WEBVTT - An Experiment in Universal Basic Income 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.756 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.796 --> 0:00:25.796 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.196 --> 0:00:31.956 I'm Noah Feldman. Last February, thirty five year old Thomas 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:35.476 Vargas received an envelope in the mail. It held a 0:00:35.556 --> 0:00:38.996 debit card with five hundred dollars loaded onto it. I 0:00:39.076 --> 0:00:42.316 was shocked, kind of like thought it was not true 0:00:42.396 --> 0:00:45.916 or it was fake, but the money was real. Vargas 0:00:45.916 --> 0:00:49.036 had been randomly selected to take part in an eighteen 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:53.556 month universal basic income pilot program being run by the 0:00:53.596 --> 0:00:58.196 City of Stockton, California. Every month until July twenty twenty, 0:00:58.436 --> 0:01:01.596 he'll get another five hundred dollars and be able to 0:01:01.636 --> 0:01:05.076 spend that money on anything he wants. It's in fact 0:01:05.076 --> 0:01:09.676 of my life greatly. I've been able to better, Like 0:01:09.796 --> 0:01:12.436 I guess the goals that I wanted to do. I 0:01:12.596 --> 0:01:15.036 will able to go and sign it back up for school. 0:01:15.756 --> 0:01:18.716 My kids are also able to get more schooling or 0:01:18.836 --> 0:01:22.356 more tutoring if they say ahead of their education. My 0:01:22.436 --> 0:01:25.356 health and my stress level is better. I find that 0:01:25.396 --> 0:01:28.716 I'm more energized, more happier than what I was before. 0:01:29.396 --> 0:01:32.036 Vargas is hoping that the program will eventually expand to 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:34.636 help more people on a national level. Yeah, I can 0:01:34.676 --> 0:01:37.956 see helping a lot of people out in a major way. 0:01:37.996 --> 0:01:39.476 I mean, a lot of people struggle or whatever, and 0:01:39.476 --> 0:01:41.596 if they have the opportunity to receive something like this, 0:01:41.916 --> 0:01:44.356 they could sit there and get theirselves out of the situation, 0:01:44.516 --> 0:01:46.276 or sit there and help to make it better in 0:01:46.396 --> 0:01:49.196 some way somehow. It's a long shot, but maybe it 0:01:49.196 --> 0:01:53.716 could happen. In part thanks to Democratic presidential candidate Andrew Yang, 0:01:53.876 --> 0:01:57.196 who's made it a central part of his platform, universal 0:01:57.236 --> 0:02:01.276 basic income has actually gotten some buzz around it. What 0:02:01.356 --> 0:02:04.996 would it actually be like, though, if every American received 0:02:05.076 --> 0:02:08.276 some sort of set basic income from the government on 0:02:08.316 --> 0:02:11.236 a monthly basis. To get a sense of the way 0:02:11.276 --> 0:02:15.236 this could look, I spoke with Stockton's Mayor Michael Tubbs 0:02:15.476 --> 0:02:19.676 and with Suki Samra, who's been tasked with overseeing Stockton's 0:02:19.796 --> 0:02:23.876 universal basic income pilot project. Mayor Michael Tubbs, I want 0:02:23.876 --> 0:02:27.836 to start by asking you how you ended up involved 0:02:27.876 --> 0:02:30.196 in this project. I mean, here you are, six years 0:02:30.196 --> 0:02:32.116 out of college, a whole six years out of college, 0:02:32.636 --> 0:02:35.796 and the first African American mayor of your city, the 0:02:35.876 --> 0:02:38.596 youngest mayor in the history of your city. It's not 0:02:38.676 --> 0:02:41.996 the most obvious thing to take on as a high 0:02:42.036 --> 0:02:46.156 profile signature project. So how did it come about? Well, 0:02:47.276 --> 0:02:50.476 before being mayors, on city council for four years and 0:02:50.516 --> 0:02:53.276 as a city council member representing the South part of 0:02:53.316 --> 0:02:57.516 the city, poverty was just frequently on my desk as 0:02:58.316 --> 0:03:00.596 an issue we never talked about, but we were solving 0:03:00.636 --> 0:03:02.676 for with all these other means. So we would have 0:03:02.716 --> 0:03:07.116 conversations about employed things like education and healthcare, access to 0:03:07.156 --> 0:03:10.876 healthy foods, and safety, and the crux of all those issues, 0:03:10.876 --> 0:03:13.676 in my opinion, was just to persistent rate of poverty 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:17.076 and how people just were in areas of lack. So 0:03:17.116 --> 0:03:20.676 then when I became mayor, I challenged my team to 0:03:20.756 --> 0:03:22.916 really think through sort of what can a city do 0:03:23.036 --> 0:03:26.076 to really address issues of poverty. And I told my team, 0:03:26.116 --> 0:03:28.676 I said I don't want anything I've heard before. I 0:03:28.716 --> 0:03:31.636 wanted to be bold and a little bit crazy. And 0:03:31.676 --> 0:03:34.076 then they came back with this idea of a basic income. 0:03:34.356 --> 0:03:37.076 I say, well, you know about you guys, it's one 0:03:37.156 --> 0:03:39.676 year in office. I would love to be re elected, 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:42.236 so maybe we'll wait to our second term to even 0:03:42.276 --> 0:03:45.236 begin this conversation because it seems like, particularly in a 0:03:45.356 --> 0:03:49.076 city that was just struggling from bankruptcy, was a non starter. 0:03:49.916 --> 0:03:54.156 Fast forward to a week after my team came back 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:56.036 with the idea of basic income, I was at a 0:03:56.076 --> 0:03:59.476 conference on the Future of Work in San Francisco where 0:03:59.476 --> 0:04:02.236 I connected with Natalie Foster, when the co chairs of 0:04:02.276 --> 0:04:05.076 the Economic Security Project, and she said that she was 0:04:05.156 --> 0:04:07.556 looking for a city to pile the basic income in 0:04:08.476 --> 0:04:11.676 Philipdropic we funded, and I said, well, I have a 0:04:11.716 --> 0:04:14.636 task for us to investigate this issue. So then we 0:04:14.716 --> 0:04:18.236 spent six months kind of going back and forth talking 0:04:18.236 --> 0:04:20.236 about what it would look like, sort of some of 0:04:20.276 --> 0:04:23.196 the values we shared, and I finally agreed to do 0:04:23.236 --> 0:04:27.716 it because I realized that too often the conversations about 0:04:27.916 --> 0:04:31.956 poverty or the working poor, even the economic structure of 0:04:31.996 --> 0:04:37.116 our countries, positions people, particularly people of color, particularly women, 0:04:37.636 --> 0:04:42.756 as passive victims or as people who are lazy and 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:45.596 make bad decisions and need a bunch of coaching and 0:04:45.636 --> 0:04:49.636 financial literacy to defeat poverty. And I thought that Stockton, 0:04:49.716 --> 0:04:52.956 given us diversity, given where we had started from, and 0:04:52.996 --> 0:04:55.316 just given the people I know as mayor, that it 0:04:55.316 --> 0:04:58.236 would be beautiful to a position the people of Stockton, immigrants, 0:04:58.276 --> 0:05:01.356 people of color, women, young people, people who are working 0:05:01.356 --> 0:05:04.716 incredibly hard. As a center of a conversation around what 0:05:05.876 --> 0:05:07.796 does a guarantee income look like in this country? But 0:05:07.836 --> 0:05:10.996 more importantly, what does do you mean? And what type 0:05:11.036 --> 0:05:12.836 of society do we want to live in? So I 0:05:12.876 --> 0:05:17.036 decided to go ahead and launch the pilot. Suki Samurai, 0:05:17.236 --> 0:05:19.436 you're running the program, and I want to learn more 0:05:19.476 --> 0:05:23.596 about the details of how you're going about doing it. 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:27.076 Usually universal basic income goes to everybody, but this is 0:05:27.116 --> 0:05:29.396 a pilot project, so the money's not going to everybody. 0:05:29.756 --> 0:05:32.196 So I'd like to know how many people are getting 0:05:32.196 --> 0:05:35.156 the money, and perhaps most significantly, how you chose them. 0:05:36.036 --> 0:05:38.916 So the question of who was going to be selected 0:05:38.996 --> 0:05:43.036 was determined after a pretty deep community engagement process. So 0:05:43.076 --> 0:05:45.956 we announced the plan back in October of twenty seventeen, 0:05:46.236 --> 0:05:48.916 and after that we launched into a design phase where 0:05:48.956 --> 0:05:54.476 we asked the community, including elected officials, residents, leaders of nonprofits, 0:05:54.716 --> 0:05:57.796 who they thought should benefit from the program. There were 0:05:57.876 --> 0:06:00.356 three common design ideals that were echoed over and over 0:06:00.396 --> 0:06:03.436 again and that ultimately helped us determine what our selection 0:06:03.556 --> 0:06:06.676 criteria would be. And those three design ideals was that 0:06:06.716 --> 0:06:09.636 the selection process be fair so everyone at about a 0:06:09.716 --> 0:06:12.996 roughly equal chance of being selected. That it be diverse 0:06:13.076 --> 0:06:16.716 and representative of Stockton. So recognizing that diversity is one 0:06:16.756 --> 0:06:19.036 of our greatest assets, making sure that the folks were 0:06:19.076 --> 0:06:22.556 ultimately selected to receive the guaranteed income, we're representative of 0:06:22.556 --> 0:06:25.516 our diversity as well, and that we maximize our ability 0:06:25.556 --> 0:06:29.476 to learn. So Stocktonians recognized the unique opportunity that we 0:06:29.556 --> 0:06:32.916 had to really influence the national conversation around not just 0:06:32.956 --> 0:06:36.036 a guaranteed income, but around an economy that's falling short 0:06:36.076 --> 0:06:39.876 for far too many Americans. So with those three design ideals, 0:06:40.116 --> 0:06:42.836 the selection criteria that we lended on were actually pretty simple. 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:45.396 One was that folks had to be at least eighteen 0:06:45.476 --> 0:06:47.756 years of age or older, that they lived in Stockton, 0:06:48.116 --> 0:06:49.876 and that they lived in a neighborhood where the area 0:06:49.996 --> 0:06:52.956 meeting income was at forty six thousand dollars or below. 0:06:53.236 --> 0:06:56.876 And that number we settled on because that's Stockton's citywide 0:06:56.916 --> 0:07:00.396 meeting income as well. That was a selection criteria. From there, 0:07:00.836 --> 0:07:03.996 we actually did a randomized selection, so we worked with 0:07:04.036 --> 0:07:07.356 our research team to identify the qualifying neighborhoods where the 0:07:07.356 --> 0:07:10.236 meeting income was again at or below forty six thousand dollars. 0:07:10.596 --> 0:07:13.676 We randomly selected forty two hundred households and sent them 0:07:13.716 --> 0:07:17.716 a letter inviting them to participate. That letter detailed the 0:07:18.636 --> 0:07:21.516 opportunities they had to participate, either as part of our 0:07:21.556 --> 0:07:23.916 treatment group or the folks who are receiving the five dollars, 0:07:24.036 --> 0:07:26.316 or as part of our control group. Of the people 0:07:26.316 --> 0:07:29.756 that responded to that letter and responding entailed going online, 0:07:29.756 --> 0:07:32.356 filling out a consent form one hundred and twenty five, 0:07:32.556 --> 0:07:35.316 or randomly selected to be in our treatment group or 0:07:35.316 --> 0:07:38.756 to receive the five hundred dollars a month. So basically, 0:07:38.756 --> 0:07:42.316 what you're describing is a pretty rigorous design of an 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:46.396 experiment in a randomized model, which the social scientists like 0:07:46.476 --> 0:07:49.116 to say is the gold standard of the best way 0:07:49.156 --> 0:07:52.716 you can figure out whether something is working. It's too soon, 0:07:52.756 --> 0:07:54.836 I guess, to say whether it's working or not, and 0:07:54.876 --> 0:07:58.476 you don't want to break the structure of the experiment 0:07:58.516 --> 0:08:01.516 by theorizing too soon. But I guess the first question 0:08:01.516 --> 0:08:04.596 that that makes me ask is, let's say it's great. 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:07.716 Let's say you find after you look through all the 0:08:07.796 --> 0:08:11.396 data after July twenty twenty that there were substantially better 0:08:11.596 --> 0:08:15.396 life outcomes for people who received this five hundred dollars 0:08:15.396 --> 0:08:19.596 a month payment over an eighteen month period. What happens then, 0:08:19.996 --> 0:08:23.116 I mean, your city is a city, mister Mayor, of 0:08:23.396 --> 0:08:26.036 just over three hundred thousand people, if I'm not mistaken, 0:08:26.796 --> 0:08:29.596 and that's a pretty far cry from one hundred and 0:08:29.636 --> 0:08:33.396 twenty five people. Is there a plausible way to take 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:36.396 this forward, assuming that it works well? No? No, absolutely. 0:08:36.476 --> 0:08:40.476 I think for me, I've used cities as laboratories of democracy, 0:08:40.596 --> 0:08:44.236 meaning that for any intervention, Being a nerd, I like 0:08:44.316 --> 0:08:46.716 to test it and kind of see what works and 0:08:46.956 --> 0:08:50.236 kind of see impacts before making the case for a scale, 0:08:50.236 --> 0:08:52.956 which is why I think pilots and philanthropy could be 0:08:52.956 --> 0:08:55.796 helpful in that regard. But to answer your question, I 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:58.756 think for any program my fists to take off at scale, 0:08:58.996 --> 0:09:01.236 it couldn't be city led. I don't know if any 0:09:01.276 --> 0:09:04.436 sea that has the resources to provide one hundred dollars 0:09:04.476 --> 0:09:07.276 a month to every resident of as five hundred thousand. 0:09:07.436 --> 0:09:12.316 But what we've seen from design to implementation is bold 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:14.636 policy proposals and ways to get us closer to there. 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:17.916 I think of in California, I'm governor in Newsom has 0:09:17.956 --> 0:09:21.636 doubled their earning income tax credit, which is a form 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:24.156 of giving folks cash and money. Um, there are a 0:09:24.196 --> 0:09:28.156 tax credit. We see folks like send Or Harris with 0:09:28.156 --> 0:09:31.796 her Lift America Act, who is calling for five hundred 0:09:31.796 --> 0:09:34.596 dollars a month every month to families in this country 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:36.676 and make a hundred care or less through the tax code. 0:09:37.156 --> 0:09:39.156 But I also want to take a step back because 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:42.916 I think if data actually drove decision making, the world 0:09:42.916 --> 0:09:44.996 in general and the society we live in will look 0:09:45.036 --> 0:09:47.916 radically different. So I think the results from the study 0:09:47.916 --> 0:09:50.076 are important. In the data is important, but it's going 0:09:50.116 --> 0:09:52.996 to be most important as the stories that we're able 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:55.836 to tell about people, people who are just like everyone else, 0:09:55.876 --> 0:09:58.116 that the rest of the body politic can see itself 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:00.956 reflected in who are doing good things with money and 0:10:00.996 --> 0:10:03.916 who are actually contributing. Can I ask a question about 0:10:03.916 --> 0:10:06.156 that though, I mean, so there's two you said two 0:10:06.156 --> 0:10:08.276 different things there, mister Mary, both of which are really interesting, 0:10:08.276 --> 0:10:10.236 but I think there might be a teeny bit of 0:10:10.236 --> 0:10:14.996 difference between them. So one is that data should drive 0:10:15.236 --> 0:10:17.636 more policymaking, and I'm very sympathetic to that view, and 0:10:17.676 --> 0:10:20.316 I think it's very impressive that you guys are doing 0:10:20.596 --> 0:10:23.956 a proper randomized controlled experiment so that there will be data. 0:10:24.036 --> 0:10:25.396 But then if that's the case, you have to be 0:10:25.436 --> 0:10:28.316 open to the possibility that the data will reveal that 0:10:28.516 --> 0:10:32.156 the program didn't work, didn't achieve any significant effects on 0:10:32.196 --> 0:10:34.516 the group of people who've been who've been getting the money. 0:10:35.116 --> 0:10:37.956 The other angle is the stories angle, that we want 0:10:37.956 --> 0:10:41.156 to get great stories out of a trial like this, 0:10:41.276 --> 0:10:43.516 and for that, I'm like one hundred percent sure that 0:10:43.516 --> 0:10:45.716 with one hundred and twenty five people you'll be able 0:10:45.716 --> 0:10:47.716 to tell some great stories. There will be some stories 0:10:47.716 --> 0:10:50.676 that people who did amazing things and improve their lives 0:10:50.996 --> 0:10:53.076 with a sextra amount of money. But that's not really 0:10:53.116 --> 0:10:55.476 the same thing as the data, right. I mean, from 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:57.436 the standpoint of an economist who looks at the randomized 0:10:57.476 --> 0:11:00.236 controlled experiment, their whole idea is to stay away from 0:11:00.276 --> 0:11:02.316 the stories, which are the kind of things that you know, 0:11:02.356 --> 0:11:04.876 with respect, that's what politicians like. They like anecdotes, they 0:11:04.916 --> 0:11:07.916 like stories to inspire people. So which is it. I mean, 0:11:08.036 --> 0:11:11.836 is this a case where the stories will help drive 0:11:11.876 --> 0:11:14.236 policy going forward, or is this a case where you're 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:17.356 going to rely on the hard data as a takeaway. Yeah, well, 0:11:17.396 --> 0:11:19.556 well I think we have. There's a bunch of different 0:11:19.556 --> 0:11:22.836 audiences and constituencies we're speaking to. So I think for 0:11:22.876 --> 0:11:25.476 the economists and for those who actually use data and 0:11:25.476 --> 0:11:27.716 look at data, the data is important, and for me 0:11:27.756 --> 0:11:30.876 it is as well. But being a pragmatist and understanding 0:11:30.916 --> 0:11:34.716 just how not just politics but policy and just how 0:11:34.956 --> 0:11:37.476 things happen in this country, narrative is an important part 0:11:37.476 --> 0:11:39.756 of that. And I think particularly when we're talking about 0:11:39.756 --> 0:11:43.956 basic income, we're also talking about issues of race. We're 0:11:43.996 --> 0:11:46.756 also talking about issues of who's deserving. We're also talking 0:11:46.796 --> 0:11:50.396 about issues attached to work and dignity and purpose and contribution. 0:11:50.436 --> 0:11:54.076 We're talking about issues of misogyny and sexism. We're talking 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:56.756 about all these very thorny issues that no amount of 0:11:56.836 --> 0:11:59.556 data has been able to really move our country as 0:11:59.636 --> 0:12:01.756 quickly as I would like us see us move on 0:12:01.796 --> 0:12:05.356 these issues. But I do think kind of humanizing and 0:12:05.436 --> 0:12:08.436 putting stories and faces behind not just the data but 0:12:08.476 --> 0:12:13.236 the idea policy will lead to some forward step. But 0:12:13.276 --> 0:12:16.196 I think I tell people all the time the data, 0:12:16.316 --> 0:12:18.876 the research that's all independent of me. I have no 0:12:18.956 --> 0:12:22.596 interaction with the researchers, I I don't know who was 0:12:22.596 --> 0:12:26.756 selected that that's going to be independent, but regardless of 0:12:26.756 --> 0:12:29.876 what the data shows, I think it's also an opportunity 0:12:29.956 --> 0:12:33.436 to show just how hard people are working. I think 0:12:33.796 --> 0:12:37.156 the stories, if nothing else, will help illustrate that poor 0:12:37.196 --> 0:12:40.836 people aren't lazy, that people who struggle aren't less deserving, 0:12:41.516 --> 0:12:44.116 and that people have dignity that's inherent to their humanity, 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:45.996 is not attached to what they're able to produce for 0:12:46.036 --> 0:12:49.236 somebody in terms of work. So that's a really interesting 0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:51.076 point that you raise that Suki. I actually wanted to 0:12:51.116 --> 0:12:53.876 ask you about this, and in your talks with people 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:56.996 in the community and thinking about the design and implementing it, 0:12:57.516 --> 0:13:01.476 have you encountered anybody who has said to you, look, 0:13:01.516 --> 0:13:04.476 I actually don't want this. My own sense of dignity 0:13:04.556 --> 0:13:06.956 is defined as dignity by work. I want to be 0:13:06.956 --> 0:13:09.916 able to show that I've worked for what I've received, 0:13:10.396 --> 0:13:12.356 and I don't want any part of it for that reason. 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:16.076 Have you encountered people in Stockton who said, I don't 0:13:16.116 --> 0:13:18.676 want to be part of this program because I don't 0:13:18.716 --> 0:13:23.276 like the idea of a handout. We've definitely heard people 0:13:23.356 --> 0:13:26.876 say that they don't want the five hund dollars a month. 0:13:26.916 --> 0:13:29.516 But I think that comes from the point that Mayor 0:13:29.556 --> 0:13:32.396 raised earlier, from more of the racialized and gendered stereotypes 0:13:32.436 --> 0:13:35.996 that exist around the public welfare system at large. A 0:13:36.036 --> 0:13:39.156 lot of folks, definitely when the guaranteed income first started, 0:13:39.196 --> 0:13:40.756 felt like there was going to be a catch, that 0:13:40.836 --> 0:13:42.516 there was no way that they could just get the 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:45.196 five hundred dollars a month and there wouldn't be strings attached, 0:13:46.076 --> 0:13:48.756 and it's taken at least I mean, it took until 0:13:48.756 --> 0:13:51.196 at least a six seven month mark where people finally 0:13:51.196 --> 0:13:55.036 started believing that a government or an elected official really 0:13:55.076 --> 0:13:57.116 could believe in them enough and trust them enough to 0:13:57.156 --> 0:13:59.636 give them five hundred dollars a month without there being 0:13:59.716 --> 0:14:02.436 anything attached, without it needing to be attached to work. 0:14:02.956 --> 0:14:04.796 And what we see is that the five dollars a 0:14:04.796 --> 0:14:07.076 month is really just an income floor. The five dollars 0:14:07.116 --> 0:14:09.716 a month is not stopping folks from working. If anything, 0:14:09.796 --> 0:14:12.556 it's allowing people to find better jobs. So I think 0:14:13.636 --> 0:14:16.956 to answer your question, there's definitely our country has a 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:20.996 long history of attaching values to the money and to 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:24.076 quote unquote handouts that we give to our folks and 0:14:24.116 --> 0:14:26.636 it's taken for our recipients a couple of months to 0:14:26.676 --> 0:14:29.556 really break that down and realize that an elected official 0:14:29.636 --> 0:14:32.076 and really is here to see them thrive regardless of 0:14:32.116 --> 0:14:35.876 what they do with the cash. So you're recently graduated 0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:39.916 from Stanford and that's in the heart of Silicon Valley, 0:14:40.116 --> 0:14:44.876 and the Economic Security Project also comes out of Silicon Valley. Recently, 0:14:45.356 --> 0:14:48.996 Andrew Yang, who's a former tech entrepreneur, has put the 0:14:49.036 --> 0:14:51.916 topic of universal basic income on the national agenda in 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:56.716 his presidential run. What is it about Silicon Valley and 0:14:56.836 --> 0:15:00.676 universal basic income? Why is there some kind of a match? 0:15:00.876 --> 0:15:04.396 It seems even Elon musk as As embraced the idea. 0:15:04.516 --> 0:15:08.876 Why is there this kind of association between the valley 0:15:08.916 --> 0:15:12.836 and tech and on the one hand, and the idea 0:15:12.876 --> 0:15:15.956 of a universal basic income on the other. I think 0:15:15.956 --> 0:15:20.436 if the close association between tech and universal basic income 0:15:20.516 --> 0:15:22.756 is probably rooted in the fact that the folks who 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:25.596 are in Silicon Valley are most are the closest to 0:15:26.556 --> 0:15:30.036 automation and artificial intelligence, and so when they're thinking about 0:15:30.116 --> 0:15:32.956 the economy, they're looking at it from generally from a 0:15:32.956 --> 0:15:35.476 more future oriented lens in which they see that you know, 0:15:35.476 --> 0:15:38.916 the robots are coming, which will lead to displacement a 0:15:38.916 --> 0:15:42.476 lot of workers, and that will in turn disproportionately impact 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:45.916 quote unquote originally thought of as low skilled workers who 0:15:45.996 --> 0:15:48.916 tend to be people of color, and a universal basic 0:15:48.956 --> 0:15:51.956 income is positive as a one solution that could mitigate 0:15:51.996 --> 0:15:54.516 the effects of automation. I think for folks who are 0:15:54.556 --> 0:15:57.236 a little bit more removed from the Silicon Valley, it's 0:15:57.316 --> 0:15:59.356 a guaranteed income as posed a solution to an economy 0:15:59.396 --> 0:16:01.996 that's falling short for far too many Americans today. So 0:16:01.996 --> 0:16:04.996 I'll be recognized that the robots are indeed coming. It's 0:16:04.996 --> 0:16:08.076 also a matter of today one in for Stocktonians lives 0:16:08.076 --> 0:16:10.156 in poverty and today away teens in the nation for 0:16:10.236 --> 0:16:12.636 talent poverty. So how can we use a guaranteed income 0:16:12.636 --> 0:16:16.356 to address and make the economy better in this moment? 0:16:17.636 --> 0:16:20.916 Mayor Tubbs, can I ask you if I were designing 0:16:20.916 --> 0:16:23.796 a universal a basic income program, I wouldn't want it 0:16:23.796 --> 0:16:25.276 to be universal. I mean, one of the things that 0:16:25.316 --> 0:16:27.836 I thought was impressive about your program is that you 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:31.316 targeted it to some degree at people of lower income, 0:16:31.396 --> 0:16:34.436 just by choosing neighborhoods that were at or below the 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:37.996 city's median income line. I mean, that's not targeting narrow poverty, 0:16:38.076 --> 0:16:40.556 but it's at least trying to avoid giving away too 0:16:40.636 --> 0:16:42.756 much of this money to people who genuinely don't need it. 0:16:43.436 --> 0:16:45.916 And I'm wondering, how do you feel about the universal 0:16:45.956 --> 0:16:48.636 part of universal basic income? I mean, my instinct, again 0:16:48.676 --> 0:16:51.996 this is just speaking for myself, is that there's something 0:16:52.036 --> 0:16:56.476 crazy about giving people who don't need large amounts of 0:16:56.476 --> 0:16:59.236 money this kind of money. And I understand that the 0:16:59.276 --> 0:17:01.756 logic behind it is it gives greater dignity if it's 0:17:01.756 --> 0:17:04.596 available universally to everybody. But there you're just trading off 0:17:04.636 --> 0:17:09.756 dignity against significant redistribution of income in a situation where 0:17:10.076 --> 0:17:13.476 programs are extremely costly. So do you how do you 0:17:13.476 --> 0:17:17.236 feel about the universal part of universal income? I'm not 0:17:17.276 --> 0:17:22.356 gonna lie that I actually struggle. I struggle with that. Yeah, 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:26.796 And speaking candidly, I think if it was to go 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:30.716 at scale, it probably couldn't start us universal anyway. I mean, 0:17:30.836 --> 0:17:33.676 Chris Hughes talks about doing some sort of financial tax 0:17:34.036 --> 0:17:36.836 which would help folks making fifty k below with the 0:17:36.876 --> 0:17:40.076 income floor Sendor Harris with her and hundred k below 0:17:40.116 --> 0:17:42.716 for families I think we have to start there and iterate, 0:17:43.236 --> 0:17:47.076 but I would say I've actually have begin to understand 0:17:47.276 --> 0:17:51.036 why universality makes sense, and I think it goes to 0:17:51.076 --> 0:17:54.556 your point around kind of dignity, but also re establishing 0:17:54.836 --> 0:17:59.196 this idea of the commons in terms of and extending 0:17:59.196 --> 0:18:02.276 the social contract. So when I think of a lot 0:18:02.316 --> 0:18:06.956 of sort of public goods, whether it's public schools, even 0:18:06.996 --> 0:18:10.036 extremely wealthy people have access to those things, although they 0:18:10.076 --> 0:18:12.636 may not need them, UM, I think that it does 0:18:12.836 --> 0:18:15.956 build sort of the body politics, if you will. That 0:18:16.236 --> 0:18:19.756 and this idea of dignity has kept resurfacing in terms 0:18:19.756 --> 0:18:24.436 of people don't want to feel like they're they're needy, 0:18:24.556 --> 0:18:27.916 or they're less than UM. They want to feel like, oh, 0:18:27.956 --> 0:18:30.596 this is something that we're all getting UM. And I 0:18:30.596 --> 0:18:33.556 do think there's some there's some value to that UM. 0:18:33.596 --> 0:18:35.516 But I even when we were designing the program, I 0:18:35.556 --> 0:18:39.196 really struggled with the UM at or below the median 0:18:39.236 --> 0:18:41.996 income line, or or the fact that there's some people 0:18:42.036 --> 0:18:44.716 receiving the money who make more than me, who make 0:18:44.756 --> 0:18:48.156 eight hundred K. But then well, I've also learned it's 0:18:48.156 --> 0:18:51.396 that even people who make eighty ninety one fifty two 0:18:51.476 --> 0:18:55.316 hundred k, particularly in areas that are more a lot 0:18:55.396 --> 0:18:58.396 less affordable than Stockton, are still struggling. UM and I 0:18:58.476 --> 0:19:01.396 still have high rates to student debt, UM still may 0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:04.836 not have the best healthcare, and still could use a 0:19:04.876 --> 0:19:08.316 little income ushion as well. So i've i've I've relented 0:19:08.396 --> 0:19:11.196 that fact, and I think that whatever is And also 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:13.236 last thing, obviously, I also think in terms of what's 0:19:13.276 --> 0:19:17.796 politically possible, given the history of this country and the 0:19:17.836 --> 0:19:22.036 way we other folks, the only way something like this 0:19:22.116 --> 0:19:25.076 we would happen is if the majority of a lot 0:19:25.076 --> 0:19:27.996 of people, particularly people who vote, which are particularly middle 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:31.916 class people, can see themselves reflecting actually benefiting tagibly from 0:19:31.916 --> 0:19:34.356 said program. So for those reasons, I think it has 0:19:34.356 --> 0:19:37.756 to be, if not universal, as close universal as possible. 0:19:38.756 --> 0:19:40.396 I mean, you ended up that answer in a little 0:19:40.396 --> 0:19:42.796 bit different than the place that you started. I mean 0:19:42.876 --> 0:19:46.156 I when it comes to public schools, I see the 0:19:46.236 --> 0:19:48.356 argument very much that we actually have an incentive as 0:19:48.356 --> 0:19:51.036 a society to try to get the people who have 0:19:51.076 --> 0:19:54.396 the greatest resources to stay in the public schools, precisely 0:19:54.436 --> 0:19:56.276 so we will have a common sense of community and 0:19:56.276 --> 0:19:59.036 so that people with resources will invest to the extent 0:19:59.076 --> 0:20:03.596 possible in those public institutions, rather than diverting their resources 0:20:03.636 --> 0:20:07.316 and their efforts to private institutions. Here where you're talking 0:20:07.316 --> 0:20:12.076 about essentially check, you know, without a social service support 0:20:12.156 --> 0:20:15.796 network associated with it, it does seem to me that 0:20:15.916 --> 0:20:18.956 there's it's harder to make the case that making it 0:20:19.036 --> 0:20:21.716 universal will give everybody a sense of buying. I do 0:20:21.836 --> 0:20:25.156 understand that it might reduce the sense of indignity that 0:20:25.236 --> 0:20:27.436 some people might might suffer, and then we're just trading 0:20:27.436 --> 0:20:30.876 off in a very hard, tragic choice people's feelings of 0:20:30.916 --> 0:20:33.356 dignity against the question of how much money will have 0:20:33.436 --> 0:20:38.236 to will actually have to hand out. Suki, I wonder 0:20:38.476 --> 0:20:41.396 what are the biggest challenges that you've been facing in implementation? 0:20:42.036 --> 0:20:45.436 What are the problems that you've faced so far. I 0:20:45.476 --> 0:20:47.756 think one of the biggest challenges that we've faced has 0:20:47.796 --> 0:20:50.396 been Sama Tubs says this all the time, that change 0:20:50.396 --> 0:20:52.396 moves out the speed of trust. The same is definitely 0:20:52.436 --> 0:20:57.356 true for program implementation. So we've seen since we launched 0:20:57.356 --> 0:20:59.436 in the very beginning of fun the ways in which 0:20:59.476 --> 0:21:02.196 a lack of trust in our institutions has impacted our 0:21:02.196 --> 0:21:05.196 ability to implement. So I'll give a couple of examples. 0:21:05.596 --> 0:21:08.436 The first is that when we sent out our letters, 0:21:09.316 --> 0:21:12.716 as I mentioned earlier, our recruitment, we did address based recruitment, 0:21:13.036 --> 0:21:15.956 and we sent letters out to randomly selected addresses inviting 0:21:15.996 --> 0:21:18.636 them to participate. So when we sent the letters out, 0:21:18.676 --> 0:21:21.716 we originally only sent a thousand letters because we didn't 0:21:21.716 --> 0:21:24.276 want to fabricate false hope in a city where there's 0:21:24.316 --> 0:21:26.036 a lot of need and a lot of folks who 0:21:26.236 --> 0:21:28.636 need an extra five hundred dollars a month. But when 0:21:28.636 --> 0:21:31.396 we sent those those thousand letters out and we started 0:21:31.396 --> 0:21:34.116 monitoring the response rates, we realized that though we had 0:21:34.276 --> 0:21:37.076 enough responses to fill the treatment group, we didn't necessarily 0:21:37.116 --> 0:21:40.076