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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm here

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Speaker 1: with my producer, Mike. Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 2: Mike, Hey, Bridget, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: And here's what you may have missed this week on

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Speaker 3: the Internet.

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Speaker 1: But first I have to do a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a I don't know PSA announcement. This is the situation

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Speaker 1: I'm calling Cameo Cinderella. So five years ago, somebody from

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Speaker 1: the platform Cameo, which is a platform that you can

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Speaker 1: have public figures or famous people give you like birthday

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Speaker 1: shout outs. About five years ago, somebody from Cameo got

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Speaker 1: in touch with me and they said, hey, you should

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Speaker 1: be on Cameo. This was like a real ego boost

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Speaker 1: for me. I was like, Oh my god, do you

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Speaker 1: think that people would really want to like pay me

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Speaker 1: to give them like a video greeting.

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Speaker 3: I signed up. I became of the platform.

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Speaker 1: Literally five years go by, no one requests a goddamn

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Speaker 1: thing whatever.

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Speaker 3: I was humbled.

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Speaker 1: But last week I got my first ever Cameo request.

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Speaker 1: But because I had never used the platform and it

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Speaker 1: had just been dormant for five years. I didn't really

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Speaker 1: know how it worked.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: The requests expired, so I was not able to fill

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Speaker 1: my first ever cameo request.

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Speaker 3: I feel terrible about it.

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Speaker 1: So it was from somebody named Jason and they were

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Speaker 1: requesting a cameo pep talk from me. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: Jason is writing a children's book that sounds really amazing. Jason,

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Speaker 1: if you are listening, or if you know somebody named

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Speaker 1: Jason and you think you know this is the person,

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Speaker 1: email me. I am so sorry that I did not

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Speaker 1: fulfill your cameo request. It was my first ever in

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Speaker 1: five years.

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Speaker 3: Time email me.

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Speaker 1: You do not have to pay. I would love to

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Speaker 1: send you a video pep talk. Hit me up at

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Speaker 1: Hello at tangoti dot com. I'm so sorry I'm missing

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I just wanted to say that.

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Speaker 3: Jason. If you're listening, I'm sorry. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I hope Jason is out. I hope you heard from

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Speaker 2: Jason me too.

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Speaker 3: So let's get into the news.

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Speaker 1: So first, there's one story that just makes me so happy,

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Speaker 1: even though it was obvious to anybody paying attention, but

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Speaker 1: it's what makes me happy, and that is Ruby and

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Speaker 1: Shae Freeman have been cleared of all wrongdoing officially. Now

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Speaker 1: this is really obvious to anybody who's been paying attention

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Speaker 1: to this story, but it's still a good thing if

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Speaker 1: you don't remember. Ruby and Shae Freeman are the black

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Speaker 1: mother daughter duo who were poll workers in Georgia who

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Speaker 1: Trump and Rudy Giuliani baselessly accused of tampering with votes

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Speaker 1: in the Georgia presidential election in twenty twenty that Trump

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Speaker 1: lost Farren Square. They have been officially cleared of all wrongdoing.

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Speaker 1: An investigative report released this week by the Georgia Elections

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Speaker 1: Board of the twenty twenty election found that all of

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Speaker 1: the claims that they had mishandled votes, that they were

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Speaker 1: moving votes, all of that stuff that Trump made up

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Speaker 1: was all found to be false and unsubstantiated. The report

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Speaker 1: also found that fake social media accounts and impersonation played

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Speaker 1: a role, which is something that we talk about a

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Speaker 1: lot on this podcast. As part of the robe, the

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Speaker 1: Georgia Election Board investigators interviewed a social media user who

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Speaker 1: admitted that they created a fake account and confirmed that

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Speaker 1: the content that was posted on this account was fake.

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Speaker 1: Vonda Boy, the attorney representing the women said in a

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Speaker 1: statement following the release of the report that this serves

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Speaker 1: as further evidence that Miss Freeman and Miss Moss, while

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Speaker 1: doing their patriotic duty and serving their community, were simply

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Speaker 1: collateral damage and a corugated effort to undermine the results

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Speaker 1: of the twenty twenty presidential election. We talked about this

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Speaker 1: story kind of in depth on the podcast. The women

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Speaker 1: testified at the January sixth Commission about how terrifying the

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Speaker 1: harassment and violence that they faced got for them after

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Speaker 1: Trump and Juliani basically just lied about them, and their

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Speaker 1: testimony really broke me because I think it put a

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Speaker 1: human face on things like conspiracy theories and disinformation.

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Speaker 3: This was just like a mother and daughter who wanted

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Speaker 3: to serve their community.

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Speaker 1: The daughter had been working as a poleworker for a

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Speaker 1: while because she really cared for the elders in her

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Speaker 1: community and wanted to help those elders vote.

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Speaker 3: These are people who.

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Speaker 1: Were really really motivated by their civic duties and that

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Speaker 1: motivation was turned against them. And so you know, if

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Speaker 1: folks have not heard their testimony, I definitely recommend checking

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Speaker 1: out the episode that we did on them, But it

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Speaker 1: is heartbreaking because it really puts a face on what

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Speaker 1: ordinary citizens have to deal with when the president uses

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Speaker 1: his office to target them, lie about them, and smeared them.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Right wing blogs published their pictures and their names and

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Speaker 1: saying they were moving suitcases full of ballots and from

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Speaker 1: polling places they weren't. Giuliani got real racist with it,

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Speaker 1: saying that he had a video of the women passing

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Speaker 1: a USB drive to each other, quote as if they

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Speaker 1: were vials of heroin or crack, even though they were

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Speaker 1: just passing a piece of candy to each other. At

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Speaker 1: one point, an angry mob of Trump supporters descended on

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Speaker 1: their grandmother's home and tried to strong arm their way

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Speaker 1: into her house to make a citizen arrest. I can't

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Speaker 1: even imagine how terrifying that must have been. Eventually, she

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Speaker 1: had to just pack up and leave her home that

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Speaker 1: she had lived in for twenty years for her own safety.

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Speaker 1: So this was a very real, very terrifying harassment campaign

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Speaker 1: that an elderly black woman and her daughter went through

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Speaker 1: just because they wanted to serve their communities, and Trump

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Speaker 1: and his cronies were looking.

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Speaker 3: For a scapegoat to pin their election loss on.

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Speaker 1: I was also really pleased that they both got a

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Speaker 1: presidential medal from Biden, along with ten others who made

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Speaker 1: exemplary contributions to our democracy. Surrounding January six, we did

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Speaker 1: a whole episode on Ruby and Shay on my Cool

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Speaker 1: Zone podcast Internet Hate Machine, So definitely check it out.

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Speaker 1: We'll link it in the comments. But I think it's

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Speaker 1: really important to point out that what those women went

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Speaker 1: through was a racist, sexist disinformation campaign that really weaponized

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Speaker 1: and relied on their identities as black women to work.

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Speaker 3: You know. I think that when Trump and Juliani just.

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Speaker 1: Saw a video of two black women working in the

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Speaker 1: polls in Georgia, he knew that he could capitalize off

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Speaker 1: of their base and society at large's distrust of black women.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that that is why that.

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Speaker 1: Particular smear campaign stuck so well for them, because I

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Speaker 1: think they knew, like, oh, be on a video of

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Speaker 1: two black women, you know, work in the polls in Georgia,

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Speaker 1: we could just put it on them. So I'm really

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Speaker 1: pleased that what was obvious now is part of the

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Speaker 1: public record that these women were just collateral damage in

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Speaker 1: a racist, sexist smear campaign for simply trying to serve

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Speaker 1: their communities, and I'm every new update about them that

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Speaker 1: I hear, I'm just rooting for them, you know. I

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Speaker 1: hope that they sue the pants off of everybody and

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Speaker 1: get everybody's money, But nothing can make right what they

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Speaker 1: went through. These women are heroes, but they should not

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Speaker 1: have to be heroes. They should not have to face

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, a sitting president, for simply wanting to exist

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Speaker 1: and do their jobs and serve their community. So I'm

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Speaker 1: really deeply rooting for these women. This news makes me.

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Speaker 3: Really happy, but they should I ever have had to

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Speaker 3: go through this in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice to see the exoneration. I guess it's

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Speaker 2: like years later, right, like three years later. Hopefully they

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Speaker 2: get some peace at this point. And yeah, I wonder

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Speaker 2: if they're gonna be suing people, you know, maybe they

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Speaker 2: should get in contact with Egene Carroll's lawyers. Part of

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Speaker 2: me hopes that this is the last time we talk

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Speaker 2: about them on the show, because they're able to just

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Speaker 2: like step out of the public spotlight that they never

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Speaker 2: sought and just like return to normal lives. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: part of me wonders if maybe we will hear more

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Speaker 2: from them. You know, they suffered a lot for no reason.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they'll sue people. They probably should. They certainly seems

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Speaker 2: like they could.

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Speaker 1: I think they were where they had an active lawsuit

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Speaker 1: against the Gateway Pundit, one of the right wing blogs

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Speaker 1: that first put their name and picture into the right

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Speaker 1: wing blog a sphere.

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Speaker 3: And it's funny that you bring up Egen Carroll.

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Speaker 1: Something that I think about quite a bit is that

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Speaker 1: Egen Carrol won her defamation lawsuit against Trump. The very

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Speaker 1: next day he went on CNN and continued to defame her.

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Speaker 1: She said that she might actually sue him again, and

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Speaker 1: obviously the same as with Ruby and Shay, I am

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Speaker 1: rooting for Egen Carroll.

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Speaker 3: But here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: She should be able to rest, just like you said,

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Speaker 1: she shouldn't have to be constantly gearing up for lawsuit

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Speaker 1: after lawsuit after lawsuit just to get some peace. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm rooting for these women. I believe that these

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Speaker 1: women should get what they deserve for what Trump and

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Speaker 1: these assholes put them through. But they should not have

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Speaker 1: to continually fight these battles against this person who continues

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Speaker 1: to lie about them. So I'm with you, I'm wishing

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Speaker 1: them some peace, but always rooting for them. I want

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Speaker 1: them to take these assholes for everything there work because

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Speaker 1: they deserve it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely like they deserve it. They deserve everything they

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Speaker 2: can get. And then also in terms of the bigger picture,

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Speaker 2: one of the things we talked about at the beginning

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Speaker 2: of this season is how it's starting to look like

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Speaker 2: litigation and defamation lawsuits might be an important strategy in

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Speaker 2: trying to rein in online disinformation in this time when

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Speaker 2: it seems like a lot of platforms are actually going

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Speaker 2: in the opposite direction of making it easier for people

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Speaker 2: to just lie online and spread harmful misinformation and target

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Speaker 2: people for coordinated attacks. As people are surveying the landscape

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Speaker 2: of what is actually an effective way to try to

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Speaker 2: rein it in, it does seem like these lawsuits might

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Speaker 2: be an important piece of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we're going to see more and more

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Speaker 3: of that.

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Speaker 1: I think the episode we started the season with Nita

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Speaker 1: jank With sueing Fox News for defamation. I'm curious to

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Speaker 1: see what the future looks like for people who lie

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Speaker 1: for profit. I hope it's not a good one, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think that serves anybody. Speaking of people who

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Speaker 1: profit off the flies and harassment.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about Elon Musk.

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Speaker 1: I should say this episode, we're gonna mention Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: a few times. I feel like y'all have heard me

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Speaker 1: say now, like, oh, I'm not gonna talk about Elon Musk,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna bring him up.

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Speaker 3: I'm just gonna like ignore him.

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Speaker 1: But then I talk about him every news Roundup because

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Speaker 1: he just stays in the news. So trigger warning, this

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Speaker 1: is a Musk heavy episode and maybe they should actually

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Speaker 1: be a new round Up segment.

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Speaker 2: What's Elon done now?

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Speaker 1: Well, now, Elon Musk has declared the words cis and

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Speaker 1: cisgender will now be considered slurs on Twitter that can

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Speaker 1: be punishable with suspension.

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Speaker 3: Let's get into it.

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Speaker 1: So Elon Musk has essentially invented two new slurs, cis

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Speaker 1: and cisgender. So the word sis or sis gender is

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Speaker 1: not some big scary word. It simply describes someone who

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Speaker 1: identifies their gender as the same as their birth sex.

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Speaker 1: So how did this whole thing on Twitter start? Well,

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Speaker 1: it started when James Essy's an Irish right wing social

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Speaker 1: media personality who writes articles about things like the threat

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Speaker 1: of wokeness and trans and inclusion, while he complains that

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Speaker 1: people were calling him sissy on Twitter, writing yesterday, after

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Speaker 1: posting a tweet saying that I reject the word CIS

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Speaker 1: and I don't wish to be called it, I received

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Speaker 1: a slew of messages from transactivists calling me sissy and

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Speaker 1: telling me that I am sis, whether I like it

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Speaker 1: or not. Just imagine if the roles were reversed. So

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Speaker 1: Musk replied, saying, repeated targeted harassment against any account will

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Speaker 1: cause the harassing account to receive at minimum temporary suspensions.

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Speaker 1: The word CIS or cisgender are considered slurs on this platform. Now. Ugh,

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Speaker 1: So this goes back to what we were talking about

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Speaker 1: last week, how so much of Elon Musk's whole thing,

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Speaker 1: not just his personal identity but how he makes business

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Speaker 1: and strategy decisions is grounded in transphobia. To put this

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Speaker 1: in context with that Glad report that we talked about

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Speaker 1: last week, finding that Twitter is by far the least

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Speaker 1: hospitable social media platform for LGBTQ folks and that Twitter

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Speaker 1: had actually rolled back policies that did the bare minimum

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Speaker 1: of keeping transphobia off the platform, while other social media

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Speaker 1: platforms like Facebook or TikTok try to do some things.

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Speaker 3: Twitter was like, now we're going in the opposite direction.

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Speaker 3: We're going to do less.

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Speaker 1: Lgbtqu users are reporting being threatened and harassed on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: and Musk is not just allowing it, but amplifying it

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Speaker 1: and encouraging it. So this gus down into the question

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Speaker 1: of whether or not cis is a slur no end

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Speaker 1: of sentence, it is not. The history behind the word

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Speaker 1: cis is actually like kind of techy and pretty cool,

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Speaker 1: especially like if you're a word nerd, if you're interested

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Speaker 1: in the origins of words. According to history dot org,

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Speaker 1: the term has a long and contested history prior to

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Speaker 1: its wider cultural adoption. The OED officially cites a nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four post to a usenet newsgroup alt that transgendered

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Speaker 1: by user Dana Leland de FOSSi as the term's origin.

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Speaker 1: First established in nineteen eighty, Usenet was a precursor to

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Speaker 1: the World Wide Web. It's a distributed discussion system where

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Speaker 1: users posted messages to topics specific news groups. Given its

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Speaker 1: long history, use net is the origin point for a

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Speaker 1: variety of terminology, providing the first use case for over

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Speaker 1: four hundred oed entries. Nevertheless, other origin narratives persist some

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Speaker 1: sources for many years. Wikipedia, among them, credit a Dutch

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Speaker 1: transgender man named Carl Bousch as creating the term in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, a narrative he himself supports. Yet examples

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Speaker 1: of the CIS trans dichotomy in reference to gender nonconformity

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Speaker 1: go back even further, beginning as early as nineteen fourteen

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Speaker 1: in German sexological literature. This is really interesting. I know

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Speaker 1: we were talking a bit off Mike before we got started,

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Speaker 1: but I actually had never heard of usenet, and you

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Speaker 1: were like, oh, you don't know about and use that.

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Speaker 3: This is something that you were familiar with, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was a little bit before my time. I wish

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Speaker 2: I was cool enough to have been using it, but

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Speaker 2: it's an important piece of like Internet lore. I think

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Speaker 2: all of the founding creators of the Internet, they were

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Speaker 2: using it to connect with each other and collaborate and

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Speaker 2: share software and share ideas. And I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of the the ideas that we had in the early

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Speaker 2: days of the Internet about it, like being a force

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Speaker 2: for democratization and equality and freedom and openness. I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of those ideas really were incubated on Usenet,

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Speaker 2: which you know, was then eventually supplanted by services like

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Speaker 2: America Online and then the world Wide Web I think

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Speaker 2: was a more similar sort of open I don't even

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Speaker 2: know what the.

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Speaker 4: World Wide Web?

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Speaker 2: Is it a protocol, is it whatever? But yeah, Usenet

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Speaker 2: was just a critical important place for early founders and

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Speaker 2: creators of what we now think of as the Internet

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Speaker 2: where it all happened.

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Speaker 4: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 1: The etymology of the word in this instance is like

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Speaker 1: techie like, I think identity and techiness like. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: surprise me that this is where some where folks think

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Speaker 1: that this may be where some of these terms originated.

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Speaker 3: And like where their use came from.

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Speaker 1: Aaron Reid also has a really fascinating breakdown about the

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Speaker 1: use of the word sis in medicine and science going

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Speaker 1: back to the nineteenth century. We'll put it in the

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Speaker 1: show notes. It's fascinating. So of all the moral panics,

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Speaker 1: I find the ones around language and gender to be

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Speaker 1: the most tiresome. You know, it's just like this panic

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Speaker 1: around extremists getting bent out of shape from phrases like

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Speaker 1: pregnant people. Extremists make it sound like it's some big, scary,

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Speaker 1: nefarious plot.

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Speaker 3: When the reality is so much more boring.

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Speaker 1: Right, sometimes you need to be able to refer to

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Speaker 1: a group of people at the population, let level using

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Speaker 1: precise language, and that's really all it is. Like the

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Speaker 1: fact that they've been able to turn this into a

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Speaker 1: attack on them as opposed to just like a humdrum,

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Speaker 1: you know, particularity of language needs is beyond me. Like

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Speaker 1: it really just shows how they will use anything to

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Speaker 1: weaponize and turn it into it an attack on them.

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Speaker 1: And extremists have been attacking terms like CIS and also

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Speaker 1: straight and even white for years to paint it as

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Speaker 1: a pejorative meant to shame. I think there is this

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Speaker 1: idea where like, the only groups who have kind of

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Speaker 1: special quote unquote special words meant to define them are

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Speaker 1: like the other, right, Like the dominant group is like,

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Speaker 1: we're the dominant group, we're the quote normal ones.

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Speaker 3: Other people they.

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Speaker 1: Get words attached to them to describe who they are,

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Speaker 1: not us. And so I think there's this idea that

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Speaker 1: if a word is being used to describe them, whether

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Speaker 1: it's CIS or straight or white, even if it's just

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Speaker 1: a humdrum word that is actually a personal attack on them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and I think that's all correct, and

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Speaker 2: not to minimize the importance of words and language, right,

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Speaker 2: because we know that words and language and labels are

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Speaker 2: very powerful. But yeah, there's like this hostility to to

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Speaker 2: labels like cis or white that apply to the majority group.

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Speaker 2: Like you just said, you know, it's they're they're comfortable

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Speaker 2: with words that refer to members of a minority group

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Speaker 2: and in fact reinforce their otherness and their minority status. Uh,

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Speaker 2: but to then have a word like white or cists

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Speaker 2: that refers to to them is like deeply threatening because

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Speaker 2: I think it implies that they are not the default.

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Speaker 2: They are not normal, they are not the standard. And

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Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, the word cis it does imply that

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Speaker 2: trans people exist, and I think a lot of these folks,

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Speaker 2: like Elon Musk would argue that in fact, they don't,

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Speaker 2: you know, don't. I don't know exactly how that works

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Speaker 2: in their brain, but like they seem to believe that

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Speaker 2: like trans people aren't real.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was that law I think it was

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Speaker 2: in I can't remember which state it was, but like

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Speaker 2: an anti One of these laws that denied gender affirming

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Speaker 2: care to trans kids was struck down by a judge

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Speaker 2: somewhere in like the Deep South, I want to I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure which, I can't remember which state it was.

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Speaker 2: And the judge like explicitly said, and they're ruling that,

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Speaker 2: you know, gender identity exists. It's a real thing. Like,

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Speaker 2: despite all the vitriol and the huffing and puffing of

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Speaker 2: these transphobes like Elon Musk, gender identity is real. They

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Speaker 2: can pretend and perhaps wish that it weren't, but but

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that happened in Arkansas, and it kind of made

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Speaker 1: me kind of cautiously optimistic that at a certain point,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if these extremists like it or get

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Speaker 1: it or not. It's not their business, right, Like, gender exists.

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Speaker 1: It's a thing that can shape people's lives. It's a

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Speaker 1: thing that can determine what kind of medical care you

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Speaker 1: need and what kind of care that you need to

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Speaker 1: show up as your best self and your healthiest self.

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Speaker 3: Even if transphobes and extremists don't like it, that is

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Speaker 3: not their business.

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Speaker 1: So that Arkansas ruling made me like cautiously optimistic that

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Speaker 1: we can get to a place as like, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to like it. It's not your business.

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Speaker 1: It's a real thing, and we need to make sure

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Speaker 1: that people can get care that aligns with the care

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Speaker 1: that they need. And it's really none of your business

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Speaker 1: what that care is like. If you don't like it,

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Speaker 1: fucking deal with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think Elon Musk has like a real

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Speaker 2: problem with that, Right Like, he spent forty four billion

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Speaker 2: dollars to buy Twitter so that he could be the

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Speaker 2: guy who gets to decide what discourse is a loud

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Speaker 2: and what discourse isn't hidden behind you know, his I

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Speaker 2: don't know veneer of being a free speech champion, which

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Speaker 2: he has revealed over and over again to just be

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Speaker 2: a complete joke. Right Like, he's not in favor of

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Speaker 2: free speech. He's in favor of the speech that he likes,

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Speaker 2: and and speech that he doesn't like he wants to

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Speaker 2: keep off of the platform. Right We've seen that a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of times. And now he's gone a step

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Speaker 2: further to think that because he owns Twitter, he cannot

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Speaker 2: only decide which speech is allowed and which speech isn't,

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Speaker 2: but he can like invent new meanings for words, and

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Speaker 2: he can't right, like, cis is not a slur, It's

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Speaker 2: just a descriptive term to describe a phenomenon that exists

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Speaker 2: in the natural world.

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Speaker 1: Well, as awful as all of this is, and it

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Speaker 1: is awful, at least it can be the final nail

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Speaker 1: in the coffin of the idea that.

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk is a free speech.

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Speaker 1: Absolutist, as he has often hilariously claimed. He explicitly said

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Speaker 1: when he bought Twitter, he was used it as a

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Speaker 1: platform to try to police and restrict the language of

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Speaker 1: trans people and people that support them, And it's I

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Speaker 1: think part of a larger attempt to erase and eradicate

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Speaker 1: transness and clearness from public and civic life.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, I think that's what he's doing.

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Speaker 1: At least we've like dropped the conversation about how he's

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Speaker 1: going to turn Twitter into a free speech utopia. At least,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I haven't even seen anybody really say that,

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Speaker 1: even any of his defenders say that, because it's so

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Speaker 1: obviously not true that you can't even continue to say it,

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Speaker 1: because it's like, well, look at all these examples of

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Speaker 1: the ways that he hasn't done that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good observation. I haven't heard anybody say

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Speaker 2: that in a long time because it's like, obviously not true.

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Speaker 2: It's not a free speech utopia. It's like an anti

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Speaker 2: trans healthscape.

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Speaker 3: An anti trans healthscape.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of healthscapes, let's talk about the mess over at Reddit.

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Speaker 1: So the Reddit blackout continues as thousands of subreddits remain private.

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Speaker 1: Longtime volunteer moderators who have always been the backbone of

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Speaker 1: Reddit and the communities that it hosts, have lots many

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Speaker 1: popular subreddits in protest of the company's surprise decision to

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Speaker 1: start charging third party apps and individuals for access to

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Speaker 1: the platform's API. We've talked about this in an earlier

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Speaker 1: news roundup, but previously API access has been free, which

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Speaker 1: enabled the development of many third party apps that made

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Speaker 1: Reddit easier to use, easier to moderate, and more accessible

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Speaker 1: for Internet users with disabilities. But all of that ended

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Speaker 1: earlier this month when Reddit shut down free access and

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Speaker 1: started charging pretty steep fees for any app that used

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Speaker 1: the API. In response, many major third party app developers

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Speaker 1: said they would have to shut down their apps because

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Speaker 1: they just simply could not afford the fees. Many of

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Speaker 1: these apps were created by small indie developers who simply

439
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: wanted to contribute to a better Internet with credit, not

440
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: because they were particularly profitable. So this move by Reddit

441
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: to consolidate and centralized power against the wishes of the

442
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: army of volunteers who make the site an invaluable and

443
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: fun resource, I think really represents like a dark trend

444
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 1: on the Internet. I think it follows a similar move

445
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: by Twitter shortly after Musk took over. Yep, this is

446
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 1: the second and time we're talking about them. I'm sorry,

447
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,959
Speaker 1: but by shutting down free API access, Reddit and Twitter

448
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 1: are actively making their platforms less friendly to their users.

449
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: People use third party tools because those tools are useful.

450
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: They didn't just start using them for fun. They use

451
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: them for a reason. And now those tools are gone,

452
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: so users are fewer options and reduced functionality for interacting

453
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: with those platforms. And so I mean, I don't know,

454
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is like a boring story

455
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: or not, but I really see it as a battle

456
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: for the soul and the future of the Internet. One

457
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 1: of the things that came up when we were talking

458
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: about this, I think the week before last, was that

459
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 1: how many people type when they have a question or

460
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: they need some information, they'll type the question into Google

461
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: and then they'll add Reddit because they want to get

462
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: like real good information curated by a human. And I

463
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 1: was just like, Oh, isn't that interesting? But then I

464
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: thought about it more and I was like, well, why

465
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: is that? And I think it's because we have just

466
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: accepted that so much of our Internet infrastructure is scams.

467
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 3: And ads an annoying.

468
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: Post, Like, the experience of using the Internet in twenty

469
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: twenty three is actually like an experience of wading through

470
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 1: this minefield of scams and advertisements. And so the reason

471
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: why people need to add Reddit to their Google search

472
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: queries is because it was the only way to quickly

473
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: get to information that was hand picked and looked at

474
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: by a human and not some kind of a SEO

475
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: bot scam. Right, Like, I don't know, And it's interesting

476
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: to me that, Like, I think that this Reddit thing

477
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: is really a conversation about what the Internet is for.

478
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 3: Who it is for.

479
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: Is it for humans who need accurate information or is

480
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: it for bots and scammers and advertisers and seo hacks.

481
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 3: Or something else?

482
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: And so I think when we're thinking about this Reddit protest,

483
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: I think it really like so goes Reddit, so goes

484
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: the Internet. And I do think it's interesting that these

485
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: Reddit moderators are not taking this lying down.

486
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 3: If there's anything I know about Reddit.

487
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 1: They are a vocal and passionate group of people. So

488
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: you're seeing all of these kind of like roundabout protests

489
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: where they were forced to when they went they took

490
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: their subreddits private, and then they were kind of forced

491
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: by Reddit to open them up, and so now they're

492
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: finding all of these cheeky ways to continue that protest.

493
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: Like a women's fashion subredit it's pretty big that I follow.

494
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: They are now only posting fashion from like the seventeen

495
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: hundreds as a way to sort of get around it.

496
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: I think one of the large photo subreddits is now

497
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: only posting pictures of John Oliver. So there's all these

498
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,959
Speaker 1: little ways of like sticking it to Reddit suits in

499
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: forms of protests that I think have been really interesting.

500
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 1: But it is not surprising to me that users are

501
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: protesting this decision by Reddit top breasts because it's not good, right,

502
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: It's not good because I think it makes the user

503
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: experience worse, but also shutting down free API access also

504
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: shuts out researchers researchers at universities, bank tanks, government agencies

505
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: and other organizations have really relied for years on access

506
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: to the back end of Twitter and red to be

507
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: able to do research about what's going on on those platforms.

508
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: That includes keeping tabs on things like disinformation trends, conspiracy theories,

509
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: timely monitoring of new disinformation spreading online, analysis of the

510
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: networks behind disinformation and harassment campaigns, as well as studies

511
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: on political discourse, health issues, and a whole bunch of

512
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: topics right like how people are having discourse on the

513
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: Internet tells us so much about what's happening with us

514
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: in the real world, what's happening to our government, what's

515
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: happening in politics, what's happening in our Pacific world, and

516
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: not allowing people who research and track and monitor trends

517
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: in those arenas really puts us all at risk.

518
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually personal for me because I have used

519
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: both Twitter and Reddit's APIs in my own research in

520
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: the past, and it's it's such a valuable resource for

521
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: researchers to be able to look into what is going

522
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 2: on on the Internet. And like you mentioned, there are

523
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 2: some really like high stake things like monitoring disinformation ends.

524
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: It's been used in violent conflicts to alert people to

525
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: when there's like some sort of attack happening so that

526
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: people can get out of that space. But there's also

527
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: this huge number of studies that have been done about

528
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 2: things that are like somewhat lower stakes but also valuable.

529
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: For example, I was involved in a study a while

530
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: ago that was looking at the subreddit quit vaping, And

531
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: it was a subreddit of people who were trying to

532
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: quit vaping, and so the researchers wanted to look at,

533
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,239
Speaker 2: like what were people saying, were they getting, were they

534
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: exchanging accurate information? Were they was there like misinformation happening there?

535
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: And you know, they found that for the most part,

536
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 2: people were exchanging accurate information and social support and it

537
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: was great. And so it's just like a nice little

538
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: study that contributed to scientific understanding of how people give

539
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 2: each other social support for health behavior change online. So

540
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: like not super high stakes, but valuable information and also

541
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: a really accessible way for young researchers and like grad

542
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: students to do interesting, meaningful research without having a lot

543
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: of funds. You know, often grad students get paid very little.

544
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 2: They can often have little access to resources and so

545
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: using these APIs was a valuable a way that they

546
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 2: could do valuable research despite not having a lot of

547
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 2: access to funds. And so now that these platforms are

548
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: charging for access to these APIs, it's going to make

549
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 2: it much harder, if not impossible, for a lot of

550
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: that research to happen. And so these, you know, the

551
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: army of grad students out there who really fuel a

552
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: lot of the research that happens in this country and

553
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: just across academia and across science, they are going to

554
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: find other ways to do research in other areas, and

555
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: so our visibility into what's happening on the Internet is

556
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: going to be that much darker.

557
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, think about the grad students people. No, you're right,

558
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: And I think like it comes down to a conversation

559
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: that I keep returning to that I had with Paris

560
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: Marx about who it is that is designing the future

561
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: of the Internet for all of us, right, and like

562
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: really look, really drilling down deep into who these people

563
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: are and the internet and digital future that they want

564
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: and that they're fighting for, and who benefits from that more.

565
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 4: After a quick.

566
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 5: Break, let's get right back into it.

567
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: I saw this really interesting thing online about this series

568
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: of I would say like not great interviews that Reddit

569
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: CEO Steve Huffman gave to first The Verge and then

570
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: NBC where he was like really praising Elon Musk and

571
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: basically saying that the way that Elon Musk is running

572
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: Twitter is like how he wants to run Reddit, he said,

573
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: setting a good example of how he wants to run Reddit.

574
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: We know that the way that Elon Musk has been

575
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: running Twitter has been rampant layoffs, being pretty disrespectful to

576
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: both users and staff.

577
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 3: If that is what you see as.

578
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: A role model for how you run a company, that

579
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: is a big part of how the Internet functions and

580
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: Internet discourse is, I think that we're all in trouble.

581
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: Ben Collins at NBC called it CEO contagion, which I

582
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: had never heard before and I thought was great. Where

583
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: executives have effectively rebranded hostility to customers and cruel worker

584
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: exploitation as being like Elon And apparently this phenomena is

585
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: everywhere in tech company boardrooms right now, whether they're making

586
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: it explicit like the Reddit CEO Seve Huffman is and

587
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: these interviews, or if they're just like keeping their cards

588
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: close to their chest saying like, yeah, we should start

589
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: running our company the way that Elon Musk is. And

590
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: I think you really have to call into question who

591
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: these men are who have been given such outsized impact

592
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: over the future of the Internet. Because the future of

593
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: the Internet really matters. It matters for all of us.

594
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: I have made this point so many times. What happens

595
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: online deeply affects what happens in real life. That then

596
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: dioram as a circle. And so when we give people

597
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: like Steve Huffman and Elon Musk an outsized role in

598
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: shaping the future of the Internet, we are giving them

599
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: a role in shaping.

600
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: The future of so much.

601
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: And so it's really something that we've really got to

602
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: keep an eye on.

603
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: You know, this Reddit story. At first I thought it

604
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 3: was kind of.

605
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: A niche story, but I keep returning to it because

606
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: I really deeply do think it is a battle for

607
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: the future of the Internet and we should all be

608
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: paying attention.

609
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: Completely agree, I think that is exactly the right framing,

610
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: Like who is the Internet for? Is it for these

611
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: like rich CEO trolls like Elon Musk who just purchased

612
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: this platform with money, or is it for the millions

613
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: of redditors who have been construed beating content, moderating content,

614
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: building community, maintaining community, uh for decades, right, like they

615
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: the redditors built reddit, right, like Steve Huffman did not.

616
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: It's maddening and like you say, it's it's dangerous because

617
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: they Yeah, in those interviews, Steve Huffman was, you know,

618
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: praising Elon Musk and these you know, actions of disrespect.

619
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: And I think disrespect is the perfect word to characterize

620
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: this attitude towards users, towards workers. And if that's where

621
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: he's coming from, what kind of product is going to

622
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: grow out of that?

623
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 5: Uh?

624
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: Not a good one. Not a good internet that serves

625
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: the needs of the population, and you know, makes people

626
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: feel safe and valued and want to show up.

627
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: So you mentioned internet trolls earlier, and we kind of

628
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: have to talk about RFK Junior on Joe Rogan. I

629
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: don't really want to, but let's just step into it anyway.

630
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: So anti VAX's conspiracy theorist and presidential candidate Robert F.

631
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior did a three and a half hour stint

632
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: on Joe Rogan's Spotify original podcast last week, and the

633
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: results were not great. First of all as a podcaster

634
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: three and a half hours, I can't kidding me.

635
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: Ever heard of a fucking editor?

636
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: I hope our listeners don't expect the three and a

637
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: half hour episode because that's just like not happening. I don't.

638
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: Part of me is like amazed and impressed by it,

639
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: but part of me is like, that's just like so

640
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: much time, Like, don't they have other things they need

641
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: to do?

642
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 4: Maybe not? I guess, I guess not.

643
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: I guess this is what they do.

644
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 4: Ugh.

645
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel uncomfortable when I put out an

646
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: episode's that goes over an hour. I'm like, oh, were

647
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: really getting into rogan territory? Like, yeah, three hours?

648
00:33:58,640 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: That is a marathon.

649
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: So on the show, RFK talked about the usual conspiracy

650
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: theories about vaccines, five g wi FI and illnesses that.

651
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 3: Have been debunked long ago.

652
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: I honestly don't want to list them all here, but

653
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: if you want to know, if you want to know

654
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: what specific conspiracy theories these people trafficked in, Anna Merlin

655
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: has a great breakdown advice which will link in the

656
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: show notes. She called the episode quote an orgy of

657
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: unchecked vaccine misinformation, some conspiracy mongering about five G technology

658
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: and Wi Fi, and of course broke in once again

659
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: praising ivormetrin and ineffective faux COVID treatment. So I love

660
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: the idea. I love the phrase an orgy of unchecked misinformation.

661
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: That's exactly what it is. Honestly, this stuff is just

662
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: so boring. When I was going to, you know, write

663
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 1: my outline for this bit of the show, I was like,

664
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: we are just talking about rehashing stuff that we have,

665
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: like has been done to death. The whole thing just

666
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: feels very twenty twenty one. Like I was like, we're

667
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: getting into vaccine misinformation again again. We're talking about I'm

668
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: a metrin again, Like didn't we do that? It just

669
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 1: feels very like early pandemic twenty twenty one. Merlin asked

670
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: Spotify if they were going to take the episode down

671
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: to align with their COVID misinformation policy. They basically kind

672
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: of danced around it again. You can read their response

673
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: on the vice piece. You know, folks might remember that

674
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: there was a whole conversation about Joe Rogan and misinformation

675
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: when Neil Young and others removed their content from Spotify

676
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 1: to protest him continuing to traffic in misinformation.

677
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it just feels like we're here again.

678
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: Like I don't just feel I feel like this is

679
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: like a real Groundhog Day of a story where it's like, oh,

680
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: he's doing it again. Oh they're asking Spotify again, and

681
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: they're like giving pr nothing speak and doing nothing.

682
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 3: So basically, here's where it gets kind of interesting.

683
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: When an actual doctor, Peter Hoats, a vaccine scientist at

684
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: Baylor College of Medicine, took to Twitter to rebut ourfk's

685
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: claims about vaccines, Joe Rogan replied by inviting the doctor

686
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: to come on the podcast and debate our FK. The

687
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: doctor declined, and he said, I'll come on for like

688
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: a one on one conversation or an interview, but I'm

689
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: not doing a debate. Then, of course, Elon Musk, I'm sorry,

690
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: this is the third time we've mentioned him. Had to

691
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: get his two cents in, had to butt in because

692
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan RFK Elon Musk, They're all like, like, we

693
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: need a word for that group of people, like you

694
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like we don't have a we

695
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: don't have a good word for them.

696
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 3: We need a word for them. But because his buddy

697
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 3: Joe Rogan was getting into it. Elon Musk.

698
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: Of course he had to get his two cents in,

699
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: and he said that this doctor was just afraid of

700
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: open debate because he knew that he would lose, so

701
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 1: rather unfortunately, this doctor said that the whole thing ended

702
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: with two people showing up outside of his house urging

703
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: him to debate Joe Rogan, which like this is like

704
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: I can't wrap my.

705
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: Head around this.

706
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: Can you imagine not one, but two people getting into

707
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: their car, like taking off work whatever they got to do,

708
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: getting a babysitter, getting in their car, searching this guy's address,

709
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 1: driving to his house, standing outside out of his house,

710
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: making a nuisance of themselves in the name of defending

711
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: the honor of Joe Rogan. Like, I can't even wrap

712
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: my head around the kind of person who does this.

713
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 2: We do need a name for these people. Maybe our

714
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 2: listeners can suggest one. Either they could like connect with

715
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: you on social or you know, write in on email

716
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: Hello at tangoty dot com. I'd love to hear some ideas.

717
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: I feel like some form of jock should be in

718
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,439
Speaker 2: the name, because there's like a very like internet jock

719
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: or like social media jock or something. I don't know

720
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: these I'm not good at coming up with names. But

721
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: like the whole this whole thing feels very like Sportsey,

722
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: you know, the idea that this doctor is afraid to

723
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: debate because he'll he knows it, he'll lose. Like this

724
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: guy is a he's a doctor, he's a he's a scientist, right,

725
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 2: He's trained to use science to learn the truth about

726
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: viruses is and how they impact the human body. He's

727
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: not trained in getting on the mic and having like

728
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: a debate on a podcast. That is a completely different

729
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: skill set, and it also has you know, winning a

730
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: debate like that has very little to do with the

731
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: actual truth of the thing. Right. It's like we live

732
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: in two different worlds from these people, where some of

733
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: us are interested in what is the truth about the

734
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: world and the COVID virus and how it affects our

735
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 2: bodies and things we can do to protect our bodies

736
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: from being harmed by it, and other people live in

737
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: a world where it's all just made up talking points,

738
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: where there is no truth, and scoring points and winning

739
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: the debate and getting clicks is the only thing that matters.

740
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 2: And I don't know how we like talk with them.

741
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a great this doctor should not I mean,

742
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: he was absolutely right to decline the invitation to debate

743
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan and RFK. You know, if rfk's vaccine misinformation

744
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: felt very twenty twenty one, the whole like debate me

745
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: bro thing feels like very twenty ten. It's just so

746
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: tired and boring. If anybody ever challenges you to a

747
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: public debate in twenty twenty three, you should decline on

748
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: principle alone. And I really like this tweet from the

749
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: Guardian's Hamilton Nolan about this. He said, I know you

750
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: did a PhD and wrote a book on this very

751
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: complex topic, but if you don't debate my horse on

752
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: stage at the county Fair, why should I believe you?

753
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: My horse can clamp his hoof once for yes and

754
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: twice for no. And doesn't that really illustrated? I mean,

755
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: I think like in a lot of ways, we are

756
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: in this era that is kind of beyond facts and

757
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: beyond credentials, and there is no point in debating somebody

758
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: who you cannot find a shared understanding of the facts, right, Like,

759
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: it's not going to be a worthy enterprise. It is

760
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: not to be something that is going to be it's

761
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: gonna serve anybody or make anybody smarter by watching two people,

762
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: one of whom is a credentialed scientist in this and

763
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: the other is Joe fucking Rogan, who is completely making.

764
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 3: Up his own facts.

765
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: And any kind of like institutional fact that you have

766
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: is just going to be discounted because like, oh it

767
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: came from the mainstream media. Oh, but it came from

768
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: big Farmer or whatever. Like this doctor is a vaccine specialist.

769
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: He went to school, he has credentials. It's one thing

770
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: to do a sit down interview about vaccines, you know,

771
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: on the show. It's quite another to be debating somebody

772
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 1: like RFK is an attorney, this guy is a doctor.

773
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: And since when is a debate on a podcast hosted

774
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: by a former news radio series regular the way that

775
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: medical facts are established?

776
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: You know?

777
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: This is one of those things that like, when I

778
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: was watching the Discourse unfold, it was getting me so

779
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: angry that I was like, I can't even pay attention

780
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: to this.

781
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: I saw somebody on Twitter.

782
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: Say, oh, well, really easy to get on your high

783
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: horse and hide behind your credentials.

784
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: And literally people.

785
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: Go to school and contribute to academia and research and

786
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: get credentials because they want to have expertise on stuff.

787
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 3: That is literally how it works.

788
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: Just attacking somebody because they happen to be an expert

789
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: just really goes to show how we're in this space

790
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: where to a lot of people, facts don't matter, reality

791
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, expertise doesn't matter, and in fact it's to

792
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: be suspect of and that the only thing that matters

793
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: is talking points and one upsmanship and clicks and engagement.

794
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 1: And that is why people like RFK, people like Elon Musk,

795
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: people like Joe Rogan do it.

796
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 3: It is a grift. It makes them money.

797
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: It makes this poor doctor, you know, have people show

798
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: up at his house in the middle of the night,

799
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: which is already unacceptable. This is why they do it,

800
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: don't I don't actually think they are serious. I think

801
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 1: they do it because they know it is a grift

802
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: and that there's a certain type of person who's always

803
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 1: going to be like, wow, they're really going against the grain,

804
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: they're really think for themselves, and they're always going to

805
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: give that more engagement.

806
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 3: It is just aggristed, it really is.

807
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: And the fact that they're still talking about invermectin that

808
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 2: like horse medicine that they for some reason thought was

809
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 2: a covid antidote. That really gives lie to the whole thing, right, Like,

810
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 2: if they just had vaccine skepticism, I don't think it's

811
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: justified in twenty twenty three, But like, okay, you have

812
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: some skepticism about this or that, fine, But the fact

813
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: that they're still talking about this invermectin as a covid

814
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 2: cure when there's zero evidence for it. It's been thoroughly debunked.

815
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: To the extent that you can debunk something that like

816
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: never had any evidence in the first place, is just

817
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 2: proof of how disingenuous they are and how insincere they

818
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: are about any curiosity about this, Right, Like, the most

819
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: cursory Internet search of, like, okay, what is the the

820
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: evidence that supports ivermectin would turn up the fact that

821
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: there is nothing, There is no evidence to support that.

822
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: It's just a complete fabrication, and yet they still continue

823
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: to repeat it. If they were sincerely interested in these questions,

824
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 2: they would find some answers, and the answers are easy

825
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: to find, but they're just not interested in that. They're

826
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: interested in the theater.

827
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the things that really gets me

828
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: about this story is that it's things that I feel

829
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 1: like have been pretty well settled.

830
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 3: You know.

831
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: This is that that is not a cure for COVID.

832
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: You should not like I have a metron is not

833
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 1: a cure for COVID. And then he also went back

834
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: to the idea that vaccines cause autism, which thank you

835
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: Jenny mccarsony for, you know, really getting that into the ecosphere.

836
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: But I think continuing to return to these thoroughly debunked

837
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories about health is something that really gets me.

838
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: And also there's something about RFK and and maybe sid

839
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan to a lessous extent, but I think to

840
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: people on the left who should know better, I think

841
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: is kind of attractive. And so I think one of

842
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: the reasons why I find this whole thing so upsetting

843
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: is that I have seen folks on the left who

844
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: should know better parenting this, amplifying this, saying things like, oh,

845
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 1: he makes some compelling points, but it's like, no, he's

846
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: making points that have been thoroughly debunked. If you just

847
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: did a Google search, it's not compelling points. And so

848
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: I'm concerned that the same way that people allowed Trump

849
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 1: to spew nonsense and conspiracy theories, and rather than calling

850
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: them out, they said, like, oh, well, he is asking

851
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: some questions, or like he is saying what people think,

852
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,479
Speaker 1: or any number of things excusing things that he would say.

853
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: I worry that we have learned nothing and we're going

854
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: to be doing the exact same thing in this upcoming

855
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: presidential election as well.

856
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

857
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Grammys, where they've determined that the

858
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: Grammys are for humans only kind of. The Recording Academy,

859
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 1: which is the organization behind the Grammy Awards, outlined brand

860
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 1: new rules ahead of next year's competition, one that states

861
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: outrights that only human creators are eligible for the music

862
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: industry's highest honors. It's a little bit tricky, but basically,

863
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: songs generated by AI can still be nominated, but there

864
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: has to be proof that a human meaningfully contributed to

865
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: the song too. So if there's an AI voice singing

866
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: a song or AI instrumentation, they might consider it. This

867
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: is what Harvey Mason Junior, the CEO of the Recording Academy,

868
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: told Grammy dot Com. But in songwriting based categories, it

869
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: has to have been written mostly by a human. I

870
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 1: do have some questions about what things like mostly or

871
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, a human meaningfully contributing to a song really means,

872
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: Like it seems like there's some room to be defined there.

873
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 1: But ultimately, I think it's probably a good thing that

874
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: the Recording Academy is putting some guardrails in place to

875
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: deal with what I imagine will probably become an inevitability in

876
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: music and songwriting that more and more human artists are

877
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: going to be collaborating with AI.

878
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

879
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 2: I think they should be commended for attempting to get

880
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: in front of this and for prioritizing humans. But man,

881
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: I think we are all headed towards a lot of

882
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: questions about what does it mean for a human to

883
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 2: have meaningfully created something versus that human using AI as

884
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: a tool to create something, Like I guess like the

885
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: nature of what it means to create something is going

886
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: to be something a topic that we all have to

887
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: start talking about, and I suspect there's going to be

888
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: very thorny answers.

889
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: We're actually doing an episode about AI and the creative arts.

890
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking to a screenwriter and a

891
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: creative about the WGA strike and how AI plays into

892
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: all of it. I do think that, you know, when

893
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: you look at what screenwriters are asking for when it

894
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: comes to AI, they want to ensure that AI is

895
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: only going to be used to like supplement a human's

896
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: creative writing process and not be generating the entire thing.

897
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 3: And so I do think that it is commendable that the.

898
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: Grammys are drawing a line in the stand and saying no,

899
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: this is how a human needs to be involved in

900
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: the process if AI is involved. But I do think,

901
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: like you said, like it is a question of what

902
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: this is going to look like, Like.

903
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't want to see an all

904
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 3: robot Grammys.

905
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: When I watch the Grammys, I want to see Gloria

906
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: Estefan and Celine Dion.

907
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: I don't want to see a bunch of robots. So

908
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 3: we'll see. Yeah.

909
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: If you think about great music over the past, you know,

910
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: like forever, it's always been something new, something transformational, somebody

911
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: who either crosses genres or invents something entirely new. And

912
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: AI can't do that, right Like, AI puts out patterns

913
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: based on what it's learned from what has already seen.

914
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 2: So I think, on the one hand, there's always going

915
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: to be a place for human creativity to come up

916
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: with new things that are transformational and change. And it's

917
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: just a big open question how AI is going to

918
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: show up in music, but it seems pretty likely that

919
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: it's definitely going to be there in some form.

920
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: This reminds me so much of the very first interview

921
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: we ever did on this podcast with Claire Evans, who

922
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: is so cool. She's one of my idols. She wrote

923
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: the book Broadband about how women contributed to computers from

924
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: the very beginning, and she's in the pop group Yacht

925
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: And one of the things that she talked about is

926
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 1: how in the eighties, when dj and musicians were using

927
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: things like drum machines and sampling to come up with

928
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: the genre that would then be called hip hop, there

929
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: was a time where some DJs were afraid that drum

930
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: machines and samplers were going to replace them, and that

931
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: it was the musicians who learned how to combine their

932
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 1: human talents with that technology to make a whole new genre.

933
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: Those were the ones who really thrived and did something cool.

934
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: And so I don't want to make it seem like I'm,

935
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: you know, an AI doom and Gloomer. I think that

936
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: there are going to be use cases in the creative

937
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: arts where AI can probably be a useful supplement to

938
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: a human in a studio, or to a human who

939
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: is writing something, or to a human who is making

940
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: some sort of music. But I worry that in a

941
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: society where we are so interested in exploiting and mining

942
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: and taking for capital, I worry that it will something

943
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: that probably does have a use case for creativity and

944
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: creating an entirely new cool thing that that like does

945
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: need a human knowing how to use this technology to do.

946
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 3: I worry that we're.

947
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 1: Just going to rely on exactly what you just described, right,

948
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: just like, how can we just recycle something that already

949
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 1: exists to make.

950
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 3: More crap that is derivative?

951
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 1: And I really worry that that's what the use case

952
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: is going to be. How can we make cheaper and

953
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: cheaper art. How can we, you know, continue to put

954
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: the squeeze on the humans that make that art in

955
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: favor of making worse and more derivative art that costs

956
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: us less money while continuing to generate capital. So I

957
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: think it's kind of a TBD how it looks down

958
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: the road. What the future of this technology looks like

959
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: for creative work. But I do think it is important

960
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: to be putting some early guardrails in place now, and

961
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: so I guess it seems like that's what the Recording

962
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: Academy is trying to do.

963
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, guardrails and also a statement of values, right that

964
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: it is human creativity that the Academy wants to celebrate.

965
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: So speaking of celebrate, I have a little bit of

966
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: good news. Illinois became the first state in the United

967
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: States to ban book bans in public libraries. Illinois Governor J. B.

968
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: Pritzker signed a bill to ban public libraries from banning books,

969
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: the first such legislation in the country. He said, book

970
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: bans are about censorship, marginalizing people, marginalizing ideas, and marginalizing facts.

971
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: Regimes banned books, not democracies. This is what he said

972
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: out of assigning ceremony at Chicago Public Library. We refuse

973
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: to let a vitriolic strain of white nationalism coursing through

974
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: our country determine whose histories are told, not.

975
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 3: In Illinois, which kudos to him.

976
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: This new legislation takes place on January first, and it

977
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: says that public libraries must adopt the American Library Association's

978
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: Library Bill of Rights or their own statement prohibiting book

979
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 1: banning to be eligible for any state money. The Association's

980
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: Library Bill of Rights states that reading materials should not

981
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 1: be prescribed or removed because of partisan roductional disapproval, or

982
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: excluded because of the origin, background, or views of those

983
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: contributing to their creation. And so it kind of goes

984
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: back to what I was saying earlier about the Arkansas thing.

985
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: This might be cautiously optimistic, and I'm kind of I

986
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: want to choose my words carefully here, but I do wonder,

987
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: slash hope if this is a signal that the extremists

988
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 1: who are trying to use marginalized people as a wedge

989
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: issue are losing, and they know they are losing because

990
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: people don't want this. In a democracy, people don't want

991
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: books banned from public libraries, books about marginalized people. People

992
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,919
Speaker 1: want books about marginalized people. People are buying those books

993
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: are flying off the shelves, as we talked about in

994
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: one of our earlier newscasts. People don't want this. And

995
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm cautiously optimistic that this is a sign that the

996
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: extremists who are pushing this this very small but vocal

997
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: number of extremists know that they are losing and know

998
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: that the rest of the public is not on their side.

999
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1000
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: I hope you're right in that optimism, because it does

1001
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 2: seem like the extremes is the right word here, right.

1002
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 2: The people pushing for these book bands are not middle

1003
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: of the road Republicans who are trying to win elections.

1004
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: They are extremists with an extreme agenda. Whether it's anti gay,

1005
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 2: anti trans, anti sex, just straight out to lunch, it's

1006
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: extreme extremists. And for years, I think relatively moderate politicians

1007
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 2: on the right we're more than happy to pander to

1008
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 2: these extremists to get their votes. And I am also

1009
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: cautiously optimistic that the bill is coming due and it's

1010
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 2: catching up to them about issues like these book bans.

1011
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: I think abortion is another issue where they are realizing

1012
00:53:54,840 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 2: that by catering to these extreme extremists who are so

1013
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: out of step with what the general population wants, it's

1014
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: a losing recipe electorally.

1015
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 5: Uh.

1016
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: And I hope that continues.

1017
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: A point that I make all the time as somebody

1018
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: who thinks about and studies disinformation, is that the reason

1019
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: why I know these extremists are losing, and aware that

1020
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: that they're aware that they're losing is that they lie.

1021
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: If they had positions that were popular, that people agreed

1022
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: with and liked, they would not have to lie. So

1023
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: when extremists like the people who run the organization Moms

1024
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: for Liberty, you know who, by the way, just used

1025
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: a Hitler quote in their flyer recently, so like pretty

1026
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: like saying a loud part loud when they lie about

1027
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: the kind of books and the content of these books.

1028
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: When extremists lie and say that target is selling you know,

1029
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 1: chess binders for toddlers, or took friendly swimsuits for toddlers,

1030
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 1: or shirts for children that have Satan on them, which

1031
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: they're doing, no such thing. When anti abortion extremists lie

1032
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: about their positions on abortion and they say, oh, this

1033
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: is just leaving them up to the states, we're not

1034
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: actually banning abortion, or oh like this is actually quite moderate,

1035
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 1: that's all lies. When they lie, it is because they

1036
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: know their positions are not popular. If they were popular,

1037
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: if people agreed with them, they wouldn't have.

1038
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 3: To lie to get people on board.

1039
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 1: And so I think it really I'm cautiously optimistic that

1040
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: people are waking up. They're saying, Oh, these people, the

1041
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: things that they're that they're the positioning as you know,

1042
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: just them moderately asking questions about society and trying to

1043
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 1: protect kids or whatever lie they're telling.

1044
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 3: I think that people are waking up to the.

1045
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: Fact that that is bs and that that doesn't move

1046
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: people right. I think that we also, for too long,

1047
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: have had a media climate that is too afraid to

1048
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: talk about these issues for what they are. We saw

1049
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: the whole thing with the critical race theory panic, where

1050
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: the mainstream media was all too happy to do the

1051
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: dirty work of extremists for them by lending credence to

1052
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: the ideas that, yeah, kindergarteners are being taught critical race theory,

1053
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: this high minded.

1054
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 3: Collegiate level, you know, idea. When they weren't.

1055
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 1: They were way too happy to make it seem like, oh,

1056
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 1: these are just parents concerned about things like bathroom bills

1057
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: and you know, protecting girls in sports. And now I

1058
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: think that all of that stuff is coming home to

1059
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: russ and I hope that people remember this come election

1060
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: time that I don't think that your average American is

1061
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 1: moved by this. I don't think that your average American

1062
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: walks around on their day to day being really outraged

1063
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: about what Target is selling or what books about LGBTQ

1064
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 1: people or black people are in their libraries. I really don't,

1065
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: and so I'm cautiously optimistic that come November we will

1066
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: see that come to fruition. So one last thing, we

1067
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: got to quickly talk about this, Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, what

1068
00:56:58,160 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: is this the fourth time you've brought him up? I'm

1069
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: so sorry, so Musk heavy episode this cage match that

1070
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 1: they're talking about. So Elon Musk recently tweeted that he

1071
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: would be up for a cage fight with Facebook meta

1072
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: CEO Mark Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg shot back with an image of

1073
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: Musk's tweet with the caption send me your locations. It

1074
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 1: sounds like these two heads of major tech companies intend

1075
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: to have some kind of a cage match, physical fight.

1076
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: And all I have to say about this is that

1077
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: this is what happens when men run tech companies. And

1078
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 1: that's all I have to say about that. I do

1079
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: have one more thing I want to talk about. I'm

1080
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: sure folks by now have seen the Ocean Gate tragedy

1081
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: where a billionaire and his kid and other folks went

1082
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: down to check out the ruins of the Titanic and

1083
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: did not make it. There have been so many conspiracy

1084
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: theories around how folks are talking about this tragedy and

1085
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: a really interesting Q question mark online discourse. So I

1086
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: want to talk about this, but this story is everywhere,

1087
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: so I'm going to save it for the Patreon. So

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00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: if you want to hear my thoughts about the Ocean

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00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: Gate tragedy, what conspiracy theories are sort of taking root,

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00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: because some of them are quite interesting. What conspiracy theories

1091
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: are taking root about how folks are talking about this

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00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,439
Speaker 1: and the online discourse around this tragedy and how folks

1093
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: were talking about it. Check out our patreon. You can

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00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: check out at patreon dot com slash Tangody. I would

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00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: love to have that conversation with you there, Mike. Thank

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00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: you so much for being here as always.

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00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me Bridget, it was a pleasure, and.

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00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening again. You can check out

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00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: our patreon from our ad free content and to support

1100
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: the show and I'll see you soon. Got a story

1101
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to

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00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: say hi, You can reach us at Hello at Tegody

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00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode

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00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the

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00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. It's a production

1106
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.

1107
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amado

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00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

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00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us

1110
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out

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00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.