really clearly that he's 583 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 3: going to continue, I think, to exact quotas, but will 584 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 3: continue fighting for the justice of the people in Ecuador 585 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 3: and make sure that the lawyers and you know, people 586 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 3: who do the work are protected. So he hasn't in 587 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 3: any way forgotten about the people in Ecuador. In fact, 588 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 3: one thing that he consistently when I talked to him 589 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 3: last week and then again today, kept bringing back is 590 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 3: that what Chevron wants everyone to forget are people in Ecuador, 591 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: and so you know, he constantly has that on his mind, 592 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 3: so he's surprised. If you work along those lines, you know, 593 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 3: there's plenty of things you can do as an individual 594 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 3: who is not a lawyer, to you know, further human rights, 595 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 3: to end pollution, and you know, to stop climate change, 596 00:34:42,960 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: and to do all the things along that kind of work. 597 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: Drilled is a critical Frequency production. The show is produced 598 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: and reported by me Amy Westerveldt. My co reporter for 599 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: this season is Karen Savage. Our editor is Julia Ritchie. 600 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: Original score composed by b Beeman. Our artwork this season 601 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: was created by Matthew Fleming. Our first Amendment attorney is 602 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 1: James Wheaton. You can see photos related to this story, 603 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: as well as several companion pieces on our website at 604 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: drillednews dot com. Researching and reporting stories like this requires 605 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 1: a lot of time and resources. We appreciate the support 606 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: of all of our listener members on Patreon. Your contributions 607 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: are helping us to do work like this. You can 608 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: find that link to support our work in the show notes. 609 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: Patrons also get access to add free episodes and early 610 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: releases of episodes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you 611 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: next time.