1 00:00:10,539 --> 00:00:14,450 Speaker 1: At some point, I'm in college, and I didn't quite 2 00:00:14,510 --> 00:00:17,110 Speaker 1: know what I wanted to be when I grew up. 3 00:00:18,230 --> 00:00:22,670 Speaker 1: And a legendary but young editor back then, Harry Evans, 4 00:00:23,270 --> 00:00:25,470 Speaker 1: had just moved to the Sunday Times of London, and 5 00:00:25,510 --> 00:00:28,490 Speaker 1: he was the Boy Wonder editor. And so he came 6 00:00:28,530 --> 00:00:31,350 Speaker 1: to my college, and he's talking about a new form 7 00:00:31,390 --> 00:00:36,629 Speaker 1: of journalism, investigative journalism done in narrative fashion. I got 8 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: my clips online. And I sent it off to him 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: by mail, a packet of these clips, and saying, could 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,140 Speaker 1: I get a job? A few months later, I get 11 00:00:47,180 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: a telegram. Now, I don't think I've ever gotten a 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: telegram in life. And I open it up and it says, 13 00:00:53,620 --> 00:00:57,460 Speaker 1: we'll hire on limited basis. And it was Harry Evans. 14 00:00:58,180 --> 00:01:00,540 Speaker 1: And I couldn't even figure out what he was talking about. 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,470 Speaker 1: I'd almost forgotten I'd sent off my clips. But in 16 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:07,429 Speaker 1: the end, I went off that summer. And I worked 17 00:01:07,670 --> 00:01:11,630 Speaker 1: in London for the Sunday Times. And not only was 18 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:16,530 Speaker 1: Harry the most vibrant editor you could imagine, but he'd 19 00:01:16,569 --> 00:01:18,330 Speaker 1: send me off to all sorts of places. I went 20 00:01:18,370 --> 00:01:23,870 Speaker 1: to northern Morocco to cover the Spanish-Sahara fights. I remember 21 00:01:23,950 --> 00:01:27,590 Speaker 1: being in Greece because there were people that were busting 22 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:33,500 Speaker 1: the sanctions to Rhodesia back then. And I had this mentor, pal, 23 00:01:33,860 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: named David Blundy, who... I went to Northern Ireland with. 24 00:01:38,250 --> 00:01:41,150 Speaker 1: And he was fearless. I remember one night we were 25 00:01:41,170 --> 00:01:44,330 Speaker 1: in the restaurant at the Europa Hotel in Belfast. He said, no, 26 00:01:44,350 --> 00:01:46,569 Speaker 1: we got to go cover the riots. I'm like, David. 27 00:01:47,370 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: And I learned a lesson because we went and covered 28 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:52,620 Speaker 1: the riots. When we got back, the hotel had been bombed. 29 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:57,700 Speaker 1: And so he was this person who influenced me on 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: getting out there, being a bit of a risk taker 31 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:02,250 Speaker 1: as a journalist. 32 00:02:04,690 --> 00:02:07,650 Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson is the author of eight biographies before Musk. 33 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:11,430 Speaker 2: He started back in 1986 with one called The Wise Men, 34 00:02:11,750 --> 00:02:15,090 Speaker 2: co-authored with journalist Evan Thomas about the architects of U.S. 35 00:02:15,130 --> 00:02:19,070 Speaker 2: foreign policy. He's written about lightning rods like Henry Kissinger, 36 00:02:19,669 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: technologists and scientists like Steve Jobs and Jennifer Doudna, historical 37 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: eminences like Leonardo da Vinci, Benjamin Franklin, and Albert Einstein. 38 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: But Isaacson's own roots are in the golden age of 39 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,250 Speaker 2: magazine journalism, a time where he rose to become editor 40 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,260 Speaker 2: of the magazine in a pre- and early internet era 41 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: when its influence was at its peak. He jumped to 42 00:02:42,660 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: the head of CNN right before 9-11, then the Aspen Institute, 43 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:49,149 Speaker 2: before returning to his hometown of New Orleans to teach 44 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:51,889 Speaker 2: and write. And if you've heard Isaacson talk about his 45 00:02:51,950 --> 00:02:56,310 Speaker 2: approach to telling stories, including ones like Musk's, he often 46 00:02:56,370 --> 00:02:59,010 Speaker 2: harkens back to growing up here and what he learned 47 00:02:59,050 --> 00:03:04,970 Speaker 2: as a kid in New Orleans. I'm Evan Ratliff, and 48 00:03:05,010 --> 00:03:09,010 Speaker 2: this is On Musk with Walter Isaacson. Episode 3, The 49 00:03:09,030 --> 00:03:34,850 Speaker 2: Big Easy and Beyond. consumed a lot of the interviews 50 00:03:34,870 --> 00:03:37,670 Speaker 2: that you've done since the book came out. And there's 51 00:03:37,690 --> 00:03:39,730 Speaker 2: a lot of talk of sort of the man in 52 00:03:39,750 --> 00:03:44,339 Speaker 2: the arena, and then this sort of Boswell character, the biographer. 53 00:03:44,820 --> 00:03:47,060 Speaker 2: And so I would like to treat you like the 54 00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:50,220 Speaker 2: man in the arena. So I want to start pretty 55 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 2: far back. Can you paint a picture for me what 56 00:03:54,140 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: it was like growing up here in New Orleans? 57 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,020 Speaker 1: Storytelling was essential in New Orleans. It was the only 58 00:04:00,060 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: way you could be popular, whether you were the lunch table, 59 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,950 Speaker 1: the dinner table, or on the playground. And so there 60 00:04:07,090 --> 00:04:12,430 Speaker 1: was inbred in all of us, especially the kids I 61 00:04:12,470 --> 00:04:16,010 Speaker 1: grew up with, the notion of seeing if you could 62 00:04:16,070 --> 00:04:19,890 Speaker 1: amuse people with good stories. You've heard the Walker Percy story, right? 63 00:04:19,910 --> 00:04:21,370 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I want to talk about that, actually, yeah. 64 00:04:21,390 --> 00:04:24,390 Speaker 1: I had a group of friends. We used to go 65 00:04:24,430 --> 00:04:28,789 Speaker 1: to the Boga Felaya, above Lake Pontchartrain, and we'd fish 66 00:04:28,970 --> 00:04:31,979 Speaker 1: and ski and try to capture turtles there. And we'd 67 00:04:32,020 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: all tell the stories about the rope swing or the 68 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,290 Speaker 1: time that this happened. And one of the people with 69 00:04:38,370 --> 00:04:42,110 Speaker 1: us was a young woman named Ann, whose father was 70 00:04:42,210 --> 00:04:46,890 Speaker 1: Walker Percy. And we never knew what Walker did. I'd say, Ann, 71 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:49,530 Speaker 1: he just always sits on the dock and drinks bourbon. 72 00:04:49,610 --> 00:04:51,970 Speaker 1: And she said, well, he's a writer. I didn't know 73 00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: you could be a writer. And so one day, I 74 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: was about 12 or 13, I read The Moviegoer, the 75 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: novel he had just published. And I said to him, man, 76 00:05:03,820 --> 00:05:06,020 Speaker 1: this book's got a lot of lessons in it. You're 77 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: trying to teach things. Explain it to me. 78 00:05:09,779 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: And this is the point where if you've heard Isaacson 79 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: on any number of podcasts or TV shows over the 80 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,260 Speaker 2: years or read interviews with him, you'll know that Walker 81 00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: Percy gave him a singular piece of advice. He repeats 82 00:05:21,370 --> 00:05:24,380 Speaker 2: it all the time. For heaven's sake, be a storyteller. 83 00:05:24,910 --> 00:05:27,790 Speaker 2: The world's got far too many preachers. It's advice that 84 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:29,250 Speaker 2: has shaped his thinking ever since. 85 00:05:30,690 --> 00:05:35,070 Speaker 1: And I learned that that's the way the Bible helps 86 00:05:35,170 --> 00:05:38,740 Speaker 1: move us along. We start with, you know, the greatest 87 00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: lead sentence ever, which is in the beginning. And we 88 00:05:41,940 --> 00:05:44,260 Speaker 1: learn lessons through stories. 89 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: But of course, he didn't follow Walker Percy into fiction writing. 90 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: Although he says he's got a novel in a drawer 91 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: that he plans to leave there. Instead, he started as 92 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 2: a beat reporter at the legendary New Orleans Daily. 93 00:05:56,180 --> 00:06:00,750 Speaker 1: I remember my first day on the job. At the Times-Picayune, 94 00:06:00,810 --> 00:06:04,210 Speaker 1: my first day as a reporter, high school kid, police reporter, 95 00:06:04,210 --> 00:06:08,890 Speaker 1: 5 a.m. to noon. There's a murder happening on Carrollton Avenue. 96 00:06:09,750 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: It's early in the morning. I get sent there and 97 00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: I talk to the police. I get all the facts 98 00:06:14,660 --> 00:06:16,940 Speaker 1: from the police spokesman. I had to go to the 99 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: pay phone on the corner to phone it in to 100 00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: the city editor. City editor says, did you talk to 101 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:27,380 Speaker 1: the family? I go, no, Billy. They just had somebody 102 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,260 Speaker 1: killed in the family. He said, go back and knock 103 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,370 Speaker 1: on the door and say you're from the Pickian and 104 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,210 Speaker 1: you want to talk to him. Take a deep breath, 105 00:06:34,470 --> 00:06:34,930 Speaker 1: walk back. 106 00:06:35,450 --> 00:06:36,089 Speaker 2: I was amazed. 107 00:06:36,470 --> 00:06:39,270 Speaker 1: They said, come on in. They made me coffee. They 108 00:06:39,310 --> 00:06:42,210 Speaker 1: brought out pictures. They talked for more than an hour 109 00:06:42,250 --> 00:06:46,430 Speaker 1: and a half. I learned two things. One is people 110 00:06:46,529 --> 00:06:50,050 Speaker 1: will talk if you're really there just to listen. You 111 00:06:50,089 --> 00:06:53,530 Speaker 1: don't have an agenda. You're not trying to mess with them. 112 00:06:54,089 --> 00:06:59,410 Speaker 1: And secondly, back then, you had this The ability to say, 113 00:06:59,630 --> 00:07:01,390 Speaker 1: I'm from the paper, let me talk. 114 00:07:01,950 --> 00:07:05,830 Speaker 2: Even after the Times-Picayune, though, Isaacson's path wasn't set. There 115 00:07:05,850 --> 00:07:08,770 Speaker 2: were other options, ones that probably wouldn't have led to 116 00:07:08,850 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 2: Elon Musk. 117 00:07:10,310 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: A year or two after college and university, I got 118 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: three job offers in one week. One of them was 119 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,810 Speaker 1: to go into politics, congressional race. I was going to 120 00:07:22,870 --> 00:07:25,370 Speaker 1: help manage it. It was a guy named Rick Tonry 121 00:07:25,490 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: who ends up in jail, so... That was not going 122 00:07:28,220 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: to be the right way to go. The second one, 123 00:07:31,580 --> 00:07:35,630 Speaker 1: I got a call from Cord Byer. He said, we 124 00:07:35,690 --> 00:07:39,150 Speaker 1: met when you were studying in England. What I didn't 125 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:42,090 Speaker 1: know is that he was CIA station chief for Europe, 126 00:07:42,170 --> 00:07:45,050 Speaker 1: and he used to meet students and young Americans there 127 00:07:45,190 --> 00:07:47,330 Speaker 1: and keep track of them. And I was offered a 128 00:07:47,370 --> 00:07:51,790 Speaker 1: job with the CIA. But he said, we wouldn't, of course, 129 00:07:51,990 --> 00:07:54,510 Speaker 1: want you to be undercover. We'd want you to be 130 00:07:54,550 --> 00:07:57,210 Speaker 1: in Langley as an analyst. And I'm thinking, wait a minute. 131 00:07:57,390 --> 00:07:59,110 Speaker 1: If I'm going to join the CIA, do I want 132 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:02,330 Speaker 1: to just be an analyst at headquarters? And the third 133 00:08:02,390 --> 00:08:05,470 Speaker 1: job offer I got was because I had covered the 134 00:08:05,530 --> 00:08:08,820 Speaker 1: mayor's race in New Orleans that year and 12 candidates 135 00:08:08,860 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: had run. It was a total zoo. But I went 136 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,540 Speaker 1: around to every ward leader and every assessor at every 137 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,140 Speaker 1: bar in New Orleans and said, who's going to win 138 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: your precinct? And I toted it up and I did 139 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,090 Speaker 1: a chart. Here's how it's going to turn out. Well, 140 00:08:24,390 --> 00:08:28,110 Speaker 1: it turns out that exact way. The 12 finish in 141 00:08:28,130 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: the order I said within a half a percentage point 142 00:08:31,020 --> 00:08:34,620 Speaker 1: of what we said. Oh, wow. And the paper is 143 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: touting it. Our city hall reporter got it right. And 144 00:08:39,580 --> 00:08:41,990 Speaker 1: it was just when a guy from Time magazine, I 145 00:08:42,030 --> 00:08:43,590 Speaker 1: don't think they knew what to do with him in 146 00:08:44,030 --> 00:08:46,210 Speaker 1: the days before they fired people. So they sent him 147 00:08:46,250 --> 00:08:49,929 Speaker 1: around the country to find new journalists. And he offered 148 00:08:49,970 --> 00:08:52,810 Speaker 1: me a job. And my mother said, take the job 149 00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:56,290 Speaker 1: at Time Magazine. And she was right, because this is, 150 00:08:56,710 --> 00:09:01,580 Speaker 1: I guess, the late 70s. And that's when news magazines 151 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:06,179 Speaker 1: were general interest news magazines. And for me, it was 152 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: a godsend, because I had always been somebody who was 153 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,780 Speaker 1: interested in a wide variety of things. And one week, 154 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: I might be in charge of the medicine sections. Next 155 00:09:19,460 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: week would be music, then foreign affairs, then business. And 156 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: in some ways, it was like Huck Finn on the raft. 157 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,210 Speaker 1: You'd get off the raft, you'd have a wonderful adventure 158 00:09:28,250 --> 00:09:30,650 Speaker 1: for a week, and then get back on the raft, 159 00:09:30,710 --> 00:09:33,850 Speaker 1: and who knew where it was going to lead? And 160 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:37,809 Speaker 1: so it meant I was never the world's greatest expert 161 00:09:38,010 --> 00:09:44,260 Speaker 1: on European foreign policy or on astrophysics, but I knew 162 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,100 Speaker 1: a little bit about everything and could see how there 163 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: were patterns that ripples across the universe. We can talk 164 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,030 Speaker 1: about all the downsides there, which is we were gatekeepers. 165 00:09:55,130 --> 00:09:58,050 Speaker 1: Walter Cronkite could say, that's the way it is, and 166 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:02,060 Speaker 1: Time magazine could. But there were no citizen journalists. There 167 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:08,429 Speaker 1: were nobody challenging the mainstream narrative. But let me just 168 00:10:08,490 --> 00:10:13,530 Speaker 1: say selfishly, if you were a 20-something-year-old and you got 169 00:10:13,570 --> 00:10:16,790 Speaker 1: to ride on the boat with the mainstream narrative people, 170 00:10:17,490 --> 00:10:19,730 Speaker 1: it taught you a lot. And we didn't even have 171 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:25,430 Speaker 1: bylines at Time Magazine then. The stories were unsigned. And yet, 172 00:10:26,090 --> 00:10:29,490 Speaker 1: when I called up Henry Kissinger's office and said, I'm 173 00:10:29,530 --> 00:10:32,170 Speaker 1: at Time Magazine and I want to write about you, 174 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: partly it was the ego of Henry Kissinger, but partly 175 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: it was the good fortune I had to have an 176 00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:42,220 Speaker 1: institution behind me. 177 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,150 Speaker 2: One of the reviews of your Kissinger book talked about 178 00:10:46,210 --> 00:10:50,110 Speaker 2: how you had gotten this access to him and that 179 00:10:50,130 --> 00:10:52,370 Speaker 2: he was probably going to regret it, or he probably 180 00:10:52,429 --> 00:10:56,790 Speaker 2: did now regret it. And that made me wonder, how 181 00:10:56,830 --> 00:11:00,350 Speaker 2: did you start to formulate an idea of what you 182 00:11:00,550 --> 00:11:04,339 Speaker 2: owe that person when you spend time with them? 183 00:11:04,660 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: Back then in the 1980s, there were two types of journalists. 184 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: One were the access journalists, sort of the Hussites and 185 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,470 Speaker 1: James Restons, who could always talk to people in power. 186 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: And then there were the Woodward and Bernstein investigative journalist types. 187 00:11:21,540 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: And I always tried to see if you could combine both. 188 00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:28,380 Speaker 1: And so in the case of the Kissinger book, I 189 00:11:28,420 --> 00:11:32,179 Speaker 1: think it's an honest story. And in the end, Time 190 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:36,750 Speaker 1: magazine was having a big celebration of everybody had been 191 00:11:36,809 --> 00:11:39,589 Speaker 1: on the cover. And I was wondering if Kissinger would 192 00:11:39,630 --> 00:11:41,490 Speaker 1: come back because he wasn't speaking to me. He was 193 00:11:41,510 --> 00:11:44,530 Speaker 1: so angry about the book. And he called up, he said, 194 00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:48,070 Speaker 1: Will Walter... Even the Thirty Years' War had to end 195 00:11:48,130 --> 00:11:50,429 Speaker 1: at some point. I will come to the party for 196 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:53,610 Speaker 1: Time magazine. I said, that's great. And he said, but 197 00:11:53,630 --> 00:11:56,809 Speaker 1: you know my wife, Nancy, she's partial to the Hundred Years' War. 198 00:11:56,850 --> 00:11:58,950 Speaker 1: We're going to have to work on her. So I 199 00:11:58,990 --> 00:12:01,850 Speaker 1: learned from that that if you tried to be honest 200 00:12:01,929 --> 00:12:04,850 Speaker 1: and straight and tried to get it right, you know, 201 00:12:04,890 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: you weren't slamming them just for the sake of slamming them, 202 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,580 Speaker 1: but you were making it clear that the secret bombing 203 00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:15,330 Speaker 1: of Cambodia was not a great idea. In the end, 204 00:12:16,700 --> 00:12:19,939 Speaker 1: People would respect you. After I dealt with Kissinger, it's like, 205 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,820 Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to go and do somebody who's 206 00:12:21,860 --> 00:12:23,710 Speaker 1: been dead for 200 years so I don't have to 207 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:24,750 Speaker 1: worry what they think. 208 00:12:26,110 --> 00:12:30,110 Speaker 2: I think a thing that I was pondering reading about Musk, 209 00:12:30,170 --> 00:12:34,650 Speaker 2: and there's a lot about Musk's management philosophy, but you 210 00:12:34,690 --> 00:12:36,929 Speaker 2: were also a manager. Eventually, you were the editor of 211 00:12:36,950 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: Time magazine and then, of course, CNN. And it made 212 00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:43,820 Speaker 2: me wonder, what was your management style when you were 213 00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:44,620 Speaker 2: running a newsroom? 214 00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:49,060 Speaker 1: I had a very collegial management style, and that worked 215 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,090 Speaker 1: well at Time magazine. There were about 400 people who 216 00:12:53,110 --> 00:12:55,550 Speaker 1: were the main core of the magazine, and I knew 217 00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:57,950 Speaker 1: them all, you know, been to their house. They had 218 00:12:58,330 --> 00:13:00,330 Speaker 1: come out to my house. We used to have parties 219 00:13:00,370 --> 00:13:03,150 Speaker 1: at my house. And it was easy because it was 220 00:13:03,170 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: the 90s, and the magazine was doing well. 221 00:13:06,300 --> 00:13:08,540 Speaker 2: Even in, say, there was a big event, and it 222 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,820 Speaker 2: was stress, and you had to deliver a late close. 223 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,780 Speaker 1: Especially intense coverage. One of the things that Walker Percy 224 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,300 Speaker 1: taught us is that people are never happier than when 225 00:13:17,340 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: a hurricane's coming. In other words, you know what you're 226 00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: supposed to do. You don't have that little angst and 227 00:13:21,980 --> 00:13:27,100 Speaker 1: free-floating anxiety. So when big things happened, impeachments of Bill 228 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:32,330 Speaker 1: Clinton or major disasters around the world, we all rallied together. 229 00:13:32,370 --> 00:13:35,010 Speaker 1: We'd stay up all night. We'd put out the magazine. 230 00:13:36,050 --> 00:13:39,910 Speaker 1: When I talked to Steve Jobs, he was a rougher manager. 231 00:13:39,950 --> 00:13:42,790 Speaker 1: He was the opposite. He was not collegial. He said, 232 00:13:42,830 --> 00:13:44,770 Speaker 1: you had a lot of empathy and you thought you 233 00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:47,750 Speaker 1: were kind, but mainly it was because you wanted other 234 00:13:47,770 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: people to like you. And he said about himself, I 235 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: don't have that luxury. I'm just a middle class kid 236 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: trying to build a company. And when people do things 237 00:13:56,300 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: that suck, I've got to tell them it sucks. And 238 00:13:58,179 --> 00:14:01,780 Speaker 1: then I've got to fire them. And if I'm too collegial, 239 00:14:02,020 --> 00:14:04,940 Speaker 1: we'll never get things done. Did you look back at 240 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: your own time? 241 00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:08,570 Speaker 2: Did you say, well, maybe you were right about if 242 00:14:08,650 --> 00:14:09,590 Speaker 2: when I ran CNN, I should have been. 243 00:14:09,610 --> 00:14:11,510 Speaker 1: So then I look back and said, maybe you were right. 244 00:14:11,620 --> 00:14:15,100 Speaker 1: Because soon after I got there, 9-11 happens and we've 245 00:14:15,140 --> 00:14:17,140 Speaker 1: got the best team in the world. But then the 246 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: war winds down. Fox starts coming up. MSNBC starts coming up. 247 00:14:23,970 --> 00:14:28,310 Speaker 1: And I'm being too nice. I care that Lou Dobbs 248 00:14:28,390 --> 00:14:31,210 Speaker 1: and Greta Van Susteren like me, that Larry King thinks 249 00:14:31,270 --> 00:14:35,180 Speaker 1: I'm a nice person. And I needed to disrupt CNN 250 00:14:35,230 --> 00:14:37,250 Speaker 1: at that point. It needed to be brought into a 251 00:14:37,290 --> 00:14:41,030 Speaker 1: digital age to compete with MSNBC and Fox. And I 252 00:14:41,090 --> 00:14:44,730 Speaker 1: was terrible at that. I was not a tough enough, 253 00:14:45,210 --> 00:14:50,100 Speaker 1: a disruptive enough manager. And I didn't have it in 254 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,580 Speaker 1: my heart to want to be. And so after my 255 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,460 Speaker 1: contract was up, I left and went to the Aspen Institute, 256 00:14:56,540 --> 00:15:01,980 Speaker 1: which is dedicated to finding consensus. And it's the Oracle 257 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: at Delphi, know thyself. And what I learned about myself 258 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:08,980 Speaker 1: was I'm not going to be a disruptor like Steve 259 00:15:09,020 --> 00:15:10,900 Speaker 1: Jobs or Elon Musk. I'm not going to be that 260 00:15:10,940 --> 00:15:11,940 Speaker 1: tough of a manager. 261 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: You've talked about how the heyday of time and there 262 00:15:14,980 --> 00:15:17,890 Speaker 2: was a heyday of CNN. And a lot of people 263 00:15:17,930 --> 00:15:20,100 Speaker 2: have sort of written that down and you kind of 264 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,980 Speaker 2: ejected from that. And as you watched it subsequently, did 265 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,340 Speaker 2: you feel like you had escaped to another planet and 266 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,420 Speaker 2: then the one that you left blew up? 267 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:34,290 Speaker 1: I try to wake up every morning and be grateful. Boy, 268 00:15:34,330 --> 00:15:40,710 Speaker 1: my timing has been good. You know, I got out 269 00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:43,500 Speaker 1: of Time magazine just in time. I mean, after I left, 270 00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:48,580 Speaker 1: news magazines get decimated. Likewise. CNN, you know, whether or 271 00:15:48,630 --> 00:15:52,100 Speaker 1: not it's still doing good journalism, it's certainly been decimated 272 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: as a business model. So, yeah, I sometimes feel like 273 00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, one of Elon Musk's 274 00:15:59,950 --> 00:16:02,630 Speaker 1: favorite books, I feel like I'm just making it off 275 00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:04,830 Speaker 1: of each planet just in the nick of time. 276 00:16:08,570 --> 00:16:10,930 Speaker 2: Stay with us after the break to learn how Isaacson 277 00:16:10,990 --> 00:16:14,979 Speaker 2: managed to capture Musk's manic lifetime across 600 pages. and 278 00:16:15,020 --> 00:16:18,220 Speaker 2: get to the truth about Musk's emerald mine inheritance and 279 00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: who really founded Tesla. I want to talk about that 280 00:16:35,420 --> 00:16:38,460 Speaker 2: preacher versus storyteller distinction a little bit. First of all, 281 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:39,980 Speaker 2: because I also grew up in the South. I grew 282 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: up in Georgia. And oftentimes, the best preachers are, in fact, storytellers. 283 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,950 Speaker 2: So what did it mean to you, the distinction? What's 284 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,020 Speaker 2: the divide there? 285 00:16:51,610 --> 00:16:53,770 Speaker 1: As I learned from reading the movie Goer when I 286 00:16:53,810 --> 00:16:56,650 Speaker 1: first read it at age 12, any story has a 287 00:16:56,710 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: moral behind it, but the moral should be behind it, 288 00:17:00,170 --> 00:17:03,250 Speaker 1: not in front of it. I'm leading with what I'm 289 00:17:03,290 --> 00:17:06,109 Speaker 1: bringing to the party because everybody on talk radio and 290 00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:09,590 Speaker 1: cable TV and every blog and podcast, they have opinions 291 00:17:09,650 --> 00:17:12,150 Speaker 1: about Musk. But I got the story of what happened 292 00:17:12,170 --> 00:17:14,649 Speaker 1: that Friday night or that story of what's in the 293 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:17,470 Speaker 1: hospital in Austin with his two girlfriends or any of 294 00:17:17,530 --> 00:17:20,580 Speaker 1: these stories. So that's what I'm bringing to the party. 295 00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:26,660 Speaker 1: I try to give you the story as clear, honest, straight, 296 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: and unvarnished. And I have a card that's on my 297 00:17:31,859 --> 00:17:35,740 Speaker 1: wall near my computer. And I look at it whenever 298 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: I get stuck trying to convey, well, is Musk rough 299 00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:44,699 Speaker 1: on people? Or has he got some political feelings in 300 00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: a certain way. And the card simply says, let me 301 00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: tell you a story. And so I stop. And I 302 00:17:51,940 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: don't try to preach or I don't try to pontificate. 303 00:17:55,340 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: I say, what's the best story in my notebook that 304 00:17:58,859 --> 00:17:59,859 Speaker 1: illustrates this? 305 00:18:01,380 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: I want to shift gears slightly and find out a 306 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,750 Speaker 2: little bit about the writing process. Because this book, first 307 00:18:08,050 --> 00:18:10,250 Speaker 2: of all, is there stuff. 308 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: That went to the cutting room floor that you still 309 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,420 Speaker 2: think about or wish you had included? 310 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,950 Speaker 1: First of all, nobody has ever accused this book of 311 00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:26,050 Speaker 1: being too short. People always begin with, it's 600 pages. 312 00:18:26,609 --> 00:18:27,609 Speaker 2: People love doorstop. 313 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:32,389 Speaker 1: Yeah, the word doorstop. When I was young and Evan Thomas, 314 00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:34,850 Speaker 1: my friend, and I were doing The Wise Men about 315 00:18:35,250 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: the six friends in Cold War foreign policy, our editor, 316 00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:44,020 Speaker 1: looked at a whole section about the World Bank and said, 317 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,380 Speaker 1: cut it out. Nobody is going to care. And so 318 00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: we did. And then there was one review that said, 319 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,020 Speaker 1: there's not enough in it about the creation of the 320 00:18:53,060 --> 00:18:56,859 Speaker 1: World Bank. And I mentioned it to our editor and 321 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,150 Speaker 1: she said, yes, I think we're going to use that 322 00:18:59,210 --> 00:19:02,590 Speaker 1: as a blurb on the paperback to say not enough 323 00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:04,830 Speaker 1: about the creation of the World Bank. That'll be a 324 00:19:04,890 --> 00:19:08,389 Speaker 1: selling feature of the book. You have to learn, you know, 325 00:19:08,490 --> 00:19:12,689 Speaker 1: something's are important, but maybe not that interesting. 326 00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: I love getting in the weeds on process myself, but 327 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: what's your literal organizational system? Do you have a paper-based system? 328 00:19:19,060 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: Do you have a, use a software? How do you 329 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: keep all of this stuff? 330 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,659 Speaker 1: Early on, I was a fast adopter of computer technology. 331 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,500 Speaker 1: So I was looking for all sorts of complex ways 332 00:19:29,540 --> 00:19:32,780 Speaker 1: to do note cards and organize them and stuff. And 333 00:19:33,260 --> 00:19:38,850 Speaker 1: I discovered that the best organizational structure is chronological. whether 334 00:19:38,869 --> 00:19:42,210 Speaker 1: you're writing about Leonardo da Vinci or you're writing about 335 00:19:42,310 --> 00:19:46,230 Speaker 1: Elon Musk, you put all your notes in chronological order. 336 00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:49,929 Speaker 1: And the simplest way to organize it, I discovered, was 337 00:19:49,970 --> 00:19:52,889 Speaker 1: just a big word file. You know, if I... It's 338 00:19:52,910 --> 00:19:58,490 Speaker 1: a very big word file. Yeah, maybe 800,000 words by 339 00:19:58,540 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: the end. And I would just put things in, in order, 340 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,100 Speaker 1: little key words that I could search, like asshole, you know, 341 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:10,290 Speaker 1: with an asterisk and so... And then... when you write 342 00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:13,770 Speaker 1: the book, you try to keep it as chronological as 343 00:20:13,790 --> 00:20:16,830 Speaker 1: you can. But you can't make it totally chronological, especially 344 00:20:16,869 --> 00:20:21,550 Speaker 1: with a Musk. If one morning he's obsessing about buying Twitter, 345 00:20:21,910 --> 00:20:24,130 Speaker 1: but then he has to worry about a valve leak 346 00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:27,010 Speaker 1: on a Raptor engine happening in Texas, and then he's 347 00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:30,290 Speaker 1: on a meeting about full self-driving, you don't want the 348 00:20:30,330 --> 00:20:33,869 Speaker 1: book to just be one damn thing after another. You decide, 349 00:20:33,890 --> 00:20:37,609 Speaker 1: all right, how am I going to cluster these so 350 00:20:38,210 --> 00:20:44,020 Speaker 1: that they have a certain coherence to them. In the 351 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: Musk book, you'll notice something different from my other books. 352 00:20:47,580 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: The chapters are very short and they're very fast paced 353 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: because I want to show how he moves, bing, bing, bing, 354 00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: really fast through things, not a whole lot of pausing 355 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: and reflecting. And that's consciously to make you feel like 356 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,740 Speaker 1: you're going through this book the way he goes through life. 357 00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:13,050 Speaker 2: What does it look like when Walter Isaacson sits down 358 00:21:13,230 --> 00:21:16,369 Speaker 2: to write? How do you get to a 600-page or 359 00:21:16,530 --> 00:21:20,229 Speaker 2: could have been 1,200-page biography? What does the daily process 360 00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:20,590 Speaker 2: look like? 361 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:24,550 Speaker 1: I work at night. I tend to like to start 362 00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:28,210 Speaker 1: writing at 8 p.m. I'm happily married to somebody who's 363 00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:31,350 Speaker 1: a morning person, so we each have our quiet time 364 00:21:31,790 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: while the other's not awake. And I'll work till 2, 365 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:40,909 Speaker 1: 3 in the morning. I now use a trick I 366 00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:45,649 Speaker 1: learned from Leonardo da Vinci, which is I'll sketch something out, 367 00:21:45,790 --> 00:21:48,620 Speaker 1: and then I'll add another layer of brushstrokes. Then I'll 368 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: add another layer of polish. Then I'll sort of refine 369 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: it a bit. So if I'm going to write about, say, 370 00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:03,020 Speaker 1: the launch of XAI, the artificial intelligence company, I'll have 371 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,490 Speaker 1: rough chronological notes of sitting there in the backyard with them. 372 00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,530 Speaker 1: Here's what happens when he calls Sam Altman to Twitter headquarters. 373 00:22:10,910 --> 00:22:14,110 Speaker 1: Here's what happens when they have a showdown over how 374 00:22:14,430 --> 00:22:18,990 Speaker 1: open AI became closed. And it'll all be chronological. And 375 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: then I'll do a rough draft in which I weave 376 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: it into a story, making a point not to use 377 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: transition sentences. This is something I learned at Time Magazine, 378 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: which is transition sentences lock you into a certain order 379 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,429 Speaker 1: of paragraphs. Whereas if it got an integrity to it, 380 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: you don't need the transition sentence, but it also allows 381 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: you to move the paragraphs around. And so I write 382 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,889 Speaker 1: in a rough way without transitions, then I reorder the paragraphs. 383 00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:53,129 Speaker 1: And then as if I were Leonardo, although I'm not 384 00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:57,230 Speaker 1: as good as Leonardo, I put another layer of refinement, 385 00:22:57,350 --> 00:23:01,780 Speaker 1: of finishing, of gloss onto it. And then read it 386 00:23:02,060 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: out loud, print it out on paper, because it reads 387 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: different on paper than on the screen, read it out 388 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,850 Speaker 1: loud on paper, let my wife read it, and then 389 00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:11,290 Speaker 1: do one more round of polishing. 390 00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:14,830 Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson interviewed about 100 different people for the book. 391 00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:19,650 Speaker 2: Musk's friends, family and colleagues, and a smattering of detractors 392 00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: or frenemies. It was a massive undertaking, and it's those 393 00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 2: interviews that inform everything until 2021, when Isaacson set out 394 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,060 Speaker 2: to be Musk's ever-present shadow. 395 00:23:29,930 --> 00:23:33,660 Speaker 1: I did the first half of the book first, wrote 396 00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: it all the way through, getting me up to the 397 00:23:36,980 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: point where I'm riding alongside Musk. No, I'm not there 398 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,109 Speaker 1: in 27, 2018. Right. Yeah, when he's smoking dope on 399 00:23:45,130 --> 00:23:48,350 Speaker 1: the Joe Rogan show. I'm not in the studio. I'm 400 00:23:48,410 --> 00:23:53,429 Speaker 1: happily ensconced in Jennifer Doudna's biotech lab or something. And 401 00:23:53,530 --> 00:23:58,460 Speaker 1: then I had the stuff that was unfolding. And me 402 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: being there as it's happening. And I kept that in 403 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: this big chronological set of notes and waited to start 404 00:24:07,740 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: writing it until pretty much I had done most of 405 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:16,740 Speaker 1: the reporting. I was putting the finishing touches, you know, 406 00:24:16,859 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: six weeks before it got published in September. 407 00:24:21,270 --> 00:24:24,310 Speaker 2: When do you sort of know when you're done? I mean, 408 00:24:24,690 --> 00:24:26,930 Speaker 2: like in the middle of your story, he bought Twitter. 409 00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:30,820 Speaker 2: So how far do you need to see that through 410 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,139 Speaker 2: before you feel like, okay, it's done? 411 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,979 Speaker 1: I felt I needed to make sure that you understood 412 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: Musk fully. So that whatever happens five years from now, 413 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,980 Speaker 1: this book still explains who he is. Because even though 414 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: there are multiple Musk personalities, it's not like he changes 415 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,030 Speaker 1: in essence. But there were moments as the book was finishing— 416 00:24:56,790 --> 00:24:58,970 Speaker 1: I'd get up in the morning and just turn on 417 00:24:58,990 --> 00:25:02,060 Speaker 1: my phone. Is it still there? Was it like the 418 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,940 Speaker 1: rocket ship? Did it blow up? So yeah, I held 419 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: my breath a couple of times, but I began to 420 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,379 Speaker 1: see that it had come to a good logical conclusion. 421 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,300 Speaker 2: There are some stories about Musk that have been repeated 422 00:25:16,460 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 2: so many times, often without supporting details. that they become 423 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 2: kind of slogans for his critics or his supporters. Musk 424 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,290 Speaker 2: is the scion of an emerald mine. Or no, Musk 425 00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:32,230 Speaker 2: came from nothing. Musk founded Tesla, or he just bought 426 00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:34,950 Speaker 2: it from some other guys who did. Part of Isaacson's 427 00:25:35,010 --> 00:25:37,669 Speaker 2: task was winding his way back through these layers of 428 00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:42,650 Speaker 2: Musk lore. There are people who have extremely strong views 429 00:25:42,970 --> 00:25:46,910 Speaker 2: of Musk, and they're often based on stories that get 430 00:25:46,990 --> 00:25:49,750 Speaker 2: told over and over again. Did you start the book 431 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:53,690 Speaker 2: Knowing those stories and wanting to delve into them, did 432 00:25:53,730 --> 00:25:57,220 Speaker 2: you keep tabs on the perceptions that people have and 433 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: you were trying to play against those or you were 434 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 2: trying to block out that type of. 435 00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:04,060 Speaker 1: Oh, I knew all the disputes. Whether or not he 436 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: deserved to be called a co-founder of Tesla. 437 00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: That's a big one. 438 00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:10,540 Speaker 1: Whether or not his father had an emerald mind. And 439 00:26:10,660 --> 00:26:14,669 Speaker 1: you know what? There's not an exact one-sentence answer, but 440 00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:18,109 Speaker 1: there's a maybe two-paragraph answer on the emerald mind and 441 00:26:18,510 --> 00:26:21,420 Speaker 1: the fact that his father didn't have an ownership stake, 442 00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:24,100 Speaker 1: but did for a while get a supply of emeralds 443 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,149 Speaker 1: from a mine that was in Zambia, not in South Africa. 444 00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:30,310 Speaker 1: And then it went bankrupt. So he had money for 445 00:26:30,350 --> 00:26:33,369 Speaker 1: a while, but then the business collapses. That's not as 446 00:26:33,470 --> 00:26:36,290 Speaker 1: easy or as fun of a hot take of He's 447 00:26:36,350 --> 00:26:39,190 Speaker 1: an Emerald Mine heir, or he didn't own an Emerald Mine. 448 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:41,890 Speaker 2: But at the same time, he did invest in Musk's 449 00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:43,609 Speaker 2: first company and his mom gave him some money. Like 450 00:26:43,630 --> 00:26:44,369 Speaker 2: there was a kind of. 451 00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:47,750 Speaker 1: There was a very, I can't remember, but it was 452 00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:50,010 Speaker 1: like $ 10, 000. They did support him. 453 00:26:50,170 --> 00:26:52,370 Speaker 2: Like the part of the story that's like, he had 454 00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:54,010 Speaker 2: a little leg up because his family could give him 455 00:26:54,030 --> 00:26:56,370 Speaker 2: some money to start a company. There's a nugget there. 456 00:26:57,010 --> 00:27:00,030 Speaker 1: A nugget. And I explained both the starting of that company, 457 00:27:00,050 --> 00:27:03,930 Speaker 1: but also basically running away to Canada when he's 17 458 00:27:03,930 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: and He arrives with virtually no money. He has a 459 00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:12,070 Speaker 1: couple of thousand dollars of traveler's check, which he loses 460 00:27:12,190 --> 00:27:16,510 Speaker 1: on a bus. He ends up with student loans. So 461 00:27:16,650 --> 00:27:19,810 Speaker 1: it's not as if he gets there and has, like 462 00:27:19,850 --> 00:27:23,230 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin, only three coins in his pocket, but he 463 00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: also doesn't have pockets full of emeralds, and he's not 464 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:33,500 Speaker 1: a trust fund kid. So that just shows that this knee-jerk, 465 00:27:34,030 --> 00:27:37,129 Speaker 1: all or nothing, that he had huge sums of money 466 00:27:37,210 --> 00:27:39,870 Speaker 1: in his pockets when he came, or he was totally... No, 467 00:27:40,290 --> 00:27:44,690 Speaker 1: life is a bit more complex. And I try to 468 00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:49,070 Speaker 1: show just the truth, the exact number he had, and 469 00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:51,150 Speaker 1: what that did and what it didn't do. 470 00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:55,189 Speaker 2: The Tesla origin story is, that's something that I had 471 00:27:55,230 --> 00:27:59,300 Speaker 2: heard about, knew very little about. And it's very messy. 472 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,270 Speaker 2: It takes a long time to go through actually how 473 00:28:03,330 --> 00:28:06,090 Speaker 2: they ended at the point of who's a founder and 474 00:28:06,109 --> 00:28:07,270 Speaker 2: who's not a founder of Tesla. 475 00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:10,689 Speaker 1: If something's a big success, all of a sudden everybody remembers, hey, 476 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:13,300 Speaker 1: that was my idea, or hey, they stole that idea 477 00:28:13,380 --> 00:28:17,419 Speaker 1: from me. And so the story is not a one-sentence answer, 478 00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: but it's a pretty fast-moving, I hope, chapter. Martin Eberhardt 479 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,219 Speaker 1: and Mark Tarpenning, having tried to start a company, they 480 00:28:25,260 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: had no money and no employees, but they had the 481 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: name Tesla that they had registered. J.B. Straubel, who was 482 00:28:30,820 --> 00:28:34,660 Speaker 1: also creating a battery company and trying to do AC propulsion. 483 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: And then Musk, who puts in the money, puts all 484 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: these groups together, becomes the chairman and funds it. So 485 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,590 Speaker 1: in the end, who gets to be called the founder? Well, boy, 486 00:28:47,630 --> 00:28:49,870 Speaker 1: they fight over it. I mean, it's just so brutal. 487 00:28:50,270 --> 00:28:52,690 Speaker 1: They hate each other. I mean, if you mention Mark 488 00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:56,550 Speaker 1: Tarpenning's name, he gets mad and vice versa. And it 489 00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:59,710 Speaker 1: went to court. And in the end, the court said, 490 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,380 Speaker 1: Here are five people who equally have the rights to 491 00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: call themselves co-founders of Tesla. Once again, I got no 492 00:29:07,940 --> 00:29:09,980 Speaker 1: dog in this hunt. I tell you the story and 493 00:29:10,020 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: I try to do it step by step. Who does what? 494 00:29:14,980 --> 00:29:19,070 Speaker 1: And you demystify things, you debunk certain myths, and you 495 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,940 Speaker 1: also don't fall into the vortex of of all these controversies. 496 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,620 Speaker 2: I love the detail that they actually did have a 497 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,270 Speaker 2: non-disparagement agreement as part of the court case, but they 498 00:29:29,290 --> 00:29:29,630 Speaker 2: just violated it. 499 00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:31,650 Speaker 1: And they couldn't help themselves. I mean, yes, right. I mean, 500 00:29:31,670 --> 00:29:34,290 Speaker 1: these are guys, even when they're talking to me, they say, 501 00:29:34,330 --> 00:29:37,370 Speaker 1: I've signed a non-disparagement, but he's an asshole. He's lying, 502 00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:38,470 Speaker 1: you know? 503 00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: And one of the guys even says, I don't understand, 504 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: he's the richest man in the world. 505 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:43,900 Speaker 1: Martin Eberhardt. 506 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: Martin Eberhardt says he's the richest man in the world. 507 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,900 Speaker 2: Why does he have to keep talking about it? He 508 00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: has everything. 509 00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:50,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Why do you do this? We keep asking Musk, 510 00:29:51,260 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: you know, why are you so mad about Martin Eberhardt? 511 00:29:56,830 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: Why does it eat away at you so much? And 512 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: he would say, this guy tried to take the credit. 513 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,140 Speaker 1: And in the end, you don't understand Musk if you 514 00:30:07,180 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: don't understand why Musk is so obsessed by these things. 515 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,590 Speaker 2: After the break, Isaacson recounts how he maintains access, even 516 00:30:16,670 --> 00:30:19,530 Speaker 2: as he's divulging embarrassing details his subjects don't want the 517 00:30:19,570 --> 00:30:33,770 Speaker 2: world to know. Stay with us. It's one thing to 518 00:30:33,810 --> 00:30:36,110 Speaker 2: be able to tell the story, but to tell it, 519 00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:38,470 Speaker 2: you have to have it. You have to not only 520 00:30:38,550 --> 00:30:40,670 Speaker 2: show up in the right places at the right times, 521 00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:43,750 Speaker 2: lingering long enough that people might even forget why you're there, 522 00:30:44,130 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: but you also need an eye for the details and 523 00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: an ear for the dialogue that combine to create the story. 524 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,380 Speaker 2: Something Isaacson learned decades ago, working at Time magazine. 525 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,070 Speaker 1: The very first story I wrote as a political reporter 526 00:30:58,090 --> 00:31:02,850 Speaker 1: for Time involved the Ronald Reagan campaign. And I was 527 00:31:02,950 --> 00:31:07,510 Speaker 1: covering it. And I had gotten to know one of 528 00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:10,870 Speaker 1: his advisors on the airplane trips, a guy named Mike Deaver. 529 00:31:11,550 --> 00:31:16,030 Speaker 1: And one day, Reagan is giving his stump speech, and 530 00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:18,110 Speaker 1: he's spouting off all these things that are just untrue, 531 00:31:18,550 --> 00:31:23,270 Speaker 1: that trees cause pollution, that, you know, typical Reagan things, 532 00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:29,590 Speaker 1: welfare queen stories or whatever. And I look at Mike Deaver, 533 00:31:29,610 --> 00:31:31,670 Speaker 1: who's standing next to me, and he's shaking his head. 534 00:31:32,050 --> 00:31:34,770 Speaker 1: And he says, I don't know, where did he get 535 00:31:34,830 --> 00:31:39,150 Speaker 1: those facts? You know, we always try to correct him. He, 536 00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:41,209 Speaker 1: of course, thought he was just talking to me, but 537 00:31:41,270 --> 00:31:44,290 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. So the end of the week, story 538 00:31:44,330 --> 00:31:48,060 Speaker 1: comes out, and it leads with Mike Deaver saying to me, 539 00:31:48,890 --> 00:31:51,700 Speaker 1: he's making all this up. It's so frustrating. Where did 540 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,300 Speaker 1: he get those facts? Well, I thought that was going 541 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: to be the end of all my access. stunningly, I 542 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: get on the campaign plane for the next trip, and 543 00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: I get called to the front of the plane. And 544 00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:09,700 Speaker 1: Deaver sits me next to Ronald Reagan. Suddenly, they knew 545 00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:12,979 Speaker 1: who I was. They paid attention. It was as if 546 00:32:13,580 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: by swatting him, I mean, I just told the truth. 547 00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, this is a guy to be 548 00:32:20,060 --> 00:32:24,090 Speaker 1: reckoned with. And it was another of those lessons that 549 00:32:24,330 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: if you have access to They respect you more, not less, 550 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,370 Speaker 1: if you use it to try to tell the truth, 551 00:32:31,550 --> 00:32:32,990 Speaker 1: even in ways they may not like. 552 00:32:34,010 --> 00:32:36,550 Speaker 2: With Musk, that access meant logging miles in the ground, 553 00:32:37,010 --> 00:32:40,950 Speaker 2: on the factory floor, and many more in the air. Granted, 554 00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: it was on Musk's private jet, not exactly the 1980s-style 555 00:32:44,540 --> 00:32:48,140 Speaker 2: reporting Isaacson came up on. I'm very good at sleeping 556 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: on airplanes. I learned that when I covered The 1980 557 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,510 Speaker 2: presidential campaign. I was really young, just coming out of 558 00:32:57,050 --> 00:33:00,590 Speaker 2: the Times-Picayune in New Orleans and joined Time Magazine. And 559 00:33:00,630 --> 00:33:03,430 Speaker 2: they put me on the Ted Kennedy campaign, which was 560 00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:07,750 Speaker 2: a relentless campaign in a small charter plane. And I 561 00:33:07,770 --> 00:33:11,220 Speaker 2: learned to fall asleep instantly because it was the only time. 562 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: You get sleep. But when I was traveling with Musk, 563 00:33:14,060 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: you'd get on the plane. And of course, you couldn't 564 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:20,380 Speaker 1: sleep because it was the one time when he would 565 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: just be there. free associating. And so I never tried 566 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: to bother him when he was thinking. I'd just be 567 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: there alert during the entire plane ride, three, four hours. 568 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,850 Speaker 1: And occasionally I'd just say one or two words like Cybertruck. 569 00:33:40,590 --> 00:33:44,210 Speaker 1: And he'd talk about his autistic son, Saxon, saying the 570 00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:47,230 Speaker 1: future should look like the future. And so how he 571 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:50,510 Speaker 1: had changed the design. But you just prompt him with 572 00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:54,310 Speaker 1: a word or two and let him free associate. So 573 00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:59,790 Speaker 1: I didn't do any truly formal interviews where you're just 574 00:33:59,970 --> 00:34:05,270 Speaker 1: sitting across from somebody with a notebook. I would just 575 00:34:05,390 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: let him talk as we walked along an assembly line 576 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: or let him talk during the airplane ride. And sometimes 577 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: he'd have 15 minutes between meetings. They knew to schedule 578 00:34:17,660 --> 00:34:21,620 Speaker 1: that where he'd be in an intense meeting say, about 579 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,850 Speaker 1: Optimus the robot. And then in the same conference room, 580 00:34:25,210 --> 00:34:28,989 Speaker 1: they might do another meeting about battery cells and what 581 00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:31,989 Speaker 1: the anode and cathode should be made of. But there'd 582 00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:35,370 Speaker 1: always be 10 or 15 minutes between them. And at first, 583 00:34:35,410 --> 00:34:37,870 Speaker 1: I thought maybe I should step out because he used 584 00:34:37,910 --> 00:34:42,500 Speaker 1: that private time to do emails. Sometimes I'd sort of 585 00:34:42,580 --> 00:34:45,339 Speaker 1: fire up Twitter to see if he was tweeting while 586 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,819 Speaker 1: I was sitting in the room with him. Sometimes he'd 587 00:34:47,860 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: play video games. But then... He would look up at 588 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 1: some point, and I would do something we in New 589 00:34:54,980 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: Orleans always do at dinner. So I'd say, tell me 590 00:34:58,820 --> 00:35:03,170 Speaker 1: a story. So I'd say, tell me the story of 591 00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:08,810 Speaker 1: the 2018 surge at the Fremont factory. Tell me the 592 00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:12,509 Speaker 1: story of when you went on Joe Rogan. Tell me 593 00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:16,420 Speaker 1: the story of when you did that tweet about calling 594 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,009 Speaker 1: a British cave diver a pedophile. And it wouldn't be 595 00:35:20,070 --> 00:35:24,130 Speaker 1: a pointed question. It was always prefaced with, tell me 596 00:35:24,190 --> 00:35:27,490 Speaker 1: the story. And sometimes he'd be with people who'd been 597 00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: working with him for a long time. So in some ways, 598 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: my role was not to interview him, but to extract 599 00:35:35,940 --> 00:35:39,860 Speaker 1: stories and bide my time. And the great luxury of 600 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:45,580 Speaker 1: having two years and almost indefinite amounts of time with 601 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,859 Speaker 1: him is... You could go back to it later and say, 602 00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: tell me again about that story of where you're looking 603 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,739 Speaker 1: at the toy at your desk. The difficult thing with 604 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,810 Speaker 1: Musk is that sometimes he'd recount things, but, you know, 605 00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:05,630 Speaker 1: his memory wasn't perfect. That's true of all of us, 606 00:36:05,850 --> 00:36:09,689 Speaker 1: but as everything with Musk, it's more so with him. 607 00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:14,069 Speaker 1: He could embellish or whatever. So I often would have 608 00:36:14,110 --> 00:36:16,049 Speaker 1: to go to five or six people. I'd have to 609 00:36:16,090 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: go to Marc Ginkosa. And say, tell me the story 610 00:36:18,940 --> 00:36:22,530 Speaker 1: about when he fired everybody at Starlink, put you in charge, 611 00:36:23,219 --> 00:36:26,030 Speaker 1: and you redesigned the Starlink satellite to make it simpler. 612 00:36:26,489 --> 00:36:28,930 Speaker 1: And I'd have Musk tell the story. And I'd have 613 00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:34,350 Speaker 1: Musk's assistant, who was there, tell the story. And sometimes 614 00:36:34,390 --> 00:36:37,469 Speaker 1: you'd get Kimball to tell the story. And so in 615 00:36:37,530 --> 00:36:41,570 Speaker 1: the book, I'm very careful to say, hear all the sources. 616 00:36:42,110 --> 00:36:45,710 Speaker 1: And I warned Musk. I said, you know, you're going 617 00:36:45,730 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 1: to read the book. And the stories are not going 618 00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:50,219 Speaker 1: to be exactly the way you remembered them because other 619 00:36:50,260 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: people remember them differently. And he said, I know that's 620 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: the case. I know that the stories may not be 621 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 1: the way I remembered them. And even nowadays, I talked 622 00:37:01,739 --> 00:37:04,049 Speaker 1: to Kimball Musk after the book came out. He said, 623 00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:06,350 Speaker 1: you know, I think the book is really good. It's 624 00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:08,910 Speaker 1: not always the way I remember it. But then I 625 00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:11,810 Speaker 1: looked at your sources and I realized you were talking 626 00:37:11,850 --> 00:37:13,089 Speaker 1: to a lot of people. Hmm. 627 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: You said that you came off the trail in the 628 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,060 Speaker 2: summer of 2023, and I know you've described how you 629 00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: did get called back by him for some subsequent reporting. 630 00:37:22,020 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 2: But before that, what you thought was your last day, 631 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,100 Speaker 2: was that a day that you had designated where you said, 632 00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:31,620 Speaker 2: I'm going to close my notebook at the end of 633 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 2: this day, and that's it? 634 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:40,609 Speaker 1: Early in 2023, I realized I had enough material. that 635 00:37:40,650 --> 00:37:43,430 Speaker 1: you could understand Musk. I had enough stories. So whatever 636 00:37:43,469 --> 00:37:46,410 Speaker 1: he did in the future, you'd get them. And I 637 00:37:46,530 --> 00:37:49,610 Speaker 1: looked for what should be the culmination of the book. 638 00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:52,450 Speaker 1: And I didn't really want it to be Twitter and 639 00:37:52,530 --> 00:37:58,299 Speaker 1: it puttering along and also messing up moderation because I 640 00:37:58,340 --> 00:38:01,020 Speaker 1: think that's not a big deal for him. The big 641 00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: deal was space travel. And I knew that he was 642 00:38:05,060 --> 00:38:09,510 Speaker 1: going to do the launch of Starship. in Boca Chica. 643 00:38:09,650 --> 00:38:12,150 Speaker 1: And I'd been there for the surges over the course 644 00:38:12,190 --> 00:38:15,219 Speaker 1: of 2022 where they stacked it and unstacked it and 645 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,900 Speaker 1: tested its 33 Raptor engines and fixed all the valves. 646 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: And I said, I think that will be the culminating 647 00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: scene in the book. 648 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 2: And this takes us back to that opening scene from 649 00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:31,710 Speaker 2: our first episode where the Starship rocket makes liftoff but 650 00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:33,710 Speaker 2: then goes off course and they have to blow it 651 00:38:33,790 --> 00:38:34,510 Speaker 2: up over the ocean. 652 00:38:35,270 --> 00:38:37,730 Speaker 1: And I remember talking to my editor and to my 653 00:38:37,830 --> 00:38:40,629 Speaker 1: wife a few hours later, and they had watched this 654 00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:44,009 Speaker 1: on television. And they said, oh my God, what does 655 00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:46,630 Speaker 1: this do to the end of this book? I said, 656 00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:50,670 Speaker 1: it's a perfect metaphor. We know Starship's going to launch again. 657 00:38:51,010 --> 00:38:53,489 Speaker 1: We know at some point it's going to get to orbit. 658 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,820 Speaker 1: But I wanted to have a scene that was somewhat 659 00:38:58,980 --> 00:39:04,180 Speaker 1: poignant of him being determined, of him being visionary, of 660 00:39:04,219 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: him having taken too many risks and blown up a 661 00:39:07,219 --> 00:39:11,140 Speaker 1: rocket that And him being with people who had worked 662 00:39:11,180 --> 00:39:14,100 Speaker 1: with him for 20 years, but also kind of being alone, 663 00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:17,700 Speaker 1: no matter who was hugging him, his girlfriend, his mother, 664 00:39:17,780 --> 00:39:22,060 Speaker 1: his son, and him just staring at that little red 665 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,250 Speaker 1: dot of Mars. And I know it sounds like I'm 666 00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:28,170 Speaker 1: embellishing a bit, but it was rising in the sky. 667 00:39:28,190 --> 00:39:32,180 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, all right. there's a lot of smoldering rubble, 668 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,980 Speaker 1: but if anybody's going to get us to Mars, it's 669 00:39:35,020 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 1: this guy. So it's not as if I absolutely respect 670 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 1: everything about Musk, but I do respect the fact that 671 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,050 Speaker 1: he's worth writing about because he's having this enormous impact. 672 00:39:46,530 --> 00:39:51,020 Speaker 2: And you're very comfortable holding that tension in in your head? 673 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: Those of us who are biographers have to be able 674 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: to create characters that we hold many things in our 675 00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:03,150 Speaker 1: minds about them. So while I'm very comfortable holding that 676 00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:05,669 Speaker 1: tension in my head, I'm very uncomfortable with the fact 677 00:40:06,250 --> 00:40:10,569 Speaker 1: that as a society, we've lost the ability to hold 678 00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:15,330 Speaker 1: that in our heads. We either canonize or demonize somebody 679 00:40:15,390 --> 00:40:21,469 Speaker 1: in 140 characters. And We used to be able to understand, 680 00:40:21,489 --> 00:40:25,020 Speaker 1: to go back to Shakespeare, that even the best are 681 00:40:25,060 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: molded out of their flaws. And that's true of our 682 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: historical figures, and it's true of Elon Musk. 683 00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:38,709 Speaker 2: There is also a question, though, embedded in the we 684 00:40:38,750 --> 00:40:42,190 Speaker 2: there that goes back to this sort of Time Newsweek 685 00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:46,630 Speaker 2: Walter Cronkite. Is it possible that that approach, the dismissive approach, 686 00:40:47,250 --> 00:40:50,460 Speaker 2: that always existed... Their voice just wasn't included in the 687 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,890 Speaker 2: we that was sort of balancing out positive and negative thoughts. 688 00:40:56,750 --> 00:41:00,689 Speaker 1: I think you're right. There's often a mainstream consensus that 689 00:41:00,770 --> 00:41:04,370 Speaker 1: leaves a lot of people out of forming that consensus. 690 00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:10,620 Speaker 1: And so often the reputations of complex people are not 691 00:41:10,780 --> 00:41:15,259 Speaker 1: just about them, but they're a mirror that's reflecting ourselves. 692 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: And it tells us a lot about ourselves at any 693 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,100 Speaker 1: given time. And as you say, different people will have 694 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,859 Speaker 1: different views of it. This is why I can write 695 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,259 Speaker 1: a book about Ben Franklin, even though maybe 100 books 696 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,700 Speaker 1: have been written about Ben Franklin, because every person in 697 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: every period probably does well to try to paint their 698 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,739 Speaker 1: own view of what he was like. And I think 699 00:41:42,940 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: history is painted in many layers. I think I give 700 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: you unvarnished what I saw, the good, the bad, and 701 00:41:51,660 --> 00:41:55,500 Speaker 1: the ugly. But I know that that's not the final word. 702 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,900 Speaker 1: I know that a century from now, people will figure 703 00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:04,380 Speaker 1: out the historic significance of an Elon Musk. They'll probably 704 00:42:04,420 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: be using some of the stories of my book to 705 00:42:06,260 --> 00:42:09,620 Speaker 1: prove whatever case for or against them they want to use. 706 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: But each of us gets to write a subsequent draft 707 00:42:16,590 --> 00:42:17,190 Speaker 1: of our time. 708 00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:19,710 Speaker 2: Or a sentient AI will just be writing it like 709 00:42:19,730 --> 00:42:21,850 Speaker 2: they're writing the history of the dodo bird or some 710 00:42:21,890 --> 00:42:22,589 Speaker 2: extinct good creature. 711 00:42:22,610 --> 00:42:25,570 Speaker 1: It will be interesting to know what a generative large 712 00:42:25,650 --> 00:42:28,710 Speaker 1: language model will do when they can read every biography 713 00:42:28,750 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: of Musk and you say, was Musk a good guy 714 00:42:32,410 --> 00:42:36,739 Speaker 1: or a bad guy? I think that simple question will 715 00:42:36,820 --> 00:42:38,980 Speaker 1: flummox even the most sophisticated AI. 716 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,060 Speaker 2: Coming up on the final episode of On Musk with 717 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson, we weigh up Musk's legacy. What should we 718 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 2: take away from Isaacson on Musk? We ask Isaacson to 719 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 2: answer his critics, try to suss out how this portrait 720 00:42:55,340 --> 00:42:58,770 Speaker 2: will age, and surface some stories from the book everyone 721 00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:59,590 Speaker 2: seems to have ignored. 722 00:43:00,310 --> 00:43:04,069 Speaker 1: They kick him out. And for 20 years, it's eating 723 00:43:04,110 --> 00:43:07,510 Speaker 1: away at him. Which is why, of course, he wants 724 00:43:07,530 --> 00:43:09,930 Speaker 1: to buy Twitter. And in the middle of the night, 725 00:43:09,989 --> 00:43:13,020 Speaker 1: Musk calls hotel security and makes them open the safe 726 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,910 Speaker 1: so he can start tweeting out weird things. That's who 727 00:43:16,010 --> 00:43:18,390 Speaker 1: Musk is. And that's why I just didn't believe him, 728 00:43:18,410 --> 00:43:20,810 Speaker 1: and I'm not even sure he believed himself. People who 729 00:43:20,890 --> 00:43:23,410 Speaker 1: say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should 730 00:43:23,469 --> 00:43:26,069 Speaker 1: be are always using anecdotes from my book to show 731 00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:29,060 Speaker 1: why we should be tough on Musk. I would love 732 00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:31,900 Speaker 1: it if he would lie low for like a year, 733 00:43:31,940 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: but he ain't gonna do that. 734 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 2: On Musk with Walter Isaacson is a production of Kaleidoscope 735 00:43:37,460 --> 00:43:40,259 Speaker 2: and iHeart. This show is based on the writing and 736 00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:43,750 Speaker 2: reporting of Walter Isaacson. Special thanks to Bob Pittman, Conal Byrne, 737 00:43:43,790 --> 00:44:14,350 Speaker 2: Will Pearson, Nikki Etor, Carrie Lieberman, Nathan Otoski, Allie Gavin, 738 00:44:14,670 --> 00:44:16,910 Speaker 2: and the folks at WWNO who let us use their 739 00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:19,529 Speaker 2: beautiful studio in New Orleans. If you like stories about 740 00:44:19,550 --> 00:44:22,069 Speaker 2: writers and their process, check out my other show, The 741 00:44:22,110 --> 00:44:24,630 Speaker 2: Long Form Podcast. If you want a story about a 742 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,050 Speaker 2: different South African programmer who became one of the world's 743 00:44:27,070 --> 00:44:29,839 Speaker 2: biggest criminals, you can check out my book, The Mastermind. 744 00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:34,580 Speaker 2: And for more shows from Kaleidoscope, be sure to visit kaleidoscope.nyc. 745 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:36,020 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.