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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Delphi murder suspect is claiming these two little girls, Abby

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Speaker 2: and Libby, ages thirteen and fourteen, were murdered by a

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Speaker 2: pagan cult. This as dreams of evidence is pouring from

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Speaker 2: the witness stand. But what will be allowed in front

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Speaker 2: of a jury? I'm Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Who murdered Abigail and Liberty? A suspect is called on

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Speaker 1: video with his menacing instructions down the hill.

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Speaker 2: So much happening in a court of law, But what

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Speaker 2: will the jury be allowed to hear?

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Speaker 1: Something really doesn't seem.

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Speaker 2: Right that we know all of this evidence, but the

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Speaker 2: jury may never know it.

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Speaker 3: For instance, testimony during the hearings confirmed several details about

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Speaker 3: the crime scene. Both Abby and Libby's throats are cut

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Speaker 3: and the girl's bodies are covered with branches. Libby is

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Speaker 3: found completely nude, and Abby is dressed in both hers

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Speaker 3: and some of Libby's clothing. Aside from the neck area,

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Speaker 3: the clothing found on Abby is mostly clean.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm supposed to believe a pagan cult has as

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Speaker 2: responsibility for the brutal murders of two little girls. One

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Speaker 2: I believe naked, the other one had on the other's clothing.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, let's get the facts straight.

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Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we know right now and living through the entire

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Speaker 2: probative hearing, which means evidence pouring from the witness stand

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Speaker 2: Susan Hendrick's well known investigative reporter, journalist and author of

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Speaker 2: Down the Hill, My Descent into the double Murder in Delphi. Susan,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. There's so much happening.

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Speaker 2: I hate to get bogged down in the whole pagan

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Speaker 2: cult did it. But the reality is the defense is

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Speaker 2: naming actual names as to who they believe are the

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Speaker 2: real murderers connected to this pagan cult.

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Speaker 1: What about it?

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Speaker 4: I believe Nancy, and it's great to be on that.

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Speaker 4: The defense has always tried to establish that that is

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Speaker 4: who they believed killed Abby and libbyan Odus cult. So

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Speaker 4: it was mentioned in that Frank's hearing. It disguised in

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Speaker 4: my opinion, as of Frank's hearing, but really to put

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Speaker 4: out there what they believed happened on that day in

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Speaker 4: twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: You're like a locomotive right now, you're steaming for But

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Speaker 2: you're carrying.

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Speaker 1: A payload so much evidence.

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Speaker 2: You know, I taught English briefly while I was waiting

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Speaker 2: to get into law school.

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Speaker 1: I need to dissect, you know, like you.

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Speaker 2: Put the verb here and the adjective here, and you

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Speaker 2: just said a lot and we're like ten seconds into

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Speaker 2: our program.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, So, first of all, you said a frank's hearing.

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Speaker 2: Now, in every jurisdiction, unless you're talking about federal law,

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Speaker 2: states ascribe a different name to their hearing. Now, in

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Speaker 2: this particular jurisdiction, isn't a frank hearing a claim that

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Speaker 2: law enforcement lied in some aspect, be it the problem

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Speaker 2: will cause search warrant or resta warrant, or some other

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Speaker 2: aspect of the case.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that what a frank's hearing is in that jurisdiction?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, Nancy, I'm glad you stopped me because there is

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Speaker 4: so much information here. I'm used to just saying it

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Speaker 4: the Frank's hearing. What they were alleging was that Sheriff

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Speaker 4: Liggett lied in what he thought was at Richard Allen's

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Speaker 4: home in order to get that search warrant. So the

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Speaker 4: attorneys are trying to throw.

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Speaker 2: Out Wait, wait, wait, what search warrant? There's so many.

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Speaker 2: So the defense is claiming we have to have a

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Speaker 2: Frank's hearing because hey, Sheriff Liggett. Now, okay, I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying the sheriff did or did not lie, but you're

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Speaker 2: also say to hey, with that, that was just a

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Speaker 2: pretense to try to get the defense theory out there. Okay,

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Speaker 2: what are they claiming Liggot lied about.

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Speaker 4: Saying that he specifically had more evidence than he did.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't really clear why they thought he was lying.

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Speaker 4: What they did say was, hey, we need a hearing,

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Speaker 4: we want it tossed out. But Nancy, you.

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Speaker 2: Have sat through days and days of evidence and they

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Speaker 2: never made it clear what Leggott lied about the sheriff.

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Speaker 4: Really the Frank's Hearing was one hundred and thirty six pages.

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Speaker 4: So in that convoluted memo with a lot of grammatical mistakes,

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Speaker 4: was why Liggot lied. And I remember getting that. I

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Speaker 4: was at Crime Connor hearing about it first, and I

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Speaker 4: was with the family members there, and I didn't read

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Speaker 4: the entire memo because to me, it was the defense's

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Speaker 4: way of having the media read it.

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Speaker 2: Well, wait a minute, whether you look, you did not

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Speaker 2: fight your way onto Lauri review at law school. Okay,

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Speaker 2: you don't have to tell me what Sam. I thought

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Speaker 2: it was one hundred and thirty nine pages.

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Speaker 1: But that said, you heard the hearing.

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Speaker 2: Did they ever come forward the defense and claim what

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Speaker 2: Leiggott allegedly lied about? I mean, because I've never known

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Speaker 2: you to be wrong on a fact, Susan ever, so

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Speaker 2: if they didn't give a clear picture about what the

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Speaker 2: Franks claim is after that many days of testimony, Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's just suffice to say they're claiming Ligot lied about

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Speaker 2: a warrant, which warrant a rest or search search search.

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Speaker 4: Of what of Richard Allen's home, which they did end

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Speaker 4: up searching.

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Speaker 2: Because there were so many search warrants, I got to

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Speaker 2: make sure which one is in jeopardy over an alleged

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Speaker 2: lie by the sheriff.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get into the meat of this, the

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Speaker 2: claim that Norse god worshipers really kill the girls.

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Speaker 1: And everything else's happening in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: But rich Schownstein is joining me, a veteran trial lawyer

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Speaker 2: partner with Tartar, Krinsky and Drogan. Okay, I don't like

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Speaker 2: that name because your name is not the lead name.

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Speaker 2: I don't like that, and you need to fix that,

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Speaker 2: Rich Schoenstein. Did you just hear Susan Hendrick say it

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Speaker 2: was full of grammatical errors. That may be a small

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Speaker 2: and consequential detail to a lot of people, but I

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Speaker 2: can tell you this after trying so many cases, I've

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Speaker 2: lost count and handling literally about ten thousand felonies.

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Speaker 1: I know that's hard to believe, but think about it.

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Speaker 2: Over ten plus years in a felony courtroom, and you

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Speaker 2: get about one hundred new cases a week added up.

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Speaker 2: Those cases have to be resolved, whether it's a plea

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Speaker 2: or a trial. That said, when I get a brief

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Speaker 2: and the first thing I say, see is a lot

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Speaker 2: of grammatical errors, I'm like, if they didn't even think

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Speaker 2: to do a word check, a spell check and they

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Speaker 2: can't spell, I doubt anything in here is going to

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Speaker 2: really knock me out. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, especially today when you know that spell checks and

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Speaker 5: grammar checks as you type. It's not like the old

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Speaker 5: days when you and I began practicing, where you'd have

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Speaker 5: to type something and then get proof readers on it.

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Speaker 5: The machine proofs it while you go. So if it's

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Speaker 5: full of mistakes, if it's full of grammatical mistakes, if

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Speaker 5: it doesn't make sense, if it doesn't look good, you're

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Speaker 5: going to be less inclined to buy the arguments in it.

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Speaker 6: That's just the bobble.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and the fact that Susan Hendrix said full of

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Speaker 2: grammatical errors, like she and I are big on grammar

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Speaker 2: and grammatical errors and improper english Jackie. So that said,

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Speaker 2: if that's the first thing you notice the rest of it,

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Speaker 2: you're not going to be impressed.

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Speaker 1: Now can we get to the act evidence. But you

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Speaker 1: know one more thing, Susan Henders, I just want to

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Speaker 1: tell you.

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Speaker 2: You remember the other day you were sitting in the

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Speaker 2: courtroom with the victim's family and Richard Allen, the double

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Speaker 2: murder suspect who I believe stripped both little girls before

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Speaker 2: he killed them, and god only.

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Speaker 1: Knows what else.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that he kept turning around and glaring at

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Speaker 2: you and the victim's family, and you and I talked

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Speaker 2: about what that meant. People online went bizarre, saying, why

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Speaker 2: are you focusing on the guy staring at Susan Hendricks

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Speaker 2: and the family. That doesn't matter, Actually it does matter.

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Speaker 2: But now get ready because we're going to get it

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Speaker 2: up the tailpipe about talking about grammar, So just go

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Speaker 2: ahead and buckle your seatbelt.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, back to the evidence Listen.

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Speaker 7: Richard Allen's defense is also fighting to have their third

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Speaker 7: party culprit defense heard by the jury. Allen's attorneys insist

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Speaker 7: that law enforcement did not fully investigate five men bound

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Speaker 7: together by a Rushville Odinis club. Their theory stems from

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Speaker 7: a twelve page filing by Trooper Kevin Murphy that the

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Speaker 7: defense refers to as the Odin Report.

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Speaker 3: The defense hires non Pearl Mutter, an expert on ritualistic crimes.

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Speaker 3: Pearl Mutter testifies that the crime scene is textbook. Pearl

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Speaker 3: Mutter sees ruines on the sticks laid on top of

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Speaker 3: Abby and Libby's bodies and points out a blood smear

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Speaker 3: on a tree in the shape of the letter F,

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Speaker 3: explaining that it is significant to Odin Knight's.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to need help getting through this because

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Speaker 2: all I can envision are these two little girls, Abby

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Speaker 2: and Libby dead. Susan Hendricks hold on, Susan one moment.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to come back to you about what in

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Speaker 2: the evidence suggests. The defense theory that Accult did this

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Speaker 2: and then I'm going to go to doctor Mark Mirabello,

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Speaker 2: former professor History, Shawnee State University and author of The

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Speaker 2: Odin Brotherhood. Okay, if you want to know more about that,

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Speaker 2: going to Markmirabello dot com The Odin Brotherhood. Okay, Before

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Speaker 2: I get to that, Joe Scott Morgan is with us

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Speaker 2: along with Chris McDonough. Chris mcdonnad director Cold Case Foundation,

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Speaker 2: former homicide detective about three hundred death scenes homicides. To

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Speaker 2: his credit, he is at Colcasefoundation dot org. I found

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Speaker 2: him on the interview room on YouTube. Before I go

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Speaker 2: to him to analyze what Joe Scott's about to say,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, Joseph Sorry.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of

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Speaker 2: Blood Beneath My Feet, I'm waiting for the second book,

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Speaker 2: It Hasn't Happened, and host of a hit series Body

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Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, could you please

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Speaker 2: describe as the defense is twitching its tail and gnashing

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Speaker 2: its teeth, coming up with everybody and their sister that

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Speaker 2: they can blame the murders on. Could you just give

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Speaker 2: me a little reality check, Joe Scott and explain how

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Speaker 2: these girls. I just got chills on my arms because

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Speaker 2: when I said these girls, I thought.

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Speaker 1: About my girl at my boy. How these girls were

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Speaker 1: found lying out in the open dead.

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Speaker 8: Explain it in a very isolated area immediately adjacent to

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Speaker 8: this body of water, that is that has flown, that

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Speaker 8: flows beneath this bridge. It's densely wooded. However, there were

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Speaker 8: no leaves on the tree trees at this point in time.

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Speaker 8: Remember this is back in the early spring or just

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Speaker 8: heading into spring, and they are, in my opinion, from

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Speaker 8: what I'm understanding, essentially pose the bodies have been stripped.

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Speaker 8: And you've got this event that has occurred where they

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Speaker 8: are alleging that one of the bodies has been redressed

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Speaker 8: with the clothing of another.

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Speaker 1: Okay, stop right there, Joe Scotty.

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Speaker 2: You and I are used to looking at dead bodies,

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Speaker 2: were used to analyzing them, every little thing about them,

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Speaker 2: the actual angle of a bullet as it travels through

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Speaker 2: the body, which organs were decimated, trace evidence, touch evidence,

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Speaker 2: fiber evidence, hair.

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Speaker 1: You name it. Can we just pause for a moment.

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Speaker 2: And think about the person that stripped these little girls

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Speaker 2: and then redressed one of them, of course, confusing the clothing.

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Speaker 1: Could you get through that one more time?

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Speaker 2: Out there on the ground in the woods, the little

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Speaker 2: girls stripped, I guess pre mortem.

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Speaker 1: And then do you remember Ted Bundy? Of course you

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Speaker 1: do remember there or there's.

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Speaker 2: Proof that he would actually take some of the victim's

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Speaker 2: bodies and bathe them in a bathtub and fix their

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Speaker 2: hair and makeup. But just think about the ritualistic redressing.

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Speaker 1: The idiot, of course.

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Speaker 2: Used the wrong clothes, but redressing a did child's body.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Joe Scott, we have to slow down and

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Speaker 2: think about these facts.

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Speaker 1: You and I just like spit it out.

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Speaker 2: And it's better for me that way, because when I

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Speaker 2: slow down to think about the facts, I can't sleep

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Speaker 2: at night, I don't feel like eating, I want to cry.

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Speaker 2: But these are the facts and we can't turn away

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Speaker 2: from it.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, And when you think about this idea of redressing,

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Speaker 8: it's to my way of thinking, at least, it's you have.

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Speaker 8: You know, people throw around the term objectification all the time.

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Speaker 8: This is literally pure objectification, where you're talking about you

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Speaker 8: have dehumanized the individual. They're treated like dolls at this

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Speaker 8: point in time so that you can play dress up

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Speaker 8: with them in some kind of twisted manner. I've actually

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Speaker 8: been involved in a series of serial killings that I've

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Speaker 8: investigated back in the early part of my career, where

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Speaker 8: an individual would do the same thing, and it's it

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Speaker 8: is evidence of kind of a demented mind that does this,

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Speaker 8: that engages in almost this necrophilic behavior.

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Speaker 1: Chilling details emerged during a three day hearing for the

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Speaker 1: Delphi murders.

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Speaker 2: Evidence pouring from the witness stand. But this is what

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Speaker 2: has always driven me crazy, among so many things, is

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Speaker 2: that we on the outside looking in will know more

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Speaker 2: of the evidence than the actual jury will ever know,

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Speaker 2: because so much of this evidence is being ruled out

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Speaker 2: with me an all star panel, and we're stuck on

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Speaker 2: the theory that paganists that worship Norse gods actually murdered

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Speaker 2: Abby and Libby. Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator, and I

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Speaker 2: were just describing how the girls were completely naked and

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Speaker 2: then the killer re dressed one of them, and I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking about the mind of someone that would so desecrate

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Speaker 2: a little girl in this manner. But we may think

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Speaker 2: it's outlandish, we may think it's far fast it is.

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Speaker 1: That's why we think that. But if the defense can

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Speaker 1: snag one.

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Speaker 2: Juror and cause a mische, that's a huge victory for them,

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Speaker 2: just one gurrr that buys into this crazy zany thing. Now,

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Speaker 2: I want you to listen to how they're taking a

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Speaker 2: zany claim that worshippers of the Norse gods. I'm talking

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Speaker 2: about Thor and Odin. You know about the Valkyrie, the

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Speaker 2: women warriors who fly through the sky, and even if

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Speaker 2: they're killed in battle in this pretend world, they arise

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Speaker 2: to fight the next day. Again, that's what they believe. Okay,

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Speaker 2: how can that be translated into a real life defense?

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 3: The defense argues that Brad Holder, the father of Abbey's

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Speaker 3: boyfriend and a known odinist, was ruled out as a

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Speaker 3: suspect too quickly. The defense alleges Holder posted several eerie

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Speaker 3: photos on Facebook in the days after the murders, including

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Speaker 3: one that appears to mimic the crime scene. Court documents

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Speaker 3: say the pictures show two girls lying in the woods

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Speaker 3: in positions similar to how Abby and Libby these bodies

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Speaker 3: were discovered. Holder also posts runes and a photo with

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Speaker 3: the letter F painted on a tree.

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Speaker 2: Before I can even formulate my next question to Susan Hendricks,

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Speaker 2: a investigated journalist and author, I need to get some facts.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Mark Mirabello is joining us, who has now shot

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Speaker 2: to fame because of the book The odin Brotherhood that

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Speaker 2: he wrote before any of us had even heard of Odinism.

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Speaker 2: G How did we miss that Odinism? He had already

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Speaker 2: written a book, doctor Mark Mirabello. So great to have

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Speaker 2: you with us. Now the defense is claiming that Odinist

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Speaker 2: actually murdered Libby and Abby, and they're pointing toward what

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Speaker 2: they claim are runs, which I believe are rocks, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure, lying on the body or around

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Speaker 2: the body?

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Speaker 1: What are runs?

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Speaker 2: What do they have to do with the pagan religion

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Speaker 2: of Aganism?

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Speaker 9: By the way, several points. First, I'm now Professor emeritus,

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Speaker 9: which is retired in a great honor. Now we get

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Speaker 9: answering your question. The Vikings used the rooms, and oddly

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Speaker 9: enough they seem to resemble a trust in writing style

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Speaker 9: from northern Italy. We're not certain of the origin, but

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Speaker 9: the ruins were designed to be carved into wood, bone

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Speaker 9: and stone. Now, because the Vikings were overwhelmingly illiterate, like

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Speaker 9: a lot of the literate people, they thought writing was magical.

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Speaker 9: And by the way, I should mention very clearly, writing

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Speaker 9: is magical. With writing and communicate with the future, you

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Speaker 9: can read the thoughts of the past. So it really

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Speaker 9: is magical. And in fact, in many cultures, like in

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Speaker 9: ancient Egypt, writing something can cause magical acts to occur.

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Speaker 2: Doctor, they claim that writing is magical to pretend I

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Speaker 2: didn't we hear that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, oh it is.

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Speaker 6: Who killed?

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Speaker 1: Go ahead the rings.

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Speaker 9: Okay, Now, remember I'm a specialist and occultism and also matriical.

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Speaker 6: Lord.

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Speaker 9: So but let's get back to the ruins and quickly,

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Speaker 9: let me just specify that this is not a human sacrifice.

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Speaker 9: I mean, anyone who knows anything about the history of

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Speaker 9: religion understands this is not a human sacrifice. The whole

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Speaker 9: point of human sacrifice, and I remember it was on

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Speaker 9: your show last time I made this point I won't

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Speaker 9: repeat myself, is a ritualized killing. It's a what's called

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Speaker 9: a comedy of innocence where you pretend you're not really

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Speaker 9: killing someone a simple murder. You're killing someone, you're cutting

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Speaker 9: the throat whatever, shooting them. A ritual sacrifice is essentially

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Speaker 9: you're pretending you're not. And the whole purpose of ritual

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Speaker 9: sacrifice is to either earn the favor of the gods,

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Speaker 9: give gratitude a tone for some kind of a fence.

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Speaker 9: For example, ancient Greeks when they killed someone would dip

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Speaker 9: their hands, even soldiers, in a pig's blood that they

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Speaker 9: had sacrificed to purify them. They couldn't go back in

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Speaker 9: the temples. So again the sacrifice of purpose, and the

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Speaker 9: important part is the ritual. You don't do this in

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Speaker 9: the middle of nowhere and start spreading sticks on the

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Speaker 9: bodies or putting an f on a tree. You would

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Speaker 9: if this were really a sacrifice. The felon would bring

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Speaker 9: the little girls to a location and he would act

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Speaker 9: out a ritual, kind of like the way if you've

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Speaker 9: ever seen the Dexter show, the serial killer, how he

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Speaker 9: acts out a ritual when he kills the serial killers.

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Speaker 1: Right, see see what you just said. I hope the

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Speaker 1: state is listening. Who doesn't know about Dexter. By the way,

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Speaker 1: there's a reboot just so you know. Let me take

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Speaker 1: this in just.

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Speaker 2: For a moment, because formulating an opening statement and a

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Speaker 2: closing statement and in this case, the state will have

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Speaker 2: the final closing statement, which is very, very.

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Speaker 1: If critical for the state.

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Speaker 2: It will be the last words the jury hears before

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Speaker 2: jury instructions, before they go deliberate. And this is critical

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Speaker 2: because see I'm hanging on you every word. This could

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Speaker 2: mean justice or injustice for the families of Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 2: And I'm telling you right now, doctor Mirabello, that this

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Speaker 2: is the direction in which.

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Speaker 1: The defense is going. Why because they've already put it

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Speaker 1: out there. They're kind of stuck with it. Now.

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Speaker 2: Now hold on, when you compared it to Dexter, Now

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Speaker 2: see that's something a jury and myself we can understand.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to circle back to you, Joe Scott Morgan

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Speaker 2: on all the Latin mumbo jumbo you throw out there,

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Speaker 2: and you expect all of us to understand it. We're

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Speaker 2: not medical doctrines, show Scott, we're not death investigators. But

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Speaker 2: what he just said, what he just said, if you

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Speaker 2: tell a jury and you compare to like Dexter, someone

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Speaker 2: that most people can relate to have seen it, and

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Speaker 2: remember how he just got lays out plastic, surrounds himself

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Speaker 2: with plastic, and only uses certain tools and has a

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Speaker 2: ritual where he puts the victim's pictures up all around

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Speaker 2: the defendant, and the defendant wakes up and sees what

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Speaker 2: he has done before Dexter kills him. That's a ritual

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Speaker 2: and that's something Givars can latch onto.

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Speaker 1: To further Mirabello's assertion that this was no ritual.

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Speaker 2: He basically molested and murdered two little girls in the woods.

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Speaker 1: That's what happened. Get it.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, let me tell you something. I'm old enough to

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Speaker 8: remember when every damn case out there was referred to

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Speaker 8: as a ritualistic killing. When I started working back in

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Speaker 8: the eighties, everything was pushed off on ritualism. There was

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Speaker 8: a safe and this around every corner. Need need I

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Speaker 8: remind people of the McMartin case preschool case out in California.

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Speaker 8: That was one of the biggest frauds that was ever

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Speaker 8: foisted on the American public. And I think we're going

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Speaker 8: down that road here, Nancy. You know, when you think

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Speaker 8: about it, if you're talking about an individual that is

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Speaker 8: out in the woods, there's going to be a very

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Speaker 8: specific area. If this is a ritualized event, there will

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Speaker 8: be an area where they do this all the time.

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Speaker 8: In this in this little area. It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: We have a symbol today, the best and the brightest,

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Speaker 2: to take apart what we're learning from Susan Hendrick's investigative

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Speaker 2: journalist and author of an incredible book, Down the Hill,

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Speaker 2: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Okay, wait, wait,

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Speaker 2: I want to go back to Mirabello. Doctor Mark Mirabello literally.

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Speaker 1: Wrote the book on the Odin brotherhood.

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Speaker 2: As fantastical as this defensive theory may sound, they're actually attaching.

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Speaker 1: It to real people.

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Speaker 2: Of just one gr Ard gets sucked in the state

401
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Speaker 2: is screwed technical legal term.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 10: The defense team refers back to Trooper Kevin Murphy's investigation,

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Speaker 10: during which he learned that Rushville odinist Elvis Fields allegedly

405
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Speaker 10: described the crime scene in detail to his sister. Murphy

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Speaker 10: writes that when questioned about that admission, Fields denies any

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Speaker 10: involvement in the murders, but strangely asks if he will

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Speaker 10: be in trouble if his spit is found on the

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Speaker 10: girl's bodies. Fields also has ties to Brad Holder, frequently

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Speaker 10: reposting or copying Holder's Facebook posts.

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Speaker 1: Oh Dear Lord in Heaven as a prosecutor. That's what

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Speaker 1: I don't want to hear, okay.

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Speaker 2: But you have to hear it, and you've got to

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Speaker 2: confront it in your opening statement. Susan Hendrix helped me.

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Speaker 2: The defense is going to claim, under the odness theory

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Speaker 2: that a Rushville oldness l this feels described the crime

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Speaker 2: scene in detail to his sister.

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Speaker 1: Now I can't.

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Speaker 2: I can explain that enough details had leaked out in

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Speaker 2: the local area and sometimes in the press that he

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Speaker 2: could latch onto those details and then regurgitate him. You

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00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: regurgitate them to his sister, but I'm not sure what

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Speaker 2: about him asking well, I be in trouble if my

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Speaker 2: spit is on the girls?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, where?

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Speaker 4: And the investigator Nancy Kevin Murphy, he was on the

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Speaker 4: stand and by the way, he broke down in tears

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Speaker 4: when seeing the crime scene photos that were handed to him,

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Speaker 4: breaking down in tears and saying yes. I interviewed Elvis Fields.

430
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Speaker 4: I pulled him up to his house. He came to

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Speaker 4: my adoor and asked that question, and the former Indiana

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Speaker 4: State Police officer now retired, said, I made a mistake.

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Speaker 4: I should have had lunch with him or talked more

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Speaker 4: about what he was talking about. But here's what stands

435
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Speaker 4: out to me. They all have alibis the cross examination of.

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Speaker 2: The mast q in heaven, I don't care if he

437
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Speaker 2: asked about a spit in his fingerprints. He has an alibi.

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00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: That's all I need to hear. Are you sure this

439
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: guy who is an oldinist? Where do these people come from?

440
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: An oldist?

441
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: Elvis Feels asks, hey, well, I'll be in trouble if

442
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: my spits on the dead girl's body.

443
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Are you telling me he has an alibi?

444
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 6: Yes?

445
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 4: No, yes, And Brad Holder absolutely does. His ex wife

446
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 4: was on the stand saying, look, he did mention the

447
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 4: girls and mentioned that killing and the murders. But the

448
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 4: cross examination was huge. Nancy, drink you from the higher.

449
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: Fire hydrant, Susan Hendricks too much.

450
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 4: Chief asked, we hadn't come down.

451
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: You do?

452
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: You do, and you're incredible, but you've got to spoon

453
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 2: feed it to me. Okay, I've got to destroy if

454
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: I'm prosecuting the case, destroy every one of these theories

455
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 2: one by one. It's okay, this guy an oldist, go figure.

456
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: Elvis Feels, who says, well, why be in trouble if

457
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: my salon I my spit. His words, not mine, are

458
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: on the dead girls' bodies. Okay, that would give calls

459
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 2: for suspicion. He has an alibi, But what about the

460
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: guy you just mentioned, brad Holder?

461
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: Listen?

462
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: The defense also reveals that brad Holder drunkenly tells his

463
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: ex wife that he had a falling out with his

464
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: friend Patrick Westfall over an odinist ritual gone bad. In

465
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 3: February twenty seventeen. When Amber Holder presses her ex further,

466
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 3: Holder tells her that Westfall admitted to Abby and Libby's

467
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: murders and that she needs to keep quiet about.

468
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: It or they will kill her too. Oh.

469
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: Chris McDonough joining me, director Cold Case Foundation. I found

470
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: him on the interview room on YouTube during the Coburger

471
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: the initial phases of the investigation.

472
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, what do we do with idiots who make.

473
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 2: False confessions, drunk confessions to their wives, crazy confessions to

474
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: their sisters when there are elebis proving it's not them.

475
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 6: Well, the first thing you do is you slow down,

476
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 6: and whenever Elvis centers the building, you stop and you think, logically,

477
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 6: number one, you have the suspect on the bridge on video,

478
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 6: and if this is a you know, if we're going

479
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 6: to the Viking Share, then you know they they really

480
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 6: worked really hard to make the universe on schedule that day.

481
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 6: Because you have this suspect on top of the bridge,

482
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 6: and there's supposed to be this whole little coven underneath

483
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 6: the bridge, you know, having this ritual of some sort,

484
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 6: and then these two poor little victims who are out

485
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 6: on a walk end up showing up. This is the

486
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 6: This case has all the indications of a highly sexually

487
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 6: fantasized playout fantasy playing its olpen Chris.

488
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: McDonough, do you ever have to leave our program and

489
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: then just go take hot shower and scrub yourself?

490
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: Did you hear what you just said?

491
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: I mean, you just said that murdering these two little

492
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: girls was part of I believe you said, a highly

493
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: sexualized fantasy, killing two little girls, swapping parts in their clothes,

494
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: leaving them naked out in the woods, their bodies potentially

495
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: being torn apart by animals, while the parents and the

496
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: grandparents are just like vomiting out of fear and pain

497
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: looking for their little children. I mean, that's his sex fantasy,

498
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: you know what. Yeah, it's almost more than I can

499
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: take in.

500
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 6: You know, and Nancy, not only that, think about the

501
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 6: horror that the children are going through.

502
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 9: I e.

503
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 6: There's a gun involved. Okay, he's stripping each of these children,

504
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 6: and why is she doing this? Is he holding one

505
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 6: of them at gunpoint and while the other one is

506
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 6: putting the other child's clothing on? Does he then kill

507
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 6: that victim in front of the other victim who ends

508
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 6: up potentially running. There's evidence that one of the children

509
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 6: were running at that point. This guy is playing out

510
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 6: his fantasy and it's not going the way he wanted

511
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 6: it to. And the brutality of this is shown the

512
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 6: fact that a knife was now used and these four

513
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 6: children had to suffer through that pain, and that suffering

514
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 6: in of itself.

515
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: Two other Rushville odinists with ties to brad Holder, Elvis

516
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 3: Fields and Patrick Westfall, are also named as potentially missed

517
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: suspects by the defense, although the men live nearly one

518
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 3: hundred and thirty miles away. One of their girlfriends told

519
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: investigators that she loaned her car to her boyfriend around

520
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: Valentine's Day twenty seventeen so he could visit Odinis friends Delphi.

521
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: Her boyfriend returned the car to her with dried blood

522
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 3: down one side, and she says he refused to explain

523
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: where the blood came from.

524
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: What is she a crime scene tech? Does she test

525
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: the substance that was on the side of the car

526
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: and know it to be blood and human blood?

527
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: Really? So wait, is this guy?

528
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: Is this another specter part of the sod some of

529
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: the dude did it defense? The defense in this case

530
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: is going to parade in front of the jury. A girl,

531
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: an ex girlfriend, she can you imagine why? Says her

532
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: boyfriend drives to Delphi, say he can visit his odinist

533
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: friends and comes back with blood on the side of

534
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: the car. And when explain it that that is not

535
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: a sufficient sufficient evidence to claim that boyfriend was responsible.

536
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: In one word, Susan Hendrix, it's going to be hard

537
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: because you have so much knowledge now after sitting through

538
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: all of these days and days and days of hearings.

539
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: Can these guys be alibi by the state?

540
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: Yes?

541
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 4: No, yes, And they can't be tied to at the

542
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 4: cross examination. I know it's one word, but they could

543
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 4: not be tied to the crime scene at all, any

544
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 4: of them, even though they were investigated, which it was

545
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 4: six plus years till anyone was arrested, so you understand

546
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 4: the investigation. But then were they tied to the crime scene?

547
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 4: And the answer time and time again on the stand, No, no, no.

548
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: Do they have alibis?

549
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: Were they punched in at work where there's a receipt

550
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: placing them at Walmart?

551
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 4: A brad Holder was punched in, Yes, punched in at

552
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: work and punched in at the gym Bradholder.

553
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: Yet what about the others.

554
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if Elvis Fields has an alibi, the

555
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 4: one who turned around and said if my spit was

556
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: at the scene. But nothing, nothing connects him, no evidence

557
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 4: to the crime scene.

558
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: I guarantee you right now the state is scrambling to

559
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: get an alibi for all of these guys. But as

560
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix just explained, you have to be physically tied

561
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: to the same as we believe this guy, Richard Allen,

562
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: is tied to the scene. But I want to go

563
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 2: back to doctor Mark Mirabello, Professor emeritus of History, Shawnee

564
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: State University, author of The Odin Brotherhood.

565
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: You just explained how.

566
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: Unlike Dexter, there is no ritual at all regarding the

567
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: murders of these two little girls, Abby and Libby what

568
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: else strikes you as proof this was not some sort

569
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: of a ritualistic killer.

570
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: Ritualistic killer, yes, go ahead.

571
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 9: Well we off the top one point as curious as

572
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 9: Elvis means, I see God. Now, incidentally, for your audience,

573
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 9: most of which are probably Christians. Not all Norse Pagans

574
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 9: are called Odinans. They tend to be called asa. True,

575
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 9: the more conservative are the oldness. Now I've studied these

576
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 9: groups for since the nineteen eighties. I have never seen

577
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 9: evity evidence of human sacrifice or even animal sacrifice. Now

578
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 9: earlier people's would sacrifice. Ancient Romans did, ancient Greeks did,

579
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 9: and so forth. Incidentally, Paul in his writings refers to

580
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 9: pete Christians eating meat offered to devils. He's referring to

581
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 9: is you could not slaughter an animal in ancient Greece

582
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 9: or Rome. It was always ritually killed. And again back

583
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 9: to the point they.

584
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 2: Called the moderns, doctor Mirabello gave her forest trees? What

585
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: about this saying tells you it's not a ritualistic killing.

586
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 9: As I said before, And it's really clear they would

587
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 9: not do something in such a haphazard way. I want

588
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 9: to make it very clear that and this is important.

589
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 9: It sounds like I'm in the weeds, but it's not.

590
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 9: Earlier peoples all practiced various forms of sacrifice, and if

591
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 9: it had been one offered to Odin, they would be

592
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 9: what's called sky sacrifice with a piercing. And that's based

593
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 9: on the Old Norse old Norse story that Odin sacrificed

594
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 9: himself to himself. And by the way, we find bodies

595
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 9: from the Middle Ages where they're sacrifice this way, and

596
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 9: what the sky sacrifice reverse do. He hanged himself on

597
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 9: the world's tree, that's the tree that holds up the

598
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 9: nine worlds, which is the universe, and then pierced himself

599
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 9: with a spear as an offering of himself to himself. Now,

600
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 9: nineteenth century scholars thought this was a curious story.

601
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: Stop TMI, too much information. Now, well, I personally am

602
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 2: fascinated by everything you're saying. And that's not tongue in cheeke,

603
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: I actually mean it.

604
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: I can't put all this in front of a jury.

605
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 1: That's just like you're in encyclopedia.

606
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 2: You're walking encyclopedia as it relates to the Odin brotherhood.

607
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: But to think and practicalities.

608
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: Have to say to a jury, this is not a

609
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: ritualistic killing because X y Z, and then I need

610
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: to put you on the stand and very simply explain why.

611
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: Here's a good start. Listen.

612
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 7: On cross examination, prosecutor Nicholas mclealand points out that Pearl

613
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 7: Mutter also had quote no doubt the murders were ritualistic,

614
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 7: in a TV appearance months before reviewing any evidence. Mcleland

615
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 7: also claims Alan admitted he only used the sticks on

616
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 7: the bodies to cover them. A blood pattern expert testifies

617
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 7: the apparent letter F is likely just a smear from

618
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 7: blood on Abby's hand, and mcleland gets Pearl Mutter to

619
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 7: admit there's no physical evidence tying any of the named

620
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 7: odinists to the crime scene.

621
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 2: Okay, Susan Hendricks, let me understand what I just heard

622
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: from Crime onlines. Dave Mack, the expert that's going to

623
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: come on at trial, committed to a ritualistic odistic killing

624
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 2: before he ever saw well any evidence.

625
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: Is that correct? It is?

626
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: And she was on the stand for some time talking

627
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 4: about why she thought it was this way. So Nick

628
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 4: McCleland said, well, what if I told you she mentioned

629
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 4: a knife being part of that ritual he said, what

630
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 4: if I told you during the confessions he said it

631
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 4: was a box cutter, she would that changed her mind now.

632
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 5: Well.

633
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: Also, the blood pattern expert explains the letter F is

634
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: likely a blood smear from Abby's hand, and the so

635
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: called expert has to admit no physical evidence ties.

636
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: Any of these oldness to the.

637
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: Crime scene, and then we have to deal with all

638
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: the confessions.

639
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen to this.

640
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 3: On the witness stand, Doctor Monica Walla and Indiana Department

641
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 3: of Corrections psychologists treating Richard Allen, claims that she noticed

642
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 3: the accused killer smiraling just before the confessions began. Wala

643
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: describes Alan banging his head against the wall, eating his

644
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 3: own feces, and frequently speaking of suicide. Testifies that staff

645
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: is providing Allan antipsychotic medications at least once a month.

646
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: Well.

647
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 10: Special Judge Fran Gull has yet to rule on the

648
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 10: amissibility of Richard Allen's many confessions testimony. Did swear r

649
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 10: to vacate a safe keeping order and remove Allan from

650
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 10: the Westville Correctional Facility. Allan will instead be held at

651
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 10: the Cass County Jail.

652
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 2: BOO, who did anybody ever think Richard Schoenstein, veteran trial lawyer,

653
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: that he's spiraling because he got caught for.

654
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: The double murders of two little children.

655
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 11: Sure, that's a possibility, But you know, Nancy, the guy's

656
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 11: got it due process right, So I mean we get

657
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 11: to have a trial, he gets to put on a

658
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 11: defense if he wants to argue Odins did it, and

659
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 11: he has some.

660
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 5: Evidence in that regard, I think he gets to put

661
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 5: it on.

662
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 2: Well, of course he does, and in fact, Rich Shoenstein,

663
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: I would be angry.

664
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: I'd be mad if he didn't.

665
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: I hope he tries to blame the worshippers of the

666
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: Norse gods.

667
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: But what I'm telling you is the defense is climbing.

668
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: Oh, he's out of his mind when he gave all

669
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: these six Steve plus confessions to inmates, two guards.

670
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: To his wife on the phone, that he didn't know

671
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: what he was saying.

672
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 2: I would submit rich schoen Stein that he started spiraling

673
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: out of control because he realized it's over.

674
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: They caught me. I'm in jail. I've been busted on

675
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: two murders. I killed two little girls. That is one

676
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: possible explanation, but another possible.

677
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 5: Explanation is that he's been in prisoned for something he

678
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 5: didn't do and it's making him crazy. And it's up

679
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 5: for a jury to decide which of those explanations is correct.

680
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: Okay, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

681
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 2: That's not going to work show and Stein maybe.

682
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: In front of a jury, but not here. You're in Nancyland. Now.

683
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: You can't claim.

684
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: He's so upset because he's wrongly confused, and that he

685
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: can fess over sixty times.

686
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 6: Why not? Why are those two things inconsistent? Why is

687
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 6: it inconsistent?

688
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 2: Because if he's unjustly accused, then why would he confess?

689
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 6: I don't. I mean, listen, it's not what I would do.

690
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 5: But the fury is he's been driven to it by

691
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 5: being put in solitary confinement, by being pulled away from

692
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 5: his family. Look, I don't think the jury is going

693
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 5: to buy it either.

694
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: Hey, you know what Showen's saying. You know who has

695
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: pulled away from their family? Abby and Libby totally agree.

696
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: Guys.

697
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: We wait, as the evidence unfolds in a court of law,

698
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: how much of this will the jury ever hear?

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00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,