1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:22,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin. So this is absolutely true. I had in any suits. 2 00:00:22,916 --> 00:00:24,836 Speaker 1: I went to Paul Stewart and I bought two suits 3 00:00:25,236 --> 00:00:27,276 Speaker 1: and I saw these suspenders. The guy said, you're working 4 00:00:27,276 --> 00:00:29,036 Speaker 1: on Wall Street. You know the guys on Wall Street. 5 00:00:29,036 --> 00:00:32,196 Speaker 1: We're suspenders. And I'd never wearn suspenders, but I saw 6 00:00:32,316 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 1: the red suspenders with the gold dollar signs, and I 7 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 1: thought this would be funny. People will think it's funny. 8 00:00:37,756 --> 00:00:40,996 Speaker 1: Oh my god. People didn't think it was funny. I mean, 9 00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:43,396 Speaker 1: this was for me. This was like, huh, I'm going 10 00:00:43,436 --> 00:00:45,436 Speaker 1: to Solomon Brothers and going to play at being an 11 00:00:45,436 --> 00:00:48,756 Speaker 1: investment banger. Why not dress the part. I didn't realize 12 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:51,676 Speaker 1: that I was about to enter an irony free zone. 13 00:00:52,436 --> 00:00:56,516 Speaker 1: I was just trying to make work fun and instead 14 00:00:56,596 --> 00:00:59,156 Speaker 1: I looked like this asshole who actually would wear red 15 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:01,276 Speaker 1: suspenders with gold dollar signs. And it was it came 16 00:01:01,316 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: across literally, you were the wolf of Wall Street. I 17 00:01:04,756 --> 00:01:06,516 Speaker 1: was the wolf of Wall Street. I was not. It 18 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:09,836 Speaker 1: was like the antelope of Wall Street or the or 19 00:01:09,876 --> 00:01:12,996 Speaker 1: the rabbit of Wall Street. I was not at the 20 00:01:12,716 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: Wall Street. Hi, I'm Michael Lewis, once the rabbit of 21 00:01:17,036 --> 00:01:21,916 Speaker 1: Wall Street. Welcome to other people's money a Liar's Poker Companion. 22 00:01:22,956 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: Thirty years after I published my first book, I'd gone 23 00:01:25,476 --> 00:01:27,836 Speaker 1: back and recorded the whole thing as a new audio book. 24 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:30,676 Speaker 1: The book is what it is as I wrote it, 25 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:33,036 Speaker 1: but this is where I crack opened all the stories 26 00:01:33,036 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 1: behind the book. We're now at episode two, Churning and 27 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:39,756 Speaker 1: Learning on Wall Street, one of the many titles I 28 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 1: considered and rejected for the book as a whole. I 29 00:01:48,796 --> 00:01:52,516 Speaker 1: had absolutely no idea what I was doing on Wall Street, 30 00:01:52,676 --> 00:01:54,836 Speaker 1: and when I got to Solomon Brothers, they were people 31 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:57,756 Speaker 1: who were apostle to my ignorance. But there were people 32 00:01:57,756 --> 00:02:00,276 Speaker 1: who helped me along and kind of taught me stuff, 33 00:02:00,516 --> 00:02:02,956 Speaker 1: sometimes while even knowing they were doing it. And these 34 00:02:02,996 --> 00:02:06,756 Speaker 1: people found their way into the book, often pseudonymously. So 35 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:08,796 Speaker 1: just recently I went back to a couple of these 36 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:11,276 Speaker 1: people to see kind of what they were remembered from 37 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 1: that time. One of them was a bond salesman who 38 00:02:14,716 --> 00:02:17,436 Speaker 1: was next to me at the desk where they plopped 39 00:02:17,476 --> 00:02:19,596 Speaker 1: me down in London when I got out of the 40 00:02:19,596 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 1: training program. In the book, I called him dash rip Rock, 41 00:02:22,876 --> 00:02:28,956 Speaker 1: and here's how I described him. He was American and 42 00:02:29,036 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 1: only twenty three two years younger than I. Still in 43 00:02:32,876 --> 00:02:34,956 Speaker 1: the way of the world, he was light years ahead 44 00:02:34,956 --> 00:02:40,636 Speaker 1: of me. Dash rip Rock was a proven moneymaker. Dash 45 00:02:40,676 --> 00:02:43,476 Speaker 1: often made remarks I didn't understand, such as buy two 46 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:46,676 Speaker 1: year notes and short Old Tens, or short Solomon stock, 47 00:02:46,796 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 1: or save a client, shoot a geek and expect me 48 00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:52,636 Speaker 1: to figure out why on my own. Often I hadn't 49 00:02:52,676 --> 00:02:55,636 Speaker 1: a clue what he meant. But Dash, for all his pithiness, 50 00:02:55,916 --> 00:02:58,996 Speaker 1: had a kind heart. And eventually, after he had sold 51 00:02:59,036 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 1: four different money managers in three different countries on whatever 52 00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:05,756 Speaker 1: new scheme he was promoting, he'd elaborate. In this way 53 00:03:05,796 --> 00:03:11,396 Speaker 1: I learned about trading, selling and life. You called me 54 00:03:11,436 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 1: up to Hampstead to your house and said I want 55 00:03:14,716 --> 00:03:16,276 Speaker 1: you to look at something one night. So I went 56 00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 1: up there, and that's when you showed me like a 57 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:20,916 Speaker 1: lot of hand think. It was handwritten, it was typed out. 58 00:03:20,956 --> 00:03:23,036 Speaker 1: It was like three hundred pages typed out. And I 59 00:03:23,116 --> 00:03:25,756 Speaker 1: sat and read it, and then I looked at you 60 00:03:25,796 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 1: and I said, you're going to sell seven thousand copies 61 00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:30,556 Speaker 1: to the seven thousand employees of Solomon Rose, and then 62 00:03:30,556 --> 00:03:32,516 Speaker 1: you're going to be unemployed and never get another job 63 00:03:32,516 --> 00:03:35,356 Speaker 1: on Wall Street again. And you laughed and said, I've 64 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:39,956 Speaker 1: already sold the rights. It's coming out, ladies and gentlemen. 65 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:43,196 Speaker 1: I'm now in a position to reveal, for the first 66 00:03:43,236 --> 00:03:47,556 Speaker 1: time ever the true identity of my first mentor at 67 00:03:47,556 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 1: Solomon Brothers, Dash rip Rock. His real name is Scott Door. 68 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:55,036 Speaker 1: I said to you, I go, you have to change 69 00:03:55,036 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: the names in this book because I'm making fun of 70 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:01,276 Speaker 1: the chairman. I'm making fun of you, I'm making fun 71 00:04:01,276 --> 00:04:04,796 Speaker 1: of the firm. I'm hazing you mercilessly. It's you know, 72 00:04:04,556 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 1: the pledge training all this, And I was like, you 73 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 1: really have to change my name because I'm not ready 74 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:11,836 Speaker 1: to leave the business here at the age of whatever, 75 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 1: twenty six or whatever I was at the time, as 76 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: I remember it. When I asked Scott what he wanted 77 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:21,556 Speaker 1: his pseudonym to be, he already knew. Now Dash rip 78 00:04:21,596 --> 00:04:23,676 Speaker 1: Rock turns out to be a character from the nineteen 79 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:30,436 Speaker 1: sixty sitcom The Beverly Hillbillies. Don't but he ain't no Dash. 80 00:04:33,556 --> 00:04:35,756 Speaker 1: And the training program there was a book equivalent of 81 00:04:35,796 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 1: the Pickbook, you know that they sent out a freshman 82 00:04:38,316 --> 00:04:39,796 Speaker 1: year in college back in the day, and they had 83 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:42,396 Speaker 1: all the pictures of all the people. It was probably 84 00:04:42,396 --> 00:04:45,076 Speaker 1: one hundred twenty five people in that class. And I 85 00:04:45,116 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: had nicknamed one guy in the class dash rip Rock 86 00:04:48,396 --> 00:04:51,996 Speaker 1: because he was that guy lived on Park Avenue, you know, 87 00:04:52,116 --> 00:04:55,436 Speaker 1: drove a Porsche, you know, had you know, five thousand 88 00:04:55,476 --> 00:04:58,836 Speaker 1: dollars suits in nineteen eighty three, you know, so I 89 00:04:58,876 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 1: thought that was a funny name, so I just stole 90 00:05:01,356 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 1: it back from him. So when you read it, your 91 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:06,676 Speaker 1: takeaway was everyone, as Solomon Brothers, is going to read it, 92 00:05:06,716 --> 00:05:08,396 Speaker 1: but no one else is going to be interested, right, 93 00:05:08,436 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 1: I thought it was too much inside baseball at the 94 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:13,356 Speaker 1: end of the day. You know, what do you put 95 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:15,556 Speaker 1: on the cover? You know, I'm a bond salesman. I mean, 96 00:05:15,596 --> 00:05:18,716 Speaker 1: who who cares? I mean, you know, nobody. There was 97 00:05:18,756 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 1: no glory or drama in that world until really until 98 00:05:24,396 --> 00:05:29,236 Speaker 1: your book. Did you do you remember the reaction in 99 00:05:29,276 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 1: the firm when the book came out, a mix of horror, fear, 100 00:05:34,116 --> 00:05:37,876 Speaker 1: and glee. I'd say it was like reading page six 101 00:05:37,916 --> 00:05:40,716 Speaker 1: in the Posts, only three hundred pages of it there. 102 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:42,516 Speaker 1: You know, it was a parlor game, all right, who 103 00:05:42,596 --> 00:05:46,436 Speaker 1: is this guy? And the ones that you protected by 104 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: using pseudonyms and another were the ones you didn't protect? 105 00:05:50,876 --> 00:05:54,156 Speaker 1: By putting their real names in. I think. I think 106 00:05:54,156 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 1: I mainly protected the little people and mainly didn't protect 107 00:05:57,396 --> 00:05:59,716 Speaker 1: the big people. The real names were the names of 108 00:05:59,756 --> 00:06:01,636 Speaker 1: the people who were kind of prominent in the firm. 109 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:04,676 Speaker 1: But did people quickly figure out you were Dash Rip 110 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 1: Rock Oh in thirty seconds? Yeah? Did you think, oh, 111 00:06:08,876 --> 00:06:12,316 Speaker 1: I'm in trouble. Oh? I went I was, you know, 112 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: looking for another job fairly quickly. But at the same 113 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:19,956 Speaker 1: time I was not super comfortable with you know, what 114 00:06:19,996 --> 00:06:21,916 Speaker 1: was going on, and I got from a bond department 115 00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:24,836 Speaker 1: at the time and who I was reporting to and 116 00:06:25,076 --> 00:06:28,996 Speaker 1: responsible to, so and as you saw what happened shortly afterwards, 117 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:30,956 Speaker 1: firm fell apart. It was a good time for you 118 00:06:30,996 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 1: to write that book and me to be forced to leave. 119 00:06:33,556 --> 00:06:36,796 Speaker 1: Did you feel like you were forced to leave by 120 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:41,396 Speaker 1: the book? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, I didn't know that. Really, 121 00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:44,956 Speaker 1: It's okay, I don't blame you. What's funny about that 122 00:06:45,076 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: is Scott and I had stayed in touch after Solomon Brothers, 123 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:51,516 Speaker 1: I mean loosely, and he never said that basically I'd 124 00:06:51,716 --> 00:06:55,636 Speaker 1: ruined his career there, never brought it up. He'd gone 125 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 1: on to have a long and very lucrative career, Like 126 00:06:58,156 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 1: a lot of the people who I was at Solomon 127 00:07:00,436 --> 00:07:02,436 Speaker 1: Brothers with, we all hit there at just the right time, 128 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:04,476 Speaker 1: with this kind of tidal wave behind us to serve. 129 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:07,756 Speaker 1: And he'd gone through a number of banks and hedge 130 00:07:07,756 --> 00:07:10,476 Speaker 1: funds and had only just a few months before I 131 00:07:10,476 --> 00:07:14,036 Speaker 1: spoke to him retired, But he was still struck compared 132 00:07:14,076 --> 00:07:18,836 Speaker 1: to all those firms. How much power Solomon Brothers had 133 00:07:18,836 --> 00:07:21,436 Speaker 1: exercised back in the day, Like how different a place 134 00:07:21,476 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 1: it was in relation to the rest of the financial system. 135 00:07:25,916 --> 00:07:28,796 Speaker 1: It can't be exaggerated in terms of how much you 136 00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:32,716 Speaker 1: control we had over the level of US interest rates 137 00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:34,996 Speaker 1: and therefore global interest rates at that period, because there's 138 00:07:34,996 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 1: obviously nothing now to compare. It's interesting what you just 139 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 1: said about control of interest rates, because Solomon didn't have 140 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:42,236 Speaker 1: control of interest rates. I mean, the Fed has control 141 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:44,756 Speaker 1: of interest rates, so but on a very micro level, 142 00:07:44,796 --> 00:07:47,636 Speaker 1: like where this bond trades in relation to this bond, No, 143 00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 1: but on the absolute level of rates in a way 144 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 1: even now, you know, a single hedge fund or a 145 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:58,196 Speaker 1: single player can momentarily have a big impact on one 146 00:07:58,236 --> 00:08:01,156 Speaker 1: sector of a market or one specific issue or something 147 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:05,556 Speaker 1: like that. But back then Solomon until a number of 148 00:08:05,596 --> 00:08:10,396 Speaker 1: events shrank their control. There were periods where they would 149 00:08:10,436 --> 00:08:13,116 Speaker 1: go in and they would buy every single thing that 150 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:15,996 Speaker 1: the Treasury would auction, and they would just keep buying, 151 00:08:15,996 --> 00:08:17,836 Speaker 1: and if any prices went down, they would just buy 152 00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 1: more until they turned things around. And that worked at 153 00:08:22,556 --> 00:08:25,676 Speaker 1: an incredibly high percentage hit rate because they were willing 154 00:08:25,716 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 1: to lose more money than anyone else on the path 155 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:32,596 Speaker 1: to making a ton. Solomon Brothers may have felt like 156 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:36,316 Speaker 1: it was an incredibly powerful position entrenched, but even then 157 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:40,076 Speaker 1: its privileged position was under assault. We just didn't fully 158 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:42,556 Speaker 1: realize it. It was just a different culture than say, 159 00:08:42,596 --> 00:08:45,636 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley is where everybody knows enough to be paranoid. 160 00:08:45,676 --> 00:08:48,596 Speaker 1: Everybody knows that someone's coming to get you and will 161 00:08:49,156 --> 00:08:52,916 Speaker 1: things were coming to get us, and we were oblivious 162 00:08:52,956 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: to it. What happened was that the banks and the 163 00:08:55,836 --> 00:09:00,716 Speaker 1: investment banks went from much smaller organizations, you know, with 164 00:09:00,756 --> 00:09:04,516 Speaker 1: people who could jump around department a department with history 165 00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:09,996 Speaker 1: majors trading bonds, to much more specialized worlds where you know, 166 00:09:10,036 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 1: you have thousands of PhD programmers who are fighting to 167 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:17,916 Speaker 1: get one algo a millionth of a second faster than 168 00:09:17,956 --> 00:09:20,756 Speaker 1: another algo and that there's no narrative that really helps there. 169 00:09:20,876 --> 00:09:23,476 Speaker 1: Your potential role is shrinking the whole time, right, it's 170 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:26,076 Speaker 1: becoming much more just you're sitting at the casino and 171 00:09:26,076 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 1: putting your chips on red or black as opposed to 172 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 1: having an edge. You know, the anomalies have been arbitraged 173 00:09:31,036 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 1: out of the business, which is how we made our 174 00:09:32,516 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 1: living for the last thirty years. And when did you 175 00:09:34,556 --> 00:09:36,876 Speaker 1: realize you come to the end of the line. When 176 00:09:36,876 --> 00:09:39,436 Speaker 1: I left the last European bank, who would have been 177 00:09:39,476 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 1: around fifteen, I went to work for a client, and 178 00:09:42,196 --> 00:09:44,396 Speaker 1: I went to work for a large global macro hedge 179 00:09:44,396 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 1: fund where you were basically trading, yes, doing some analysts work. 180 00:09:48,396 --> 00:09:50,556 Speaker 1: I was writing for the firm, But there's essentially it's 181 00:09:50,636 --> 00:09:53,276 Speaker 1: essentially acknowledgement that there isn't really much of a role 182 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 1: for the bond salesman. Correct If I went back and 183 00:09:56,716 --> 00:10:00,476 Speaker 1: wandered the trading floors in the hedge funds of Wall Street, 184 00:10:00,556 --> 00:10:04,356 Speaker 1: now would I see anything that's even vaguely familiar to me? 185 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:07,796 Speaker 1: Or has the world changed that much? No, it's nothing 186 00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 1: that was familiar. So the world that Liar's Poker describes 187 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 1: is thoroughly changed, but Liar's Poker itself remains in some 188 00:10:15,916 --> 00:10:19,796 Speaker 1: kind of time warp eternity. Why on earth are people 189 00:10:19,836 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 1: handing this book out to kids at Harvard and saying, 190 00:10:22,316 --> 00:10:23,476 Speaker 1: you got to read this if you want to know 191 00:10:23,516 --> 00:10:26,996 Speaker 1: how our business works. You know, it's because it's a 192 00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:30,636 Speaker 1: really fun era and it would give a you know, 193 00:10:30,996 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: someone young who was idealistic about coming in and being 194 00:10:34,676 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 1: able to make a difference. You know, it gives them 195 00:10:37,196 --> 00:10:40,516 Speaker 1: some hope that is obviously completely misplaced given the modern 196 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:44,916 Speaker 1: trading environment. Gives them some hope of what that that 197 00:10:44,996 --> 00:10:49,316 Speaker 1: they could have some fun. So that's the fund's been 198 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:51,956 Speaker 1: bled out of it. Yeah, there's no there's no eating goldfish, 199 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:54,076 Speaker 1: you know, standing up in front of five hundred people 200 00:10:54,076 --> 00:10:57,356 Speaker 1: in the trading form Solomon London anymore. So it's used 201 00:10:57,516 --> 00:11:00,116 Speaker 1: to persuade young people that this is still a place 202 00:11:00,156 --> 00:11:02,876 Speaker 1: full of life, where really what it is is a 203 00:11:02,916 --> 00:11:06,436 Speaker 1: place full of machines and silence. There's just no noise. 204 00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:10,316 Speaker 1: That's the amazing thing about particularly hedgephones, even more than 205 00:11:10,556 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 1: the banks. You know, you're just basically tending the machines. 206 00:11:15,956 --> 00:11:18,156 Speaker 1: No one actually talks on the phone anymore. That's the 207 00:11:18,996 --> 00:11:22,516 Speaker 1: most obvious physical changes. People used to stand up on 208 00:11:22,556 --> 00:11:26,036 Speaker 1: their desks and yell and get an arguments and occasional 209 00:11:26,036 --> 00:11:28,756 Speaker 1: fist fights, and then they were on the phone, and 210 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:31,276 Speaker 1: you know, there'd be one hundred open phone lines, and 211 00:11:31,556 --> 00:11:35,516 Speaker 1: it was just this huge cataclysm of noise and risk 212 00:11:35,636 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 1: and fear and greed. It was it was a drama. 213 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:42,636 Speaker 1: There's no drama, now, He's totally right. There was a drama, 214 00:11:42,716 --> 00:11:44,836 Speaker 1: and the telephone was at the center of the drama. 215 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:47,156 Speaker 1: I mean, the mortgage traders would hurl the phones at 216 00:11:47,156 --> 00:11:50,076 Speaker 1: people's heads. There were weapons in addition to like instruments 217 00:11:50,076 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 1: of communication, and when you walked onto the floor, you 218 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:55,356 Speaker 1: could hear all, you know, a thousand voices at once 219 00:11:55,356 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: shouting into phones, shouting each other. But Scott aka Dash 220 00:11:59,916 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 1: wasn't like that. You can hear from his voice that 221 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 1: he's not a shouter. He's a low talker, and he 222 00:12:04,556 --> 00:12:06,956 Speaker 1: would mumble into his phone. In the book, it was 223 00:12:06,996 --> 00:12:08,876 Speaker 1: his phone technique that I used to introduce him to 224 00:12:08,876 --> 00:12:12,996 Speaker 1: the I could tell when Dash was about to sell 225 00:12:13,036 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: a few hundred million dollars of government bonds because his 226 00:12:15,916 --> 00:12:19,076 Speaker 1: torso would jackknife in his chair so that his chest 227 00:12:19,156 --> 00:12:21,436 Speaker 1: was almost in his lap, and his head went into 228 00:12:21,436 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 1: the sound booth. Just before consummating the trade, he'd plug 229 00:12:25,516 --> 00:12:28,196 Speaker 1: his empty ear with a finger on his freehand and 230 00:12:28,316 --> 00:12:31,756 Speaker 1: speak rapidly in a low voice. One of his customers 231 00:12:31,836 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: nicknamed him the Whispering Dash. Then suddenly he'd pop up, 232 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:39,556 Speaker 1: hit the silencer button on his receiver, and shout into 233 00:12:39,596 --> 00:12:42,516 Speaker 1: the hoop, Hey, New York, New York, You're done. On 234 00:12:42,556 --> 00:12:47,876 Speaker 1: October ninety two to September ninety three, one oh yeah, 235 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:51,596 Speaker 1: one hundred million by one hundred and ten millions. When 236 00:12:51,636 --> 00:12:54,476 Speaker 1: he emerged from the tuck position without having sold bonds, 237 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:57,796 Speaker 1: I knew he'd been talking to his mother. It wasn't 238 00:12:57,796 --> 00:12:59,836 Speaker 1: cool to talk to your mother on the trading floor. 239 00:13:01,516 --> 00:13:06,036 Speaker 1: I love describing your phone technique the low talker. You 240 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:08,396 Speaker 1: were a low talker and you would sometimes high actually 241 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:13,436 Speaker 1: go underneath your desk so nobody could hear you. Why, Well, 242 00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:16,556 Speaker 1: it was loud, Yeah, really loud. And the fact is, 243 00:13:16,596 --> 00:13:19,516 Speaker 1: if you're in the middle, if you're orchestrating a transaction 244 00:13:19,556 --> 00:13:21,956 Speaker 1: of you know, a billion dollars worth of bonds that 245 00:13:21,996 --> 00:13:26,196 Speaker 1: are moving really rapidly in price, and the money to 246 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:30,916 Speaker 1: be made or lost is really large. Sums. You really 247 00:13:30,956 --> 00:13:38,476 Speaker 1: don't want a trader's shouting, yelling, hectoring abuse. You don't 248 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:40,916 Speaker 1: want that leaking through into the phone, because the trader 249 00:13:40,956 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: would be screaming, I hate that customer, you know, hang 250 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 1: up the phone, I'm never doing another trade, and you're 251 00:13:46,316 --> 00:13:48,076 Speaker 1: under the thing. You don't want him to hear that 252 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:50,876 Speaker 1: as you complete a transaction and hope he'll come back 253 00:13:51,556 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 1: ten minutes later for another one. So that's why you 254 00:13:54,316 --> 00:13:57,156 Speaker 1: did it. It was editing. I thought you were afraid 255 00:13:57,156 --> 00:14:00,636 Speaker 1: of people hearing what you were saying. Oh no, no, 256 00:14:01,196 --> 00:14:03,516 Speaker 1: not at all. You were afraid of the person on 257 00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:05,276 Speaker 1: the other end of the line hearing what everybody around 258 00:14:05,276 --> 00:14:07,876 Speaker 1: you was saying. Right, you can't let the truth leak through. 259 00:14:09,156 --> 00:14:11,796 Speaker 1: You can't let the truth leak through. This great line, 260 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 1: very dash, rip Rock. I want to thank Scott Dorff 261 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:18,556 Speaker 1: for revealing himself to the audience and for talking to me. 262 00:14:18,636 --> 00:14:21,836 Speaker 1: Coming up after the break, we have one more pseudonymous 263 00:14:21,916 --> 00:14:25,156 Speaker 1: character from Liars Poker whose identity we're going to reveal, 264 00:14:25,956 --> 00:14:33,636 Speaker 1: maybe the most famous character in Liar's Poker, the human Piranha. 265 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:46,556 Speaker 1: Welcome back. In Liar's Poker. There's a long section, probably 266 00:14:46,556 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 1: too long a section about my education in the Solomon 267 00:14:49,836 --> 00:14:52,196 Speaker 1: Brothers training program, And for me it was a way 268 00:14:52,236 --> 00:14:55,156 Speaker 1: of like explaining to the reader all about Wall Street 269 00:14:55,156 --> 00:14:56,796 Speaker 1: through these people who came before us, who knew all 270 00:14:56,836 --> 00:14:59,876 Speaker 1: about Wall Street. And these people were colorful and interesting. 271 00:14:59,956 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 1: But one of them was just more interesting than all 272 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:08,156 Speaker 1: the others, and he was the human Piranha. The human 273 00:15:08,196 --> 00:15:11,316 Speaker 1: Piranha came to tell us about government bonds, though he 274 00:15:11,356 --> 00:15:14,116 Speaker 1: was so knowledgeable about the handling of money that he 275 00:15:14,116 --> 00:15:17,076 Speaker 1: could have spoken about whatever he wished. He was the 276 00:15:17,156 --> 00:15:20,676 Speaker 1: only bond salesman who made traders nervous because he generally 277 00:15:20,756 --> 00:15:23,116 Speaker 1: knew their job better than they did, and if they 278 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:26,636 Speaker 1: screwed up by giving him the wrong price, he usually 279 00:15:26,636 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 1: made a point of humiliating them on the hoot and holler. 280 00:15:29,956 --> 00:15:33,236 Speaker 1: It gave other salespeople great satisfaction to watch him do this. 281 00:15:34,236 --> 00:15:36,996 Speaker 1: The human Piranha was short and square, like the hooker 282 00:15:37,036 --> 00:15:40,236 Speaker 1: on a rugby team. The most unusual thing about him 283 00:15:40,276 --> 00:15:43,836 Speaker 1: was the frozen expression on his face. His dark eyes 284 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 1: black holes really rarely moved, and when they did, they 285 00:15:48,356 --> 00:15:52,956 Speaker 1: moved very slowly, like a periscope. His mouth never seemed 286 00:15:52,956 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 1: to alter in shape, rather it expanded and contracted proportionately 287 00:15:56,876 --> 00:16:00,076 Speaker 1: when he spoke, and out of that mouth came a 288 00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:07,996 Speaker 1: steady stream of bottom line analysis and profanity. I love 289 00:16:08,036 --> 00:16:14,716 Speaker 1: the environment, you know. I love the tension, the competitiveness, 290 00:16:14,916 --> 00:16:19,876 Speaker 1: how fast moving it was, you know, psychologically, I loved 291 00:16:19,956 --> 00:16:25,676 Speaker 1: the immediate feedback of doing a big trade. So that's 292 00:16:25,716 --> 00:16:29,636 Speaker 1: the human piranha. Unlike dash rip Rock, I was too 293 00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 1: scared of the human piranha to call him and ask 294 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:33,476 Speaker 1: him what he'd like his pseudon him to be, so 295 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:36,396 Speaker 1: I just gave it to him. His real name is 296 00:16:36,436 --> 00:16:39,516 Speaker 1: Tom Bernard. He was only, like, I don't know, six 297 00:16:39,596 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 1: years older than me, though at the time he seemed 298 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:44,716 Speaker 1: like the soul and the embodiment of a firm that 299 00:16:44,796 --> 00:16:47,596 Speaker 1: had been around for a hundred years. I thought of 300 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:50,636 Speaker 1: him as the person who had sort of created the 301 00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,396 Speaker 1: firm culture, or helped create the firm culture, but in fact, 302 00:16:53,836 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: like everybody else, he had just adapted to it. The 303 00:16:56,876 --> 00:17:00,796 Speaker 1: thing that really struck me about the culture that's very 304 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 1: different and something that you know, I've had to unlearn 305 00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 1: the behavior over the years was a gallows schumer. When 306 00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: any thing really bad would happen, there was always a 307 00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:19,396 Speaker 1: race to who had the gallows jokes the quickest. Yeah, 308 00:17:19,516 --> 00:17:23,476 Speaker 1: I encountered that day one at Salomon Brothers, and that 309 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:27,596 Speaker 1: lasted through you know the Liar's Poker years when you say, 310 00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:31,076 Speaker 1: when something bad happened in the world, Well, if a 311 00:17:31,196 --> 00:17:35,996 Speaker 1: celebrity would die, you would call around and the guy 312 00:17:36,036 --> 00:17:39,516 Speaker 1: who had the sickest jokes the fastest, you know, would 313 00:17:39,556 --> 00:17:44,676 Speaker 1: get all the high fives. I remember coming out to 314 00:17:45,476 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: snowmass to ski, and I had been on the phone 315 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:54,076 Speaker 1: with the office all morning, and so I'd gotten all 316 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: the latest jokes on celebrity death, and so I'm on 317 00:17:58,836 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 1: a ski lift with these Midwestern ladies and I started 318 00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:06,636 Speaker 1: rattling off the jokes and they looked at me like, 319 00:18:06,956 --> 00:18:09,516 Speaker 1: what rock did this guy just crawl out from money? 320 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:11,836 Speaker 1: They couldn't wait to get off to ski left with me. 321 00:18:11,956 --> 00:18:15,476 Speaker 1: So it was kind of an Aha moment. I realized 322 00:18:15,476 --> 00:18:18,556 Speaker 1: that that that stuff really doesn't travel outside of Wall Street. 323 00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:21,836 Speaker 1: Where do you think it comes from? What's its purpose? 324 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:27,956 Speaker 1: That's a great question. I guess the idea that you can, 325 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:33,916 Speaker 1: you know, kind of break social boundaries, or I'll tell 326 00:18:33,956 --> 00:18:38,396 Speaker 1: you one story it actually happened. The culture was the same, 327 00:18:38,476 --> 00:18:41,516 Speaker 1: but this happened in the early nineties when I was 328 00:18:41,556 --> 00:18:44,876 Speaker 1: at kid or Peabuddy. I sit right on in a 329 00:18:44,916 --> 00:18:47,836 Speaker 1: trading desk, and I'm always listening to all the conversations, 330 00:18:48,476 --> 00:18:51,596 Speaker 1: and it appears that this guy is scolding a clerk, 331 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:54,876 Speaker 1: which you know, we yelled at our clients, and we 332 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:57,556 Speaker 1: yelled at our competitors, and we alled at each other, 333 00:18:57,636 --> 00:19:01,036 Speaker 1: but you know you didn't yell at a clerk. Kind 334 00:19:01,076 --> 00:19:03,076 Speaker 1: of my ears perked up. And the last thing the 335 00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:06,636 Speaker 1: guy says is, Okay, well, I guess you got one 336 00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:09,436 Speaker 1: less guy on the assembly line, so it's going to 337 00:19:09,516 --> 00:19:12,396 Speaker 1: take a little longer. Just get him here by Thursday. 338 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:16,716 Speaker 1: He hangs up, make turn around and say, Mike, what 339 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:20,316 Speaker 1: are you doing? What is that about? And Jeffrey Dahmer 340 00:19:20,396 --> 00:19:27,476 Speaker 1: had been arrested at weekend for cannibalism, and my salesman 341 00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:31,116 Speaker 1: was on the phone with the Ambrosia Chocolate factory in 342 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:37,276 Speaker 1: Milwaukee ordering crates of candy. They were going to call 343 00:19:37,356 --> 00:19:41,116 Speaker 1: them damer bars. They were crunchy and send them all 344 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:45,236 Speaker 1: to all their customers. And you know, you had to 345 00:19:45,236 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 1: guess what you were crunching on. So I'm the adult 346 00:19:48,716 --> 00:19:51,956 Speaker 1: in the room, you know, was ahead of the group. 347 00:19:51,996 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: So I was supposed to be the adult in the room. 348 00:19:54,636 --> 00:19:58,996 Speaker 1: But I realized there would be a mutiny if I 349 00:19:59,076 --> 00:20:04,716 Speaker 1: shut this down. So I negotiated that they couldn't send 350 00:20:04,756 --> 00:20:10,276 Speaker 1: any damer bars to the Wisconsin accounts because somebody had 351 00:20:10,316 --> 00:20:14,596 Speaker 1: a cousin or whatnot that god eaten by Jeff. You know, 352 00:20:14,636 --> 00:20:19,116 Speaker 1: wouldn't be as funny, but it would be. So when 353 00:20:19,116 --> 00:20:23,636 Speaker 1: the bars arrived on Thursday, everybody dropped their phones and 354 00:20:24,436 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 1: jumped on them to send them to clients, and you know, 355 00:20:29,676 --> 00:20:32,676 Speaker 1: go with this Gallo's joke. So that's the kind of 356 00:20:32,756 --> 00:20:38,636 Speaker 1: thing that would not happen anymore. Yeah, that wouldn't happen anymore. 357 00:20:40,196 --> 00:20:45,156 Speaker 1: There's so much that happened that wouldn't happen anymore. And yet, 358 00:20:45,196 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not totally sure that deep down underneath 359 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:52,156 Speaker 1: the surface of the behavior, the spirit of the place 360 00:20:52,196 --> 00:20:55,876 Speaker 1: has changed at all. Back then you just saw the 361 00:20:55,916 --> 00:20:59,876 Speaker 1: spirit of the place on the surface. Anyway, this is 362 00:21:00,156 --> 00:21:03,716 Speaker 1: the human piranha Tom Bernard who had one really big 363 00:21:03,756 --> 00:21:05,716 Speaker 1: effect on me. He was the one who sort of 364 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: let me know I'd really made it. Its Solomon brothers An. 365 00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:11,956 Speaker 1: He did it in a particular way that people still 366 00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:14,396 Speaker 1: talk to me about This is how I described it 367 00:21:14,396 --> 00:21:18,116 Speaker 1: in the book. The most important call of all came. 368 00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 1: It was from the human Piranha. I heard you sold 369 00:21:22,116 --> 00:21:25,556 Speaker 1: a few bonds, he said. I tried to sound calm 370 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:28,996 Speaker 1: about the whole thing. He didn't. He shouted into the phone. 371 00:21:29,356 --> 00:21:33,636 Speaker 1: That is fucking awesome. I mean fucking awesome. I fucking 372 00:21:33,756 --> 00:21:37,076 Speaker 1: mean fucking awesome. You are one big swinging dick, and 373 00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 1: don't let anybody tell you different. It brought tears to 374 00:21:44,196 --> 00:21:46,436 Speaker 1: my eyes to hear it, to be called a big 375 00:21:46,476 --> 00:21:49,956 Speaker 1: swinging dick by the man who years ago had given 376 00:21:49,996 --> 00:21:52,676 Speaker 1: birth to the distinction, and in my mind, had the 377 00:21:52,716 --> 00:22:03,516 Speaker 1: greatest right to confer it upon me the legacy. Before 378 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 1: the lights go out on Liar's poker, the last flash 379 00:22:06,276 --> 00:22:08,276 Speaker 1: is going to be just big swinging dick. That's the 380 00:22:08,356 --> 00:22:12,676 Speaker 1: thing thing everybody remembers. And it wasn't mine, it was yours. 381 00:22:12,716 --> 00:22:15,876 Speaker 1: But where did you get it from? You know? It 382 00:22:15,956 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 1: was something that was said on the trading desk. I 383 00:22:22,676 --> 00:22:25,996 Speaker 1: never heard it until I got to Selomon Brothers. And 384 00:22:26,716 --> 00:22:31,116 Speaker 1: I think that the young people kind of bastardized the meaning, 385 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 1: because when I would hear good Friend or Strauss or 386 00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 1: you know, Craig Coats, the senior guys use it. They 387 00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:44,556 Speaker 1: would use it in the context of, you know, if 388 00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:48,396 Speaker 1: there was an opportunity to take a ton of risk, 389 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:52,036 Speaker 1: they would say, well, if we don't buy them, you know, 390 00:22:52,116 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 1: some other swinging dick will come in, and it meant that, 391 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:59,916 Speaker 1: you know, you were on the edge of being overly aggressive, 392 00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:03,476 Speaker 1: and you know, some big swinging dick will come in 393 00:23:03,516 --> 00:23:07,196 Speaker 1: and take down a block of you know, half a 394 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:11,596 Speaker 1: billion over priced from GMAC. But then as the eighties 395 00:23:11,636 --> 00:23:15,156 Speaker 1: went on, it the definition became just as it was 396 00:23:15,156 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 1: in Liar's Poker. So it went from being something a 397 00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 1: term of maybe slight opprobrium or disapproval to a compliment. 398 00:23:22,396 --> 00:23:27,076 Speaker 1: That's my perception. Yeah, yeah. What's funny about that is 399 00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:29,916 Speaker 1: something similar happened with the book itself, not just since 400 00:23:29,956 --> 00:23:31,996 Speaker 1: I saw him the brothers. I think inside the mind 401 00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:35,836 Speaker 1: of John Goodfriend, the CEO, in the beginning, he did 402 00:23:35,836 --> 00:23:39,676 Speaker 1: not regard it as a compliment. And Tom Bernard remembers 403 00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 1: that beginning this Monday morning, John Goodfriend begins a meeting 404 00:23:44,956 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 1: by describing your book. He says that one of our employees, 405 00:23:48,236 --> 00:23:50,876 Speaker 1: in line of Michael Lewis, has written this book Liars Poker, 406 00:23:51,796 --> 00:23:55,316 Speaker 1: and he gives his view, which was not very positive, 407 00:23:56,436 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 1: but he said he said that he thought we all 408 00:24:02,556 --> 00:24:05,956 Speaker 1: should read it, but he didn't want us to buy 409 00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 1: it because he didn't want you to get the royalties. 410 00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:13,196 Speaker 1: So right after the meeting, I ran out to the 411 00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:16,836 Speaker 1: syndicate desk, which was, you know, right outside the meeting room, 412 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:20,596 Speaker 1: and our publicist, Bob from North Carolina was there. Do 413 00:24:20,596 --> 00:24:22,796 Speaker 1: you remember him? Yeah? I do remember him. So I 414 00:24:22,836 --> 00:24:27,476 Speaker 1: went up to him. He had the galleys and I said, Bob, 415 00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:31,116 Speaker 1: am I in this book? And he said yes. I said, 416 00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:35,676 Speaker 1: am I in it by name? And he said no, 417 00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:40,116 Speaker 1: but you'll recognize yourself. So I looked around and good 418 00:24:40,116 --> 00:24:42,636 Speaker 1: friend wasn't there. So I ran out to Barnes and 419 00:24:42,716 --> 00:24:45,676 Speaker 1: Noble to buy the book because I was, you know, 420 00:24:46,676 --> 00:24:51,276 Speaker 1: in curious, curious what you had said about me, and 421 00:24:51,796 --> 00:24:54,756 Speaker 1: so I'm looking around in the fiction section. I couldn't 422 00:24:54,796 --> 00:24:58,396 Speaker 1: find it, and I went up and asked the gentleman 423 00:24:58,436 --> 00:25:00,196 Speaker 1: at the connor. I said, you know, do you have 424 00:25:00,316 --> 00:25:04,196 Speaker 1: Liar's pokon? He points over to the nonfiction section and 425 00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:07,956 Speaker 1: I said, why is that in nonfiction? And that that 426 00:25:08,076 --> 00:25:11,756 Speaker 1: was the question I had after good Friends. You know 427 00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:14,876 Speaker 1: description of the book. You know, after I read it, 428 00:25:14,916 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 1: I realized, you know this is true. I don't know 429 00:25:19,356 --> 00:25:22,076 Speaker 1: why I asked a guy, because you know it's you know, 430 00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:25,676 Speaker 1: it was a very accurate portrayal of the environment at 431 00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:28,916 Speaker 1: Solomon at the time, and you know everything you said 432 00:25:28,956 --> 00:25:33,156 Speaker 1: about me, and you know it was true. Your character 433 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:36,556 Speaker 1: as it appears before the Trading class is maybe the 434 00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:39,276 Speaker 1: second thing that will go out last with a book. 435 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:45,636 Speaker 1: People remember the human Pirunha. You were scary? Did you were? 436 00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:50,956 Speaker 1: You were aware that you were scary? No, I was 437 00:25:51,036 --> 00:25:55,796 Speaker 1: aware that I was intense, but you know, it was 438 00:25:55,836 --> 00:26:01,196 Speaker 1: a very very intense environment, you know I was. I 439 00:26:01,196 --> 00:26:03,436 Speaker 1: think you called me a Dennison of the trading floor, 440 00:26:03,516 --> 00:26:07,356 Speaker 1: and I was thriving on it. So good Friend tells 441 00:26:07,356 --> 00:26:09,996 Speaker 1: everybody to go read it somehow without buying it, which 442 00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:13,076 Speaker 1: would have been hard to do. Oh yeah, I think 443 00:26:13,116 --> 00:26:17,276 Speaker 1: everybody had Salomon Brothers read the book. I think there 444 00:26:17,356 --> 00:26:22,516 Speaker 1: was a feeling among many that it was you were 445 00:26:22,596 --> 00:26:28,516 Speaker 1: telling stories out of school that yeah that if you 446 00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:32,836 Speaker 1: know someone talks about infidelity at the country club with 447 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:35,836 Speaker 1: the guys and it gets back to the wives, you 448 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:39,796 Speaker 1: know that that person isn't too popular and with the 449 00:26:39,836 --> 00:26:44,276 Speaker 1: guys anymore, you know, So there was some of that that, 450 00:26:45,156 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 1: you know, you were a bit of a tattle tale. 451 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:53,396 Speaker 1: It was the one little niggling feeling of kind of 452 00:26:53,396 --> 00:26:57,116 Speaker 1: guilt I had about the whole enterprise was telling stories 453 00:26:57,156 --> 00:26:59,276 Speaker 1: out of school, and if if there had been any 454 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,236 Speaker 1: real cohesion in the firm, I probably never would have 455 00:27:02,316 --> 00:27:04,756 Speaker 1: written in the first place. But I would say something 456 00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:06,876 Speaker 1: that's funny, and it's a code of the whole story, 457 00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:10,596 Speaker 1: and it's that. As time went by, John Goodfriend himself 458 00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:13,236 Speaker 1: softened in his attitude towards the book. He would come 459 00:27:13,396 --> 00:27:16,356 Speaker 1: to like any public talk I was giving in New York, 460 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:19,596 Speaker 1: and we would chit chat afterwards. And then he confessed 461 00:27:19,596 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: that he'd bought hundreds of copies and he kept him 462 00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:23,636 Speaker 1: in his office, and he'd signed them and given them 463 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:25,876 Speaker 1: away to people when they came to visit him. So 464 00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:28,276 Speaker 1: we come full circle. We come to a place where 465 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 1: everybody seemed to be kind of okay with it in 466 00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:32,876 Speaker 1: the end, and you can hear the human Piranha is 467 00:27:32,996 --> 00:27:37,036 Speaker 1: not really the human Piranha anymore. He's softened. All those 468 00:27:37,116 --> 00:27:39,676 Speaker 1: rides on ski lifts and Aspen has turned him into 469 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:42,396 Speaker 1: a slightly different person. He was a creature of that 470 00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:47,476 Speaker 1: moment in that place, and now he's different. Coming up 471 00:27:47,516 --> 00:27:49,796 Speaker 1: in the next episode, we're going to get another perspective 472 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 1: on what life was like at Solomon Brothers in the 473 00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:55,116 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties and early nineties. How do you think Liar's 474 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 1: Poker would have been different if I'd have been a woman? 475 00:27:58,356 --> 00:28:02,236 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. I can only speak for myself. I 476 00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:08,996 Speaker 1: don't think I could have been that balanced. I think 477 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 1: women feel it deeper in a way. There were times 478 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:14,916 Speaker 1: when I was sobbing. Or was the time I went 479 00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:17,636 Speaker 1: to a lawyer and said, can I do something about this? 480 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:24,196 Speaker 1: You know I was treated poorly. Other people's Money is 481 00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:27,316 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, 482 00:28:27,516 --> 00:28:30,516 Speaker 1: please remember to share a rate and review. You can 483 00:28:30,556 --> 00:28:34,236 Speaker 1: buy our new Liars Poker audiobook, unabridged and read by 484 00:28:34,276 --> 00:28:38,556 Speaker 1: me the author at Pushkin dot Fm, slash Liars Poker, 485 00:28:38,916 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 1: and also at Audible define more Pushkin podcasts, listen on 486 00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:48,076 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 487 00:28:56,396 --> 00:29:00,676 Speaker 1: You were better with customers than anybody I'd ever seen. Really, yeah, 488 00:29:00,716 --> 00:29:07,436 Speaker 1: because you believed in what you were selling, and that's 489 00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:10,676 Speaker 1: where that naivete thing comes in. And you know, it 490 00:29:10,716 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 1: really served you well because the customers really didn't see 491 00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: you as a you know, as a used car sales. 492 00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:18,836 Speaker 1: They saw you as a as a proselytizer. I had 493 00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:20,396 Speaker 1: the ability to seem like I knew what I was 494 00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:27,236 Speaker 1: talking about right when you actually had no clue.