1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Court of Robert Evans Bastard Guy podcast. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: Yeah that's right, got a gabble. See take that our engineers, 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: they're not gonna be happy. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 3: Who let you get a gap? 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: I got sent this by the judge again. It works 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: exactly like vampires made me. And it's lovely. It's a 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: beautiful gabble, look at it. 9 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 4: Yeah. 10 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: I can also buy that from like toy z r 11 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: Us or whatever children's store has survived. 12 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: It would mean nothing at all in your hands, Sophie, 13 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: you haven't gone through the extensive training and preparation to 14 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: become a United States municipal judge like. 15 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 3: I have cool. 16 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: Cool, Welcome back to behind the bast I. 17 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: Really hate that you have power of any kind. 18 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: I know, I know, tremendous power, unaccountable power. I'm now 19 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: eligible for the Supreme Court. Although I think technically anyone 20 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: is fun. 21 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 4: Uh. 22 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: I actually think you would be a no. 23 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd be a great. 24 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 3: Supremacurt you'd be better than one Supreme Court like ninety 25 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 3: percent of the time and then ten percent of the time. 26 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 3: You would be like I think that every one should 27 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 3: have a personal nuke. You be k canster, but here's 28 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 3: the thing. I think you'd be better going to. 29 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: Be any more home invasions. 30 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: Margaret, You're better than the nine we have. 31 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: You know, that's very true? 32 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 3: Quite true? 33 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, speaking of someone who would have been better 34 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: on the Supreme Court, Woody Guthrie, that's who we're talking 35 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: about in part two of these episodes, yep, Margaret dad, 36 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 2: though not his clansman of father. 37 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: Before we jump into this, though, I want to plug 38 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: something really fast, if that's okay. 39 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 2: Uh oh. 40 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: I just want to plug a series that our colleague 41 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: and my dear friend, Jimmie lost Fist has been doing 42 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: on her podcast, sixteenth Minute of Fame. Ever heard of 43 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: it about the Manosphere? I think they and the Bastard's 44 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: audience would really enjoy it. Jimmy has worked very hard 45 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: on the writing is incredible, So check that out on 46 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: sixteenth Minute of Fame. 47 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: The Manisphere, if you're not aware, is the kind of 48 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: colloquial term for this network of far right generally like 49 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: masculinity influencers. All all of them have fed into the 50 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 2: trumpest movement in groups like the Proud Boys. It's a 51 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: very important like social phenomenon that explains a lot of 52 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: why we are where we are right now, and Jamie 53 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 2: does a great job of breaking it down, so check 54 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: that out. On sixteenth minute. 55 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: Robert is interviewed on one of the parts. 56 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: Ooh, sure, I've only heard part one so far. 57 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: I am. I am well speaking of part two, Let's 58 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: do the part two of these episodes. 59 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: Huh, yes, No, I also haven't talked to this one yet. 60 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: Let's kill it. Let's murder it. Let's bury it in 61 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: the woods in a tree stump, under a tree stump 62 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: so that nobody finds it, and then cash in at 63 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 2: Social Security for you. I don't know what I'm doing here, Margaret, 64 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: Part two, So what do you go? Thrie had weed 65 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: Mary in nineteen thirty three, and by nineteen thirty six 66 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: when he quit Texas for California, which is what you 67 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 2: have to legally call it when you're talking about the 68 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: night teen thirties, she'd had one child with him and 69 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 2: was pregnant with another, and he kind of abandons her, 70 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: like not entirely, like he doesn't like break up with her, 71 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: and like she eventually moves to California with him, but 72 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: he does just kind of bounce to go try and 73 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: find a living you know, in the West, and this 74 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: is a thing a lot of guys are doing and 75 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: a lot of people have to do. It's also not 76 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 2: a thing that the family's thrilled with. The specific project 77 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: that he left for was a dam that was being 78 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: built outside of Redding, California, in a place called Happy Valley. 79 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: I have lived in and around there. I can assure 80 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: you it is not a particularly happy valley now, and 81 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: it wasn't one then either. In fact, the name was 82 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: kind of like ironic like because it was a shanty 83 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: town that was miserable, so like Greenland, like Greenland. Yes, 84 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: it's a I guess probably a better place now, although 85 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: I can't really in good conscious recommend anyone go to Redding. 86 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: So yeah, anyway, that's where Woody heads up to and 87 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: he's there for a little while. It's in this shanty 88 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: town with like about five thousand other work seekers who 89 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: are all like you know, showing up to try and 90 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: q in lines and get jobs every day. Right, And 91 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: there were a lot of spaces like this around the country, 92 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: you know, there were a lot of these government work 93 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: camps basically right which is where Woody is, And there 94 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: were also in areas like Sacramento, and Seattle. These things 95 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: called Hooverville's and Hooverville's were essentially large camp sites built 96 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 2: by homeless workers and their families as they migrated around 97 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: searching for work during the Great Depression. 98 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 3: Well, it's actually in the US they're called vacuum towns, vacuumville. 99 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: That was good. That was good, Margaret, Thank you, it 100 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: was good. 101 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 3: Thanks, I'll be here all day. 102 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: Electro lux cities, I don't know. I just think it's 103 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: funny because the old catchphrase was nothing sucks like an 104 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: electro lux And I've never heard an advertisement that was 105 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: more clearly made before the Internet. You couldn't get away 106 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: with that today, or you could, but it would be 107 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: a different. 108 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 3: Pro Although in England they had the we put the 109 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 3: d and Bread campaign only a couple of years ago. 110 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 2: That pretty funny, Yes. 111 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 4: Not bad. 112 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: I'm never gonna get over that, oh Man. So hoovervill 113 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: were named kind of it was an attack on President 114 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: Herbert Hoover, right, Like that's why they get their to 115 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: him because he was this this will not sound familiar 116 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 2: to anything that's about to happen. He was this corrupt 117 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: Republican president whose policies which benefited the incredibly wealthy, fed 118 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 2: into the Great Depression, and like allowed for the kind 119 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: of deregulation that made it much worse. And we're seen 120 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: as having largely led the country into economic calamity. And 121 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 2: so they named these massive homeless camps for like homeless families. Basically, 122 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: Hooverville's the largest and longest lasting. I'm not sure if 123 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: it was absolutely the largest, but it was the longest 124 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: lasting and among the largest. Hoovervilles was outside of Seattle, 125 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 2: and it stood from nineteen thirty one to nineteen forty one. 126 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: As an interesting side note, it was operated on land 127 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: next to Elliott Bay South, which I believe is where 128 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 2: Fraser's condo was meant to be located in the TV series. 129 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: That doesn't mean anything. I just thought it was interesting. 130 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: So Wood he missed out on the big West coast Hooverville's, 131 00:05:58,120 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: but he was in and round. You know, reading is 132 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: people who are heading up to Seattle or coming back 133 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 2: down from Seattley's talking to them. There's a big one 134 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: in Sacramento. He's talking to them, and he's in this 135 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: work camp and Happy Valley that's kind of similar Hooverville, right, 136 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: And he's supposed to be up there working on this 137 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: big damn project. But he does a lot better and 138 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 2: it's a lot more stable for him to just busk 139 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 2: for music, right, and so that's what he actually spends 140 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: most of his time doing. Now, I say he's better 141 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: at this than he is at laboring, he's not great 142 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: at it, and he's only able to send the occasional 143 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 2: very small money order back home to his wife and 144 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: two kids. So he is not The idea is I'm 145 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 2: coming out here to support my family, but he's not 146 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: able to support Mary. She and her now two kids 147 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: are utterly dependent on her parents, which was a very 148 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: embarrassing situation for her. Mary later said, I know it 149 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: upset my dad a lot, my mother too. Wood he 150 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: wasn't doing the manly thing, And I think it's both 151 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: worth like saying that that's her impression and the family's 152 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: impression of this. This is not an uncommon position for 153 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: people to be in, and I don't know that Woody 154 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: was doing very well back in Texas, so it's kind 155 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: of unclear to me, you know, what the right thing 156 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: to do here was. Ultimately, Woody, like a lot of people, 157 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: was put in a very difficult situation of trying to 158 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: do something he hoped would allow him to support his family, 159 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: and it didn't work very well for a while, right, I. 160 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 3: Mean it was the Great Depression. 161 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: It was like a Great Depression. 162 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. We see a lot of this now, where like 163 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: people are like, oh, I'm failing under capitalism, I must 164 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 3: personally be a failure and you're like, yeah, no, times 165 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 3: are really hard right now. 166 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: Well, and we also on this show, like we've had 167 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: like guys like Steven Segall who as a guest yes yes, uh, 168 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 2: friend of the pod, like absolutely abandoned his family to 169 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: start his Hollywood career. That is a story we've told 170 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: a few times. Woody is his family feels like he's 171 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: doing that at the start. That's not actually what he 172 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: does here, right, because he's not actually like cutting ties 173 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: with them. But they're not. 174 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 3: Migrant laborers do this all the time today, Like my 175 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: grand labors come to the United States. They're not abandoning 176 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 3: their family to try and but. 177 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: They're usually not going out there to play guitar. 178 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: That's fair. 179 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's kind of part of why, because 180 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: he's not really doing the work that you know, a 181 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: lot of these other guys were you know, he's doing 182 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: some of that, but that's not how he really makes 183 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: most of his bread. Yeah, So in short order, Wood 184 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: he left Reading for Glendale, which I've also done, and 185 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: I can tell you good call, much better place to 186 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: be than reading. He vaguely knew that he had an 187 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: aunt in the area, and as was often the case, 188 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: he just sort of they're not like sending letters usually 189 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: back and forth. They certainly don't have phones or whatever 190 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: you usually just like I was told once by a 191 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: relative that I have an aunt in Glendale. I'm just 192 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: gonna show up and figure out where she is and 193 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: hopefully she'll take me in. And social ties were such 194 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: that when he shows up on her doorstep, she's like, 195 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: all right. He is twenty five years old when he 196 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: makes it to the Los Angeles area after several months 197 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: of stress and internal recriminations because what, he's not thrilled 198 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: with himself either. He had wanted to be doing better. 199 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: He knows how little he's sending back to his family. 200 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: He's not happy about this. He gets a lucky break 201 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: courtesy of his cousin Leon, who everyone else either called 202 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 2: Jack or Oki Guthrie, and Ok is like a it's 203 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 2: kind of a pejorative term for someone from Oklahoma. Both 204 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: was used as an insult and also is like a 205 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: term of pride by people from Oklahoma. Right, the Guthries 206 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: are all Oakie's right, so calling him ok Guthrie must 207 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: have been a little bit confusing to like Woody, who 208 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: is also an Okie. 209 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: Uh huh. 210 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: Jack and his family had left home back at the 211 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: start of the Depression and moved to Sacramento. Like many Guthries, 212 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: he was musically talented, and so was his wife, and 213 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 2: they'd built a reputation for themselves as good musicians and performers. 214 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: He suggested teaming up with Woody to try and start 215 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 2: and act in Los Angeles. This was not the obviously 216 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: good idea that it would later seem, as Ed Gray 217 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: explains in the book ramblin Man. Jack was a Western singer. 218 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: His songs were heavily influenced by popular music. Wood he 219 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: was a country singer, his music born of an older 220 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 2: oral tradition. In practice, they could neither sing nor play 221 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 2: guitar together. Indeed, would he privately despise the treakly sentiment 222 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 2: of jack sagebrush serenades. Jack the guitarist used the jazz 223 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 2: influenced chords of popular music and played up the neck 224 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: of the instrument. Would he disdained chords beyond the minimal tonic, 225 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: subdominant and dominant. So this is not a great pairing 226 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: and Wood he's a little bit like he's a little 227 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: bit of a snob. Right, It's like, Oh, your music's 228 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 2: all popular and jazzy. You're not doing the cool punks. 229 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 2: You know, it's not really punk. But that's it's very 230 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: similar in attitude to that kind of guy. 231 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: Right, I mean he's doing folk punk before, it's. 232 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, at least he's about to be starting to 233 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: do folk punk. 234 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 3: It's interesting because the country western eye had never occurred 235 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: to me that those were separate categories. 236 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 2: Yes, because I mean it's this mix of these songs 237 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 2: that are like folk songs that are we would call 238 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: western because they're like songs about the West and about 239 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: you know, being a cowboy or whatever, and songs that 240 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: are like Western songs that are made for like the 241 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: different kinds of like floor shows and entertainment, you know, 242 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 2: radio and whatever that's popular at the time. Like those 243 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: are kind of different beasts. So in better times, these 244 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: guys probably would never have worked together. But desperation made, 245 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: you know, some kind of collaboration necessary, and they developed 246 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: a fairly successful act and we're able to book recurring 247 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: gigs on the radio through a station called kf VD. 248 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: Woody found himself increasingly drawing the folk music with a 249 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 2: sense of class consciousness, like Goebel Reeves nineteen thirty four. 250 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: Tune Hobo's Lullaby, And here's Woody Guthrie singing a portion 251 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: of Hobo's Lullaby, which is again a song by another guy. 252 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: And this is a folk song, it's also kind of punk, 253 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: as you'll catch from this section. 254 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 3: Oh, I used to listen to it while riding trains. 255 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 3: Oh well, the guitar. 256 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 4: I know. The police calls you trouble. They call trouble 257 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 4: every but when you die and go to heaven, you 258 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: find policeman. 259 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: Okay, that's good. That's a good little bar. So I 260 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: would also be remiss because that's pretty cool if I 261 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: didn't expound on the fact that racism too was a 262 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: recurrent part of wood He's act and often on his 263 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: mind while living in Echo Park and fighting on behalf 264 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 2: of poor white people, because he's like an activist, you know, 265 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: helping like rent strike type stuff right, Like he is 266 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: an advocate for like poor downtrodden white people living in 267 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: Los Angeles. He also is drawing cartoons of people he 268 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 2: called jungle blacks and monkeys, and like that's bad. He 269 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: wrote poems so racist that I don't even feel like 270 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: I should describe them on the air to you, They're bad. 271 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: Oh god, Yeah, found a good LA Weekly article on 272 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: the subject by an author named Johnny Whiteside, and I'm 273 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: going to read a quote from it now. Broadcasting on 274 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: Pasadena's Kaffidi, Guthrie often indulged in on air employee of 275 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: a Bonix, and was stunned when a black listener characterized 276 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: the singer as unintelligent after hearing Guthrie performed songs with 277 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: titles like Run, Inward Run, and Inward Blues. Fortunately for Guthrie, 278 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: recordings of these tunes do not survive. Later, Guthrie said, 279 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: a young negro in Los Angeles wrote me a nice 280 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: letter one day telling me the meaning of that word, 281 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: the inWORD, and that I shouldn't say it anymore on 282 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: the air, so I apologized. He next tore all the 283 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: Inward songs out of his songbook. Huh, so you can 284 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: take that however you want. Right, the fact that he 285 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: is singing that kind of stuff on the air and 286 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: like just writing poems about it not great. But he's 287 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: also not unable to change or immune to criticism. So 288 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: he's willing to like listen to this criticism that a 289 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: black man gives him and be like, oh, you know what, 290 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: that is kind of fucked up and that ain't nothing 291 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: for the son of a klansman, right when you're yeah, 292 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: you know again, that's kind of up to your personal take. 293 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: When we talk about like how do you judge people, 294 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 2: you know, to what extent do you judge them based 295 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: on their time or based on some sort of concept 296 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: of objective morality, one thing that always matters to me 297 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 2: is where did they start versus where did they end up? Right, 298 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: Because someone who was raised in a slaveholding household and 299 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: becomes an abolitionist but is still racist is a lot 300 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: more impressive to me than a guy who just like 301 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: isn't outwardly racist because he grew up in the nineteen nineties, 302 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: but like crosses the street when he sees a. 303 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 3: Black guy, right, totally. 304 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: Because one of those is a person who like went 305 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: on a journey recognized a bad thing about themselves and 306 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: made changes. 307 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: You know, there's people that like will never get my 308 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: pronouns right, who I suspect would kill someone who tried 309 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: to hurt me. And there's other people who would absolutely 310 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: always get my pronouns right and be super respectful and 311 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: would be like, oh no, a bad thing is happening 312 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 3: if they watch me get murdered for them. 313 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 4: You know. 314 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to be like, it's therefore okay, Like 315 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:05,479 Speaker 3: I'm not trying. 316 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: The reason I included this because it's pretty bad and 317 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: you should know that about the guy. 318 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm not trying to Yeah, but. 319 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: This is not a part of his entire life or 320 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: his whole creative life. He writes anti racist songs later 321 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: in life, Like, it does seem like he makes a change, 322 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 2: And I do think it's worth noting like this is 323 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: a guy who was raised by a klansman in like 324 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: the thirties, twenties and thirties, you know, so you know, again, 325 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: you can figure out morally wherever you want to figure 326 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: that out. But I don't think it's worth kind of 327 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: looking at the whole sweep of the personal journey the 328 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: man went on there in nineteen thirty seven, Woody's wife, 329 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 2: Mary and two children moved to Los Angeles to be 330 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: with him. Jack wound up leaving the act and show 331 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: business for a while, but Woody paired up with Maxine Chrisman, 332 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: whose family was friends with his cousin and had taken 333 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: Woody in too. He dubbed Maxine Lefty Lou. The Tube 334 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: played songs by other artists that spoke to the poor 335 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: and downtrodden, like Hobo's Lullaby, but they also started playing 336 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: Woody's original compositions, like the Talking dust Bowl Blues. This 337 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: song really embodies what people were starting to love about Woody. 338 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: His music had a wartz end all description of life 339 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: during the Depression and the struggles of the hundreds of 340 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: thousands of people who were forced to move west during 341 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: the dust Bowl. He sung about relatable nuts and bolts 342 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: issues that are still familiar to a lot of people today. 343 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: If you were a poor punk kid who lived on 344 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: a semi permanent road trip for a while basically and 345 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: had the experience of trying to coast by turning your 346 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: car off on downhill runs because you can't afford gasoline, 347 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: here's Woody Gathrie singing about the same thing. 348 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 4: Way up yonder on the mountain curve. It's a way 349 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 4: up yonder in the pine, he would. And I give 350 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 4: that rolling forward to shove and eyes going to coast 351 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 4: as fur as it could come in coasting pigging up 352 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 4: speed was a half in turn. I didn't make it, man, 353 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 4: I'm telling you. The fiddles and the guitars really flew. 354 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 4: That Ford took off like a b lime squirrel, and 355 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 4: it flew halfway around the world, scattered wives and children's 356 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 4: all over the side of that mountain. 357 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: Man, I don't know. 358 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 3: I love his talking blues. 359 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love his talking. I love the way he 360 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: says children like. It just tickles the hell out of me. 361 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: Reminds me of the good parts of Live in a 362 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: fucking middle of Nowhere, Oklahoma. Like I do like that 363 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 2: about him. And you know what I like. 364 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: Even more, Margaret, is it the sponsors of the show. Yes, 365 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 3: they're all great. 366 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: They're all great, and they've all had the experience of 367 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: having the coast in their Ford truck to save gas 368 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: money too. Look, it's hard times for everyone, even large brands. 369 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 3: They've probably driven stuff off of the road before. 370 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, we could talk about what truck drivers are 371 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: forced to do in order to make their times. Anyway, 372 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: whatever we're done, Margaret, Yes, I do find it fun. 373 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 2: How much of like his dust Bowl songs are very 374 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 2: relatable to like punk life today. Yeah, totally hate the 375 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: cops fucking coasting in my car, you know, camping out 376 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: on the woods and shit like did. 377 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 3: He do Big Rock Candy Mountains as this someone else. 378 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: In my head? He did Big Rock Candy Mountains, but 379 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 2: I didn't double check on that. 380 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 3: I mean, he might have just sung it. 381 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: I'm fairly certain I've heard a version of the song 382 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 2: by him. Harry McClintock was the guy who I first 383 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 2: recorded and wrote it. 384 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the first people I ever rode trains with. 385 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 3: I haven't written trains nearly as much as going to 386 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 3: make it sound like when I do these episodes, But 387 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 3: was this focusing on him Ryan Harvey, And so that's 388 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: why I have a lot of these associations with riding 389 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 3: trains in particular. But we used to sit around and 390 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 3: sing Big Rock Candy Mountains, but change the words very 391 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 3: slightly to be like modern anarchy, and you didn't have 392 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 3: to change much. And my favorite was and the Hens 393 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 3: lay Vegan Eggs was my favorite clan. 394 00:18:53,240 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: Ah that's good. Oh man, that's funny. Wait a second, yeah, 395 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 2: yeah yeah, police dogs can't sniff your weed. Yeah, totally 396 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 2: so Wood. He had attained a degree of local fame 397 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: by thirty eight thirty nine. Right nineteen thirty eight to 398 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty nine, he's doing reasonably well. In fact, he 399 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 2: and Lefty Loo were so beloved that the radio station 400 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: where they played received thousands of fan letters over the 401 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: course of just a few months. They were doing okay 402 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: in terms of money, but not great because again, he 403 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: has a lot of fans, but they're broke ass dust 404 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: bowl refugees, So he's not getting rich off these people, right, 405 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 2: And he's also not very interested in getting rich. He 406 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: seemed to feel like he had a responsibility to reach 407 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: and provide relief for his people suffering in government work 408 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: camps and embarrassed by their situation. From a write up 409 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 2: by the Library of Congress quote he also sang at 410 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: government camps that gave these people some measure of dignity, health, 411 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: and safety. Joining him was Will Gear, an actor and 412 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,959 Speaker 2: ernest leftwinger, who helped would he better understand the injustice 413 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: of an economic system that would allow Americans to live 414 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: in such pa And this is where he starts getting 415 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: pilled on socialism, right, and eventually becomes a communist. He 416 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: will call himself a card carrying communist, as we'll talk 417 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: about he never actually has a card, and he could. 418 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 3: Have gotten one. 419 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: But Wood, he's a little bit of a fabulous right 420 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 2: He lies a little bit, not in a way that 421 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: is massively meaningful, because he was a communist and very committed, 422 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 2: but you know, he also he's a little bit of 423 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: a tall tale spinner. So yeah, and you know it's 424 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 2: to his credit that he's again, rather than focusing on 425 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 2: making money off of this growing fame, he's giving a 426 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 2: lot of free shows to provide relief for his people. 427 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 5: Right. 428 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: He is very dedicated to his people in a way 429 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: that I think is pretty admirable. Wood. He's popularity and 430 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 2: by now fairly mature class consciousness started to make him 431 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: more connections with the radical political set, including various left 432 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: wing writers, journalists and socialists and communist activists. He began 433 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 2: writing songs that spoke not just of left wing politics, 434 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 2: but of the rage of the working and increasingly his 435 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: own hatred of the people that maintained the system that 436 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: kept his people down trodden. In nineteen thirty nine, he 437 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: wrote one of his most famous songs, The Ballad of 438 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: Pretty Boy Floyd, about an Oklahoma outlaw active in the 439 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 2: early nineteen thirties who regular listeners will know was my cousin. Now. 440 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: My great grandmother knew him as a girl. I grew 441 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: up here in songs about him from her and my family. They, 442 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: as I talk about, often very conservative people. But my 443 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 2: great grandma particularly would always tell us, you know, you 444 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 2: got outlaw blood in you, right, like it was something 445 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: she was very proud of. In a way that's a 446 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 2: little weird if you heard the way these people tended 447 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: to talk about other like urban crime, right. Outlaw crime 448 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 2: was very different to them. And I'm talking particularly my 449 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: relatives who were survivors of the Great Depression. Outlaws are 450 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: very different than modern criminals in their eyes. Right. I'm 451 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: not saying that's actually a fair, but their conception of 452 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: these people is extremely different. And a big part of 453 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 2: why is not just Woody, but songs like this that 454 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: would he made. Who turned these guys who were bank 455 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 2: robbers and gangsters into Robin hood figures, right, and Floyd 456 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 2: was a fairly easy one to turn into a Robinhood character, 457 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: because he kind of was at least a little bit 458 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 2: that guy. There's a debateis to like how much of 459 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: that sort of character was real and how much of 460 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: it is kind of myth making that Floyd did, but 461 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: some of it's certainly true. Floyd was born in Georgia, 462 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: but had moved with his family to Aiken's, Oklahoma, in 463 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: nineteen eleven, and his career as a criminal had started 464 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: early when he was arrested at age eighteen for stealing 465 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: three dollars and fifty cents worth of I think stamps 466 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 2: from a post office. A few years later, he robbed 467 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: a payroll in Saint Louis. So he goes from like 468 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 2: stamp theft to armed robbery fairly quickly, and he does 469 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: three years or so in prison for that. After he's released, 470 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 2: he becomes a Kansas City area bank robber. One thing 471 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: you get about Floyd is he that doesn't seem to 472 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: have ever considered not being a criminal. Yeah, just immediately. 473 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 3: Like, no, you know, he found this thing that sort 474 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 3: of works. Yeah, well, because it didn't really work. That's 475 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: the other weird thing about it. Huh. 476 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: No, but he never really thinks about doing anything but 477 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: being an outlaw, and he quickly gains He starts Robin 478 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: Banks in Kansas City, and he earns the nickname pretty Boy, 479 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: which eventually becomes pretty Boy Floyd because people thought he 480 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: was very good looking. He hated this nickname. So he's 481 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 2: gonna pull up a picture of the man. You can 482 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 2: decide yourself how good looking he was. 483 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 3: Is this a picture of Luigi? 484 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: Americans do love their sexy criminals. 485 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, huh, not my type, but you know, the 486 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: standards were not as high back. He's got like a 487 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 3: soft gaze that nice, you know. 488 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, prominent nose, good jaw line. 489 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not bad looking. 490 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: Certainly, not nice hair. Yeah. 491 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's better looking at what he got. Three if 492 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: we go to ab real quick. 493 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, he is a hardened criminal. He killed at least 494 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 2: one federal agent. He also killed the sheriff of Macintosh County. 495 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: Other members of his gang killed several police officers and 496 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: other criminals as well. There are multiple police officer murders 497 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: that he is also a suspect in that we don't 498 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: fully know did he kill all those cops, but he 499 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: killed a number of cops you know, like he shoots 500 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: a lot of police. In the early depression years, he 501 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 2: took to robbing banks in Oklahoma, where in addition to 502 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: taking money for himself, he would destroy mortgage documents in 503 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: order to free poor farmers from debt. 504 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 3: Hell. 505 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, now we don't fully know if this happened, right, 506 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 2: It's not the kind of thing how would you prove it? 507 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: For one thing, right, people told stories about it. I 508 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: will tell you that everyone I knew in the towns 509 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: in Oklahoma like where he had been active, and again 510 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 2: including my family members who knew him, would tell you 511 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: that this is what he did. I don't know. It's 512 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: not provable. It's one of those things where it would 513 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 2: make sense for him to do it, even if he 514 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: was not really morally a Robin ho character, because if 515 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: you're destroying people's mortgages, they will hide you from the cops. Yeah. 516 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: Like, I could tie this back to Italy. In the 517 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 3: eighteen seventies, Mala Testa and all these other anarchists in 518 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 3: Italy in Benevento Province would go and their idea of 519 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 3: how to do propaganda of the deed was to go 520 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 3: and they'd march on these small towns and they would 521 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 3: destroy the tax and ownership records and they were like 522 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 3: and then everyone would come out and be like, you 523 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 3: have freed us. The priest was like came out of 524 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 3: the church and was like, these people have been sent 525 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 3: by God to free us. And then they all got arrested. 526 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 3: But then they actually only spent like a year in 527 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 3: jail because everyone was going so crazy in Italy at 528 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: that point that they were like, you know, we better 529 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 3: just let these people out. 530 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't go too hard on these people. Everyone 531 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 2: really likes them for so much. 532 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that's like there is a specific point 533 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 3: and if you're going to be a criminal, if you 534 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: go hard enough and make everyone like you, there's a 535 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 3: certain safety in that. 536 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: One of my favorite Floyd's stories is that he had 537 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 2: a gang and his gang decided they wanted to rob 538 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: a bunch of people on like Black Wall Street at 539 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: one point, which was very well armed, and Floyd was like, well, 540 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: you guys can go do that. I'm not fucking with that, 541 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 2: that seems like And sure enough they got fucking like 542 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 2: shot to pieces. Yeah. So he was a smart man. 543 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:16,719 Speaker 3: Yeah. 544 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 2: My other favorite story about him I mentioned in my 545 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: high school ap English class that he was a cousin 546 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: of mine, and my teacher, who was, you know, in 547 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: her fifties or something, he said, he shot my grandfather 548 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 2: in the leg. 549 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 3: Oh did you get in that class, buddy. 550 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 4: No. 551 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: No, she was like, it's okay. Again, because she was 552 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: raised in this same culture, she was like, it's okay. 553 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: Like pretty boy said, no move, and my grandpa moved. 554 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: You know, he didn't kill him, he just shot him 555 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 2: in the leg a little. Again, there's a lot of 556 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 2: tolerance for these specific sorts of outlaws in that part 557 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: of the South. 558 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 3: Like it's that you probably wouldn't find today. Just to 559 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 3: be clear, anyone listening that you probably wouldn't find today, 560 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 3: you will not find today. 561 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: So again, fascinating character. And yeah, I can't say how 562 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 2: much of the whole robin Hood thing is true, but 563 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: I think a lot of the robin Hood image that 564 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 2: he has comes from Woody. Although it's also worth noting 565 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: he is part of why it takes so long for 566 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: him to get caught, because he's like one of the 567 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: last gangsters to get caught and killed by the government. 568 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: His death is generally agreed to have heralded the end 569 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: of the gangster era. Huh, yeah, because I think thirty 570 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: four is when he's gunned down, and like there's a 571 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 2: lot of stories of him like hiding with little old 572 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 2: ladies and lying to the cops. And then when he 573 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 2: like leaves, there's one hundred dollars bill under the plate 574 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: where she'd fed him dinner or something like that. So 575 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty nine, you know, about five years after 576 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 2: his death, when memories of this guy are still very strong, 577 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: Woody writes the song that is very much responsible for 578 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 2: crystallizing this image of pretty Boy Floyd as this kind 579 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: of like banded outlaw king of the American South. And 580 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: we're just going to listen to that song because it's 581 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: Christmas and it's a song about my cousin. 582 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 5: Hell. 583 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, if you'll gather around me, children, a story I 584 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 4: will tell about perty Boy Floyd and Outlaw Oklahoma and 585 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 4: you him. Well. It was in the town of Shawnee 586 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 4: Saturday afternoon, his wife beside him in his wagon as 587 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 4: into town may road. Baron Deputy Shirt approached him in 588 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 4: a manner rather rude, vulgar words of anger, and his wife, 589 00:28:50,520 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 4: she overheard pretty Boy grabbed a log chain and the 590 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: deputy grabbed his gun. In the fight that followed, he 591 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 4: laid that deputy down. Then he took to the tree 592 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 4: and timber to live alive. Of shame. Every crime in 593 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 4: Oklahoma was added to his name. But a mini a 594 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 4: starving farmer. The same old story told how the outlaw 595 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 4: paid their mortgage and saved their little holes. Others tell 596 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 4: you about a stranger that comes to bag a meal. 597 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 4: Underneath his napkin left a thousand dollars bills. It was 598 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 4: in Oakland, a hord city. It was on a Christmas day. 599 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 4: There was a whole car load of groceries come with 600 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 4: a note to see. Well, you say that I'm an outlaw, 601 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 4: you say that I'm a thief. Here's a Christmas dinner 602 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 4: for the family's on relief. Yes, it is through this 603 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 4: world I've wondered. I've seen lots of money men. Some 604 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 4: will rob you with a six gun and some with 605 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 4: a fountain pen. And is through your life if you travel, Yes, 606 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 4: it's through your life you roll. You will never see 607 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 4: an outlaw drive family frumler hole. 608 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 2: I love the way that song ends. Yeah, and some 609 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 2: will rob you with a six gun and some with 610 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: a fountain pen. 611 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: That's a lot I hear all over the place. 612 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: It's it's a great fuck. I mean, this is one 613 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 2: of his more famous songs. Yeah, but it's a damn 614 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: good line. 615 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: I enjoyed that thorough. 616 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 2: I also like that. Look, I've seen a lot of outlaws. 617 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: I'm not saying I'm not defending the things they've done, 618 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: But it's not the outlaws I see forcing people to 619 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: be homeless, you know, that's the bands. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 620 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: So I disagree with my family about a lot, but 621 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: our shared pride in our cop killing ancestor is not 622 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: one of those things. 623 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 624 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 2: Anyway, as is often the case for people who come 625 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: to Los Angeles for the music industry, would he wound 626 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: up having to take his family back home to Texas 627 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: and then lee them again to move to New York 628 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: City in nineteen forty, chasing what had become for him 629 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: a dream of folk stardom. By this point, he'd become 630 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: a little bit of a legend, enough that the Library 631 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 2: of Congress had him sit down and record his dust 632 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: Bowl songs for posterity. He laid down tracks with Pete 633 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: Seeger and became an influential part of the urban folk 634 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: revival of the time. In a letter to Alan Lomax, 635 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: another influential pillar of the urban folk revival. He described 636 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: his thoughts on what folk music ought to be. And 637 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 2: I'm interested for your thoughts on this, Margaret Ken. A 638 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: folk song is what's wrong and how to fix it. 639 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: Or it could be who's hungry and where their mouth is, 640 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: or who's out of work and where the job is, 641 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: or who's broke and where the money is, or who's 642 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: carrying a gun and where the piece is. That's folklore, 643 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 2: and folks made it up because they've seen that the 644 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: politicians couldn't find nothing to fix or nobody to feed 645 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: or give a job a work. 646 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 3: That's good. That's It's so interesting to me because I 647 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 3: if you'd say folk music in different places, you mean 648 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: something so completely different. Right, American folk music is this 649 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 3: like Woody Guthrie kind of vibe thing, whereasn't almost any 650 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 3: other country. You're looking at stuff that's a little bit 651 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 3: more like technically interesting, like musically yes, I don't know. 652 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 3: I have a lot of thoughts about like folk and 653 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 3: folk instrumentation and music and all that, but I think 654 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 3: what he's describing is great and specifically that thing that 655 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 3: it's just like this is the stuff that people make up, 656 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 3: you know, it's not fancy. 657 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also how poor people without really any 658 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: other idea of how to have a voice, talk about 659 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, the kind of issues that 660 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: today we ascribe to, like the job of journalists, right, 661 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: who was hungry and where their mouth is? Who's carrying 662 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: a gun and where the piece is? 663 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: Right? 664 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally it's gossip. 665 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's gossip and its agitation. 666 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 6: Right. 667 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: You look at a lot of folk songs and a 668 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 2: lot of folks stories, and that's the first safe place 669 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: to attack the wealthy and the powerful, right, totally a 670 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 2: little bit, you know, totally oftentimes. You know, there's also 671 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: plenty of folk stuff that reinforces some of those things, 672 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: but it is where you see a lot of subversive stuff. 673 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean that's the thing about like populist and 674 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 3: popular stuff, as it can really go either way. Yeah, 675 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 3: but it's like yeah, still on some fundamental level. Interesting. 676 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, it's worth spending some time on just how 677 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 2: radically folk music changes, as you noted, in other countries, 678 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 2: it's very different. And part of why it's different in 679 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: the US is Woody Guthrie. He changes what folk music 680 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: is in the United States in a fundamental way. In 681 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 2: an article for The New Yorker, David Hajdou writes, quote, 682 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 2: folk music, including country, blues and other vernacular styles, was 683 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 2: supposed to be anonymous, a collective art passed along Worley, 684 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: from singer to singer, generation to generation, sometimes culture to culture. 685 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 2: From the vantage point of today, when kids with their 686 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: first guitar start writing songs before they learn to play 687 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: other tunes, it is difficult to process how exceptional it 688 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 2: was for a folk artist such as Woody Guthrie to 689 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 2: have created a vast repertoire of deeply idiosyncratic works. Many Tenpanaley, 690 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 2: Broadway and Hollywood songwriters of the thirties and earlier were 691 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 2: as skilled and prolific as Guthrie, but they were working 692 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 2: in a different vein writing to order for professional singers. 693 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: Guthrie brought the authorial imperative to vernacular music in America. 694 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: And I think that's also very interesting. 695 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 3: Just to keep going with all the weird family connections, 696 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 3: My great grandfather was a ten panale songwriter, and yeah, 697 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 3: he just wrote. He wrote music that he didn't own 698 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 3: the copyright to. He wrote the b sides for more 699 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 3: popular musicians. 700 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. I'm not surprised 701 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 2: that that's your family connection. Yeah. So, by this point 702 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 2: in time, Woody was what you would call a left 703 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 2: wing radical, although not again a card carrying one. He 704 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 2: played benefits for and was associated with the American Communist Party, 705 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: but he never got around adjoining and you'll find several 706 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 2: different theories as to why. The leading one that you'll 707 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 2: hear is that he liked his independence a little too 708 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: much to be a joiner. Now this sounds good, especially 709 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 2: to people like you and me, but it leaves out 710 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 2: a crucial fact, which is that wood He was his 711 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 2: era's equivalent of like a Tanky right totally. I mean, 712 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: it also leaves out the fact that he vocally took 713 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 2: claim to have a card like claimed to be a 714 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: member of the party right, and that it was the 715 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 2: best thing he'd done, which he hadn't. Again, he wasn't 716 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: immune to the worst impulses if the American left. During 717 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 2: this period. He had been enthusiastic about FDR early on, 718 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 2: but once the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was signed and the 719 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: USSR locked into a treaty with the Nazis, he attacked 720 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 2: Roosevelt as Quote Churchill's lapdog for his anti Nazi stance 721 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 2: in support of Great Britain during the early months of 722 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 2: the war. He argued that the developing World War was 723 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 2: a capitalist fraud. When Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union 724 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 2: invaded Poland together, Guthrie supported Stalin to an extent and 725 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 2: with such vociferousness that biographer Will Kaufman called it shocking. 726 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 2: In ramblin Man, Ed Craig goes into more detail about 727 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 2: a left wing anti war song he wrote called why 728 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: do You Stand There in the Rain, based on the 729 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 2: title of a New York Post article, and I'm going 730 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 2: to read from that section from ramblin Man here. Just 731 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 2: days before, some six thousand delegates of the American Youth 732 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 2: Congress had gathered in Washington to advocate jobs in peace. 733 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 2: At the invitation of First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt, the delegates 734 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: gathered in front of the south portico of the White 735 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 2: House and a cold drizzle to listen to a half 736 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: hour speech by the President. Fdr threw down the gauntlet, 737 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: aware that the Young Communist League had taken firm grip 738 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 2: on the once broadly based Popular Front ayc. The Soviet Union, 739 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 2: as everyone who has the courage to face the fact knows, 740 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 2: is run by a dictatorship, and as absolute as any 741 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 2: dictatorship in the world. It has allied itself with another dictatorship, 742 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 2: and has invaded a neighbor, Finland, so infinitesimally small that 743 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 2: it could do no conceivable harm to the Soviet Union, 744 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: a neighbor which seeks only to live in peace as 745 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: a democracy, and a liberal, forward looking democracy. At that 746 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: Roosevelt heard the booze and hisses through the cold rain. 747 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 2: People's World columnist, would he Gothrie knew where he stood? 748 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 2: He chided the president and song. Now the guns in 749 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 2: Europe roar as they have so oft before, and the 750 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 2: warlords play the same old game again. They butcher and 751 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 2: they kill. Uncle Sam foots the bill with his own 752 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 2: dear children, standing in the rain? Why do you stand 753 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 2: there in the rain? Why do you stand there in 754 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: the rain. He's a strange carrying on the White House 755 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: Capital lawn. Tell me, why do you stand there in 756 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: the rain? Then the President's voice did ring. Why this 757 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 2: is the silliest thing I have heard in all my 758 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: fifty eight years of life. But it just stands to reason, 759 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 2: as he passes another season, he'll be smarter by the 760 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 2: time he's fifty nine. So he's being like real shitty 761 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 2: to Roosevelt there, specifically about his support of England in 762 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 2: the war that is developing, and very defensive of the 763 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 2: USSR and invading a much smaller neighbor in invading Poland. 764 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 2: And it's one of those things where this is both 765 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 2: like horrifying given what we know happens, you have to 766 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 2: to extent while still saying he was wrong, look at 767 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 2: his level of knowledge and what had actually happened previously. 768 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 2: World War One was the touchstone here. And in World 769 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 2: War One the US did enable further butchering right, like 770 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 2: we were arming and profiting off of a hideous war 771 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 2: that we had no business sticking our noses into. Yeah, 772 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 2: and he's pissed about that. It's also there's a lot 773 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 2: less information about what was going on in the Soviet 774 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: you now, I will also say more than enough that 775 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 2: he should have known, right. 776 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the internationalist newspaper stuff was pretty Yeah. 777 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 3: Sometimes they were better at knowing what was going on 778 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 3: around the world than like a modern leftist today. But 779 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 3: he's holding the party line. They got told very specifically, like, 780 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 3: I mean, is the problem with the common tern in 781 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 3: the communist international, Yes, is that someone in the American 782 00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 3: Communist Party during this era is literally taking orders from Russia. Yeah, 783 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 3: And that's like one of the parts that we don't 784 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 3: want to talk about with the Red scare, because the 785 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 3: Red scare is bad, right, Yeah, But when they're like, oh, 786 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 3: these foreign agents acting under a foreign national they were. 787 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 2: There was literally like they were taking direct like propaganda, 788 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 2: direct orders like from Moscow, well not from Moscow, but 789 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 2: like from the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. And 790 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 2: they were really wrong on some things as a result 791 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 2: of that, because it turns out Hitler's not an ally 792 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 2: of international communism. It turns out now yeah, no, no, 793 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 2: that goes very badly, very quickly. Yeah, And ye know 794 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 2: what he had been had been describing himself as an 795 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 2: anti fascist at this point. But also I think he 796 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 2: probably would have said that like, well, you know, the 797 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 2: Communist Party knows its business if they think that's what 798 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: they've got to do to secure themselves with matters is 799 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 2: you know, the survival of communism, which you know, at 800 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 2: that point had weathered a number of attacks from the 801 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 2: international capitalist community, like during the Russian Civil War. And 802 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,919 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that because I think that's a good argument. 803 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 2: I'm saying I think that's he would have made. I'm 804 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 2: pretty firmly on the stance of Stalin Bat and the 805 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 2: Malotov Ribbentrop packed inexcusable. Yeah, But also I always emphasize 806 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 2: inexcusable on behalf of the Soviet leadership. You know, I've 807 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 2: got nothing but respect for the guys who wound up 808 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 2: dying by the millions to stop the Nazis, absolutely totally 809 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 2: and the right those guys, yeah, and ladies. So it 810 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 2: is impossible to look at this situation without saying commonalities 811 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 2: between more modern failures of the left to condemn dictators 812 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 2: seen as anti imperialist for very flawed reasons. I might 813 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 2: suggest that we also not forget at the time one 814 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 2: of the complicating factors here is how the US government 815 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 2: deals with what it considers communism and what things it 816 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 2: considers communism, right, because that's important too. What he had 817 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 2: an extensive FBI file, And in nineteen forty one, after 818 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 2: he joined the Merchant Marine, one of his shipmates was 819 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 2: cited as saying, would he quote followed the Communist Party 820 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 2: line and that they were very pro Russian and advocated 821 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 2: racial intermarriage. So again that is what the guy who 822 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 2: informs on him and the FBI considers evidence of his 823 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 2: Communist sympathies is he thinks that black people and white 824 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 2: people should be able to get married. So keep that 825 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:14,399 Speaker 2: in mind too. 826 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 3: The Communist Party was absolutely right about racial politics in 827 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 3: the United States, Yes, one hundred percent, And they were 828 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 3: one of the only non black organization, it was actually 829 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 3: heavily black, but one of the only not majority black 830 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 3: organizations that was right about this. 831 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And so like when we talk about like 832 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 2: criticizing him, don't leave out the fact that he's he's 833 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 2: also very much correct about this right totally. After the war, 834 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 2: he would be accused by the California State Senate's far 835 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 2: right Committee on un American Activities for being Joe Stalin's 836 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 2: California mouthpiece, which wasn't one point true, but also for 837 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 2: being a member of a factionalist sabotage group, which was absurd. 838 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 2: What he never sought or attempted to do anything but 839 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: sing songs and write articles for socialist papers. He was 840 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 2: not sabotaging anything. 841 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 3: I'm a feeling the reason he didn't get a card 842 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 3: is he was like, I don't want to be on 843 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 3: that list. 844 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe, yeah, I mean that may have been at 845 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 2: I think he also just might have been too lazy. 846 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't want to pay the thiees whatever. 847 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 2: He's an artist, he's not good at signing papers. 848 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 849 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 2: Marjorie Guthrie, who is his second wife, he starts a 850 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 2: family with her after he divorces his first wife Mary 851 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,959 Speaker 2: and moves to Coney Island, sums things up this way. 852 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 2: I don't know what happened prior to my time, but 853 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 2: from my time in Coney Island he was not welcomed 854 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 2: by the party because he didn't want to follow a 855 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 2: party line. You couldn't tell Woody what to think, and 856 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 2: so we were not members of the party in Coney Island. 857 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 2: And again I include that because she was his wife, 858 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 2: she knew him. But also that isn't entirely true, because 859 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,800 Speaker 2: he certainly followed the party line on some very fucked 860 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 2: up things. 861 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 3: But actually that's still like even when we talk about 862 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 3: the way that people have arcs, right, one of the 863 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 3: things I've read a lot. I've read a lot about 864 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 3: the UK Communists at this era where a lot of 865 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 3: the Communists left the Communist Party once they realized that 866 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,720 Speaker 3: they were just being mouthpieces for Stalin. 867 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, I mean, and again, there is 868 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 2: a degree to which the fact that there's so much 869 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 2: disinformation being pumped out about the Soviet and there's so 870 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 2: much bad like its certainly more reasonable then for someone 871 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 2: to doubt a lot of the official narratives coming out 872 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 2: and to doubt a lot of the information that makes 873 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 2: Stalin look bad from their position in the United States. 874 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 2: Right again, I think enough that a man is obviously intelligent, 875 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 2: as Woody should have been better informed. But he's not 876 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 2: the only one who makes this mistake and it's a 877 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 2: more understandable mistake then than it is now. As what 878 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 2: I'll say, that's without forgiving it, you know. So, yeah, however, 879 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 2: you want to mark this down morally for Woody, his 880 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 2: U the US shouldn't be getting into this capitalist war. 881 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 2: They're all cooking this World War two thing up. That 882 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 2: attitude ends for Woody. On June twenty second, nineteen forty one, 883 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 2: when Nazi Germany invades the Soviet Union, this is Operation Barbarossa. 884 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,319 Speaker 2: Would he ran to his friend Pete Seeger after this 885 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 2: like breaks and told him, well, I guess we're not 886 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 2: going to be singing any more of them peace songs. 887 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 2: Woody was not the only man forced to change his 888 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 2: tune rapidly due to world events. 889 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 3: Winston Churchill anyway, yeah, yeah, well done, well done. 890 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 2: Winston Churchill, who was one of the world's loudest anti communists, 891 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 2: was forced by sheer necessity to make temporary amends and 892 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 2: even express support for the cause of Soviet soldiers. When 893 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 2: Woody heard this, he told a friend Churchill's flip flopped. 894 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 2: We got a flip flop too. You know who doesn't 895 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 2: flip flop though, Margaret. 896 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 3: The consistency with which our sponsors, yes, high quality goods 897 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 3: and services. 898 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. Our sponsors have never once changed 899 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 2: their opinion, which is why today, tomorrow and forever they 900 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 2: advise you to vote Millard Fillmore for president. We're back. 901 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 2: Our sponsors are all old hair tonics from the eighteen hundreds. Anyway, 902 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,239 Speaker 2: vote Fillmore. Much of the Woody that we know, the 903 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 2: famous Woody Guthrie. You know, you brought up as soon 904 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 2: as I said what do you know of him? That 905 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 2: the picture of him with a guitar, that has a 906 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 2: this machine kills fascist sticker slapped across it. 907 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 908 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 2: By the way, that sticker was like put out by 909 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 2: the US government. 910 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 3: Huh that makes sense. 911 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a proper game, strange bedfilm and piece 912 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 2: of prop. There were a lot of machines we were 913 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 2: using to kill fascists, perfectly and reasonable to put some 914 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 2: stickers on. 915 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 3: Wait did they Oh that was like a the government 916 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 3: was putting that on machines to raise morale. And he 917 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 3: took one of those and was like, I'm putting this 918 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 3: on my guitar. 919 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,319 Speaker 2: I think it's something like that. I read it in 920 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 2: that article and I think La Weekly by the fellow 921 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 2: who was writing about like Woody's history with racism, was 922 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 2: like this, you know, this thing was like a product 923 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 2: of the government that he has. 924 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 3: That makes so much sense. I never quite understood that. 925 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 3: I always really liked though, when people carve into their ak's, 926 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 3: wouldn't stock this machine makes folk music? 927 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been some good ones of that coming out 928 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 2: of Syria. 929 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 930 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 2: So he changes his opinion very rapidly, and once the 931 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 2: Nazis invade the USSR, he starts getting much more patriotic. 932 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 2: And again he had been making anti Nazi music and 933 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 2: been anti Nazi prior to this. And if you're saying, well, 934 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 2: that's incoherent for him to be against the war, and 935 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 2: you know whatnot, Yes, lots of people have incoherent politics, 936 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 2: but his politics get a lot more cohesive after Operation Barbarossa. 937 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 2: An article for Oklahoma History dot Org notes in New York, 938 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 2: he appeared on numerous popular radio shows before joining the 939 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 2: Merchant Marines with Cisco Houston. During World War Two, Guthrie 940 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 2: was on three torpedoed ships and the day Germany surrendered, 941 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,800 Speaker 2: he was drafted into the US Army. 942 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 3: Like he was on ships that were hit by torpedes three. 943 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 2: Is and the Merchant Marine is effectively a part of 944 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 2: the military during a war. Right, he is a combat veteran. Yeah, 945 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 2: you know, like that's like he's on three ships that 946 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 2: get hit. 947 00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 948 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 2: Now he's not in the army very long. It basically 949 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,480 Speaker 2: immediately gets out because the war ends. But yeah, he 950 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 2: does like his bit, you know, he is not when 951 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 2: we play songs of his where he's talking about wanting 952 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 2: to fight the fascists, he goes and does it. You know, 953 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 2: he is doing an important, dangerous job where he gets 954 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 2: shot at so you cannot. Yeah, he's very willing to 955 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 2: put his skin in the game. 956 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, one blown up ship. If you quit after one 957 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,399 Speaker 3: blown up ship, no one's mad you did. 958 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 2: Nobody will call you a coward. Yeah, I don't know that. Yeah. 959 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 2: And so, from late nineteen forty one to the end 960 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 2: of the war, Woody Guthrie wrote several iconic anti fascist anthems, 961 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 2: including Ruben James, about a US destroyer that was torpedoed 962 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 2: and sunk by the Nazis in nineteen forty one. As 963 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 2: you might expect from Woody and the kind of songs 964 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 2: he wrote, this song focused on the lives and deaths 965 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 2: of normal men at war. The refrain went, tell me 966 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 2: what was their names? Tell me what was their names? 967 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 2: Did you have a friend on that? Good Ruben James. 968 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 2: It's a good song. But if you want my personal 969 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 2: favorite war years Woody Guthrie song, nothing beats this particular banger, 970 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,760 Speaker 2: soph He's gonna put it up now for the very boil. 971 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,720 Speaker 4: We'll show these fascist what a couple of hill billies 972 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 4: can do. Wow. 973 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 6: Well, I'm gonna tell you, fascist, you may be surprised 974 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 6: people in this world are getting organized. 975 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 4: You're bound to lose you Fascist, Found. 976 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:40,359 Speaker 5: To lose WHOA all you Fascist? Last, all you Fascist? Yes, 977 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 5: all fascist? Bound you fascist. There's people of every nation marchings. 978 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 6: Find the side marching across the hills where a many 979 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 6: of fascists died. 980 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,840 Speaker 4: You're bound to lose you Fascist. Bound to. 981 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 7: Ah banger music. 982 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:38,560 Speaker 3: It's so good. 983 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 2: It's a real banger. 984 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:41,320 Speaker 1: I enjoyed that immensely. 985 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my favorites. So near the end of 986 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,240 Speaker 2: Woody's wartime experiences, he would record the first official version 987 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,360 Speaker 2: of a song that he'd been working on since nineteen 988 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,560 Speaker 2: forty This Land Is Your Land, which would go on 989 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 2: to be undoubtedly his most famous work of music. It 990 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,759 Speaker 2: is definitely the one Woody Guthrie song everyone's fucking heard like. 991 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,560 Speaker 2: You can't get through school without hearing this Land is 992 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:03,080 Speaker 2: Your Land. 993 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:04,640 Speaker 3: So easily recuperated. 994 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 2: Yes, And in the decades since nineteen forty four, it's 995 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 2: also been criticized for what many people interpret as an 996 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 2: air of imperialism and support for manifest destiny, which is 997 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,759 Speaker 2: definitely present in the version of the song that is 998 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,320 Speaker 2: commonly sung. Given this, I think it's interesting to actually 999 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,480 Speaker 2: look into why wood he wrote the song and what 1000 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 2: its original lyrics were This Land is Your Land was 1001 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,800 Speaker 2: initially something of a folk music dis track. It was 1002 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 2: a response to Irving Berlin's God Bless America. This is 1003 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,760 Speaker 2: a song Berlin wrote in nineteen eighteen, after being drafted 1004 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 2: and re released in nineteen forty one, is something of 1005 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,120 Speaker 2: a cash grap The lyrics if you aren't familiar, go 1006 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,800 Speaker 2: like this, God bless America, Land that I love, Stand 1007 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 2: beside her and guide her through the night with a 1008 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 2: light from above. Woody fucking hated this song, and it's 1009 00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,719 Speaker 2: good he did because it's a fucking dogshit song. He 1010 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 2: considered it far too sweet, a hymn for a nation 1011 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,400 Speaker 2: that had just sent millions of its citizen and do 1012 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 2: a depression. This Land is Your Land was meant to 1013 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,319 Speaker 2: be a retort discussing the real America that Irving had 1014 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,400 Speaker 2: tried to conceal. The original title was God Bless America 1015 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 2: for Me. Joe Riley writes of this first version of 1016 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 2: the song, quote, it was more of a question than affirmation. 1017 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,800 Speaker 2: In fact, it was a sarcastic retort. Woody later changed 1018 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,600 Speaker 2: the refrain to this land was made for you and me, 1019 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 2: and the song to this Land is Your Land the 1020 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 2: verses he ultimately emitted from the final draft of the 1021 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,920 Speaker 2: song include this banger there was a big high wall 1022 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 2: there that tried to stop me. The sign was painted 1023 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,040 Speaker 2: said private property, but on the backside it didn't say nothing. 1024 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 2: This land was made for you and me, and the 1025 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 2: squares of the city and the shadow of the steeple 1026 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 2: near the relief office. I see my people, and some 1027 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,879 Speaker 2: are a grumblin and some are wondering if this land 1028 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 2: still made for you and me. And that's a banger 1029 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 2: that's very much not an imperialist song. That's more him 1030 00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 2: talking about like this, the people that this country to 1031 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 2: be four are the ones being harmed by the system 1032 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 2: that governs it, right, Like that's the original point of 1033 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,279 Speaker 2: the song, that said, this is not a case of 1034 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 2: it being recuperated by someone else who changes the lyrics 1035 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,359 Speaker 2: because they'd think that they can tweak it. They don't 1036 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,319 Speaker 2: like Woody's original version. Woody changes it right, and he 1037 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,240 Speaker 2: changes it. He removes that verse about the relief office 1038 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,240 Speaker 2: because late in the war he decided it was too pessimistic, 1039 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 2: and he replaces it with lines like from the redwood 1040 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,759 Speaker 2: forest to the Gulf stream waters, this land was made 1041 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 2: for you and me, which is not all that different 1042 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 2: from like some of the stuff Irving had been. Totally right, 1043 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,000 Speaker 2: The song becomes a massive hit. It is practically a 1044 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 2: new national anthem, and Woody does not initially bother to 1045 00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,480 Speaker 2: copyright it because this is you know, that's not uncommon 1046 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 2: for him, right, He generally neglected to do that. Alas 1047 00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,839 Speaker 2: for Woody, the post war optimism faded quickly, I mean, 1048 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,880 Speaker 2: and it so the first horrible thing that happens to 1049 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,800 Speaker 2: Woody after the war, because things go downhill for him quickly. 1050 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,960 Speaker 2: In February of nineteen four, there is an electrical fire 1051 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,800 Speaker 2: in his home and his little girl, Kathy Ann dies. 1052 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,000 Speaker 2: Oh god, he has bad luck with fire, Like I said, 1053 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,120 Speaker 2: he a horrible luck with fire. Now he and Marjorie 1054 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 2: have three other kids. But yeah, like that's obviously really 1055 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 2: fucks him up. And like that same year forty seven, 1056 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,920 Speaker 2: and then in forty eight he gets repeatedly attacked as 1057 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 2: a communist, both in the State Committee of un American 1058 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,840 Speaker 2: Activities in California and in the House of Representatives Committee 1059 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,279 Speaker 2: on American Activities. Now they were attacking him for being 1060 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,320 Speaker 2: a communist, and he was, but he was not an American. 1061 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,319 Speaker 2: No one was more American than Wood. He fucking Guthrie right. 1062 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,959 Speaker 2: He suffers as a result of this, he gets blacklisted. 1063 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:40,960 Speaker 2: He had written an autobiographical novel at this point called 1064 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 2: Bound for Glory that had been set to be turned 1065 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,880 Speaker 2: into a major Hollywood production, but that deal and others 1066 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,920 Speaker 2: like it, fell apart as unions were forced to take 1067 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,399 Speaker 2: anti communist stances in this new, more paranoid era. Wood 1068 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,759 Speaker 2: he stopped getting hired to play the events that had 1069 00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 2: largely supplemented his income, rather than fold as many did 1070 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,799 Speaker 2: ounce the things that he believed would. He spoke out 1071 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,520 Speaker 2: constantly against j Edgar Hoover, writing at one point quote 1072 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,480 Speaker 2: the roaches crawl across my page tonight and make a 1073 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,120 Speaker 2: noise that makes more sense than all that. Hoover writes, 1074 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 2: He's a good bar. He became less dogmatic on the 1075 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,400 Speaker 2: Moscow line as well, although he never stops being a communist. 1076 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,359 Speaker 2: He starts writing that his goal was to quote get 1077 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,279 Speaker 2: this thing called socialism nailed and hammered up just as 1078 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 2: quickly as he can, and praises Eugene V. Debs, former 1079 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,960 Speaker 2: chairman of the Socialist Party, as quote a peer cross 1080 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,560 Speaker 2: between Jesus Christ and Abe Lincoln, which again is not 1081 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,280 Speaker 2: really something that the Moscow Party once, you say. Despite 1082 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 2: the consequences to his career, he continues to seek and 1083 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,920 Speaker 2: sing his mind. Quote. Fascism is being afraid. Fascism is 1084 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,160 Speaker 2: fear bossing you. Fascism is worse than all of these things. 1085 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,359 Speaker 2: And fascism is more closer to you than I can 1086 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,719 Speaker 2: make you. See, I'm trying to wake you up and 1087 00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,279 Speaker 2: tell you that you're sleeping with something ten times more 1088 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,920 Speaker 2: dangerous thing and a poison fang snake in your bed. 1089 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,600 Speaker 2: If fascism does come, and if it does kill me, 1090 00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,000 Speaker 2: well then you add me alone onto the hundreds of 1091 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,360 Speaker 2: millions which fascism has already dusted under. And it don't 1092 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:11,600 Speaker 2: scare me so very much. 1093 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:13,320 Speaker 3: That rules. 1094 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, like good line. 1095 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,600 Speaker 3: All right, it might kill me, it's killed millions of 1096 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,240 Speaker 3: people before, so it will be in good company. 1097 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:21,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. 1098 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's hard. I like that. 1099 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,719 Speaker 2: Yep, that's hard. And this is, unfortunately, Margaret, where the 1100 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:29,959 Speaker 2: story gets awkward again. 1101 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,920 Speaker 3: No, is he gonna heel turn again? He keeps dancing. 1102 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,920 Speaker 2: It's more complicated than a heel turn. He's about to 1103 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 2: do a bad thing. There's a mitigating factor that's pretty significant. Okay, okay, 1104 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 2: but it's a pretty bad thing. Woody is at this 1105 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 2: point and always on the verge of being broke, but 1106 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,759 Speaker 2: also a famous and influential musician. And we know what 1107 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,600 Speaker 2: comes with that, right, which is the temptation to be 1108 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:54,399 Speaker 2: a sex pest. 1109 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:55,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1110 00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:59,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know Woody does not commit like rape, 1111 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 2: but he does sexually harass someone very badly. And this 1112 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,239 Speaker 2: is a very ugly story. The gist of it is 1113 00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,239 Speaker 2: that things with his second wife, Marjorie go downhill as 1114 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,120 Speaker 2: his career does. She is the family money maker. She 1115 00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 2: actually makes a very good living teaching dancing. She's an 1116 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 2: extremely accomplished dancer, and his career is not doing well. 1117 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,480 Speaker 2: This leads to fighting, and Woody eventually moves out in 1118 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,680 Speaker 2: Rinse a room for himself. He starts writing letters to 1119 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 2: his old music partner, Lefty Loo's sister. She is twenty 1120 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,880 Speaker 2: eight years old he is thirty six, so they're not 1121 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,960 Speaker 2: like crazy far apart. But the bigger issue is she 1122 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,120 Speaker 2: had never insinuated that she was into him, right, he 1123 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,760 Speaker 2: is just writing her letters about wanting to fuck her 1124 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,400 Speaker 2: apropos of nothing. 1125 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:41,360 Speaker 3: Oh fuck uh huh. 1126 00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:43,880 Speaker 2: Now, wood he had just kind of assumed that because 1127 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 2: she like they knew each other, right, they were like friendly, 1128 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,480 Speaker 2: But she gets divorced, and he just kind of assumes, 1129 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,280 Speaker 2: while I'm getting divorced too, that must mean she wants 1130 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,800 Speaker 2: to fuck, right, and his letters to her take on 1131 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,640 Speaker 2: an air of obsession. He writes at least twelve long 1132 00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,000 Speaker 2: letters suggesting they move out together, hit the road, and 1133 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 2: start having sex. These letters include long, rambling descriptions of 1134 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,840 Speaker 2: the kinds of sex, what he wanted to have, and more. 1135 00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,520 Speaker 2: And I'm going to quote from ramblin Man here. Into 1136 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,840 Speaker 2: the envelopes Guthrie stuffed pages torn from New York's tabloids 1137 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 2: with muddy magenta circle slathered around stories of grisly murders. 1138 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,479 Speaker 2: The packets, sometimes two or three a week, frightened Mary 1139 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,760 Speaker 2: Ruth by their intensity, the sexual proposals, and the suggestion 1140 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,400 Speaker 2: of violence. She drove to Los Angeles to show them 1141 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 2: to her sister, who knew Guthrie best of all. You 1142 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,360 Speaker 2: have no idea how horrible it was, her older sister, 1143 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,680 Speaker 2: Maxine said. She in turn called the police. Now the 1144 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,040 Speaker 2: police get involved because they think Woody might be a 1145 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,520 Speaker 2: budding serial killer, and given the kind of stuff he's 1146 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 2: sending not an unreasonable thing to be afraid of, and 1147 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,280 Speaker 2: given the fact that the FEDS are hounding him, I 1148 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 2: get why Woody is like, this is them going after 1149 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,720 Speaker 2: me for my politics, but it really isn't. Yeah, he's 1150 00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:57,360 Speaker 2: writing very upsetting things. Now there's another part to this 1151 00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,760 Speaker 2: story which does not make the things he's writing less 1152 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 2: fuck up or upsetting. But he is losing his mind. Okay, 1153 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:06,520 Speaker 2: he is losing his mind in a degree that is 1154 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,960 Speaker 2: very soon to be clinically diagnosed. Right in episode one, 1155 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,560 Speaker 2: I mentioned that Woody's mother went insane when he was 1156 00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,160 Speaker 2: quite young and was institutionalized. 1157 00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:16,400 Speaker 4: Right. 1158 00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 2: This traumatized him and at the time we didn't have 1159 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 2: an explanation for what she was going for. They just 1160 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 2: said madness. Right, we now know what she had because 1161 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,080 Speaker 2: Woody has it, and it's diagnosable by the time he 1162 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,720 Speaker 2: gets it, and it's called Huntington's disease. Yeah, his mom 1163 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,880 Speaker 2: and Woody gets it, and he is starting to suffer 1164 00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,640 Speaker 2: the effects of Huntington's by the late forties. This is 1165 00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:43,360 Speaker 2: a neurodegenerative disorder that Huntington's Disease News describes as characterized 1166 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:47,960 Speaker 2: by uncontrolled movements, loss of cognitive ability and psychiatric problems. 1167 00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:52,439 Speaker 2: The middle stages of the illness are associated with psychosis. 1168 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,800 Speaker 2: Some patients experienced delusions which they tend to be convinced 1169 00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 2: are accurate. And it also comes with these like sort 1170 00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,560 Speaker 2: of obsessive delusions, right, which might explain the whole him 1171 01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,560 Speaker 2: thinking that this was something that was reciprocated. 1172 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,640 Speaker 3: Right, So this isn't a heel turn. This is just 1173 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:07,440 Speaker 3: a degeneration. 1174 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,439 Speaker 2: This is just a this is a very tragic degeneration, right, 1175 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,600 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know how again you want to 1176 01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:15,840 Speaker 2: parse it up morally, but like he is diagnosed, like 1177 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:17,920 Speaker 2: he is losing his mind. He is going to spend 1178 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,840 Speaker 2: most of the rest of his life in an institution. 1179 01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,000 Speaker 2: So this is not just a case of like a 1180 01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,800 Speaker 2: powerful man in music being a sex pest, right, totally 1181 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,840 Speaker 2: a man who was not like this before so far 1182 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:34,360 Speaker 2: as we know, absolutely declining in becoming like increasingly delusional. 1183 01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,320 Speaker 3: And like Famous Man's sex pesting is fans say, famous 1184 01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,280 Speaker 3: Man's sex pestiing is like or everyone in your orbit 1185 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,360 Speaker 3: you just assume they want to fuck you, which I 1186 01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,480 Speaker 3: guess he's like doing to this. No, Yeah, the degeneration thing, 1187 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:46,280 Speaker 3: that just makes sense. 1188 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,560 Speaker 2: It's just yeah, he'd probably always had a crush on her, 1189 01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,560 Speaker 2: and then this, like he becomes convinced that there is 1190 01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,560 Speaker 2: something going on there that there's not right. 1191 01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 3: But the fact that it was out of the blue 1192 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 3: to her means that he probably kept his fucking mouth 1193 01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:58,760 Speaker 3: shut about the fact that he a crush on her. 1194 01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,520 Speaker 2: One would assume, right, So it's not great. He has 1195 01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,200 Speaker 2: ultimately charged in nineteen forty nine with sending him scene 1196 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,160 Speaker 2: material through the mail. He avoids prison time, but is 1197 01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,920 Speaker 2: sentenced to therapy, and he and his therapist do not 1198 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,640 Speaker 2: have a good relationship. His therapist does not like him, 1199 01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,640 Speaker 2: but he's not diagnosed with anything quite yet, so his 1200 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:18,240 Speaker 2: therapist is just like, he's kind of an asshole, which 1201 01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,600 Speaker 2: I can't blame the therapist for because he's being an 1202 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,160 Speaker 2: asshole if you don't know the mitigating factor of the 1203 01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,000 Speaker 2: family mental illness that destroyed his mother and is destroying 1204 01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,680 Speaker 2: him Wood. He eventually refuses court mandated therapy, and his 1205 01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,800 Speaker 2: lawyer manages to narrowly get him out of a six 1206 01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,720 Speaker 2: month sentence. His lawyer who is at one of his shipmates. Right, 1207 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,040 Speaker 2: he and this guy are torpedo together, and this lawyer, 1208 01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:39,680 Speaker 2: who's a very good friend who was like, I'm not 1209 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,720 Speaker 2: going to let my war buddy go to a fucking jail. Wood, 1210 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,760 Speaker 2: he was mostly angry when his sentence gets like cut off. 1211 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,000 Speaker 2: He's kind of pissed because he had been planning a 1212 01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,680 Speaker 2: Christmas Eve show for the inmates that he doesn't get 1213 01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,120 Speaker 2: to do now, So there's still that piece of him 1214 01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:54,560 Speaker 2: in there. 1215 01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:54,880 Speaker 4: Right. 1216 01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,920 Speaker 2: By the mid nineteen fifties, Wood, he was disabled with 1217 01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,440 Speaker 2: Huntington's badly enough that his second wife, Marjorie, who again 1218 01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,600 Speaker 2: he has separated from, had to take charge of his affairs. 1219 01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,520 Speaker 2: And it does say something that this person who he 1220 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:11,520 Speaker 2: was not nice to at the end, had enough affection 1221 01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,120 Speaker 2: for him still that she makes sure he's taken care of, right, 1222 01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,200 Speaker 2: which included she registers a copyright for this Land is 1223 01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:19,840 Speaker 2: Your Land for the first time, right, and for a 1224 01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,520 Speaker 2: number of his other songs. And she's doing that because like, 1225 01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,840 Speaker 2: we're going to need some way of taking care of him, 1226 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:27,840 Speaker 2: you know, And this makes sense, right. One of the 1227 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,360 Speaker 2: fun side effects of this is that his family is 1228 01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,840 Speaker 2: going to wind up in a lawsuit with Donald Trump 1229 01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,439 Speaker 2: about this Land is Your Land because Trump kept trying 1230 01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,120 Speaker 2: to play it. It is now in the public domain 1231 01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,400 Speaker 2: but it wasn't for a while. So that same year, 1232 01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,600 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six, he was involuntarily committed to Greystone Park, 1233 01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,080 Speaker 2: a New Jersey mental institution. Over the next five years, 1234 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,920 Speaker 2: he lost the ability to play music or even to type. 1235 01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,120 Speaker 2: But and again this really says something about the amount 1236 01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:57,640 Speaker 2: of love there was still for him. He is not 1237 01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:01,480 Speaker 2: cut off or alone. His family visits him regularly. They 1238 01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,600 Speaker 2: take him out and he stays with them for weekends 1239 01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,640 Speaker 2: and holidays. He's taken out and you know, taken to 1240 01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,480 Speaker 2: shows and trips by his friends and by fellow artists. 1241 01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,200 Speaker 2: Bob Dylan, who at this point is not particularly famous, 1242 01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,240 Speaker 2: starts visiting Woody at the asylum in nineteen sixty one, 1243 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,120 Speaker 2: and Dylan starts working with other performers over the sixties. 1244 01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:22,800 Speaker 2: They like, they play shows. They take Woody to some 1245 01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:24,800 Speaker 2: of these shows where they're playing his music to this 1246 01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:29,560 Speaker 2: new generation of newly radicalized Americans. And Woody lives long 1247 01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,880 Speaker 2: enough to see his music honored and it's like sold 1248 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,200 Speaker 2: out shows by some of the you know, by fucking 1249 01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,320 Speaker 2: Bob Dylan, some of the most beloved up and coming 1250 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,400 Speaker 2: musicians of the sixties. So he does go out knowing 1251 01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,520 Speaker 2: that his music doesn't just live on, but is like 1252 01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,560 Speaker 2: influenced this new generation of people who are going to 1253 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:50,680 Speaker 2: become incredibly famous and influential musicians in their own right, which, 1254 01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:52,960 Speaker 2: as far as being an artist goes, is about as 1255 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:53,920 Speaker 2: much as you can hope for. 1256 01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:54,920 Speaker 3: Totally. 1257 01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially for. 1258 01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,200 Speaker 3: Someone who's at the kind of beginning, not the very 1259 01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:02,520 Speaker 3: beginning of record music, but like pretty close to it. 1260 01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:02,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1261 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:03,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1262 01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,600 Speaker 2: He dies in October of nineteen sixty seven. At that 1263 01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,240 Speaker 2: point he is unable to communicate by any means besides 1264 01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,320 Speaker 2: pointing at cards that said yes or no. But he 1265 01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:16,840 Speaker 2: left behind again, a pretty incredible legacy, two novels, hundreds 1266 01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:19,520 Speaker 2: of articles, more than a thousand songs and poems, five 1267 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,680 Speaker 2: hundred illustrations, and a central role in the folk music 1268 01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:26,840 Speaker 2: revival that changed American music forever. We've listened to a 1269 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:29,640 Speaker 2: lot of Woody Guthrie's music in these episodes, and while 1270 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,640 Speaker 2: I do hope you all take the opportunity to listen 1271 01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:33,960 Speaker 2: to more, I want to leave you with a quote 1272 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,520 Speaker 2: of his that I think is quite relevant for our times, 1273 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,960 Speaker 2: which Ed Cray picked out to open his two thousand 1274 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,280 Speaker 2: and eight biography of the Man, about all a human 1275 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,160 Speaker 2: being is anyway, is just a hoping machine, and I 1276 01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,280 Speaker 2: like that. I also like this quote from Bob Dylan, 1277 01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 2: who was asked in nineteen sixty three to s up 1278 01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,600 Speaker 2: his feelings on Woody Guthrie and twenty five words for 1279 01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,560 Speaker 2: a book on the man. As history dot Com notes, 1280 01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,880 Speaker 2: Dylan quote responded instead with one hundred and ninety four 1281 01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 2: line poem called Thoughts on Woody Guthrie, which took the 1282 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:08,680 Speaker 2: the eternal human search for hope and where do you 1283 01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,600 Speaker 2: look for this hope you're seeking? Dylan asks in the poem, 1284 01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,720 Speaker 2: before proceeding to a kind of answer. You can either 1285 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:16,720 Speaker 2: go to the church of your choice, or you can 1286 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,800 Speaker 2: go to a Brooklyn State Hospital. You'll find God in 1287 01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,600 Speaker 2: the church of your choice. You'll find Woody Guthrie in 1288 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:23,960 Speaker 2: Brooklyn State Hospital. 1289 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:26,120 Speaker 3: Cool. 1290 01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, that's Woody Guthrie. Yeah. 1291 01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,920 Speaker 3: I knew so little about him. I know about some 1292 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,760 Speaker 3: of his music and it's been super influential. But that's awesome. 1293 01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,880 Speaker 2: I'm yeah, it was one of those like again, it's 1294 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:47,040 Speaker 2: the messy story, but yeah, I see it was better 1295 01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:47,800 Speaker 2: I would have guessed. 1296 01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, great pick for the non bastard Holiday episode. 1297 01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:54,600 Speaker 2: A relevant kind of guy to know about for the 1298 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:56,120 Speaker 2: kind of times we're heading into. 1299 01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and speaking of somebody people should know about, I 1300 01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:06,160 Speaker 1: adopted a second dog. Hello, did This is Anderson's sister Truman. 1301 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,200 Speaker 1: She's learning how to be a dog. But she's a 1302 01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:11,800 Speaker 1: good girl. 1303 01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:14,880 Speaker 3: She's already a good podcast dog, which is a hard 1304 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:17,200 Speaker 3: level for a job. 1305 01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:24,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, especially a hurting dog. Yeah, yeah, you're a good girl. Yeah. 1306 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:24,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1307 01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,000 Speaker 1: I guess just to say happy holidays everyone. 1308 01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:33,400 Speaker 2: Happy holiday, Yes, happy holidays. And I don't know, listen 1309 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:34,480 Speaker 2: to some Woody Guthrie. 1310 01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:35,960 Speaker 7: Yeah. 1311 01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:37,040 Speaker 1: We'll be back in the new. 1312 01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:38,200 Speaker 3: Year or the first week of the year. 1313 01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,000 Speaker 1: We'll have a couple of Q and A episodes. 1314 01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,000 Speaker 2: We'll have some cues, we'll answer some a's. It will 1315 01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:44,800 Speaker 2: be a good time. 1316 01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,680 Speaker 1: Any final thoughts, Magpie, anything you want to. 1317 01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,120 Speaker 3: Plug well, if you want Christmas. Every week I have 1318 01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,000 Speaker 3: a podcast called Cool People Did Cool Stuff, where I 1319 01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:56,520 Speaker 3: talk about cool people did cool stuff. And then either 1320 01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,200 Speaker 3: this week or next week, depending on when everything gets released. 1321 01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:01,800 Speaker 3: I also we'll be covering the history of the song 1322 01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:06,920 Speaker 3: Bella Chow because I got excited by this recording last 1323 01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,720 Speaker 3: week of part one and I thought I'm gonna do 1324 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:10,600 Speaker 3: a song too. 1325 01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:15,840 Speaker 1: It will be the week after releasing that. 1326 01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,560 Speaker 3: So next Monday you all can hear me talk about 1327 01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:23,080 Speaker 3: the history of Bella chow awesome, all right, Harry, Christmas 1328 01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:26,120 Speaker 3: and or whatever you want to have, happy happy, Well. 1329 01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,880 Speaker 1: That'll do it that, I'll do it first twenty for 1330 01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:30,200 Speaker 1: you're twenty twenty four. 1331 01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,880 Speaker 2: Wow twenty four? Yeah, yeah, more or less, more. 1332 01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:39,160 Speaker 1: Or less all right, yeah, be well, bye bye. Behind 1333 01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:41,960 Speaker 1: the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For 1334 01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:45,160 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 1335 01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,560 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 1336 01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:51,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the 1337 01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,880 Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday 1338 01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,640 Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash 1339 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,080 Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards