WEBVTT - Project 2025 Is Real. And It’s Happening Now. 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:05.160 During the campaign, there was polling that showed twenty twenty 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:07.000 five was deeply on popular, but people just didn't believe 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.880 that Trump would do these things. They said, if Trump did, 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.560 you know, band abortion entirely, for example, I wouldn't like that. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:14.640 But there's no chance he's going to do this. And 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:16.200 there's a whole list of those things. So I think 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.319 when people understand what it actually means, there will be 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.439 more pushback. But if they see it simply as a 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:24.720 kind of fuzzy pro family agenda, they may underestimate just 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:26.240 how sweeping and radical it is. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:30.880 Hi, everyone, and welcome back to this episode of Next 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:35.040 Question You Know. Project twenty twenty five is a nearly 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.440 one thousand page document that is designed to serve as 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:45.520 a blueprint for transforming American society. Most people, of course, 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.920 heard of it prior to the election, but many people 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.760 hadn't and still haven't read it, and those who did 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.880 read it thought there was no way in hell that 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.720 Donald Trump would actually implement it. Well guess what he has. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.200 So here are the questions, what does Project twenty twenty 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.000 five actually say, what does it mean? And is there 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.199 any way to stop what seems to be this runaway train. 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.120 David Graham, who's a writer for the Atlantic, has written 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.760 a new book called The Project. How Project twenty twenty 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.839 five is reshaping America, and he's here to answer those 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:35.040 questions and more. I think you're one of the few people, David, 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:40.759 who has read Project twenty twenty five's Mandate for Leadership 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.480 cover to cover. It's almost one thousand pages, nine hundred 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:49.360 and twenty two. So, in broad strokes, what was your 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:51.640 takeaway after reading the whole damn thing? 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.080 Right? You know, I'd read bits and pieces during the campaign, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:55.640 but I hadn't read the whole thing, And when I 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.520 actually sat down to read it, I was pretty astonished. 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.320 It was a richer document that I had realized. It 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.080 was more radical, it was more interesting. There are these 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.880 conflicts in it, and it seemed like such a roadmap 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.320 to what we would expect from a Trump administration. And 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.119 I think that's exactly how it's played out. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.280 You were initially somewhat skeptical of the hype around Project 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.520 twenty twenty five, but as you said, it was much 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.920 more radical than you thought. Can you tell us more 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.679 about that and what you ascertained that made you think 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.240 Jesus this is pretty serious stuff. 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.799 You know, we get these kind of policy blueprints every 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.040 four years, and often there are just kind of lists 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.360 of policies people want, and that's what I thought this 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.640 was too. But this is really a whole scheme for 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:41.520 remaking the federal government and then remaking American society. I 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.079 think it's ambitions are just much broader, and it has methods. 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:45.720 I mean, they thought about how to make these things 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.760 happen in a way that the typical policy wishless just 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:49.200 doesn't have. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:54.280 Like what I mean, tell us how they hope to 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.400 implement it to get widespread acceptance, and we'll talk about 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.480 its popularity or left up later, but it's much more 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.240 give us a little more meat to understand the methodology 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:07.760 they hope to incorporate. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.560 Yeah, I mean, the centerpiece is taking charge of the 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.080 federal government and taking charge of the executive branch in 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.639 a way that no president has before. So they lay 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.080 out how to take over the Justice Department, how to 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.080 use the Office of Management and Budget, which is you know, 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.560 kind of a dusty agency as the command center for 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:25.440 taking charge of the federal government, how to use the 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.840 Office of Presidential Personnel, and then to sort of accrue 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.320 presidential power by taking over independent regulatory agencies, so things 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:36.160 like you know, the FCC or the FTC. Traditionally, you know, 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.400 they work relatively independently. They're appointed by the president and 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.480 their leaders, but then they do their own thing. They 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.320 think that's unconstitutional. They want Trump to be directing those things. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.520 And once you have control of all of them, and 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:47.760 you start to push civil servants out as well, you 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:49.880 can make the federal government do what you want to do, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.119 and that includes creating this very conservative vision of society. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:59.680 Donald Trump during the campaign obviously distanced himself from Project 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.360 twenty five, but it seems like he is in it 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.640 hole hog, isn't it. Talk about the difference between how 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:13.680 he talked about this document and how it's been implemented 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:18.440 already during the course of his still young administration second administration. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.159 You know, there's something like seventy contributors to Project twenty 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.760 twenty five. A quarter of them were in his first administration. 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.040 Some of them were cabinet members. Russell Vote, wh's kind 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.359 of the intellectual architect, was the head of OMB in 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.080 the first administration. He is again. He led Trump's policy 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.520 committee during the twenty twenty four campaign. So the idea 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.480 that there was really any distance I think was always 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:38.920 very flimsy. But now that he's in office, he's put 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.839 these people in top positions and he's followed their prescriptions 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.200 really closely. So, you know, if you look at the 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.040 executive orders we saw in the first week of the presidency, 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.680 thirty seven of forty seven I believe, according to Bloomberg, 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.200 were directly from Project twenty twenty five. He's following the 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:53.800 blueprint right as it's laid out. 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.680 Tell me more about this Russell Vogue guy, because if 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.680 he is sort of the intellectual archaet of it, tell 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.719 me about his background, his philosophy, and how he has 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:11.720 imbued this document or this blueprint with his own ideas. 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.360 So votes an interesting guy because he comes from this 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.880 sort of traditional conservative, socially conservative, fiscally conservative wing of 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.120 the Republican Party, and he worked for Phil Graham and 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.279 the Senate. He came up through these these traditional channels. 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.719 Doesn't seem like naturally a Trump guy because he is 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.800 so socially conservative. But he got into the first Trump 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.960 administration and he found himself really frustrated by what he saw. 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.920 He saw civil servants, he felt who were obstructing Trump. 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.440 But he also saw political appointees who he thought were lazy, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:39.800 or who were rhinos, or who were you know, trying 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.360 to obstruct Trump for whatever their ends were. And he 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.120 didn't want that to happen again. And so he designs 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.120 Projects twenty twenty five as a way to have staff 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:49.320 who would be on board, who'd be trained and ready 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.920 to go, and as a set of methods to sort 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.440 of drive through that opposition and to bring about the 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.520 you know, the Christian nation that he says we should be. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.760 And we're founded as you who shocked. 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.679 I know you've read bits and pieces before you wrote 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.440 this book, but when you read it in its totality, 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.520 what was your reaction in general as just an American 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.400 citizen in terms of what they were trying to do. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:18.520 I was amazed how radical it was. I mean, this 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.200 is just a program for all of society, and they 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.080 want to change so many basically, you know, want to 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.359 change the way your children are taught and what you 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.800 get in classrooms. They want to change the way you 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:32.080 interact with your healthcare providers. They want to affect really everything, 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.400 every part of life. And I think I hadn't realized 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:35.880 that I mean, I remember reading through it and I 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.320 kept like, you know, walking out of my office to 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.440 my wife, like you won't believe what I'm reading here? 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.919 Can you believe that they're saying this? And you know, 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:44.880 I think it is. You know, it's important to understand 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:46.640 just how systematic it is. And that's what I didn't 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.640 grasp until I read the whole thing, and what I 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:49.880 hope I can convey in the book. 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.080 Well, you know, I'm curious if you saw it also 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:58.440 as a blueprint for autocracy, because you know, it sounds 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.800 both like it wants to go back in time right 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:07.920 and remove what most people see as progress or some 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.800 people see as progress in terms of equal rights, the 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:16.720 role of women, and marginalized communities, opportunities, you know, being 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:23.840 more full throated participants in American life, and autocracy. So 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.720 where do you see it philosophically? Landing it's a melding 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.000 of those two things, you know. So some of the 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.560 ideas here are things that we've heard from the Republican 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.920 Party or from social concertis for a long time. And 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.120 I think what sets this apart is the willingness to 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.480 use the federal government as a kind of coercive force 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.360 This is not a sort of, you know, Ronald Reagan 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:45.880 limited government idea. This is about accruing a lot of 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:49.040 presidential power and using it to, you know, to build 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.000 the society people want in a way that the Republican 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.920 Party has traditionally stood against. We'll talk about the Christian 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.840 nationalism part in a moment, because I don't want to 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.200 make listeners viewers think that I just was like glossing 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:04.960 that over. But first I want to talk about some 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:09.920 of the goals of Project twenty twenty five. They're four 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.760 of them, and let's talk about them. One is restore 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.080 the family is the centerpiece of American life and protect 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:21.760 our children. What does that mean exactly? From their vantage point. 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:23.920 It means a whole range of things. So it means, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:28.480 for example, abolishing the Department of Education and giving parents 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.040 and giving religious organizations much more ConTroll over education, moving 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.280 things away from the public school system and towards private 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.760 schools and religious schools. It means banning abortion nationwide. It 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.200 means defining gender or defining sex as male and female 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.400 with nothing between, sort of pushing trans people into the shadows. 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.960 It means using things like welfare to encourage nuclear families 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:55.040 to encourage marriage and fatherhood. They lay out basically how 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.520 to use every department of the government as a way 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:58.400 to achieve these things. 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:05.000 How much of the document feels like, either blatantly or implicitly, 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:10.720 a backlash against progressive sort of liberal thinking in general. 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.840 Does it go without saying or is it specified within 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:16.280 Project twenty twenty five. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.640 It is specified at places. And they talk a lot 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:20.600 about wokeness. They don't tell us what they mean by that, 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.880 but they're clearly reacting against something. And in statements, you know, 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.920 in interviews elsewhere, Russell Vote and Paul Danz, who is 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.080 sort of his partner in building this, have talked about 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.120 their reaction to how society has changed, and they're feeling that, 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.160 you know, Christianity is being sidelined, and then the America 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.560 that they know and love is being taken away from 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:39.640 them and they want to reclaim it. 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.120 What do they think of separation of church and state. 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:43.160 They don't believe in it. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:43.640 They don't. 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.080 It's simply not a factor. I mean, they say that 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.800 the government shouldn't establish a church, but they say this 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:50.600 is a Christian nation, it was founded as a Christian nation, 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.520 and it should be Vote speaking to Charlie Kirk a 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.560 couple of years ago said, you know, the left uses 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.200 all these pejoratives for us. They call me a Christian nationalist, 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.640 But unlike a lot of the pejoratives, I think that's true. 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:02.560 I'm a Christian, I'm a nationalist. I think we should 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:03.280 have a Christian nation. 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.680 Another goal is to dismantle the administrative state and return 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.600 self governance to the American people. What does that mean exactly? 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.880 So, the administrative state is basically the executive branch as 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.559 we know it. We have hundreds of thousands of civil 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.240 servants who, you know, we interact with them when we're 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.880 dealing with social security. They are forecasting our weather, they 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.559 are sending grants to our schools, all of these things, 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.720 and they operate in a sort of semi autonomous way. 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.800 They're non political, they stay in the government no matter 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.079 what happens. They're also these independent agencies that act sort 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.679 of outside of the president's purview. They want to demolish 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.080 all of that. They think the president should have full 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.400 control of anyone who works at the executive branch, and 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.439 those people should be basically working towards his political goals, 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:47.559 whatever those might be. And so they want to lay 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.040 off civil servants. We've obviously seen a lot of that already, 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.120 and I will see more of it. They want to 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.960 convert other civil servants to being political appointees, and they 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.400 want to with you know, get rid of these guard 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.440 reels we've traditionally seen, like Justice Department independence example. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.480 Scary, right, I mean, you're talking about it so matter 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:12.079 of factly, but you know, most civil servants aren't necessarily 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:16.959 there to push an ideological agenda. They're really there to 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:21.920 keep the government going right, the wheels of government operating right. 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.839 So it's almost a sense of paranoia that there are 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.120 dark forces lurking. I guess that's why they call it 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.240 the deep state, but dark forces lurking everywhere that have 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.960 a very concrete political agenda that they're trying to push. 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.760 But it really that's not really the case of government workers, 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:42.840 Isn't it exactly right? 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.080 It's not. I mean, you know, there are surveys that 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.960 show that government workers lean left in their politics, but 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:49.880 most of the things they do simply are not political. 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.640 And I think, you know a lot of Americans gripe 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.640 about bureaucrats, but when I read the prescriptions here, I 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:59.200 think is making these people, you know, appointed on the 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.199 basis of their politics, on their loyalty to the present. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:02.439 Is that going to make services better or is it 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.040 going to make things worse? It seems to me it's 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:04.960 likely to make things worse. 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.120 The third thing is defend our nation's sovereignty, borders and 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.359 bounty against global threats. Help me understand that. 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:14.520 It's a little opaque. 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.280 I think that means a couple Also, what is bounty. 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.520 Right, It's a lofty term they want to use to 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.240 make this seem maybe a little bit. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.360 More patriotic or old school or something. 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.480 I think that means first of all, borders, so it 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.000 means closing the border. It means reducing immigration, both legal 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.080 and I legal. There's a sense that there are too 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.280 many people coming into the country through whatever means. So 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.520 that means fewer visas, making it harder to immigrate. Those 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:41.920 are things that they value. And it also means a 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.160 kind of existential conflict with China. So throughout you see 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.880 the sense that China is a threat that Americans don't grasp. 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:50.560 They don't see how big a threat China is, and 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.000 it has to be confronted economically, culturally, and if necessary, 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:55.040 militarily as well. 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.480 And finally, secure are God given individual rights to live 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:05.640 freely what our Constitution calls the blessings of liberty. So 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.720 how do they view liberty because a lot of people 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:12.880 think that liberties are being taken away, not granted to 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:14.119 American citizens. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.480 That's right. There's this chilling quote where Kevin Roberts, who's 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.640 the head of the Heritage Foundation which convened this, says you, 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.600 liberty is doing not just what we want, but what 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:24.600 we ought. So it's libert or willing. And I mean, 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:26.280 this is not liberty. And I think the way most 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.880 people understand it, it's using the federal government to tell 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:29.600 you how to live. 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.800 Where do you see the germ of this coming from. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:40.280 Obviously we talked about a backlash against I guess pluralism, globalization, 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:47.800 equal rights right, and I think gender roles, DEI, affirmative action, 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.800 et cetera, et cetera, trying to level the playing field 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:59.240 in our society. But what else is really fomented this? 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.120 In your view having read. 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.800 It, yeah, I think it has a very long history. 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:09.280 And so you know DEI is a boogeyman often in 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.120 the document, but you go further back and their concerns 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.199 about you know, Title nine, for example, and they want 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.040 to use Title nine to enforce certain priorities. But also 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.000 they're very skeptical of it. They're skeptical of the Equal 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:24.200 Employment Opportunity Commission, they're skeptical of the New Deal itself. So, 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.760 you know, it's a sense that over the last century 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.280 things have happened to change the way America works that 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.000 have taken us away from the Christian founding. 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You talk about Russell 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:26.800 Vote casually mentioned he's a self described Christian nationalist, So 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:32.520 can you talk about what Christian nationalists believe and how 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.920 his principles bled into this document. 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.440 You know, they believe that this is a Christian nation. 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:39.200 They believe that. 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.480 Well, can you explain why they believe that? 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:43.320 You know, they look at the founders and they say, 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.800 many of the founders were Christians. They see language about God, 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.720 and they simply believe that since, you know, since European 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.600 settlers arrived in the in what is now the United States, 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.840 they would bring Christian ideas and that is the foundation 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.680 of the country. And they think that that has always 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.440 been in the DNA. But we've started to drift away 0:15:59.440 --> 0:15:59.680 from that. 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.840 I mean, so, how does this fit in with sort 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:10.960 of Donald Trump's seeming obsession with anti Semitism and sort 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.400 of Jewish American citizens. 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.280 You know, they often use this language about a Judeo 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.000 Christian society, and they talk about, for example, a biblically 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.920 grounded vision of the family. And so it's a little 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.760 bit broader, but very much it's focused around Christianity. So, 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.320 for example, you know, they think that there should be 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.680 all people should have a sabbath. You know, they should 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:33.360 not have to work for at least a day a week, 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:34.760 and if they do, they should have to get time 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:36.440 and a half. This is an idea that maybe could 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.120 have appeal across the spectrum, but it's phrasing these very 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.640 religious ways, and they say, we assume this would be Sunday, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.280 but it could, for example, be Friday evening to Saturday 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.880 evening if for somebody of a different faith. So there's 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.040 a little bit of accommodation. But the norm is very 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.520 much Christianity, and so much of the policy stems from Christianity. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.640 Can you talk about the dark side of Christian nationalism 0:16:55.800 --> 0:17:01.400 for people who are perhaps unaware of the sort of 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.560 nefarious ramifications of this kind of ideology. 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.160 I mean, it's very much about telling people how to live, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.560 and so it means shutting down abortion rights. It means 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.800 pushing women towards motherhood and out of the workplace. Not 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.080 out of the workplace, but away from the workplace. It 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.200 means knocking down, you know that many of the changes 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.760 we have seen in the last few decades of giving 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.960 women more leeway and more rights. It means discouraging things 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.960 like divorce. It means schools that are tutoring children in 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.480 biblical principles and that are not necessarily teaching things like evolution. 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:35.720 So I think it's a you know, there are a 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.520 lot of ideas that are not popular, and it's a 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:39.919 very totalizing way to approach. 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.480 Life, but it is popular in some quarters. Can you 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:47.240 talk about where Project twenty twenty five resonated and the 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:54.320 segment of the population who might embrace this, if not wholeheartedly, 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:56.960 then half heartedly. 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.159 Yeah, you know, I think that this vision of society, 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.320 and this the kind of backlash we're talking about, is 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.920 really core to Donald Trump's appeal. It is people who 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.959 feel like they are losing status in society. They feel like, 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.600 you know, a white man in particular, don't have the 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.080 same kind of status they once did. The Christians are persecuted, 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.280 that white people are persecuted. And for those people, Donald 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:19.560 Trump is very popular. They want to see this kind 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.320 of vision and they're willing to follow a plan that 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.439 offers some of these things. Now, I do think that 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.240 that's a little bit. I think it's a bit of 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.800 a shallow appeal. I think people have this really emotional 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.240 connection to it, but when they get to some of 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:32.520 the details of Project twenty twenty five, I don't think 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.000 they're going to be as fond of some of them. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.040 What do you mean emotional appeal on principle for some 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:40.760 of these ideas. 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.639 I think that just the concept that that something's been 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.200 taken from you. We're going to put things back the 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.800 way they were at some point, and this is often 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.359 left quite, you know, a little bit vague. At some 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.200 point things started to change in this country and they're 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.200 not the way they once were, and this is often done. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.399 It's kind of vague way, it's kind of a new window. 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.240 And what do you think they're talking about. 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.320 Well, I think they have to be studiously they because 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.600 no one wants to say things were better before the 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.440 Civil Rights Act, when on occasion we've seen politicians say 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.760 that it has gone very poorly for them, so they 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.600 have to sort of cloak it in this vagueness. This 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.000 is why when we say make America great again, Trump 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.720 never tells us exactly when it was that America was 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:16.800 great that he wants to go back to. 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.359 Well, let's talk about sort of you talked about the 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:24.800 inherent sexism. What about the inherent racism of this document? 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:30.560 Clearly it is anti immigrant, right unless they're white immigrants, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:35.399 white Christian immigrants, right, So can you talk about how 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:44.399 you interpreted the inherent racism that these people incorporated in 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:46.200 Project twenty twenty five. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.240 I think was a real paternalistic attitude and a lot 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.640 of the document. You know, they say that we need 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:53.919 to restore the family, and they say in you know, 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.680 for example, in poor black communities, they're not allowed enough 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.680 fathers living in the home. We need to encourage that. 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.160 You have in the chap on the Department of Housing 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.800 and Urban Development a sense that, you know, things like 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.399 housing vouchers or public housing are creating a culture of 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.840 dependency and people are not willing to help themselves. So 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:11.479 in some ways, these are things we've heard from the right. 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.040 I want to say, and I think there's some people, 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.800 even who are moderate who can say I could get 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.080 on board with the need to have more involved fathers 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:22.240 in all communities. 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.400 Back Obama was a big proponent of right. 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.480 So at its face, it's not that offensive. But is 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:33.719 it imbued with more sort of racist dog whistles or 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:39.879 innuendo that would be interpreted by the average person. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.440 I think a lot of that is not necessarily there. 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.960 They do keep us a very sort of color blind 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:46.800 approach at a lot of places. But what you see is 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.960 a disparate impact on people. If you start directing aid 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.520