1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Note they call 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission controled decades. Most importantly, you are you, 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: want you to know. In previous episodes over the years, 10 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: we have covered aspects of quite a controversial organization that's 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: familiar to all of our long time listeners. That is 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: the Church of Scientology, the concept of scientology, and general 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: You'll note we did a previous episode several YouTube videos 14 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: on something called Operations snow White. We've also delved into 15 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: similar waters in the past, but uh today we are 16 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: immensely fortunate to be speaking with someone who has extensive 17 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: firsthand experience. As we always say, we like to go 18 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: to primary sources when possible, and that is why today 19 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: we are I'll say we are over the moon to 20 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: speak with Mike Render, former senior Scientology executive as well 21 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: as the co creator of the new podcast, Scientology Fair Game. Mike, 22 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: thanks so much for hopping on the show with us today. Oh, 23 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: you're very welcome, guys. I'm really happy to be here. 24 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: As one of my friends said, this is four white 25 00:01:51,840 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: males all and she said, yes, but they're good white males. 26 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: So I think I know, I think I know who 27 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: you're talking about. And uh and uh technically where uh 28 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: if you look at the four of us naggregate, we're 29 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: mostly white. But but splitty splitty two hairs the site. 30 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: You know, Mike, this podcast is doing some tremendous work 31 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: in terms of clarifying questions people outside of the organization 32 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: have had, correcting some myths, and giving an inside look 33 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: into scientology that many people would not have otherwise had 34 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: the chance to experience or learn about. So one of 35 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: our first questions for today is, um, Well, it's a 36 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: little bit of a loaded question, perhaps what was your 37 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: inspiration for the creation of Scientology Fair Game and could 38 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about how it came 39 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: about shaw Um, Really, the inspiration was COVID nineteen. I 40 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: know that that that's a sort of a wise guy answer, 41 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: but the truth of the matter is, after the end 42 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: of the Scientology and the Aftermath, which was the TV 43 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: show that Leah and I had done. We wanted to 44 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: continue to move into new areas and to explore things 45 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: in more depth and to be able to cover some 46 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: of the ground that we just were not able to 47 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: cover on that program. And initially our thought was, well, 48 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: we'll just do another TV show, and then the COVID 49 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: hit and there was no way of doing a TV 50 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: show and someone suggested to us, you know, you guys 51 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: should start doing a podcast. And you know, I already 52 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: have a blog that I do every day, and Leah 53 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: was like, wow, this sounds interesting. Do you think that 54 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: we can do I said, well, yes, it's great because 55 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: we can do it from home. We don't have to 56 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: go anywhere, we don't need to shoot crew, we don't 57 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: need a whole bunch of people. We can just sit 58 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: down and interview people or talk amongst ourselves and cover 59 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that we haven't been able to 60 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: cover before. So I I guess it's not an incorrect 61 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: answer to say that it was the pandemic that was 62 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: the inspiration, but it really is simply our desire to 63 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: keep chipping away at this monolithic monstrosity that is scientology 64 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: by providing more and more information in whatever forum we can, 65 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: and this is a great one. We're thoroughly enjoying doing 66 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: this podcast. I have I have a terrific time because 67 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: we get to chat with people and there's sort of no, no, 68 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: your restrictions or limitations. You don't have. Oh we've got 69 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: to get in six minutes before the next ad spot, 70 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: and we've gotta you know, it has to be a 71 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: forty three minute program that, like broadcast television, has got 72 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: a lot more things that people don't even realize who 73 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: haven't ever done it. Oh, for sure, I don't think 74 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: you're alone in COVID being an inspiration to start a podcast. 75 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: It seems like there's been sort of a podcast golden 76 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 1: age that has sprung up around around COVID. For sure. 77 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: It's it's definitely been an interesting time and they're happy 78 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: that that this led to this podcast up for from 79 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: you and leah Um. Can you talk a little bit 80 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: about the practice of fair gaming and the idea that 81 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: sort of led to the title of the podcast and 82 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: where you kind of fit into that in terms of 83 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: the organization, and just give listeners a little bit of 84 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: a background about this practice. And where you kind of fitting. 85 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: Fair gaming is or is a term that was coined 86 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: by L. Run Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, for the 87 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: activity of dealing with the enemies of scientology. And L 88 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: Run Hubbard, like old cult leaders, had proclivity to UH 89 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: designating a US versus them world, and that there was 90 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: always some monsters out there that are out to get 91 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: us scientologists, and those monsters have to be vanquished. And 92 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: the practice in scientology is called fair game, and it 93 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: really means to do anything necessary to obliterate that which 94 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: is perceived to be an enemy. And Scientology loves to say, well, 95 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: fair gaming has been a fair game. The term fair 96 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: game has been canceled, and that actually is true. L. 97 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: Run Hubbard issued a policy letter. UH. Policy letter is 98 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: the the official Scientology UM documents and writings of L. 99 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: Run Hubbard. That A considered to be scripture of the religion. 100 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: And I use religion in in quotation marks and church 101 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: in quotation marks. You can't see me doing that because 102 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: you're only hearing me. But this is my quotation marks, 103 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: just like that UM, and this is the scripture of scientology. 104 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: And Hubbard fancied himself as UH as many things I mean, 105 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: he claimed to be everything from a master photographer, to 106 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: a master mariner, to a horticulturalist, to a great researcher, 107 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: to a philosopher, to a race car driver, to like 108 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: anything and everything. But one of the things that he 109 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: claimed to be was an intelligence officer in from naval 110 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: intelligence during the War UH and that he had studied 111 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: all the the arts of intelligence, and that he was 112 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: an expert on COVID operations and black propaganda and all 113 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: of these things. And he wrote extensively in scientology about 114 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: how you go about employing all these techniques to destroy 115 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: your enemies. And I'll just go back because I mentioned 116 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: that he said that he had canceled this fair game. Yes, 117 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: he laid out all of these dictates on how you 118 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: go about destroying someone, and he called it fair game. 119 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: But then that became public and created some media flaps 120 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: back in the sixties, so he wrote a policy letter 121 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: that said cancelation of fair game. And I'm going to 122 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: quote this paraphrase it, but it's almost verbatim. The use 123 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: of the term fair game is canceled. It brought about 124 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: bad public relations, so we will no longer use the term. 125 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: But nothing about how we treat enemies of Scientology changes, 126 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: So Scientology comes out routine Lean says, we don't do 127 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: fair game. It was canceled by all run how fair 128 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: game is dead, fair game doesn't exist. Fair game this 129 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: fair game? That so Lee and I went, you know what, 130 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna call our show fair game, just to stick 131 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: it so that it you know, we know that that's 132 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of bullshit, and we're not gonna subscribe to 133 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: the lies and the obfuscation and the misdirection and whatever 134 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: that Scientology likes to engage in. And you asked me also, Noll, 135 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: what's my involvement, Well, my involvement is you were you 136 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: were one of the vanquishers I mean, correct. I it 137 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: was for almost two decades the head of what is 138 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: called the Office of Special Affairs of Scientology, and the 139 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: Office of Special Affairs is the department of Scientology designated 140 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: with the responsibility of destroying the enemies of Scientology. So 141 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: that was SPCE correct suppressive persons SPS. And I went 142 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: from destroying SPS to being the sp to be destroyed. 143 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: I want to I want to talk more about that, 144 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: but the first thing that comes to mind is the 145 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: vocabulary um Mike. I don't know if you've seen that show, 146 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: The Vow that's on HBO Max right now. Oh, it's 147 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: wonderful And in fact, we interviewed Mark the Sente last 148 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: week on our podcast. Oh that's amazing. Yeah, we should 149 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: listen to it. It's it's an amazing episode because the 150 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: parallels between Keith Ranieri and Next and Scientology are astonishing. Well, 151 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: what I wanted to get to are the similarities, because 152 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: as I'm watching that show and thinking about Scientology and 153 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: what we've learned on this show in the past, something 154 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: that really struck me were those similarities you're talking about. 155 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: And one of the big things that I noticed is this, 156 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: on the surface a self improvement program, uh for the individual, right, 157 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: and it's aided introspection appears to be the way that 158 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 1: you get to that better place and you see improvement. 159 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: But both have this extremely insular vocabulary. UM, and I 160 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: just wanted to know in your experience, how does having 161 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: a very like a large modified vocabulary, how does it 162 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: affect the way you think on a regular basis? That 163 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: is such an amazingly, incredibly smart question that no one 164 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: has ever asked me before. Okay, okay, seriously, this is 165 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: this is not unique to scientology. If you now study 166 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: all high control organizations or cults, you will find that 167 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: terminology that limits understanding two our confined group of people 168 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: is an important aspect of keeping them under under your 169 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: thumb and control. It makes outsiders all outsiders who are 170 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: uninformed and incapable of understanding, and insiders all smarter than 171 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: everybody else because they're the only ones that really understand. 172 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: And what's so fascinating about nexium is the terminology that 173 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: Keith Ranieri stole from scientology is identical. They talk about 174 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: technology and levels and ethics. They have disconnection they I mean, 175 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: it's it's a crazy amount of parallels between scientology and Nexium. 176 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: The big screw up that Keith Rinieri made was he 177 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: did not turn it into a religion. He should have. 178 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: He should He could have taken all the money, just 179 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: like scientology does. He could have had all the power 180 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: he wanted, and he would have had the protection of 181 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: the First Amendment in the United States. And that protection 182 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: is is almost like being a superman. You can walk 183 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: through walls and do all sorts of things that mim 184 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: models are unable, incapable, or illegal to do, and get 185 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: away with it, and that I think was ultimately the 186 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: downfall of Keith Ranieri. If he had had the bront 187 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: from millions to wage a legal war on the basis 188 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: that he was practicing a religion and that his adherents 189 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: were following religious beliefs and practices, he probably would not 190 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: be in prison right now. We're paying taxes, yeah, exactly, exactly. 191 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: But but but you know, Ben, you say that, and 192 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: that is true. But from my perspective, I have always 193 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: argued that the more important thing about tax exemption for 194 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: scientology was not that they could They didn't pay taxes. Yeah, 195 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: that sucks. Every every citizen of the United States is 196 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: subsidizing scientology. I mean that is a fact. But Scientology 197 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: could pay that. They got plenty of money. They got 198 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: three billion and dollars. They could pay taxes. More importantly, 199 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: two things. One with religious status from the I R 200 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: S comes no government oversight. Scientology and religions do not 201 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: have to file any record of what they spend their 202 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: money on, how much they make, whether they're spending all 203 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: to higher private investigators to go around and destroy people's lives, 204 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: or lawyers to to just funk with people for the 205 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: sake of fucking with them. And secondly, when you walk 206 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: into court and you tell a judge, uh, your honor, 207 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: I am sorry. You are forbidden by the First Amendment, 208 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: by constitutional law from engaging even in an inquiry into 209 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: whether our practices are appropriate or not. Because there is 210 00:15:54,920 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: a complete separation between courts and religion. You can't go there. 211 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: It works, It works all the time. Scientology has made 212 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: it well. I help make it work. It works, and 213 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: it prevents courts and law enforcement from taking action where 214 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: they otherwise would. And so Keith R. Nary made a 215 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: big screw up because he should have turned himself into 216 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: another l Run Hubbard messiah. That leads me to a 217 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: question was on my mind, Mike um as some of 218 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: our listeners are who are familiar with your work may 219 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: know uh. And I think maternal alluded to earlier. Uh, 220 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: you were a former senior Scientology executive. I think a 221 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: lot of people don't understand like senior can mean a 222 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: lot of things, but I think a lot of people 223 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: don't understand the specifics of it until you've laid out 224 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: the Office of Special Affairs and such. This one thing 225 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: that hit me when I was learning more about your experiences, 226 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: is that you actually joined SEA org see ORG itself 227 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: being one of the I think we're for outsiders to Scientology, 228 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: that that's one of the organizations or one of the 229 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: arms of the of Scientology. That really baffles a lot 230 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: of people. You know, you hear stories of folks signing 231 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: billion year contracts. You hear about l. Ron Hubbard I 232 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: guess also known as the commodore at times UH living 233 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: in international waters to avoid UH certain legal implications. Was 234 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: Hubbard on Sea order on Apollo specifically to avoid UH 235 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: legal problems with the I R s? Or were there 236 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: other world governments evolved or what what led him? And 237 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: then ultimately you to see ORG. Okay, that's a compound question, uh, 238 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: council counter counselor that's a compound question, but I will 239 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: endeavor to answer it. Okay. First of all, the Sea 240 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: Organization is probably best analogized to an order of the 241 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: Catholic Church, like or the Vatican. This is the most 242 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: dedicated people in scientology who live, work, eat, sleep, and 243 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: and do every other activity within the confines of the 244 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: Scientology organization. They are four seven three d sixty five 245 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: days a year full time scientologists working for scientology, and 246 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: it's not just stories. Every SIOUG member has to sign 247 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: in order to join up with the SIOUG a contract 248 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: for a billion years. Yes, that's right, b with a 249 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: B billion and l Ron Hubbard started the Sea Organization 250 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: in nine seven after he had been effectively he was 251 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: living in England at the time. He had gone to 252 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: Rhodesia because he believed that he had been cecil rhodes 253 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: in a previous lifetime. He had gone to Rhodesia to 254 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: reclaim his country, but had gotten kicked out of the 255 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: of Rhodesia and then returned tried to return to England, 256 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: where he was living, and the government there had effectively 257 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: banned him from re entry into the United Kingdom and 258 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: told him his visa was being denied for extension. He 259 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: was already in trouble with the f d A in 260 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: the U S and the I R S in the US, 261 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: so he went, Okay, I'm gonna go buy a boat 262 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: and sail around in international waters where I am out 263 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: of the jurisdiction of any specific government. The only problem 264 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: with that is, though, when you're sailing in international waters, 265 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: that's true. As soon as you get to a port, 266 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: you're definitely in the jurisdiction of the government. And he 267 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: went to Greece and got thrown out of Greece, he 268 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: got thrown out of Spain, he got thrown out of Morocco, 269 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: he got thrown out of Portugal. I mean, it was 270 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: sort of one thing after another, but he believed that 271 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: this was the way to stay out of trouble with 272 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: government agencies and authorities, and to some extent that worked 273 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: for a number of years because he was able to 274 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: move from one place to the next, to the next 275 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: and sort of out out of this hot water, jump 276 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: into the next part, and then that would eventually boil 277 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: over and then jump into the next one, until in 278 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: ninety five he sort of went well. Actually, what happened 279 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: was he had a heart attack in nine and I 280 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: was on board the ship with him in Curasao, and 281 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: the medical care there wasn't what he thought it was necessary, 282 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: so he decided have to go back to the US. 283 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: So we all ended up coming back to the United 284 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: States and and taking up residents in clear Water, Florida, 285 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: which is still the quote spiritual headquarters of scientology in 286 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: the world, clear Water, Florida. We're going to pause for 287 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and then we'll be back 288 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: with more from Mike Render. And we're back with our 289 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: conversation with Mike Render, formerly of the Church of Scientology. 290 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: You you knew Hubbard. I mean you you were in 291 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: the church from a very early age and you got 292 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: connected at a relatively high level pretty early. I think 293 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: in your teens you were on that chip and you 294 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: knew l Ron Hubbard himself. Can you talk a little 295 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: bit about how that came to be from being in 296 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: Australia and raised scientologist and then being on this ship 297 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: and international waters with this, you know, science fiction writer 298 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: come religious guru. Yes I can, Okay, no, no, no, 299 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: that the truth of the matter is being raised a 300 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: scientologist as a It's sort of like the the old 301 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: idea of uh families in the Catholic Church sending their 302 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: oldest son to to the Vatican to to serve and 303 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: ultimately hopefully rise to the level of being a bishop 304 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: or whatever. That really was my idea when I was 305 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: growing up. Was eventually the most important thing for me 306 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: to do, and what I aspired to do was to 307 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,239 Speaker 1: work with ll Run Hubbard, Like this is in in 308 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 1: the mind of a scientologist, This is like sitting at 309 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: the feet of Buddha. This is like going and and 310 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: being personally with the with the the ultimate authority and transcendental, 311 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: brilliant mind of the universe. And for a young scientologist 312 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: and a scientology family, that was kind of, oh, that's 313 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: pretty cool. If you can pull that off. There's not 314 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: many who do. There were only you know, people on 315 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: that ship with l Run Hubbard. That was it. That 316 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: was two fifty people in the entire world who got 317 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: to learn at the feet of the master. And so 318 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: it was it was a privilege and an honor, and 319 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: uh made the family proud that I went off to do, 320 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, serve my time with l. Run Hubbard. And 321 00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: he was he was an enigma in many respects. You know, 322 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: you read a lot, you know, since I left scientology, 323 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: I have read a lot, and I read a lot 324 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: about you know, personality disorders and sociopaths and psychopaths and 325 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: this and that. There are a lot of people and 326 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: they have very definite characteristics that are that are chattable 327 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,479 Speaker 1: and documentable, and they all had them. And Hubbard was 328 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: on one side, astonishingly charming. I mean, he had the 329 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: ability to charm people and tell stories and be very 330 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: gregarious and funny and and endearing almost and on the 331 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: other side it was like the jackal and hide. He 332 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: was like a raging lunatic. And it's it's interesting that 333 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: when at least in my experience, you are you are 334 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: associated with those people. And it's funny because you know, 335 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: some of the books talk about this. You tend to 336 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: look at others as you see yourself, and so you 337 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: look at someone and they're they're like, they tell jokes 338 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: and they're kind of nice, and they they ask how 339 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: you're doing and are you well, which was like a 340 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: Hubbard sort of trait, and you know, being very solicitous 341 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: and you're almost self effacing and then turning into a 342 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: rage monster and you go, well, I guess he just 343 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: gives a little upset that like you excuse it because 344 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: you don't believe that that's the real person. You believe 345 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: that that's the anomaly, and that the real person is 346 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: the good part, because that's how good people are, and 347 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: that's how you look at others sort of through your 348 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: own lens. And it takes quite a lot when, particularly 349 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: when you've been raised to believe that someone is like 350 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: the Guru and has the answers to everything in life 351 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: and has discovered things that nobody in the history of 352 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: the universe has discovered before to shake off the idea 353 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: that they could that that the bad that you were 354 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: seeing is really bad, and that it's not just an anomaly. 355 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: And and so, you know, like I said, Hubbard was 356 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: an enigma. Anybody that you talked to that actually met 357 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: the guy will tell you, my god, he was charming, 358 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: he was larger than life. He walked into a room 359 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: and the room lit up, and he was amazing, and 360 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: there were all this sort of stuff. And then did 361 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: you ever feel like maybe it was your like, Oh, 362 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to displease him. I don't want to 363 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: bring out that angry side. It could be my fault. 364 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: Maybe I did something wrong. Oh of course. And that's 365 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: a that's a fundamental prince of pull of scientology. I 366 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: was even gonna get to that null a fundamental principle. 367 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: And Hubbard was a genius in developing a lot of 368 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: the things that he did in scientology, because the idea 369 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: in scientology is that you are responsible for everything about 370 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: your state of being, and what if good things happen 371 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: to you, it's because you're good but if bad ship 372 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: happens to it's good things happen to it is because 373 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: scientology taught you how to how to experience the good. 374 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: If bad stuff happens to you, it's because of your 375 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: own evil transgressions, violations of the more rays of the group. 376 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: And if you look inside your own head and figure 377 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: out what it is that you have done that has 378 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: caused this bad ship to happen to you, it will 379 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: all resolve. So you look and you go, oh my god, 380 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: the old man is really he's really pissed. He's upset 381 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: of me. What did I do? How did I cause 382 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: that to happen? And that is probably the biggest trap 383 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: of scientology. You look around, because David Biscavige has a 384 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: lot less redeeming qualities than they'll run Hubbard. He's got 385 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot more bad uh traits and 386 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: a lot less sort of charismatic nice things that you 387 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: could say about him. And you look around, you go, 388 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: but there's people there that have been there for twenty 389 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: years and that he's beating them, and he's abusing them. 390 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: He spits on him, he calls him names, he cursses 391 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: them out, He has him dig shit out of the toilets, 392 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: you know, etcetera, etcetera. Why do they put up with it? 393 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: The reason they put up with it is because they 394 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: have been indoctrinated to believe because they're somehow bad and 395 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: they haven't discovered what they're evil is yet. But if 396 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: they keep working at it, they'll get there. Right, They're 397 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: they're being punished for a reason. You know, you said 398 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: something you said to really interesting things previously, Mike, where 399 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: you said you alluded to something called the prison of 400 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: the mind for for people who were practicing scientology. And 401 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: then you had also said, and I won't do a 402 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: compound question this time, promise, You had also said that 403 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: he uh, that David Mimskevidge in in particular, Uh, it 404 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: seemed kind of like an anomalous nutcase until you read 405 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: a book called The Sociopath next stores. Was that the 406 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: correct one? Yes, brilliant book by Matha Sell. Dr Matha Stell. Yeah. 407 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: And from what we understand about the good and the 408 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: bad of scientology, the idea is that one should one 409 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: should be able to control one's emotions. So isn't that 410 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: kind of a contradiction that he would be so filled 411 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: with rage? It's a complete contradiction. And it's a contradiction 412 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: for another reason. And there is tons and tons and 413 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: tons of contradictions in scientology. You don't see them until 414 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: you get out. But think about this what I just 415 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: told you about the the idea that when something bad 416 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: has happened to you, it's because of your evil doing 417 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: for everybody except the guy at the top. For the 418 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: guy at the top, his upset or bad stuff happening 419 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: to him is because everybody else is doing bad stuff 420 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: to him. For everybody underneath, what's that bad stuff happening 421 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: to members because of what they did? When it comes 422 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: to David Muscavite or l Ron Hubba knew that that 423 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: rule suddenly goes out the window. That rule comes David 424 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: Muskevitch is being abused by his subordinates. They are seeking 425 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: to upset him, They are destroying him, and they must 426 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: look inside them, their hearts and their minds to figure 427 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: out why they are seeking to destroy this great man. 428 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: And that was the same with They'll run Hubbard, And 429 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: you're exactly right, Ben. The idea that you fly off 430 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: into rage and start beating the crap out of people 431 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: is the example of the pinnacle of the scientology world, 432 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: that this is what this would be like. You know, 433 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: the Dalai Lama. The story start coming out about the 434 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: Dalai Lama that you know, he's got a sword set 435 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: in his in his place over there, and when someone 436 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: displeases him, he chops their fingers off, you know, like 437 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: it's just it doesn't it doesn't match up with what 438 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: is presented to the world that scientology teaches you and 439 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: processes you if you pay enough money to eradicate irrational, 440 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: mis emotional responses to the stimuli of the world. And 441 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: it's a huge contradiction. Absolutely, We're gonna take a quick 442 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: break here and we'll be back very shortly, and we're back, Okay, 443 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: So I think that right there. I haven't honestly, I 444 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: have not listened to much of your your show Scientology 445 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: Fair Game yet I cannot wait to. But I imagine 446 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: that you guys get into quite a bit of discussion 447 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: about uh, David and a lot of that on your show. 448 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: Would that be correct? Yes? Absolutely? That Okay, that's awesome. Again, 449 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: just from a group of guys who have been making 450 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: a show for a long time, that sounds like a 451 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: terrifying thought. Just when you think about um possible. You know, 452 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: the things that scientology has done in the past with 453 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: its First Amendment rights and uh large bags of money 454 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: that they have. UM, but I want to I want 455 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: to talk specifically about you. UH an experience that your 456 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: co host of Scientology Fair Game, Leah Remedy had at 457 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: one point in her life. She was well, I guess 458 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: I don't know force would be the correct word. She 459 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: was told to go to a facility in Clearwater, Florida 460 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: that you mentioned for a thing that was termed reprogramming. 461 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: Can can you talk to us about what that term 462 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 1: means within the context of scientology. Yes, I'm gonna try 463 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: and do this without using too much Scientology's in in 464 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: the description. But Leah made the mistake of questioning, uh, 465 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: the judgment and act of at ease of Tom Cruise 466 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: and David Muscavige, and for that that is a modal 467 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: sin when the world of scientology. She was told that 468 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 1: she must go to the facility in clear Water at 469 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: her own expense and ultimately cost a three hundred thousand dollars, Yes, 470 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars two receive this scientology auditing and 471 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: auditing in scientology is is you know what the term 472 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: that is used to describe scientology counseling, and it is 473 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: done with this like little Anita that's sort of like 474 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: a little lie detector. You hold these two cans and 475 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: it registers, and the person is doing on the other 476 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: side sort of goes, oh, you've got this, or you know, 477 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: tell me about that or whatever. Yeah, I want to 478 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: know um. And it was to get her two effectively 479 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 1: admit that everything, every critical thought, every criticism that she 480 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: had was stemmed from something that she had done. And 481 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: it's exactly what I was telling you before. This is 482 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: a very very very fundamental concept in scientology. It's not 483 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,919 Speaker 1: just if bad stuff happens to you. If you talk 484 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: shit about someone, it's because you've done bad things to them. 485 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: So it's it's the idea that you're critical of someone 486 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: because you have done something to hurt them or harm 487 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,479 Speaker 1: them in some way. So now are seeking to make 488 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: less of them so that you can make it seem 489 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,919 Speaker 1: that what you are doing and saying is correct. It's 490 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: that the problem with it is, and this is the 491 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: problem with a lot of scientology. There is some fundamental 492 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: truth to these things. There is some kernel of truth. 493 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: There is not a lot in scientology that is just 494 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: shear bullshit. There is a lot that is take a 495 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: thing and turn it into something with a twisted logic 496 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: that changes actually what it in, what it started out being, 497 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: into something that is almost diametrically opposed. And you see 498 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,240 Speaker 1: that in the vowel too. You see how Ranieri managed 499 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: to twist things that had some fundamental concept or idea 500 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: in it, like being living up to your word, and 501 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: turned that into being a slave. Now, how you get 502 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: from one to the other is kind of astonishing, but 503 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: he managed to convince plenty of people to do it, 504 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: to the point where they were calling up and asking 505 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: am I allowed to eat in another thirteen calgaries? Masta? 506 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: That is that is crazy. But just like scientology, something 507 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: there was some fundamental principle that's you could agree with, 508 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: or a truth that you could agree with, that then 509 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: gets built upon and built upon and sort of interpreted 510 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: and twisted. And that's what happens with these concepts in scientology. 511 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: And that's what Leo was doing there for all that time. 512 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: Was until she had found something that explained every single 513 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: critical thought or comment she had made, she was not 514 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: free to go This sits on another thing that's um 515 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: that's been often talked about, again from outside reports and 516 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: often from former members of the organization, which is the 517 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: idea of essentially being held against one's will being allowed 518 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: to go. Uh. It makes me think specifically of the 519 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: news that we hear every so often about David M. 520 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: Kvig's spouse, who has been out of the public eye 521 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 1: for quite a long time. Mike, is is it true 522 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: that this organization has or does hold people against their 523 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: will or is it more of like an emotional peer pressure? Okay, yes, 524 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: this organization does hold people against their will. They can 525 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: be falsibly held and restrained and prevented from leaving. And 526 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: I have seen that happen and it is so or 527 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: people locked in a room and not let out, that 528 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But that's not really what the problem is. 529 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: The problem is people being held based on their will 530 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: because their will has been bent and they believe that 531 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: what they are doing is ultimately going to be their salvation. 532 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,479 Speaker 1: That and you know, Larry Wright in his brilliant book 533 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: Going Clear that he's subtitled Scientology and the Prison of Belief, 534 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: because that's what it is. This is the Stockholm syndrome. 535 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: This is the idea that you can change someone's thinking 536 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: to the point where they believe that staying is best 537 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: for them, even if staying means being locked in a 538 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: room and sleeping on the floor and being tortured every day, 539 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: and you know, like crazy stuff. But you this is 540 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: not limited to scientology either. You know, look at the 541 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: people that were at Jonestown, Look at the people that 542 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: are in fundamentalist Mormon you know, Warren Jeff's turning their 543 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: kids over to some widow pervert to be to become 544 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: their sex slaves. I mean, this is and this is 545 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: a concept that is very, very difficult to to persuade 546 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: anybody to act upon. And what I mean by that 547 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: is so often you see um people seeking justice for 548 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: what has been done to them, and courts and law 549 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: enforcement don't recognize that twisting someone's mind is like is 550 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: just is just as as damaging and intrusive and and 551 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:54,439 Speaker 1: inappropriate than twisting their arm. But because it's not a 552 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: physical you know, there's no physical assault, and the laura 553 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: is about salt and battery. There's no law about a 554 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: salt and battery of the mind. And so a lot 555 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: of this stuff goes and and you know, people don't. 556 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: Courts don't know what to do with it. Do Do 557 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: they believe that someone was brainwashed? Do they buy into 558 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: the idea that such a thing as brainwashing exists? Even 559 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: if you call it by another name, don't call it brainwashing, 560 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: mental coercion, whatever. Is that something that is actionable? Is 561 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: that something that you can do something about? Can you 562 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: prove it? It's but believe me, it is way way 563 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 1: more down. You can recover from a twisted um, it's 564 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: much harder to recover from a twisted mind. Well. And 565 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: you can also take a photograph of a bruise and 566 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 1: enter it into an exhibit in court. You can't take 567 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: a photograph of a of a damaged mind or even prove. 568 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: The burden for proving like pain and suffering or psychological 569 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 1: damage so much higher than being able to say, this 570 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: person punched me, and here's the proof, here's a polaroid, 571 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: and it's done. You know, you can't do it, um 572 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: And and this this leads to, I mean, quickly, just 573 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: to follow up, clearly, you and Leo were able to disconnect, 574 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, and and go on with your lives, uh, 575 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, but still that has resulted as you being 576 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: top listed people of folks who can threaten the church. 577 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know that to me is is easy. Again, 578 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: it's the mind. It's the twisting of the mind to 579 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: believe that you are foregoing your eternity, that if you 580 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: if you walk away from this, you're losing your family, 581 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: you're losing your friends, you're losing everything that you've ever known. 582 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 1: That if there's something, I mean, these guys managed to compartmental. 583 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: I've heard Jun travol To say this often, Well, you know, 584 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: I don't know everything that's going on. Bullshit, I don't 585 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: know everything that's going on. Uh not really, I don't 586 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: know everything that's going on. But what I do know 587 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: is that scientology has helped me. So why wouldn't I 588 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: continue to participate in something that has helped me? And 589 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: that is a pretty unassailable position to take, because who 590 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: are you to say, well, it hasn't helped you. Look 591 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 1: at your dummy, it hasn't helped you. But it is 592 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: also you can ask John Travolta, well, have you watched 593 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: The Aftermath? Did you read the did you read the 594 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: article in the Tampa Bay Times? Have you read Lawrence 595 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: Writes book? Why would I do that? Why would I 596 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: want to read bad stuff about something that has helped me. 597 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: And this is another thing that Scientology and Nexium and 598 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: everyone else has made a very a sort of a 599 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,439 Speaker 1: study of how do you persuade people not to look 600 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: at anything bad about you? How do you persuade them 601 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: that it is harmful to them spiritually? If they look 602 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: at something bad, it's going to detract from their progress 603 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: in Scientology, and ultimately code code cost them more money 604 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: to have to undo the bad effects of that on them. 605 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: And and when I'm saying to you this, realize for 606 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: a scientologist, if they go read US magazine and there 607 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: is a negative story about Tom Cruise in there, or 608 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: Leah Remedy is interviewed in US magazine, they are going 609 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: to have to go in and pay for the auditing 610 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: that unburdens them of the horrible sin of having looked 611 00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: at something negative about Scientology, because that's regress them in 612 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: their progress. So many questions we may not get to 613 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,279 Speaker 1: all of them, But this reminds me, Mike of the 614 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: massive dump of internal documents from Wiki leaks a few 615 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: years back, which I know was a huge deal inside 616 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,919 Speaker 1: the organization. I can only imagine, but definitely outside the organization, 617 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: And we were stunned when we realized that people who 618 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: were in the organization, we're being told, look, this is 619 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,359 Speaker 1: out there, but don't read it, you know what I mean, 620 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:39,760 Speaker 1: treated as though it doesn't exist. And uh, I see 621 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: now the financial incentive inherent there. You had earlier said 622 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: Scientology is worth three billion dollars with a lack of oversight. Uh. 623 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: Do people ever reach a point in the organization? Do 624 00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: they progress to a point where there are no law 625 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: younger being asked to pay money for audits or anything 626 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: like that. It's a gift. Seriously, No, No, you can 627 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: reach the very top of the Scientology bridge to total 628 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,879 Speaker 1: freedom and then be told, oh, sorry, we found something new. 629 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,359 Speaker 1: You need to go back and start over. And this 630 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 1: is something that Nixium has too. I was speaking to 631 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,479 Speaker 1: Sarah Evanson the other day and she told me, she said, 632 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: do you know we had to redo our training. We'd 633 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,800 Speaker 1: get all, we get our scoff or whatever those things 634 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: sash and then they'd come out and say, oh no, 635 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: you have to go back and redo it all and 636 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: you have to pay again. And it's the same thing 637 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: in Scientology. You have to redo it. And we got 638 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 1: we found some new I'm just formally unknown piece of 639 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,320 Speaker 1: information from l. Run Hubbard that was buried in someone's 640 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: suitcase under their bed somewhere, and suddenly, now everything that 641 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: you did before has to be redone. And not only that, 642 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 1: we now have a new fundraising program. We have to 643 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: buy new facilities for every church in the world. And 644 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: they we call these ideal Organs. And Scientology has been 645 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: opening these buildings around the world for the last twenty 646 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,880 Speaker 1: years on a theory that David Bis Scavenge presented a 647 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 1: Scientologists that in order for Scientology to truly expand, it 648 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 1: had to have buildings and facilities that would allow all 649 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,240 Speaker 1: aspects of scientology to be presented in an appropriate fashion 650 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: for everyone. So we need new buildings and they have 651 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: to be x number of square feet and it's gonna 652 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: cost twenty million dollars and blah blah blah blah. So 653 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:02,839 Speaker 1: pay out and this pay up for that and for 654 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:08,320 Speaker 1: the another thing called the International Association of Scientologists, which 655 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:14,800 Speaker 1: is a uh is a scam. It's just a scam. 656 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,839 Speaker 1: It's like scientologists believe that giving money to the International 657 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: Association of Scientologists is helping educate children in Africa or 658 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: save people from hurricanes, or you know, do good work 659 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,720 Speaker 1: for the the victims of earthquake in Haiti or whatever. 660 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: And it's bullshit. It does not happen. The most that 661 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: happens is they go and shoot a video and then 662 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: they show everybody, look at this video. We got five 663 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: people in this video, but there were thousands more that 664 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:50,359 Speaker 1: you just can't see. And keep giving us money, and 665 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 1: we will give you these gaudy bowling pin bowling trophies 666 00:48:55,120 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: and start calling you Platinum Excalibur something or other or 667 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:07,839 Speaker 1: Platinum Meritorious Patron of the Gluteus Maximus or like it's 668 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:14,760 Speaker 1: it's like these bizarre, absurd names and people hand over 669 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: ten fifty million dollars. And like I said, with no oversight, 670 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: scientology never has to show its books. They never have 671 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: to show tithing, right, And isn't that basically the same 672 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: thing as tithing to a church, like well, if if tithing, well, 673 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,480 Speaker 1: you typically you think of tithing as like ten percent. 674 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,280 Speaker 1: If tithing was fifty, that's more of the scientology model 675 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:46,920 Speaker 1: fifty or more. Like Scientology is ruthless about getting money. 676 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 1: Go take a loan, go, you know, get cash in 677 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: your your college fund, get your stocks, sell your stocks, 678 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 1: sell your house, do whatever, get us the money now. 679 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,720 Speaker 1: But us, this money right now is going to save 680 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: the world. They've been saying that for fifty years is 681 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: and things aren't going so good. Our conversation with Mike 682 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:17,880 Speaker 1: Render continues and it goes in some fascinating to a 683 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: degree disturbing places, so much so that we did not 684 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,040 Speaker 1: want to cut any of it, and we have decided 685 00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: to make this a two part episode. We promised that 686 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 1: this is going to be worth it. We hope that 687 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,319 Speaker 1: you join us for Part two of this interview, which 688 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 1: is coming out later this week. In the meantime, we 689 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:46,440 Speaker 1: highly recommend checking out Mike and Leah's new podcast, Scientology 690 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 1: Fair Game. Yeah. There, you can find deep dives into 691 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,880 Speaker 1: so many of the incredible stories that Mike and Leah 692 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 1: have from their time in Scientology. So definitely worth giving 693 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 1: both part two of our episode with my and the 694 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:06,319 Speaker 1: entirety of Scientology Fair Game your full attention, absolutely, and 695 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: if you want to continue the conversation that occurred here today, 696 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: head on over to Here's where it gets Crazy our 697 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,240 Speaker 1: Facebook group. You can you know, comment in there, respond 698 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,279 Speaker 1: to somebody else, meet some other conspiracy realists. You will 699 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,960 Speaker 1: enjoy your time, we assure you, as long as you 700 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,880 Speaker 1: use Facebook or you're willing to, I guess. Or you 701 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter, where we are also conspiracy stuff, 702 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: or Instagram where we're conspiracy stuff show. Visit us on 703 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: YouTube while you're on the internet if you want to 704 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 1: see our excerpts from our recent episodes, or if you 705 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,719 Speaker 1: want to see our original deep cut things that are 706 00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:51,920 Speaker 1: intros to rabbit holes galore, Uh, including piece on Operations 707 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,080 Speaker 1: snow White, which we which we may may mention a 708 00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: little more in depth in our interview. And I think 709 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 1: there's one called a Wednesday vlog. Something has a title 710 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: something like that. I can't remember exactly, but it's a 711 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,440 Speaker 1: video on that channel with Ben in a parking like 712 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: underground parking deck two. We're discussing scientology and I can't 713 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,319 Speaker 1: recall exactly what it is, but find it. Oh yeah, 714 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: those are the days when we were we were literally 715 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,600 Speaker 1: sneaking around the office film me wherever we could. Uh. 716 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,240 Speaker 1: You can also, if you feel so inclined, leave us 717 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,919 Speaker 1: a review on Apple podcast or iTunes. Uh. It makes 718 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 1: a big difference every time that there is a five 719 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: star review. Uh. Our boss calls us and says that 720 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,759 Speaker 1: I am one week further away from being fired. Yeah, 721 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,440 Speaker 1: and then angel gets its wings and my son says, 722 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:54,640 Speaker 1: good chop, dad, I love you. Three amazing things that happened. 723 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: You have the power. And uh, if you are anti 724 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 1: internet but profull boy, do we have news for you. 725 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,680 Speaker 1: You call our number. It is one eight three three 726 00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,880 Speaker 1: S T D W y t K. Leave a message 727 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: you may get onto one of our new listener male 728 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: episodes that come out weekly. So make sure you you 729 00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: leave your name or not, and tell us if you're 730 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: comfortable with us using it or not. Just really give 731 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: us all of all your comfort level stuff everything. Uh, 732 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,720 Speaker 1: and we'll we'll see what we can do. We're very 733 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 1: very much looking forward to hearing your stories from this, 734 00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,799 Speaker 1: especially if you have ever been involved in scientology in 735 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 1: one way, shape or form ever in the past or 736 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:41,719 Speaker 1: are now. We just want to we want to hear 737 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,240 Speaker 1: from you. But what do you do if you hate phones? 738 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: What do you do if you hate social media? It's 739 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:53,360 Speaker 1: a pressing question for our times, boy, is it ever? Well, 740 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,959 Speaker 1: there's a way you can send us a good old 741 00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:18,440 Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at I heart radio dot com. Yeah. Stuff, 742 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,360 Speaker 1: They Don't Want You To Know is a production of 743 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,360 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 744 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,360 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 745 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,720 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.