1 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. This is a story. I'm os 2 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: Voloshen here with Cara Price hi Oz. 3 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 2: Today I want to talk to you about something that 4 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: is very unsexy, and that is the sex recession. 5 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 3: Sex and money, I guess together, but not in a 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 3: good way. What does this have to do with technology? 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 2: Before I get to technology, I want to ground us. 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 2: The sex recession refers to a documented decline in sexual 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: activity among younger generations. So apparently Gen Z, which is 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: the generation born between ninety seven and twenty twelve, is 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: having sex later in life and less frequently than previous 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: generations like ours, truly millennials. 13 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 3: I definitely heard about the less frequently, but I also 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 3: always want to see these kind of like trendle think pieces. 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 3: I'm a little bit confused as to how we actually know. 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 4: Well, at least in this case. 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: Part of the reason we know is because of people 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: like our guests today. Carter Sherman is a journalist who 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: covers reproductive health and justice at the Guardian, and she 20 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: actually just wrote a book called The Second Coming, Sex 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: and the Next Generation's Fight over its Future. And in 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: writing the book, she not only leaned on years of 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: her reporting, but she also conducted over one hundred interviews 24 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: with young people, and what she found is that there 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 2: is a sex recession going on. The Kinsey Institute says 26 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: that one in four gen Z adults has never had 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: partnered sex. But that doesn't mean gen Z doesn't think 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 2: about sex. 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 5: So if we're saying that young people are not horny 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 5: these days, I can tell you they are horny. That 31 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 5: is my expert opinion. Young people are horny, and they 32 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 5: would like to have more sex oftentimes. But I think 33 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 5: that they feel like the obstacles to sex are higher 34 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 5: these days than they have been in the past. 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 3: So I'm curious about these obstacles. And I'll ask you 36 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: again why. 37 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: This is an episode of tech stuff. 38 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: Well, she said there are a lot of factors, and 39 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: she gets into it more in the interview, but some 40 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: of the major ones have to do with what you'd 41 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: expect social media, smartphones, and internet pornography, which are all 42 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: kind of changing and warping the way we connect with 43 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: one another. But Carter told me, for her, at least, 44 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: the concern is less about whether or not gen Z 45 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 2: is having sex. It's more about what sex represents to them. 46 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 5: I will say honestly that I actually don't care that 47 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 5: much if gen Z has sex or not. What I 48 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 5: care about is whether or not sex is approximy measure 49 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 5: for people's willingness to be vulnerable, or their willingness to 50 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 5: be in relationship with other people, to have connections with 51 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 5: other people, to be empathetic to other people's point of view. 52 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: This is actually a brainteresting idea sex is a kind 53 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: of almost like an antidote or a corrective to living 54 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: in an entirely virtual world. 55 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, for Carter, this actually goes way beyond sex, 56 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: and at the heart of her book are questions about 57 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: the consequences of life in a world where face to 58 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: face communication, which could be sex or just chatting with someone, 59 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: is eroding. 60 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 5: Not only is having empathy, having connection, being willing to 61 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 5: risk rejection and risk grown ability. Not only is that 62 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 5: important to people's personal growth and ability to live a 63 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 5: whole life, but I do actually think it has political implications. 64 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 5: We have to be willing to build bonds with other 65 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 5: people in order to have a cohesive democracy, and I 66 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 5: think a lot of people are kind of worried about 67 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 5: the state of our democracy at this time. And I 68 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 5: don't think we can take away what's going on with 69 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 5: sex and what's going on with intimacy from the questions 70 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 5: of the future of our democracy. 71 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: So, as you can tell, we get into some heady stuff, 72 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: but we also talk about how gen z's access to 73 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: things like online fan fiction have made them actually kinkier 74 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: and more LGBTQ friendly than previous generations. And I actually 75 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: started this piece by asking Carter what compelled her to 76 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: write this book in the first place. So here's the 77 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: rest of our conversation. 78 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 5: Well, so I've covered gender and sexuality for eight less 79 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 5: years now, and I have spent a lot of time 80 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 5: thinking about the ways that current events shape people's relationship 81 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 5: with sex. So I've covered me too, I've covered the 82 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 5: overturning over a v. Wade, I've covered changes in internet 83 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 5: law around things like pornography. So I was compelled to 84 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 5: write the book because I wanted to understand what it 85 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 5: was like for young people to live through all of 86 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 5: these kinds of changes and how they understood their own 87 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 5: relationship with sex, because I think we're really obsessed with 88 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 5: telling young people all the time that they're doing sex wrong. 89 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 5: Either they're having too much sex or they're having too 90 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 5: little sex, or they're having the wrong kind of sex. 91 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 5: And I wanted to know what young people themselves thought 92 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 5: about their sex lives and thought about the discourse and 93 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 5: the politics around their sex lives, because there's just so 94 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 5: many ways in which young people are much more progressive 95 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 5: when it comes to sex. They have much more inclusive 96 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 5: ideas around sex and gender, and they're much more accepting 97 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 5: of premarital sex. 98 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 4: They're much more accepting of same sex sex. 99 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 5: But what I found is that young people are actually 100 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 5: still harboring quite a bit of shame, particularly if they 101 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 5: feel like they haven't had sex at a time when 102 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 5: they should have had it. 103 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: Well, there have been so many articles in the last 104 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: few years about how gen Z isn't having sex, Like 105 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: is this true or is this just like a grabby headline. 106 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 5: It is true that gen Z is having less sex 107 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 5: than past generations, and that they're having sex on average 108 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 5: later than past generations. One in four adult members of 109 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 5: gen Z has not had sex with an other person. 110 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 5: Only about a third of high school students have had sex, 111 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 5: which is down from about fifty percent when I was 112 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 5: in high school. Even masturbation is on the decline, which 113 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 5: is shocking to me. Because masturbation is free, and so 114 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 5: there is clearly something going on here around young people's 115 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 5: relationship with sex. I think what is oftentimes lost in 116 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 5: the headlines is that the sexer session did not actually 117 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 5: start with gen Z. It started with people like me, 118 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 5: late millennials. So we started to see evidence of the 119 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 5: sex or session by like the mid to late twenty 120 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 5: tens among millennials. And so we can't blame things like 121 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 5: the COVID pandemic for the sex recession. There is clearly 122 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 5: some underlying thing that is going on before we were 123 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 5: all locked down. 124 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 4: So how did you try to get to the bottom 125 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 4: of this? 126 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: Like how I guess was your methodology different from just 127 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: panics clickbait? 128 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 5: Like I like how you assume that it is different 129 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 5: than panic clickbait. But I do think, well, one of 130 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 5: the things I did is I interviewed more than one 131 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 5: hundred young people under thirty about their thoughts on sex 132 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 5: and their experiences with it and their approach to it. 133 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 5: And these were conversations that lasted on average ninety minutes, 134 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 5: and I found people from all across the country, from 135 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 5: all walks of life. I wouldn't say it is scientifically 136 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 5: representative of the United States, because there was in particular 137 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 5: an over indexing on activists, people who are involved in 138 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 5: fighting for abortion rights, against abortion rights for LGBTQ plus 139 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 5: rights against sexual assault. Because I wanted to understand what 140 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 5: drives young people to want to shape the sex lives 141 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 5: of other people in their peer group and to shape 142 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 5: the policies and practices around sex. I also just dug 143 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 5: very deeply into the research that exists on young people's 144 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 5: relationship with sex, and on their relationship with things like 145 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 5: social media objectification, and on their relationship with porn. And 146 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 5: then the final thing I would highlight that I think 147 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 5: sort of makes the book rise above like a sex 148 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 5: panic or a moral panic, is that I spend a 149 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 5: lot of time, frankly, talking about something that is kind 150 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 5: of unsexy, which is policy, because I think that we 151 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 5: tend to think about what's going on with young people 152 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 5: as being a private matter. It's something that sex in 153 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 5: general is something that happens between two people in a bedroom. 154 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 5: But in reality, the terms of sex, and particularly the 155 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 5: terms of what happens when sex goes wrong, those terms 156 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 5: are set for us in courtrooms and school board meetings 157 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 5: and congress and state legislators and the White House, and 158 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 5: so I wanted to peel back the curtain on the 159 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 5: ways that, even if you don't realize it, policy is 160 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 5: impacting your ability to live out your sex life the 161 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 5: way you want to. 162 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: So, you know, you spoke to one hundred people, like 163 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: what are the factors stopping gen Z from having sex? 164 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 5: There is definitely no one answer to this. Unfortunately, I 165 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 5: wish there was. I wish I could say this is 166 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 5: the issue, and this is what we need to address. 167 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 5: But I think some of the biggest culprits behind the 168 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 5: sexor session are definitely smartphones on social media. We can 169 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 5: trace a lot of trends in young people's mental health 170 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 5: back to twenty ten, which is around the same time 171 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 5: that we all got smartphones that had social media on them. 172 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 5: I think we can look at things like the overturning 173 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 5: of Roe V. Wade as actually having quite a big 174 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 5: impact on young people's sex life. Sixteen percent of gen 175 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 5: z ers are now more reluctant to date since the 176 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 5: overturning of A V. Wade, which is a huge number. 177 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 5: And I think we also have to look at the 178 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 5: things like sex education we have had over the last 179 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 5: two decades, an enormous amount of money being directed towards 180 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 5: absence only sex sit by the federal government. The federal 181 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 5: government has in fact spent more than two billion dollars 182 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 5: on apps it's only sex education. And the thing about 183 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 5: absence only sex said is it doesn't tend to work. 184 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 5: It doesn't actually tend to lead people to delay sex. 185 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 5: People who undergo federally funded sex said tend to have 186 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 5: sex at the same time as people who didn't undergo 187 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 5: that sex said, and I should say absence only sex 188 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 5: said and have as many sexual partners. But it can 189 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 5: very much pathologize sex, and it can create this constant 190 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 5: sense of anxiety around sex. And I think that that is, 191 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 5: if anything, maybe the greatest culprit here is that all 192 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 5: of these things have combined to create this miasma of 193 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 5: anxiety around sex and to make sex incredibly fraught and 194 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 5: make people just not want to engage with it. 195 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: And so it's not even so much like abstinence as 196 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: it is deferring sex just because it seems too complicated now. 197 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 5: Yeah, or going without sex over time, because there are 198 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 5: young people are going without sex for longer periods of time, 199 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 5: They are spending more time absent between sexual partners. And 200 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 5: I think you know this is if you look at 201 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 5: sex said and what's gone on there. You know, since 202 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 5: only sex, I cannot deal with all the things that 203 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 5: have happened in sex over the last twenty years. It 204 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 5: can't talk about the spread of internet porn because it 205 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 5: wants a percent of that internet porn doesn't exist. 206 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 4: It can't talk. 207 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 5: About how social media might affect your body image because 208 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 5: it doesn't want to even address the fact that young 209 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 5: people have bodies that lead them to have wants and 210 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 5: desires and needs. And so we're creating a system where 211 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 5: the education that young people are receiving in schools is 212 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 5: increasingly untethered from reality and makes them more vulnerable to 213 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 5: not know just how to handle anything that has to 214 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 5: do with sex, let alone. 215 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 4: The act of sex itself and having safe sex. 216 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: So this is a tech podcast, so I have to 217 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: go a little bit deeper into this idea of you know, 218 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: smartphones and social media as having an impact on the 219 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: sex recession. Are there any stories that you heard while 220 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: reporting for this book that exemplify how social media and 221 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: smartphones have contributed to this trend or to this recession. 222 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, there are lot of stories I heard, in particular 223 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 5: about how young people were feeling about their bodies because 224 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 5: of social media, because I think one of the main 225 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 5: things that social media does, particularly for young girls and women, 226 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 5: is it makes you see your body as a sexual 227 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 5: object that's being evaluated. So you're constantly measuring your desirability 228 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 5: by things like likes and follower counts and matches, and 229 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 5: it really lays bare a lot of the dynamics that 230 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 5: have always got on dating, but that we can now 231 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 5: quantify because we're seeing it play out on apps. So, 232 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 5: for example, one young woman talk to me about how 233 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 5: she is of Indian descent and had seen videos where 234 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 5: men were asked questions like what race wouldn't you date? 235 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 5: And it was first black women, she said, and then 236 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 5: it was Indian women, and it made her feel ugly. 237 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 5: It made her feel terrible about herself. And in fact, 238 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 5: this young woman, at least by the time I spoke 239 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 5: with her, had not had sex. And the ultimate reason 240 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 5: that she hadn't had sex and that she hadn't dated, 241 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 5: even though she is straight and she's interested in having sex, 242 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 5: is because she was afraid that the men she would 243 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 5: encounter would be in cells. She felt like the Insul 244 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 5: ideology has so permeated the ways that men and women 245 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 5: interact and the ways that she's seen them interact online 246 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 5: that she just feels like she can't trust men at 247 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 5: this point, and so she's opting out of dating entirely. 248 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 2: And the reason she knows what an in cel is 249 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: is because of the Internet, correct. 250 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, I mean in cells are very much a 251 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 5: subculture that has come to prominence because the Internet gives 252 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 5: them places to lurk. And I have, as I've said, 253 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 5: I've covered sex and gender for eight plus years. I 254 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 5: have seen some really horrendous things said online about women 255 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 5: through doing that work, and I have to say that 256 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 5: in cel forms are the most gruesome place on the Internet. 257 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 5: But the thing is that I also think the ways 258 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 5: that insuls talk has permeated the larger. 259 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 4: Lexicon at this point. 260 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 5: Like if you think about things like max you know, 261 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 5: the thing that Insul's talk about is looks maxing, which 262 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 5: is that you change the way you look so that 263 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 5: you can be more stereotypically attractive. Now we just say 264 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 5: things like maxing. Or I was talking to another friend 265 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 5: the other day and talking about La Boo Boos, and 266 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 5: I said that I had been labooboo pill and then 267 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 5: I was like, wait, I'm using in cel language because 268 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 5: Instel's talk about being red billed, they're black piled, And 269 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 5: this is just how we talk now, and I think 270 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 5: we don't think critically about the fact that we have 271 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 5: normalized this manospheric language and what it means that we 272 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 5: now treat these ideas and attitudes as just being an 273 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 5: everyday thing. 274 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 2: So I'm remembering, like when I was in must have 275 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: been fifth grade, that internet pornography seemed to be everywhere. 276 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 2: And I was in fifth grade, you know, around the 277 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: year two thousand. In what way does just the insane 278 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: accessibility of pornography and that just the existence of it 279 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 2: affect this sex recession at all? 280 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 5: For gen Z, that is a great question, And the 281 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 5: answer is that we don't really know, because the science 282 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 5: on porn is so muddy. You can find studies on 283 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 5: porn that say basically anything you want to hear. And 284 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 5: so one of the things I was really interested in 285 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 5: doing in this book is understanding not necessarily what porn 286 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 5: does from a scientific perspective, but what people think porn does. 287 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 5: And I had originally thought that young people on the 288 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 5: left be more warm towards pornography, would have sort of 289 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 5: more tolerance of it. And I thought that people young 290 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 5: people on the right would be very anti porn, But 291 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 5: what I found is that in general, young people are 292 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 5: profoundly anti porn, and they feel like porn has very 293 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 5: much warped their sexuality. In particular, they feel like it 294 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 5: is normalized quote unquote rough sex and actions like choking. 295 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 5: If you were under forty, you were twice as likely 296 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 5: to have been choked during sex compared to people who 297 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 5: are older, and oftentimes that choking is not done consensually. 298 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 5: And I should also say, you know, porn is not 299 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 5: a monolith. There is plenty of pretty violent porn. But 300 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 5: there weren't a sizable number of interviewees, particularly who were 301 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 5: young women or who were queer, who really enjoyed written porn. 302 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 5: And they had come to written porn through online portals 303 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 5: like what pat They got really into fan fiction, and 304 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 5: then they found erotica, and then they found romance novels, 305 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 5: and they felt like, because that kind of porn is 306 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 5: typically written with the idea that it's not for a systemail, 307 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 5: straight audience, that that kind of pornography much more closely 308 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 5: mirrored their desires and made them feel much more accepted, 309 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 5: And so I do think the Internet is not bad 310 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 5: for sex in general. I think it can be really 311 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 5: great for making people who have not typically been in 312 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 5: power feel like their desires and their identities are much 313 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 5: more common and much more accepted than they might believe 314 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 5: from their immediate community. 315 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: But it's also not leading to them having more sex. 316 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 2: It's leading to them sort of reading more erotic fan fiction. 317 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean why most young people do end up 318 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 5: having sex, to be clearer, but it is interesting that 319 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 5: they're sticking with porn, and I think part of this 320 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 5: comes down to questions of willingness to be vulnerable, willingness 321 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 5: to take risks, willingness to potentially be rejected, because porn 322 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 5: will never reject you. Porn is going to portray the 323 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 5: most perfect It's going to give you just the best 324 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 5: possible sexual experience because no one else is involved with it. 325 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 5: And that's true of both video porn and romance novels, 326 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 5: because they're both selling this fantasy of this partner who 327 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 5: knows exactly what you do with your body to make 328 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 5: you have a screaming. 329 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: Orgasm after the break is tech robbing us of the 330 00:16:44,680 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: ability to be vulnerable stay with us. In your book, 331 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: you talk about how vulnerability and empathy are essential to 332 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 2: developing an open and honest connection. What is it about 333 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: gen Z's tech environment that makes that kind of vulnerability 334 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: and empathy difficult. 335 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 5: Well, they're surrounded by tech in a way that past 336 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 5: generations were not. Most people were not constantly able to 337 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 5: go onto the internet at all hours of day and night, 338 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 5: and so on one level, they're simply spending more time on 339 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 5: their phones and online than past generations. But the other 340 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 5: thing that I think is going on in young people's 341 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 5: tech environment that makes them reluctant to be vulnerable is 342 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 5: the extent to which they are constantly aware of the 343 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 5: persona that they're selling online. We've all grown up with 344 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 5: this idea. And I say we because I think late 345 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 5: millennials have grown up with this too. I was in 346 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 5: high school when Facebook came a thing, and I had 347 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 5: Facebook for my entirety of my high school career. But 348 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 5: you are constantly aware of the story that you're selling online, 349 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 5: and the story that you're selling online about yourself, the brand, 350 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 5: the persona that is like a happier, healthier, more sexy 351 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 5: version of yourself and you don't ever want cracks in 352 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 5: that to show. But there is research that shows that 353 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 5: the higher you score in self objectification measures, which is 354 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 5: to say, the more you think of your body as 355 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 5: an object, which social media tends to make people do. 356 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 5: It tends to make them basically constantly surveil themselves and 357 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 5: constantly see themselves from the outside, constantly be gauging their 358 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 5: sexual attractiveness. The higher you score and self objectification, the 359 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 5: more likely you are to not want to have sex 360 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 5: because you've viewed sex as yet another chance for you 361 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 5: to be judged and found wanting. 362 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 4: That's really interesting. 363 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 5: There was one young woman who I was talking with 364 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 5: who was talking about how she felt compelled to post 365 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 5: bikini photos of herself on Instagram when she was in 366 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 5: high school, and when she would take these photos with 367 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 5: her friends, her friends would constantly say things like, your 368 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 5: boobs look so good, your hips look so good, your 369 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 5: legs look so good. And on one hand, that might 370 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 5: seem complimentary, but on the other what it's really doing 371 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 5: is it's really comparing. It's really making her aware of 372 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 5: what she has or what she doesn't have in comparison 373 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 5: to other people, and how to portray it to the 374 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 5: best advantage. And there's a ton of research, some of 375 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 5: which has been conducted by Meta and was kept secret 376 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 5: from the general public, that shows just how much being 377 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 5: on Instagram can erow young people's sets of self esteem. 378 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 5: And the thing was this young woman as we were talking, 379 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 5: she was originally saying, I don't know why I felt 380 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 5: so compelled to post these photos, and then she said 381 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 5: it was for men. I realized now it was for men. 382 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 5: I wanted men to see me and to desire me. 383 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 5: And the thing is that it works. She's not crazy. 384 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 5: I was talking to another young man who was telling 385 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 5: me about how he'd be scrolling through Instagram and he'd 386 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 5: see one girl clothes and then he'd see another girl 387 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 5: who's in a bikini, and he was probably gonna like 388 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 5: that girl in a bikini more. And so it's this 389 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 5: constant sense of comparison that is rooted in reality that 390 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 5: is making young people feel like, oh, I can never 391 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 5: ever be vulnerable because I have to be better than 392 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 5: everybody else. And everybody else isn't just your peers. It's 393 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 5: also celebrities who have glam teams who we just cannot 394 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 5: compete with. 395 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 2: And we're just exposed to so many more images now 396 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: than we were before. I mean, yes, people have always 397 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: been exposed to images of celebrities or models, but it's 398 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: the kind of accessibility of images and the volume of 399 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: images that has changed. 400 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 5: It seems, yeah, you're just ambiently being fed these images, 401 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 5: even if you're not necessarily going to look for it. 402 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 4: If you're just scrolling the news, you're. 403 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 5: Probably going to see ads four things that are tailored 404 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 5: to you, by the way, so they're going to probably 405 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 5: show you things that you would want or how you 406 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 5: would want to look in a way that past generations 407 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 5: just did not have to contend with. And of course 408 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 5: there's also dating apps, which is you're very literally trying 409 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 5: to sell yourself as a desirable person. And everybody does 410 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 5: that all the time in dating, but you think about 411 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 5: it so much more when you're constructing a dating app profile. 412 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 5: And so people are increasingly aware of their place in 413 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 5: a sexual hierarchy and then trying to jockey with one another, 414 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 5: and we can see that online and that's unfortunate because 415 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 5: I think all of us would really like to live 416 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 5: in a place where we don't have a sexual hierarchy. 417 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: You talk about this a little bit, And I think 418 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: it's true that gen Z, more than other age groups, 419 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: are very aware of the politics of sex. How much 420 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: does that have to do with the Internet. 421 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 5: There's no way to separate the Internet from young people's 422 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 5: political awareness. I think in particular that's because of Me Too, 423 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 5: which was an Internet born phenomenon. I asking people to 424 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 5: tell me about cultural political events that shape their proach 425 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 5: to sex, and almost all of them said me too, 426 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 5: and said that scrolling through those stories about women's experiences 427 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 5: really opened their eyes to the ways that the personal 428 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 5: is political. What I found really interesting about the Me 429 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 5: Too movement if you look at what happened afterwards, is 430 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 5: the main legal reforms that really came out of it 431 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 5: were changes to NDA laws and better HR trainings, and 432 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 5: those are things that benefit millennial and gen X women 433 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 5: more because we are working. But the thing that filtered 434 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 5: down to young people gen Z people who aren't working 435 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 5: was just the sense that sexual assault and harassment is everywhere, 436 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 5: which is unfortunately true, But they didn't actually have a 437 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 5: lot of institutional resources that came out of the Meta 438 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 5: movement that gave them the ability to fight back when 439 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 5: things went wrong, and that created a sense of anxiety, 440 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 5: because then you're walking around feeling like the world is 441 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 5: incredibly dangerous and feeling like no one cares and no 442 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 5: one's here to help you. And that was a really 443 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 5: unfortunate thing I think that I encountered in my research, 444 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 5: and I was shocked and saddened by the fact that 445 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 5: the vast majority of the young women I interviewed had 446 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 5: been sexually assaulted in some way. 447 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 4: That was not a question I asked. 448 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 5: It just came up over and over and over again, 449 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 5: that young women had endured some kind of sexual violation. 450 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 2: Obviously, your book is pretty centered around gen Z, but 451 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: all of these factors that we're talking about, you know, 452 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: social media, Internet, pornography. I just know for my friends 453 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: and myself, and I also know for older generations who 454 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,479 Speaker 2: have now become more incrementally aware of what you can 455 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 2: do on Instagram, what you can do with Phase two, 456 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: and what you can do on zoom filters in the workforce, 457 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: these sorts of things have to be affecting older generations 458 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 2: as well. 459 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 4: It's not just gen Z. 460 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 5: No, I think gen Z might be particularly vulnerable because 461 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 5: they've grown up with it and because they are just younger. 462 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 5: And I think when you're younger, you tend to spend 463 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 5: more time obsessing over your appearance. 464 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 4: But absolutely this affects older people. So you know, you've 465 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 4: done all of this research on gen z. 466 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: Is there anything that kind of keeps you up at 467 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 2: night after writing this book? 468 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 5: The thing that keeps me up at night is the 469 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 5: direction of our policy around sex, or the abdication of 470 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 5: policy around sex. You know, what kind of legislation have 471 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 5: we even seen around social media? The Surgeon General under 472 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,239 Speaker 5: Biden talked about the fact that we had basically just 473 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 5: let people start driving without a license by letting young 474 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 5: people go on social media, and we have not put 475 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 5: any guardrails up. We haven't even really tried to study 476 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 5: what's going on on a federal level. And so the 477 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 5: fact that politicians are not seemingly interested in figuring out 478 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 5: this issue, and frankly seemed to be oftentimes too old 479 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 5: to grasp what's going on or to be interested in 480 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 5: what's going on, that keeps me up at night. I 481 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 5: have been reporting on abortion rights since twenty sixteen, and 482 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 5: I think I've been telling people that roev Wade was 483 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 5: going to be overturned since twenty eighteen. 484 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 4: And what did they say? To you, they didn't believe me. 485 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 5: Why not They just thought it wasn't possible, or they 486 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 5: said oh yeah, like you're right, But then they didn't 487 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 5: factor that information into their lives. And if people agree 488 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,239 Speaker 5: with roe v Wade being overturned, that's one thing that 489 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 5: is totally people's right to believe that. 490 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 4: But most people don't agree with rov Wade being overturned. 491 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 5: And what I wanted to do in the book was 492 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 5: outline the fact that the overturning of Rovi Wade was 493 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 5: not an outlier event. It was part of a crusade, 494 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 5: a campaign by particular right wing actors to make it difficult, 495 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 5: if not dangerous, to have sex that isn't straight, that 496 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 5: isn't mary, that isn't potentially procreative, because it's being practiced 497 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 5: without access to abortion and with subpar access to birth control. 498 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 5: And most people, I think are accepting of sex beyond 499 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 5: that pony. Most people think premarital sex is okay. Most 500 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 5: people think same sex sex is okay. Most people want 501 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 5: more than absence only sex education for their children. Most 502 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 5: people believe that there is a First Amendment right to 503 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 5: some extent to access porn or to make porn, and 504 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 5: so what I really wanted to do with the book 505 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 5: is lay out the way is that the policy that 506 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 5: we're seeing on sex, particularly online, with things like porn bands, 507 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 5: or particularly with things like abortion, those policies are unfolding 508 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 5: right now, and we are heading towards more kinds of 509 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 5: seismic events like the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and 510 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 5: people just aren't paying attention. 511 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 2: What are some of the positive things you learned from 512 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: doing all of this research and were there moments in 513 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: your research that were very heartening or very hopeful for 514 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: the future of this generation aging into the sort of 515 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 2: predominant family creating, job inhabiting demographic. 516 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, there was a lot that I found to be 517 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 5: very heartening in talking to young people about their relationship 518 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 5: with technology. For people whose desires or bodies don't match 519 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 5: what we traditionally think of when it comes to romance 520 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 5: and sex, who don't necessarily look like Hallmark movie leads, 521 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 5: the Internet has been so key to making them feel 522 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 5: like they were normal, to making them feel like they 523 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 5: could be accepted, to making them feel like they could 524 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 5: come out and be loved and find acceptance, and you know, 525 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 5: particularly as sex ed in schools, really profoundly fails queer 526 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 5: and trans young people. The Internet has stepped in to 527 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 5: provide an alternate sex education that is so helpful to 528 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 5: them not only understanding themselves, but to practicing safe sex. 529 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 5: You know, young people learn about things like prep pre exposure, 530 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 5: post exposure prophylaxis, which products against HIV AIDS from the internet. 531 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 5: They learn about how to put condoms on from the Internet. 532 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 5: So the Internet has provided a sex education that we 533 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 5: are increasingly not seeing in schools. And some of that 534 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 5: sex education is negative, but a lot of that sex 535 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 5: education is critical and very helpful, and it's the only 536 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 5: place to find it is online at this point. The 537 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 5: other really positive thing that I think I found through 538 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 5: talking with young people about the Internet is I do 539 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 5: think that it is very much contributed to their political mobilization. 540 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 5: It helped them organize, It helped them see the political 541 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 5: valance of their sex lives, and it helped them take 542 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 5: action against it. Whether that was through setting up Instagram 543 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 5: accounts that collected stories of sexual violence and urged people 544 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 5: to act on them, whether that was through social media 545 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 5: call outs to set up marches and protests, or it 546 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 5: was through basically seeing videos of things like police brutality. 547 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 5: The Internet makes it much more possible for young people 548 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 5: to be aware of the world around them and to 549 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 5: be able to act on what they think is wrong, 550 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 5: and I think that we cannot discount how important that 551 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 5: has been to shaping young people's view. 552 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 4: Of the world. 553 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 2: Well, Carter, thank you so much. I really appreciate this. 554 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 4: This is fun. Absolutely for text Stuff. 555 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm caar Price and I'm as Amusian. 556 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 4: This episode was. 557 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: Produced by Eliza Dennis, Julia Nutter, Malis Slaughter, and Tyler Hill, 558 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: who was executive produced by me ozwa Oshin and Kate 559 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcasts. Kyle 560 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 2: Murdoch mixed this episode and wrote our theme song. Join 561 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: us on Friday for the weekend tech Oz and I 562 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: will run through the tech headlines you may have missed. 563 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 4: Please rate, review, and reach out to 564 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: Us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.