1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And this is the first of a 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: two part episode that we are doing on Lady Detectives 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: on television because when we did our past episodes not 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: too long ago on the Golden Girls and Women of 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: a Certain Age, we heard from listeners about women of 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: a certain age who are also crime solvers. That's right, 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: a whole other TV genre with which I don't know. 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm I'm pretty familiar. I grew up watching all sorts 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: of amazing lady crime fighter shows with my mother Caroline, 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: and I learned that we both have a shared love 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: for Jessica Fletcher of Murder she wrote, hence the title 14 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: of this podcast, Murder she watched. Yeah, she Jessica Fletcher 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: both fierce and comforting. Yeah, and she also rides her 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: bike around. She's got pretty cool style. I mean, honestly, today, 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: if you wore what JB. Fletcher wears you you'd fit 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: right into maybe a cool party, right Norm Corman whatever 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: that is with those big glasses. But we ended up 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: making this a two parter, not only because this you 21 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: could just call this our our Christmas present to you 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: or whatever holiday you choose to celebrate. But also because 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: once we started we're searching women detectives, this whole TV 24 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: genre and just really focusing in on TV on the 25 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: small screen, we uncovered so much information. Yeah. There, it's 26 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: it's not just about the women who were on television, 27 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: who were starring in these shows. It's about where they 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: came from. I mean, these lady detective characters have a 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: long and amazing history um of coming up through literature, 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: and then when they transition over to the small screen, 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting to see how they develop through the seventies, eighties, 32 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: nineties and into today. Now that I sound like a 33 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: radio announcer, but there's also so much to talk about 34 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: in terms of femininity and masculinity in these shows. About 35 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: sexual violence, uh, the issue of uh you know, two 36 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: shows like s View use rape as entertainment. There's just 37 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: it's it's more than just talking about Jessica Fletcher. Although 38 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: we could have just made this about Jessica Fletcher, because 39 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: lord noth Caroline and I could just rip on and 40 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: on about her and her adventures in CatCo. But we 41 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: are also focusing in on TV because it's women crime 42 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: solvers in this particular genre who are the ones making 43 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: these really significant milestones in terms of actually seeing women 44 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 1: in lead roles on television. But long before Law and 45 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: Order spew came around and Riska Harget stole all of 46 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: our hearts, for sure, we need to mention where fictional 47 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: women detectives get their start. And before we dive into this, 48 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: I will say that I would love to do a 49 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: follow up podcast at some point on women detectives in literature, 50 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: because that is where they come from. But in this episode, 51 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: we're going to talk mostly about TV, but first we 52 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: have to talk about the women in the books. Yeah, 53 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: so this is coming from a great article in the 54 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: Telegraph back in November of um but the history of 55 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: fictional lady detectives goes all the way back to the 56 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: eighteen sixties when we see the first books featuring professional 57 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: not just amateur but professional female detectives as the heroine. 58 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: And these two that were about to mention remained the 59 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: only such books for about twenty years. Yeah, there was 60 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: sort of a proto a sleuth character who popped up 61 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: in eighteen forty one and Catherine Cruz The Adventures of 62 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: Susan Hopley. But like you said, it wasn't until the 63 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: eighteen sixties that we have actual female detectives. So William 64 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: Stephen Hayward publishes The Revelations of a Lady Detective, which 65 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: could also just be the title of his podcast, which 66 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: featured the main character, a widowed Mrs Pascal who has 67 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: featured smoking on the cover is um and around the 68 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: same time, Andrew Forrester published The Female Detective, which featured 69 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: Miss Gladden as the main character. And whereas Ms Gladden 70 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: doesn't reveal much about herself, she she tends to blend 71 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: in with her environment to observe she works independently and 72 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: for the police. The smoking and widowed Mrs Pascal character, 73 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: she has more of an adventurous spirit. She serves as 74 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: an undercover agent for the police and she also investigates 75 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: her own cases. Miss Pascal is very busy and she's 76 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: just constantly smoking or although I would like to think 77 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: of Miss Pascal she's ever revived in you know, like 78 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: a twenty first century adaptation, she'd definitely be vaping. Yeah, 79 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: But unlike Ms Gladden, she does reveal a lot about 80 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: herself and has a sense of adventure in her own 81 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: words from the book quote, owing to frequent acquaintance with peril, 82 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: I have become unusually hardened for a woman. Although I 83 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: think that also might have to do with the smoking. Yeah. Yeah, 84 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: that that literally is hardening your your blood vessels, they 85 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: could be that, um but yeah. This A lot of 86 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,119 Speaker 1: these insights too, are coming from Mike Ashley, who wrote 87 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: an introduction to the new edition of Revelations of a 88 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: Lady Detective. These books, which were put down the eighteen sixties, 89 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: sort of, I mean, they were popular people like the 90 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: tradition of like Penny Dreadfuls and things like that, but 91 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: they did sort of disappear. It's not like we have 92 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: constant editions of books like this like we do with 93 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: like Charles Dickens books or whatever. Um. And so it 94 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: was sort of a big deal when these books got reissued. 95 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: But Ashley actually refers to Mrs Pascal as the forerunner 96 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: to both m Appeal and Sherlock Holmes. And the inspirations 97 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 1: for these books are also pretty interesting because the female detective, 98 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: Miss Gladden's book, written by Andrew Forrester, came about because 99 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: of Forrester's interest in true crime, whereas Revelations of a 100 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: Lady Detective. Miss Pascal's book was really more of a 101 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: continuation of the Penny Dreadful tradition quote, as Mike Ashley wrote, 102 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: showing that women have every bit as much true grit 103 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: as their male counterparts. And I will say that's something 104 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: that we see continue on through these female detectives on 105 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: TV that we're going to talk about as well. Yeah, exactly. 106 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: And going back to that quote about Mrs Pascal calling 107 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: herself unusually hardened for a woman, that's another trend as 108 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: far as like questioning whether female detective characters are just 109 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: being kind of squished into a male role and made 110 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: to fit that mold, or whether they're functioning as just 111 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: their own type of investigative lady character. But so in 112 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties, just to give you some context, this 113 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: is when Sherlock Holmes debuts and on the coat tails 114 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: of Homes we see a lot of a lot more 115 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: lady detective characters coming out, women like my favorite Mrs 116 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: Julia Herlock shows, I wonder who inspired her? I can't, 117 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: I can't put my finger on it. Shows. Well, there's 118 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: also Miss Hilda Wade, Lady Molly d Mazarine and Florence Cusack, 119 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: who I would like to think is the fictional ancestor 120 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: of Joan and John Cusack. I hope so um. But 121 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: when we move into the twentieth century, around the same 122 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: time in the late twenties early thirties, we get Agatha 123 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: Christie's mystery novels and also Nancy Drew. But it was 124 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: in that Agatha Christie creates the Miss Marble character, who 125 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: is a spinster ish amateur detective. She doesn't have children 126 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: of her own. She kind of functions under this guy's 127 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: of Oh, I'm just a gentle spin street grandmother, just 128 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: sitting here knitting, but also solving cry right because she's 129 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: she might be quiet, and she might fade into the 130 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: background because people tend to not notice older people around us. 131 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: But that means that she can observe all sorts of 132 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: things we might not observe. That's right. And so as 133 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: we make the transition to TV, it was in nineteen 134 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: fifty six that Miss Marple became a TV character for 135 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: the first time, and it was actually here in the 136 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: u s she was played by Gracie Fields. And then 137 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: we see like a crossover here or what will be 138 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: a crossover in Night, Angela Lansbury portrays Miss Marple, and 139 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 1: of course this character eventually inspires Jessica Fletcher of murder, 140 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: she wrote, who is played by Angela Landsbury. Yeah, and 141 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: then from Joan Hickson stars in the BBC series of 142 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: Miss Marple and she's usually considered everybody's favorite Miss Marple. 143 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: But speaking of Miss Marple and Jessica Fletcher, another theme 144 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: that you'll see too as you really start to focus 145 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: in on this very particular kind of detective character, the 146 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: female detective, is that they usually are rather spinster ish. 147 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: They're often you know, they often have no children. They 148 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: might have a romance on the side maybe, but usually 149 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: they're single. They're kind of you know, these islands unto themselves. 150 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean when you look back at Mrs 151 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: p Scale, for instance, So she's a middle aged widow 152 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: and she smokes, uh, And I think that goes along 153 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: with the whole thing of like, all right, if you're 154 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: putting a woman in a non feminine, non traditionally female role, 155 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: you know, she's already transgressing gender norms and social rules 156 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: and stuff like. It wouldn't make sense almost in that 157 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: time period to make her a married mother, for instance, 158 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: because well, that's her role, that's her life. She's a 159 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: married mother, she's a wife and mother raising her children. 160 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: Whereas oh, well, a widow with no kids who's smoking. 161 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: Just I mean, I just love the imagery. People were like, 162 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: oh my god, she's smoking on the cover. Um, you know, 163 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: she's already transgressing all of these norms, so she might 164 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: as well be a detective having all sorts of adventures. Yeah. 165 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: By not giving her that domestic familial role, she actually 166 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: has time to be a sleuth. All right. And now 167 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: that we've given you this super amazing and colorful look 168 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: at Victorian lady detectives in literature, we're gonna take a 169 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: quick break and we come back. We'll get into how 170 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: the second waivers of second wave feminism helps spawn a 171 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: whole new generation of lady crime fighters, but this time 172 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: on television. And now back to the show. We are 173 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: now going to move out of literature and into television 174 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: because there is so much to cover, and when you 175 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: look at the history of women in American television, we 176 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: are going to focus a lot on US TV. It's 177 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: really women, female detectives who are breaking some of the 178 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: glass ceilings. So, for instance, in N seven, the show 179 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: Decoy starring Beverly Garland as undercover cop Casey Jones, premiers 180 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: and I did not realize this before researching for this podcast, Caroline, 181 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: this was the first woman in the history of US 182 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: television to start in the title role of a full 183 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: season dramatic series. And to put that in some context, 184 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: and how huge of a deal that's still is. Between 185 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: ninety and out of five d fifty five dramatic primetime series, 186 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: just thirty six of them starred a woman. Interesting, Yeah, 187 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: and it was the female detective, the undercover cop who 188 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: broke the mold. Well, I mean, I think what you're 189 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: saying to me, what I'm hearing is the exact same 190 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: thing that we just talked about with Mrs Pascal's character about, Well, 191 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: if we're going to break boundaries by putting a woman 192 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: in a starring role on TV, she might as well 193 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: be in a role that we're you know, it's just 194 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: so outside of the female norm. But by making a 195 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: lot of these, especially earlier characters more undercover than straight 196 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: p i or detectives, that also lends itself to allowing 197 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: her to wear more feminine costumes and say, just a 198 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: straight cop Unicorn or the trench Coat and Fedora. Yes, 199 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: so she can still function as very feminine in a 200 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: role that is not feminine traditionally. So let's look first 201 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: if we're going chronologically at Diana Rigg, who start in 202 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: The Avengers as m appeal and that show aired from 203 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: sixty nine. It's something I had no idea about. I 204 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: literally had never thought about before reading this, but all 205 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: of a sudden, it makes so much sense that I'm 206 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: never gonna unhear this. Emma appeals name came about a 207 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: shorthand literally, this is not a joke for man appeal. 208 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: They they wanted so badly to maintain the feminine, to 209 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: maintain to have this woman in an exciting, adventurous role 210 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: but also be super feminine and hot and all that stuff. 211 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: They wanted her to have a lot of man appeal. 212 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: So they started out by naming her Samantha Peel I'm 213 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: not kidding, and shortened it to manth Apeel. So it 214 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: sounds like, yeah, well then that was just awkward, right 215 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: because whose name Mantha Antha? No? I don't, Yeah, No 216 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: offense is Samantha's listening to go by Mantha? Although probably 217 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: there are none of you. Yeah, probably not. Well, so 218 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: they eventually abbreviated it as the letter M period appeal, 219 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: so man appeal they shortened it to that way. But 220 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: then the more they said m appeal, M appeal, that 221 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: makes more sense. We get him appeal. That is so 222 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: much effort to go to. Yeah, no kidding, who thinks 223 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: about that? I mean, talk about some subliminal messaging. But 224 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: that's such a great example too of how not only 225 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: do we have second wave feminism starting to creep in, 226 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: but this is also in the context of you know, 227 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: Cold War era. We're really interested and fascinated by um 228 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: spy movies and novels and James Bond and undercover espionage happening. 229 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: So m appeal really fits all of those things. Yeah. Well, 230 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: so then we have Anne Francis in the show Honeyweb 231 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: from nineteen sixty five to sixty six, and her character 232 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: was really envisioned as a cross between the hardened male 233 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: detective character Trope and Marilyn Monroe. And she had a 234 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: pet awful lot. Oh I know that in the show? 235 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: Are in really in the show? Yeah? She was a 236 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: swanky dame and she was inspired initially by Pussy Galore 237 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: in the double oh seven movies, I see. Al right. Well, 238 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: then of course we have Peggy Lipton in Mod Squad, 239 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: which was on from sixty to seventy three, and then 240 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: a really awesome important character of Teresa Graves who start 241 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: in Get Christie Love in nineteen seventy four. I think 242 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: it was a TV movie and a series, but she 243 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: was the first African American woman to star in her 244 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: own hour long series. And this was a pretty revolutionary 245 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: role to be portraying on television because in the political 246 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: context at the time, you have Title seven of the 247 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act being enforced, which led to police departments 248 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: having to quit gender discriminating in their hiring practices and 249 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: bring more women onto their forces. And it's the same 250 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of thing that we talked about a lot in 251 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: our Fire Women Women Fireman episode. And so this was happening, 252 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of people were concerned and not happy 253 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: with female police officers being more common. They didn't think 254 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: that they could protect them as well enforced crime or 255 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: infor enforce the law as well. So that's happening in 256 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: the real world, this discomfort with women taking charge in 257 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: police uniforms. But then you also have you know, civil 258 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: rights still going on, and so to have a black 259 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: woman in this role as a cop, it was almost 260 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: too much for the mainstream white viewership to handle. So 261 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: it didn't last very long, but I mean a pretty 262 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: significant role. To remember it. I wasn't aware of the 263 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: show existed until this, although I will say, um, the 264 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: the intro to Get Christine Love is like two minutes long. 265 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: It's so long, and it's just it's it's real seventies, 266 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: is it. Teresa Graves like running around with a gun, 267 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: like peeking around corners. Yeah, And her trademark line in 268 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: it is You're under arrest, sugar. So there's that. I 269 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: love that so much. But going off of what Christy 270 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: was talking about, with more and more women being recruited 271 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: for police forces during this time, we have to talk 272 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: about Angie Dickinson, who started in Police Woman from nine 273 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: to seventy eight, and in one source that we were 274 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,239 Speaker 1: looking at talking about this show in particular, Dickinson was 275 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: saying how flattered she was that there was this spike 276 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: in women joining police forces after her show premiered, so 277 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: she didn't necessarily take into account the fact that there 278 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: were a lot of other political and social things going 279 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: on at the time, correlation causation, exactly perfect example. But 280 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: so Angie Dickinson's character and police Woman was of course, 281 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: she's very fashionable, she's very beautiful, she has great hair, 282 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. But she has actually said since 283 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: then that she felt very exploited during the filming of 284 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: the show, particularly because of things like shower scenes that 285 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, why do you need a shower scene? But anyway, 286 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: she said that she was. She's actually very glad to 287 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: see how the genre has evolved since then. Well, and 288 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: hers is another example of how she was often in 289 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: undercover roles that would require her to be in a 290 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: bikini or in a sexy evening gown or some kind 291 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: of highly you know, feminine and attractive outfit. And it's 292 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: notable too. This was something that we were reading about 293 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: in this book Hard Boiled and High Healed all about 294 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: fictional women detectives, about how Teresa Graves and Angie Dickinson, 295 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, both launched their lady detective series at the 296 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: same time in ninety four, but Policewoman was the first 297 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: successful hour long primetime TV drama starring a woman, whereas 298 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 1: Get Christie Love lasted a season and then was canned 299 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: and in hard boiled and high heel. They think that 300 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: it is largely because of the fact that Angie Dickinson 301 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: was a blonde, white female often put in these very 302 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: like feminine costumes. It kind of made the role more palatable, 303 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: unfortunately for viewers at the time, whereas Get Christie Love 304 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: was almost two too much. Yeah, there was no HBO 305 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: around at the time that could that had the resources 306 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: to take chances on shows that were in his mainstream. 307 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: You know, like you really had to sort of cater 308 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: to cater to the viewers and pay attention to the numbers. Yeah, 309 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: and it's unfortunate that catering to the viewers meant that, 310 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, you have actresses feeling exploited because they're working 311 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: unnecessary shower scenes two shows exactly. And then coming into 312 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: the eighties, there's Betty Thomas on Hill Street Blues which 313 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: was eighty seven, Heather Locklear on t J Hooker from 314 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: a T two to eighties six, and Holly Robinson Pete 315 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 1: on twenty one Jump Street, which was airing from and 316 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: she's another one who complained about what was going on 317 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: on the show at the time. Specifically, Pete complained that 318 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: there were too many plots that relied on rape, which 319 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: is something you hear a lot of people still talking 320 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: about today, not only in terms of shows like SDU 321 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: which of course has everything to do with sexual assault, rape, 322 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: things like that, um, but but a lot of shows 323 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: out they're still sort of revolve around using rape and 324 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: sexual assault as a primary plot device. And Holly Robinson 325 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: Pete basically took issue with that. And we'll get more 326 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: into that portrayal of rape and a lot of these 327 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: shows and how that kind of intersects with the characterizations 328 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: of these fictional detectives on TV later in the podcast. 329 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: But now we have to actually step back a little 330 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: bit in our timeline to focus in on probably the 331 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: most groundbreaking TV show, prime time TV show for women 332 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: detectives on television. And it's not Charlie's Angels, sorry, folks, 333 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: Although they play a role in what we're about to 334 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: talk they do play a role. But we've got to 335 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: talk about Cagney and Lacy, which aired from to and 336 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: it's history. It's televisual history is fascinating because it, I mean, 337 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: there's there's so much. Let's I won't I won't even 338 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: preface it with anything, let's just dive in. Yeah, and 339 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: what's so great about the story of Cagney and Lacy 340 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: is the fact that it is so much a product 341 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: of its time. There is so much super fascinating social 342 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: and political history that is affecting the show. And so 343 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: this is coming from the A V. Clubs story on 344 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: Cagney and Lacy, which was a great read. But they 345 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: talked about how back in nineteen four, TV producer Barney 346 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: Rosenswig has this epiphany while he's out on a date 347 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: with a young feminist writer, Barbara Corday. They were seeing 348 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: Scent of a Woman, and Rosenswig realizes through Corday's eyes 349 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: that the female characters in the movie are totally objectified 350 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: and treated like crap, and so he encourages Babs Barbara 351 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: Barbara Corday and her writing partner Barbara Avedon to a 352 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: team of babbs is to come up with something like 353 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: to come up with their own more female empowered plot line, 354 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 1: and so they write a screenplay for Cagney and Lacey 355 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: featuring two career driven woman who caught bad guys and 356 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: fought sexism at the same time. But the project was 357 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: never made. Yeah, and so of course, you have to 358 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: take into account the context, the political and social backup 359 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: of the time. A realistic, straight forward woman led cop 360 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: show just did not appeal to network suits in the 361 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: seventies because that's too gritty, it's too unfeminine. They should 362 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: be glamorous, like Wonder Woman or like Charlie's Angels. Yeah, 363 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: Rosen's Wig actually worked on Charlie's Angels, which was created 364 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: by Aaron Spelling, and it was a huge hit, obviously, 365 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: and did open the door just enough for a more 366 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: serious show like Cagney and Lacy about two female detectives, 367 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: not necessarily running off to glamorous locales and being directed 368 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: by Um just a voice of a very wealthy man Um. 369 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: And Rosen's Wig did actually work on Charlie's Angels, which 370 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: was created by Aaron Spelling, and it was a huge hit, obviously, 371 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: and it's notable that it did feature three women with 372 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: fantastic hair. They worked together to take on evil male characters, 373 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: and so a lot of people see Charlie's Angels as 374 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: a positive example of women on television, although you could 375 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: make arguments on both sides of that, but nonetheless, Charlie's 376 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: Angels opened the door network wise just enough because it 377 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: was so successful that allowed a more serious show about 378 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: two female detectives actually working in an office, going out 379 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: on the streets fighting daily sexism that other women watching 380 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: would encounter in the real world to finally get into development. Yeah, 381 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: and so in night one, the team gets a Cagney 382 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: and Lacy made for TV movie on the air and 383 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: Rosen's wig. He must have really benefited from going on 384 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: that date with core Day back in the day, because 385 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: he ended up promoting the show to Gloria Steinem and 386 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: Miss Magazine, which then turned around and featured the show's 387 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: leads on their October one cover. Gloria Steinham was so 388 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: excited about this show to to the point where she 389 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: went on Dona Hue with one of the lead actors 390 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: is not Tyne Daily, but Loretta Swift, who will talk 391 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: about in a minute, went on Donna Hue with this 392 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: woman and they both talked about the show so earnestly, 393 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: I can't remember who was talking about, Like they talked 394 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: about it as if you're going on and talking about war. 395 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: But these two women went on and they're like, this 396 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: is an incredible show. And Gloria Stina obviously threw her 397 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: weight behind it, and it ended up attracting forty two 398 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: percent of American TVs the night it aired, which resulted 399 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: in CBS ordering six full episodes. Now, one of the 400 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: reasons though, why the TV movie Cagney and Lacy was 401 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: so popular, wasn't not only because Gloria Sign and probably 402 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: rallied a lot of female viewers and it got a 403 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: lot of press at the time, but also because Cagney, 404 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: being played opposite Tyne Daily, was being played by Loretta Switt, 405 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: who was on Mash, which was wildly popular as well. 406 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: So she brought some you know, some name cash to 407 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: do the role as well, but she had to keep 408 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: go She had to go back to MASH so she 409 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: couldn't be on the television show version of it. So 410 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: the early episodes feature Meg Foster as Cagney, whose quote 411 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: energy was considered too similar to Time Daily's hard driving 412 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: energy as Lacy, and a lot of the TV criticism 413 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: at the time really just hated Meg Foster's face. Let's 414 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: be honest, They thought that she looked too masculine, and 415 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: especially both Time Daily and Meg Foster. You can Google 416 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: image them and I recommend you do it because there 417 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: is such a shift from the look of Meg Foster 418 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: to Sharing Glass, who we would think of today as 419 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: Um Cagney. But they I think that the two of 420 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: them together in police uniforms just was a little too masculine. Yeah, 421 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: people in general, critics especially definitely thought there needed to 422 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: be a more feminine presence opposite time. Daily they were 423 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: okay with their being like one hard driving, more math skilling, 424 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: more serious character, but there needed to be some sort 425 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: of blonde, bubbly uh foil for her. And so before 426 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: we have the shift, and when Meg Foster was still 427 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: playing Cagney in one early episode, the to dress up 428 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: as prostitutes to have a bad guy as a way 429 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: of being like, hey, look they're in dresses with high heels. 430 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: They're totally feminine. Look at all this eyeshadow. There was 431 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: so much eyeshadow, so much Now, not everybody was thrilled 432 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: about Cagney and Lacey, particularly the portrayal of two women 433 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: doing police work. And we found this quote from Robert J. 434 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: Thompson's Television's Second Golden Age, and he writes, they Cagney 435 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: and Lacey were too harshly women's lib The American public 436 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: approves of women getting the same play for some jobs. 437 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: But the public doesn't respond to the bra burners, the fighters, 438 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: the women who insist on calling man hole covers people 439 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: hole covers, which side out made me felt loud when 440 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: I read it. These women on Cagney and Lacey seemed 441 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: more intent on fighting the system than doing police work. 442 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: We perceived them as insert derogatory word for lesbians. Yeah, people, Yeah, 443 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: I think people who had sort of been spoon fed 444 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: shows like a Policewoman or Charlie's Angels didn't know how 445 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: to handle mentally a show about two women who were 446 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: actually like serious police officers and detectives. But if we 447 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: look at some character notes sharing Glass, who Christian mentioned earlier, 448 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: she eventually comes on board as Cagney, and this sparks 449 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: this great chemistry that we know today as being such 450 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: a big part of Cagney and Lacy. And interestingly, Lacey's 451 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: husband tined Daily's husband, Harvey, it was really the one 452 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: domestic presence on the show. He's the one who cooked 453 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: and took care of the kids while the wife was 454 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: out running around doing police work. Yeah, she was a 455 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: full time working mom. And then Cagney was a single 456 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: woman on the show, which I'm sure was also a 457 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: rather revolutionary pairing to see as well. And one thing 458 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: we haven't mentioned is that in the process of the 459 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: show being on the air from the network tried to 460 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: cancel it two times unsuccessfully and finally then the third 461 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: time stuck. But one of the writer's notes said that 462 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: out of one under twenty five episodes quote, an amazingly 463 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: high percentage of them have women involved in the writing process, 464 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: even when compared to most dramas today, and so it's 465 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: probably part of the reason why Glorious Steinham, for instance, 466 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: wrote a cover piece for TV Guide on why Cagney 467 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: and Lacy is the best show on television. Uh. They 468 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: wanted Gloria Steinham to make a guest appearance on the 469 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: show because the plot line involved Cagney and Lacy having 470 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: to go to this Equal Rights Amendment rally, I think, 471 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: and they were going to have to actually protect a 472 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: Phillis shaff Lee type character who in real life was 473 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: this arch conservative enemy of a second wave feminism who 474 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: said with all sorts of awful things about women and 475 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: equal rights. And Uh, Steinham demured she she didn't show up. Yeah, 476 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: she didn't want to be on the show, I guess 477 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: for whatever reason. Well she did love it though, she 478 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 1: did love it, Oh, absolutely so, Caroline. We could go 479 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: on and on and on though about Cagney and Lacey, 480 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: because honestly, I had no idea up until this point 481 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: how significant this show was to this entire genre, no idea. 482 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: I had no idea about the background information about the writers, 483 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: that there were not only so many women writers, but 484 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: that the show was helmed by two incredible women. Yeah. 485 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: And to the point though, that there's even an entire 486 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: book that we have been citing devoted to this called 487 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: Defining Women Television in the case of Cagney and Lacey 488 00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: by Julie DIACEI and just that very the exist sense 489 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: of that. Once I saw that, I realized that, Wow, 490 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: there's so much more of the show than just amazing 491 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: uh you know, bo blouses academia. Man, there there's a 492 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: book out there for everything. Indeed. Um, But now it's 493 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: time for us to put a pin in our Lady 494 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: Detective conversation because we've got so much more to talk about. 495 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: But now we want to hear from listeners about their 496 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: favorite classic female detectives on television or if there were 497 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: some lady detectives from literature that they especially loved as well. 498 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: Right to us, Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 499 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: Com is our email address, and we've got a couple 500 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: of letters to share with you right now. So I've 501 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: got one here from Monica on our episode about women 502 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: and a Bola, and she writes, thank you so much 503 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: for your podcast on women and Bola and for adding 504 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: the humanity back to the debate on this horrible disease. 505 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: It was also wonderful to hear you portray the West 506 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: African women who are affected by the disease as people 507 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: with agency, women who despite the huge challenges, are making 508 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: do the best they can with limited resources. One thing 509 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: I would mention there's been a lot of talk about 510 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: West African burial rituals, as if this were some exotic 511 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: for an awful thing. It's not. The burial rituals in 512 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: question are simply the washing of the body, which is 513 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: exactly what it's done here in the US, but just 514 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: by an undertaker or another professional, so not scary, not for, 515 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: and not some sort of voodoo ritual that these silly 516 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: Africans are doing and then getting infected. Since two thousand 517 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: and eight, i've spent significant time in Sierra Leone, mostly 518 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: supporting women journalists, training them and helping them adapt new 519 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: technology to get information to those who don't have it, 520 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: generally rural women and girls. They are smart, sassy women, 521 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: not just the journalists, and they don't need an NGO 522 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: to go and preach to them. They need the information 523 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: so that they can make their own decisions on their 524 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: lives and their health. Literacy rates and Siri Leone are 525 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: about and much lower for women and girls. The vast 526 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: majority of people get their news from radios, both national 527 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: broadcasters and community radio stations, and radio has played a 528 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: very important role in getting information to the population in 529 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: times of crisis. Just another note about Sierra Leone. These 530 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: were the most fearless, resilient, and friendly people I have 531 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: ever met. Sierri Leone is a beautiful country, and I 532 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: have some close friends there who have suffered more than 533 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: anyone has ever deserved to suffer. When you mentioned pregnant 534 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: women being turned away from hospitals, that's a regular occurrence, 535 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: even in the best of times. Very very few women 536 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: give birth in hospitals. A friend of mine there delivered 537 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: a baby five weeks early. We drove her around to 538 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: every hospital in the capital, Freetown, and none of them 539 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: had a working incubator. The child died after several days, 540 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: and he was not the first baby she had lost. 541 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: As we focus on a bowl on more people are 542 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: actually dying of preventable and curable diseases in Sierra Leone, 543 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: like typhoid, malaria, and even seemingly not serious infections. Just imagine, 544 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: for instance, dealing with a U t I and having 545 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: no antibiotics. Keep up the good work, Monica, and thank 546 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: you so much Monica for your photos. She sent some 547 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: incredible photos from her time in Sierra Leone and also 548 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: offering those really important insights. Okay, I have a letter 549 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: here from Alessandra, who works with the United Nations Foundation. 550 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: She says, in light of your recent podcast Annie, Bola 551 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: and Women, I wanted to share some fascinating information. I 552 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: came across this summer from a small round table held 553 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: at the U n Foundation with a return World Health 554 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: Organization communications emergency responder who had been in Liberia for 555 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: several weeks early in the crisis. Her role in Liberia 556 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: was to assist the World Health Organization in spreading internal 557 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 1: prevention and care information within Liberia and externally reporting back 558 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: to the WHO in the world at large about the situation. 559 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: She talked about many roadblocks and trying to executor job. 560 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: For example, the difficulty with the actual delivery of their message. 561 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,959 Speaker 1: Liberious population is still staggering ly illiterate, so for many 562 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: reading the information was out of the question. As poor 563 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: education and illiteracy disproportionately affect women, I imagine that would 564 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: contribute to a higher rate of women being affected. Furthermore, 565 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: newspapers in Liberia and indeed in many parts of Africa, 566 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: do not work the same way they do in the West. There, 567 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: if you want something in the newspaper, you have to 568 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: pay to have it printed. This results in news not 569 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: being included for its merit or integrity, but for commercial gain. 570 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: The WHO, with their limited resources, has been hesitant to 571 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: enter into paying for such a corruptible information distribution source, 572 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: but scammers who falsely claim to have a cure have 573 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: been paying for such newspaper coverage. Thus, that leaves radio 574 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: as a hopeful method for disseminating information to remote villages 575 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: who are disproportionately affected by the outbreak. Even then, there's 576 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: so many local dialects that you cannot have one broadcast 577 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: that would be able to communicate with all these villages. Instead, 578 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: they use radio to intech village leaders and spokespeople and 579 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,479 Speaker 1: rely on them to educate their neighbors. Finally, she talked 580 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: about the wilful disbelief an ebola in the region. While 581 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: there are a few who think it's a conspiracy, most 582 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: people believe it exists but don't want to acknowledge it 583 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: on their doorstep. If you have a family member who 584 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: gets sick with symptoms that might be ebola, but might, 585 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: perhaps wishfully, also be malaria, many people would rather believe 586 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: that it's malaria and continue to foster hope. To admit 587 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: that it's at bola is essentially to commit your family 588 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: member to death. You are no longer able to nurse 589 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,879 Speaker 1: them or keep them as close for fear of contamination 590 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: to the whole family, and without many hospitals having room 591 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: to take in patients, you're forced to helplessly watch. As 592 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: a mother. Can you imagine admitting you have to stop 593 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: doing anything you can as the main caregiver for your child. 594 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: I just thought i'd share this inside Scoop. Thanks for 595 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: the podcast, and thank you so much. Alexandra, and thanks 596 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: everybody who's written in to us. Mom stuff at how 597 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: stuff Work dot com is our email address and for 598 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: links all of our social media as well as all 599 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including this one, and 600 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: with all of our sources so you can read along 601 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: with us, Head on over to stuff mom Never Told 602 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 603 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com