1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi, 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's book Club. 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: This week, we're back with the author of February's Reese's 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: Book Club pick, Philippa Malitska. Philippa's debut novel, In Her Defense, 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: pulls you deep into a whirlpool of lies and deceit 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: and love and obsession. Anna, a TV star and national treasure, 7 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: is on trial for libel. Her daughter Mary, has severed 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: all ties with the family, and Anna has accused Mary's 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: therapist Jene of brainwashing her daughter and planting falls traumatic memories. 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: Watching carefully from the sidelines is Anna's former employee Gus, 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: who might be the only person who knows the full 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: story and the only person who can set the truth free. 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: So needless to say, this is a real psychological thriller, 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: and by that I mean it proves that sometimes the 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: scariest place is within our own minds. So if you 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: love a story that makes you question who's telling the 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: truth and why you are in exactly the right place, 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: let's turn the page with Philippa Maulitska. Okay, Philip, Welcome back, 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: to the club. 20 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's great to be back again. 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: I really love talking to you a few weeks ago, 22 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: And when we talked earlier this month, you said that 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: you started writing this book while in a prose fiction 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: master's program. And I think of a lot of our 25 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: listeners probably dream about getting to do something like that. 26 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: What inspired you to say I am doing this for real? 27 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: Well, I just gave it a go. I realized that 28 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: I needed a bit of structure, and I really I 29 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: think I wanted a bit of validation. But importantly, I 30 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: got rejected the first year, and I wrote to them 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: and said why, and they said, you applied quite late 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: and there were some really strong people, so give it 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: another go. And I'm so glad I did because then 34 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: I got in the year after. You know that thing 35 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: when you want something so much that you're kind of 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 2: like a bit deaf to people saying no, You're just 37 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: kind of like I've got a parness program. And I'm 38 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: so glad I did because it was very supportive for 39 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 2: the book. 40 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: Well, the book began as an assignment right the seed 41 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: of the idea. 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: I wrote the first three or four chapters for my 43 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: dissertation at the very end of the course, and in 44 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: my final term, I started playing around with voices for 45 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: the story. So I wrote a lot from Anna's perspective, 46 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: but actually it was Gus that became the kind of 47 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: through voice, and I wanted to just stay with her, 48 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: so I played around a lot with the voices. And 49 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: that's the best thing about any writing workshop, whatever it is. 50 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: It doesn't need to be an MA or MFA. It's 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: that space to experiment and play and space to really. 52 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: Evolve the seeds of the story. Were they growing during 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: the program for you? Or is this an idea that 54 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: had haunted you for years and you were like, now 55 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: is the time to bring it to life. 56 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: I think I had been carrying this story with me 57 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: for a while. I think I knew that I wanted 58 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: to pursue it as a novel, whereas I was playing 59 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: around with short stories for quite a bit during my MA. 60 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: So it's almost like knuckling down to the final term, 61 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 2: like Okay, you gotta get this out, You've got to 62 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: write this on the page. And it's scary because you 63 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: know an idea inside you feel safe and no one 64 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: can hurt it, and no one can say that doesn't 65 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: make sense. As soon as you put it on the page, 66 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: you go, oh, goa, how's this really going to work? 67 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: But with the support of that community, it really. Yeah, 68 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: it was how it all kind of started basically. 69 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: Were there any scenes that you wrote originally that stayed 70 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: true in the published version? 71 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: Definitely, When Gus first sees Anathimbo in Stoke on Trent, 72 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: that was actually the beginning of the novel, and then 73 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: that got pushed a little bit later. And you know, 74 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: the great thing that cracked open the novel for me, 75 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to be mentored by Ian rankin 76 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: crime writer extraordinary. He wore this like brilliant black t 77 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: shirt and kind of sort appeared to me a bit 78 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: like Hamlet. You know. He was just brilliant in these 79 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: classes and he read, i mean, five thousand words of 80 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: total draft mess, you know, and we had a chat 81 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: about it and he said, you know, it's got to 82 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: be ambiguous whether this girl is better off with Jeane 83 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: or actually better or should she be back with her family. 84 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: Don't make the family that she's left the perfect family. 85 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 2: Make that ambiguous too, and yeat for me. Yeah, And 86 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: I have actually written him to say thank you, but 87 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: he hasn't replied, So Ian, if you're listening, thanks for that. 88 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: Were you steeped in the world of thrillers as a 89 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: reader or did you discover the genre as you were 90 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: writing it. 91 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: I discovered the genre as I was writing it. For me, 92 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: character always drives plot. So with a character like Gene, 93 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: with a setting like Rome, with a witness narrator like Gus, 94 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 2: this was always going to be quite kind of pacy 95 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: and anxious and thrillery. But I learned on the job 96 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 2: with that, and I'm so grateful because I think thrillers, 97 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: you know, there are certain tricks and things that you 98 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,559 Speaker 2: can do that enable you to really keep your reader 99 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: on side. Like an unreliable narrator, like a setting like Rome, 100 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: You're able to kind of play with different literary tropes, 101 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: I guess, and they're available to you, and readers expect 102 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: them and they're satisfied when they get them as well. 103 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: So I'm really happy in that genre, happy as you 104 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: can be happy and unsettled. 105 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: When you say character drives plot, from like our writing standpoint, 106 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: what do you mean? 107 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 3: So? 108 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: I believe that once you have your characters down, and 109 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: once you know about them, and once you know what 110 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: they're searching for and what they're trying to achieve, and 111 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: what they're embarrassed about and what they're trying to heal. 112 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: I believe that that is where the story emerges from, 113 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: rather than story kind of coming top down and then 114 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: having characters like chess pieces to act it out. I 115 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: really strongly believe that. But that's really just how I 116 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: am as a writer. For me, if it's not true 117 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 2: for the character, then the plot doesn't feel true and 118 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: then it will starts to kind of tumble down like 119 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: a house of cards. So getting your characters really really right, 120 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: which can take years, the story will emerge from that. 121 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: But that's the long, long process of writing, and you 122 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: have to have faith. You have to have faith that 123 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,679 Speaker 2: those characters will teach you what they want to say. 124 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: Are there any tricks you have for building out these characters? 125 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: Like do you have whiteboards with post its and how 126 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: do you go about doing it? 127 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: Yeah? I definitely have like long documents where I really 128 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: had to interrogate myself like a Q and A like Okay, 129 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 2: what did she where did she go to school? How 130 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 2: does she feel about saying how schoolbag? What's the most 131 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: embarrassing moment of her life, what's her relationship in this 132 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: book with her parents? So actually having to kind of 133 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: sit yourself down and really force yourself to solidify those 134 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: answers is a really helpful exercise, and then you feel 135 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: more confident in making decisions from their perspective. So, yeah, 136 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: it's a bit horrible and queasy to do it first, 137 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: but actually that kind of discipline is really really helpful. 138 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems so, especially if your character is driving 139 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: the plot. I'm curious how you felt as the book 140 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: took shape. What surprised you the most about yourself as 141 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: a writer. Oh? 142 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: What surprised me most about myself as a writer. I 143 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: think I was surprised that I could keep turning up 144 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: to the story and I had the stamina, because you know, 145 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: these are dark stories and this is a dark world 146 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: to immerse yourself in, and particularly I was working full time. 147 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: So I think I was surprised by my stamina, and 148 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: I'm proud of my stamina to keep going and to 149 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: keep juggling both types of work. I think in terms 150 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: of my characters, they surprised me all the time. Gus 151 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: surprised me a lot, right to the very end. I 152 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: had to ReadWrite, things in the ending to kind of 153 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: fit what was true. This is real character driving plot 154 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: things like I had a version of the ending where Gus, 155 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 2: you know, saved the day and she's this great person, 156 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: and I was like, that's just not her, that's just 157 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: not her. Yeah, it's more complicated than that. 158 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: You know, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, these 159 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: characters feel so real to you. You're almost speaking about 160 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: them as there as if they're people in your life. 161 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: How does it feel, now that the book is out 162 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: into the world to have these characters be interpreted by 163 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: all these other people. 164 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: It's it's kind of a wonderful experience, and it's kind 165 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: of liberating actually to just say, right, they're yours now, 166 00:08:54,679 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: and you get to feel frustrated, surprised, irritated, charmed by 167 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 2: them as much as I did. You can't control what 168 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: your readers are going to think. And I think, particularly 169 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 2: what I tried to get across in her defense is 170 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: that people are very contradictory. I was thinking about it 171 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: earlier today. Probably one of the only straightforward people in 172 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: the book is Bonamie, which is Anna's husband, and I 173 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: did love writing him at times because it felt like 174 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 2: coming to a lovely safe space where he plays a 175 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: straight back you know, he's a lovely man. Kind of 176 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 2: digressing there. But I think having readers navigate the contradictory 177 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: nature of my characters is a total blessing, to be honest. 178 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: I just hope that they don't get too frustrated with 179 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: them when they don't maybe act as straightforwardly as the 180 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: reader might like. 181 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: Well, I think you're touching on something that I felt 182 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: reading the book, because the narrator Gussie could be read 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: as either malicious or just lonely, and Anna, her employer 184 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: could be mad with grief or genuinely just kind of 185 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: a bad person and mother. As a reader, you're sort 186 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: of you're drawing such different conclusions chapter to chapter. Is 187 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: it interesting to watch and hear readers draw different conclusions 188 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: about these characters? 189 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: So intimately, I actually really like it. I would love 190 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 2: to be in a book club with my readers just 191 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 2: to ask some of those questions and to hear some 192 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 2: of their frustrations. And I don't know, I yeah, I 193 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: kind of empathize basically. 194 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like you're in the book club 195 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: right now. I think you're going to get reader feedback 196 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: from Reese's book Club. I want to crack the figurative cover. 197 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: Can we talk about the epigraph for a second? I 198 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: loved it so much. Yes, yes, you include three quotations. Yeah, 199 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: will you read each of them for us? 200 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: I would love to thank you. Yeah, I would absolutely 201 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 2: love to Two of them Intia from Poets, and then 202 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: one is from Kafka, So I'll read the first one. 203 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: You remember too much. My mother said to me recently, 204 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: why hold on to all that? And I said, where 205 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: can I put it down? That's from the Glass Essay 206 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: by Anne Carson. And then there's this Kafka aphorism, A 207 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: cage went in search of a bird. And then there's 208 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: the final piece of poetry from Emily Barry, who's an 209 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: amazing British poet. People can be removed from the world. 210 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: They don't tell you that, but it's true. I mean 211 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: they do tell you, but they don't tell you people 212 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: you love can be removed from the world. They can 213 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 2: remove themselves. They will be removed from the world. Didn't 214 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: anybody ever tell you that? And I'm just remembering. I 215 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: once chased that poet down a tube platform in London 216 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 2: to tell her I'd included this in my book, and 217 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 2: she's just like, leave me alone. But the I always 218 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: think of them as bread crumbs for the reader to 219 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: have in their mind. Thematically, they're bigger than bread crumbs. 220 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: They're probably like big sour day loads of bread. But 221 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: I want them to have kind of in their mind, percolating, 222 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: fomenting as they read. So, you know, the first quote, 223 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: it's some mother talk. It's a mother talking to her 224 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 2: daughter saying you're remembering too much about what went on, 225 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: and she says, yeah, but where do I put it? 226 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 2: And that to me is so what is going on 227 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: in the book in terms of therapy, you know, looking 228 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: for containment, looking for something that the mother relationship hasn't 229 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: quite provided them and finding it in the wrong places. 230 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: And that Kafka just reminded me of Gene, you know, 231 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: the imprisoning, totalist nature of her relationships with the girls 232 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: in the book. And then the last one by Emily Barry, 233 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: it spoke to me so much about that idea that 234 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: anybody can disappear. You were totally within your rights to 235 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: just cut everyone off and start again, and yet so 236 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: it's so unthinkable and awful to do so. And you know, 237 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 2: for all of Anna's flaws. The horror of her situation 238 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 2: still blows my mind. Your adult child decides they no 239 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: longer want a relationship with you, and you don't really 240 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: know why. And to me, that kind of loss it's 241 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: not as straightforward as grief. It's ambiguous because they're still 242 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: alive and you know where they live, but you can't 243 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: go and speak to them because they've got a restraining 244 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 2: order against you, as is the case in this book. 245 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: So that idea of self removal from the world haunts 246 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 2: me as well. 247 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: I think they're all individually really beautiful, but what I 248 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: found so interesting is that they actually work together really beautifully. 249 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: And I'm a big quote person. I actually I used 250 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: to be embarrassed about how much I love quotes because 251 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: I thought, am I so corny that I love quotes 252 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: as much? And then Gloria Steinem told me that she 253 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: also loves quotes because it helps her put truths into context. 254 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: And I felt so much better. And I was reading 255 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: these three quotes, thinking, there are infinite quotes in the world. 256 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: How in the world did you choose these three? What 257 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: was your process? 258 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: So when you're in the really joyful beginning bit of writing, 259 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: it's almost like a narcotic thing where everything speaks to 260 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: you very loudly, and everything's about your book, and every 261 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: song is about your book, and every conversation you think 262 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: someone else is going to write my book. It's this 263 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: like very porous, absolutely amazing state. It doesn't last. I 264 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: wish it lasted, but as a. 265 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: Result, it's like being in love. 266 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, or exactly, or it is like that, or it's 267 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: a bit like how Gust feels when she first starts 268 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: therapy with Gene, where it's like the paintings have new 269 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: meanings and you get on this like high high vibe 270 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: frequency and it's honestly the most amazing kind of part 271 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: of the creative process. I wish it lasted forever. It doesn't, 272 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: but in that process, you're like you're bagpieing stuff. Your 273 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: brain is like that shiny thing. That shiny thing. That's 274 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: my theme. I'm glad that they spoke to you too. 275 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: I love the way that they can kind of unlock 276 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: something in the book and unlock something in the reader's anticipation. 277 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like it sets the tone for the 278 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: book in that way. 279 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah, that cast someone I find really meaningful. I 280 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: think still like that really gives me probably the biggest 281 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: goose bumps of all three. 282 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: Do you think about your own mother daughter a relationship? 283 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: Is that why? 284 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 3: I think it's that thing of Yeah, probably, I guess 285 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 3: thought of my mom when you read it. When you 286 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 3: read it, yeah, I think. 287 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: I remember I told my mom when I first started 288 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: going to therapy, and she's like, why, you know, what 289 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: are you gonna say? It's like, don't worry, it's not. 290 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: I have a very great relationship with my mum. Luckily 291 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: she got her hands on the book as quickly as 292 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: she could just to check she wasn't in it. But 293 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: I've dedicated it to her and my dad just say 294 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: that they can feel okay about the job they did. 295 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I actually think it's funny. Parents sometimes who haven't 296 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: tried therapy oftentimes feel like if you're going to therapy, 297 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: everything is the parent's fault, and actually I find it 298 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: to be the exact opposite. Going to therapy is the 299 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: act of taking ownership over your own life. 300 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: Totally, and the right therapist will say, yeah, it's not 301 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: therefore it's yours. The wrong therapist, as Gene in this book, says, yeah, 302 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: you know what you've done you've been done, You've been 303 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: done bad cards here exactly. Then that's where she plays 304 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: it so wrongly and villainously. I guess. 305 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: So you wrote a thriller, But the thrill, the suspicion, 306 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: the scare is all psychological. It's like, no one's coming 307 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: around with a weapon. There's no threaaten of physical violence. 308 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: It's really about the unpredictability of memory. Why did you 309 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: feel like that was such an effective scary idea? 310 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: Well, so, I think we think of our memories as 311 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: these kind of robust stories that we tell ourselves about 312 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 2: our lives. Like you know, I've always loved reading, and 313 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: my first memory of reading a book is X, Y 314 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: and Z. But actually they are just narratives created in language, 315 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: stored in our minds, that we then deal like you know, 316 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: Tarot cards, to tell ourselves about who we are. They're very, very, 317 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: as the lawyer says in the book, prone to contamination, 318 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: slippery like eels, you know. And the more I read 319 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 2: about false memory syndrome, the more I read about the 320 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 2: wrong type of witness interrogation, I realized, actually, our sense 321 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: of self is really flawed, and in the wrong hands 322 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 2: we can be led to believe totally different things about ourselves. 323 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: And that really was mind blowing and tricky to kind 324 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 2: of create in fiction because you didn't want to totally 325 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 2: unpack everything that happens in the therapy room, but you 326 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: wanted to try and get across some of that suggestiveness 327 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: and some of the power of language to kind of 328 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 2: make you actually think that things that happened to you 329 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: maybe didn't or did or didn't you know. So it's yeah, 330 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 2: false memory syndrome is just totally fascinating, and yeah, there's 331 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: just so much you can read online about it. People 332 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: believing all sorts of completely crazy things about themselves. 333 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes psychological weapons are even more wielding, I would. 334 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 2: Say, definitely. Yeah, they're much scarier than like, you know, 335 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: I don't know, we've all experienced that in various minor ways, 336 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: hopefully you know, with ghosting or whatever. But when you 337 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 2: have a very very intense relationship with someone and they 338 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: suddenly go cold on you, it's horrific. Yeah, and Gene 339 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: loves to use that. 340 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: So you mentioned so many of the characters' names. We 341 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: have Gus, who's a loner artist with some really big secrets. 342 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: We have Mary, who is a young privileged woman who 343 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: has gone missing, essentially Anna, her mother, who was a 344 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: lifestyle media maven who definitely reminds me of a real 345 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: life character who I will not name, and indeed a 346 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: therapist with very questionable tactics. And they are all women, 347 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: and none of them stand out as an obvious heroine, 348 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: and none of them, at least in my opinion, were 349 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: particularly likable. What was behind that decision. 350 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: I think it was a commitment to truth and authenticity 351 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: in that people are really contradictory. I definitely wanted Gus's 352 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: voice in her perspective to be the most compelling, but 353 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean I don't think as a writer that 354 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: you have to make her actions totally compelling and morally perfect. Gus, 355 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: I think, at the end of the day, does the 356 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: right thing by trying to guarantee Mary's freedom. I do 357 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 2: think that, and I think she sacrifices herself on the 358 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: witness stand. She gets humiliated, she looks like the weak link, 359 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 2: and actually she's kind of struck that deal with Gene. 360 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: So it takes a long time and quite a lot 361 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: of patience to sit with Gus and to kind of 362 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: see that she is eventually trying to do the right thing. 363 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 2: But then you see her in the kind of last 364 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: bit of the book still falling into similar familiar patterns, 365 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 2: and that felt very authentic to me. 366 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: Did you feel pressure to make any of them redeemable? 367 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: I think we wanted to make Mary a little bit 368 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 2: less cold than hostile. She was pretty icy, and I 369 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 2: made her a little bit warmer, But I was keen 370 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: not to make her the kind of perfect victim. Either. 371 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: She plays with us, you know, she really plays with 372 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: her and she leads her on. But the thing is, 373 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: we've all done that, so I want that to also 374 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 2: be something that we can recognize that we might have 375 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 2: done when we were kind of being messy in our twenties, 376 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 2: you know, so hopefully you know, not necessarily likable, but 377 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 2: hopefully or is what I'm aiming at. 378 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: So I'm reading, and every time a character makes a 379 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: bad decision, I'm like again, I like you, You're so 380 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: mad at these characters sometimes. And I was wondering while 381 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: you were plotting out the story, did you think about, Okay, 382 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: what is the right thing for this character to do 383 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: and then just write the opposite. How did you do this? 384 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 2: Ah? The plotting, As I say, character always drives plots 385 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 2: so when you're dealing with flawed, contradictory characters, they are 386 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: going to do the wrong thing. Also, though, and this 387 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: is very important to me, they think they're doing the 388 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: right thing. And that was a really important thing to 389 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 2: try and unlock in this book. Gene, even though she's 390 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: a villain, she's got a Messiah complex. She thinks that 391 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 2: she is helping. She honestly thinks that she's helping some 392 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: of these girls that she works with. And Anna thinks 393 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: that the right way to get her daughter out of 394 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: the clutches of this evil woman is to take her 395 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: down as publicly as she can. So I think I 396 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 2: didn't necessarily say, Okay, here's a cross roads. We could 397 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 2: go like north or south here, and you know it 398 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 2: will go south. 399 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: We don't know if I believe you a fellaver. 400 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: Doing it just to wind everyone up. 401 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: I usually ask one unhinged question every interview that pops 402 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: into my mind. Here's my unhinged question for you, Is there, 403 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: secretly are there any pieces of you in any of 404 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: these characters? 405 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 2: In every single one, I think, yeah, Oh, I think so, 406 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: I think so. I think most Wow. Mostly in Gus, 407 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 2: I think because she watches and she feels like an outsider, 408 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,239 Speaker 2: and I think I didn't permanently think of myself as 409 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 2: an outsider. But there's a lot of her observations, particularly 410 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: of those girls that's the art school when she first 411 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: arrives in Rome, those felt really true to me. You know, 412 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: just by virtue of being in that first person narrative's 413 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 2: voice for so long, you do pour a lot into 414 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 2: yourself into that character. The bit that really is most 415 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 2: of me in Gus and this is actually so sad 416 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: to admit, but also amazing, I think, is that she 417 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 2: talks about how she wasn't pursuing her career as a 418 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: ceramic artist for a while, and in those moments when 419 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: life got in the way and she wasn't committing to 420 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: what made her passionate, she says, in those moments, she 421 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: just felt unbearably sad. And that's exactly how I used 422 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 2: to feel when I would have some time when I 423 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: wasn't writing, or when I felt like I wasn't pursuing writing. 424 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 2: You know, that kind of just desperate sadness about not 425 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: following it or doing it, or feeling like it was 426 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: running away from me, or you know that to me, 427 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: that kind of creative ambition of Gus's. I think I 428 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: really poured a lot of myself into. 429 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: Is there a character who is secretly your favorite? 430 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: Bonamie? He's just a lovely man of me, is so nice. 431 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 2: I'm also quite into Anna's dog, Quill. I think he's 432 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 2: very cute. But yeah, I like I really like Bonimir, 433 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: but he can be quite weak. You know, He's not 434 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 2: perfect either, But I do think that Bonamy's a nice guy. 435 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: You know, in thinking about Gus and what you just shared, 436 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: like the pieces of herself that were sad when she 437 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: wasn't pursuing her dream, I think it was so it 438 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: was such a universal feeling, and like at the heart 439 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: of her character is this deep loneliness and desire to 440 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: be seen. And there's a big theme in your book 441 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: about being seen versus being known, And I actually have 442 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: never thought of the difference. What is it in your mind? 443 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: That's that's so amazing that you've picked that out, because 444 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: it's also to the portrait school and sitting as a 445 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,719 Speaker 2: model and being sort of superficially seen. So the difference 446 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: between being seen and known, so seen it has a superficiality, right, 447 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: I see you, I see you across the room. I 448 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: see how you look, I paint my portrait of you. 449 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: But being known as being, you know, seen in three 450 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: dimensions and accepted and actually loved for your flaws. I 451 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: think these characters are yearning to be known by everybody else. 452 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: And that's really what attracts Gus to Jeane is that 453 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: she finds herself in the position of being known for 454 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: the first time. Likewise, Mary wants to be known, I 455 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: think a bit more by Gus, who just sees her 456 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: is attracted to her. We're all yearning to be known 457 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: on some level, to be seen in our total parts 458 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: and with our bad sides too, And I think that's 459 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: what I'm getting at with these characters, these contradictory characters, 460 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: with their bad sides. Hopefully readers are knowing them, not 461 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: just seeing them. 462 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: That's really beautifully said, Just for anybody who hasn't read 463 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: that scene. If they haven't. Gus is an art model 464 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: and somebody paints a portrait and she looks at it 465 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: and just does not recognize herself, and it's disorienting. 466 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: It's such a sad scene. She thinks she's gonna she's 467 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 2: been sitting for this portrait for this girl that she's 468 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: basically in love with and they've had this kind of 469 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 2: intense relationship, and so she thinks that when the portrait 470 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 2: kind of is revealed to her, that she'll be portrayed 471 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: in a way that meant that she was known rather 472 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: than seen. And what comes out is something superficial, something 473 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 2: a bit derivative. It's a bad portrait, and Gus is 474 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: devastated because she she feels that she's been misrepresented, and yeah, 475 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 2: she's very sad in that scene, but she can't say why, 476 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: and that's why I'm hungering in my face. 477 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: It's a really powerful scene. The knowing versus seeing reminded 478 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: me of something actually from a therapist. So one time 479 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: a therapist asked what my fear was around breaking up 480 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: with a guy, and I thought of living in this 481 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: really really depressing studio apartment in Los Angeles. It had 482 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: no windows and really old, gross carpet everywhere that was 483 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: dirty no matter how much I cleaned it, and it 484 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: was just such a depressing place to live. And I 485 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: was depressed about my career at the time, and I 486 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: would lie in bed at night just feeling this deep 487 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: sense of loneliness and I wasn't alone I was surrounded 488 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: by people, but I was so deeply lonely. And when 489 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: she asked me that question, I thought, Okay, it's that loneliness. 490 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: And I pictured that apartment and that was my deepest fear. 491 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: And she said, oh, that's so interesting because you've built 492 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: a whole career around the opposite. You are obsessed with connection. 493 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: And I had a huge light bulb go off in 494 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: my mind because I think so often we are pursuing 495 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: things in our lives based on these deep seated fears. 496 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: And when I think about you writing this book about 497 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: being seen and being known, I was wondering if it 498 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: was an antidote to one of your deepest feares. 499 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: This is therapy, now, Danielle, This is really undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. 500 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: I think there's the whole practice of writing a book 501 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: and saying, hey, everyone, you know, look what I've done, 502 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: because you are on some level, you are you're saying, 503 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: look at my thoughts, look at what I think about this. 504 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: It is about being known. And as much as you 505 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: can say, gosh, you know, readers reading this and I 506 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: feel very exposed on the page now, and you know, 507 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: do they think I'm gassed? And who you know at 508 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 2: the same time, it's totally thrilling. It's like, I've been 509 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: very authentic about most of what I think in that book, 510 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: and actually having it out on the page feels liberating actually, 511 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: And in terms of your it's just interesting as well 512 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: that you know you've built a life away from that loneliness. 513 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 2: I think what's so cool about writing is that you 514 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: are able to recreate things that you've experienced in social 515 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: situations and take control of them effectively. You can take 516 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: control of them, you can be the master manipulator of them. 517 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: And I think that speaks to addressing kind of powerlessness 518 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: that you might have felt in certain context at different times. 519 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: So you know that the power of spinning your own 520 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: yarn or in your case, building this incredible career as 521 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: an interviewer, like it's about you regaining control over your fears. Wow, 522 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: And I think yeah, I think that also speaks to 523 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 2: the theme of motherhood as well. You know, I kept 524 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: coming back to this book and this story because this 525 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: idea of you know, adult child cutting themselves off from 526 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: you felt to me like a nightmare that I wanted 527 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: to work out what the response would be. And I 528 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 2: think a lot of writers do that. They take their 529 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: worst fears, they take their phobias, they create a novel 530 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 2: about it, and then they go, Okay, I've dealt with that, 531 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: so I'll know what to do if it happens. In 532 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: my case, I wouldn't do what Anna Fimbo did in 533 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: any respect. Yeah, but it's interesting that you kind of 534 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: I mean again, I think therapists would have a field 535 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 2: day that you are just kind of mapping out your 536 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 2: worst fears and trying to come up with a good 537 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: response to them. Yeah. 538 00:30:53,200 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: I love your explanation of that. That's so beautiful, Philip. 539 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: But I love asking our guests what they've bookmarked this week, 540 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: and it can be a fun quote or something you've 541 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: texted your best friend or axel your partner. What is 542 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: something that you have bookmarked? 543 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: So I'm actually due to give birth in the next 544 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 2: week or so, so a lot of my social media 545 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: is kind of about how to change nappies or all 546 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 2: sorts of things about I was the one googling how 547 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 2: to change nappies. I didn't get any solid answers. But 548 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: this was a quote from the writer Rachel Cask, the 549 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: British writer who I really love, and it weirdly came 550 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: to me on Facebook through like a forum of something. 551 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: But she said, I remain fascinated by where you go 552 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: as a woman once you are a mother, and if 553 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 2: you ever come back, And I thought, wow, Yeah, I 554 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: read it in the bath and I screenshoted it, send 555 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 2: it to my friends, and you know what, that would 556 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: probably be a really good beginning of another novel if 557 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: you ever come back. So I'm very much in that 558 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: headspace at the moment. So yeah, that was what I 559 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: book marked. 560 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: There's this great book from Alicia Menendez called The Likability Trap, 561 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: and she talks about motherhood in that way. She talks 562 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: about how her biggest fear was like that she would 563 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 1: never be the same again and people wouldn't perceive her 564 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: the same way. There's so much identity shifting that goes 565 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: into becoming a mom, and motherhood is such a charged 566 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: topic that runs through your book. Did the proximity to 567 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: it make the book feel more honest or more frightening? 568 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 2: I think. I mean, by the time I was pregnant, 569 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: I was just copy editing the book, so I wasn't 570 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: able to kind of go in and like thematically address 571 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: as much as I probably would like to. But I 572 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 2: think I've just always known this. What scares me most 573 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: about motherhood is this idea that they will have a 574 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: scorecard on you. Your child will be like, yeah, you 575 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: did some things well, some things not so well, And 576 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: that's something you have to reconcile yourself with. I just 577 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: heard Sadie Smith on another podcast talking about how she 578 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: wanted to knock on her children's doors and be like, hey, kids, 579 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 2: so how's it going, you know, like, how have they come? 580 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: And they're like, mom, you're being weird, you know. And 581 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: I think that idea that like, you know, you're learning 582 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: on the job. And Anna, this is a moment that 583 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 2: I really respond to you with. Anna is when she says, 584 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 2: you know, the moment you work out how to do it, 585 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 2: they've actually gone and then they've got the scorecard on you. 586 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: And I really empathize with that. But you know, you're 587 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: learning about this role and how to bring someone through 588 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: the messy chaos of life just as they're growing up. 589 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: And it's terrifying, frankly, it really is. 590 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: Is there anything that you would change in the story 591 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: now that you're on the precipice of becoming a mom? 592 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 2: Oh wow, I think I would maybe have more of 593 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: Anna's hurt. There were more scenes of Anna's kind of 594 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: hurt and sadness in there, and I think maybe I 595 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 2: would have argued for them to stay in just because 596 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 2: it's so harrowing, and there might be responses that Anna 597 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: had that I would probably make a bit more complex now, 598 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 2: but I'm not really sure yet. Ask me in a year. 599 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll do a part two in another year, please. 600 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: There's an element that I found really chilling, and it 601 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: was the duality of experience, and we kind of touched 602 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: on it earlier when we talked about memory, but this 603 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: is slightly different because you are really saying that you 604 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: can both be the victim and the villain in a story, 605 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: depending on who's telling it. 606 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: It's all about the way that each character is justifying 607 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 2: their own actions to themselves, seeing themselves as victims, but 608 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 2: the readecease something else, and we see them as villains 609 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 2: and making bad decisions. And that shift between those two 610 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 2: sort of experiences I think is where some of the 611 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: like the texture of the book lives, but also some 612 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: of the frustration and contradiction. 613 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: I have a process question for you here, and I'm 614 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 1: going to preface it with this. When I was working 615 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: in news years ago. I had a boss who said 616 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: to me, before you cover anything, you have to ask 617 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: yourself three questions. The first is who writes the stories, 618 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: who benefits from the stories, and who's missing from the stories? 619 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: And now, when I jump into something, I always have 620 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: those questions in my mind. Not all of them apply 621 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: all the time, but I think it's a nice rubric. 622 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: When you are trying to write the duality of these characters? 623 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: Did you have a rubric? Were there certain questions that 624 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: you asked yourself in order to get the villain and 625 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: the victim out of this one person? 626 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 2: I would say that you are always really guided by 627 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 2: the unreconcilable questions. So what would you do if that 628 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 2: happened to you? You know, what would you do if 629 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: your adult daughter decided to testify against you in court? 630 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 2: You know? Those are the questions that keep you coming back. 631 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: So it was more the questions that I myself personally 632 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 2: didn't quite know the answers to you, and that I 633 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 2: wanted to explore. Those are the questions I kept coming 634 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 2: back to. 635 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: That makes so much sense. Okay, this is a little 636 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: bit of a spoiler. It's a small one. So if 637 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: you haven't read the book, Turn this off, but this 638 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: book ends on a bit of a cliffhanger, and I 639 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: want to know from you, someone who has spent so 640 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: much time with these characters, what do you think happens 641 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: to Mary and Anna. 642 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,479 Speaker 2: I think there are so many different ways the story 643 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 2: could go. What we see is Anna still writing about 644 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 2: her family feud in public, but we also see Mary 645 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 2: living apart from Gene now, and I really believe that 646 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 2: she wouldn't have stayed around after everything that she witnessed. 647 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: So I definitely think Mary moves away. I don't think 648 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 2: that she's fully like back in society in a kind 649 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 2: of fully healthy way, but I do think that she 650 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: separated herself from Gene. I kind of see a world 651 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 2: where she tentatively makes inroads into her relationship with Anna again, 652 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: but I don't think that there will ever be obviously 653 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: the same, and I think Mary will be changed forever 654 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: by her relationship with Jane. Like we all are impacted 655 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 2: by devastating relationships that end. You know, what Mary goes 656 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: through is totally horrific, So I think that Anna will 657 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 2: still play her public card. I think that Mary will 658 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: learn to forgive those aspects of her. I was thinking 659 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 2: about this, So it's like, maybe Gus should just have 660 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 2: some really good therapy and maybe she could sort of 661 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 2: see the error of some of her patterns. 662 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: And I was just gonna ask you because likes there's 663 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: a possibility that she becomes Gene two point zero, but 664 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: it sounds like you feel like she's headed in a 665 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: better direction. 666 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 2: I think Gus is headed in a better direction. But 667 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 2: I do think she will always be searching for those 668 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 2: types of relationships. I also think someone like Jeane will 669 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 2: always do what she does, Like, I don't think that 670 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 2: someone like Jeane who gets off on power, who has 671 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 2: that level of charisma, somehow you don't just switch that off. 672 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 2: So I was kind of imagining a world like God, 673 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 2: what would happen is say, you know, as is now 674 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 2: the case in the UK, you know, coercive manipulation actually 675 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: is a criminal offense. It's very difficult to kind of prosecute. 676 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 2: Imagining a world where Gene went to prison, She'd still 677 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 2: find followers, she'd still find people to chat to. You know, 678 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 2: she would never stop. So I do see worlds and 679 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 2: worlds where someone like Gene will just operate like that 680 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 2: till till the end of her life. 681 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,439 Speaker 1: Okay, Philip. One of my favorite parts of the show 682 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 1: is called speed Read, and I love hearing people's answers 683 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: to these questions. We're gonna put sixty seconds on the 684 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: clock and see how many rapid fire literary questions you 685 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: can get through. I have a feeling you're going to 686 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: be really good at this. The pressure, well you get 687 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: quick recall. Okay, three, two one. What's one literary trope 688 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: you would ban forever. 689 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 2: Male British writers who use the word punties. I'm blushing. 690 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: I love that answer. 691 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 2: That could be the best answer ever. 692 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 1: Okay. One that you'll defend with your life. 693 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 2: The kind of shadowy person that comes into your life 694 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 2: and tells you truths about it, the freaky person that 695 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 2: turns up in office truth. M hmm. 696 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: What's at the top of your TBR pile right now? 697 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 2: Aaron Dotty Roy's memoir Mother Mary. It comes to me. 698 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 1: What's at the top of Gus's TBR pile right now? 699 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: Oh? My goodness. She is going to be reading some uh, 700 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: she's going to be reading some self help. I don't 701 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 2: know who she'll be reading, but she'll be reading some 702 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:16,399 Speaker 2: self help. 703 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,760 Speaker 1: I'll be with her. Okay, what's your favorite book to recommend? 704 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 2: I always buy Brother of the more Famous Jack by 705 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 2: Barbara Trapido, which is set in Rome. It's a much 706 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 2: lighter and brilliant, more brilliant read than mine. It's phenomenal. 707 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: If you know, you know, what book do you wish 708 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: you could read again for the first time? 709 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 2: Something like Wathering Heights. Something like Wathering Heights. I think 710 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: just for the vibe, just the vibe of it. 711 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: You're a mood reader. Book are you excited to read 712 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: with your son? 713 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 2: Oh? A book called Dogga Y Shirley Hughes. But I'm 714 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 2: actually about to burst into tears. It's out a boy 715 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 2: that loses his toy dog, but he gets it at 716 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 2: the end, and the opposite thing happened to me. I 717 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 2: lost my toy dog forever. So I've got trauma here. 718 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 2: But yeah, Hughes to try and rewrite that trauma. 719 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: What book shaped the way that you see the world? 720 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,439 Speaker 2: Probably something like The Secret History. She creates that whole 721 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,359 Speaker 2: genre of like dark academia, and she's such a like originator. 722 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 2: She shaped the way I see the world and the 723 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 2: way I see writing and fiction. 724 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: So yeah, in the spirit of being the February. Pick 725 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: what is your favorite love story? Can be toxic or 726 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: non toxic. 727 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it will be Oh my god. Birthday 728 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 2: Letters by Ted Hughes collection of poems about Sylvia Plath 729 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 2: and charting their courtship. It's brutal and beautiful and astonishing 730 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 2: and I can't get over it still. 731 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: I love reading other people's love letters so much. I 732 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: can can't wait to get that one. Thank you, love it, Philip. 733 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time, your insight, and 734 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: honestly the complexity. It's so cool to read about all 735 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: of these characters and see the best and worst parts 736 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: of yourself in them. And I hope, based on our 737 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: last conversation a few weeks ago, that you are having 738 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: so much lobster and vodka and really celebrating. Actually, you 739 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: can't have vodka yet, but I hope once your son 740 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: is born that you have lots of lobster and vodka. 741 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 742 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: If you want a little bit more from us, come 743 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's book Club 744 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: on Instagram, serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes magic. 745 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: And I'm Danielle robe ro Bay. Come say hi and 746 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: dm me and if you want to go nineties on us, 747 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 1: you can call us. Okay, so our phone line is open, 748 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: So call us now at five zero one two nine 749 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: one three three seven nine. That's five zero one two 750 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,760 Speaker 1: nine one three three seven nine. Share your literary hot takes, 751 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: your book recommendations, who would please share those? And questions 752 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: about the monthly pick, or just let us know what 753 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 1: you think about the episode you've just heard, and who knows, 754 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: you might just hear yourself in our next episode, So 755 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: don't be shy, give us a ring, and of course 756 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: make sure to follow Bookmarked by Reese's book Club on 757 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your 758 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,800 Speaker 1: shows until then, see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked 759 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: is a production of Hello, Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. It's 760 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and Me Danielle Robe. Production 761 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: is by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Matty Foley, 762 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: Brittany Martinez and Sarah Schleid. Our production assistant is Avery Loftis, 763 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder are the executive producers for 764 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: a Cast Creative Studios. Maureen Poe, Hello and Reese Witherspoon 765 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: are the executive producers for Hello, Sunshine, Olga, COMINWHA. Sarah Kernerman, 766 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: Kristin Perla and Ashley Rappaport are associate producers for Reese's 767 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,800 Speaker 1: book Club. Ali Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive 768 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: producers for iHeart Podcasts.