1
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,960
Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, the USS Cowpens and

2
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,440
Speaker 1: her crew weren't your typical heroes. She was a flat

3
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: top that the US Navy initially didn't want, but the

4
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,119
Speaker 1: captain nearly scapegoaded for the loss of his last command,

5
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,920
Speaker 1: pilots who self trained on the planes they would fly

6
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: into combat, and sailors that had been in uniform barely

7
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,640
Speaker 1: longer than the ship had been afloat. Despite their humble origins,

8
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,920
Speaker 1: Cowpens and her band of second string reservists and citizen

9
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,520
Speaker 1: sailors served with distinction, fighting in nearly every major carrier

10
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,120
Speaker 1: operation from nineteen forty three to nineteen forty five. Together,

11
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,199
Speaker 1: they faced a deadly typhoon that brought the ship to

12
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,320
Speaker 1: the verge of capsize and a war's end. There was

13
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: only one US aircraft carrier in Tokyo Bay to witness

14
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,080
Speaker 1: the Japanese surrender The Mighty Move. In the years to follow,

15
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 1: Cowpen's service has become the well spring for a remarkable

16
00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 1: modern tradition, both within the US Navy and the small

17
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,240
Speaker 1: southern town that still celebrates her legacy with the festival

18
00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,520
Speaker 1: every year. The Mighty Moo is a biography of a

19
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,880
Speaker 1: World War II aircraft carrier, as told through the voices

20
00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 1: of its heroic crew, A band of brothers at sea,

21
00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 1: here to discuss his new book. I'm really pleased to

22
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: welcome my guest, Nathan CANISTERO. He is a professional intelligence

23
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,679
Speaker 1: officer whose research on his grandfather's service in World War

24
00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 1: Two led to a decade long effort to undercover the

25
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,800
Speaker 1: story of Calpen's and her crew. He is currently an

26
00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:47,200
Speaker 1: assignment to the National Intelligence Council. Nathan, welcome and thank

27
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:48,680
Speaker 1: you for joining me at Newsworld.

28
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,680
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, sir, it's great to be here. I

29
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 2: appreciate the opportunity.

30
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 1: I have to confess I found the topic absolutely fascinating

31
00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,560
Speaker 1: and from angles I would never have dreamed of. And

32
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,520
Speaker 1: as I understanding, it began with research into your grandfather's

33
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 1: service in World War Two, and that led you to

34
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,640
Speaker 1: a decade long research project of the story of the

35
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,720
Speaker 1: USS Kalpens. What did you know about your grandfather's service

36
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 1: before he started researching? What was it about chatting with

37
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,760
Speaker 1: your grandfather and his service in World War Two that

38
00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 1: led you to a decade long research project.

39
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,680
Speaker 2: The simplest answer to that question is he wouldn't tell

40
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 2: me anything. Like many men of his generation. He was

41
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,240
Speaker 2: traumatized by his experience in the war, and when he

42
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,960
Speaker 2: came home he wanted to put it behind him, and

43
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 2: he would just sort of hint at things that had

44
00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 2: happened to him without really getting into the details. So

45
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,520
Speaker 2: for a guy like me who's interested in World War

46
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 2: two history and grew up with band of brothers and

47
00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,920
Speaker 2: saving Private Ryan, the fact that there was a story

48
00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,400
Speaker 2: here that he was uncomfortable sharing was kind of cat nipped.

49
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 2: And after he passed in twenty ten, I resolved to

50
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 2: go looking for this story to try and find out

51
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,160
Speaker 2: what Grandpa wouldn't tell me. And so do We found

52
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 2: this amazing story about his ship and his crew which

53
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,840
Speaker 2: no one had really ever heard of. It's kind of

54
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,799
Speaker 2: a forgotten aspect of the Second World War.

55
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 1: Talk briefly about your grandfather's own experience in the war.

56
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,919
Speaker 2: Sure, So, he was a tail gunner on a torpedo

57
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 2: bomber in the Pacific, an Avenger torpedo bomber, the same

58
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,400
Speaker 2: sort of plane that George hw Bush flew in in

59
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,200
Speaker 2: the Second World War. And he flew from this light

60
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 2: aircraft carrier called the USS Cowpens and he was part

61
00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 2: of torpedo Scaraj in twenty two, and he arrived in

62
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,760
Speaker 2: the war mid forty four and stayed until forty five

63
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 2: or so February March forty five, spent a lot of

64
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,119
Speaker 2: time in the Battle for the Liberation of the Philippines.

65
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 1: Given that background, well, how did you then make the

66
00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 1: leap to deciding you really want to know about the

67
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 1: aircraft carrier Cowpens?

68
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,960
Speaker 2: Partly because I'd never heard of it. You know, when

69
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 2: you think about WARWICHI aircraft carriers like the Intrepid in

70
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 2: New York City or New York Town in South Carolina,

71
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,800
Speaker 2: the little light aircraft carriers never come to mind. I'd

72
00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 2: never heard of it, and the Navy is very good

73
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,360
Speaker 2: at keeping records, and I started digging through all the

74
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,840
Speaker 2: official documents and sort of learning the story of what

75
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,560
Speaker 2: it went through and kind of some of the characters important.

76
00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 2: I consider myself fairly and well informed on the war,

77
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,479
Speaker 2: But I'm like, why have I never heard of any

78
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,360
Speaker 2: of this? It's kind of this story that just hasn't

79
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 2: been told, and those are pretty rare these days where

80
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,720
Speaker 2: the war were to history. I said to my then

81
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 2: girlfriend now wife at the time, I said, you know,

82
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 2: I think there's a book here, and she said, oh, yeah,

83
00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,120
Speaker 2: you should totally write it. And I don't think either

84
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 2: of us knew exactly how much that entailed or how

85
00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 2: difficult that process is. But once I get a hold

86
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,120
Speaker 2: of something and start pulling on the thread, the more

87
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,280
Speaker 2: you discover, the more it becomes sort of an obsession.

88
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:57,279
Speaker 1: You had already done military history before this, in terms

89
00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,360
Speaker 1: of studying it and being aware of it.

90
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 2: Well, an intelligence officer by training. So the military history

91
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 2: I do is sort of the current day. Most of

92
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,400
Speaker 2: my professional background is the war on Terror in the

93
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,039
Speaker 2: Middle East. I've been in this business for twenty five years,

94
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,840
Speaker 2: so nine to eleven and onwards. I'd always been sort

95
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 2: of a casual enjoyment reader of World War II history,

96
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 2: but never a professional historian. And sort of the sense

97
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 2: that you're alluding to.

98
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: You have this curiosity, how do you go about digging

99
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 1: out the information, tracking it down, et cetera.

100
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 2: Well, the first place to stop is the National Archives,

101
00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 2: and now a lot of the records are being digitized.

102
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 2: You can get them available online, which is great, and

103
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,720
Speaker 2: the Navy's a fantastic record keeper. And there was about

104
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 2: i'd say between three and five thousand pages of records

105
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 2: in terms of what the ship did on a day

106
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 2: to day basis. I also had the benefit of there's

107
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,640
Speaker 2: a Cowpens Reunion Association that is active here in Cowpens

108
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 2: where I am today, that has been sort of collecting

109
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,720
Speaker 2: these materials and is a hub for the folks who

110
00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,680
Speaker 2: served aboard the ship. And they have just been a

111
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,479
Speaker 2: huge help in not only helping me locate the few

112
00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,599
Speaker 2: remaining veterans that are alive, but connecting me to some

113
00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,040
Speaker 2: of the families that have materials left over, both diaries

114
00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 2: and journals and records. And it's some of those stories

115
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 2: that really sort of gives the Cowpins tail. It's life.

116
00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,440
Speaker 2: It's a biography of a ship told through the voices

117
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:26,640
Speaker 2: of the men who served aboard.

118
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:32,440
Speaker 1: From that perspective, what did you find the most useful

119
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,880
Speaker 1: in understanding the story of the USS Scalpens.

120
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,360
Speaker 2: There were a few particular individuals whose diaries and journals

121
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,480
Speaker 2: were critical in helping me understand and I can talk

122
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,080
Speaker 2: about a couple of those. The first one was a

123
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 2: guy by the name of Bob Price, and Bob was

124
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 2: the commander of the ship's first spider squadron, and then

125
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,119
Speaker 2: he moved up to be commander of its air group,

126
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 2: a series of progressively steadily more important jobs aboard ship,

127
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,080
Speaker 2: and sadly he was lost in a typhoon in December

128
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,719
Speaker 2: forty four, but his family kept all his letters home

129
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,240
Speaker 2: and donated them all to the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola.

130
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 2: When you put his story, you know, because he couldn't

131
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 2: be too detailed because there was a censor, but he

132
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 2: would allude to things in his letters, and when you

133
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 2: put that up against sort of the chronology of what

134
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,560
Speaker 2: came out of the official records, you could sort of

135
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 2: see the things that he was alluding to. There was

136
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 2: one letter their first combat mission did not go well

137
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 2: at Wake. They lost four men shot down. Two of

138
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,200
Speaker 2: them just disappeared, two others were shot down but recovered

139
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 2: at sea. And he wrote to his wife and he

140
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,160
Speaker 2: said something to the effect of, you know, familiar faces

141
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 2: fall by the wayside, and it hurts, but over time

142
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 2: we become accustomed and callous to it. And if you

143
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 2: hadn't sort of put those sort of the timeline up

144
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,960
Speaker 2: against the letters, you wouldn't have known what he was

145
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 2: referring to.

146
00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 1: Is there an official US Navy history of the.

147
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 2: Ship, Yes, and their daily reports.

148
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 1: Yes, Sir itself created an archival document just as part

149
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 1: of its operating procedure.

150
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and a lot of it. Every dog fight, every

151
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 2: bombing mission, every day, very very detailed.

152
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,320
Speaker 1: You know, it might help our listeners understand the nature

153
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,480
Speaker 1: of these light carriers, which I think, are they the

154
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 1: same as what we call jeep carriers.

155
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 2: No, they're slightly different. So the jeep carriers were built

156
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 2: on the hulls of merchant ships, tankers or freighters, and

157
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 2: they were slow. They couldn't keep up with the big

158
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,760
Speaker 2: fleet carriers. The light carriers were kind of in between.

159
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 2: And essentially what they did is they took a light cruiser,

160
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 2: which you know, they could go thirty to thirty two knots,

161
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,120
Speaker 2: and they put a flight deck on them. To be

162
00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,640
Speaker 2: perfectly blood, These were not great ships, and it was

163
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 2: only because the US Navy was so desperate at the

164
00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,120
Speaker 2: time that it would ever build a ship like this.

165
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 2: You have to remember that, you know, in that first

166
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,720
Speaker 2: terrible year of the war, we started with six aircraft

167
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 2: carriers and by the end of forty two we were

168
00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,640
Speaker 2: down to two. And the situation was so desperate that

169
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 2: we went to the British and said, hey, can you

170
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,640
Speaker 2: send one of your carriers out to the Pacific for

171
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 2: six months or actually ninety days, sorry, so we can

172
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,120
Speaker 2: send Enterprise into dry dock and get our battle wounds patched.

173
00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,920
Speaker 2: So President Roosevelt, even before the war, he was worried

174
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 2: that there just weren't enough flat tops to fight Japan,

175
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 2: and he tried to convince the Navy to make these

176
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,199
Speaker 2: little light carriers, and the Navy gave them a real fight.

177
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 2: They weren't interested. They had their construction program, they didn't

178
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,880
Speaker 2: appreciate their boss messing around in it. They didn't think

179
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,559
Speaker 2: such a small carrier would be valuable. And FDR gave

180
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,640
Speaker 2: him a fight, and finally he prevailed, and so they

181
00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 2: made one, and they were going to call it quits

182
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,359
Speaker 2: at that, but then they started losing the big carriers,

183
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,079
Speaker 2: and so every time you had a major loss at

184
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 2: seeing Wasp, Pornett, Lexington, New York Town, they'd queue up

185
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,239
Speaker 2: a batch of two or three of these light carriers

186
00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 2: and send them out to the fleet as a backup. Essentially,

187
00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,680
Speaker 2: they were only there until the Essexes, the big ones

188
00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,320
Speaker 2: started becoming available in large numbers in the end of

189
00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:00,120
Speaker 2: forty four.

190
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,920
Speaker 1: How many of the light carriers did they build.

191
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,840
Speaker 2: They built nine. There's a lot of things that are

192
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,680
Speaker 2: notable above them, but one of the ones I find

193
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 2: the need is the two future presidents served aboard these

194
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,319
Speaker 2: light carriers. You had George H. W. Bush served aboard

195
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,000
Speaker 2: the Sanjacinto and Gerald Ford served aboard the Monterey.

196
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,560
Speaker 1: These all took what had been laid down as a

197
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,200
Speaker 1: light cruiser hall and then just had a carrier put

198
00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 1: on top of it.

199
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,959
Speaker 2: Just put a carrier on top of them. And they

200
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 2: were tall. They had a very high center of gravity,

201
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,719
Speaker 2: which made them kind of tippy. They were very unstable

202
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 2: and heavy seas. They had a seventy three foot wide

203
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,439
Speaker 2: flight deck, which was the narrowest flight deck in the Navy,

204
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,840
Speaker 2: and that consequently gave them the highest accident rate in

205
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,960
Speaker 2: the Navy. These ships were very dangerous to fly from,

206
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,840
Speaker 2: and they were really crowded for their crew. I mean

207
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,719
Speaker 2: they were built the whole thirteen hundred sailors aboard a

208
00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,719
Speaker 2: light cruiser. The Navy packed fifteen hundred a board as

209
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 2: a carrier when you added the flight groups and things

210
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,679
Speaker 2: like that, so they left a lot to be desired

211
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 2: as a ship.

212
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 1: This is not on typical that you have FDR, who

213
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 1: was an extraordinarily powerful president, trying very hard to bully

214
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 1: the navy. And Roosevelt had been under Secretary of the

215
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 1: Navy under Woodrow Wilson and had a really deep interest

216
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 1: in the Navy. And only when reality intervenes does the

217
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 1: Navy agree finally to build these characters.

218
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a great quote from FDR. He said,

219
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,840
Speaker 2: fighting with the admirals is like punching a feather bed.

220
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,280
Speaker 2: You punching, You punch, and you punch, and you punch,

221
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,360
Speaker 2: and then you stop punching, and you see the feather

222
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,840
Speaker 2: bed is totally unchanged from when you started to begin with.

223
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,600
Speaker 1: At one point he said something to Admiral King, who

224
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,719
Speaker 1: was the Chief of Naval Operations, like, I know you

225
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 1: think this is your navy.

226
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,200
Speaker 2: He knew the Navy. He knew a lot of the

227
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,839
Speaker 2: major commanders when he was under Secretary of the Navy

228
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 2: during World War One. You know, he joked to you

229
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 2: he was his own secretary of the Navy.

230
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,160
Speaker 1: How many aircraft could these light carriers carry?

231
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 2: Only thirty three that's about a third of the big

232
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,640
Speaker 2: Essex class depending on circumstance, but usually twenty four fighters

233
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,480
Speaker 2: and nine torpedo bombers.

234
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,439
Speaker 1: Roosevelt is starting to build these things. It's a fascinating

235
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,439
Speaker 1: story about how it got to be named the Cowpens.

236
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,520
Speaker 1: This is such a classically American story.

237
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,160
Speaker 2: It really is. So there's a Revolutionary war, the battle

238
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,600
Speaker 2: in upstate South Carolina. It was fought a cow field, essentially,

239
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,560
Speaker 2: and they originally called it the Battle of the cow Pens,

240
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 2: which over time just became Americanized to the Battle of Cowpens.

241
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,040
Speaker 2: And the little town that was nearby, probably ten fifteen

242
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,840
Speaker 2: miles down the road, and the late nineteenth century changed

243
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 2: its name to Cowpens. And then in nineteen thirty two,

244
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 2: the local pharmacists sent a postcard to President Roosevelt. And

245
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,199
Speaker 2: at the time the aircraft carriers were named for battles,

246
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 2: and he wrote the President and said, hey, could we

247
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,120
Speaker 2: get an aircraft carrier named after our battle? And after

248
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 2: our approved the suggestion, passed it on to the Navy,

249
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,200
Speaker 2: and the fourth of these Independence Class carriers became the Cowpens.

250
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 2: And there is a currently serving USS Cowpens in the

251
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 2: United States Navy. Sadly she'll be decommissioned in August. The

252
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 2: second ship was a guided missile cruiser and served with

253
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,959
Speaker 2: distinction since the late nineteen eighties.

254
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 1: So Roosevelt basically names the ship at the suggestion of

255
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 1: a drug store owner, Yes, you, Mike. The point that

256
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 1: the Cowpens got off as an aircraft carrier after it

257
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 1: had been launched, that it's the initial experience is very tough.

258
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,560
Speaker 2: She had a terrible streak of bad luck and people

259
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,760
Speaker 2: began to think, you know, sailors love their superstitions, is

260
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 2: this ship cursed? Had started joking about the Cowpin's jinks.

261
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,080
Speaker 2: The air group when they flew board for the first time,

262
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,640
Speaker 2: that was a total mess. They had several crashes. One

263
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,679
Speaker 2: plane went overboard on their shakedown cruise. They fouled their

264
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,080
Speaker 2: propeller on an anti torpedo net in Norfolk, and they

265
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 2: were hung there for three days. Then maybe had to

266
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:17,960
Speaker 2: come down and cut them loose, and the captain got

267
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 2: a official admonishment on his record. They went out to

268
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,520
Speaker 2: Pearl Harbor and I mentioned their first combat mission was awful,

269
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 2: and then afterwards they were doing training exercises and one

270
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,600
Speaker 2: of their escorting destroyers slammed into her, cut into her side. Thankfully,

271
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 2: no one was hurt on the move, but six men

272
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,880
Speaker 2: were killed on board the destroyer censored to the dry dock,

273
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 2: and in the dry dock they have a gasoline fire

274
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,520
Speaker 2: and an explosion. So her first few months in combat

275
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 2: were just a real mess.

276
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 1: When all of that got done, apparently its fate was turning,

277
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:55,440
Speaker 1: except that it encounters Typhoon Cobra. If I understand it correctly,

278
00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,160
Speaker 1: Pacific typhoons were much bigger than Atlantic hurricane.

279
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 2: There are some of the strongest storms on the planet. Yes,

280
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 2: they're really incredible. They're common at particular times of the year.

281
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 2: The Philippines gets quite a few of them. My grandfather

282
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,720
Speaker 2: never talked about the combat, but boy, he was very

283
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,600
Speaker 2: forthright and how terrified he was during Typhoon Cobra. I mentioned.

284
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,360
Speaker 2: The ship is kind of top heavy, in a little

285
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 2: tippy you know, you're going into a storm with seventy

286
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 2: to ninety foot waves, ruins of one hundred to one

287
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,640
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty knots. And on the bridge they have

288
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,280
Speaker 2: a role meter and it goes forty five degrees to

289
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 2: either side, and according to the captain at the time,

290
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 2: guy by the name of George Debonn, the needle would

291
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,480
Speaker 2: go all the way over to the forty five degrees

292
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,440
Speaker 2: and bounce on the peg at forty five's degree roll

293
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,000
Speaker 2: and then it would go back to the other side

294
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 2: and bounce on that peg. So the ship was somewhere

295
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 2: between forty five and fifty degree rolls for hours on end.

296
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,680
Speaker 1: They're able to keep the aircraft tied down, so they're

297
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:54,960
Speaker 1: not rolling with the ship.

298
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 2: Well, they had one break loose and it caught fire

299
00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 2: and the men had to go out on the flight

300
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,640
Speaker 2: deck and put that out. But the bigger worry was

301
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,240
Speaker 2: the bombs, and the magazine broke loose, So you've got

302
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,920
Speaker 2: five hundred and one thousand and two thousand pound bombs

303
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,560
Speaker 2: bouncing around like tennis balls down there. The sailors had

304
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,720
Speaker 2: to go in and lassow them into place, which is

305
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 2: a pretty remarkable thing to do, given that the ship

306
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 2: is bucking like a wild horse.

307
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 1: That must have been terrifying. Imagine you were part of

308
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 1: the bomb detail and you're down there trying to tie

309
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,160
Speaker 1: down a bomb and the ship was literally going back

310
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,320
Speaker 1: and forth under you in an uncontrollable way.

311
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 2: There was one guy, his name was Heartpence, I believe

312
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,280
Speaker 2: it was, and he went in and he refused to

313
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 2: come out until the job was done. And they said

314
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,920
Speaker 2: that he would work for those brief seconds when the

315
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,480
Speaker 2: ship was kind of level, and then he would jump

316
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 2: up and grab onto the overhead girders and pull himself up.

317
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,000
Speaker 2: They said it was shades of Tarzan, because otherwise this

318
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 2: thing was going to roll over him and crush him.

319
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 2: There were three destroyers that were lost in that storm.

320
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 2: They capsized and sun killed almost eight hs and there

321
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 2: was a board of inquiry for Admiral Halsey. He was

322
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:05,360
Speaker 2: nearly court martials for.

323
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 1: It, for having allowed them to be out at Resk

324
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:08,439
Speaker 1: grow up.

325
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,720
Speaker 2: The charge essentially was that he had had sufficient notice

326
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,440
Speaker 2: that there was a typhoon coming and that he had

327
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,320
Speaker 2: not acted with sufficient care to avoid it. Although in

328
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,119
Speaker 2: his defense, meteorology in the nineteen forties was nowhere good

329
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 2: as it is today. You know, there wasn't a satellite

330
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 2: photo that you could say this is the direction the

331
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,240
Speaker 2: storm was coming from. So there was a certain amount

332
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,879
Speaker 2: of guesswork and of speculation in terms of the weather.

333
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 2: Where is the storm, which direction is it coming from,

334
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 2: and how close it is.

335
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,199
Speaker 1: Why does the cow Pens become the first carrier to

336
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:39,640
Speaker 1: go into Tokyo Bay.

337
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 2: It's because Admiral Halsey didn't trust the Japanese. There was

338
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,879
Speaker 2: a lot of speculation at the time, after sort of

339
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,639
Speaker 2: the betrayal and the double cross of Pearl Harbor, that

340
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,879
Speaker 2: this whole, you know, announcement that Tokyo will surrender was

341
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 2: a trap, that what they were going to do is

342
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 2: they were going to invite the Americans into Pearl Harbor

343
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 2: and then they were going to swarm them with kamakazies,

344
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 2: and it was going to be a terrible slaughter. So

345
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 2: Admiral Halsey has all his big, irreplaceable Essex class carriers

346
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 2: and he wants them safely out at sea where they

347
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,679
Speaker 2: can't be hurt. It's kind of this irony that the

348
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,959
Speaker 2: little carrier that could, that nobody expected so much from

349
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 2: is given the biggest honor in their wartime crid because

350
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 2: she was expendable. Dwaal Halsey didn't eat her.

351
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,280
Speaker 1: In your book, you note that in the course of

352
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 1: the war, this Jinx ship, if you will, steamed over

353
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand miles, launched eleven two hundred and seventy

354
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 1: five sorties, dropped six hundred and twenty tons of bombs,

355
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 1: sank sixteen ships, damaged one of the others destroyed ninety

356
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,399
Speaker 1: three planes in the air and another five hundred and

357
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 1: twelve on the ground and without ever being hit by

358
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 1: the enemy, and she earned twelve battle stars, the most

359
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,399
Speaker 1: of any light carrier. That's a pretty remarkable record.

360
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 2: She had quite a good run. Even from sort of

361
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,199
Speaker 2: a clinical historical perspective, if you had no connection to

362
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: the ship, I think that's still very impressive. And for me,

363
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 2: my grandfather was there, and I've had the opportunity to

364
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,879
Speaker 2: meet a lot of men and their families who were there,

365
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,680
Speaker 2: and they're still intensely proud of what the ship did

366
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 2: for our country during the Second World War.

367
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: When you had a chance to interview veterans, were they

368
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: willing to talk about their experiences on the ship?

369
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 2: Perhaps the way to say it is sometimes they were

370
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 2: selective in the things that they were going to talk about.

371
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,280
Speaker 2: They would be happy to talk about the good times

372
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: they had, the friends they made, what it was like aboard.

373
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 2: Getting them to talk about combat was harder. Perhaps that's

374
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 2: common of so many veterans even today. You don't want

375
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 2: to relive the trauma. You want to relive the good times,

376
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,239
Speaker 2: the brotherhood, the comrade ship. I could sort of as

377
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 2: a historian, put the pieces together between what they told me,

378
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 2: the letters, the documents, and then the official records, which

379
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,400
Speaker 2: were unsparing and describing the fighting at times how close

380
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 2: it was.

381
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 1: As you researched this book, did it change your understanding

382
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 1: of World War Two?

383
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 2: It did. I was listening to your podcast just this

384
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 2: morning about General Eisenhower. That's a great case of sort

385
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 2: of the great Man history theory of history, and I think,

386
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,440
Speaker 2: you know, oftentimes we focus on the generals and admirals,

387
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 2: and you know, there's absolutely a great reason for that.

388
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,679
Speaker 2: This was sort of, for me, a grassroots story of

389
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 2: the war. What was it like for the everyday Americans

390
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 2: who did their bid and came home? Everything from what

391
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 2: was the food like, what was the ship like to

392
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 2: live on? What was it like for my grandfather who

393
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 2: was twenty two years old and never been away from

394
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 2: upstate New York. What was it like to be on

395
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: a carrier in the middle of the Pacific when you'd

396
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 2: never done anything like that before. So I don't think

397
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 2: it changed my grand narrative of the war. I think

398
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 2: it helped me understand perhaps what it was like.

399
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 1: As a historian, I really appreciate the to take a

400
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: thread like this and follow it all the way through

401
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 1: and figure out what it means and how it happened.

402
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: Now that you've done that with the galpouns, are you

403
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 1: considering writing more about either World War Two or about

404
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 1: military history in general.

405
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 2: Submarine warfare kind of peaked my interest. There was a

406
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 2: quote by Admiral Halsey. He was, I mean, he's a

407
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,360
Speaker 2: carrier commander. He loves his carriers. And someone asked him,

408
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 2: you know, what are the top five things that led

409
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,640
Speaker 2: to victory in the Pacific and he rated the carriers

410
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: third and submarines first. So the fact that this guy

411
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: who is he loves his carriers, that he says, well,

412
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: really it was kind of the submarines that was the

413
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,479
Speaker 2: biggest factory to victory has got me pulling on that

414
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: thread now well.

415
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: And of course World War two submarines were totally different

416
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: from modern nuclear submarines. You go visit one of these

417
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: museums and get into a World War two sub you

418
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 1: realize how small they were, and again the huge difference

419
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: between for example, the British subs has served mostly in

420
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 1: the North Atlanta and American submarines, which have to be

421
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: capable of operating across the entire Pacific, which is just

422
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: a huge, huge problem. That is one of the great epics.

423
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 1: So are you going to write about one or more

424
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: submarines or how are you going to approach it?

425
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 2: I'm looking at nineteen forty four, which is when if

426
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: you take a look at the monthly sinkings total tonnage.

427
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: Essentially the submarine force did not resolve its problems until

428
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 2: late forty three in terms of his broken torpedoes and

429
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: some of his leadership and tactics problems. But by early

430
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: forty four they pretty much gotten it all together. It

431
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 2: honestly just took them till November of that year and

432
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 2: then the daily tonnage totals started plumbing and never recovered.

433
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: So forty four was the decisive year for submarine warfare.

434
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: Ironic way, our merchant marine submarine campaign was dramatically more

435
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 1: effective in isolating Japan than the much more famous German

436
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: campaign against North Atlantic merchants. I mean, the Japanese never

437
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: had the resources to actually wage and effective anti submarine war.

438
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 2: And they didn't want to. Culturally, they viewed the war

439
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 2: entirely through an offensive lens, and so they came to

440
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 2: convoy tactics and destroyer escors relate in the game.

441
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: You know, there's a funny scene in the beginning of

442
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: the Kinge Mutiny where this young ensign who's graduated from

443
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 1: college joined the Navy, and the chief petty officer who's

444
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 1: teaching a course on submarines, says that the submarine is

445
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 1: a fleet offensive weapon and is not a merchant reader.

446
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: And the young guy goes, sir, here's the front page

447
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: in the New York Times this morning telling us how

448
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: the Germans are using it against merchant marine, and the

449
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: chief petty officer says, son, in this navy, the submarine

450
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: is a fleet offensive weapon and not to be used

451
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: against merchant ships. Do you understand me. Herman Woke, who

452
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: wrote the book, told me one day that he was

453
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: the guy he's writing about. He was in the room,

454
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: he was the young student. He did raise the issue,

455
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: and of course, as long as it was the Germans

456
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: sinking Allied merchant ships, we were really against it. The

457
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,959
Speaker 1: minute we did an analysis in the Pacific, we decided, okay,

458
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: we can really learn how to do this. It's an

459
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: amazing story. I look forward to your next book. It's

460
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:24,479
Speaker 1: a great topic.

461
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. Sir, I appreciate it.

462
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: Nathan. I want to thank you for joining me. This

463
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: has been a great venture into an area I didn't

464
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: know all that well. Your new book, The Mighty Move

465
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: the USS Cowpens and her epic World War II journey

466
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: from Jink's ship to the Navy's first carrier into Tokyo Bay,

467
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: is available on Amazon and bookstores everywhere. It's well researched.

468
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: It's just a fascinating story, and I look forward very

469
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: much to a chance in the future to have you

470
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: come back into a future podcast on your book on submarines.

471
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 2: It's a date. Thank you, sir. I do appreciate your time.

472
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Nathan Canastero. You can get

473
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Mighty Move

474
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: the USS Cowpens on her epic World World two journey

475
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: from Jinkship to the Navy's first carrier into Tokyo Bay

476
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is

477
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: produced by Gingrash three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer

478
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork

479
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: for the show was created by Steve Penley Special thanks

480
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: to the team at Gingrad three sixty. If you've been

481
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and

482
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a

483
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now,

484
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: listeners of newt World can sign up for my three

485
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: free weekly columns at gingleshtree sixty dot com slash newsletter.

486
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: I'm new Gingrich. This is new World. H