WEBVTT - Part Two: How Woody Guthrie Turned Folk Music into a Weapon 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:03.800 Also media. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:10.240 Welcome back to the Court of Robert Evans Bastard Guy podcast. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.960 Yeah that's right, got a gabble. See take that our engineers, 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:16.320 they're not gonna be happy. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:17.480 Who let you get a gap? 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.000 I got sent this by the judge again. It works 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.000 exactly like vampires made me. And it's lovely. It's a 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.120 beautiful gabble, look at it. 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:24.560 Yeah. 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:27.200 I can also buy that from like toy z r 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.120 Us or whatever children's store has survived. 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:32.240 It would mean nothing at all in your hands, Sophie, 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.000 you haven't gone through the extensive training and preparation to 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:37.120 become a United States municipal judge like. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.160 I have cool. 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.080 Cool, Welcome back to behind the bast I. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.680 Really hate that you have power of any kind. 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.400 I know, I know, tremendous power, unaccountable power. I'm now 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.879 eligible for the Supreme Court. Although I think technically anyone 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:54.200 is fun. 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:55.040 Uh. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:59.720 I actually think you would be a no. 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:01.360 Yeah, I'd be a great. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.319 Supremacurt you'd be better than one Supreme Court like ninety 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.320 percent of the time and then ten percent of the time. 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:08.360 You would be like I think that every one should 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.840 have a personal nuke. You be k canster, but here's 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:13.399 the thing. I think you'd be better going to. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:14.560 Be any more home invasions. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.040 Margaret, You're better than the nine we have. 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:19.080 You know, that's very true? 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:20.320 Quite true? 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.080 Yeah, Well, speaking of someone who would have been better 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.160 on the Supreme Court, Woody Guthrie, that's who we're talking 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.200 about in part two of these episodes, yep, Margaret dad, 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.040 though not his clansman of father. 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.759 Before we jump into this, though, I want to plug 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:38.560 something really fast, if that's okay. 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:38.839 Uh oh. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.160 I just want to plug a series that our colleague 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.360 and my dear friend, Jimmie lost Fist has been doing 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.840 on her podcast, sixteenth Minute of Fame. Ever heard of 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.600 it about the Manosphere? I think they and the Bastard's 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.760 audience would really enjoy it. Jimmy has worked very hard 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.440 on the writing is incredible, So check that out on 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:57.600 sixteenth Minute of Fame. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.680 The Manisphere, if you're not aware, is the kind of 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:05.280 colloquial term for this network of far right generally like 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.360 masculinity influencers. All all of them have fed into the 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:11.360 trumpest movement in groups like the Proud Boys. It's a 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.440 very important like social phenomenon that explains a lot of 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:16.360 why we are where we are right now, and Jamie 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.359 does a great job of breaking it down, so check 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.320 that out. On sixteenth minute. 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.920 Robert is interviewed on one of the parts. 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.000 Ooh, sure, I've only heard part one so far. 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.680 I am. I am well speaking of part two, Let's 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.200 do the part two of these episodes. 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.160 Huh, yes, No, I also haven't talked to this one yet. 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.200 Let's kill it. Let's murder it. Let's bury it in 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.079 the woods in a tree stump, under a tree stump 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.840 so that nobody finds it, and then cash in at 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:48.079 Social Security for you. I don't know what I'm doing here, Margaret, 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.560 Part two, So what do you go? Thrie had weed 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.919 Mary in nineteen thirty three, and by nineteen thirty six 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.800 when he quit Texas for California, which is what you 0:02:57.840 --> 0:02:59.679 have to legally call it when you're talking about the 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.680 night teen thirties, she'd had one child with him and 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.519 was pregnant with another, and he kind of abandons her, 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.280 like not entirely, like he doesn't like break up with her, 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.160 and like she eventually moves to California with him, but 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.240 he does just kind of bounce to go try and 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.040 find a living you know, in the West, and this 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.120 is a thing a lot of guys are doing and 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:20.920 a lot of people have to do. It's also not 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.519 a thing that the family's thrilled with. The specific project 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:26.920 that he left for was a dam that was being 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.840 built outside of Redding, California, in a place called Happy Valley. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.440 I have lived in and around there. I can assure 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.960 you it is not a particularly happy valley now, and 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.520 it wasn't one then either. In fact, the name was 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.160 kind of like ironic like because it was a shanty 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:46.320 town that was miserable, so like Greenland, like Greenland. Yes, 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:48.880 it's a I guess probably a better place now, although 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.680 I can't really in good conscious recommend anyone go to Redding. 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.080 So yeah, anyway, that's where Woody heads up to and 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.560 he's there for a little while. It's in this shanty 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.960 town with like about five thousand other work seekers who 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.160 are all like you know, showing up to try and 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.160 q in lines and get jobs every day. Right, And 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.080 there were a lot of spaces like this around the country, 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:10.600 you know, there were a lot of these government work 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.200 camps basically right which is where Woody is, And there 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.760 were also in areas like Sacramento, and Seattle. These things 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:21.240 called Hooverville's and Hooverville's were essentially large camp sites built 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.479 by homeless workers and their families as they migrated around 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.760 searching for work during the Great Depression. 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.040 Well, it's actually in the US they're called vacuum towns, vacuumville. 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.120 That was good. That was good, Margaret, Thank you, it 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:33.440 was good. 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:34.480 Thanks, I'll be here all day. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.600 Electro lux cities, I don't know. I just think it's 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.040 funny because the old catchphrase was nothing sucks like an 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.839 electro lux And I've never heard an advertisement that was 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.920 more clearly made before the Internet. You couldn't get away 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:48.760 with that today, or you could, but it would be 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:49.520 a different. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.240 Pro Although in England they had the we put the 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.839 d and Bread campaign only a couple of years ago. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.479 That pretty funny, Yes. 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:55.839 Not bad. 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.200 I'm never gonna get over that, oh Man. So hoovervill 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.839 were named kind of it was an attack on President 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:04.680 Herbert Hoover, right, Like that's why they get their to 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.200 him because he was this this will not sound familiar 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.720 to anything that's about to happen. He was this corrupt 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:15.640 Republican president whose policies which benefited the incredibly wealthy, fed 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.600 into the Great Depression, and like allowed for the kind 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.880 of deregulation that made it much worse. And we're seen 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.960 as having largely led the country into economic calamity. And 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.599 so they named these massive homeless camps for like homeless families. Basically, 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.719 Hooverville's the largest and longest lasting. I'm not sure if 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:36.880 it was absolutely the largest, but it was the longest 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.520 lasting and among the largest. Hoovervilles was outside of Seattle, 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.799 and it stood from nineteen thirty one to nineteen forty one. 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.880 As an interesting side note, it was operated on land 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.400 next to Elliott Bay South, which I believe is where 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.160 Fraser's condo was meant to be located in the TV series. 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.680 That doesn't mean anything. I just thought it was interesting. 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.080 So Wood he missed out on the big West coast Hooverville's, 0:05:58.120 --> 0:05:59.880 but he was in and round. You know, reading is 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.520 people who are heading up to Seattle or coming back 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.720 down from Seattley's talking to them. There's a big one 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.480 in Sacramento. He's talking to them, and he's in this 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.360 work camp and Happy Valley that's kind of similar Hooverville, right, 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.120 And he's supposed to be up there working on this 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.000 big damn project. But he does a lot better and 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.359 it's a lot more stable for him to just busk 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.320 for music, right, and so that's what he actually spends 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.520 most of his time doing. Now, I say he's better 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.040 at this than he is at laboring, he's not great 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.360 at it, and he's only able to send the occasional 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:31.919 very small money order back home to his wife and 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.440 two kids. So he is not The idea is I'm 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.919 coming out here to support my family, but he's not 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.040 able to support Mary. She and her now two kids 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.200 are utterly dependent on her parents, which was a very 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.839 embarrassing situation for her. Mary later said, I know it 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.640 upset my dad a lot, my mother too. Wood he 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.400 wasn't doing the manly thing, And I think it's both 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.760 worth like saying that that's her impression and the family's 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:00.320 impression of this. This is not an uncommon position for 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.880 people to be in, and I don't know that Woody 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.560 was doing very well back in Texas, so it's kind 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.200 of unclear to me, you know, what the right thing 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.480 to do here was. Ultimately, Woody, like a lot of people, 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.880 was put in a very difficult situation of trying to 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.080 do something he hoped would allow him to support his family, 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.400 and it didn't work very well for a while, right, I. 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:23.920 Mean it was the Great Depression. 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:25.240 It was like a Great Depression. 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.120 Yeah. We see a lot of this now, where like 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.480 people are like, oh, I'm failing under capitalism, I must 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.200 personally be a failure and you're like, yeah, no, times 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:34.360 are really hard right now. 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.240 Well, and we also on this show, like we've had 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:41.240 like guys like Steven Segall who as a guest yes yes, uh, 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.760 friend of the pod, like absolutely abandoned his family to 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.720 start his Hollywood career. That is a story we've told 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.440 a few times. Woody is his family feels like he's 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:53.360 doing that at the start. That's not actually what he 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.400 does here, right, because he's not actually like cutting ties 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.120 with them. But they're not. 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:00.680 Migrant laborers do this all the time today, Like my 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.840 grand labors come to the United States. They're not abandoning 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:04.920 their family to try and but. 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:06.800 They're usually not going out there to play guitar. 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:07.840 That's fair. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.760 Yeah, I think that's kind of part of why, because 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.000 he's not really doing the work that you know, a 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:14.960 lot of these other guys were you know, he's doing 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.040 some of that, but that's not how he really makes 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.480 most of his bread. Yeah, So in short order, Wood 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.280 he left Reading for Glendale, which I've also done, and 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.960 I can tell you good call, much better place to 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.400 be than reading. He vaguely knew that he had an 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.880 aunt in the area, and as was often the case, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.600 he just sort of they're not like sending letters usually 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.120 back and forth. They certainly don't have phones or whatever 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.000 you usually just like I was told once by a 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.120 relative that I have an aunt in Glendale. I'm just 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.760 gonna show up and figure out where she is and 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:48.280 hopefully she'll take me in. And social ties were such 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.280 that when he shows up on her doorstep, she's like, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.560 all right. He is twenty five years old when he 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.480 makes it to the Los Angeles area after several months 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.600 of stress and internal recriminations because what, he's not thrilled 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.280 with himself either. He had wanted to be doing better. 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.080 He knows how little he's sending back to his family. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.000 He's not happy about this. He gets a lucky break 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.200 courtesy of his cousin Leon, who everyone else either called 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.559 Jack or Oki Guthrie, and Ok is like a it's 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.200 kind of a pejorative term for someone from Oklahoma. Both 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.120 was used as an insult and also is like a 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.400 term of pride by people from Oklahoma. Right, the Guthries 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.400 are all Oakie's right, so calling him ok Guthrie must 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.000 have been a little bit confusing to like Woody, who 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:30.160 is also an Okie. 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:30.920 Uh huh. 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.920 Jack and his family had left home back at the 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.480 start of the Depression and moved to Sacramento. Like many Guthries, 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.960 he was musically talented, and so was his wife, and 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.960 they'd built a reputation for themselves as good musicians and performers. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.040 He suggested teaming up with Woody to try and start 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.199 and act in Los Angeles. This was not the obviously 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.640 good idea that it would later seem, as Ed Gray 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.480 explains in the book ramblin Man. Jack was a Western singer. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.560 His songs were heavily influenced by popular music. Wood he 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.040 was a country singer, his music born of an older 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.360 oral tradition. In practice, they could neither sing nor play 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:10.360 guitar together. Indeed, would he privately despise the treakly sentiment 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.079 of jack sagebrush serenades. Jack the guitarist used the jazz 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.680 influenced chords of popular music and played up the neck 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.160 of the instrument. Would he disdained chords beyond the minimal tonic, 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.440 subdominant and dominant. So this is not a great pairing 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.080 and Wood he's a little bit like he's a little 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.920 bit of a snob. Right, It's like, Oh, your music's 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.840 all popular and jazzy. You're not doing the cool punks. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.200 You know, it's not really punk. But that's it's very 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.600 similar in attitude to that kind of guy. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.240 Right, I mean he's doing folk punk before, it's. 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.400 Right, Yeah, at least he's about to be starting to 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:42.120 do folk punk. 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.360 It's interesting because the country western eye had never occurred 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.120 to me that those were separate categories. 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.320 Yes, because I mean it's this mix of these songs 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.959 that are like folk songs that are we would call 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.920 western because they're like songs about the West and about 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.520 you know, being a cowboy or whatever, and songs that 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.640 are like Western songs that are made for like the 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.120 different kinds of like floor shows and entertainment, you know, 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.840 radio and whatever that's popular at the time. Like those 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.319 are kind of different beasts. So in better times, these 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.480 guys probably would never have worked together. But desperation made, 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.800 you know, some kind of collaboration necessary, and they developed 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.200 a fairly successful act and we're able to book recurring 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.040 gigs on the radio through a station called kf VD. 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.080 Woody found himself increasingly drawing the folk music with a 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:32.199 sense of class consciousness, like Goebel Reeves nineteen thirty four. 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:36.280 Tune Hobo's Lullaby, And here's Woody Guthrie singing a portion 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.120 of Hobo's Lullaby, which is again a song by another guy. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.640 And this is a folk song, it's also kind of punk, 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:44.280 as you'll catch from this section. 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.840 Oh, I used to listen to it while riding trains. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:48.079 Oh well, the guitar. 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:59.400 I know. The police calls you trouble. They call trouble 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:07.800 every but when you die and go to heaven, you 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.000 find policeman. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:22.600 Okay, that's good. That's a good little bar. So I 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.360 would also be remiss because that's pretty cool if I 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.120 didn't expound on the fact that racism too was a 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.720 recurrent part of wood He's act and often on his 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.800 mind while living in Echo Park and fighting on behalf 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.320 of poor white people, because he's like an activist, you know, 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.880 helping like rent strike type stuff right, Like he is 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.600 an advocate for like poor downtrodden white people living in 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.280 Los Angeles. He also is drawing cartoons of people he 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.840 called jungle blacks and monkeys, and like that's bad. He 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.320 wrote poems so racist that I don't even feel like 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.200 I should describe them on the air to you, They're bad. 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.400 Oh god, Yeah, found a good LA Weekly article on 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.160 the subject by an author named Johnny Whiteside, and I'm 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.760 going to read a quote from it now. Broadcasting on 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.520 Pasadena's Kaffidi, Guthrie often indulged in on air employee of 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.480 a Bonix, and was stunned when a black listener characterized 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.360 the singer as unintelligent after hearing Guthrie performed songs with 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:20.480 titles like Run, Inward Run, and Inward Blues. Fortunately for Guthrie, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.200 recordings of these tunes do not survive. Later, Guthrie said, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.960 a young negro in Los Angeles wrote me a nice 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.480 letter one day telling me the meaning of that word, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:31.760 the inWORD, and that I shouldn't say it anymore on 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.280 the air, so I apologized. He next tore all the 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.760 Inward songs out of his songbook. Huh, so you can 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.200 take that however you want. Right, the fact that he 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.120 is singing that kind of stuff on the air and 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.800 like just writing poems about it not great. But he's 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:52.040 also not unable to change or immune to criticism. So 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.560 he's willing to like listen to this criticism that a 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.400 black man gives him and be like, oh, you know what, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:58.640 that is kind of fucked up and that ain't nothing 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.920 for the son of a klansman, right when you're yeah, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.480 you know again, that's kind of up to your personal take. 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.920 When we talk about like how do you judge people, 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.440 you know, to what extent do you judge them based 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.480 on their time or based on some sort of concept 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.600 of objective morality, one thing that always matters to me 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:18.560 is where did they start versus where did they end up? Right, 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:23.360 Because someone who was raised in a slaveholding household and 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.000 becomes an abolitionist but is still racist is a lot 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.480 more impressive to me than a guy who just like 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:34.280 isn't outwardly racist because he grew up in the nineteen nineties, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.560 but like crosses the street when he sees a. 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.120 Black guy, right, totally. 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.640 Because one of those is a person who like went 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.800 on a journey recognized a bad thing about themselves and 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:44.560 made changes. 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.600 You know, there's people that like will never get my 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.520 pronouns right, who I suspect would kill someone who tried 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.320 to hurt me. And there's other people who would absolutely 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.640 always get my pronouns right and be super respectful and 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:58.760 would be like, oh no, a bad thing is happening 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:00.480 if they watch me get murdered for them. 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:00.800 You know. 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.640 Yeah, I'm trying to be like, it's therefore okay, Like 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:05.479 I'm not trying. 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.360 The reason I included this because it's pretty bad and 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:08.520 you should know that about the guy. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:10.320 Yeah, yeah, no, I'm not trying to Yeah, but. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.720 This is not a part of his entire life or 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.880 his whole creative life. He writes anti racist songs later 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.080 in life, Like, it does seem like he makes a change, 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.360 And I do think it's worth noting like this is 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.640 a guy who was raised by a klansman in like 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.400 the thirties, twenties and thirties, you know, so you know, again, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.960 you can figure out morally wherever you want to figure 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.600 that out. But I don't think it's worth kind of 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:34.760 looking at the whole sweep of the personal journey the 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.000 man went on there in nineteen thirty seven, Woody's wife, 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:40.880 Mary and two children moved to Los Angeles to be 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.520 with him. Jack wound up leaving the act and show 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.000 business for a while, but Woody paired up with Maxine Chrisman, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.840 whose family was friends with his cousin and had taken 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:54.400 Woody in too. He dubbed Maxine Lefty Lou. The Tube 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.120 played songs by other artists that spoke to the poor 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.920 and downtrodden, like Hobo's Lullaby, but they also started playing 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:05.200 Woody's original compositions, like the Talking dust Bowl Blues. This 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.680 song really embodies what people were starting to love about Woody. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.440 His music had a wartz end all description of life 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.960 during the Depression and the struggles of the hundreds of 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.320 thousands of people who were forced to move west during 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.760 the dust Bowl. He sung about relatable nuts and bolts 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.800 issues that are still familiar to a lot of people today. 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.920 If you were a poor punk kid who lived on 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.920 a semi permanent road trip for a while basically and 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.360 had the experience of trying to coast by turning your 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.400 car off on downhill runs because you can't afford gasoline, 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.200 here's Woody Gathrie singing about the same thing. 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.720 Way up yonder on the mountain curve. It's a way 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:43.760 up yonder in the pine, he would. And I give 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.440 that rolling forward to shove and eyes going to coast 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:51.200 as fur as it could come in coasting pigging up 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:59.520 speed was a half in turn. I didn't make it, man, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.040 I'm telling you. The fiddles and the guitars really flew. 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.439 That Ford took off like a b lime squirrel, and 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:09.720 it flew halfway around the world, scattered wives and children's 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.800 all over the side of that mountain. 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.480 Man, I don't know. 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:20.120 I love his talking blues. 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:21.639 Yeah, I love his talking. I love the way he 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.520 says children like. It just tickles the hell out of me. 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.200 Reminds me of the good parts of Live in a 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.600 fucking middle of Nowhere, Oklahoma. Like I do like that 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:32.160 about him. And you know what I like. 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:36.040 Even more, Margaret, is it the sponsors of the show. Yes, 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:37.159 they're all great. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.760 They're all great, and they've all had the experience of 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.280 having the coast in their Ford truck to save gas 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.560 money too. Look, it's hard times for everyone, even large brands. 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.520 They've probably driven stuff off of the road before. 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.600 Yeah. Absolutely, we could talk about what truck drivers are 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.000 forced to do in order to make their times. Anyway, 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:59.800 whatever we're done, Margaret, Yes, I do find it fun. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.880 How much of like his dust Bowl songs are very 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:08.080 relatable to like punk life today. Yeah, totally hate the 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:12.040 cops fucking coasting in my car, you know, camping out 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:13.639 on the woods and shit like did. 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:15.640 He do Big Rock Candy Mountains as this someone else. 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.560 In my head? He did Big Rock Candy Mountains, but 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:18.640 I didn't double check on that. 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:20.879 I mean, he might have just sung it. 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.359 I'm fairly certain I've heard a version of the song 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.359 by him. Harry McClintock was the guy who I first 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:29.480 recorded and wrote it. 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.800 Yeah, one of the first people I ever rode trains with. 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:33.520 I haven't written trains nearly as much as going to 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.199 make it sound like when I do these episodes, But 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.159 was this focusing on him Ryan Harvey, And so that's 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.000 why I have a lot of these associations with riding 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.399 trains in particular. But we used to sit around and 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.960 sing Big Rock Candy Mountains, but change the words very 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.840 slightly to be like modern anarchy, and you didn't have 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.720 to change much. And my favorite was and the Hens 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.760 lay Vegan Eggs was my favorite clan. 0:18:53.240 --> 0:19:02.080 Ah that's good. Oh man, that's funny. Wait a second, yeah, 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:06.200 yeah yeah, police dogs can't sniff your weed. Yeah, totally 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.480 so Wood. He had attained a degree of local fame 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.080 by thirty eight thirty nine. Right nineteen thirty eight to 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.000 nineteen thirty nine, he's doing reasonably well. In fact, he 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.480 and Lefty Loo were so beloved that the radio station 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.080 where they played received thousands of fan letters over the 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.600