1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: What's cold My opening This is Behind the Bastards, a 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: podcast that has now introduced slightly differently. We are going 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: to talk about a little bit of history me and 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,159 Speaker 2: Margaret Killjoy, and then we're gonna throw back to the 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: start of the episode. Margaret, what do you know about Prussia? 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: How do you feel about Prussia? 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 3: I couldn't put it on a map because it doesn't 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 3: currently exist. It's one of those things that became Germany. Right, yes, 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 3: it is the center of the things that became Germany. Okay, wait, 11 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 3: and in Bavaria is like the southern part. 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: Bavaria is the southern part and the Bavarians and the Prussians. 13 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 2: Most people would now just be like, well, they're all Germans. 14 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: But for a very long time that would get you shot. 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 3: You know. 16 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 2: It was very serious and even up until like when 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: the Franco Prussian War started, there were a lot of 18 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: debates about like these you had these different army corps 19 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: that would have divisions of Prussians and divisions of Bavarians, 20 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: and the fact that we're fighting well side by side 21 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: was the huge deal. Like that's what welded Germany into being. 22 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 2: There was a lot of Prussians were like, well, Bavarians 23 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: won't stand under fire, you know, there was a lot 24 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: of debate about that, and the Prussians where it's funny, 25 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: You're like, I couldn't point it out on a map. Today, 26 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: I would guess Prussia is most often reference to when 27 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: people misspell Russia. But like for most of the last 28 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: couple of hundred years, it was a really big deal. 29 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 2: And in fact, at the end of World War Two, 30 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: one of the major Allied goals was like, we have 31 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: to put a fucking end to Prussia finally, like we 32 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: have to end this concept of Prussian militarism because it's 33 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: been it's been such a plague in Europe and we don't. 34 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 3: Again, the Bavarians are the good Germans and definitely not Germans, definitely, 35 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: definitely not. 36 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: But what I am saying is that what we now 37 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: just describe as like German right is what people used 38 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: to call Prussian right. It's all been kind of subsumed. 39 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: But like the Prussians. 40 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 3: Were and this is kind of who invaded like right 41 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: around the time of the Paris Commune, like eighteen seventy 42 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 3: one kind of era. 43 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, this is exactly that. That's what it's called 44 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 2: the Franco Prussian War because the Prussians are kind of 45 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: like the leading light in this confederation of German states 46 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: that becomes Germany as a result of the Franco Prussian War. 47 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 3: And really like invading France, they tried like three times, 48 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 3: and to be fair, like once a generation they. 49 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: Started out being invaded by France. Like when the Franco 50 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: Prussian War starts, if you read their justifications for like 51 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: why they were doing what they were doing, it's all 52 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: like they keep invading us. We have to stop the 53 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: French menace and the British like there's widespread everyone is 54 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: sympathetic to the Prussians and the other German states because 55 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, someone got to be done about France, 56 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: Like you can't let them keep bosting everybody around. 57 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's the nineteenth Century're supposed to do that 58 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 3: to other continents now, yes. 59 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 2: Yes, which the French are doing. But they especially like 60 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: under Napoleon the Third, he's like Fuson, He fucks around 61 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 2: in Italy a bunch and like eventually he goes too far. 62 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: The Prussians have this reputation for being like the great 63 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: warrior people of their age. They are the Spartans of Europe, 64 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: which the Spartans also are, but from a lot log brico. Yeah, 65 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: Prussianism forms the core of what we come to know 66 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: as Germany, and well, the Prussian nobility are often targeted 67 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: by the Nazis. These guys, these junkers is what they're called. 68 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: Wind up. A lot of them get killed by the Nazis. 69 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: It's because they hate Hitler. But not because he's Hitler, 70 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: but because he's like poor, right. They hate Hitler for 71 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: class reasons. He's like a corporal who should have known 72 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: his place, and he's trying to run the country. That's 73 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: why these junkers hate Hitler. You know, it's not like 74 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: all of the horrible crimes. It's well, but look at 75 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: the of course this war is doomed. We have a 76 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: corporal leading it, you know. 77 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, you couldn't even make He tried to make living 78 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: selling paintings. Instead of being born to money. 79 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. I was born to hold a needle rifle. 80 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: Prussian nationalism and militarism are a huge factor in the 81 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: upbringing of the kids who grew up to fight for 82 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: and lead Germany and World War Two. So again it's 83 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: one of those things, like Schreber, did he cause the Nazis? 84 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: Is he just like one of you know, a number 85 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: of people who had similarly authoritarian ideas. And Prussianism is 86 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: both an opponent of the Nazis when the Nazis are 87 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 2: actually in place, like a lot of Prussians or opponents 88 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: of the Nazis, and it's also foundational to what we 89 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: recognize as Nazism. A lot of these attitudes that Prussianism 90 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 2: inculcates and broader in all of these German territories. And 91 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: one of the things about Prussianism is that it is 92 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 2: an extremely patriarchal system. Right, you have your king, you know, 93 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: this comes to be the Kaiser. He is the absolute 94 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: ruler of the country. You know, it doesn't fully work 95 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: out that way, but that's the idea. And likewise, the 96 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: father is the absolute ruler of the household. You know, yeah, 97 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: like that's how it is supposed to work. A lot 98 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: of these ideas are descended from how Romans did things 99 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 2: right in ancient Rome, the patriarch of the family, your dad, 100 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: as long as he was alive, you were legally child, 101 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: he could It's not a thing that often happened, but 102 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 2: he could execute you your whole life. He had that freedom, 103 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: that was a legal thing in Roman society. I didn't 104 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: know that it kept going. I assumed that his ability 105 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 2: to kill everyone he's related to stopped when those people 106 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: turned eighteen. No, absolutely not. You think Rome would be 107 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: that way. 108 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 3: No, Rome, brutal. 109 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: Rome never stopped at the point they should have stopped. 110 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: That's what made them Rome. Ah. Welcome to Behind the Bastards, 111 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: a podcast with Margaret Killjoy about why the Germans be 112 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: like they do. Margaret host of cool people who did 113 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: cool stuff. 114 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: So good, Robert, thank you, thank you. 115 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: We're talking about Prussianism just at the start of this episode. Again, 116 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 2: this is an episode about a mom fluencer, the Nazi 117 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: mom fluencer. But I do kind of feel like if 118 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: we're talking about all these ideas about like how kids 119 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: should be raised, that factor in the Nazis and that, 120 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: you know, in the post Nazi era, if we don't 121 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: say anything about Prussianism, we've kind of fucked up. So 122 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: I felt like we had to a little bit and 123 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 2: to give you an idea of like how patriarchal this 124 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: was not in the way that the patriarchy gets talked 125 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: about today. It's not that people mean a different thing, 126 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: but they aren't talking about the exact same thing, right, 127 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: They're talking about all these embedded attitudes of like masculine 128 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: superiority and whatnot in pop culture, in the structure of 129 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: our government and the structure of our society, and all 130 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: of the ways in which that's harmful to both women 131 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: and men. When I say that Prussian society was patriarchal, 132 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. I interviewed a Prussian, elderly 133 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: Prussian man once. His grandfather was one of these Prussian 134 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: yunkers who was murdered by the Nazis, and he grew 135 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: up in the early nineteen hundreds and told me that 136 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 2: at family breakfasts, their regular ritual was everyone would gather 137 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: around the table and watch his father eat a single egg, 138 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: the only egg that their family could afford that day. Right, 139 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: everyone had to watch him eat it. 140 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 3: Right. 141 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: This was like, in a way, kind of this expression 142 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: of these ideas that like, hey, you have the kaiser 143 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: is the absolute center and head of this nation, and 144 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: the father is the absolute despot of his family. Right, 145 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: And this is a version of this. After the Kaiser 146 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: goes away and you have these chaotic Weimar years where 147 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: things are very progressive and men A lot of the 148 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: men who become Nazis feel emasculated, right, And part of 149 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: why they feel emasculated is that it is chaotic. Jobs 150 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: are not as reliable, it's harder to provide for your family. 151 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: Then the promise the Nazis make is that, well, we 152 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: will bring back a world in which you, as the man, 153 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: can be the absolute dictator of your home if you 154 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: follow our furor as the absolute dictator of this nation. 155 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: That is one of the very alluring promises of Nazism. 156 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 3: I don't like the how naturally this relates to the 157 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: things that are happening now and the way that the 158 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: far right is talking about feeling emasculated by Nope, no, 159 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 3: I don't like that. Could you change history a little 160 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 3: bit so that the Nazis are a little more different 161 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 3: than a modern American right wing so I feel a 162 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 3: little safer. 163 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: You see. I think that is the mistake people often 164 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: make when they talk about figures like Schreber, who we 165 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: just talked about and the lady who were talking about today, 166 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: is they focused too much on them in order to 167 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: talk about how the Germans were different, to allow the Nazis, 168 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: and I do think it's important to talk about stuff 169 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 2: like this, to be like, well, yeah, this is part 170 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: of the appeal. Is this this shit that is both 171 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: very Prussian but also very all the time everywhere. 172 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: You know, no one wants to be a tradwife anymore. 173 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: Why can't we just have more tradwives? Why aren't people 174 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: having more children? Let's just bring back America being great, 175 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 3: It'll be great. 176 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. So it's kind of ironic 177 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 2: due to the fact that, like you know, the Nazis 178 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: are such a patriarchal movement that they are kind of 179 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: so obsessed with these ideas of traditional gender roles that 180 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 2: the most influential expert on child wearing of the Nazi 181 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: era was the walking embodiment of female empowerment in that age. 182 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 2: Her name was Joanna Horror born Joanna barsh on October third, 183 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: nineteen hundred in Bodenbach. Joanna's life began when doctor Schreber 184 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: was the most influential name in German scientific child rearing practices. 185 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: Her work would owe a great deal to the foundations 186 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: that he established. Like most stories of people born in 187 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: nineteen hundred, reading about Joanna's life and family reminds us 188 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: that dying in a World war was often preferable to 189 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: living in Europe back then. Her mother this is so 190 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 2: fucked up. Her mother is Czech, which is like the 191 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: family shame because not only is her mother not properly German, 192 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: but she's born at Joanna's born out of wedlock, right, 193 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: so she is ostracized and isolated from her community. As 194 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: a little girl, Joanna still bore the stigma of this 195 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: terrible shame and recalled later to her daughter that when 196 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: her mom came out to her father as pregnant, her 197 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: father beat her nearly to death, like this is the 198 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 2: culture of the time, right, this is it is not 199 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: weird that this happens to her. Her father's parents died 200 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: when he was ten years old, so on the upside, 201 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: there was no one to beat him when he has 202 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: a kid out of weblock. The downside is that he 203 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: has to leave high school as soon as he gets 204 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: her mom pregnant to raise his new child, and he 205 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: is isolated from the rest of his family as a 206 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: result of the shame that this causes. His granddaughter, Joanna's 207 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: daughter later claimed in his apprenticeship he had to carry 208 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: heavy loads and got a hump. He and my grandmother 209 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: ran a stationary shop. Because of his disability and poor education, 210 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: my grandfather felt like an underdog, developed strong anti semitism 211 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: and fled to alcohol. So Joanna's father passed his anti 212 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,119 Speaker 2: semitism and his alcoholism onto her, which is not abnormal. 213 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: What is abnormal is that he also passed on his 214 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: obsessive feeling that he should have done better in his life. 215 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: And this is where this guy is kind of like, 216 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: he's not you expect. Okay, You've got this story about 217 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: a woman who becomes very accomplished and powerful. Her dad 218 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: is angry that he doesn't succeed as much as he 219 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: feels like he should. He becomes an alcoholic. He's like 220 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 2: a drunk and by our standards, abusive, But at the 221 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: same time he is also The way his abuse manifest 222 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: is he pushes Joanna to excel. He wants her to 223 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 2: achieve the things that he couldn't, which is so different 224 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: from how you expect this story to go. Yeah, although 225 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: since you've told me about Schreber, it kind of makes sense, 226 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, Oh, I have a hunchback, so that's 227 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: why I'm gonna strap a two by four year back 228 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 2: for his entire life, right right, And in this case, 229 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: he's like, I never got to be anything because I 230 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: had to, you know, be the man of the family 231 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: from such a young age. But by God, you're going 232 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: to make something of yourself now. Some of his obsession 233 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: with this comes down to the fact that her brother 234 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: and her brother's two years older than her, dies horrifically 235 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: of meningitis when Joanna is eight. Joanna never really writes 236 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: about her older brother's death, and when she does, she 237 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: describes it clinically, without mourning or signs of pain. She 238 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 2: claims his death inspired her to study medicine, but in 239 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: a way that sort of suggests she was more fascinated 240 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: by the symptoms of his illness than motivated by a 241 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: wish to have saved him, which is very very much 242 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: the person she is. She is not a oh, if 243 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: only I could have saved my beloved brother. She is 244 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: a oh the way that he's dying is very interesting. 245 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: I need to study this more. She's a creepy kid. 246 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't want to know what happens in 247 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 3: the neighborhood cats when she lives there. 248 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: You know, she might have been torturing some cats. Well, 249 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: never know, but it like, given the path this late 250 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 2: and what her kids say about her, I'm going to 251 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: say forty percent chance she was torturing some animals. Okay, 252 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: not bad, not a low odd So losing a sibling 253 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: or a child was not an uncommon experience in Germany 254 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: during this period. At the start of the twentieth century, 255 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: Germany had one of the highest infant mortality rates in Europe. 256 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: This is why under the Kaiser it developed the first 257 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: European national institution dedicated to lowering infant mortality. As a result, 258 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: so one of the things that's happening during especially in 259 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 2: the Weimar period, it starts under the Kaiser. But during Weimar, 260 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 2: this attitude of like scientists are meddling in the way 261 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 2: we're treating we're raising our children kind of becomes chronic 262 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: along the right. And the reason is that, like and 263 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 2: again this isn't a progressive thing. It starts under the Kaiser, 264 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: but it's because German kids die all the time. 265 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 3: They're like, we have a problem, we have to fix it. 266 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 3: Let's apply the scientific method. But it's the early twentieth century, 267 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 3: so the scientific method has more to do with like 268 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: Frankenstein and doctor Jack almoster Hyde than. 269 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it's both a mix of a lot of 270 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 2: what the scientists are saying isn't right, and when it is, 271 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 2: it pisses off these people who have these contra ideas 272 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: of like how you should treat children that are pretty brutal. 273 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: And that's going to be part of what gives Joanna 274 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: a career is the fact that there are people angry 275 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 2: at all these doctors meddling and parents. 276 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: Oh my god, So she is like, oh, she's like 277 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 3: anti vax fucking yes. 278 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: Cool. 279 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: Well I don't think she's literally it. She is a doctor. 280 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 3: She's equivalent of the modern anti vax if like, yeah, yes. 281 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: Now, Joanna's own mother. She's very close to her father. 282 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: Her mother is absent most of her childhood, and she 283 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: will describe later that being deprived of her mother's love 284 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: devastates her. Quote nothing could comfort me. She clung to 285 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: her father, even though he was a wreck an alcoholic 286 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: who drowned his sorrow at bars. He dragged her to 287 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: and from Her earliest memories involved walking with quote my 288 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: swaying father, who smelled of beer and held me by 289 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: the hand as I walked through the Bodenbox streets. My 290 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: shame was limitless. But while she expresses shame at her father, 291 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: Alois barsh he also pushed his daughter to lean into 292 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: her ambitions, which were basically unique in her area and time. 293 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: She wanted to be a doctor. Now there were women 294 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: doctors at this point, obviously in many countries, but they 295 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: were not common. And the boarding school that she gets 296 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: into to prepare her for medical school is an all 297 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: boys school. Her father this is like such a mix 298 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: of inspiring and fucked up. Her father picks this all 299 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 2: boys school for her because it's the best school he 300 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: can find that doesn't allow Jews. The so you've got like, oh, 301 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: what a piece of shit. But then he goes to 302 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: the school and is like, you won't admit girls, wait 303 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: till you meet my daughter. And he introduces Joanna to 304 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: the director of the school, who like has a brief 305 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: conversation with her and says, we'll try it, We'll take her, 306 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: you know, Like he's so, I like it's this. It's 307 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: such a weird mix of like the most like feminist 308 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: story of fatherhood from nineteen sixteen Germany with also like 309 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: in the school Camdem and he choosing it. 310 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 3: This is such a like I mean, this is the 311 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 3: classic bastard set up? Is that? Like? I almost because 312 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: this could be the origin story of a Mari of 313 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 3: a lice. Yes, you know, like against the odds and 314 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: her and even that her like father like cared even 315 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 3: though he was an embarrassing failure of a drum. 316 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: That this was a complicated man. He you know, he 317 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: dealt with all these challenges, but he focused so much 318 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: on her. But which is and all of that's true? 319 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: He was also a raging anti Semite. Yeah, and so 320 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: she becomes a Nazi. Yeah, So the first challenge that 321 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: she faces is that. And again this goes into like 322 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: the hero narrative here. Prior to joining this boarding school, 323 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: because she was a girl, she had not been given 324 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: any formal mathematics training. So when she starts school she 325 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: has to make up for six years of lost time, 326 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: and her first year at boarding school, she develops a 327 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: habit of waking up at four am every morning just 328 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: to study in order to like make it through this curriculum. 329 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: She's excellent at this. She is very smart. She does 330 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: very well in school. She graduates in nineteen twenty, right 331 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 2: after World War One ends, and she is the only 332 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: girl at this school schlosh Bieberstein. 333 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: Right. 334 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: Her performance is good enough that she is admitted to 335 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: the University of Heidelberg and eventually to Gotingen and Munich 336 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: as well, and she becomes a pulmonologist. She's a lung doctor. 337 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: Okay. 338 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: She receives a license to practice medicine in nineteen twenty six, 339 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: and again not unique, but very rare and very rare 340 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 2: that she goes about it in this way. Two years earlier, 341 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 2: she had met her first husband, Helmut Wis, a pharmaceutical 342 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: researcher who they It's kind of unclear exactly what happened. 343 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 2: One story, I think, the story Joanna gave is that 344 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: he cheated on her and had a child out of wedlock. 345 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 2: It's not fully clear to me what goes down, but 346 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: she divorces him. Right now, she is already she's not 347 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 2: a member of the Nazi Party at this point. By 348 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine, she is very much into Nazi type shit. 349 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 2: And there's a lot of the far right at this 350 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: point in twenty nine is bigger and broader than just Nazis. 351 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: There's all sorts of groups that are eventually the way 352 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: that like Bavarians and Prussians get folded into all being German, 353 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 2: we fold them into Nazis. Now she is into a 354 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: lot of extreme right wing stuff, some of which a 355 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: lot of which gets folded into the Nazis at the time. 356 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: But you might find that surprising, mixed with the fact 357 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: that she gets a divorce, that she is the because 358 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: we have this idea of Nazis as basically more extreme 359 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: versions of religious conservatives right the ones that we deal 360 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: with today, and they hate the idea of a woman 361 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 2: being able to divorce her husband. That is not an 362 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 2: accurate depiction of the Nazis. The Nazis embraced conservatives, they 363 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: eventually co opted conservative parties and the political power that 364 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 2: that gave them, But the Nazis were radicals. Their goal 365 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: was to radically remake society, and the leadership of the 366 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 2: Nazis loved the concept of divorce. Heinrich Himmler encouraged divorced 367 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: and wanted it to be easy for both men and 368 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 2: women because letting people split up from partners they disliked 369 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: would encourage them to raise big families. Right, they support 370 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: divorce because they think it enables more love matches that 371 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: will lead to a lot of kids. The Nazis are 372 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: not anti sex. They are anti homosexuality, for darn sure 373 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: of particularly male homosexuality. They're a little softer on lesbians, 374 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: the Nazis, but the Nazi and again, yeah, eventually, because 375 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 2: there are a lot of homosexual Nazis in this early 376 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 2: period that we're talking about. But the Nazis are one 377 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: of the conflicts they have with the Christian Conservatives that 378 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: they co opt is the Nazis are very pro sex, 379 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: and not just pro having families, but pro like the 380 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: female orgasm as a concept, Like there is Nazi writing 381 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 2: on that, and like the SS digest Again, people, this 382 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: very rarely gets delved into because it's really uncomfortable to 383 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 2: look at. But the Nazis are radicals, right, and that 384 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 2: means they are for reimagining every aspect of society. 385 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 3: I think that it like really shows that because fascism 386 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 3: doesn't come out of the traditional conservative right, it comes 387 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 3: out of people with similar values to that who are 388 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: looking at the strategies and the concepts of the left 389 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: and are like, how do we apply that to right 390 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: the right wing and nationalism instead? 391 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, and that is this again, this comes 392 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 2: from like there's this this this attitude which is not 393 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: morally wrong. Where're like, at a certain point, everyone just 394 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: fighting under that flag was a Nazi. But if you 395 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: look at like a conservative Catholic who voted for the 396 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: Nazis because he thought it was the best alternative to 397 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 2: the Communists as the same as Heinrich Himmler, you're going 398 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: to miss a lot of who Himmler was and what 399 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: he believed because he had a lot of disagreements with 400 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 2: that Gatholic you know, right. Yeah, And so again, when 401 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: we're talking about this period in the late twenties, the 402 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: Nazis are kind of more fit. In the early thirties, 403 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: the Nazis are more famous for wanting to abolish specific 404 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: sexual taboos than being obsessed with them. Herbert Marcuse, a 405 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: critic of the Nazis who wound up working for the OSS, 406 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 2: listed his complaints against the Nazi ideology this way. Quote 407 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 2: the deliberate herding of boys and girls in the training camps, 408 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: the license granted to the racial elite, the facilitation of 409 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 2: marriage and divorce, the sanctioning of illegitimate children. So you 410 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 2: can see part of why this appeals to her. She 411 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: grows up with the shame of being an illegitimate child, 412 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: and a big thing that guys like Himler and Hitler 413 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: say is that there is no such If you are aryan, 414 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: you're legitimate. It doesn't matter if your parents weren't married, 415 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if your dad was fucking around on 416 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 2: a bunch of people. As long as you're Bloe Boodline 417 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 2: is good, that's all we care about. It matters. Yeah, 418 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 2: exactly exactly. 419 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 3: Which is Schreber's ideas applied to the nation instead of 420 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 3: the home. The like corrective force comes from not just Schreber. 421 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, you know, a lot, a lot of 422 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 3: this is coming together, right. Yeah, again, we're picking two people. 423 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: I hope, I'm I'm repeatedly reinforcing the trends that lead 424 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 3: to this are larger than those two people. Yeah, they're 425 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 3: not even dominos in the chain, because there's like it's 426 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 3: not a single chain. It's like a field of dominoes. Yeah, 427 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 3: they're like individual dominoes, and a two dimensional not one 428 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 3: dimensional domino. That's a totally useful metaphor anyway, I like it. 429 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 2: In nineteen thirty eight, the Nazis actually introduced new divorce 430 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: legislation that make it legal for the first time in 431 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 2: Germany to break up based on the grounds of emotional incompatibility. 432 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: That is, that is a thing the Nazis introduced into 433 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 2: German law. You can get divorced if you don't like 434 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: each other anymore. In the book Sex after Fascism, which 435 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 2: is an amazing book very well worth reading, Dagmar Herzog 436 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: writes other grounds for divorce could be found in failure 437 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: to engage in sexual intercourse and thereby fulfill one's marital duties, 438 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: and the use of contraception, and in childlessness. While early 439 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 2: on in the Third Reich, the Nazi mouthpiece Folcusho Beobacter 440 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: had announced explicitly that Nazism opposed divorce, while invoking the 441 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: popular phrase marriages are made in heaven. By nineteen thirty nine, 442 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 2: in the same paper was publishing articles that not only 443 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: sought to help women accept the new divorce regulations, but 444 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 2: glorified divorce and remarriage as an appropriate means of following 445 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: the inner law of one's life and nature. And so again, 446 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: you can find plenty of Nazis being like divorce is horrible, 447 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: just like you can find Nazis saying contraceptions horrible. You 448 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: can also find them like a lot of embracing these 449 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: kind of conservative attitudes towards sex is done when they 450 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: need the conservatives. And then these more radical attitudes that 451 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 2: are that are argued towards expanding the size of the 452 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: VULK get to come out in the late thirties where 453 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: they're like, no, no, no, people should be able to 454 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: split up. And also if your husband has a bunch 455 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 2: of mistresses, mistresses, you should maybe be fine with that 456 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 2: as long as he's having kids with them. And right, like, 457 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 2: and it'll be the job to support these kids. We 458 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: have homes for single mothers where like you can come 459 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 2: if you get knocked up by some ss man, and 460 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: the state will help you raise your children. You know, 461 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 2: when Matters is misntimizing gun kids. Now we need so 462 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: many more kids now that there's machine guns. It's you 463 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: thought it was easy to kill kids in nineteen hundred, 464 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: It is so easy to kill kids in the forties. Yeah, 465 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: we're gonna need a lot of your children very quickly. Yeah. 466 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think this gets it like a 467 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: mistake people will still make about modern fascists. You get 468 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 2: some story about like Roger Stone, how he's really a 469 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: swinger who does like drugs pretending to be this Christian 470 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 2: conservative or like Trump is the opposite of the person 471 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: he's evangelical followers claim to support. And you get a 472 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: lot of liberals and even leftists who will like point 473 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: out these elements of what they see as hypocrisy as 474 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: as if it's a weakness, when it's really evidence of 475 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: a strength, which is that fascists are great at making 476 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: temporary alliances to gain power and lying about what they 477 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: believe to gain power, and their supporters, who are like 478 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: believe different things than them, and a lot of cases 479 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 2: are much more religiously conservative, are willing to work with 480 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: them to kill the people they hate. Yeah, it's it's 481 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: it's very frustrating to me when people look at that 482 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 2: as like, but they're not you know, they shouldn't support 483 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: this man. It's like, well, that's not looking because yeah, 484 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 2: that's that's all it's about, is power, you know. 485 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 3: But this, like, sometimes I have a certain amount of 486 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 3: respect for someone who's my ideological foe as long who 487 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 3: is ideologically consistent. I'm not going to find that in 488 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 3: the in the far right. 489 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 2: No, no, no, like no, because that's not the kind 490 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: of people that they are. Yeah, in Weimar, Germany, the 491 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 2: Nazis made hay out of stories of drugs and homosexual 492 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: debauchery in Berlin as part of their campaign to get 493 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: middle of the road Protestants and Catholics to pick them 494 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: over these scary atheist communists and socialists who are you know, 495 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: in reality also fighting each other as often as anybody else. 496 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: Once the Nazis were in power, these same Christians were 497 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: often frustrated by the fact that Nazism was not very 498 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 2: compatible with Christianity, and in fact, if you're looking at 499 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 2: guys like Himmler, sought to kind of destroy Christianity as 500 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 2: it existed, but by then it was too late in 501 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 2: Joanna's case though. Now back to back to our lady Joanna, 502 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: her first husband maybe cheats on her, maybe she just 503 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: doesn't get along with them. Either way, they get a divorce. 504 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 2: And it is interesting if her husband cheated on her 505 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: and got a friend of hers pregnant, which is what 506 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 2: she told her kids. That is behavior the Nazis encouraged. Right, 507 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: wives are kind of advised to ignore, especially like wives 508 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: in the SS. A lot of writings in the SS 509 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 2: magazine kind of resemble fascist swinger culture where they're talking 510 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: about like it's really weird to read now, but anyway, 511 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: her divorce is both evidence that like, she is not 512 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 2: fully bought in on all of the things the Nazis 513 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 2: are going to argue for, but also there's a lot 514 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: of opportunity for a woman like her in the Nazi Party, because, 515 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 2: for one thing, they don't believe that there's any shame 516 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: in being born out of wedlock, and for another thing, 517 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 2: they don't believe that there's any shame in being a divorcee. Right, yeah, 518 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 2: like that does not lock you out of anything in 519 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 2: the Nazi social hierarchy. In nineteen thirty two, she got 520 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: married for the second time, to a pulmonary specialist named 521 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: Otto Herrr. Their daughter later described the union as one 522 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,719 Speaker 2: of great love for her father and a welcome anchor 523 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 2: for Joanna. They had their first twins the next year, 524 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three, when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany. Having 525 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 2: served as a full physician for less than ten years, 526 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: Joanna had to find like, basically she has to quit 527 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: her job as a doctor because work while having twins 528 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: is not possible. So she quits her job, and this 529 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 2: kind of fills her with frustration. She has been such 530 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: a drifven person her entire life. She can't just switch 531 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: off to caring for kids, right and doing nothing else. 532 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 2: She is too ambitious and more to the point, she's 533 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 2: a terrible mother. Right, she has just lost a TikTok. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 534 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: She's one of those people who she can't continue what 535 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 2: she had been doing when she has kids. But she's 536 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 2: also not going to raise them and what we would 537 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 2: recognize as raising your kids. So she has a lot 538 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 2: of time for a side hustle. Yeah, and that side 539 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: hustle is she starts putting together like articles on how 540 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 2: to raise kids the National Socialist way. She starts your 541 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: career as a writer, publishing articles for the Nazi Party newspaper, 542 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: the Vulksurebeobacter. These were successful enough that she approached a publisher, 543 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 2: Julius LeMans, to write a full book on child rearing. 544 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: They accepted even though she had no pediatric training and 545 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: that their grounds are basically, well, she's a mom, right, 546 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: that's all she should need to be able to write 547 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: a book. This is This is literally what the publisher 548 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 2: wrote later. The fortunate circumstance that this physician was also 549 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 2: a wife and young mother who had not simply gained 550 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: her experiences as a physician, but with her own children 551 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: that gave her books qualities which others did not have. 552 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 3: I mean, this would be true right now if you 553 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 3: were like, I have a PhD and a child, they'd 554 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 3: be like, of course you can write a book. You're 555 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: also a little correct political party. 556 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it would only be easier to be this lady today. 557 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: And that's why there's like a million of her, one 558 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 2: of whom just pled guilty to child abuse. Right That 559 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 2: is kind of why I started this episode with that story. 560 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: But you know who never repleat Wow, shit, Margaret, how's 561 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: some ads sound? Do that sound good to you? I 562 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: love that about child abuse. 563 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,959 Speaker 3: I think it's so excited every time I get an 564 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 3: opportunity to learn about a new product or service. 565 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's where I am. Baby, we're back. 566 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 3: So now that we're back, if you just you're just 567 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 3: here for the ads, just press forward a bunch of 568 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 3: times until you get to the bumper music and then 569 00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 3: you can hear the ads. 570 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: If you listen to the for like the four minutes 571 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: of ads in every single episode. That's what you do 572 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: in every week yeah, because I mean the number of 573 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: people who listen to that has to be one person 574 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: who's like, ah, well they get through these fucking history stories, 575 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: so I can hear an ad Yeah, I want to 576 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: know about Chumba. Goddamnit. 577 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 3: That was the one that was in my mind too. 578 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 2: So she's been some time first year or so that 579 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: she's got kids writing articles for this, you know, the 580 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: big Nazi party paper about child rearing, and then she decides, 581 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: and this is always a bad idea to write a book. 582 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: It's a particularly bad idea in her case because the 583 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: book that she decided to write wasn't a really good 584 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: work of fiction like your book The Sapling Cage Mark. 585 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: It was a real stinker of a tone with the 586 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: snoozeworthy title The German Mother and her First Child. Oh shit, 587 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: was that the title of the sequel? Because you might need. 588 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 3: To change No, No, it's okay, yeah, no, I because 589 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 3: you didn't say in the original German and my sequel 590 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 3: is going to be in German. 591 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all German. Yes, you're using chatchypet for that entirely. 592 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: It's gonna yeah, totally. This is this is the equivalent 593 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 3: of spreading a rumor that someone has murdered someone, as 594 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 3: if you spread rumors that I use arpeicial intelligence for 595 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 3: fiction for German. 596 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, just to translate it, just. 597 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 3: To translate it totally. Yeah, only my German works are easily. 598 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: Joanna was essentially a career woman who had been forced 599 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: to curtail her career to raise kids. Her conclusion as 600 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: a result of this was that children, This is what 601 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: her book is about. Children are distractions. They are petty 602 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: irritants and even tyrants that need to have their will 603 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: broken so that they can be molded to more conveniently 604 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: fit into society. And one, you know, it's this lady 605 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 2: is so Shrebber is such a complex figure and you 606 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 2: have to like have it. She is just the worst 607 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: person who ever lived. 608 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 3: She just shouldn't have had children. She didn't want them, 609 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 3: she shouldn't have It's fine. Abortions, well no, not well, 610 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 3: actually the Nazis were pro abortion for certain people. 611 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: Yes, they sure were very pro for certain people. You 612 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: can't box them in simply there. 613 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 3: No, you can put them in the Nazi box. You 614 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 3: Nazis were pro abortion. Someone would think for five minutes 615 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: and be like, not for white people, you know, I. 616 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: Do just to go back to an earlier thing. I 617 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: do support looking at Nazis as two boxes. Nazis of 618 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: convenience because you wanted something at Nazis because being a 619 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: Nazi was your Again, the hip like Himmler is the 620 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: perfect example of the Nazis because Nazism, right, Yeah, Himmler 621 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: had a bunch of really weird specific shit he believed, 622 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 2: you know, as opposed to like again some of some 623 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: of these like religious conservatives who didn't agree with a 624 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: lot of these other weird Nazi idea. Yeah, I think 625 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: that's kind of worth it. And Joanna is a Himmler Nazi. 626 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: She is a weird specific, fucking Nazi. And in one 627 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: chapter of her books she urges quote the child is 628 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 2: to be fed bait and dry it off. Apart from that, 629 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: left completely alone. This is here talking about like the 630 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: contact you should have with your child as a as 631 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: a parent. You feed them, you bathe them, you dry 632 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 2: them off. You never touch them. Otherwise, they do not 633 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: have physical contact with the adults in their life other 634 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: than that. This process of total physical separation from their 635 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: parents was to begin immediately after birth, as soon as 636 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 2: the umbilical cord was cut. She recommended that infants be 637 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: left isolated for the first twenty four hours after birth, 638 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 2: locked alone in a room. Oh my god, it's like 639 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: the most you see again with Schreber, you see like, oh, 640 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: this guy was dealing with struggling with some of these compulsions, 641 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 2: and he's trying to solve these real problems. With Joanna, 642 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: you're like, oh, you just hated kids. 643 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, you just hatred of a marginalized group. Only your 644 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 3: marginalized group is children. 645 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, your own children are marginalized, which is kind of 646 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: the Nazi story writ large in a lot of ways. 647 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 3: Totally, the greatest mess has got a lot of white 648 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 3: Germans killed. 649 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, more than almost anyone. The greatest mistake, in 650 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: Joanna's eyes, that a parent could make would be to 651 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 2: pay any attention at all to their children's tears. If 652 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 2: you react to a baby when it cries, quote, the 653 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 2: child will quickly understand that all he needs to do 654 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 2: is cry in order to attract a sympathetic soul and 655 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: become the object of caring. Within a short time, he 656 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: will demand this service as a right, leave you no 657 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: peace until he is carried again, cradled, or stroked, And 658 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: with that, a tiny but implacable house tyrant is formed. 659 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: I really I want to to write a children's book 660 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 3: called The Tiny Implacable House Tyrants. But it's a pro 661 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 3: the two year old. 662 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, you see where the there's a kernel 663 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: of truth here every parent that sometimes the little kid 664 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 2: is like, oh my god, they've turned into a little tyrant. Right, 665 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 2: And like very young children, younger than you would expect, 666 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: learn how to like fake cry to get attention. Right, 667 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: they're learning because they need attention. Is this is you 668 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: can call it manipulation. That's literally what it is. It's 669 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 2: not abnormal or a sign that a child is unhealthy. 670 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 2: It's a sign that they are learning how to communicate 671 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 2: and what it means to be a person. And like 672 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: decent parents understand that, Like, well, if you're if your 673 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: kid is fate crying for attention, you don't want to 674 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 2: give them the same attention that they get when they 675 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: are actually crying. But you don't just ignore them or 676 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: lock them alone in a room, because that's child abuse, right, 677 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: I think. 678 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 3: Adults they don't in front of people. 679 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can nicely say, like I know that that's 680 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: not real. You didn't really hit yourself, you like fell 681 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 2: down and stop yourself from hitting yourself. And now you're 682 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 2: fate crying and like I can see that that's fake. Like, 683 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 2: come on, let's go do something else. Right, You don't 684 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: lock them alone in a room and never touch them 685 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 2: for eighteen years. You know, there there are a wide variety. 686 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 2: I'll say this, I think there's a variety of ways 687 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 2: to deal with this behavior from children. None of them 688 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: how Joanna teaches people how to do this. 689 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 3: It's yeah, totally, because it's like, very rarely is lock 690 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 3: anyone into a room by themselves, right for more than 691 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 3: like fifteen minutes a solution to anything. 692 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like I lock myself in a room sometimes 693 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 2: away from people. But yeah, that's that's a matter of 694 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: personal choice. Ye. Yes, I have been described in such 695 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 2: a way. Sigrid Chamberlain, who analyzed Herr's book and detail 696 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 2: in a book of her own, summarized Joanna's attitude towards 697 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 2: child rearing this way. So from the first minute of life, 698 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 2: everything was done to encourage the inability to have a relationship. 699 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 2: Everything that promoted relationships was forbidden because the main goal 700 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 2: was not to let the relationship between the mother or 701 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: parents and the child arise. In the first place. This 702 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 2: is also the purpose of Harror's demands not to spend 703 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 2: any time together except for feeding, changing diapers, getting dressed, 704 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: in bathing. For this, however, exact periods of time were given. 705 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: Bottle feeding should never take longer than ten minutes, breastfeeding 706 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 2: no longer than twenty minutes. If the child strolls or dottles, 707 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,479 Speaker 2: feeding or breastfeeding should be stopped. There is no food 708 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: again until the next scheduled meal. If the child is 709 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 2: hungry by then, firstly, it serves him well, and secondly, 710 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: he learns that he will have to hurry up next time. 711 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 2: That's such a bad way to be a parrot. I 712 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 2: probably don't need to say. Keep in mind, this lady's 713 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: a Nazi, right, It's not hard to but I should 714 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 2: emphasize her book also includes a great deal of what 715 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 2: you might call social Darwinian child wearing philosophy. Adults are 716 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 2: put him in the trenches and see if they survive 717 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: mustard gas. Yeah, yes, see if they're immune to the 718 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: machine guns yet, if we bred that into him yet? 719 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 2: No yet, next generation, keep them coming. Eventually we'll build 720 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: the German that's immune to Russian bullets. 721 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 3: I can feel it. 722 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 2: We're close. Yeah. So in one of the ways in 723 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 2: which this manifested is that adults Joanna encourages like parents 724 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 2: and adults around children to point out anytime a child 725 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 2: makes a mistake or exhibits a weakness in an area. 726 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 2: If they like exhibit that they're weak or flawed in 727 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 2: an area, you point it out in front of everyone, 728 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: and you mock it in public every time. It happens. 729 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: Every time. Yeah, every parent should be a gym teacher. 730 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 2: That is the Joanna Harrr method. That is how the 731 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 2: Nazi society works. Yeah. The primary job Herro describes the 732 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 2: primary job of a good teacher as being to make 733 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 2: fun of kids, basically for being wrong about things, not 734 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 2: to teach them, but to make them shamed of their ignorance. 735 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 2: Super funny. Harrr describes her teachings as modern and scientific, 736 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 2: and Adolf Hitler himself agreed. He personally recommends her book 737 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: to German parents like she is the Hitler approved mom 738 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: fluencer of the Third Reich. The op Hitler is. Hitler 739 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: is the Oprah of Germany and this period He's got 740 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 2: a lot of oprahsque quality. A captivating narrator look we 741 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 2: can say it. Yeah, and he's rout of cars. He 742 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 2: did give everyone go oh my god, Margaret the greater 743 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: Oprah theory of Nazism scanning a lot of traction. And 744 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 2: like Oprah, he's really good at selling books because he 745 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 2: recommends her book to the whole German Reich and it 746 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 2: sells more than one point two million copies, which is 747 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 2: pretty good for now. That's a lot back then. Yeah, 748 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 2: that's like three days of deaths on the Eastern Front, 749 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 2: you know. So if you're wondering how this kind of 750 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 2: parenting might impact a child, so did Klaus Grossman, who 751 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,879 Speaker 2: is a he's a modern day researcher. He's actually retired now, 752 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 2: but during the latter half of the twentieth century was 753 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 2: a leading researcher on mother child attachment from the University 754 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 2: at Regensburg. He told Scientific American quote Juanna Herr's view, 755 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 2: it is important to deny caring when a child asks 756 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 2: for it, but each refusal means rejection. Grossman explains. The 757 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 2: only means of communication open to a newborn or facial 758 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: expression in gestures. He adds, if no response is forthcoming, 759 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,760 Speaker 2: children learn that nothing they try to communicate means anything. Moreover, 760 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 2: infants experience existential fear when they are alone and hungry 761 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 2: and receive no comfort from their attachment figure. In the 762 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 2: worst case, such experiences lead to a form of insecure 763 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 2: attachment that makes it difficult to enter into relationships with 764 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 2: other people in later life. That is not It seems obvious, 765 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 2: but again this is very controversial amongst Nazis. 766 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 3: That like, it's a it's a self fulfilling freud Yes, 767 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 3: it's like you create people with Freudian style attachment problems 768 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,479 Speaker 3: by raising them in this way. 769 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, by very purposefully going about this. 770 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 771 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 2: Now, I started episode one of this series by referencing 772 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 2: a recently disgraced momfluencer. And while that was kind of 773 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 2: a joke for doctor Schreber comparing him to a mo influencer, 774 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 2: Juanna Horror is literally her generation social media mommy guru. 775 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 2: She even writes a Nazi children's book, mother tell me 776 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: about Adolf Hitler. She does christ, It's so fun. The 777 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 2: implacable child. Yeah, the implacable child. Oh tell me about 778 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler. You shouldn't be surprised to hear that this 779 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 2: is a racist book. Time Magazine. German Time Magazine notes 780 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 2: that in the book quote Jews creep like cats, so 781 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 2: that the dogs strike. The Jew should be chased away. 782 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 2: He is foreign to us, he doesn't concern us, and 783 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 2: always just wanted to harm us. God the book ends 784 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 2: sent us a leader like the world has never seen him. 785 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 2: We want to believe him, trust him, follow him wherever 786 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 2: he leads, now and always. This is again published in 787 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 2: nineteen forty. I have found some pictures of this book 788 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 2: on auction websites, and it mostly looks like a normal 789 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 2: child's book for the era, with black and white illustrations 790 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 2: every couple of pages. But I found a list of 791 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 2: the table of contents that gives you an idea of 792 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 2: the thrust of the story. Chapter one, from the Great War, 793 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 2: How the War ended. From Adolf Hitler's homeland, Adolf Hitler 794 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 2: starts his fight. Adolf Hitler wants to help Germany. How 795 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 2: he was betrayed from Germany's worst time. Adolf Hitler starts 796 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 2: fighting again. Doctor Gerbels fights for Berlin. Adolf Hitler becomes 797 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 2: our furor and reich Chancellor. Adolf Hitler provides working bread. 798 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler alleviates the misery in Germany. Adolf Hitler creates 799 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 2: the German Wehrmacht. Adolf Hitler continues to build the Third 800 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,919 Speaker 2: Reich to shame. The book stops right before the Hitler 801 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 2: story gets good. She's like, right at the cusp of 802 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:55,240 Speaker 2: things getting interesting, Adolf Hitler alone in the bunker. Yeah, 803 00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler with a thirty eight or thirty two. Yeah, yeah, 804 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler gets all of the German boys raised on 805 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 2: Joanna's books killed outside of Stalingrat. 806 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 3: Adol Hitler finally learns perspective, and his paintings just kidding, 807 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,320 Speaker 3: could never happen. 808 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, he absolutely doesn't get that shit right. 809 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 3: One of my favorite things in the world is when 810 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 3: every now and then, some like Nazi on Twitter is like, see, look, 811 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 3: isn't he an amazing painter, And it's just like, no, man, 812 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 3: this isn't the thing that I want to argue about 813 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 3: Hitler about No, but no, the answer is no. 814 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 2: But like, if he was an eighth grader, I'd say 815 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 2: he's got promise he. 816 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 3: Could have He could could have become a decent painter 817 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 3: if he'd continued to if he learned perspective. And I 818 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 3: think people. 819 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 2: Who were like he could have been like a middle 820 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 2: class architect and made houses and probably been okay at something. Yeah, 821 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 2: but that was not what was going to make Hitler happy. 822 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 2: Nothing actually made Hitler happy. He was a pretty fundamentally 823 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 2: unhappy man. But that's a story for several other days 824 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 2: that we've talked about at length. 825 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 3: No one really talks about Hitler. That's the thing, is, Yeah, 826 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 3: that's the thing. Podcasters never really bring that man up. 827 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 3: They're afraid to. Yeah, they hitting only people who are 828 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 3: brave enough to go on a tangent about Hitler. 829 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 2: Uh huh, yeah, only this podcast. That's why they call 830 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 2: him Hitler, the man who failed to launch a thousand podcasts. 831 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 832 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 2: So anyway, I bet you're wondering believing all these things 833 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,239 Speaker 2: that she does and preaching them to other Nazis. What 834 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 2: was Joanna like as a mother? Did she actually abide 835 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 2: by her own teachings? And unfortunately, yes, just for the sake, Yeah, 836 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 2: just for the sake of her daughters. You'd wish she 837 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,919 Speaker 2: had been a hypocrite, but she is not. Joanna's diather, 838 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 2: Gertrude would later claim to Time magazine that her mother 839 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 2: strictly abided by the parenting teaching she believed in. This 840 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 2: led Gertrude to be desperate for affection and deeply cut 841 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 2: off from her parents, but physically tough. She later recalled this. 842 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 2: I broke my arm during a bike trip with my 843 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 2: sister in a fall, but we drove on to a 844 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 2: forest spent the day there. Although my arm grew thicker 845 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 2: and thicker, I could only drive back with one hand. 846 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 2: We still went to an ice cream parlor on Leopold Strasa. 847 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 2: The bright madness but typical. I was even proud that 848 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 2: I endured the pain and was tough, And that is 849 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 2: she has. That's horrible. A child should not fight through 850 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,840 Speaker 2: the pain of breaking her own arm on a bicycle. 851 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 2: She should go receive medical attention. But this is what 852 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 2: the Nazis wanted. We're going to talk a little bit 853 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 2: more about this later, but she, Gertrude is a little girl. 854 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 2: Is the kind of kid that Joanna and Hitler are 855 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 2: aiming to create. Now that whole interview with Gertrude is translated, 856 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 2: I did like an automatic Google translate, much like we 857 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 2: were joking about earlier, from German into English. So I 858 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 2: noticed that that Gertrude repeatedly referred to Joanna not as 859 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 2: my mother but as the mother, and I was like, Oh, 860 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 2: that's probably some sort of like translation fuck up. But 861 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 2: then later in the interview, the interview was like, you 862 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,399 Speaker 2: only refer to your mom as the mother, not as 863 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 2: my mother. That's kind of weird, and Gertrude clarifies that's 864 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 2: how she saw. She was never my mother. She was 865 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 2: the mother, that was her title, but she was not 866 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 2: my mom quoto. She was always the mother. There was distance. 867 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 2: The mother was the highest authority. And that is so 868 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:34,479 Speaker 2: profoundly fucked damn like that is I hope not the daughter. 869 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 2: I hope the mom finds a way to somehow die 870 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,359 Speaker 2: in the war. Alas, No, the good news is that 871 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 2: neither of her daughters are Nazis, and in fact both 872 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 2: thoroughly reject their mother. 873 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 3: They make some hard ass partisans. I gotta say, they 874 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 3: wouldn't have to be able to go all day without 875 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 3: with a broken arm if you're gonna be a partisan. 876 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Alas, they are too young to have 877 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 2: gotten to do that, but fair enough they become the 878 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 2: moral equivalent as adults, a celebrity in the Third Reich. 879 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 2: The first seven or so years that Hitler's in power 880 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 2: are great for Joanna and her family. They get very wealthy. 881 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 2: She deliberately cultivates a career within the Nazi Party, and 882 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 2: not just as an author and a doctor. From an 883 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 2: article in the Journal of German History quote from nineteen 884 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 2: thirty five until at least nineteen thirty nine, she thus 885 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 2: worked as a regional specialist for racial policies for the 886 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 2: Munich National Socialist Women's League and the Racial Policy Office. 887 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 2: She also worked for the Mother and Child Relief Agency, 888 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 2: an agency set up in nineteen thirty four by the 889 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 2: National Socialist People's Welfare Organization, which had as its aim 890 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 2: to stand by a German mother in physical, spiritual or 891 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 2: emotional need and to help an hereditarily healthy child to 892 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 2: healthy development. So she's doing the worst thing that she 893 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,680 Speaker 2: could be doing, which is giving other moms direct advice 894 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 2: and also directing Nazi policy for welfare from mothers. Right, 895 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,320 Speaker 2: she is helping the establishment of what are called mutter schools, 896 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 2: which are like the mother's schools. This is German schools 897 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 2: where especially if you're like a single mom. It's not 898 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 2: just single moms, but like you can go to learn 899 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 2: how to be a mother and get help raising your kid, you. 900 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 3: Know, which is pretty easy. It's just a bunch of 901 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 3: rooms and there's one room per kid, and you throw 902 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 3: the kid in the room and there's nothing to do. 903 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, just lock them alone in a room. Simple, Yeah, 904 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 2: the Nazi method of parenting. Joanna was constantly in demand 905 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,280 Speaker 2: as a speaker and a writer, publishing article after article 906 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 2: on the on the parenting methods that young Germans needed 907 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 2: to make their children fit for Hitler's command to be 908 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 2: hard as Krupstahl. This is important to understand again. This 909 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 2: makes her not complaining about her broken armstrong. Hitler's literal 910 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,879 Speaker 2: command was I want children who were as hard as 911 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 2: the metal from which we make our guns. When you 912 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 2: refer to Krupstahl, you're not just referring to like industrial steel. 913 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 2: You're specifically referring to the steel we use for cannons. 914 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 2: That's what our children need to be, right, okay, And 915 00:47:54,560 --> 00:48:00,399 Speaker 2: that is what Joanna is helping parents create. Speaking of 916 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,799 Speaker 2: making your children harder than Crup steel. Margaret Killjoy, do 917 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 2: you know what? This podcast is sponsored by? Gun Steel, 918 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,279 Speaker 2: the Tyson Crup company who today makes all of our elevators. 919 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 2: It's fine, don't look into it. Also submarines, it's fine, 920 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,360 Speaker 2: don't look into it. I'm pro submarines for rich people. 921 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:23,439 Speaker 2: Now you know what I've come around. Maybe CRUPP could 922 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 2: solve some problems for us, although they might build good 923 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 2: ones and so I actually should stay out of that. 924 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 2: I think they mostly build functional ones for like the 925 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 2: Egyptian Navy. I haven't heard of the Egyptian Navy doing 926 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 2: much with submarines, but they're probably not up to anything 927 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 2: good with them. Most navies aren't with their submarines. 928 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,359 Speaker 3: As a general rule. 929 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 2: We made the transition at some point from like submarines 930 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 2: are to be to allow nations to interdict shipping and 931 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 2: destroy battleships to submarines contain world ending death weapons. They're 932 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 2: what we used to end all life if we have to. 933 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:01,880 Speaker 3: That's true. My grandfather was a torpedo, torpedo and submarine 934 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,759 Speaker 3: in the South Pacific and World War Two, but I 935 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 3: don't think he had nuclear capability. 936 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:09,960 Speaker 2: No, no, It's one of my favorite stories is that 937 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,400 Speaker 2: like the French, who have nukes, you know, they have 938 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,759 Speaker 2: their nuclear subs, Like the British, they always have some 939 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 2: subs out with nukes so that if something happens they 940 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,360 Speaker 2: can contribute to ending all life on Earth. And when 941 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,840 Speaker 2: COVID hit they had to like not tell anyone aboard 942 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 2: for like the last two months, like the first two 943 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 2: months of the pandemic, they were just locking everyone down 944 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,240 Speaker 2: from outside contact because they were like, well, if everyone 945 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,799 Speaker 2: loses their minds in here, that maybe their relatives are 946 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 2: dying of the plague above. Like they've got all these nukes. 947 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 2: We got to be really careful with what we tell 948 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,360 Speaker 2: these people until they surface. 949 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,800 Speaker 3: Except then you're like, you know, we've cut off communication. 950 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 3: They're like they must be like, we've lost communication with 951 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:48,880 Speaker 3: the whole land. We better nuke Russia. 952 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,319 Speaker 2: I think it's one of those things they regularly are like, 953 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,320 Speaker 2: no one's going to talk to you for two months 954 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,239 Speaker 2: your submarine. People deal with it. 955 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay. 956 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,839 Speaker 2: My guess is that that's just kind of a thing 957 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 2: you get people use. It's like making them hardest. 958 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,799 Speaker 3: Crubstall I think of my grandfather as as hard as Crubstall, 959 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 3: because he would just go and into a coffin, into 960 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 3: a war zone and be like and like one day 961 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,879 Speaker 3: he like filled out a little form and went off 962 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,840 Speaker 3: to college and then is like the next mission or something, 963 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 3: or maybe two missions later, his his submarine didn't come back. Yeah, 964 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 3: So because they send him to school for engineering and 965 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,320 Speaker 3: he didn't die in a call survived. 966 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,280 Speaker 2: God. Yeah. I have a friend who was a sub 967 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,799 Speaker 2: pilot during like the Cold War. There's a book called 968 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 2: blind Man's Bluff about the ky but it was like 969 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 2: Soviet and American subs basically playing chicken to try to 970 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,400 Speaker 2: force the ether to surface. And so he has all 971 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,439 Speaker 2: these stories about like I am standing in a very 972 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,520 Speaker 2: crowded room doing math in my head as quickly as possible, 973 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 2: and if I or anyone else fucks up, we might 974 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 2: all die in a crack like and maybe everybody dies, 975 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 2: you know, because. 976 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,359 Speaker 3: By the way, is the best ad transition anyone has 977 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 3: ever done on a podcast. 978 00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,480 Speaker 2: Submarines, they're real fucked up folks. 979 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, we're back and we're thinking about the concept of 980 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 4: submarines being I mean, when you raise children the way 981 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,919 Speaker 4: that Joanna Harror did, it does make it easier to 982 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 4: lock them into a metal death tube. 983 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 984 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,279 Speaker 2: Look, it'll be over soon. You're in a submarine. It's 985 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,840 Speaker 2: not gonna last very long. My granddad was a hobo 986 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 2: before that. 987 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 3: He wrote freight trains around and stuff like, you know, 988 00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,400 Speaker 3: it was used to being in a scary metal box. 989 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 3: It was that I popped freight trains and I'm not 990 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:35,719 Speaker 3: getting into a submarine. 991 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 2: No, it used to be this is my this all 992 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 2: when I write my my Momfluencer book, Margaret, Everything's going 993 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,080 Speaker 2: to come down to the fact that it used to 994 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,719 Speaker 2: get easier, to be easier to get kids on submarines, 995 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 2: and it's hard now, and that's why our culture's sick. 996 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 2: You can't force kids to die underwater as easily. 997 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,000 Speaker 3: A generation afraid of submarines causes the world to go. 998 00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,000 Speaker 2: Soft cowardice, cowardice. We need to all be like the 999 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 2: people in the TV show Sques DSV starring Roy Scheider, 1000 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,719 Speaker 2: the drunk sheriff from Jaws, as basically Captain Picard been 1001 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,760 Speaker 2: at a big submarine. It's a good show. That was Dolphin. 1002 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:14,920 Speaker 3: We do need to all be like that. 1003 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 2: There's an episode where William Shatner plays Slowbod on Thelossovic. 1004 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 2: It's quite a series. Anyway, back to. 1005 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:26,560 Speaker 3: The Nazira. 1006 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Joanna sees yourself not just as an academic, 1007 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,920 Speaker 2: but as a racial soldier preparing the future armies of 1008 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 2: Germany in a forward to her book on parenting, written 1009 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty. It gets another edition at the start 1010 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 2: of the war. She wrote, quote, today we are witnessing 1011 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 2: a large scale campaign by our government in which the 1012 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,360 Speaker 2: healthy genome and the racially valuable are defended against everything 1013 00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,320 Speaker 2: sick and declining. She expresses praise against the anti Semitic 1014 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,040 Speaker 2: Nuremberg laws pleads for the four child marriage in order 1015 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,919 Speaker 2: to counter the quote huge danger of popular death, which 1016 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,520 Speaker 2: is how like the German got translated. I don't know 1017 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,120 Speaker 2: how to better translate that, but I think that means basically, 1018 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,760 Speaker 2: we're about to be feeding a lot of our boys 1019 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,799 Speaker 2: to machine guns. You need to make more of them. Oh, 1020 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:15,799 Speaker 2: I just think it was like a great replacement type thing. 1021 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,600 Speaker 2: But yeah, no, no, no, no, like we the Nazis 1022 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,960 Speaker 2: are about to get rid of a lot of these kids. 1023 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, now. 1024 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,399 Speaker 2: This is all pretty dark. But there's a darker corollary here, 1025 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,279 Speaker 2: which is that, since the Reich needed large families to 1026 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 2: counter all of the deaths they were about to cause 1027 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 2: for their children, kids who refuse to be raised into 1028 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,919 Speaker 2: obedient Nazis are in the same spectrum as race traders. Right, 1029 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 2: this is not just this is how you have to 1030 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 2: raise your kid. If your kid is not perfectly obedient, 1031 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,279 Speaker 2: your kid is a race trader, and they have to 1032 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 2: be broken until they fit the mold gutrn Haher's own 1033 00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,920 Speaker 2: sister was disobedient, and this is how she recalls her 1034 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 2: mother reacting quote, she wanted to break my sister's will. 1035 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,200 Speaker 2: When I think of it, I always have in mind 1036 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,920 Speaker 2: how to break apart a flexible young hazel nut. So 1037 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,600 Speaker 2: the inns are split in the air. 1038 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 3: The future belongs to me. I'm not saying that song. 1039 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,880 Speaker 3: Never mind me, no, no, it's not so. The response 1040 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,600 Speaker 3: within Nazi Germany to Harirr's ideas was massive. Thousands of 1041 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 3: mothers even wrote the publisher letters thanking them for the 1042 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,640 Speaker 3: invaluable service of providing a work of national socialist parenting advice. 1043 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,799 Speaker 3: Now it's worth acknowledging Joanna is not an iconoclast within 1044 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,720 Speaker 3: the budding field of child development experts in the United States. 1045 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 3: John Watson, the American founder of behavioralism, recommended that parents 1046 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 3: not let children sit on their lap and that they 1047 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:46,400 Speaker 3: not kiss their children. 1048 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,160 Speaker 2: A lot of and he's not the only one. A 1049 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 2: lot of prominent parenting influencers, I guess of the time academics, 1050 00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:57,640 Speaker 2: particularly talking about parenting, did recommend against is, particularly the 1051 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 2: level of physical contact between parents and kids that we 1052 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 2: know is healthy today, Like we have a deep understanding 1053 00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,080 Speaker 2: of how necessary that is. 1054 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,880 Speaker 3: But the kissing your kids thing, when you watch like 1055 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,440 Speaker 3: old movies and read old books, it's like uncomfortable because 1056 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 3: parents like kiss their children sometimes on the mouth, and 1057 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,879 Speaker 3: that's like not normal, and modern society is this when 1058 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 3: that goes away, this. 1059 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,879 Speaker 2: Is part like that is some people are pushing against that, right. 1060 00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,560 Speaker 2: This is again the world thennis as complicated as the 1061 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,799 Speaker 2: world today, a bit smaller because the population was. But 1062 00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:35,879 Speaker 2: even within German society, these attitudes towards parenting and within 1063 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,560 Speaker 2: American society, these attitudes towards parenting are not universal. And 1064 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,919 Speaker 2: I find what Gertrude Horror writes in Time here kind 1065 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,160 Speaker 2: of valuable and kind of trying to determine. Okay, so 1066 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,799 Speaker 2: other people were taught. We're talking in similar ways about like, well, 1067 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,920 Speaker 2: maybe you shouldn't kiss your kids, you shouldn't touch your kids. 1068 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,239 Speaker 2: As much to what Joanna was saying, what made her 1069 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,040 Speaker 2: methods of child rearing unique, And this is what her 1070 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,319 Speaker 2: daughter writes, there is a German peculiarity. In the Nazi era, 1071 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 2: these concepts did not remain an expert discourse, but reached 1072 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,400 Speaker 2: the base the parents, especially through Joanna Harrer's books. They 1073 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:13,400 Speaker 2: were so hugely popular because a mother spoke to mothers 1074 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,799 Speaker 2: in them. Because in Germany the mothers may have been 1075 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,480 Speaker 2: more receptive to horror as authoritarian determination, because their principles 1076 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,640 Speaker 2: fit so perfectly with the Nazi ideology that wanted their 1077 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 2: youth as hard as krupshtall, and because the Nazis made 1078 00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,879 Speaker 2: their books of standard works in mother schools. So again, 1079 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 2: what Gertrude is saying is that sure, you can say 1080 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 2: John Watson is saying some similar things in America about 1081 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,839 Speaker 2: how you shouldn't kiss your kids. There are you know, 1082 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,399 Speaker 2: British and other in other parts of the West, there 1083 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,439 Speaker 2: are child development experts that are urging less contact between 1084 00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,760 Speaker 2: parents and kids, but they are doctors and experts. Joanna 1085 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,279 Speaker 2: was a mother and that is why her work has 1086 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 2: much more influence in Germany than some similar ideas have 1087 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,719 Speaker 2: in other countries, because it's coming from a mom. 1088 00:56:56,320 --> 00:57:00,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, and just they're like being a popular author thing. 1089 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,120 Speaker 3: It's just like, yes, screaming popular is then like sells 1090 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:05,400 Speaker 3: a lot of books, although that's part of it, but 1091 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,560 Speaker 3: like literally like populism popular. 1092 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, that is also very important, and it 1093 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,040 Speaker 2: is important to note that like she is not just, 1094 00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:18,280 Speaker 2: she is specifically advocating her attitude towards national socialist mothering 1095 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 2: right in the post war era. This distinction gets lost 1096 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,520 Speaker 2: Joanna's book I told you, it's sold one point two 1097 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,080 Speaker 2: million copies. Half of those are after the Nazis fall. 1098 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,160 Speaker 2: They like edit the book to cut out some of 1099 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,840 Speaker 2: the Hitler stuff, and it stays. It continues to be popular, right, 1100 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,240 Speaker 2: and so it kind of gets it gets sort of 1101 00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 2: marked down as just being well. She was one of 1102 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:44,960 Speaker 2: many authoritarian parenting experts, but Sigrid Chamberlain describes Herror as 1103 00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 2: not just an authoritarian parenting guru, but a national socialist 1104 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,680 Speaker 2: parenting guru. And I want to quote now from an 1105 00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,280 Speaker 2: article by Katherina Rowold in the Journal of German History. 1106 00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,959 Speaker 2: At the heart of her analysis of Herr's manuals lies 1107 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 2: the contention that this childcare expert promoted ways of caring 1108 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,240 Speaker 2: for babies that consciously sought to prevent the formation of 1109 00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,080 Speaker 2: secure attachment between mother and child. Chamberlain sees an initial 1110 00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,680 Speaker 2: lack of attachment leading to an inability to form other 1111 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,880 Speaker 2: attachments later in life as the distinguishing factor of a 1112 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,400 Speaker 2: national socialist upbringing. Considering herself to have experienced such an upbringing, 1113 00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,640 Speaker 2: Chamberlain is primarily concerned with understanding the psychological repercussions of 1114 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,280 Speaker 2: this early childhood socialization, even though the Third Reich existed 1115 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,840 Speaker 2: for only twelve years. She explains this upbringing created particular 1116 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,920 Speaker 2: damage a million times. Okay, now there's a lot of 1117 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 2: debate over this. This is a period of significant historical contention, 1118 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,280 Speaker 2: Herror's work. How to see it? Is this authoritarian parenting? 1119 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,440 Speaker 2: Is it national socialist parenting? How should we look at this? 1120 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:50,200 Speaker 2: I am sympathetic with how Chamberlain analyzes this, but will 1121 00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,200 Speaker 2: there's disagreement with that substantially. There's debate over like whether 1122 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,320 Speaker 2: or not you should because there is evidence, particularly that 1123 00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,400 Speaker 2: this lack of attachment in in German culture between mothers 1124 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,720 Speaker 2: and children goes back further than Joanne, and it definitely does. 1125 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 2: You can find evidence of this in Prussia, in Imperial Germany. 1126 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 2: There's some even some data on like attachment issues in 1127 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:17,240 Speaker 2: different German regions being higher than in other parts of Europe. 1128 00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:19,360 Speaker 2: And I think it's kind of hard to lock down 1129 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,040 Speaker 2: how much of this is like, well, Joanna's teachings were 1130 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,800 Speaker 2: able to get so much more purchase in Nazi Germany 1131 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,880 Speaker 2: because it was already kind of fertile terrain for them, right, 1132 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,160 Speaker 2: And that's also part of why Nazism was able to build, 1133 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:35,680 Speaker 2: is because these attachment issues make it easier to make 1134 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,640 Speaker 2: people in the good fascists, and these were more common, 1135 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,880 Speaker 2: always more common in Germany, you know, starting with kind 1136 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:45,160 Speaker 2: of like Prussia. But you know, I think that if 1137 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 2: you want to answer the question what kind of children 1138 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:52,600 Speaker 2: did Joanna Horror's advice help to create? Specifically, that is 1139 00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,600 Speaker 2: difficult to do because you will be by definition looking 1140 00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,479 Speaker 2: at the generation of Germans born during and right after 1141 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,280 Speaker 2: the war, which is the kids who are born when 1142 01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,760 Speaker 2: her advice on parenting is really popular, and the children 1143 01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,680 Speaker 2: who were born during and after World War Two are 1144 01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:13,439 Speaker 2: often emotionally stunted and traumatized because of World War Two? Right, 1145 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:15,760 Speaker 2: So how do you or at least that's a factor. 1146 01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,840 Speaker 2: So how do you determine how much of it was 1147 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:19,400 Speaker 2: her teachings and how much of it was the fact 1148 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,680 Speaker 2: that they grew up being bombed and dressed in right, 1149 01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,560 Speaker 2: how do you separate those things that actually makes analyzing 1150 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,560 Speaker 2: the impact of Horror's teachings difficult because there's also this war. 1151 01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:31,080 Speaker 2: It can found. 1152 01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,919 Speaker 3: Something and her own kids are opposed to this ideology 1153 01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:36,560 Speaker 3: even though they were raised under it. 1154 01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:38,720 Speaker 2: You know, yes, yes, I think that's one of the 1155 01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,320 Speaker 2: things that's kind of helpful in analyzing like what this does. 1156 01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:43,880 Speaker 2: But there have been some academics who have tried to 1157 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:48,000 Speaker 2: account for, like what was unique about Joanna's teaching methods 1158 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,600 Speaker 2: and how did it uniquely affect German kids outside of 1159 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,880 Speaker 2: the damage that was done to all kids who were 1160 01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,640 Speaker 2: involved in World War Two. One of the ways that 1161 01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,720 Speaker 2: this has been accounted for Rowold, in that article for 1162 01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,160 Speaker 2: the Journal of German History, compared Herr's child rearing manuals 1163 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,760 Speaker 2: to popular advice on what was called mother craft in 1164 01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,840 Speaker 2: the UK during the same period. And some of the 1165 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,880 Speaker 2: logic was that, well, these kids in the UK, a 1166 01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,360 Speaker 2: lot of them get bombed too, you know, they have 1167 01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:17,360 Speaker 2: these same searing or similar searing experiences. So let's look 1168 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,160 Speaker 2: at these different parenting gurus and see kind of the 1169 01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,440 Speaker 2: different ways in which like kids who were raised and 1170 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,600 Speaker 2: these methods turned out when we know that they both 1171 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 2: had these kind of searing war experiences and the guru 1172 01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:32,360 Speaker 2: that Rowold compares Herror to that. The her UK counterpart 1173 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,200 Speaker 2: is a doctor named Frederick Truby King. Like Herr King 1174 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,440 Speaker 2: was an you know, it was a doctor, but unlike 1175 01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,040 Speaker 2: herr King was a doctor who specialized in children. He's 1176 01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:44,560 Speaker 2: a pediatrician. And one way in which their books differ 1177 01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,440 Speaker 2: is that Truby King advised a scientific approach to motherhood, 1178 01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 2: utilizing rigorous research done into the causes of infant mortality 1179 01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:56,360 Speaker 2: and sickness to ensure outcomes for children. Harror counseled obedience 1180 01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:01,560 Speaker 2: to state services, particularly New Reich departmentsablished to encourage racial health, 1181 01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,160 Speaker 2: but she also attacked experts who, during the Weimar years 1182 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,200 Speaker 2: had told German mothers to do things like drink pasteurized 1183 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,000 Speaker 2: milk and hug their kids. Right. She was like, these doctors, 1184 01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,840 Speaker 2: they don't know what they're doing. As a mother, you 1185 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,160 Speaker 2: have instincts, and those instincts are that you want to 1186 01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,800 Speaker 2: be as far away from your kids as possible. Lean 1187 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,640 Speaker 2: into those instincts. That's literally, She's like, too much bookish 1188 01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:27,920 Speaker 2: knowledge will hurt your kids. You just need to ignore them. Yeah, yeah, 1189 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,200 Speaker 2: row Old rights of her teachings fathers were mostly absent 1190 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:33,760 Speaker 2: in all the manuals. For Harror, it was clear that 1191 01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:35,840 Speaker 2: mothers ought to be caring for young children. To be 1192 01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,880 Speaker 2: a good mother, a woman needed specific characteristics. She had 1193 01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,400 Speaker 2: to be a dutiful, highly principled woman with common sense 1194 01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,840 Speaker 2: who had a sense of order, regularity, punctuality, and cleanliness. 1195 01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,880 Speaker 2: Her manuals concurred with Nazi ideology regarding Aryan women, which 1196 01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,040 Speaker 2: stressed their reproductive role in saw their place in the 1197 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,640 Speaker 2: domestic sphere. It also emphasized the Nazi importance given to blood, 1198 01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,280 Speaker 2: the central metaphor for a mystical conception of race and inheritance. 1199 01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,080 Speaker 2: According to Herr, it was the blood relationship between the 1200 01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,120 Speaker 2: mother and child that made her the best person to 1201 01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,800 Speaker 2: raise her children. This relationship meant that mothers belonged to 1202 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:11,400 Speaker 2: their children inseparably faithfully. A mother knew the smallest peculiarities 1203 01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 2: and could understand her child because it was blood of 1204 01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,040 Speaker 2: her blood. Children. However, despite the blood bond, started to 1205 01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,360 Speaker 2: form an emotional bond with the mother only at the 1206 01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,480 Speaker 2: age of about two and a half. According to Harror, 1207 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:23,959 Speaker 2: while mothers were but in the best position to raise 1208 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,919 Speaker 2: their babies and their young children, these were indifferent as 1209 01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,800 Speaker 2: to who looked after them until that age. And this 1210 01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,320 Speaker 2: again fits into a lot of these Nazi teachings about 1211 01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:34,920 Speaker 2: you don't need to have a family unit. You going 1212 01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 2: to have a dad fertilize a bunch of women, and 1213 01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,479 Speaker 2: for the first two years, it doesn't even matter who 1214 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:42,400 Speaker 2: looks after that kid. You can keep them alone in 1215 01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:43,960 Speaker 2: a room as long as you feed them and clean 1216 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,400 Speaker 2: the shit off of them. And then you know, the 1217 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,120 Speaker 2: mother is their real blood and that's who needs to 1218 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,160 Speaker 2: raise them. The father's going to be off dying. You know. Yeah, 1219 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:53,000 Speaker 2: it's cool stuff. 1220 01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,560 Speaker 3: It's interesting because it seems like overall, yeah, and maybe 1221 01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,560 Speaker 3: this is just the conception I came in with it. 1222 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,280 Speaker 3: It's like we have all of these different ideas about 1223 01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,080 Speaker 3: like nature versus nurture, but I think sometimes it's just neither. 1224 01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,360 Speaker 3: It's just like most of the time, most kids kind 1225 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:10,880 Speaker 3: of turn out okay, like despite what happens to them. 1226 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,040 Speaker 3: Like people should try, right, people should try to raise 1227 01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:17,120 Speaker 3: their kids good, you know, but like overall, it's like 1228 01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:25,000 Speaker 3: kids are resilient on some level, you know, Like. 1229 01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,360 Speaker 2: Like the whole reason why there's hope in humanity is 1230 01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,280 Speaker 2: that even when you try to raise a whole generation 1231 01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:32,320 Speaker 2: this way, it doesn't work out the way that you want, 1232 01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:36,080 Speaker 2: but they there has been they have done some research. Again, 1233 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:38,560 Speaker 2: it's hard to isolate the war from the impact on 1234 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:42,080 Speaker 2: some of these different child rearing experiments. There's a study 1235 01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:46,240 Speaker 2: by Ilka Quindo of Frankfurt University on the generation born 1236 01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:49,000 Speaker 2: during the war, and it was initially to study the 1237 01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:52,800 Speaker 2: long term impacts of bombing raids on child development. But 1238 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,640 Speaker 2: after these initial sort of interviews, the researchers were like, 1239 01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:00,080 Speaker 2: these people keep talking about like their family experiences, so 1240 01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,800 Speaker 2: we should probably alter the studies to like interview them 1241 01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,080 Speaker 2: more about how they were raised to as children. And 1242 01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,960 Speaker 2: they concluded that a lot of the former kids they 1243 01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:13,520 Speaker 2: interviewed had a pattern of strong loyalty to their parents 1244 01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:16,560 Speaker 2: and a refusal to admit any conflicts with them that 1245 01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,800 Speaker 2: was like severe enough to be a relational disorder, which 1246 01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:24,120 Speaker 2: is huh. Quindo is noticing something similar to what Shatzman 1247 01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,960 Speaker 2: noted about Schreber's son, right, that he cannot see his 1248 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:31,000 Speaker 2: father's having made a mistake even though his parent did 1249 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,600 Speaker 2: something very bad to hurt him, right, right, And that's 1250 01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,560 Speaker 2: this whole generation of kids like raised under the bombs 1251 01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:42,120 Speaker 2: have trouble adequately blaming their like like seeing their parents 1252 01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 2: in some ways they have like this sense of loyalty 1253 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:49,240 Speaker 2: to them that is kind of like noted, it's there's 1254 01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,240 Speaker 2: a lot of like I don't want to get too 1255 01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:54,360 Speaker 2: much into like the psychology here, because it's all pretty 1256 01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,640 Speaker 2: wonky and controversial. Quindau has pointed out that Germany is 1257 01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,280 Speaker 2: the only country in Europe where what happened and to 1258 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,000 Speaker 2: the children of the war has been so broadly discussed, 1259 01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:07,080 Speaker 2: even though like destruction and bombings you know, occurred in 1260 01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,800 Speaker 2: a lot of other countries, Like German kids were not 1261 01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:12,360 Speaker 2: by far the ones who suffered the most, but they 1262 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 2: have been like the impact of the war on them 1263 01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,360 Speaker 2: has been studied the most. And she's also noted that 1264 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,920 Speaker 2: psychoanalyst Anna Freud found that children with a healthy attachment 1265 01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,240 Speaker 2: to their parents were less traumatized by things like war 1266 01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,440 Speaker 2: and violence than those with a less solid attachment. Putting 1267 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,520 Speaker 2: everything together, Quindo concludes from the interviews that she conducted 1268 01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:36,080 Speaker 2: about bombings that basically a lot of German children were 1269 01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:40,400 Speaker 2: still after the war dealing with deep grieving because they 1270 01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:43,120 Speaker 2: had had like they had not been prepared by their 1271 01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:47,160 Speaker 2: upbringing to heal from the experience of war. But maybe 1272 01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:50,800 Speaker 2: that was Like, the more most direct consequence of Joanna's 1273 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,680 Speaker 2: parenting style is that it raised kids who could not 1274 01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,760 Speaker 2: effectively heal and learn from the violence they experienced in 1275 01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:59,280 Speaker 2: a way they would have been able to if they'd 1276 01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:04,160 Speaker 2: had more direct attachment to their parents. And that's going 1277 01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:05,960 Speaker 2: to be really relevant to what we have to talk 1278 01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,800 Speaker 2: about next week, which is what the generations after the 1279 01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,280 Speaker 2: war start to believe about child rearing. 1280 01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,640 Speaker 3: Bet it'll be good because this is the show about. 1281 01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:17,040 Speaker 2: The show about good stuff. 1282 01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,440 Speaker 3: Flowers in the cracks of the pavement is the name 1283 01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:21,000 Speaker 3: of this show. 1284 01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:25,440 Speaker 2: It's good stuff. So again, as I said, like Herr's 1285 01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,120 Speaker 2: book Shorten of some of its worst Nazi dialogue gets 1286 01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,480 Speaker 2: re released after the war and remains a bestseller, and 1287 01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:33,440 Speaker 2: that's going to be a meaningful part of the story 1288 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,360 Speaker 2: we tell next week, right, her work kind of helps 1289 01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:40,440 Speaker 2: prepare a generation of Germans to accept some truly unacceptable things, 1290 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,080 Speaker 2: or at least makes it more difficult for the war 1291 01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,160 Speaker 2: generation to heal. The fact that a lot of kids 1292 01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,960 Speaker 2: are raised according to Joanna's principles is going to have 1293 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,000 Speaker 2: echoes that go on long after the war. But before 1294 01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:55,120 Speaker 2: we get to that, I want to end this week 1295 01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:59,200 Speaker 2: by concluding Joanna's story. As a prominent Nazi with membership 1296 01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:03,160 Speaker 2: in several party organizations as well as the NSDAP, Joanna 1297 01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,440 Speaker 2: was someone who had good reason to fear Allied victory. 1298 01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:09,960 Speaker 2: And in fact, when the Americans come and like she's 1299 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:13,400 Speaker 2: afraid of getting arrested. Leads to the only instance in 1300 01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:18,120 Speaker 2: Gertrude's childhood where she recalls her mom being physically affectionate 1301 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,640 Speaker 2: to her and oh, it's so much worse than you 1302 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:24,160 Speaker 2: might guess. Quote. Only once in my memory did she 1303 01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,479 Speaker 2: hold me in her arms. That was in the war. 1304 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,200 Speaker 2: During the evacuation, I must have been two years old. 1305 01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:31,879 Speaker 2: Our father had stayed in Munich with my mother's parents. 1306 01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,080 Speaker 2: He had not been drafted because he was a lung 1307 01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,559 Speaker 2: specialist in Upper Bavaria. We children were evacuated with the 1308 01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,000 Speaker 2: mother in the Hague and Upper Bavaria in an Inn. 1309 01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,960 Speaker 2: When the Americans approached, my mother should talk to them 1310 01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:45,679 Speaker 2: because she spoke German very well. And then she hugged 1311 01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:47,720 Speaker 2: me because she knew that the Americans were fond of 1312 01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:52,800 Speaker 2: children's That's the only instance of physical affection I know 1313 01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:55,640 Speaker 2: Americans like kids, So I'm going to pretend to like 1314 01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:59,040 Speaker 2: my kids to get better treatment right on time. This 1315 01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:00,759 Speaker 2: girl's mom holds her. 1316 01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,639 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I was hoping. She just suddenly volunteer 1317 01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:06,679 Speaker 3: for the inventory, and they created an all women's unit 1318 01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:07,080 Speaker 3: and they all. 1319 01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,920 Speaker 2: Got no kill. It's not nearly that nice. It is 1320 01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,800 Speaker 2: kind of nice that her attitude is like Americans, the 1321 01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:18,559 Speaker 2: people who like children. I know it speaks well of us. Yeah, well, 1322 01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,360 Speaker 2: they don't hate their kids. I'd better pretend to like mine. 1323 01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:23,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1324 01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:27,080 Speaker 2: Joanna does get interned after the war, as is her husband, 1325 01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:29,880 Speaker 2: and he is so desperate by the trauma of the 1326 01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,559 Speaker 2: war's ending, of defeat, of being interned, of the loss 1327 01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,320 Speaker 2: of his own hopes for the future, that he commits suicide. 1328 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,960 Speaker 2: He like flings himself into a river, and Joanna hates 1329 01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:42,479 Speaker 2: him for it. Shit talks her husband to her daughters 1330 01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:46,559 Speaker 2: for the rest of their lives for his weakness. Her 1331 01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,200 Speaker 2: like her mother's strongest recollection of her mom and dad, 1332 01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:52,920 Speaker 2: as her mother repeatedly calling her father a coward because 1333 01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:56,680 Speaker 2: he's afraid to get arrested by the Allies. Such a 1334 01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:00,880 Speaker 2: piece of shit. Well, Joanna would write summaries of her 1335 01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,559 Speaker 2: own life in the future for professional purposes, she would 1336 01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:05,640 Speaker 2: spend the rest of her life basically leaving out the 1337 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:09,240 Speaker 2: years from nineteen thirty two to forty five. Gertrude did 1338 01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:13,160 Speaker 2: not learn anything about the Nazi period until age fourteen. 1339 01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:15,639 Speaker 2: And this is amazing. She's in high school and they're 1340 01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,960 Speaker 2: like having a debate in history class, and Gertrude speaks 1341 01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:21,360 Speaker 2: up in the debate and I don't know what she said, 1342 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,360 Speaker 2: but her history teacher snaps at her, given what your 1343 01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:26,760 Speaker 2: mom did, maybe you should keep your mouth shut during 1344 01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:34,280 Speaker 2: this time, which is damn Even with this experience, Gertrude 1345 01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:36,480 Speaker 2: is never able to talk to her mom about Nazism. 1346 01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,800 Speaker 2: She just says it would have been impossible to talk 1347 01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,080 Speaker 2: to her about this, and I don't think she's wrong. 1348 01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,240 Speaker 2: Gertrude does say my mom was an unrepentant Nazi until 1349 01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,559 Speaker 2: the end. Her sister Anne concurred with this view, telling 1350 01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,240 Speaker 2: an interviewer. Until her death, no one could talk to 1351 01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 2: her about the Third Reich. All children had to suffer 1352 01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,840 Speaker 2: from the mother's cold feeling while problems within the family 1353 01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:00,519 Speaker 2: were solved with violence. Joanna was not allowed to practice 1354 01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:02,840 Speaker 2: medicine under the new federal Republic, but she worked in 1355 01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:06,400 Speaker 2: health departments in Germany until retiring in nineteen sixty five. 1356 01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,560 Speaker 3: The only rather she was a doctor than a bureaucrat. 1357 01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:14,479 Speaker 2: God, yes, at least a pull monologist. You assume there's 1358 01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:19,519 Speaker 2: only so much damage a lovely doctor can do. The 1359 01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:22,280 Speaker 2: only evidence that she suffered at all from her convictions 1360 01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:24,840 Speaker 2: was the fact that she grew increasingly addicted to alcohol 1361 01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,719 Speaker 2: and pills at some point as she aged, eventually forcing 1362 01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,960 Speaker 2: her daughters to care for her, and Gertrude describes at 1363 01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,400 Speaker 2: some point her the mother grows frail and broken enough 1364 01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:37,960 Speaker 2: that Gertrude starts seeing her as my mother, And this 1365 01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:42,120 Speaker 2: happened shortly before Joanna dies on April thirtieth, nineteen eighty eight. 1366 01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,640 Speaker 2: She like becomes weak and pitiful enough that Gertrude is 1367 01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:48,559 Speaker 2: able to view her not as this figure of the mother, 1368 01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:49,679 Speaker 2: but as my mom. 1369 01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:55,360 Speaker 3: WHOA, there's so much going on there, I know, and 1370 01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:57,600 Speaker 3: I'm like going through my own Like I try not 1371 01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:02,400 Speaker 3: to be like a vengeance girl, but like, yeah, I'm 1372 01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:03,960 Speaker 3: struggling with some empathy here. 1373 01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:08,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no empathy to have for Joanna, like for Gertrude. Sure, 1374 01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:11,920 Speaker 2: for Gertrude n no, my god, like what across to 1375 01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,240 Speaker 2: bear this lady being your mom? Yeah, but no Joanna. 1376 01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:19,559 Speaker 1: Who do you think would have survived in a room Joanna? 1377 01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:23,120 Speaker 1: Or the mother god lady that turned silver? 1378 01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,479 Speaker 2: Oh no, Joanna. Joanna would fucking cut that lady. 1379 01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:30,639 Speaker 3: Oh, I just figure how you're talking about. I assume 1380 01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:34,000 Speaker 3: you're talking about some weird mythical goddess that was silver 1381 01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:35,280 Speaker 3: of those people. 1382 01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:43,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, where her like cult members kept her dead 1383 01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:48,360 Speaker 1: body for so many days, so many days. 1384 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:52,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, that lady was like very different attitude Joanna. Joanna 1385 01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 2: could have been a cult leader, but she would have 1386 01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:56,120 Speaker 2: been like the hitting kind of cult leader. 1387 01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:58,520 Speaker 3: She would have loved scientology. 1388 01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:00,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, she would have been. She would have fit in 1389 01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:02,400 Speaker 2: there very well. That that would have That would have 1390 01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:04,600 Speaker 2: offered her a place as well. She she could have 1391 01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,360 Speaker 2: been disappearing people for l Ron Hubbard if she'd been 1392 01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,439 Speaker 2: born in a slightly different period, actually around the same 1393 01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:12,599 Speaker 2: period of time. It just shows in different things. 1394 01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:16,080 Speaker 1: I think that a right time, wrong place. 1395 01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:18,960 Speaker 3: I don't know that she could have I think she 1396 01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:20,640 Speaker 3: was I think she only could haveditioned it out. I 1397 01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:22,639 Speaker 3: don't think she could have broken her arm and kept camping. 1398 01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:26,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, You're probably right about that because like her dad 1399 01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:30,559 Speaker 2: is ultimately like she has such a supportive parrot figure, 1400 01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:34,080 Speaker 2: which is her it's not her mom. She like that 1401 01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:37,560 Speaker 2: probably explains some of her feeling that mothers shouldn't be 1402 01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,600 Speaker 2: connected to their kids. But like everything she has is 1403 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:42,519 Speaker 2: kind of rooted in the fact that her dad is 1404 01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:44,840 Speaker 2: willing to stand up for her as a kid. Yeah, 1405 01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:50,960 Speaker 2: which is interesting. Yeah. Anyway, well we're going to talk 1406 01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:54,880 Speaker 2: about the aftershocks of these two people and like what 1407 01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:59,200 Speaker 2: what the generation raised under Joanna's tactics and you know, 1408 01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:02,360 Speaker 2: the generation right after that one, the during the war 1409 01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,840 Speaker 2: and the immediately post war children of Germany. Some of 1410 01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:08,880 Speaker 2: the things some of them come to believe about how 1411 01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:12,360 Speaker 2: you should raise kids as a response to the Nazi 1412 01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,880 Speaker 2: era and a response to people like Joanna and spoilers, Margaret, 1413 01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:17,559 Speaker 2: it's not very good either. Yeah. 1414 01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,360 Speaker 3: No, you've already explained that this was the fun week. 1415 01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:22,519 Speaker 3: This is the fun week, This is the good week. 1416 01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:31,040 Speaker 3: Next week, baby, it's pedophiles all the way down. Yeah, 1417 01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:32,160 Speaker 3: not even a good band. 1418 01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:35,760 Speaker 2: It's not a bit. That's just an accurate description of 1419 01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:40,640 Speaker 2: next week's episodes. There is no joke there. I'm just 1420 01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:44,400 Speaker 2: laughing because it was I had to write twelve thousand 1421 01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:47,880 Speaker 2: words about that and it was not pleasant. I wrote 1422 01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:50,559 Speaker 2: them while I was in the ICU with my dad 1423 01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:54,120 Speaker 2: and it was, you know, still a notably unpleasant part 1424 01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:55,040 Speaker 2: of that experience. 1425 01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:58,200 Speaker 3: It was an interesting because, like, the work that you 1426 01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:00,519 Speaker 3: do with Behind the Bastards is like explo some of 1427 01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:02,120 Speaker 3: the bad things that humans are capable of, and I 1428 01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:04,160 Speaker 3: think it's very useful. But then the format of the 1429 01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:05,960 Speaker 3: show is that you also have to like we have 1430 01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:09,439 Speaker 3: to keep it entertaining, right, gotta have some bits. Yeah, 1431 01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:11,240 Speaker 3: I wonder how you can pull this off. Next week 1432 01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:13,439 Speaker 3: on En the Me, I. 1433 01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:17,120 Speaker 2: Was going to open an episode with variations of my 1434 01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:19,880 Speaker 2: what's exing, my whys, and the word pedophiles. But there's 1435 01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:21,720 Speaker 2: no way to do that, and that'll be okay. There's 1436 01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:22,759 Speaker 2: absolutely no way. 1437 01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:23,920 Speaker 3: To killing pedophiles. 1438 01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:28,640 Speaker 2: My sure, what's killing but people? And my pedophiles is 1439 01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:30,519 Speaker 2: probably a bad ITEA. I don't, I don't. 1440 01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:32,080 Speaker 3: I don't allow that. 1441 01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:33,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 1442 01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:37,080 Speaker 3: Well, what you'll get to hear what we come up with. 1443 01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:40,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna be spending a week figuring out to 1444 01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,800 Speaker 2: introduce next week's episodes. 1445 01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:45,640 Speaker 1: My me, but we record them tomorrow, so really, you 1446 01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:47,680 Speaker 1: only have twenty four hours. 1447 01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:49,200 Speaker 2: All right, fuck fuck fuck. 1448 01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:55,880 Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 1449 01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,840 Speaker 1: Or more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 1450 01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,920 Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the 1451 01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:05,360 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.