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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel

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Speaker 1: one thirty two. It just never ends. It's amazing how crimes,

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Speaker 1: violent crimes have ripple effects that go on and on

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Speaker 1: and on for years. And this case is no different

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Speaker 1: from the abduction and murder still unresolved of a beautiful

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Speaker 1: American girl on spring Break, Natalie Holloway. Then comes Tausiana,

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Speaker 1: Florida's another murder and now a third bloody death stemming

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Speaker 1: out of the Natalie Holloway debacle. I Nancy Grace, this

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. It

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Speaker 1: all starts right here. Listen, John Ludwig, friend of your Vanderslute, John,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, joining us to not

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Speaker 1: exclusively out of d C. Your a friend of yourn Vanderslouts.

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Speaker 1: Are you surprised that he's actually played guilty to murder? Well,

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Speaker 1: he really didn't have a choice in this situation. Uh

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Speaker 1: so I'm just hoping for the best. Well, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean he didn't have a choice. I mean, even

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Speaker 1: I can't dispute the evidence he obviously murdered her. Uh

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it wasn't provoked, and he I

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Speaker 1: believe he did a postmatic stress syndrome. But what do

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Speaker 1: you mean provoked? You think Stephanie Tassiana provoked your Vanderslut

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Speaker 1: into murdering her? What do you mean by that? I

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Speaker 1: do believe so if she got the email and figured

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Speaker 1: out he was involved in Natalie stuff, she should have

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Speaker 1: just immediately left the room and not confronted him. But

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Speaker 1: how did that provoke him? That she said, WHOA? Are

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Speaker 1: you the one that people believe kill Natalie? How did

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Speaker 1: that provoke him into murder? It enraged him obviously, so

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Speaker 1: she she shouldn't have done that. I don't think she

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that, Okay, Johnick No, But do do

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Speaker 1: you do you realize is how crazy you sund right

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Speaker 1: now that she basically deserved the murder because she said, whoa,

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Speaker 1: you're the guy they suspect that murdered Natalie Holloway, that

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Speaker 1: she shouldn't have said anything, that it's her fault she

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Speaker 1: didn't leave the hotel room. Do you realize how crazy

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Speaker 1: you sound? I'm not saying she deserved it, but she

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Speaker 1: she definitely could have prevented it by just leaving immediately.

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Speaker 1: And he was suffering from postmatic stress and I didn't

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Speaker 1: ask you about the postal max stress syndrome. I'm asking

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Speaker 1: you about Stephanie Flores. You just said she provoked him

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Speaker 1: into murder. Have you seen the crime scene. Her blood

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Speaker 1: was smeared from the bottom of the the wall to

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Speaker 1: the top of the ceiling. She's covered in bruises, half naked.

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Speaker 1: He stole thousands of dollars from her and said his

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Speaker 1: only problem was the money was covered in blood. And

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Speaker 1: you're telling me that she provoked him. I believe so, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Why well, if you're in a room with someone, what

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Speaker 1: if you're in a room with someone you believe might

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Speaker 1: have been involved in a murder, you don't stay there

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Speaker 1: and talk to them about it. You immediately leave the area. Well,

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Speaker 1: don't you think that it's more his fault since he

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Speaker 1: beat her to smithereens, strangled her and left her and

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Speaker 1: pull up her own blood as he shouldn't have reacted

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Speaker 1: that way. But react you think I murder? It's a reaction. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're just helping for the best, hopefully gets out in

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Speaker 1: ten years or less. Why is that the best? Why

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Speaker 1: shouldn't you get the death penalty? Oh? Absolutely not, absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: These are two there's two dead bodies. Two women are dead,

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Speaker 1: because I am Even if Natalie is dead, you can't

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Speaker 1: prove that he killed her. I didn't say whether it

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Speaker 1: to be proved or not. I said it's true. There's

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Speaker 1: no proof, there's no way to say that. It's so

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Speaker 1: here in the face. Have you seen the photos shown

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Speaker 1: the photos, Liz of the crime scene drenched in blood.

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Speaker 1: You're saying that you hope for the best that he

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Speaker 1: gets out and a third of his sentences that what

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Speaker 1: you just said. Yeah, I believe he made the crime

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Speaker 1: scene look worse than it initially was, like you said,

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Speaker 1: to make it look like someone try to rape or

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Speaker 1: something like that. So I believe afterwards the money was

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Speaker 1: just an afterthought. He didn't. Let me tell you something.

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Speaker 1: Her having her pants pulled off is the least of

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Speaker 1: Stephanie's problems. I doubt that's what she would be worried about.

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Speaker 1: She was brutally murdyred. As a matter of fact that

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Speaker 1: Dr Bill Lloyd Board certified physician and pathologists. You have

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Speaker 1: reviewed Stephanie Tassiana's medical examiner's report. The murder was heinous. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: she was a victim of severe violent trauma in addition

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Speaker 1: to the bruis is in the scratches and the cuts,

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Speaker 1: she also sustained a fracture to one of her cervical

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Speaker 1: vertebrate and a young, healthy woman, it's one of the

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Speaker 1: densest bones in the body. Simple strangulation won't break a

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Speaker 1: cervical vertebrae. So to you, John Ludwick, friend of yourn Vanderslute,

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Speaker 1: he used powerful, almost superhuman force to murder a defenseless woman.

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Speaker 1: And you're saying you hope for the best. It was

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Speaker 1: a crime of passionate heat at the moment type struggle

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Speaker 1: and stuff happens, So what do you mean, stuff happens?

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Speaker 1: He robbed her and took her money, and they killed

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Speaker 1: her so she wouldn't be able to testify to it.

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Speaker 1: That is what he told his lawyer. What's heat at

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Speaker 1: the moment? I believe it just all happened when she

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Speaker 1: confront of him about being involved. It just inspired out

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Speaker 1: of control with me right now, is a friend of

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Speaker 1: yourn Vanderslut. You keep saying over and over that Stephanie

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Speaker 1: Tassiana quote creative a killer? How can a woman, a

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Speaker 1: defenseless woman, create a killer out of a whole King

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Speaker 1: Dutchman like you're in vander slut. Why does she create

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Speaker 1: the killer? That's what I want to hear from you, Ludwick. Well,

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Speaker 1: she she put herself in the situation, and as soon

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Speaker 1: as she found out who he was, she she should

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Speaker 1: have left. She shouldn't have started an argument and fighting

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Speaker 1: with him and being an isolated area where you know,

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Speaker 1: how did she start an argument? All she did was say,

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Speaker 1: even by his own words, hey, you're the guy suspected

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Speaker 1: with Natalie Holloway. How's that starting a fight? Ludwick. If

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Speaker 1: I was a woman and I was in her situation,

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Speaker 1: I surely wouldn't have stood around to ask him that question.

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Speaker 1: I would have got out of there. Okay, So John Ludwick, uh,

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Speaker 1: And I'm speaking now not as a lawyer, but as

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Speaker 1: a victim of violent crime myself. You're saying that the

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Speaker 1: murder victim who endured a brutal beating, a superhuman strangulation

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Speaker 1: where her neck bone was actually crushed, the room covered

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Speaker 1: in blood, her clothes off of her post mortem, and

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Speaker 1: left that way to be found answer her fault. Sir,

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Speaker 1: You know what cut is, Mike, John Ludwick, I reserve

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Speaker 1: this for very, very food few people, but you, sir,

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Speaker 1: are a fool and what you have said sets victims

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Speaker 1: rights back maybe a couple of hundred years. Take him

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Speaker 1: off the screen. I don't want to look at him anymore.

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Speaker 1: You were listening to me on CNN hl In interviewing

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Speaker 1: a young man very close associate with your Vander Salute

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Speaker 1: who is now dead. But listen to the nine one

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Speaker 1: one call. What does it reveal? I thought I was

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Speaker 1: going to listen. He had a life to my Ni.

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Speaker 1: I got a nice from them. At least he's crazy.

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Speaker 1: He's been talking. That was the nine one one call

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Speaker 1: on Ludwig Your Vander sluts good buddy with me. Cheryl

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Speaker 1: McCall m Karen Stark, Astley Willcott, John Limley, and Art Harris.

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Speaker 1: Art Harris, What happened? Nancy? This was a shocking moment

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Speaker 1: in this whole saga when the best friend close friend

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Speaker 1: of Juren Vander Salute, who has been allegedly stalking his

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Speaker 1: ex girlfriend, confronts her in the driveway of her house

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Speaker 1: and they get into a struggle. He pulls out a knife,

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Speaker 1: trying to kidnap her. She later tells police, and she

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Speaker 1: wrestles for her life, grabs the knife and stabs him.

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Speaker 1: He is then later found leading to death, taken to

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Speaker 1: a hospital and dies. It's almost as if Natalie is

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Speaker 1: coming back from the grave to to send a message.

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Speaker 1: This is Juran's best friend, and now he has tried

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Speaker 1: to harm another woman and he is dead in a

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Speaker 1: Cheryl mccolluman, director of the Coal Case Research Institute. You

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Speaker 1: know what, I really didn't fully introduce all my guests.

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Speaker 1: Art Harris is with us. I believe it's a five

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Speaker 1: time Emmy Award winning investigative journalist and reporter. Cheryl McCullum

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Speaker 1: with as director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: you know we've said it a million times. Birds of

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Speaker 1: a feather, flock together, laid down with the dog, wake

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Speaker 1: up with the flea. There you go with your in

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Speaker 1: Vanderslute and Ludwick, best buddies. I mean, are you surprised,

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Speaker 1: Not at all, Not at all, You know, Nancy, Early

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Speaker 1: in my career, John Karls gave me some great advice

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Speaker 1: and he said, your victim today will be your suspect tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Your suspect today will be your victim tomorrow. Here you go.

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Speaker 1: You cannot run in that lifestyle without thinking it's going

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Speaker 1: to come back to you. Listen. Tell me how do

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Speaker 1: you know you're in vanderslut Um? I met him in

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Speaker 1: a Ruba a few months back when he came back

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Speaker 1: for his father's memorial towards the end of February. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: how much time did you did? You spend a fair

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Speaker 1: bit of time with him? Yeah, just about every day

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Speaker 1: for about three and a half months I was with him.

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Speaker 1: So did you know that he was the suspect and

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Speaker 1: the death of America girl Natalie Halloway. Yes, that's how

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Speaker 1: I recognized him when we first met and we started

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Speaker 1: hanging out. May I ask what attracted you to a

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Speaker 1: potential murderer? Uh? Well, he was never proven guilty, so

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't call him that. Maybe a suspect, but I mean, okay,

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Speaker 1: how is your phrasing now? I asked you what attracted

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Speaker 1: you to a murder suspect? I mean he seemed like

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Speaker 1: he'd be a cool guy, and he ended up being

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Speaker 1: what the media makes him out to be as far

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Speaker 1: from the truth. He's a he's a good friend. Please

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Speaker 1: please put Mr Ludwick cups. Okay, what were you saying, dear?

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Speaker 1: I said what the media portrays him as is far

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Speaker 1: from the truth. He's a good, good person and a

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Speaker 1: good friend, and he's not the serial killer, sociopath, psychopath.

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Speaker 1: You guys, the media makes him to be okay. But

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Speaker 1: you know, Karen start with me, renowned New York psychologist

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Speaker 1: joining us, Karen Start, I've just got to say, when

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Speaker 1: I worked the streets to and I don't mean that

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Speaker 1: in a hooker way, When I beat the street to

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Speaker 1: find yeah good good to know that trying to find witnesses.

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Speaker 1: I mean I would be out and I still you've

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Speaker 1: heard the story million times out there. I could not

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Speaker 1: afford a winter coat. I had the worst coat. I

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Speaker 1: don't know where that thing came from. But I would

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Speaker 1: be out there and uh, trying to find witnesses, trying

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Speaker 1: to deliver subpoenas, tromping around all through the worst areas

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Speaker 1: of town. And I would meet people that would end

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Speaker 1: up being witnesses. But you know what else, Karen, I

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Speaker 1: considered them friends. I remember that I drove around town

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Speaker 1: I don't know how long, for weeks and weeks and

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Speaker 1: weeks with a convicted rapist in my car because he

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Speaker 1: was a witness helping me find somebody. During that time,

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Speaker 1: I found out more about his rape conviction that he

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Speaker 1: got when he was seventeen and his victim was his

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old girlfriend. They were dating and he got

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Speaker 1: charged and convicted of rape. Now he's like in his

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Speaker 1: thirties and it never had another conviction or problem since then.

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Speaker 1: And I looked it up, and that is what happened, Karen.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you just don't know when you when

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Speaker 1: Cheryl says you're suspect your victim, you don't know who

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Speaker 1: these people are. So I don't lump suspects in a

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Speaker 1: big pot like everybody thinks I do, because people that

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Speaker 1: have been convicted very often turned out to be some

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Speaker 1: of the finest people. I knew, the best witnesses. I

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Speaker 1: knew that that's that's the truth. But it also has

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Speaker 1: a grain of truth in it. What Cheryl McCollum just said,

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Speaker 1: we thought this guy was going to lead us to

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Speaker 1: the truth about Natalie. You know, I fell for and

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Speaker 1: I thought it could be true. It was all lies,

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Speaker 1: and now he tried to stab somebody, Karen. And if

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Speaker 1: you take a look at what Chryls said where that

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Speaker 1: people hang out together, this makes perfect sense. Sooner or

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Speaker 1: later something was going to happen. They were he was

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Speaker 1: best friends with your own he lied. She didn't make

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense. The girlfriend was not mentally stable

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Speaker 1: as far as I could tell. Well, I mean, why

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Speaker 1: would you day that? But well, but wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: I want to follow up on what Karen start just said.

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Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott with me, juvenile judge and founder of a

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Speaker 1: brand new website. Tell me about your website, Ashley sure,

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Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com, Child crime watch dot com.

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Speaker 1: Ashley did. Karen was just talking about hanging out with

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Speaker 1: and the girl must have had mental instability. A lot

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Speaker 1: of women date guys or mary eyes that are bad news,

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Speaker 1: as my mom would say, and they're the only ones

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Speaker 1: that can't see it. Yeah. Absolutely, I gotta say often

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Speaker 1: women make bad choices and dumb choices when it comes

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Speaker 1: to affairs of the heart, over and over. Well. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, Alan Duke, uh, you have found

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Speaker 1: a very interesting interview of the victim in this case.

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Speaker 1: And for those of you just joining us, this guy,

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Speaker 1: John Christopher Ludwig made headlines when he said he helped

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Speaker 1: Yourn vander Slute dispose of Natalie Holloway's body. This guy,

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Speaker 1: thirty two years old, of Port Charlotte, Florida was stabbed

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Speaker 1: dead in the last days. Is he tried to kidnap

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Speaker 1: a woman from her vehicle, say police. Now he had

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Speaker 1: been roommates with her at one point they had a

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Speaker 1: romantic relationship. She didn't want that anymore, but he would

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Speaker 1: have nothing to do with it and basically ambushed her

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Speaker 1: as she was getting out of her car going into

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Speaker 1: her home. And that's a nightmare, you know. I try

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Speaker 1: to tell the children in parking garages and parking lots

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Speaker 1: be careful. So tell me about what she had to

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Speaker 1: say Alan Die when she was asked, why are you

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Speaker 1: dating a guy that's tied up with yourne Vander salute?

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Speaker 1: Basically she said she just didn't have anybody else to

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Speaker 1: hang out with and she was going to stay with

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Speaker 1: him even though he is a dangerous man of bizarre exchange.

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Speaker 1: This video was made last May by Gabriel Madrigal, who

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Speaker 1: we've had on this show a couple of times. He

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Speaker 1: was the gentleman who, yeah, what a guy. He was

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Speaker 1: the gentleman who helped t. J. Wore the detective and

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Speaker 1: Dave Holloway go and yeah, yeah, yea hold on just

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Speaker 1: a moment, I had that response because I was thinking

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Speaker 1: of another player in the Natalie Holloway scenario. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: remember Gabriel, I remember very well. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. Doesn't he have a daughter that was

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Speaker 1: really ill at the time? Yeah, God bless him and

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Speaker 1: the daughter. Yes, yes, I remember him. Okay, Alan, take

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Speaker 1: a listen to what Alan Diekes telling us about buckle

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Speaker 1: your seatbelt people. I'm here with Emily hastein. Emily, Now,

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Speaker 1: why you are you around John? Because that's why I

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Speaker 1: don't know, because we hang out and together and I

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Speaker 1: don't have any other friends. Um, but do you do

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Speaker 1: you know what he's been involved in? Kind of you

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Speaker 1: know that he helped well until he gets in trouble.

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Speaker 1: It's not feels so you don't even believe it. Dude.

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Speaker 1: He tells me a different story every time to believe.

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Speaker 1: I feel like if it really happened to be in trouble.

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Speaker 1: But it did happen. But how do you know? Because

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Speaker 1: I found the body, he took me right where it was.

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Speaker 1: Do you know for sure? When he gets charged and

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Speaker 1: I be like, my dog kills somebody, you think it's funny,

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Speaker 1: Well I don't think so what about it? He kills you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Jesus. That's what I'm waiting for. It like,

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Speaker 1: you know how dumb? You know how dummy sound? I'm

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Speaker 1: stressed now, you know how really had dumb? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just I cannot comprehend a girl like you will

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Speaker 1: even try to hang around with John. How do you

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Speaker 1: out Because it's my job, it's my job. I've never

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Speaker 1: met John. I see, but I warned you not to

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Speaker 1: not to mess with John. Why I couldn't? So it

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Speaker 1: is you can walk away? What about it? What about

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Speaker 1: if he kills you? Good? You know how stupid you sound?

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Speaker 1: You know how John? You know how stupid you sound.

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Speaker 1: I think John is a good person. He just got

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Speaker 1: some steve. You're shot. What about if you die in

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Speaker 1: two weeks, I'm probably going to Oh I won't, And

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Speaker 1: if I die, it's not going to be because of John.

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Speaker 1: I can kills someone. Well, he tried to hang himself.

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Speaker 1: He's too stupid to hang him to worry about, so

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Speaker 1: I'm nothing to worry about. So Lauren is out of

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Speaker 1: the picture. Your boyfriend's out of the picture. So now

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Speaker 1: you and John are out of the picture. He just

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Speaker 1: went to jail for a minent Oh, so I don't

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Speaker 1: even I don't even get it in the John, I

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Speaker 1: didn't almost you know you're you're a path of pilot wire.

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Speaker 1: I lie all the time. I know there's but I'm

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Speaker 1: not mine. Right now, you can ask him. He's mad

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Speaker 1: about it. I don't want to get it in. So

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Speaker 1: here's my interview. What would you like to tell the

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Speaker 1: people that John? What's John? What's his petro about? John? Idiot?

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Speaker 1: That's why he did what he did. He has no brain. Lad.

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Speaker 1: He shout out drug about John to bed a little

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Speaker 1: extra cash on the side. So why do you hang

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Speaker 1: with him? Then? I don't know. I don't have anyone

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Speaker 1: not to hang out with right now. You're so shot, huh.

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Speaker 1: You can do a lot better than John. Come on, like,

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Speaker 1: give me a break. I'm looking let me look figure

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Speaker 1: it out East dot Com. I need to put my

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Speaker 1: name out there. You're so shot anyways, you cannot help.

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Speaker 1: You can out help a person like this girl right here.

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Speaker 1: You just can't help. Okay, that is crazy with me,

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Speaker 1: John Linley, Crime Stories contributing reporter. So she knew full

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Speaker 1: well who she was dating, right John, Oh, full well

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Speaker 1: without a doubt. Um, we've made mention of this documentary

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Speaker 1: that John Ludwick was featured in the Disappearance of Natalie Holloway,

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Speaker 1: a mini series which followed Natalie's father, Dave Holloway, and

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Speaker 1: his private investigator as they followed up new clues about

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Speaker 1: what might have happened to the teenager. And in this series,

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Speaker 1: Ludwig was shown explain explaining that he had crushed up

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Speaker 1: Natalie's unearthed bones so that they weren't recognizable as human,

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Speaker 1: burning the skull to get rid of hair fibers. He

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Speaker 1: was also filmed saying that after dog remains were added

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Speaker 1: to the mix, he went to the crematorium and claimed

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Speaker 1: that his pet had died. Ludwig was shown on the

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Speaker 1: documentary saying that he and Vander Salute had borrowed a

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Speaker 1: fisherman's boat and scattered the ashes at sea. You know, uh,

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Speaker 1: aren't Harris. I know that the bone scenario turned out

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Speaker 1: to be a big lie, but Art and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go to Sheryl after this. In every lie I've been told,

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Speaker 1: there is a grain, tiny grain of truth. I still

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Speaker 1: wonder if he did not have something to do with

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Speaker 1: helping on Vanderslot get rid of Nollie's body, but lied

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Speaker 1: about exactly how they did it. I mean, his details

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Speaker 1: were so I find it hard to believe he made

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Speaker 1: the whole thing up well, Nancy, and he was he

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Speaker 1: did not sound as if he were that creative. And

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Speaker 1: yet he was talking about your in paying him dollars

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Speaker 1: to find the remains and rebury them after after crushing

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Speaker 1: the skull and trying to make them unrecognizable. So uh.

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of sociopaths, psychopaths, they do change the

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Speaker 1: story and they think they're smarter than everybody else by

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Speaker 1: changing a few pieces. They don't realize what they said

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Speaker 1: before or didn't say, could come back to haunt them,

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Speaker 1: and in this case, um, I think it did. And

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Speaker 1: the guy wound up involved perpetrating violence against the next girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: amazingly similar to a gene that maybe that you're in has.

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Speaker 1: So uh. He has seen also in your interview a

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Speaker 1: few years ago defending you're in and and making excuses

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Speaker 1: for vander Salute attacking the last woman he killed, saying

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Speaker 1: that well, she provoked him by even bringing up the

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Speaker 1: fact that he had likely killed Natalie Holloway. So aren't

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Speaker 1: you that guy and that is what prompted him to

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Speaker 1: kill her? Uh? And you interviewed this lad with guy

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Speaker 1: who's defending your in as reacting to that and says, well,

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Speaker 1: she shouldn't have brought it up. It was really her fault.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that? Oh? Yeah, that was the clote

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Speaker 1: we just played earlier. I remember very well, aren't Harris,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. I want to talk to you about. I'm

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Speaker 1: not disagreeing with you about your suspect will, but you're

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Speaker 1: to me suspect that whole thing. Cheryl McCullum, I'm not

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Speaker 1: discounting your theory at all. As a matter of fact.

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Speaker 1: You know, I remember and you remember this case too,

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Speaker 1: the case of Julie Love, the kindergarten teacher that was

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Speaker 1: out jogging and um Emmanuel Hammonds and his crew saw

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Speaker 1: her and followed her. She tried, poor old thing, tried

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Speaker 1: to pretend she was going into somebody else's house. It

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Speaker 1: was in mid morning, and they they had the sense

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Speaker 1: that wasn't really her house, and they waited for her

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Speaker 1: to come back out. Then they got her. They assaulted her,

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Speaker 1: horribly beat her and killed her. And she had what

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Speaker 1: she couldn't tell by looking at her, but she had

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Speaker 1: a glass eye. And that glass eye was found a

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Speaker 1: long time later, and that's what led to the prosecution. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's part of my story. The rest of my story

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Speaker 1: is I later prosecutor triple homicide. Turned out the gunman

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Speaker 1: was that guy's first isn't. What I'm saying is, You're right,

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Speaker 1: criminals often running packs, and I don't understand that behavior,

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Speaker 1: the wilding, the peer pressure. But I'm just giving you

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Speaker 1: one anecdote of many many that I recall over the

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Speaker 1: years of prosecuting. Where this one's here. Here's another one, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: get this. I'll never forget it. Cheryl are Harris. You

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Speaker 1: probably remember this, you Atlanta people. Um. I prosecuted a

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Speaker 1: guy for a huge drug trafficking. He was rich Rich

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Speaker 1: rich Street named Charlie Tuna, Okay, And I was convinced

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Speaker 1: that the judge was going to rule with the defense

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Speaker 1: and my evidence would be thrown out. It was Judge Langham,

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Speaker 1: who I loved well. As a matter of fact. He

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Speaker 1: ruled with me, and that the evidence came in. The

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Speaker 1: guy was convicted, all right, my first big drug trafficking conviction.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward about ten twelve, maybe longer. It was longer.

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Speaker 1: Many years later. O. J. Simpson beats the rap. Then

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Speaker 1: he gets busted in Vegas for armed robbery and who

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Speaker 1: was with him? Charles erlick e h R l I

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Speaker 1: c h And it just hit me right then that's

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Speaker 1: Charlie Tuna. Who else would have that name? Sure enough,

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Speaker 1: he get does ten on trafficking, gets out of jail,

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Speaker 1: and hooks up somehow with Simpson and as part of

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Speaker 1: that robbing crew. I mean, it's like they are drawn

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Speaker 1: to each other, like the magnet at the North Pole.

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Speaker 1: They can't stay away from evil doing. Cheryl. Well, here's

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Speaker 1: the thing about John Logan. Let's just talk about how

404
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Speaker 1: full of crap he is. Nancy, you know, as well

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Speaker 1: as minor. That's a technical legal term. Go ahead, but

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Speaker 1: mir or a two b people, if you send them

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Speaker 1: to the store for milk, they're coming home with milk.

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Speaker 1: You asked a lady to stop gett milked at the store,

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Speaker 1: she's gonna say, well, while I'm here, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: ahead and get stuff for breakfast, and we need paper towels,

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Speaker 1: a et cetera. Men a ta be. So when you

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Speaker 1: look at John and he tells you, oh yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: I dug up the remains and then I crushed the

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Speaker 1: bones and then I took her into a cave where

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Speaker 1: I burned her with some gasoline. So I had the

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Speaker 1: slipper to the cave and then bring the gasoline with us. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and then I took her to a crematorium. Oh, and

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Speaker 1: then we went and scattered her in the ocean. You

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00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: are such a freaking lyre it is not even funny.

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Speaker 1: So now you want me to believe you did all

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Speaker 1: those things? And then you're such a criminal mastermind. You

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Speaker 1: went and got some doll bones and put that where

423
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: her remains were to throw us off the track in

424
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: case we find that. You know, Clamdestine Grave, You're a jackass.

425
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: None of that happened. It is fantasy, it is then

426
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: why did he Why did he do it? Ashley Willcott?

427
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: I mean, you're the juvenile judge. You've tried a ton

428
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: of cases. You've been in the trenches just like the

429
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: rest of us. Why would he deliver this fantastical tale

430
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: and then meet his own bloody end? Ashley? I mean,

431
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: do they never learn for Pete's sake? And criminals aren't smart?

432
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: So two things. Number one, I think he wanted to

433
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: be famous or infamous, right, so he's gonna come out

434
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: and tell this elaborate story number two. It is his fantasy.

435
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: So here's my thing. What if he had not been

436
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: stabbed in self defense, which she says it was, would

437
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: he have kidnapped her, killed her and done all of

438
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: these things he's come up with in his mind and

439
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: crushed the bones and burned her skull. Maybe it's his fantasy.

440
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: You know, what do you make of this, Ashley? Our

441
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: theory that criminals just are naturally it's like inherent, they

442
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: can't help it. They're genetically drawn to each other. Well,

443
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: I think it's peer groups, right. Think about the people

444
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: you hang out with. Guess what, they're not criminals because

445
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: you're drawn to people that are like you, that you

446
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: have common interests. So as deranged as it is, as

447
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: stupid as it is, people who have criminal minds and

448
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: want to do bad things to people, guess what, they're

449
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: gonna hang out with like minded people who also want

450
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: to do those things. I will never forget our Harris.

451
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: I want you away on this. I remember going to

452
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: get together so when I was a prosecutor and one

453
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: of my very dear friends, female friends a dinner casual.

454
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: I think, uh, they were making um new Orleans food,

455
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: a Cajun food. Well, I saw one person pull out

456
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: a joint. Honey, I got myself together and I left.

457
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: Can you even imagine? So, of course, not that it

458
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: would happen, but a bust. And there I'm sitting in

459
00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: there with with a big pot of what, let's see,

460
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: a big pot, a little a too fee, a little

461
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: red beans and rise, and a big joint right behind me.

462
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, in oh, and you all may laugh about it,

463
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: but that's the last thing my children are going to

464
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: read about on the internet as mommy's all being in trouble.

465
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: I mean, when I get a ticket, I pay the

466
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,959
Speaker 1: darn thing, I say thank you and drive off at

467
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: fifteen miles an hour. Bam uh in oh, And what

468
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: she's saying is right, you flop too, what what you're

469
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: comfortable with? And that's why when people get out of

470
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: jail they run straight back to their old crew. It's

471
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: just like it's you can predict it. There's a picture

472
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: of this guy Ludwick and You're in Vandisflute on his

473
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: Facebook page, Nancy. This was his his idol here he

474
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: looked up to him. I mean, it's it's really sickening

475
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: to think about uh, you know these two, these two

476
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: birds of a feather as you put it, Uh, and

477
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: now one's in prison the other is dead. Ironically by

478
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, provoking the woman, he may have been acting

479
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: out your end fantasy on I mean, this is if

480
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: if if he looks up to someone who has killed

481
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: two women and he has a girlfriend and has this opportunity,

482
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: the judges is probably just right. This could have been

483
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: her death and not his had the knife gone the

484
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: other way. Guys, I want you to hear this other

485
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: sound at Alan managed to get for us. It's me

486
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: interviewing John Ludwig, the dead guy, defending your Vanderslut, calling

487
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: him a good guy. Listen to me on CNN, h

488
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: L and the US as a special guest John Ludwig.

489
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: He is a friend of yourn vander Salute. He's joining

490
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: us from Washington, d C. Tonight. Mr Ludwig, Are are

491
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: you from the States? Yes, I'm from Alexander, Virginia. And

492
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: do your parents know of your friendship with yourn vander Slut.

493
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: Yes they do, and what do they think of it? Um?

494
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: I mean they have mixed opinions, but I mean he's

495
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: my friend and it's my choice. Right. When you say

496
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,719
Speaker 1: mixed opinions, what do you mean by that? Because of

497
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: the past alleged incident, I mean, please put Mr Ludwig up.

498
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: Mr Ludwig, he's confessed to breaking somebody's neck, a girl's neck,

499
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 1: and then taking her clothes off after she's dead. And

500
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: then it says I used the comforter and the she's

501
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: to clean up all the blood from the floor. I

502
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: only clean the floor. He left the rest of the

503
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: room just bloody up. You know, another can of worms.

504
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: Here is an email exchange between you and Joran Vanderslute

505
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: where he says, happy birthday. I hope you had a

506
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: good day. This is May, and remember how important family

507
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: and friends are. By the way, can you send me

508
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: some money through Western Union tomorrow? Remember that? Yes I do.

509
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: Did you send him money? No? I did. Uh. He

510
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: had told me that was the evening of May nine,

511
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: and I guess the alleged event happened later a few

512
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: hours later, into the thirtie. But he told me he

513
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: needed money to get back to a rubus. So I

514
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: mean before I had a chance to help him out,

515
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: I couldn't get a hold of him. And then the

516
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: news said what it said, sir, it's not just the

517
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: news said what it said. The news is not like

518
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: being walking around this studio that just spouts things off

519
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: the news. Is what he did and said, Okay, it's

520
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: it's just that didn't fall from the sky hit you

521
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: on the head. This is what you're on. Vander Slut said.

522
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: But sir, obviously you're going to choose to believe what

523
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: you want to believe. What, if anything, did he tell

524
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: you about Natalie Holloway. Um, we only had one main

525
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: discussion on it, and it was an evening that we

526
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: watched the Natalie Holloway movie on TV. And he just

527
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: told me parts of the movie that were true in

528
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 1: parts that weren't true. And that's about at length as

529
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: I want to get into it. Did you ask him

530
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: more things? No, I didn't bring it up. He talked

531
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: to me about it, but I'm not I don't want

532
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: to get into any more of that. You mean you

533
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: don't want to tell me more about it, right, or

534
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: you didn't want to get into more of it with him? No,

535
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: I don't want to bring that up at this time. Well,

536
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: I would advise you to get ready for a subpoena

537
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: to find out in a court of law. What he

538
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: had to say about Natalie Holloway's death with me is

539
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: John Ludwick, friend of your in vandi slut, Mr Ludwick.

540
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: What kind of things would you do together? Mainly we

541
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: went to the casino and he liked to play poker.

542
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: I just watched her play slots, but he really I'd

543
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: say at a gambling addiction, but he'd play poker almost

544
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: every night. Did he ever mention where he got the money?

545
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: Did he ever mention he was in the middle of

546
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: a shakedown on the dead girl's mother for a quarter

547
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: million dollars to name where the dead girl's body is. Um?

548
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: I know he had money because he ran a coffee

549
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: shop in Thailand, so he had some money saved for that.

550
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: But after a while he's money started running low. And

551
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: that's when I guess the contact happened with that what contact?

552
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: That's when I guess he tried to contact um, John

553
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: Kelly or Beth Halloway. And that stuff happened when he

554
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: run out started running out of money. Why do you

555
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: say he tried to contact And what he tried to

556
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: do was extort a quarter million dollars in exchange for

557
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: the location of Natalie's body. And it would seem to

558
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: me that you would be concerned that he knew where

559
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: a dead body was. I mean, if you knew where

560
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: a dead body was, Mr, wouldn't you tell police? Um?

561
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: I mean not if it compromised me? Maybe not? Well, okay,

562
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: obviously you know I I learned I think in kindergarten

563
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: two plus two equals four. But if Vandersleut won't tell

564
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: where the body is because it compromises him, that means

565
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: he's involved in the murder. Did that not bother you

566
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: during all the months you were out at casinos with him?

567
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: I mean I was never in fear for my safety.

568
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: To John Linley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, I just want

569
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: to touch on how this guy Ludwick died. What he goes?

570
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: What is this his ex girlfriend and he wants to

571
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: get back together. What do we know about how he

572
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: actually died the facts of this from what she told police,

573
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: this woman was done with what relationship they had. She

574
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 1: wanted out. Um, John Ludwig showed up at her house,

575
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: tried to get her car keys. Uh, and so he

576
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: had a knife and somehow she was able to gain

577
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: control of the knife before he could attack her, and

578
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: she very quickly stabbed him and brought to a close

579
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: this bizarre episode in the in the driveway of her house.

580
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: You know what I mean when I think about it,

581
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: Sheryl McCollum, What did could we not predict this would

582
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: be his bitter end? Oh? Like we had a crystal ball, Harney.

583
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you cannot run with criminals, especially killers, and

584
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: not think you're going to receive the same type of car.

585
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: But so, bottom line, was there just one stab? Aren't Harris?

586
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: Or the police report talks about her stabbing him multiple

587
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: times quote in the Torso area. Uh. They find the

588
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: sheaf of the knife in his backpack that he ran

589
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: away with, and police believe she'd nick an artery. A

590
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: lucky lucky stab for her but amazing, this woman fighting

591
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: for her life, Uh, stabs this guy multiple times with

592
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: his own knife. Police say self defense and they do

593
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: not anticipate any charges being pressed against Church. So in

594
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: the end of this, right, Harris, what has become of

595
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: all the players in the Natalie Holloway scenario. Well, certainly

596
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: you have the star uh, evil Gene in prison and

597
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: Peru uh and uh, you know, last seen taking a

598
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: candy bar from Beth Holloway, promising Hill writer and tell

599
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: her possibly where Natalie's body has never done. Um, you

600
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: have the mother and you have the father who has

601
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: been on Oxygen UH network trying to uh you know,

602
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: follow the trail of clues that this dead man claims

603
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: that he had access to with all these bones. Um.

604
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: So you know it is a sad a sad landscape

605
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: of tragedy Nancy, as as crimes often are. But this

606
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: one has gone on and on and the ghost seems

607
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: to be coming back. UM in this a certainly in

608
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: this killing. You know when I think about it, Cheryl McCullum,

609
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 1: you've got the mom devastated. I'm talking about Beth Twitty,

610
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: devastated because her she lost her daughter. She got her

611
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: hopes up when the Oxygen series started thinking maybe you

612
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: know this might be Nallie's rermazine, she was, you know, devastated. Again.

613
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 1: You've got the dad who went through all this drama,

614
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: has gone all over the world trying to find clues

615
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: about Natalie. Could she still be alive? You've got your

616
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: on vanderslut who, as I predicted, and I normally don't

617
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: pat myself on the back for predicting another murder, did

618
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: go on to kill again. He's in jail. He's managed

619
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: to have a baby and get married and drink and

620
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 1: do drugs and live the high life behind bars. But yes,

621
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: he's married with a baby behind bars in another country.

622
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: This guy is dead, and I think that Cheryl is

623
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: at awful unfalls. Over the next years, we'll see more

624
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 1: of the end of the story, much like we did

625
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: with the players in the O. J. Simpson case. You

626
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: see how their lives unfold. I think Beth is probably

627
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: the person that my heart breaks for often in this case,

628
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: because she's been lied to, she's been boon swoggled, she's

629
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: been set up over and over again. So basically have

630
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: her heart ripped from her chance over and over um

631
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, I've talked the best personally

632
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: multiple times. My original thought of what happens to Natalie

633
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: have never changed, no matter who has come forward. Your hand.

634
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: Vander Sleut in Peru with Stephanie floors panic and rant.

635
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: He didn't had that body, he didn't take that body,

636
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 1: he didn't dispose of that body. He panic. In Rain

637
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: with Natalie, you did the same thing. He was feet

638
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: from the Atlantic Ocean, that's where he put her sad pitiful.

639
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: I mean, Karen Stark, you know how I am with

640
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: the twins, and it hurts me to even let him

641
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: out of my sight. I don't want to be some

642
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: freaky mom. Ashley and I joked about it, as she

643
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: willcott that there's a helicopter mom. I call myself the

644
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: straight jacket mom. But I try not to let them

645
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: know how freaked out I am. I try to watch

646
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: and worry at a distance, but stories like this, I mean,

647
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: I was just trying to explain to Lucy this past

648
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: weekend why I was going back to college when she

649
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: went to college, and that I would live very very

650
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: um quietly and unobtrusively right across the street from campus

651
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 1: with a pair of binoculars. I mean, help me, Karen, Well, Nancy,

652
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: we can't protect our children from harm. Although that's every

653
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: mother's you know, wish. In this case, her daughter was

654
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: on a vacation and it was just supposed to be

655
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: a fun trip with friends from school, and this tragedy happened.

656
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: I think that the man who was just killed identified

657
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: with his friend. I remember those interviews and when he

658
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: kept defending him and saying, well, if that, you know,

659
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: she never should have asked him about Natalie. Why would

660
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: she bring that up? And I could tell even then

661
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: that he was talking about himself, that if somebody did

662
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: that with him, he would think it would be fine

663
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: to murder them. And so here we are and he

664
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: turns out to be a killer and he gets killed himself.

665
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: So it's a tragic story. And it's not over yet. No,

666
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: mother doesn't get resolution. She's right, Ashley Wilcott, it's not

667
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,439
Speaker 1: over yet, that there's going to be more. And I

668
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: swear I believe, and I know this sounds crazy, that

669
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: one day we will know the truth about Natalie, But

670
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: I do agree with Cheryl. I've I've always thought that's

671
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: what happened to Natal. Yeah, I agree with you, Nancy,

672
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: and I too, I believe what goes around comes around,

673
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: and that someday in the future we will know exactly

674
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: what happened to her. It takes time, but often years

675
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: and years later, like you said, Glass Eyeball, you find

676
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: out what. Oh, and you know that's a good John, Nancy.

677
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: It's interesting to note we've talked about how we don't

678
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: quite believe John Ludwig's story. Well, the credibility of what

679
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: he said in that Oxygen documentary was cast into doubt

680
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: by a lawsuit filed by Natalie's mother Beth. In her lawsuit,

681
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: Ms Holloway accused Oxygen and the production company Great and

682
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: Great and Media pretending to report on the progress of

683
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 1: an investigation as it was happening, when in fact everything

684
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: had been prescripted, making the series really a pre planned

685
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: farce in their words, whose broadcast was outrageous. In her lawsuit,

686
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: Blessed Beth claimed that at a point when the series

687
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: portrayed Ludwig as being covertly recorded, he had already signed

688
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: a non disclosure agreement and was a paid participant in

689
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 1: the series and aware at all times that he was

690
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 1: being taped for publication. Meanwhile, the claims of the lawsuit

691
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: have been denied and Oxygen is standing behind that documentary.

692
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: Botom line to you are, Harris, how's it all going

693
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: to play out in the end? Do you think we'll

694
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: ever get a resolution? And are you surprised about this

695
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: guy's his his death? This this guy like Yourn, kept

696
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: changing his story about the evidence for money, and he

697
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: would be paid. He would get you know something, and

698
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 1: he told people what they wanted to hear. As your

699
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 1: En has said on tape, that's what he did. Now,

700
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: how will it end, um? I mean, I just have

701
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: to believe that at some point someone either offer magnuron

702
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: offer he can't refuse. But the problem here is there

703
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 1: are too many people Nancy in Aruba who don't want

704
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: the truth to come out, and so, uh, this is

705
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: something that you want probably fears they fear, and you

706
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 1: know the police don't seem that interested and have dismissed

707
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: him as a liar, and that gives them an excuse

708
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: not to pursue it because there's no credibility here uh

709
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: to the information. So uh it is. It is really

710
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: sad tragic, but you know, at some point, if there

711
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: is anything physical, um, maybe it can be proved. However,

712
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: I believe, like Cheryl does, that the ashes were scattered.

713
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: John Ludwig actually has said that he went out in

714
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,919
Speaker 1: a boat with with your En. Uh. Whether that's true

715
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: or not, that's the saying story Vanderslute has told before.

716
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: So maybe the two together are saying something that that

717
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: we should listen to. That the evidence um is sleeping

718
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: with fish. Sadly, as it turns out, Ludwick the guy

719
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: involved in the Natalie Holloway disappearance and death is now

720
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: a footnote to the Natalie Holloway story. His life ends

721
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: and a sticky, bloody death of his own when he

722
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: tries to kidnap a next girlfriend that wants nothing else

723
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 1: to do with him. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off

724
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: good Bye friend,