1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Start building 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: your website today at squarespace dot com. Enter offer code 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: History at check out to get ten percent off Squarespace 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Build it Beautiful. Welcome to Stuff you missed in History 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: Class from hot works dot com. Hello, and welcome to 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: We have an interview today and I'll tell you how 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: this came about because it was one of those things 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: that was serendipitous and delightful and philly with squealing happiness. 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: So back in the fall of last year, there was 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: a book that arrived at my desk. And this is 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: nothing new because we are often sent books by publishers 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: for review as possible interview subjects. But this book was 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: a little bit different one. It is huge. It was 15 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: like a massive box that came and to Once I 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: opened this parcel, which was quite heavy, I saw the 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: book within and then it was this incredible book of 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: historical fashion plates. It's titled fashion Plates one and fifty 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: Years of Style, and the writer, April Callaghan, is a 20 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: fashion historian and a special Collections Associate at the Fashion 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Institute of Technology. So she really knows her stuff. And 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: so I opened this book and I started to page 23 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: through it, and I just fell in love with it. 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: I found it utterly enchanting because not only is it 25 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: pictures of historical clothing, which everyone knows I love, but 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: this is so gorgeous. And we talked about it a 27 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: little bit in the interview coming up, but like the 28 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: printing on it is absolutely exquisite. It is like just 29 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: a fine art book. It's really really gorgeous, uh. And 30 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: it is so pretty that the other house stove work 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: staffers started kind of wandering over to my desk to 32 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: see what I was gasping over, and then they started gasping, 33 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: and Julie Douglass and I stood there for a long 34 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: time paging through this thing and just being amazed at 35 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: how absolutely gorgeous it is and how much really cool 36 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: information is contained in it. And so of course, I 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: as soon as I was able to tear myself away 38 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: from it, I shot off an email to ask if 39 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: April would join us on the show, and then when 40 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: she responded, she surprised me a little by mentioning that 41 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: she had also just published another book, which is titled 42 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: Fashion in the Art of Pochoi the Golden Age of 43 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: Illustration in Paris. Uh So I was like, great, we'll 44 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: talk about both of those books. So for those of 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: you who are into historical fashion or even simply art, 46 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: you are going to be delighted to hear her insights 47 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: on both clothing and culture as well as art throughout history. 48 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: And she's incredibly well spoken and she shares some really 49 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: great insights. First up, this talk covers just exactly how 50 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: somebody becomes a fashion historian, which a lot of listeners 51 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: have expressed to us as their greame job, and how 52 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: having a job at the Fashion Institute of Technology leads 53 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: to some really exciting moment. Now that I am lucky 54 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: enough to have April cow Him on the line for 55 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: an interview, we're going to get right to talking about 56 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: some of the amazing work she has been doing. And 57 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: right out of the gate, I will tell you that 58 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: one of the things I love in your Fashion Plates book, 59 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: the dedication says this book is dedicated to those people 60 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: who know what they love to do, but haven't quite 61 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: found their way. Be fearless. It seems like you have 62 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: clearly found what you love to do. So before we 63 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: start talking about the books and historical fashion. Can you 64 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: just tell us kind of what drew you to historical 65 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: fashion in the first place, and how you managed to 66 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: make this into a career. Sure, yes, I'm first of all, 67 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you so much for 68 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,839 Speaker 1: having me. I'm I'm really delighted to be on the show. 69 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm actually a fan, so it's a great compliment. UM. Yeah, 70 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: So kind of how I ended up where I am 71 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: here is UM. From a very very young age, I 72 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: always was really drawn to an interest in the kind 73 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: of hidden story behind objects. UM. Who created them, Why, 74 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,119 Speaker 1: who who owned them? How, what does those objects mean 75 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: to their owners? And how does that kind of speak 76 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: to a creation of not only like an individual but 77 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: also a cultural identity UM. And my interest in that 78 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: kind of led me to study art history UM, and 79 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: I did an undergraduate degree in art history, and then 80 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: after I graduated, I ended up working in contemporary art 81 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: foundations and galleries as an assistant director for almost ten years. 82 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: But at some point along the way there, I started 83 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: to get a little bit of an itch to explore 84 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: some other interests, but I wasn't certain what those interests 85 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: were yet, And one day I just happened to stumble 86 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: across a book that kind of changed the course of 87 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: my life professionally from that point forward. And it was 88 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: the catalog to the Kyoto Costume Institute. UM So it's 89 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: a costume collection in Kyoto, Japan, and the book is 90 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: published by Passion. It's pretty widely available. But I have 91 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: to laugh because I have and adore that book. It's 92 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: really great. So I understand how it was life changing, 93 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: because it's really amazing. I mean, I devoured their presentation 94 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: of the history of fashion from the eighteenth to the 95 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: twentieth century and in like a twenty four hour period 96 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: um And from that point forward, I kind of knew 97 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: what I wanted to do with the rest of my life, 98 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: and I applied to graduate program here in New York 99 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: UM in Fashion and Textile Territorial Studies. So really, until 100 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: I encountered that book, I I didn't realize that one 101 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: could actually study fashion, that the field of fashion studies existed, 102 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: and that one you could really use an object based 103 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: approach to analyze the motives and really even the technologies 104 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: of a society that that created the object. That's so cool, 105 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: And like I said, I love that book. So I 106 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: really do completely understand how it is fantastic. I've given 107 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: that book as a gift to so many people. Well, 108 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: and I actually received it as a gift, so it's 109 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: perfect to me. That is like a perfect gift book. 110 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: And now you work in special collections at the Fashionist Technology. Uh, 111 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: so do you ever stumble across any fabulous fashion surprises 112 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: And how specifically did you end up there? Um? Well, actually, 113 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: how I ended up here was I did go to 114 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: graduate school here at f I T. UM. I went 115 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: back for a little while to working um in art 116 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: here in New York, and as I started working on 117 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: these books, UM, I was delving into this collection specifically 118 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: a lot, and so I was hanging around a lot 119 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: and eventually they asked me if I want to come 120 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: on board. So um, But in terms of of finding 121 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: really fun things within the collection, yes, this happens frequently. Um. 122 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: It's our collection here f I T is really quite robust. 123 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: We have about thirty five hundred linear feet of rare 124 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: books and periodicals specifically on the topics of fashion and design. 125 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: And we also have more than three hundred and fifty 126 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: manuscript collections. And when I say manuscript collections, I mean 127 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: unpublished materials. So in the context of the types of 128 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: things that we collect, that really means designer archives, and 129 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: within our paper designer archives, we estimate we have about 130 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: half of a million original works on paper, most of 131 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: which are design our sketches. So one of my most 132 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: serendipitous surprises that I've had recently kind of pertains to 133 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: these sketch collections and um a few months ago, I 134 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: had posted on our Instagram feed of photographs, is this 135 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: really beautiful evening dress by the couturier Lucile, And I 136 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: had found the photograph in the nineteen seventeen issue of 137 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: the French fashion magazine lay Mode, which is one of 138 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: the rare periodicals that we have here. But the following week, 139 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: I just happened to be leading a class visit with 140 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: graduate students and I had randomly gone back in the 141 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: collections room and pulled a box of sketches from the many, 142 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: many boxes of with skills sketches that we have. I 143 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: opened the box in front of the graduate students. The 144 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: first sketch I turned to just happened to be the 145 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: original sketch for the dress that I had posted on 146 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: Instagram the week before. Oh my goodness, what are the 147 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: chances of that happening? And that's really kind of something 148 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: that speaks to the vast and the scope um of 149 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: of what we have here. Oh, that's spectacular. I would 150 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: imagine that's one of those things where sometimes you have 151 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: to make yourself leave at the end of the day. Yeah, 152 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: because it's every single day when I come to work. 153 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: I love it. It's like a treasure hunt all the time. 154 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: That always pays off, it seems. Um. So you have 155 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: two books out right now that are are fresh releases, 156 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: both about fashion history and specifically fashion illustration. So since 157 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: they came out like one right after the other, I mean, 158 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: it's only a couple of weeks that separated their publication dates. Um, 159 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: did you work on those concurrently or did you have 160 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: this kind of silo it and do one and then 161 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 1: the other. I actually did not work on them con currently. Um. 162 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: I pretty much wrote them back to back. But it 163 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: just happened to be an odd twist of fate that 164 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: they ended up coming out at the same time. I 165 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,599 Speaker 1: wish I was that much of a powerhouse of a 166 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: writer to be able to do to work on two 167 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: books at the same time, But I am not so 168 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: when you're working on a book like this, which here's 169 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: where it really gets to be a little powerhouse ee 170 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: in my head. Writing of course takes a lot of work, 171 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: but to me, sifting through source material and the rich 172 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: source material you had for each of these um is 173 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: a huge task. And so when you're compiling books like this, 174 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 1: when you're curating collections, uh, what is that process? Like? 175 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: Like how do you start? Where do you do you 176 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: have a vision when you begin, and does it stay 177 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: the same or how much does it evolve as you go? 178 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: And like how long does it really take you to 179 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: kind of create a cohesive assortment and cull the ones 180 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: that don't quite fit and go through that whole process. 181 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Um. Well, since I really am like quite 182 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: literally physically immersed in the mid aerials every day when 183 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: I come to work. Um, for me, it's just kind 184 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: of more about living with the materials at hand for 185 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: a while and then starting to see where there is 186 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: an abundance of subject matter that coincides with a gap 187 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: in whatever the current publishing or scholarships that's happening is. 188 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: And then once you make that connection, it's really about 189 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: just diving into the original primary source materials from the period, 190 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: and then letting the materials tell you their story. Um. 191 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: Everyone has their own way of working, of course, but 192 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: personally I photograph obsessively. And one would think that this 193 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: is kind of a simple proposition, But when you are 194 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: working with a large amount of historic materials within a 195 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: really massive collection, just having a simple image on your 196 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: screen or on your page really isn't enough information for 197 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: you work from. UM. You have to record all of 198 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: its metadata. And what I mean by that is you 199 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: know what public key shition is it from what was 200 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: the date, who is the artist, who is a photographer? Um? 201 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: And on a lot of this is in order to 202 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: be an effective researcher later when you go back to 203 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: evaluate your pool of images that you start with. First 204 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: of all, you need to know where to be returned 205 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: to in order to relocate that image again after you've 206 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: been doing research. UM. And this is really super important 207 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: when you have a pool of say six thousand images 208 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: that you start with, which is essentially what I began 209 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: with when I started image selection for the Fashion Plates book. 210 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: So we called that down from six thousand to two hundreds. 211 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: That seems like it would be terribly painful. Our moments. 212 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie where it is very pretty heartbreaking 213 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: when you have to cut something that you love. Well, 214 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: then that's my next question. Are you good about killing 215 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: your darlings and cutting those things that you just are 216 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: in love with but they maybe aren't the right fit 217 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: and kind of admitting that to yourself or is it 218 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: like a did you ever find yourself in the back 219 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: of your head knowing the right decision was, but still 220 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: holding onto something that maybe you just were really attached to, 221 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: you know, I think I'd become better about it UM, 222 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: And I think when I went into the second book UM, 223 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: I had a better clearly defined set of parameters that 224 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: we agreed upon before we started working with our image 225 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: pool UM, and those parameters first being that specific images 226 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: ability to advance forward the story that we're trying to 227 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: weave together by putting the images together, and then once 228 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: we kind of have an idea of what we want 229 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: and and also how those things, you know, work visually together. 230 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: Copyright we have to copy right. So with the type 231 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: of books that I do UM, which are considered illustrated books, 232 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: this can really be a defining factor in which images 233 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: ultimately appear. So, for instance, uh for Fashion in the 234 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: Art of Pushbar, which I wrote with my fantastic co 235 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: author Cassidy Zachary Um one of our very, very favorite 236 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: illustrators of this entire time period. His name um was 237 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: Andre Edouard Martie and his work has not transitioned into 238 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: the public domain. And because um, the more of his 239 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: work that we wanted to use, we were going to 240 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: have to pay um youth these for due to budget constraints, 241 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: we could not include as many of his illustrations in 242 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: the book, says if we would have liked was that 243 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: ever freeing to be like the universe is deciding this 244 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: for me, I don't have to make this cut, and 245 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: it's freeing as much as it was painful at other times. Yes, Oh, 246 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine it. I cannot imagine having to 247 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: call a collection of gorgeous fashion plates down without going 248 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: slightly mad or becoming really melancholy in the process. So 249 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: it was good to hear from someone that has done 250 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: that how she sort of handled it. I know, I 251 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: get way to attached to things that I think are 252 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: beautiful to ever really be able to do that with 253 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: any sort of grace. We are going to hear more 254 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: from April about her book on posh wire, and she's 255 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: going to describe exactly what that is in just a moment. 256 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: But first we will have a word from one of 257 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: the fabulous sponsors that keep stuff you missed in history 258 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: class on the air. Alrighty, as promised, Tracy, do you 259 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: want to know what posch I do? In fact, all right, 260 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: let's do it. So you brought up your book about poshoir, 261 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: so I wanted to ask you if you would explain 262 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: for our listeners what posch war actually is. Certainly, of 263 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: course they'd be happy to um. So pushwar literally is 264 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: the French word for stenfil Um and senfiling as an 265 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: image making technique has has existed for thousands of years, 266 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: and we see employed in prehistoric cave painting. Many millennia 267 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: later in the Middle Ages, UM oftentimes people who did 268 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: not know how to read or write would use a 269 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: stencil as a means of signing legal documents. UM in 270 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: the sixteenth cent was often used to create playing cards. 271 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: But um really as a widespread technique we really start 272 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: to see emerge in the nineteenth century, where it was 273 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: used by Japanese artisans for creating um and decorating housewears, 274 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: fans and chimono, so they were using it in textile 275 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: design UM, and so they really cultivated the Japanese this 276 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: technique over over several hundred years, and as a lot 277 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: of imported goods from Japan became quite fashionable in Europe 278 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: during the latter portion of the nineteenth century. UM it's 279 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: around this time that European printers also kind of start 280 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: to experiment with the technique and they really refined it 281 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: even further for the purposes of not printing on textiles 282 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: but book publishing. UM and the technique of pushbar really 283 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: sort of reached just apotheosis under the guidance and refinement 284 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: of a gentleman whose name was Jean Sauda. UM. To 285 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: this day, Sauda is really kind of considered the authority 286 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: on the pushwar technique. And it's the reason for this 287 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: is because how he thought about color UM was really 288 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: quite advanced. So how the pushwar process UM worked was 289 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: an artist or an illustrator would submit to Sade and 290 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: his his Pushwar studio an original work on paper, and 291 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: this was the original work that ultimately they wanted to 292 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: reproduce in a book or an album. Or UM. You know, 293 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: let's say a periodical and the image would be really, really, 294 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: reallyly rigorously scrutinized for its color separations. Then a decap 295 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: or a cutter would create stencils, at least one stencil 296 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: for each color appearing within an image, and oftentimes, because 297 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: of the complexity of an image, there may be more 298 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: than one stencil cut for the color red. UM copper 299 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: and zinc were pretty much the favorite materials used to 300 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: create the physical sensil itself, and then once these were realized, 301 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: they would be handed off to a color east or 302 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: colorist UM who would painstakingly and really really rigorously giving 303 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: care to the registration of the sensils. They would apply 304 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: water based pigments or guash directly to the page to 305 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: create the image. UM colorists had quite a variety of 306 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: brushes and techniques that were available UM for their disposal 307 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: in order to recreate as faithfully as possible the artist 308 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: original works, and this was really one of the aspects 309 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: of pushbar that was treasured. These images are essentially semi 310 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: unique works of art on paper. This was really labor 311 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: intensive UM and in turn that made it very expensive 312 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: to produce and so at this level of kind of 313 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: really refined level of pushbar. It was really only used 314 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: for limited addition publications, and there was a certain cashe 315 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: at the time surrounding its exclusivity. Luxury fashion publications especially 316 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: embraced the technique really kind of as a foil to 317 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: the easily reproduced nature of fashion photography. So it was 318 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: kind of a reaction um to the rise of fashion photography. 319 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: People were returning back to the handmade and it creates 320 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: such stunning effects. That's sort of it's really beautiful, like 321 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: the way things are layered together, and as you said, 322 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: it's a complete art in and of itself. And what 323 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: I think is interesting about illustration in general is that 324 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: in some cases, particularly in fashion, these illustrations of historical 325 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: fashions have really sort of become even more iconic than 326 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: the clothing. And what jumped to mind for me was 327 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: Paul pour A who we've talked about on the podcast, 328 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: and Paul rieb uh. So for people who aren't especially 329 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: into fashion and and history, they will sometimes recognize the 330 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: sketches with some level of familiarity, but if you showed 331 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: them a photograph of the garment, they're like, I don't 332 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: know what that is UM, but so that in some 333 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: ways the imagery and the sketch work has sort of 334 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: superseded the clothing that it was meant to represent. Do 335 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: you think any of those illustrators, particularly in the early 336 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, ever really conceived the possibility that their work 337 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: would be the more enduring part of the equation rather 338 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: than the clothing. They did, at least some of them did, 339 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: And I'm saying yes, because depending on what publication that 340 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: that particular artists or illustrator was working for, their work 341 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: may have never actually existed in physical form in terms 342 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: of it being a garment. UM. Some of the garments 343 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: we see in some of these illustrations were always intentionally 344 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: purely the invention of the illustrator, and they were actually 345 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: kind of meant to inspire the direction of fashion. So 346 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: they weren't necessarily reflecting what current fashion was, but they 347 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: were meant to inspire the future direction of fashion. UM. 348 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: That being said, UM, certain publications were also underwritten by 349 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: some of the could tour houses UM. And if there 350 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: was a tour house underwriting that publication, the publication usually 351 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: featured illustrations of their designs their underwriters almost exclusively UM 352 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: and this is the case, and give a du Bonton 353 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: and give that du Bonton would UM pair specific illustrators 354 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: with specific designers, and they would have an ongoing relationship 355 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: for for years at a time sometimes UM. But some 356 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: examples of the garments that we see, and some of 357 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: these illustrations still do exist in museum collections UM. Specifically 358 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: some of the quare addresses that are illustrated by a 359 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: rebe UM, those are still there's extant examples of them 360 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: in French museum collections. And here at f I T 361 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: we actually have one of the coats that are read 362 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: illustrates for Lebrobe de papa UM. We have it in 363 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: a different color way UM, and it reads illustration. It's yellow, 364 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: but the museum's collection UM example is in black. So 365 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of yes and a little bit 366 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: of no the answer the question yes. Sometimes sometimes they 367 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: knew that that their designs were only ever going to 368 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: exist on the page, and and sometimes they were also 369 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: illustrating UM specific German. Well, and it's interesting too to 370 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: think about, you know, clothing that gets worn, even if 371 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: it's only for a short time, it's sort of suffers 372 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: its own use in some degree. Where you know, textiles 373 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: tend to break down. Paper has always sort of survived 374 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more, not always, but overall, I would 375 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: say there, you know, we have more examples of art 376 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: from various periods than we have the actual clothing that's intact, 377 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: So it would make sense from that point of view. 378 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: It just fascinates me that, particularly with Paul Parret. I mean, 379 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: I remember when we were researching that episode. I would 380 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: show people pictures of the dresses and the like, what 381 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: is this weird dress? I don't I've never seen this, 382 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: And I would show them an illustration of like the 383 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: same or a very similar dress, and like, I've seen 384 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: that art. I'm like, I know, how did that separation exist? Um? 385 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: And one thing that's interesting, and you mentioned at the 386 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: time that most of this art was sort of aspirational 387 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: and sort of to drive the direction of the future 388 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: of fashion. That you know, now a separate artist doing 389 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: fashion illustration for someone is much more unheard of. So 390 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: as it's evolved away from that idea of partnerships between 391 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: illustrators and clothing designers, Uh, why do you think it 392 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: actually started to do that? Where now designers pretty much 393 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: also have to be artists. For the most part. M H. 394 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: And you know, here's the thing. It's a curious thing. 395 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and I 396 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: don't know that that partnership has necessarily dissolved as much 397 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: as we think that it has. UM. Historically, not all 398 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: fashion designers have sketch before they created their collection. UM. 399 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: This was not necessarily part of many of the great 400 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: fashion designers at the past. UM. Some designers even specifically 401 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: employed sketch artists as part of their team to document 402 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: their collections after the fact UM, rather than photographed them 403 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: because at certain periods of time to photograph them would 404 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: have been more expensive than to have a sketch artist 405 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: on staff. UM. For instance, Uh, lucile lady Jeff Gordon, 406 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: who I mentioned earlier, UM, she actually had dedicated sketch 407 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: artists as part of her team, and one of them 408 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,239 Speaker 1: happened to be Edward Molly and you who, UM, if 409 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: you know a lot about the history of fashion, he 410 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: actually went on to become a very very famous fashion 411 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: designer in his own right after kind of beginning his 412 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: career working for Lucile. UM. But still to this day, 413 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: I'm still bringing in fashion illustrations into our collection that 414 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: are not necessarily executed by the head designers themselves, but 415 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: other parties that are hired in UM to illustrate the 416 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: production of a specific, specific house UM. I think that 417 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: there's kind of beginning to be sort of a resurgence 418 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: of interest in fashion illustration UM as a reaction to 419 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: all the photographs bick images that were really bombarded with 420 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: every single day. And it's an interesting time period because 421 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 1: this really is kind of paralleling the interest in Pushbart 422 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: illustrations that was a counterpoint to the mass conversion to 423 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: a photography that we saw happen a century ago. I'm 424 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: starting to see this happen again, which is fascinating because 425 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: we're right out about a hundred years since this was 426 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: taking place then, so it's very very fascinating. I love 427 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: hearing the idea that fashion illustration existing separate from fashion 428 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: design is something that's having a resurgence. It was also 429 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: really interesting to hear about how illustrators of the early 430 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: Dreds viewed their work in relation to the clothing to 431 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: designers they were collaborating with. Yeah, I was surprised by that. 432 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: So next up the conversation is going to turn to 433 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more general talk about fashion in the 434 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: context of cultural history. But first we're going to have 435 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: a word from one of our fabulous sponsors. Okay, next April, 436 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: we'll talk about fashion in a cultural context, and then 437 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: they will wrap up she and Holly with some advice 438 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: about how other people interested in fashion history might start 439 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: out if they are wanting to learn more. You mentioned 440 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: earlier in our discussion that you really love the idea 441 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: of objects and gleaning from them sort of their their 442 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: meaning in their context historically. So I'm curious what you 443 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: think fashion can really teach us about the culture and 444 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: time that it comes from because we approach it, how 445 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: shall we be looking at it to really interpret the 446 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: period that it existed in in a contemporary way? Sure? So, 447 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I first realized 448 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: when I really started studying fashion, and some of this 449 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: is a little bit school the obvious, but but how 450 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: inextricably tied fashion is to not only capitalism um but 451 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: also the passage of time um. In in the in 452 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: the Fashion Place book, I I use this little analogy 453 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: that admittedly is perhaps um on the verge of waxing 454 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: a little bit poetic, but I like this analogy UM. 455 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: I wrote something to the fact that UM. Fashion is 456 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: not only the devoted mistress of capitalism, constantly cannibalizing itself 457 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: and and and because of that, calling for a rapid 458 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: infusion of the new UM, but fashion is also concurrently 459 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: the sical wife of father time. You know, fashion is 460 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: always betraying his every movement with her incessant remake over 461 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: of the physical world. So I guess what I'm trying 462 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: to get at is that fashion, whether it be fashion 463 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: and close in colors, home goods, trends in food, or 464 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: even like the apps that are on your phone, all 465 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: of these things have a very specific place in this 466 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: broader fashion system, and our consumption of these things is 467 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: really directly connected to our personal politics visa VI. How 468 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: we decide to to vote for the creation of goods 469 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: UM that come into being via our exchange of monetary 470 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: currency for those things, right, We're voting with our dollar 471 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: when we buy things UM. So another another thing I 472 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: think that we can learn from about just looking at 473 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: fashion is you can always end up learning something about 474 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,479 Speaker 1: the technology of the period UM because ultimately, how things 475 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: look UM is one of the factors that goes into 476 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 1: how things look is always going to be the technology 477 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: that was behind its creation. Um. For instance, the invention 478 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: of synthetic dies in in really changed the color palette 479 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth late nineteenth century, And to me, this 480 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: is kind of a can to what I think may 481 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: happen very shortly here in terms of how three D 482 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: printing may very well revolutionize how we produce fashion in 483 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: the coming year. So cool. Um. I'm literally still paging 484 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: through your book while we talk, and I just keep 485 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: finding myself sighing and gasping, which makes me wonder because I, 486 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: of course I keep flipping to the late Victoria, late 487 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: bustle part of the Victorian era. What is your favorite 488 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: historical period in fashion? You were exposed to all of 489 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: it all the time, so surely you must have a favorite. 490 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: I do, But you know what that favorite is? It 491 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: shifts over time, and I kind of find I find 492 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: that question often depends on what I'm working on at 493 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: the moment. If I had to answer that question right now, 494 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: I would definitely say that the nineteen teens are at 495 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: the top of my list. But I also realized that 496 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: probably has a lot to do with the fact that 497 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: I've been working in that time period recently. But one 498 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: of the things that I love about the teens is 499 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: that it's really truly a pivotal point both in the 500 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,479 Speaker 1: history of fashion itself and also fashion illustration. Um. This 501 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: is a time period when we start to see the 502 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: course it disappear, and of course, of course it had 503 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: dominated women's fashion and in some degrees men's fashion too, 504 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: and certain small segments um for four years UM. And 505 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: it's also a really pivotal point and how fashion illustration 506 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: changes with that collaboration that you referenced earlier between Pare 507 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: and a Reb. But UM. One of the other my 508 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: other interests in the teens is the fact that I 509 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: as a fashion historian, one of my specific um interests 510 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: is in the intersection of war and fashion, So the 511 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: French Revolution, World War One, world War two, UM, and 512 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: I feel very drawn to these questions around those time periods. 513 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: Is like, how is it that a specific society navigates 514 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: the exigencies of war um with the same time having 515 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: the very real need to put clothes on human bodies, 516 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: but also the economic imperatives of the fashion industry in 517 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: terms of keeping people employed and feeding their families during 518 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: these very difficult periods. And I think that the argument 519 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: that fashion is frivolists during periods of war begins to 520 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: melt away just a little bit, just a little bit 521 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: that when you realize that, for instance, during World War One, 522 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: approximately thirty of France's labor force was tethered in one 523 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: way or another to the fashion industry. UM. At that time, 524 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: France was the global arbiter of style. So it wasn't 525 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: only the jobs of let's say, couldture house workers that 526 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: were at stakes during World War One, but it was 527 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: also the entire textile industry, including die manufacturers and all 528 00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: of these little offshoot industries such as lace makers and broiderers, 529 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: people who worked in the feather industries, first millinery, the list, 530 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: the list goes on. So when you think about these 531 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: intersections of war war in fashion, is it's not only 532 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: an aesthetic um choice that's happening, that there's an economic 533 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: imperative behind it. I love it. I have to wonder, 534 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: do you ever do any historical costuming? I don't, don't, 535 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm terrible and terrible fashion. His story and 536 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: what no that that doesn't seem terrible at all to me. 537 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: I'm always a little bit just because of my own 538 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: like life context. When someone says, particularly someone who is 539 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: in interested in in fashion or whatever, says they don't, 540 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: So it seems so bizarre to me, Um, even though 541 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: it's not. But it's just because I've always been a 542 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: stitcher of my whole life, Like I started when I 543 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: was very very tiny. So like, of course you show 544 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: everybody said nobody sows okay, Um, but that's just my 545 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: own context that makes that seem weird. But no, I 546 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: I certainly know lots of people that are into fashion 547 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: and don't so, but part of it for me is 548 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: the drive, like I want that, so I have to 549 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: figure out how to make it. So there are plenty 550 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: of times when I look at a fashion plate and 551 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: was like, if I knew how to sell, I would 552 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: be wearing that to work tomorrow. What's really really fascinating 553 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: to me, Um, going back and occasionally looking at historical patterns. 554 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: I don't know how much pattern gazing you do. Um, 555 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: it's so fascinating because particularly and again I'll admit Victorian 556 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: is my favorite zone, but you'll look at these garments 557 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: and particularly in fashion plates, and be like, how on 558 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: earth did they ever do that? And then I'm always 559 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: sort of amazed at the beautiful simplicity of engineering that 560 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: usually goes into them. It's like, oh, this is not 561 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: a hard thing to cut out at all. It has 562 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: weird scenes that aren't like in the places we would 563 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: do modern garments, but it's usually so smart and so 564 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: much more simple than one would anticipate. Yet it creates 565 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: these incredible, beautiful drapes and shapes, and I'm always very 566 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: wow by this, the brilliance of the architecture a lot 567 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: of times of historical garments. Absolutely. Uh So, I know 568 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: we have a lot of listeners that are into fashion 569 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: and maybe don't uh know quite where to get started 570 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: looking into it. What would you recommend as a good 571 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: starting point for someone who wants to start looking into 572 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: fashion history, either for themselves or even as a potential 573 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: education and career path. Sure. Well, Um, there's not only 574 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: been an explosion of publishing on fashion studies, not only 575 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: fashion history but also fashion theory in the last decade, 576 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: and um, hand in hand with that, an explosion of 577 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: programs where you can actually go study fashion from a 578 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: scholarly perspective. Um. Here in New York at least, um, 579 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: there's a program at n Y U, there's a program 580 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: at Parsons. We have a graduate program here at f 581 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: I T. Those are just three in New York. UM. 582 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: There's many programs abroad in Europe, in London. UM. But 583 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: in terms of books, books of course would be the 584 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: easiest way to kind of get your feet wet. And 585 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier the book that I kind of led 586 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: me to being a fashion astorian. And you have a 587 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: copy of yourself, um, which is the Kyoto Costume Institute Catalog. 588 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: I think technically the name of it is something like 589 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: Fashion History from the eighteenth to twentieth century, something like that. Um. Yeah, 590 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: And I know I have the the paperback version, which 591 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: is two volumes, like it was two volumes in a 592 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: box sets. And I think that got a rename possibly, 593 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: so we'll look it up and put it in the 594 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: show notes. Okay, yeah. UM. There's another great book that's 595 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: a fantastic overview of fashion history that just came out 596 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: I think in October. It's called The History of Modern 597 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: Fashion and Spy Daniel Cole and Nancy Deal, and it 598 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: covers fashion from the birth of oat couture in the 599 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, UM, all the way into the twenty one century, 600 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: so it's a pretty wide spanning book. Um, those those 601 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: would be two of my top picks for just like 602 00:34:54,640 --> 00:35:00,479 Speaker 1: a very uh smart but easy overview of a lot 603 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: of time. Uh. Well in the Kyoto when I know 604 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: for sure like it's an easy entry because you'll first 605 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: just sit there slack jot at all the gorgeous photography 606 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: for a while and they now start reading the notes. 607 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: That book actually was a part the structure of it 608 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: was a little bit of my inspiration for how I 609 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: set up the Fashion Place book. Um, you have it 610 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: there in front of you, so you already know this. 611 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: But I didn't write text heavy chapters. Um. I really 612 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: wanted a lot of people, um, coming from lots of 613 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: different backgrounds or with a lot of different interests to 614 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: be able to access the book on whatever level that 615 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,479 Speaker 1: they wanted. So I didn't want to do these text 616 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: heavy chapters. Instead, I kind of did vignettes and so 617 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: an image. Um, the fashion plate itself will be on 618 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: one page, and facing that will be a lot of 619 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: like contextualizing texts. Um. That may be about the history 620 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: of fashion that's portrayed in the fashion plate, it may 621 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: be about the social political um climate of that particular era. 622 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: It maybe at about art history, our technology of the 623 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: period that's kind of evidencing its hand within the fashion 624 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: plate um. But these things are really of upmot it's 625 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: importance to me um when when trying to understand what 626 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: fashion is true relevance is within any given era, It's 627 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: much broader than just the clothes themselves. It's all these 628 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: other things surrounding it that go into its creation. And 629 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: I would actually add your Fashion Plates book particularly to 630 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: a good starter point, because, as you said, it's so um. 631 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: It's laid out in such a way that it's kind 632 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: of easy to digest it in whatever manner you desire. 633 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: But it's kind of one of those things where even 634 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: if you start looking at the pictures when it first 635 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: came one of my colleagues, Julie Douglas, who works on 636 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: other podcasts of projects here at House to works, she 637 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: is into fashion, but it's not really into fashion history 638 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: so much. She just hasn't been exposed to it. We're 639 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: sitting there paging through it and gasping at the loveliness, 640 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: and then she would we would be gazing at a 641 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: picture and then she would finally I would see her 642 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: kind of drifting over to the text side and being like, oh, 643 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: now I understand, and so it's sort of a It 644 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: really is a beautiful kind of a way to introduce 645 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: people to some of the context socially, particularly that otherwise 646 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: you may miss just looking at the gorgeous pictures. So 647 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you so much for saying that, because 648 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: that was exactly my intent her success. Oh, April, thank 649 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. I cannot tell 650 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: you how much I appreciate your time and also just 651 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: getting to chat with you about fashion history. Thank you 652 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: so much for having me. It was a pleasure, and 653 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed a book more. Oh, I'm sure 654 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: I will. I. I am going to take it home 655 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: from the office now that we're done with this, and 656 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: then I can truly devour it in my own time. 657 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: And I again, I super love it and really would 658 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: recommend it to anybody who is into fashion. The holidays 659 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: are over, but it would make a spectacular gift for anybody. 660 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 1: If you're late or if there's a birthday coming, do that, uh, 661 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: And otherwise, thank you so much for being here. Where 662 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: can people find you online? Um? I do have a 663 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: blog that I wrote right as part of um my 664 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: job here at f I T, which is called material 665 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: Mode UM. And you can just search Google search blog 666 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: material Mode f I T and I'm sure it'll come up. UM. 667 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: And then you can also follow us on Instagram. We 668 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,760 Speaker 1: have a fantastic Instagram feed which we post really cool 669 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: things in the collection every day, five days a week. UM. 670 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: And you can follow us at f I T Special 671 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: Collections on Instagram. And I am now following you. UM. Excellent. Well, 672 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: thank you so so much and we uh hopefully we'll 673 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: talk to you next time you have a book out. Thanks. 674 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: I would love to most excellent. So that was the 675 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: amazing April Callahan. Her books once again, if you want 676 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: to check them out, and if you're into fashion history 677 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: at all, you do want to check them out. Our 678 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: fashion plates one fifty Years of Style and the other 679 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: one is Fashion in the Art of Pochoire, the Golden 680 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 1: Age of illustration in Paris. And I am not joking 681 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: at all when I talked about how gorgeous these books are. 682 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: Like I may sound like I'm overblowing it, I'm not. 683 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,760 Speaker 1: They're absolutely spectacular and I am so delighted that April 684 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: shared some of her fashion history knowledge with us, Holly 685 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: be you also have some listener mail I do. And 686 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: since we have just wrapped up the holidays and we recorded, 687 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: we kind of frontloaded a lot of episodes going into 688 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: the holidays so that you could take some time off, 689 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: and I took some time off of recording, but I 690 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: was working on scripts and stuff. So, uh, we had 691 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: a lot of like really great holiday mail coming to 692 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: the office, but we didn't get to shout out out 693 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: during the holidays, so I wanted to do a few 694 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: of those now. Uh. One of these we mentioned them 695 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: last year, this wonderful couple Zach and Paloma, who are delights. 696 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: I just I adore these people. They do these really fun, 697 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,800 Speaker 1: cute he photoshops for their cards, and this year, Uh, 698 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: they have several pictures of them and their cats, but 699 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: they have switched the heads on their cats to be 700 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: them and vice versa. So it's very funny because they 701 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: did a very good job of it. And then there's 702 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: one on the back where they have just switched each 703 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: other's heads and it's so cute. Uh. And I love 704 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,399 Speaker 1: that they include us in their card list because this 705 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: is one that I just smiled like crazy when it 706 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: came in and then I shared it around the office 707 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: Caroline from Stuff Mom Never Told You and I giggled 708 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: over this for probably a good ten minutes. Another one 709 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: that I wanted to shout out to was um our 710 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 1: listener for Goal from Ireland, who I shared the image 711 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: of his wonderful gift that he sent us on social 712 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: But in case anybody wasn't looking at that, Fergo sent 713 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: us these beautiful mugs from Ireland and it was so nice. Uh. 714 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: He lives in the Hill of Terra and County Meath, 715 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: which is seat of the former High Kings of Ireland 716 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: and home to McGuire's cafe and gift shop, and they really, 717 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: in his opinion, deserve a call out if possible. Uh. 718 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: So he got us these fabulous mugs to kind of 719 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: make mention of them. So we appreciate it. I love it. 720 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: I'm using mine frequently here at the office. I really 721 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Fertile, that was so kind to send that 722 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: all the way across the pond for us. Uh. We 723 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: also got a wonderful uh card and I won't read 724 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,720 Speaker 1: the whole thing, and I can't give you the person's 725 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: name because they only signed it with their initials and 726 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: they didn't put a return address, but it's a beautiful 727 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: card featuring two puffins with some lovely Christmas lights. And 728 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: this listener talks about how they have historically had a 729 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: little bit of a problem listening to people speak extemporaneously, 730 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: but how like they're kind of working through it, and 731 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: our podcast has been part of that. So I really 732 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: appreciate it. I know there could be moments where you 733 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: cringe listening to people talk. I do sometimes that's fine, 734 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: So I super appreciate it. Thank you so much. The 735 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: other shout out that I want to give is another 736 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: repeat from last year, but Nicole from Year of the 737 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: Calendar dot Com once again sent us gorgeous, fabulous planners, 738 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: and as everyone knows, I'm a planner junkie, I am 739 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: already so excited for my twenties sixteen planner. Uh. It's 740 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: so kind and generous when people send us stuff like this. 741 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: I just I really cannot convey enough how much I 742 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: appreciate just the fact that someone thinks of us and 743 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: wants to share part of their world with us, and 744 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: in cases like Nichol's, part of their you know art. 745 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: It's fabulous, So thank you so much to everybody I know. 746 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: There were other people that sent us great cards uh 747 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: and gifts, and we as we always sort of lament. 748 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: We don't have time to list or talk about all 749 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: of them, but I am so appreciative. It is super awesome. 750 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us, 751 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: you can email us at History Podcast at how stuff 752 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,240 Speaker 1: works dot com. You can also reach us at Facebook 753 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: dot com, slash misst in history, on Twitter at misst 754 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 1: in history, at picterest dot com, slash miss in history 755 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: at miss in history dot tumbler dot com, and on 756 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: Instagram at misst in history. But if you would like 757 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: to learn a little bit more about today's topic, you 758 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 1: can go to our parents site, how Stuff. We're type 759 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: in the words fashion history, and one of the really 760 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: cool things that comes up is actually a gallery called 761 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: the Changing Tides of Fashion. It kind of looks at 762 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 1: different moments in fashion throughout the years. If you would 763 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: like to visit us, you can do that at missed 764 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: in history dot com and there you will find a 765 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: show notes for all of the episodes since Tracy and 766 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: I have been working on the podcast, as well as 767 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: all of the archived episodes with all of the hosts 768 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,399 Speaker 1: that preceded us, and so once again kind of visit 769 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: us at how stuff works dot com and missed in 770 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: history dot com for more of this than thousands of 771 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 1: other topics how stuff works dot com