1 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: At some point, I'm in college and I didn't quite 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: know what I wanted to be when I grew up, 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: and a legendary but young editor. Back then, Harry Evans 4 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: had just moved to the Sunday Times of London and 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: he was the boy Wonder editor, and so he came 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 1: to my college and he's talking about a new form 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: of journalism, investigative journalism done in narrative fashion. I got 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: my clips and I sent it off to him by mail, 9 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: packet of these clips, and saying could I get a job. 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: A few months later, I get a telegram. Now I 11 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: don't think I'd ever gotten a telegram in life, and 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: I open it up and says, we'll hire on limited basis. 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: And it was Harry Evans, and I couldn't even figure 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: out what he was talking about. I'd almost forgotten i'd 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: sent off my clips. But in the end I went 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: off that summer and I worked in London for the 17 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: Sunday Times. And not only was Harry the most vibrant 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: editor you could imagine, but he'd send me off to 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: all sorts of places. I went to northern Morocco to 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: cover the Spanish Sahara fights. I remember being in Greece 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: because there were people that were busting the sanctions to 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Rhodesia back then. And I had this mentor pal named 23 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: David Blundy who I went to Northern Ireland with and 24 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: he was fearless. I remember one night we were in 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: the restaurant at the europe Hotel in Belfas said no, 26 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: we got to go cover the riots. I'm like David, 27 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: and I learned a lesson because we went and covered 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: the riots. When we got back the hotel had been bombed. 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: And so he was this person who influenced me on 30 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: getting out there being a bit of a risk taker 31 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: as a journalist. 32 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: Walter Isakson is the author of eight biographies before Musk. 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 2: He started back in nineteen eighty six with one called 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: The Wise Men, co authored with journalist Evan Thomas, about 35 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: the architects of US foreign policy. He's written about lightning 36 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: rods like Henry Kissinger, technologists and scientists like Steve Jobs 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: and Jennifer DOWDNA, historical eminences like Leonardo da Vinci, Benjamin 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: Franklin and Albert Einstein. But Isaacson's own roots are in 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: the golden age of magazine journalism, at time where he 40 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: rose to become editor of the magazine in a pre 41 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: and early Internet era when its influence was at its peak. 42 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: He jumped to the head of CNN right before nine 43 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: to eleven, then the Aspen Institute before returning to his 44 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 2: hometown of New Orleans to teach and write. And if 45 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: you've heard Isaacson talk about his approach to telling stories, 46 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: including ones like Musks, he often harkens back to growing 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: up here and what he learned as a kid in 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: New Orleans. I'm Evan Ratliffe and this is on Musk 49 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: with Walter Isaacson, Episode three, The Big Easy and Beyond. 50 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: Where are you Ordering from? Or where are you arning from? 51 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: All leaned almost anything but Paul Boy Sandwiches anywhere near 52 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: here that'd be fine or whatever. 53 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: Totally, I've consumed a lot of the interviews that you've 54 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: done since the book came out, and there's a lot 55 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: of talk of sort of the man in the Arena 56 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: and then the sort of Boswell character the biographer, And 57 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: so I would like to treat you like the man 58 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: in the Arena. So I want to start pretty far back. 59 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: Can you paint a picture for me what it was 60 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: like growing up here. 61 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: In New Orleans. Storytelling was essential in New Orleans. It 62 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: was the only where you could be popular, whether you 63 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: were the lunch table, the dinner table, or on the playground. 64 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: And so there was in bread in all of us, 65 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: especially the kids. I grew up with the notion of 66 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: seeing if you could amuse people with good stories. You've 67 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: heard the Walker Percy. Yeah, right, yes, I want to 68 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: talk about that. Actually yet, I had a group of friends. 69 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: We used to go to the Boga Falaya above Link Pontitraine, 70 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: and we'd fish and ski and try to capture turtles, 71 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: and we'd all tell the stories about the rope swing 72 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: or the time that this happened. And one of the 73 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: people with us was a young woman named Anne whose 74 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: father was Walker Percy. And we never knew what Walker did. 75 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: I'd say, Anne, he just always sits on the dock 76 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: and drinks bourbon. And she said, well, he's a writer. 77 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know you could be a writer. And so 78 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: one day I was about twelve or thirteen, I read 79 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: the Moviegoer No he had just published, and I said 80 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: to him, Man, this book's got a lot of lessons 81 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: in it. You're trying to teach things. Explain it to me. 82 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 2: And this is the point where if you've heard Isaacson 83 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: on any number of podcasts or TV shows over the years, 84 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: or read interviews with him, you'll know that Walker Percy 85 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: gave him a singular piece of advice. He repeats it 86 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 2: all the time. For Heaven's sake, be a storyteller. The 87 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: world's got far too many preachers. It's advice that has 88 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 2: shaped his thinking ever since. 89 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: And I learned that that's the way the Bible helps 90 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: move us along. We start with you know, the greatest 91 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: lead sentence ever, which is in the beginning, and we 92 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: learn lessons through stories. 93 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: But of course he didn't follow Walker Percy into fiction writing, 94 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 2: although he says he's got a novel in a drawer 95 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: that he plans to leave there. Instead, he started as 96 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: a beat reporter at the legendary New Orleans Daily. 97 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: Remember my first day on the job at the I's picky. 98 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: My first day is a reporter, high school kid, police reporter. 99 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: Five am to noon. There's a murder happening on Carrollton Avenue. 100 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: It's early in the morning. I get sent there and 101 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: talk to the police. I get all the facts from 102 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: the police spokesman had to go to the payphone on 103 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: the quarter to phone it into the city editor. City 104 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: editor says, did you talk to the family. They go, no, Billy, 105 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: they just had somebody killed in their family. They said, 106 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: go back and knock on the door and say you're 107 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: from the Picky and you want to talk to them. 108 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: Take a deep breath, walk back. I was amazed. They 109 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 1: said come on in. They made me coffee, they brought 110 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: out pictures. They talked for more than an hour and 111 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: a half. I learned two things. One is people will 112 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: talk if you're really there just to listen. You don't 113 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: have an agenda, you're not trying to mess with them. 114 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: And secondly, back then you had this ability to say 115 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: I'm from the paper, let me talk. 116 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: Even after the Times pickyun though Isaacson's path wasn't set, 117 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: there were other options, ones that probably wouldn't have led 118 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: to Elon Musk. 119 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 1: A year or two after college and university, I got 120 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: three job offers in one week. One of them was 121 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: to go into politics, congressional race. I was going to 122 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: help manage it. It was a guy named Rick Tonri 123 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: who ends up in jail, so that was not going 124 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,559 Speaker 1: to be the right way to go. The second one 125 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: I got a call from Cordbyer. He said, we met 126 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: when you were studying in England. What I didn't know 127 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: is that he was CIA station chief for Europe and 128 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: he used to meet students and young Americans there and 129 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: keep track of them. And I was offered a job 130 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: with the CIA. HM But so we wouldn't, of course 131 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: want you to be undercover. We'd want you to be 132 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: in Langley as an analyst. And I'm thinking, wait a minute, 133 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: if I'm going to join the CIA, do I want 134 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: to just be an analy at headquarters? And the third 135 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: job offer I got was because I had covered the 136 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: mayor's race in New Orleans that year and twelve candidates 137 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: had run. It was a total zoo. But I went 138 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: around to every ward leader, in every assessor at every 139 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: bar in New Orleans and said, who's going to win 140 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: your precinct? And I toted it up and I did 141 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: a chart, Here's how it's going to turn out. Well, 142 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: it turns out that exact way. The twelve finish in 143 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: the order I said, within a half a percentage point 144 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: of what we said, and the paper is touting it. 145 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: Our City Hall reporter got it right. And it was 146 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: just when a guy from Time Magazine. I don't think 147 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: they knew what to do with him in the days 148 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: before they fired people, so they sent him around the 149 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: country to find new journalists. And he offered me a job, 150 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: and my mother said take the job at Time magazine. 151 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: And she was right, because this is I guess, the 152 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: late seventies. That's when news magazines were general interest news magazines. 153 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: And for me it was a godsend because I had 154 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: always been somebody who was interested in a wide variety 155 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: of things. And one week I might be in charge 156 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: of the medicine section. Next week can be music, then 157 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: foreign affairs, then business, And in some ways it was 158 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: like Huck Finn on the raft. You'd get off the raft, 159 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: you'd have a wonderful adventure for a week, and they 160 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: get back on the raft, and who knew where it 161 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: was going to lead? And so it meant I was 162 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: never the world's greatest expert on European foreign policy or 163 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: on astrophysics, but I knew a little bit about everything 164 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: and could see how there were patterns that rippled across 165 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: the universe. We can talk about all the downsides there, 166 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: which is we were gatekeepers. Walter Kronkit could say that's 167 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: the way it is, and Time Magazine could. There were 168 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: no citizen journalists. There were nobody challenging the mainstream narrative. 169 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: But let me just say selfishly, if you were a 170 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: twenty something year old and you got to ride on 171 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: the boat with the mainstream narrative people, it taught you 172 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: a lot. We didn't even have bylines at Time Magazine. 173 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: Then the stories were unsigned. And yet when I called 174 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: up Henry Kissinger's office and said, I'm at Time Magazine 175 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: and I want to write about you. Partly it was 176 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: the ego of Henry Kissinger, but partly it was the 177 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: good fortune I had to have an institution behind me. 178 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 2: One of the reviews of your Kissinger book talked about 179 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: how you had gotten this access to him and that 180 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: he was probably going to regret it, or he probably 181 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: did now regret it. And that made me wonder, how 182 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: did you start to formulate an idea of what you 183 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: owe that person when you spend time with them. 184 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: Back then, in the nineteen eighties, there were two types 185 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: of journalists, one with the access journalists, sort of the 186 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: Husites and James Restent, who could always talk to people 187 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: in power. And then there were the Woodward and Bernstein 188 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: investigative journalist types, and I always tried to see if 189 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: you could combine both, and so in the case of 190 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: the Kissinger book, I think it's an honest story. And 191 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 1: in the end, Time Magazine was having a big celebration 192 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: of everybody had been on the cover, and I was 193 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: wondering if Kissinger would come back, because he wasn't speaking 194 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: to me. He was so angry about the book. And 195 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: he called up. He said, vel Volta, even the thirty 196 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: years War had to end. At some point, I will 197 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: come to the party for Time magazine. I said that's great, 198 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: and he said, but you know my wife, Nancy, she's 199 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: partial to the one hundred years War. We're going to 200 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: have to work on her. So I learned from that 201 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: that if you tried to be honest and straight and 202 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: tried to get it right, you know, you warnt slamming 203 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: them just for the sake of slamming them, But you're 204 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: making it clear that the secret bombing of Cambodia was 205 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: not a great idea. In the end, people would respect you. 206 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: After I dealt with Kissingers, like all right, I'm going 207 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: to go and do somebody who's been dead for two 208 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: hundred years, so I don't have to worry what they think. 209 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: I think a thing that I was pondering reading about Musk, 210 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: and there's a lot about Musk's management philosophy, But you 211 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: were also a manager. Eventually you were the editor of 212 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: Time Magazine and then of course CNN, and it made 213 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: me wonder, what was your management style when you were 214 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: running a newsroom. 215 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: I had a very collegial management style and that worked 216 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: well at Time Magazine. They're about four hundred people who 217 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: are the main core of the magazine, and I knew 218 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: them all. You know, been to their how they'd come 219 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: out to my house for your step laraties at my house. 220 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: And it was easy because it was the nineties and 221 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: the magazine was doing well. 222 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 2: Even in say there was a big event and it 223 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: was stress and you had to deliver its contents coverage. 224 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: One of the things that Walker Percy taught us is 225 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: that people are never happier than when the hurricane's coming. 226 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: In other words, you know what you're supposed to do. 227 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 1: You don't have that little ankst and free floating anxiety. 228 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: So when big things happened, impeachments of Bill Clinton or 229 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: major disasters around the world. We all rallied together, we'd 230 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: stay up all night, we'd put out the magazine. When 231 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: I talked to Steve Jobs, he was a rougher manager. 232 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: He was the opposite. He was not collegial. He said, 233 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: you had a lot of empathy, and you thought you 234 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: were kind, but mainly it was because you wanted other 235 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: people to like you. And he said about himself, I 236 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: don't have that luxury. I'm just a middle class kid 237 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: trying to build a company. And when people do things 238 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: that sock, I've got to tell them it socks, and 239 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: then I've got to fire them. And if I'm too collegial, 240 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: we'll never get things done. That makes you mask back. 241 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: At your own time, did you say, well, maybe you 242 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: were right about if when I ran the. 243 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: Baggins, And maybe you were right because soon after I 244 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: got there, nine to eleven happens, and we've got the 245 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: best team in the world. But then the war winds down. 246 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: Fox starts coming up, MSNBC starts coming up, and I'm 247 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: being too nice. I care that lou Dobbs and Grete 248 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: Ancestorn liked me, that Larry King thinks I'm a nice person, 249 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: and I needed to disrupt CNN at that point it 250 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: needed to be brought into a digital age to compete 251 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: with MSNBC and Fox. And I was terrible at that. 252 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: I was not a tough enough, disruptive enough manager, and 253 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: I didn't have it in my heart to want to be. 254 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: And so after my contract was up, I left and 255 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: went to the Asphon Institute, which is dedicated to finding consensus, 256 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: and it's the oracle at Delphi know thyself, and what 257 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: I learned about myself was I'm not gonna be a 258 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: disruptor like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk. I'm not gonna 259 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: be that tough of a manager. 260 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: You've talked about how the heyday of Time, and there 261 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: was a heyday of CNN, and a lot of people 262 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: have sort of written that down and you kind of 263 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: ejected from that And as you watched it subsequently, did 264 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: you feel like you had escaped to another planet? 265 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: And then the one that you left blew up. I 266 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: try to wake up every morning and be grateful. Boy, 267 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: my timing has been good. You know. I got out 268 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: of Time magazine just in time. I mean, after I left, 269 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: news magazines get decimated, likewise CNN. You know whether or 270 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: not it's still doing good journalism. It's certainly been decimated 271 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: as a business model. So yeah, I sometimes feel like 272 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, one of Elon Musk books, 273 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: feel like I'm just making it off of each planet 274 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: just in the nick of time. 275 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: Stay with us after the break to learn how Isaacson 276 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: managed to capture Musk's manic lifetime across six hundred pages 277 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: and get to the truth about Musk's emerald mind, inheritance 278 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: and who really founded Tesla. I want to talk about 279 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: that preacher versus storyteller distinction a little bit, first of all, 280 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: because I also grew up in the South I Group 281 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: in Georgia, and oftentimes the best preachers are in fact storytellers. 282 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: So what did it mean to you the distinction? What's 283 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: the divide there? 284 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: As I learned from reading The Moviegoer when I first 285 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: read it at age twelve, any story has a moral 286 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: behind it, but the moral should be behind it, not 287 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: in front of it. I'm leading with what I'm bringing 288 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: to the party because everybody on talk radio and cable 289 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: TV and every blog and podcast they have opinions about Mosque, 290 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: But I got the story of what happened that Friday night, 291 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: or that story of what's in the hospital in Austin 292 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: with his two girlfriend, or any of these stories. So 293 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: that's what I'm bringing to the party. I try to 294 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: give you the story as clear, honest, straight and un varnished. 295 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: And I have a card that's on my wall near 296 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: my computer, and I look at it whenever I get 297 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: stuck trying to convey, well, is Mosque rough on people? 298 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: Or is he got some political feelings in a certain way? 299 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 1: And the card simply says, let me tell you a story. 300 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: And so I stop, and I don't try to preach 301 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: or I don't try to pontificate. I say, what's the 302 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: best story in my notebook that illustrates this? Mm hmm. 303 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: I want to shift gears slightly and find out a 304 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 2: little bit about the writing process because this book. First, 305 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: first of all, is there stuff that went to the 306 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: cutting room floor that you still think about or wish 307 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 2: you had included? 308 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: First of all, nobody has ever accused this book of 309 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: being too short. People always begin with hits six hundred page. 310 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: People love doorstop. 311 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the word doorstop. When I was young and 312 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: Evan Thomas, my friend, and I were doing the Wise 313 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: Men about the Six Friends in Cold War Foreign policy. 314 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: Our editor looked at a whole section about the World 315 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: Bank and said, cut it out. Nobody is going to care, 316 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: and so we did. And then there was one review 317 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: that said there's not enough in it about the creation 318 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: of the World Bank, and I mentioned it to our 319 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: Editornecy said, yes, I think we're going to use that 320 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: as a blurb on a paperback to say not enough 321 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: about the creation of the World Back. That'll be a 322 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: selling feature of the book. You have to learn, you know, 323 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: some things are important but maybe not that interesting. 324 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: I love getting in the weeds on process myself, But 325 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 2: what's your literal organizational system? Do you have a paper 326 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: based system, do you have a use a software? How 327 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: do you keep all of this stuff? 328 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: Early on, I was a fast adopter of computer technology, 329 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: so I was looking for all sorts of complex ways 330 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: to do note cards and organize them and stuff. And 331 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: I discovered that the best organizational structure is chronological. Whether 332 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: you're writing about Leonardo da Vinci or you're writing about 333 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: Elon Mosk, you put all your notes in chronological order. 334 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: And the simplest way to organize it, I discovered was 335 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: just a big word file. You know, if I it 336 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: would be word file. Yeah, maybe eight hundred thousand words 337 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,719 Speaker 1: by the end, and I would just put things in 338 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: in order, little key words that I could search, like 339 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: asshole you with the asterisk. And then when you write 340 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: the book, you try to keep it as chronological as 341 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: you can, but you can't make it totally chronological, especially 342 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: with a mosque. If one morning he's obsessing about buying Twitter, 343 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: but then he has to worry about a valve leak 344 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: on a raptor engine happening in Texas, and then he's 345 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: on a meeting about full self driving. You don't want 346 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: the book to just be one damn thing after another. 347 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: You decide, all right, how am I going to cluster 348 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: these so that they have a certain coherence to them. 349 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: In the Muss Book, you'll notice something different from my 350 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: other books. The chapters are very short, and they're very 351 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: fast paced, because I want to show how he moves 352 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: bing bing bing really fast through things, not a whole 353 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: lot of pausing and reflecting. And that's consciously to make 354 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: you feel like you're going through this book the way 355 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: he goes through life. 356 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: What does it look like when Walter Isaacson sits down 357 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: to write. How do you get to a six hundred 358 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 2: page or could have been twelve hundred page biography? What 359 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 2: does the daily process look like? 360 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: I work at night. I tend to like to start 361 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: writing at eight pm. Happily married to somebody who's a 362 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: morning person, so we each have our quiet time while 363 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: the other's not awake, and I'll work till two three 364 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: in the morning. I now use a trick I learned 365 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: from Leonardo da Vinci, which is I'll sketch something out, 366 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: and then I'll add another layer of brushstrokes. Then I'll 367 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: add another layer of polish. Then I'll sort of refine 368 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: it a bit. So if I'm going to write about, 369 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: say the launch of Xai, the artificial intelligence company, I'll 370 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: have rough chronological notes of sitting there in the backyard 371 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: with him. Here's what happens when he calls Sam Altman 372 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: to Twitter headquarters, Here's what happens when they have a 373 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: showdown over how open Ai became closed. And it'll all 374 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: be chronological, and then I'll do a rough draft in 375 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: which I weave it into a story, making a point 376 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 1: not to use a transition sentences. This is something I 377 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: learned at Time magazine, which is transition sentences lock you 378 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: into a certain order of paragraphs, whereas if it got 379 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: an integrity to it, you don't need the transition sentence. 380 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: But it also allows you to move the paragraphs around, 381 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: and so I write in a rough way without transitions. 382 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: Then I reordered the paragraphs, and then, as if I 383 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: were Leonardo, although I'm not as good as Leonardo, I 384 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: put another layer of refinement of finishing of glass onto 385 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: it and then read it out loud, printed out on paper, 386 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: because it reads different on paper than on the screen. 387 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: Read it out loud on paper, Let my wife read it, 388 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: and then do them all round a polishing. 389 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 2: Walter Isacson interviewed about one hundred different people for the book, 390 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 2: Musk's friends, family, and colleagues, and a smattering of detractors 391 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 2: or frenemies. It was a massive undertaking, and it's those 392 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: interviews that inform everything until twenty twenty one, when Isaacson 393 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: set out to be Musk's ever present shadow. 394 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: I did the first half of the book. First, wrote 395 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: it all the way through, getting me up to the 396 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: point where I'm riding alongside Musk. No that I'm not there. 397 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: In twenty seven, twenty eighteen, yeah, when he's smoking Dopa 398 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: and the Joe Roganshaw. I'm not in the studio. I'm 399 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: happily ensconced in Jennifer Dowdner's biotech lab or something. And 400 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: then I had the stuff that was unfolding at the 401 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: time and me being there as a happening, and I 402 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: kept that in this big chronological set of notes and 403 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: waited to start writing it until pretty much I had 404 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: done the most of the reporting. I was putting the 405 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: finishing touches, you know, six weeks before it got published 406 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: in September. 407 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 2: When do you sort of know when you're done? I mean, 408 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: like in the middle of your story, he bought Twitter. 409 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: So how far do you need to see that through 410 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: before you feel like okay? 411 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: I felt I needed to make sure that you understood 412 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: Musk fully so that whatever happens five years from now, 413 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: this book still explains who he is, because even though 414 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: there are multiple mask personalities, it's not like he changes 415 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: in essence. But there were moments as the book was finishing, 416 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: I'd get up in the morning and just turn on 417 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: my phone. Is it still there? Was it like a 418 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: rocket ship? Did it blow up? So yeah, I held 419 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: my breath a couple of times, but I began to 420 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: see that it had come to a good logical conclusion. 421 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 2: There are some stories about Musk that have been repeated 422 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 2: so many times, often without supporting details, that they become 423 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 2: kind of slogans for his critics or his supporters. Musk 424 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: is the scion of an emerald mind, or no, Musk 425 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 2: came from nothing, Musk founded Tesla, or he just bought 426 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: it from some other guys who did. Part of Isaacson's 427 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 2: task was winding his way back through these layers of 428 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 2: Musk lore. There are people who have extremely strong views 429 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: of Musk, and they're often based on stories that get 430 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 2: told over and over again. Did you start the book 431 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: knowing those stories and wanting to delve into them. Did 432 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 2: you keep tabs on the perceptions that people have and 433 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: you were trying to play against those or you were 434 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 2: trying to block out that type. 435 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: Of Oh, I knew all the disputes, whether or not 436 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: he deserved to be called a co founder of Tesla's, 437 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: whether or not his father had an emerald mind. And 438 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: you know what, there's not an exact one sentence answer, 439 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: but there's a maybe two paragraph answer on the emerald 440 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: mind and the fact that his father didn't have an 441 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: ownership stake, but did for a while get a supply 442 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: of emeralds from a mine that was in Zambia, not 443 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: in South Africa, and then it went bankrupt, so he 444 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: had money for a while, but then the business collapses. 445 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: That's not as easy or as fun of a hot 446 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: take of he's an emerald mind heir or he didn't 447 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: own an emerald mind. 448 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: But at the same time, he did invest in Musk's 449 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 2: first company, and his mom give him some money, Like 450 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 2: there was a kind of. 451 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: There was a very I can't remember, but was like 452 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: ten THOLLI yeah, ten thousand dollars. 453 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: He did support him, Like the part of the story 454 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 2: that's like he had a little leg up because his 455 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: family could give him some money to start a company. 456 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 2: There's a nugget there. 457 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: That's a nugget, and I explained both the starting of 458 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: that company but also basically running away to Canada when 459 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: he's seventeen, and you know, he arrives with virtually no money. 460 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: He has a couple of thousand dollars of travelers check, 461 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: which he loses on a bus. He ends up you know, 462 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: a student loans. So it's not as if he gets 463 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: there and has, like Benjamin Franklin, only three coins in 464 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: his pocket, but he also doesn't have pockets full of emeralds, 465 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: and he's not a trust fund kid. So that just 466 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: shows that this knee jerk all or nothing, that he 467 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: had huge sums of money in his pockets when he came, 468 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: or he was totally put Now life is a bit 469 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: more complex, and I try to show just the truth, 470 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: the exact number he had and what that did and 471 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: what it didn't do. 472 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: The Tesla origin story is that's something that I had 473 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: heard about, knew very little about, and it's it's very messy. 474 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: It takes a lot long time to go through actually 475 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: how they ended at the point of like who's a 476 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: founder and who's not a founder of Tesla. 477 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: If something's a big success, all of a sudden, everybody remembers, Hey, 478 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: that was my idea, or hey they stole that idea 479 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: from me, And so the story is out a one 480 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: sentence answer, but it's a pretty fast moving, a hope chapter. 481 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: Martin Eberhart and Mark Tarpening having tried to start a company. 482 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: They had no money and no employees, but they had 483 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: the name Tesla that they had registered JB. Strabel, who 484 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: was also creating a battery company and trying to do 485 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: ac propulsion. And then Musk, who puts in the money, 486 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: puts all these groups together, becomes a chairman and funds it. 487 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: So in the end, who gets to be called the founder? Well, boy, 488 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: they fight over it. I mean, it's just so brutal. 489 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: They hate each other. I mean, if you mentioned Mark 490 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: Tarpening's name, he gets mad, and vice versa. And it 491 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: went to court, and in the end the court said, 492 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: here are five people who equally have the rights to 493 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: call themselves co founders of Tesla. Once again, I got 494 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: no dog in this hunt. I tell you the story, 495 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: and I try to do it step by step. Who 496 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: does what, and you demystify things, you debunk certain myths, 497 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: and you also don't fall into the vortex of all 498 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: these controversies. 499 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: I love the detail that they actually did have a 500 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 2: non disparagement agreement as part of the court case, but they. 501 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: Themselves, I mean, yes, right, I mean, these are guys 502 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: even when they're talking to me, I've signed a non disparagement, 503 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: but he's an asshole. He's lying, you know. 504 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: And one of the guys even says I don't understand 505 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: he's the richest. 506 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: Man in the world. Martin Neberhard. 507 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: Martin Nebhert says, he's the richest man in the world. 508 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: Why does he have to keep talking about it? He 509 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: has everything? Yeah, yeah, Why you know? 510 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: Why are you so mad about Martin Eberhart? Why does 511 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: it eat away at you so much? And he would say, 512 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: this guy tried to take the credit. And in the end, 513 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: you don't understand Musk if you don't understand why Musk 514 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: is so obsessed by these things. 515 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: After the break, Isaacson recounts how he maintains access even 516 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: as he's divulging embarrassing details his subjects don't want the 517 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: world to know. 518 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: Stay with us. 519 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: It's one thing to be able to tell the story, 520 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 2: but to tell it, you have to have it. You 521 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 2: have to not only show up in the right places 522 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: at the right times, lingering long enough that people might 523 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: even forget while you're there, but you also need an 524 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: eye for the details and an ear for the dialogue 525 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: that combined to create the story. Something Isaacson learned decades 526 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 2: ago working at Time magazine. 527 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: The very first story I wrote is a political reporter 528 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: for Time, involved the Ronald Reagan campaign, and I was 529 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: covering it, and I had gotten to know one of 530 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: his advisors on the airplane trips, a guy named Mike Deaver. 531 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: And one day Reagan is giving his stump speech and 532 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: he's spouting off all these things they're just untripped, that 533 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: trees cause pollution, that you know, typical Reagan things, welfare 534 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: queen stories or whatever. And I look at Mike Deaver, 535 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: who's standing next to me, and he's shaking his head 536 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: and he says, I don't know where did he get 537 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: those facts? You know, we always try to correct him. 538 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: He of course thought he was just talking to me, 539 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: But I'm a journalist. So the end of the week's 540 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: story comes out and it leads with Mike Deaver saying 541 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: to me, he's making all this up. It's so frustrating. 542 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: Where to get those facts? Well, I thought that was 543 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: going to be the end of all my access. Stunningly, 544 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: I get on the campaign plane for the next trip 545 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: and I got called to the front of the plane 546 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: and diver sits me next to Ronald Reagan. Suddenly they 547 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: knew who I was. They paid attention. It was as 548 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: if by swatting them. I mean, I just told the truth. 549 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, this is a guy to be 550 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: reckoned with. And it was another of those lessons that 551 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: if you have access, they respect you more, not less, 552 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: if you use it to try to tell the truth, 553 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: even in ways they may not like. 554 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: With Musk, that access meant logging miles in the ground, 555 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: on the factory floor, and many more in the air. 556 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: Granted it was on Musk's private jet, not exactly the 557 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty style reporting. 558 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: Isaacson came up on. I'm very good at sleeping on airplanes. 559 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: I learned that when I covered the nineteen eighty presidential campaign. 560 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: I was really young, just coming out of the Times 561 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: picking in New Orleans and joined Time magazine and they 562 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: put me on the Ted Kennedy campaign, which was a 563 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: relentless campaign and a small charter plane, and I learned 564 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: to fall asleep instantly because it was the only time 565 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: he gets sleep. But when I was traveling with Musk, 566 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: you'd get on the plane and of course you couldn't 567 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: sleep because it was the one time when he would 568 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: just be there free, associating, and so I never tried 569 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: to bother him when he was thinking. I'd just be 570 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: there alert during the entire plane ride three four hours, 571 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: and occasionally I'd just say one or two words, like cybertruck, 572 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: and he'd talk about his autistic son Saxon, saying the 573 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: future should look like the future, and so how he 574 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: had changed the design. But you just prompt him with 575 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: a word or two and let them free associate. So 576 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: I didn't do any truly formal interviews where you just 577 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: sitting across from somebody with a notebook. I would just 578 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: let him talk as we walked along an assembly line, 579 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: or let him talk during the airplane ride. And sometimes 580 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: he'd have fifteen minutes between meetings. They knew to schedule that, 581 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: where he'd be in an intense meeting, say about Optimist 582 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: the robot, and then in the same conference room they 583 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: might do another meeting about battery cells and what the 584 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: anode and cathoe should be made of. But there'd always 585 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: be ten or fifteen minutes between them. And at first 586 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 1: I thought maybe I should step out, because he used 587 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: that private time to do emails. Sometimes i'd sort of 588 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: fire up Twitter to see if he was tweeting or 589 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: I was sitting in the room with him. Sometimes he'd 590 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: play video games, but then he would look up at 591 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: some point, and I would do something we in New 592 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: Orleans always do at dinner, So I'd say, tell me 593 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: a story. Say tell me the story of the twenty 594 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: eighteen surge at the Fremont Factory. Tell me the story 595 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: of when you went on Joe Rogan, you know, tell 596 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 1: me the story of when you did that tweet about 597 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: calling a British cave diver a pedophile. And it wouldn't 598 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: be a pointed question. It was always prefaced with tell 599 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: me the story. And sometimes he'd be with people have 600 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: been working with him for a long time, so in 601 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: some ways my role was not to interview him, but 602 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 1: to extract stories and bide my time. And the great 603 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: luxury of having two years and almost indefinite amounts of 604 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: time with him is you could go back to it 605 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: later and say, tell me again about that story of 606 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: where you're looking at the toy at your desk. The 607 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: difficult thing with Mosque is that some he'd recount things, 608 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: but you know, his memory wasn't perfect. That's true of 609 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: all of us, but there's everything with Musk. It's more 610 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: so with him. He could embellish or whatever. So I 611 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: often would have to go to five or six people. 612 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: I'd have to go to Mark Junkosa and say, tell 613 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: me the story about when he fired everybody at Starlink, 614 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: put you in charge and you redesign the Starlink satellite 615 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: to make it simpler. And I'd have must tell the story, 616 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: and I'd have Musk assistant who was there, tell the story. 617 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: And sometimes you get Kimball to tell the story. And 618 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: so in the book, I'm very careful to say hear 619 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: all the sources. And I warned Musk. I said, you 620 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: know you're going to read the book and the stories 621 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: are not going to be exactly the way you remembered them, 622 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: because other people remember them differently. And he said, I 623 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: know that's the case. I know that the stories may 624 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: not be the way I remembered them even nowadays. I 625 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,240 Speaker 1: talked to Kimball Musk after the book came out. He said, 626 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: you know, I think the book is really good. It's 627 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: not always the way I remember it. But then I 628 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: looked at your sources and I realized you were talking 629 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: to a lot of people. 630 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 2: You said it came off the trail on the set 631 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, and I know you've described how 632 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: you did get called back by him. For some subsequent reporting. 633 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 2: But before that, what you thought was your last day. 634 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 2: Was that a day that you had designated where you said, 635 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 2: I'm going to close my notebook at the end of 636 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 2: this day, and that's it. 637 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: Early in twenty twenty three, I realized I had enough 638 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: material that you can understand Mosk. I had enough stories, 639 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: so whatever he did in the future, you'd get him. 640 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: And I looked for what should be the culmination of 641 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: the book, and I didn't really want it to be 642 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: Twitter and it pottering along and also messing up moderation, 643 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: because I think that's not a big deal for him. 644 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: The big deal was space travel. And I knew that 645 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: he was going to do the launch of Starship in 646 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: Boca Chica, and I'd been there for the surges over 647 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: the course of twenty twenty two where they stacked it 648 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: and unstacked it and tested its thirty three raptor engines 649 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: and fixed all the valves. And I said, I think 650 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: that will be the culminating scene in the book. 651 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 2: And this takes us back to that opening scene from 652 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: our first episode where the Starship rocket makes liftoff but 653 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: then goes off course and they have to blow it 654 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: up over the ocean. 655 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: And I remember talking to my editor and to my 656 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: wife a few hours later, and they had watched this 657 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: on television and they said, oh my god, what does 658 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: this do to the end of this book. I say, 659 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: it's a perfect metaphor. We know Starship's going to launch again, 660 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: we know at some point it's going to get to orbit. 661 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: But I wanted to have a scene that was somewhat pointed, 662 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,439 Speaker 1: of him being determined, of him being visionary, of him 663 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: having taken too many risks and blown up a rocket, 664 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: and him being with people who had work with him 665 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: for twenty years, but also kind of being alone, no 666 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 1: matter who was hugging him, his girlfriend, his mother, his son, 667 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: and him just staring at that little red dot of Mars. 668 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: And I know it sounds like I'm embellishing a bit, 669 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: but it was rising in the sky and thinking, all right, 670 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of smoldering rubble, but if anybody's going 671 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,919 Speaker 1: to get us to Mars is this guy. So it's 672 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: not as if I absolutely respect everything about Mosque, but 673 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: I do respect the fact that he's worth writing about 674 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: because he's having this enormous impact. 675 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 2: And you're very comfortable holding that tension in your head. 676 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: Those of us who are biographers have to be able 677 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: to create characters that we hold many things in our 678 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: minds about them. So I'm very comfortable holding that tension 679 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: I head. I'm very uncomfortable to the fact that as 680 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: a society we've lost the ability to hold that in 681 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: our heads. We either canonize or demonize somebody in one 682 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: hundred and forty characters, and we used to be able 683 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: to understand, to go back to Shakespeare, that even the 684 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: best or molded out of their flaws, and that's true 685 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: of our historical figures, and it's true of an Eon Musk. 686 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 2: There is also a question, though embedded in the WEI 687 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 2: there that goes back to this sort of Time Newsweek 688 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: Walter Cronkite, Is it possible that that approach, the dismissive 689 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 2: approach that always existed their voice, just wasn't included in 690 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: the WEI, that was sort of balancing out positive and negative. 691 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: Yes, I think you're right. There's often a mainstream concent 692 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: census that leaves a lot of people out of forming 693 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: that consensus, and so often the reputations of complex people 694 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: are not just about them, but they are a mirror 695 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: that's reflecting ourselves and It tells us a lot about 696 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: ourselves at any given time, and as you say, different 697 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,720 Speaker 1: people will have different views of it. This is why 698 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: I can write a book about Ben Franklin, even though 699 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: maybe one hundred books have been written about Ben Franklin, 700 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: because every person in every period probably does well to 701 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: try to paint their own view of what he was like. 702 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,399 Speaker 1: And I think history is painted in many layers. I 703 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: think I give you unvarnished what I saw, the good, 704 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: the bad, and the ugly. But I know that that's 705 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: not the final word. I know that a century from 706 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: now people will figure out the historic significance of an 707 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: Elon Musk. No, they'll probably be using some of the 708 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: stories of my book to prove whatever case for against 709 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: them they want to use. But each of us gets 710 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: to write a subsequent draft of our. 711 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 2: Time, or a sensient AI will just be writing it 712 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 2: like they're writing the history of the Dodo bird or 713 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 2: some extinct. 714 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: We'll be interesting to know what a generative large language 715 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: model will do when they can read every biography of 716 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: Musk and you say, was Musk a good guy or 717 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 1: a bad guy? I think that simple question will flummix 718 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: even the most sophisticated AI. 719 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 2: Coming up. On the final episode of On Musk with 720 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson, we weigh up Musk's legacy. What should we 721 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 2: take away from Isaacson On Musk? We ask Isaacson to 722 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 2: answer his critics, try to sess out how this portrait 723 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 2: will age and surface some stories from the book everyone 724 00:42:58,719 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 2: seems to have ignored. 725 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: They kick him out, and for twenty years it's eating 726 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: away at which is why, of course he bunched by Twitter. 727 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: And in the middle of the night, Musk calls hotel 728 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: security and makes him open the safe so he can 729 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: start tweeting out where thinks. That's who Musk is, And 730 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: that's why I just didn't believe him, And I'm not 731 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: even sure he believed himself. People who say I'm not 732 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: as tough on Musk as I should be are always 733 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: using anecdotes from my book to show why we should 734 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,360 Speaker 1: be tough on Musk. I would love it if he 735 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,359 Speaker 1: would lie love for like a year, but he ain't 736 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: gonna do that. 737 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 2: On Musk with Walter Isaacson is a production of Kaleidoscope 738 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 2: and iHeart This show is based on the writing and 739 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 2: reporting of Walter Isaacson It's hosted by me Evan Ratliffe, 740 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 2: produced by Lizzie Jacobs's assistant production from Serena Chow, mixing 741 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 2: and sound design by Rick Kwan. Thomas Walsh did the 742 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 2: engineering from iHeart Podcasts. The executive producers are Katrina Norvel 743 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 2: and Ali Perry. For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by 744 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 2: Monga Shatikador with an assist from Oz Walishan Kostaslinos and 745 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 2: Kate Osbourne. Special thanks to Bob Pittman, Connell Byrne, will Pearson, 746 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 2: Nikki Etur, Kerrie Lieberman, Nathan Otowski, Ali Gavin and the 747 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 2: folks at WWNO who let us use their beautiful studio 748 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 2: in New Orleans. If you like stories about writers in 749 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 2: their process, check out my other show, The Long Form Podcast. 750 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 2: If you want a story about a different South African 751 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 2: programmer who became one of the world's biggest criminals, you 752 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 2: could check out my book, The Mastermind. And for more 753 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 2: shows from Kaleidoscope, be sure to visit Kaleidoscope dot NYC. 754 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.