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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of Iheartrading.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

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Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer Max, the

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Speaker 4: Free Train Williams. Most importantly, you are here. That makes

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Speaker 4: this the stuff they don't want you to know. Fellow

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Speaker 4: conspiracy realist. Tonight's episode is not pleasant. There's no two

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Speaker 4: ways about it. It's a natural follow up to some

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Speaker 4: of the previous explorations we've had on the nature of

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Speaker 4: the Internet, technology and online communication. We've talked about this

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Speaker 4: at length in the past. Base human tendencies tend to

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Speaker 4: drive innovation. I mean, war, for example, almost always leads

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Speaker 4: to tremendous scientific breakthroughs. But one thing we don't talk

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Speaker 4: about as often is how it's a reciprocal relationship. You know,

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Speaker 4: technology also exacerbates and affects those natural human tendencies. I mean,

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Speaker 4: some scientific breakthroughs also lead to war. Is very much

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Speaker 4: a two way street. We could say this about any tendency,

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Speaker 4: including the human drive, for reproduction, for lust. From the

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Speaker 4: early days of film to the rivalry of VHS and Betamax,

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Speaker 4: sex has always been a great decider of technology. Do

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Speaker 4: you guys remember hearing about the Beta Max VHS thing.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I mean, yeah, I guess just in terms of

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Speaker 5: like the battle for supremacy of format.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was ultimately the adult entertainment industry that decided that. Ultimately,

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Speaker 4: the reason the reason VHS tapes ascended or VHS technology

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Speaker 4: was because it was that that format the industry chose.

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Speaker 4: And we're exploring a very dark and disturbing aspect of

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Speaker 4: technology and sex. We need to say at the very top,

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Speaker 4: this is important information. It is quite disturbing. This is

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Speaker 4: not for everybody. Tonight's show contains descriptions of sexual material

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Speaker 4: and abuse. However, we believe it is mission critical and

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Speaker 4: as always, there is stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, we're just gonna do Let's do it this way.

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Speaker 2: This episode is about porn. If you do not want

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Speaker 2: to listen to an episode about porn, turn this one off.

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Speaker 3: If you've got kids in their teen plus.

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Speaker 2: Just you know, if this episode is just like rolling

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Speaker 2: as you're listening, or you know, you've you're just continually

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Speaker 2: playing episodes. This is the one, so turn it off

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Speaker 2: if you don't want to listen to information about porn.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts.

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Speaker 4: The Internet and sex have always been intertwined, kind of

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Speaker 4: like lovers.

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Speaker 3: You could say.

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Speaker 4: You could check out our Dead Internet Theory episode for

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Speaker 4: more on the origin of the modern Internet. You can

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Speaker 4: get real deep in the weeds if you go to

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Speaker 4: our pal Jonathan Strickland show Tech Stuff. But for our

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Speaker 4: purposes today, we need to realize that at the beginning

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Speaker 4: of the World Wide Web, very few people outside of

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Speaker 4: maybe the military industrial complex and the tech world in academia,

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Speaker 4: very few John and Jane Q public types realized how

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Speaker 4: big this would be, that it would be an information

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Speaker 4: revolution that would make it possible for a single person

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Speaker 4: or group or government to communicate with billions of other

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Speaker 4: entities near instantly. They also may not have realized it

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Speaker 4: would become one of the horniest inventions in human history,

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Speaker 4: but sex was an inherent piece of the equation early on.

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Speaker 4: There's a person that we're leaning on a lot in

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Speaker 4: Tonight's exploration Fantastic. Author and journalist Samantha Cole wrote a

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Speaker 4: book called How Sex Changed the internet and the Internet

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Speaker 4: changed sex and unexpected history. Cole delves into this narrative

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Speaker 4: that I think is tacitly acknowledged but not widely expressed,

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Speaker 4: and maybe this is how we get into it. I

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Speaker 4: was not aware of this. Cole found through intense research

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Speaker 4: that the first form of quote unquote pornography shared online

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Speaker 4: was likely the equivalent of typing eight zero zero eight

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Speaker 4: five on a calculator.

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Speaker 3: Yeah boobbs, Yeah, sorry.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, but you can you can create pretty complex

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Speaker 2: images with ASKI. It's just all the different characters that

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Speaker 2: you can potentially type with a keyboard into a mah

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Speaker 2: and you can create pictures.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, by spacing things out and you know, distributing various

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Speaker 5: characters in rows and columns, you know, over the course

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Speaker 5: of a giant kind of block of this text. And honestly,

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Speaker 5: it's kind of come back in a sort of you know,

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Speaker 5: retro Internet kind of way. You know, the Internet loves

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Speaker 5: to throw back, and you see these in meme form

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Speaker 5: or in like text form. People will text you these

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Speaker 5: things sometimes. I've definitely seen a resurgence in the sort

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Speaker 5: of horny asky art of late.

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Speaker 4: Ask you ar yeah, and this is this is a

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Speaker 4: great point because if we think about it like digital graffiti,

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Speaker 4: how some of the first written scripts or rooms where

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Speaker 4: things like Vugner was here, then we see we see

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Speaker 4: this pursuing the same kind of process. It only grew,

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Speaker 4: as you said that in complexity over time. And Samantha

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Speaker 4: Cole also points out that sex or that human impulse

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Speaker 4: continues to drive innovation on the Internet. And so it

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Speaker 4: might surprise I almost said some of us, but it

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Speaker 4: might surprise no one to learn that some of the

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Speaker 4: biggest most popular sites in the world today are straight

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Speaker 4: up pornography. In porn Hub, by the way, is one

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Speaker 4: of the number one things. It's I guess it's old

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Speaker 4: for the Internet now, but in the grand scheme of things,

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Speaker 4: it's very recent. It was launched on May twenty fifth,

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Speaker 4: two thousand and seven, by a web developer and foosball

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Speaker 4: legend by the way, named Matt Keezer. He created it

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Speaker 4: as a website within a larger company called inter Hub,

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Speaker 4: and there's a lot more history there. But the guys

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Speaker 4: who ultimately the guys who founded the site brassers, which

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Speaker 4: is kind of a pun. Once you get into the weeds,

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Speaker 4: they it's a it's like pronouncing brothers with an accent.

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Speaker 4: But they met via foosball, which I was not aware

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Speaker 4: of it. You don't really equalize there, miss ball.

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Speaker 5: Is there a certain form of nominative determinism in the

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Speaker 5: name Keyser?

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Speaker 3: It sure is close to skeezee? I don't know.

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Speaker 5: It's neither here nor there, but yeah, I mean maybe

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Speaker 5: this individual didn't have a full, you know, vision of

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Speaker 5: where this would go. We're just trying to make a

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Speaker 5: quick buck, but it certainly evolved or devolved should we say,

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Speaker 5: into something entirely monstrous.

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Speaker 4: One could argue, yeah, yeah, I'm tivoted to agree with

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Speaker 4: you there in old because we could ask if Keyser

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Speaker 4: was simply doing something that history would prove inevitable. Right,

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Speaker 4: YouTube came to the forefront or YouTube launched in two

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Speaker 4: thousand and five, and if you take the larger view

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Speaker 4: of history, it seems statistically certain that a sex centric

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Speaker 4: version of YouTube would follow. And that's what porn hub

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Speaker 4: is slash was. Viewers would find adult content from a

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Speaker 4: growing list of categories.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: These categories are based on any number of things. And then,

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Speaker 4: in another like YouTube mimicry situation, you could, as a

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Speaker 4: user choose to upload and share your own videos.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's go just go back a little bit

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Speaker 2: just to consider some of the most popular websites for

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Speaker 2: pornography prior to this tubing, if you will. They were

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Speaker 2: paid for sites, many of them where you would watch

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Speaker 2: videos that were created and uploaded by someone who was

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Speaker 2: a porn producer, right, whether that's on the very high

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Speaker 2: end or the very low end, in all the various.

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Speaker 3: Categories and everything in between.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there were also a lot of free sites you

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Speaker 2: could go to that you would you would find a

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Speaker 2: lot of the same content but just in a free way,

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Speaker 2: or an older version of the same content that had

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Speaker 2: been around for a long time, but you could access

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Speaker 2: it for free now.

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Speaker 5: And just to say too, like, prior to this, access

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Speaker 5: to pornographic materials was pretty much limited to magazines that

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Speaker 5: would be tucked away in a very specific siloed room

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Speaker 5: in either magazine shops or bookshops or video shops or whatever,

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Speaker 5: and there'd be cameras on it and like a whole

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Speaker 5: little secret, skeezy kind of door that you had to

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Speaker 5: go through. And stores or online retailers that would sell

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Speaker 5: DVDs from companies like I guess, Vivid maybe or different

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Speaker 5: ones Wicked. I think as was a really popular one.

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Speaker 5: But I don't know if you guys were aware of this,

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Speaker 5: but I mean those DVDs were really, really, really expensive,

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Speaker 5: like sixty seventy dollars sometimes, So this is sort of

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Speaker 5: like a great democratization of pornographic material.

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Speaker 6: And you got alo.

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Speaker 5: I wonder what those publishers felt about their very pricey

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Speaker 5: intellectual property getting uploaded to these tube sites for free.

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Speaker 3: They hated it. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: New York Magazine has a great piece on this from

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Speaker 4: twenty eleven by a journalist named Ben Wallace, and Wallace

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Speaker 4: walks through this like, you know, you would also find

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Speaker 4: VHS tapes before you would find like the DVDs, right,

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Speaker 4: And so that move from physical media to online online accessibility.

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Speaker 4: At first, it started, per Wallace, It started with the

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Speaker 4: idea that it was relatively simple to build a website,

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Speaker 4: and people would put up a web page that linked

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Speaker 4: to other adult websites, and if you clicked on it,

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Speaker 4: you would get thumbnails at first, right, and that computer

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Speaker 4: virus yeah, Thumbnails and a computer virus, yeah, and you

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Speaker 4: would be sites still had the Achilles Heel of online content,

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Speaker 4: which is that they relied on ad revenue to.

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Speaker 3: Make a profit.

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Speaker 4: And then it evolved, as we're saying to these very quickly,

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Speaker 4: it evolved to video content. In the summer of two

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Speaker 4: thousand and six alone, three different sites launched that would

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Speaker 4: things that would become kind of a triumvirate for a

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Speaker 4: time of streaming pornography, Porno Tube, Red Tube, and u Porn,

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Speaker 4: and they were flooded with free content. A lot to

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Speaker 4: your point, Noel, a lot of the content on there

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Speaker 4: was sometimes legally licensed for a very small amount of

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Speaker 4: money because the old school production companies like Vivid Entertainment

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Speaker 4: for instance, did not recognize how big the web would become.

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Speaker 4: And then a lot more of it was pirated from

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Speaker 4: those paid sites, those paywalt sites, and they just started saying, Okay,

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Speaker 4: we're going to make our money by keeping users on

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Speaker 4: the sites and clicking through banner ads, which is something

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Speaker 4: that continues today. I mean, please check out Samantha Cole's

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Speaker 4: book if you want to learn more. It is probably

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Speaker 4: one of the best works on this evolution of the

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Speaker 4: Internet and sex.

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Speaker 5: And I'm just going to add, like now, I mean,

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Speaker 5: there's so many mechanisms that are kind of codified for

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Speaker 5: getting stuff taken down or filters or like bots that

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Speaker 5: scan for you know, owned intellectual property, and you know,

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Speaker 5: we'll automatically pull things down or temporarily pull things down

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Speaker 5: until the poster can prove that they have the rights

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Speaker 5: to the material. But back in these days, it was

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Speaker 5: the wild West man and especially some of these less

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Speaker 5: Internet savvy companies, they probably didn't even know the stuff

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Speaker 5: was out there. They didn't even know they were having

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Speaker 5: their lunch eaten by these new companies.

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Speaker 4: Right Why possibly in New York magazine, just to put

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Speaker 4: this part in New York Magazine. The reason that while

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Speaker 4: this article is important is because it depicts exactly what

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Speaker 4: Noel is describing earlier, which is the previous models of

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Speaker 4: distribution of pornography. We're at av in the Adult Video

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Speaker 4: that the Adult Industry Awards. They were at AVN and

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Speaker 4: there were a lot of protests about what was happening,

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Speaker 4: and they were saying, people are stealing our work. So

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Speaker 4: they identified this early on, but a few years too late.

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Speaker 2: I want to make some point here. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if I can do it correctly, but let's just go here.

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Speaker 2: Imagine the different specialized I was going to say kinks,

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Speaker 2: but the things that people are into right genres.

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Speaker 3: Let's say perhaps you know, I don't know, just.

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Speaker 2: To make a point about what we were saying at

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Speaker 2: the top, ben about how the Internet really changed the

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Speaker 2: way this stuff functions. Because if you were back in

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Speaker 2: the day interested in a specific thing, you would have

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Speaker 2: to find that specific thing and you would go on

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Speaker 2: a hunt, and it would not be easy to find

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Speaker 2: let's just say, like bondage or something like that, right,

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Speaker 2: you would have to go to a very specialized place

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Speaker 2: probably to even find that content, like physical place to

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Speaker 2: find that content.

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Speaker 3: And then the.

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Speaker 2: Way the Internet changed that is you they started using

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Speaker 2: like meta tags, right, and stuff for search and revolutionized search.

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Speaker 2: The stuff that you use now with Google or with

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Speaker 2: you know, Duck dugo or whatever you search for, a

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Speaker 2: lot of that was revolutionized through some of these sites

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Speaker 2: in making these very distinct categories and tagging every piece

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Speaker 2: of content and just making it a robust system rather

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Speaker 2: than just a simple search for a couple keywords that

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Speaker 2: are in you know, a title somewhere, like just putting

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Speaker 2: that stuff deep within the content.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And there's an argument that could be made, sometimes

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Speaker 4: perhaps by more conservative forces, that in doing that, in

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Speaker 4: surfacing the availability or surfacing the prominence of that that

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Speaker 4: these systems and we'll get into the data mining later,

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Speaker 4: that these systems have radicalized or pushed people toward things

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Speaker 4: that they may not have normally engaged in or even

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Speaker 4: knew about, especially when we're considering underage users of the Internet.

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Speaker 4: But the real trippy thing, and we're talking about this

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Speaker 4: a bit off air, is when you go to and

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Speaker 4: no judgment, folks, when you go to if you go

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Speaker 4: to free pornography sites that you would just visit on

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Speaker 4: the Internet very easily with a search engine of your choice,

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Speaker 4: you will see what appears to be a panopoly of

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Speaker 4: distinct brands and entities, but it is exactly like how

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Speaker 4: when you walk through a grocery store, you'll see all

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Speaker 4: these products advertised, like there are a million different varieties

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Speaker 4: as cereal. Right, they appear to be separate, but in reality,

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Speaker 4: the monopolization is still occurring. It occurs in every profitable industry,

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Speaker 4: just like how one or two companies will own most

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Speaker 4: of the cereal, one or two companies own most of

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Speaker 4: those seemingly autonomous pornography sites. There's one company in particular

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Speaker 4: that we're going to talk about, and that company, folks,

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Speaker 4: has been party to some very evil things.

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Speaker 2: And all they want to do is keep you on

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Speaker 2: their sites forever.

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Speaker 4: Evil things. We're going to pause for a word from

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Speaker 4: our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Back to pornhaw

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Speaker 4: one of the most popular adult content sites out there.

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Speaker 4: As of February of this year that we're recording twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty four, is the thirteenth most visited website on the planet.

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Speaker 4: And it makes me recall our earlier conversation about the

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Speaker 4: dead Internet theory. I think was you Noel who said

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Speaker 4: most people don't go to like destination websites. Things like

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Speaker 4: porn hub are the exception. But it's only one facet

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Speaker 4: of a much much larger enterprise, and it's a it's

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Speaker 4: a twisted tale to figure out who owns porn Hub.

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Speaker 5: It's interesting too, because at its heart, porn hub is

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Speaker 5: an aggregator, but it's gotten to the point where it's

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Speaker 5: so powerful that it's kind of aggregating all its own

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Speaker 5: stuff right under the guise of different genres and labels

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Speaker 5: and brands. But it's like, you know, the idea of

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Speaker 5: ge owning all of the TV networks or NBC at

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Speaker 5: the very least, you know, and you don't really think

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Speaker 5: about that because you're thinking, oh, I'm watching this network

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Speaker 5: and that's it's got its own distinct identity. But really,

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Speaker 5: the hand inside the puppet has always been ge hmmmmm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think that's a good comparison.

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Speaker 3: We know that.

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Speaker 4: We know just to get into this part with the

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Speaker 4: ownership three card Monty the Matroshka dol structure of ownership. Here,

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Speaker 4: after Matt Keezer and his foosball friends made porn Hub,

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Speaker 4: the parent company inter Hub was purchased by a German

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Speaker 4: national named Fabian Filman, who when he purchased it became

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Speaker 4: part of what's called the Manvin or Manwan conglomerate, which

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Speaker 4: was once called mind Geek. This reminds me of Blackwater,

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Speaker 4: like how Akadema Blackwater became Xi became Akademi or whatever

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Speaker 4: the order is.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was called mind Geek till very recently.

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Speaker 4: And now it's known as Alo Aylo. And we will

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Speaker 4: get to the Alo's still not the top of the chain.

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Speaker 4: We'll get to the real owner in this episode. The

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Speaker 4: real owner is not Fabian. He was arrested for tax

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Speaker 4: evasion at the end of twenty twelve. At that point

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Speaker 4: he was making an estimated one hundred million dollars US

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Speaker 4: per year from this empire. He paid a pretty hefty

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Speaker 4: fine and then he got a suspended sentence, but he

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Speaker 4: sold his stake in the company in twenty thirteen. And

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Speaker 4: this is also I think he was a programmer as well.

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Speaker 4: This is why it's different from some of these studios

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Speaker 4: of old because to your earlier point that you may met,

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Speaker 4: these sites have always taken a data intensive approach. That's

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Speaker 4: how they they weapon you could say they weaponize algorithms

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Speaker 4: to point to monitor everything about a user's interaction. Right,

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Speaker 4: even if you think that incognito browser can save you.

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Speaker 6: Sorry, can we.

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Speaker 5: Just really quickly acknowledge that the name change from mind

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Speaker 5: geek to our you joking man Win is for a

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Speaker 5: porn empire is a little comical. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 5: think that's necessarily what the word is intended, but the

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Speaker 5: pun is inescapable.

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Speaker 4: Man Win, jeez, they own a lot of things they also.

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Speaker 4: I was surprised to find that by two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 4: the company now going by alo or Ilo, they had

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Speaker 4: an estimated one hundred million unique viewers in their three

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Speaker 4: largest sites alone. For comparison, that's slightly less than one

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Speaker 4: third of the entire population of the United States. Any

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Speaker 4: other web company would kill for that, would literally murder

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Speaker 4: for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's get into that data just a little

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Speaker 2: bit more here, because think about all of the social

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Speaker 2: media companies that have algorithms that try and suggest things

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Speaker 2: to you based on what you've watched in the past,

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Speaker 2: how long you've watched those things, if you interact and comment,

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Speaker 2: if you like, if you share that, all of that stuff,

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Speaker 2: all of those actions and the tracking of you as

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Speaker 2: a person, all goes back to this industry because again,

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Speaker 2: all they wanted to do is keep you on their site,

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Speaker 2: so they needed to know exactly what you like and

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Speaker 2: what you click on and the you know, all of

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Speaker 2: the terms associated with the content you're watching, and it

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Speaker 2: all goes back to this.

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Speaker 4: Agreed And to what degree was alos like YouTube responsible

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Speaker 4: for content uploaded to these sites? That's one of the

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Speaker 4: big questions. Are they functioning as just a public stomping ground.

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Speaker 4: Do they bear any responsibility for what people are saying

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Speaker 4: in that digital space? Also, who actually owned or owns it?

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Speaker 3: We'll get to it.

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Speaker 4: But naturally, there were industry concerns about piracy, which we

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Speaker 4: mentioned earlier. But again, folks, here is the third disclaimor

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Speaker 4: for this episode. This is the deep water. This is

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Speaker 4: the disturbing stuff. You can turn back now, all right,

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Speaker 4: the worst stuff there was. There are worse things on

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Speaker 4: there than piracy. They are non consensual videos from hidden cameras,

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Speaker 4: you know, dressing rooms and department stores.

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Speaker 2: Or shoots that were arranged and agreed upon to look

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Speaker 2: like in some form or fashion, but then things go differently.

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Speaker 2: There's so many storyboard yeah.

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Speaker 5: Well, but there are also but you know, because that

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Speaker 5: is sort of a kink, there are also a lot

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Speaker 5: of videos that just mimic that make the production look

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Speaker 5: as though that's what you're seeing.

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Speaker 3: But I'm not making apologizing for any of them.

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Speaker 5: There are shoots that mimic that style, but it is

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Speaker 5: consensual and it is a production. But then there is

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Speaker 5: also the real deal.

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Speaker 2: It makes it almost impossible to know the difference between

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Speaker 2: one that is the problem to be that way and

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Speaker 2: one that is actually that way.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and then how does the casual user know the

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Speaker 4: difference And to continue down the to continue down the

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Speaker 4: litany of unclean things. There's also revenge pornography, which is

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Speaker 4: non consensual revenge pornography is when someone, in an attempt

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Speaker 4: to besmirch or humiliate or harass another person, they post

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Speaker 4: sexually compromising content of that person without their consent. There's

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Speaker 4: also documentation of sexual assault up to an including rape,

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Speaker 4: depictions of child sexual abuse material. Please don't call it

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Speaker 4: child pornography, folks, This quickly becomes an enormous issue. Journalists.

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Speaker 4: Multiple journalists found intensely disturbing proof that the company, the

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Speaker 4: Ultimate Owner Company, used various outlets, including porn Hub, to

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Speaker 4: profit from what very much was non consensual content, content

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Speaker 4: including sex trafficking. Samantha Cole, before she wrote the fantastic

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Speaker 4: book we mentioned earlier, she wrote several articles for Vice

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Speaker 4: and concluded in her investigations that Pornhub in particular profited

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Speaker 4: from quote content that has destroyed lives and continues to

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Speaker 4: do harm. Unfortunately, this was not just a single tragic example.

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Speaker 4: There are numerous examples of this, as well as numerous lawsuits.

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Speaker 5: Right and in January of twenty twenty one, there was

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Speaker 5: a class action lawsuit that was filed in Montreal calling

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Speaker 5: for anyone who had had pornographic photos or videos of

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Speaker 5: them shared on Pornhub since two thousand and seven to

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Speaker 5: come forward and be a party to this class.

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Speaker 4: And then there was another infamous series of cases that

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Speaker 4: involved what were called pornhub content partners, meaning there was

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Speaker 4: an outside company that may have their own website but

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Speaker 4: also widely distributed their content on these aggregators like you

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Speaker 4: were saying no, And one of the most infamous is

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Speaker 4: outfit called Girls Do Porn. It was a nasty, terrifying

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Speaker 4: story of assault, sex trafficking, horrific exploitation. They would fly

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Speaker 4: their victims out and essentially take them to the middle

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Speaker 4: of nowhere, pressure them into agreeing to have sex acts recorded,

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Speaker 4: and then they would lie to them actively about how

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Speaker 4: they would say, okay, well, this video is only going

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Speaker 4: to be distributed overseas to private collectors in places like

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Speaker 4: Australia or New Zealand. And in every single case this

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Speaker 4: was a premeditated falsehood. The producers, everyone involved except the

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Speaker 4: victim knew they were lying, and they would later take

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Speaker 4: this content that they had filmed and they would put

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Speaker 4: it up on their own website, the Girls Do Porn website,

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Speaker 4: and then they would put it on these other hubs

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Speaker 4: like porn Hub, and they would millions of people would

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Speaker 4: see this. The victims were getting docksed in the comments,

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Speaker 4: identified by their full name, their location, et cetera. They

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Speaker 4: were harassed at their jobs and their schools. Multiple women

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Speaker 4: said the harassment reached the point where they contemplated suicide.

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Speaker 4: Their lives were ruined, and when they were taken to

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Speaker 4: those rooms, that does count as trafficking, when they were

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Speaker 4: coerced into these acts.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, the pornography industry, if anyone you know,

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Speaker 5: followed the history of it or seen films like Boogie

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Speaker 5: Knights for example, certainly no stranger took acts of coercion,

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Speaker 5: and you know, having underage people, maybe runaways, you know,

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Speaker 5: taking advantage of people who are maybe on the skids.

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Speaker 5: But the very least it had it did evolve into

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Speaker 5: despite all of these problems and the problematic you know,

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Speaker 5: origins of the industry, there was more agency in those

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Speaker 5: days where at least, you know, you got paid. It

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Speaker 5: was a form of sex work that was legal, you know,

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Speaker 5: and and and you technically had protections, and you had

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Speaker 5: a way to earn an income.

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Speaker 3: And you were making this choice.

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Speaker 5: With this advent of this kind of stuff, it's like

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Speaker 5: you're adding all of the worst parts of the Internet,

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Speaker 5: the piracy, the removing that agency, and just absolutely victimizing

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Speaker 5: individuals and in a much more egregious one could argue,

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Speaker 5: way than what the you know, video porn industry was

437
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 5: like in the sixties and seventies.

438
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just to get into some of this coercion

439
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: and just how awful this is, I want to give

440
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: a quick example here from the New Yorker's piece the

441
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: Fight to hold porn Hub Accountable. It was written June thirteenth,

442
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. This is This is a little excerpt

443
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: from the article. It's about a woman named Rachel, who

444
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: as a child when she began to be coerced by

445
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: some unknown person that had a lot of personal information

446
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: about her and convinced her that for her own safety,

447
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: she had to start taking pictures of herself and videos

448
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: of herself doing things. She was fifteen years old when

449
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 2: this started happening. I'm gonna just read a bit of this, guys.

450
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 4: And this is by Sheila Kolhatakar.

451
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. Says Rachel stopped sleeping and spent her

452
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: days and nights searching for the videos. At this point,

453
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 2: she videos of her that she was taking and sending

454
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: to whoever this person was. They've showed up on pornhub,

455
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: and then they start going wide everywhere to all the

456
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: porn sites, and she cannot take them down, so she's

457
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: trying to figure it out.

458
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 3: So here it is.

459
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 2: She's spending her days and nights searching for these videos,

460
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: filling out dozens of removal requests, saying things like quote, Hi,

461
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: I'm underage and I had many videos and photos posted

462
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: me on here. This is in December twenty eighteen, writing

463
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: to pornhub. Keep getting re uploaded onto this site. I'm

464
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: only fifteen in them, and I don't have the links.

465
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do because every time I

466
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: get them removed, you keep allowing them to be uploaded,

467
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: and it's ruining my life. Porn humb responded to her,

468
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: asked for a link to each video, the username of

469
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: the accounts that were used to suploaded it, the title

470
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: of the video, and the file, the screenshots of the page.

471
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: Rachel went through and would spend like on a nightly routine,

472
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: send all of this information every time she could find one,

473
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: trying to get them taken down. But then videos would

474
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: sometimes get taken down, but not often, but they would

475
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: be uploaded in just a modified clip, so it's not

476
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: the same content that can be tracked and deleted again, right, so.

477
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: The scraper can't find it, Yeah, exact, which is the

478
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 4: same strategy used in YouTube piracy.

479
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

480
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: But somebody out there at this time is just doing it,

481
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: is just continually trying to get this content online and

482
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: profiting from its.

483
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 5: Or it's become popular content at this point, Yeah, is

484
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 5: being uploaded by others who have you know what I mean? Right,

485
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 5: that then it's impact with the things that are being

486
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 5: asked of this young woman. Impossible, These are impossible to do,

487
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 5: and you're basically putting the burden on the victim.

488
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 4: Yes, Yeah, which is very a very American strategy with business.

489
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 4: But this is as we'll find, this is not an

490
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 4: American based company. But there's also I'm glad you pointed

491
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 4: out that article in the New Yorker, which we'll go

492
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: back to as well, because it is a must read piece.

493
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 4: We see here a very dark version of what is

494
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 4: sometimes colloquially referred to as the streisand effect. Right, and

495
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 4: this this continues to go back to the Girls Do

496
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 4: Poorn owners. In twenty nineteen, they were found guilty of intimidating,

497
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 4: encoursing twenty two women into having sex on camera, and

498
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 4: lying to them. In December of twenty twenty, forty victims

499
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 4: filed a lawsuit against mind geek for a cavalcade of accusations,

500
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 4: including they said, you knew that your content partners were

501
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 4: up to these evil things, and you failed to moderate

502
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 4: the content circulating rampantly. Unfortunately, that child's story is not unique.

503
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 4: The lawsuit expanded to include fifty plaintiffs. It demanded more

504
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 4: than forty million in damages as well, in addition to

505
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 4: the money that a Loo or mind geek at the

506
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: time earned from hosting and promoting those videos. And October

507
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty one, those victims reached a settlement with

508
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 4: the parent company, and the company reacted. They said they

509
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 4: no longer post content without first passing it through human

510
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 4: and automated moderation.

511
00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 3: They also said, if.

512
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 4: You flag a v video, it is automatically disabled until

513
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 4: there's a review. And they said, since twenty twenty, we've

514
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 4: begun requiring users who upload content to provide a government

515
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 4: issued ID in order to be an uploader. However, there

516
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 4: are more and more examples that seem First off, that

517
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 4: is nice in theory, but is it actually deployed in practice.

518
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 4: And then secondly the removal is not as clear cut

519
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 4: as it should be. I mean, this takes us to

520
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 4: another underage case legist. Also consider the case of Rose Klemba,

521
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 4: who was assaulted by a group of men habitual sexual

522
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 4: predators when she was only fourteen years old. These men

523
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: who very much were premeditated, you know, they threatened to

524
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 4: murder her and she told anybody about this harrowing assault.

525
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 4: And then they also this is per her own description,

526
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 4: they took out a laptop and showed her videos that

527
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 4: they had taken of attacks on other victims. Fast forward,

528
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 4: she survives and by the way, the first law enforcement

529
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 4: officer she speaks with when she's been stabbed and beaten

530
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 4: and repeatedly assaulted, the first law enforcement officer asked her

531
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 4: if it started as a consensual interaction.

532
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, break I know.

533
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 4: And a few months later she survives, thankfully. She is

534
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 4: browsing MySpace. She finds people from her school classmates sharing

535
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 4: a link and tagging her in it, and when she

536
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 4: clicks on it, she's directed to pornhub. You can read

537
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 4: read a full interview with her speaking with the British

538
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 4: broadcasting service where she recalls the title and it's important

539
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 4: to hear it her quote in her words, the titles

540
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 4: of the videos were things like teen crying and getting

541
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 4: slapped around, Team getting destroyed or passed out Team one

542
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 4: of the mat over four hundred thousand.

543
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 5: Viewers, and I have to say, like, as a parent,

544
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 5: it's become it's been a little bit of a co

545
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 5: almost a culture shock to realize how much my kid

546
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 5: is aware of at fifteen, and how much you know,

547
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 5: kids in their cohort are aware of.

548
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 3: And I mean it makes sense.

549
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 5: It's maybe me having fooled myself into thinking that my

550
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 5: kid was still like innocent my kids, it's a good kid,

551
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 5: not a bully, but is bullied and there is this

552
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 5: kind of bullying and fourteen thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year olds

553
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 5: can be really really cruel and horrible and mean and

554
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 5: share this kind of stuff without thinking about who is

555
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 5: being victimized here and just treating it as a way

556
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 5: of like punking somebody on the internet, you know, as

557
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 5: opposed to realizing that this person is who is of

558
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 5: my same age, needs help, and instead we're using this

559
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 5: as an opportunity to humiliate them that is real, and

560
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 5: it's it's terrifying and I'm, you know, again not saying

561
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 5: I'm so special my kid does not someone would ever

562
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 5: do that, but there are definitely people in that age

563
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 5: group that to this day would still do something like that.

564
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: It's horrible, guys.

565
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: Should we talk about some of the I don't know.

566
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: There's another dark side to it here, where it's an

567
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: individual who makes the decision to try and make some

568
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: money with their body because they can, and they're pretty

569
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: desperate and they they need income, so they try to

570
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: become let's say, a lingerie model or something like that

571
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 2: for an extra two hundred, three hundred pounds or whatever.

572
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 2: If you're I'm thinking of a specific case in London

573
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: where you know, I need to make rent and I

574
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 2: need to help I need to make sure my kid

575
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: has food and all this stuff. So I'm gonna do this.

576
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: And the thing that can occur to read from, well,

577
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna read from, but I'm going to reference

578
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: an article that's on this website called Exodus cry e

579
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: xo d us cry dot com.

580
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 3: It is.

581
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:16,439
Speaker 2: It is an American Christian based nonprofit organization that's got

582
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: some pretty like interesting ideas about like ending porn pretty

583
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: much and in all sex trafficking, and it's actually it's

584
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: kind of cool, but it's also I don't know, it

585
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: just depends, right, depending on how you feel about some

586
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: of the stuff. It's a little out there, but they

587
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: allow for individuals to give their story. This is how

588
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: I ended up in a porn video. And there's one

589
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: you can find right now. It's called I was trafficked

590
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: into the porn industry as a desperate single mom. And

591
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: it just goes through the process that can occur where

592
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: you begin down this road and you're able to make

593
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: some extra income, right, and it's good, but the quote

594
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: producers of this stuff exploit an individual because, as as

595
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: this person says, there's always another person who's willing to

596
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: do it. If you aren't willing to do it, so

597
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: you won't get paid and you won't make rent this

598
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: month or whatever if you don't do this increasingly more

599
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: intense or maybe horrific thing on camera for us, like.

600
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 4: The Order of Nine angles the kind of coercion exactly.

601
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: And she describes a moment where she goes to set,

602
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 2: she doesn't know what the scene is going to be,

603
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 2: and then she is told what the scene is going

604
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: to be. She has given drugs and alcohol so that

605
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: she can quote get through it, and it ends up

606
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: being twenty five individual males that she has to have

607
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 2: sex with on camera and she passes out.

608
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 3: It's horrible.

609
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: It's a horrific experience, and she attempts to get out

610
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: of it, but it's it's very difficult once you're inside

611
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 2: this thing because these people, these individuals, these again producers

612
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: and the people who work with know who you are

613
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 2: and know where you live. And it can be extremely

614
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: scary and horrific even if you're doing it, even if

615
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: you are choosing to do it.

616
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,959
Speaker 4: Right, because you don't have informed consent, if you don't

617
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 4: know what you're agreeing to. And that's where these that's

618
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 4: one of the realms of which these predatory forces operate.

619
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 5: They're always moving the goalposts too right. You might agree

620
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 5: to one thing, but then there's this adherent escalation that

621
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 5: isn't under your control, and then you're manipulated by these

622
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 5: individuals and yeah, dare we say threatens.

623
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 4: The monsters always seek to erode agency. The rampant depictions

624
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 4: of abuse continue. The Internet Watch Foundation, a great nonprofit,

625
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 4: found one hundred and eighteen instances of child sexual abuse

626
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 4: on just Born Up just one site of many owned

627
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 4: by a single company, and that was only between twenty

628
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 4: seventeen and twenty nineteen. Again, this started ten years before

629
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 4: twenty seventeen. It continues today. And then there were reactions

630
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 4: as this increasingly entered the public sphere. MasterCard and visa

631
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 4: to big financial credit card companies, they suspended use of

632
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 4: their cards on the site porn Hub in December twenty twenty.

633
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 4: In I'd like to go back to that June twenty

634
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 4: twenty two New Yorker article which really brought this to

635
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 4: brought this to the mind of the public. More so,

636
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 4: they had an investigation into the ongoing of use. They

637
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 4: interviewed several women, one of whom we mentioned, who discovered

638
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 4: videos and pictures of themselves on porn Hub. They did

639
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 4: not ever consent to sharing this material in several situations,

640
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 4: they did not consent to being filmed. They did not

641
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 4: even consent to the acts that occurred. These were crimes,

642
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: These were criminal acts, and they would now in the

643
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 4: midst of surviving these horrific things, they would have to

644
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 4: ask this website that was making money off the crimes

645
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 4: to remove the material. In just a few days after

646
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 4: that publication in The New Yorker, the CEO and COO

647
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 4: of Mind Geek resigned from their positions. I don't think

648
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 4: we mentioned these guys earlier, Ferris Antoon, the CEO, and

649
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 4: David Tassilo, the COOO, that's chief executive and chief operations officer.

650
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 4: They also claimed the resignations were not due to this

651
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 4: report in The New Yorker, and as far as we

652
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 4: can tell, they remain shareholders today, so they are getting

653
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 4: passive income off of these acts.

654
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 3: Of course they are.

655
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, And as we record this episode right now, and

656
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 5: most likely as you are listening along at home across

657
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 5: the globe, this type of abuse is ongoing. It continues,

658
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 5: and depictions of it are going to find their way

659
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 5: into various other parts of the Internet. We know how

660
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 5: difficult it is for legislation to stay in step with

661
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 5: exponentially changing digital landscapes and technology. So you know, while

662
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,919
Speaker 5: there may be the best intentions of lawmakers to keep

663
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 5: this stuff under wraps, just as soon as the law

664
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 5: has passed, a loophole is found.

665
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 4: It's like a sick game of whack a mole, Whack

666
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 4: moist against a hydra of old myth. You stop one monster,

667
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 4: and then it seems two more spring up in its place.

668
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 4: Because stronger the Internet wants stuff on it, right, it

669
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 4: wants people to stay on it. It wants to create things.

670
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 4: It's very easy to create a website. It's very easy

671
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 4: to create or upload or distribute content. It is much

672
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 4: much more difficult to remove that, to scrub that. And

673
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 4: this is something that is being leveraged by predators around

674
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 4: the world. I mean, we're talking a little bit US centric.

675
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 3: But to.

676
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 4: Answer the question we asked a couple times at the

677
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 4: beginning here, we have to travel outside of the US

678
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 4: to learn the true owners of Pornhub, which became mind geek,

679
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 4: which became a low which is owned by someone else. Today,

680
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 4: I suggest we pause for a word from our sponsors. Okay,

681
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 4: this is an evil version of that old Saturday Night

682
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 4: Live cartoon about how few media companies actually control the media.

683
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,720
Speaker 4: You see Pornhub and its parent company, which owns so

684
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 4: so many things. We can even give you a full list.

685
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,439
Speaker 4: Idiots do that quick.

686
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 2: Just a gives appeal. Their premium pay sites include Brassers,

687
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 2: Reality Kings, Digital Playground, twistismofosmen dot com reality dudes in

688
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: seancody dot com. Their video sharing platforms include Pornhub, U,

689
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: porn Red Tube, and Tube eight. They have marketplaces called

690
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: my Dirty Hobby and uv O uv Io. They also

691
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: have gaming and application companies guys called Nataku and Uta

692
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: k U. They also own two advertising networks that then

693
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: work through all of those sites to sell those ads. Right,

694
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: there's Traffic Junkie and Adult Force, and that's just getting started.

695
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Pornhub, which is again just one of the

696
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 4: things owned by a low all of a low. The entire,

697
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 4: the entire umbrella of these corporate possessions is now owned

698
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 4: by another company that most people haven't heard of. I

699
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 4: think it's fair to say we had not heard of

700
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 4: this until we began researching, researching these crimes. That company's

701
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 4: name is Ethical Capital Partners. They acquired a LOO for

702
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 4: an undisclosed sum in March of twenty twenty three. And

703
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 4: what do we say about innocuous names?

704
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: Oh boy again.

705
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 4: And initially ECP, which we'll call them for the sake

706
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 4: of convenience, they refused to disclose their owners, their stakeholders.

707
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 4: You can find the board, but they initially refused to

708
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 4: say anything about this due to the stigma of their purchase,

709
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 4: which happened after many of the lawsuits that we just described.

710
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: Now you can go to their website. You can easily

711
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 4: find a list of the management team online. But the

712
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 4: management team is not necessarily the same thing as the profiteers. Right,

713
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 4: they are getting paid to be there, but they're not

714
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 4: what we will call the majority stakeholders to find to

715
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 4: find the big fish in that when we have to

716
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 4: travel to Austria. Oh, it's confusing because Ethical Capital Partners

717
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 4: is and it's various subsidiaries. They're based in Luxembourg, but

718
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 4: the owner doesn't live in Luxembourg. Let's learn a little

719
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 4: bit more about this guy.

720
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just I just want to give a couple

721
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: piece of info here, ECP that Ethical Capital Partners announced

722
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: that they, as you said, Ben, they announced that they

723
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 2: acquired mind Geek back in March of twenty twenty three.

724
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 2: So it is like, right after all of the heat

725
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: had just happened, right, So then this company called Ethical

726
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: Capital Partners runs through to be like, hey, we got

727
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 2: this guys, We're going to make sure everything's good from

728
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: now on, you know, And it sounds that way, right,

729
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: it's the story that's being told here.

730
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 5: Certainly in the statement they release, Yeah, a question disclosed

731
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 5: amount that it was acquired for, right, Like, I would

732
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 5: imagine that means it was a massive amount.

733
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 6: But isn't there shouldn't there be a way to find

734
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 6: things like that.

735
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 5: The filings, Like can you can you do an acquisition

736
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 5: like this and have.

737
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 6: It be a complete and utter mystery to the public.

738
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 3: How much money?

739
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: It's a private company?

740
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 3: Man?

741
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a private company. It also at this

742
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 4: point going across conventional geopolitical borders, so you can use

743
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 4: whichever set of laws is most convenient to you. A

744
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 4: microcosm of that is is why so many companies in

745
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 4: the US are based in Delaware unreasonably or maybe in

746
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 4: the Caribbean or other I guess you can also see

747
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 4: tax advantages being another thing weaponized. But the the issue too,

748
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 4: is not just the international borders, right because the Internet

749
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 4: has rendered some of those borders relevant in legal terms

750
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 4: or actionable legal terms. The issue is also the many, many,

751
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 4: many shell companies and proxies between the actual owner and

752
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 4: the purported owners, or the management or the infantry on

753
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 4: the ground, or the boardroom. The way it works, which

754
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 4: I don't know if we have time to fully get

755
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 4: into it, but the way these things work in general

756
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 4: is you, as a business tycoon, you don't directly purchase

757
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 4: the thing you want to purchase. What you have instead

758
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 4: are ideally is at least one, but ideally many more

759
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 4: than one different companies, and you have a controlling stake

760
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 4: in those companies. You're a majority stakeholder in that, whether

761
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 4: that's fifty one percent or just like you are the

762
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 4: single largest percentage shareholder. Then you have those companies get together,

763
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 4: maybe even form another company or another group of shells,

764
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 4: and you have them purchased the thing you want. And

765
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 4: so in a way, you are paying a little bit

766
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 4: of a vigoroush to all those other stakeholders for that activity, right,

767
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 4: and they're getting kickbacks, And then you are able to

768
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 4: hide your hand. Now you are unseen, but the Czechs

769
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 4: still arrive, the profit still still arrives. And if you

770
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 4: are not dare I say, an ethical capital partner, then

771
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 4: you have nothing to worry about until the law comes knocking.

772
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 4: Does that seem like a reasonable explanation.

773
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 2: Well what if you think yes? But what if you

774
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: founded ethical Capital Partners and your name is Roco Milliambro.

775
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 2: This is not somebody we were going to talk about,

776
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: but this is one of the primary people at ECP,

777
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: the company that acquired Ilo Slash mind Geek. And this

778
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 2: dude is one of Canada's biggest cannabis rea tailors. He

779
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: has an empire that was just acquired by another or

780
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 2: I guess merged with another of the largest cannabis retailers.

781
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: And it's very interesting if you look at this guy's investments,

782
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 2: which include mining, like gold mining somebody like that, that

783
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: just has all of these companies that go out and

784
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: do these massive things. The way you were describing it, Ben.

785
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 5: That's just called diversification though, right, And I mean from

786
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 5: the perspective of a business business person. And isn't it

787
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 5: interesting how those like even things like cannabis which are

788
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 5: now legal and then these types of you know, I guess,

789
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 5: sex selling, sex whatever in whatever form we're talking about

790
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 5: on paper being legal that once was sort of the

791
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 5: realm of someone like a pimp or a drug lord

792
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 5: or you know, someone in the Old West who maybe

793
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 5: had a tavern that also ran gambling and games and prostitution.

794
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 5: You know, this is now something that is the realm

795
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 5: of the legitimate businessman.

796
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 4: And these folks again are to my horm I like

797
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 4: the description of infantry on the ground in the boardroom.

798
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 4: That's not necessarily the general, that's not necessarily the officer level,

799
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 4: even though they're corporate officers. Let's travel over to Austria

800
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 4: and meet the guy who was working so ardently for

801
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 4: his identity to be obscured.

802
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a weird one. There's a whole video

803
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: you can find that Vice News produced in twenty twenty

804
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 2: one titled who is the Secret Owner of porn Hub.

805
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 2: It's a weird video because the people who made it

806
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 2: kind of track this person down. This this person named well,

807
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 2: I guess should we give the name yeah Burned b

808
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 2: e r n d Berg mayor b e r G

809
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 2: m ai R. This is one of the majority owners.

810
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 2: This is a person who ran in mind geek for

811
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 2: a long time. This is a very fascinating character who's

812
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 2: extremely elusive, and this Vice News video finds him in London,

813
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 2: of all places, by tracking down his girlfriend and her

814
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 2: Instagram page and then her like I think she had

815
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 2: a blog or something, and that's how they found him.

816
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: But this guy just kind of stays out of the limelight.

817
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 2: The creators of that video from Vice News don't get

818
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: any new information or anything. They just kind of track

819
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 2: him down, which is honestly a bit weird.

820
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:34,720
Speaker 3: Guys.

821
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 5: I can't help I mentioned the thing earlier about how like,

822
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 5: you know, what once was in the realm of like vice,

823
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 5: you know, lords or whatever, you know, gambling and drugs

824
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 5: and sex work and all of that has now kind

825
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 5: of become in the realm of like legitimate business. I

826
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 5: can't help but see parallels with what you're describing, Matt,

827
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 5: and this corporate structure of shell companies and all leading

828
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 5: down to this one man to the whole arrangement and

829
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 5: the TV show Breaking Bad Madrigal, and like the giant

830
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 5: web of German run corporations that are diverse at everything

831
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 5: from fast food to you know, whatever else it might be.

832
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 5: And also hiding in there in between the lines is

833
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 5: a meth you know, empire. And I'm not saying what

834
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 5: porn ib is doing is that, but they are breaking

835
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 5: the law. And it all is kind of whether at

836
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 5: the behest, but at the very least under a structure

837
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 5: governed by quote unquote legitimate business people.

838
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, people you know, you're right, people who have in

839
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: intense investment across the board.

840
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 4: I don't.

841
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 3: Don't.

842
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: It's very weird. And again, if you look at Ethical

843
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: Capital Partners website, they specifically say we focus on investment

844
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 2: with companies and in sectors that require extreme ethical guidance

845
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 2: right and making making well, I mean making decisions like

846
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 2: if you think about the stuff that that guy I

847
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 2: was talking about earlier invests in cannabis, you need some

848
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: ethics there when it comes to how it's produced, how

849
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 2: it's distributed, who it gets distributed to, in the laws

850
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 2: that you have to navigate with that stuff. Mining, the

851
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: mining industry and gold mining, especially depending on the country

852
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: that you're operating, right, those mining operations, there's all kinds

853
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 2: of issues, especially if you look at mining that's occurring

854
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 2: on the African continent and what was the other one.

855
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 2: There's another one in there, Oh yeah, porn, porn. Yeah.

856
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 5: But I'm just saying, I mean, isn't that sort of laughable,

857
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 5: Like they're saying, we are the arbiters of making sure

858
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 5: that these businesses are run at the utmost ethical levels

859
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 5: because there's potential for abuse.

860
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 6: Is that sort of what I'm seeing here?

861
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 4: Ministry of Truth, Department of Defense, be careful with innocuous names,

862
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 4: and perhaps transparency and accountability will keep past, present, and

863
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 4: future victims safe from this dirty, dirty industry. But as

864
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 4: anybody on the Internet can tell you, it is incredibly

865
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 4: easy to find adult content online. They're very let's be honest,

866
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 4: they're virtually no users online under the age of eighteen

867
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 4: who se a click yes or click now I'm ating

868
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 4: contact no one. That's that's not a turnback here moment

869
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 4: for a lot of people.

870
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 5: Porn hubb is it a legal defense though, Ben, I

871
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 5: always wonder that it's a cat like you said, oh,

872
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 5: they clicked that they were eighteen. Therefore we are absolved,

873
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 5: you know, of any underage you quota users on our pages.

874
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 3: It just seems laughable to me, is it just is like, yeah,

875
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 3: it is laughable.

876
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 4: I mean, and you know, as a result of all

877
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 4: these factors we're describing, porn Hub in particular, remains one

878
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 4: of the world's most popular websites again, number thirteen across

879
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 4: the globe, over eight billion people almost put it in

880
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 4: the top ten.

881
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 2: One hundred million, one hundred and fifty million active users daily.

882
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 4: And those are unique users as well. If you've been

883
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 4: the target of non consensual pornography or content like this,

884
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 4: you are far from alone. As many as one in

885
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 4: twenty five people in the United States, just the US,

886
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 4: have had a private image or video of themselves shared

887
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 4: without their consent. It is statistically certain that some of

888
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 4: us listening along tonight have an unfortunate firsthand experience with this,

889
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 4: and we do want to hear from you. There is

890
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 4: a bit of good news, at least in the case

891
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:41,280
Speaker 4: of porn Hub.

892
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: They have.

893
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 4: They have a templatized content removal form through which you

894
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 4: can get specific videos removed from the site. But again

895
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 4: those are specific videos, and that is a legislative reaction,

896
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 4: not a proactive move. So those videos again, like these

897
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 4: unfortunate innocent children, those videos keep cropping up, and you know,

898
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 4: I think about.

899
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 2: Rachel's problem that have that we just talked about.

900
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 4: Think about Roses problem. You know, those are very similar cases.

901
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but a fifteen year old, a fifteen year

902
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: old who's now fourteen year old, Yeah, who has content

903
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 2: on there that uploads and pornub gets it removed or that, right,

904
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 2: But they are not stopping the human being that has

905
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 2: that content, that uploaded it. In the first place that

906
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 2: person can then turn around and upload it to any

907
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: other site, any other site, because porn ub started a

908
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 2: trend of all of these other outlets.

909
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 5: We haven't really talked about this at all, and maybe

910
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 5: this is you know, beside the point, but I will

911
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 5: say I think there is something positive about user owned

912
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 5: and operated distribution methods, like something more resembling an only

913
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 5: fan situation, where individuals are putting up content at their

914
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 5: own behests. They're the ones getting paid directly. They have

915
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 5: users subscribing directly to them. It's also a lot harder

916
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 5: for that stuff to get ripped and uploaded without these

917
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 5: individuals consent. A lot of them have you know, watermarks

918
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 5: or whatever it might be in their easier methods for

919
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 5: getting that stuff pulled down.

920
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 3: And oh, well, that's exactly right.

921
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 5: I'm not saying any of the stuff is perfect, but

922
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 5: I'm just saying, there are you know, alternatives to this

923
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 5: hive of scum and villainy model. And I think, you know, Ben,

924
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 5: you can put it right here in the outline, and

925
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 5: it's absolutely true. We are all very sex positive individuals.

926
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 5: It wouldn't begrudge anybody, uh you know, agency of their

927
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 5: own body and choosing to do this kind of stuff

928
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 5: if it is in fact at their own behests and

929
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 5: and uh and and using it as a means of

930
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 5: having comfort and and income.

931
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're not. We're not.

932
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 4: We're not the arbiters uh of your personal preferences, so

933
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 4: long as everyone involved is legally consenting, so long as

934
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 4: no one is being harmed. But we have to understand,

935
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 4: as long as there is this enormous, this gargantua and

936
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 4: gigantic profit motive at play, these things will happen. Unclean

937
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 4: things will occur. We also have to understand that humanity

938
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 4: as a whole does not yet fully comprehend nor control

939
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 4: what can happen online.

940
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 3: And you know, if.

941
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 4: You're a casual observer, these may be nothing more than ephemeral,

942
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 4: momentary pixels that you view on a screen.

943
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 3: But those pixels, those.

944
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 4: The acts have real world consequences and time and time again,

945
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 4: that seems to be something these companies and their owners

946
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 4: do not want you to know. We talked a little

947
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 4: bit off air. This may be this may be the

948
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 4: first part of a series. Because I'm sure the three

949
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 4: of us can agree there's a lot we did not

950
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 4: get to.

951
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 2: We didn't talk about how it's changed the way we think,

952
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: the way porn makes us think about sexual encounters and

953
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 2: intimacy and like what that looks like. I mean, really,

954
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 2: just as humans, as humanity, this stuff has altered us fundamentally.

955
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 2: And I'm I'm not coming out against porn or something

956
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 2: because whatever, it's just that's a whole other topic.

957
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 5: But it's also been evolving since the advent of the internet,

958
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 5: like to the early points at the beginning of the episode,

959
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 5: like technology, as long as there's been technology, someone's figured

960
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 5: out how to do something horny with it, like you know,

961
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 5: from the earliest cave paintings and drawing people were drawing

962
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 5: people in sexual you know, situations, and speaking about the

963
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 5: algorithm and the way it has created this kind of

964
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 5: I don't know, mind rot, I guess as the kids

965
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 5: call it, around content creation and around pornography and intimacy

966
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 5: and just the way we see the world. I just

967
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 5: this is a great OPPORTAI just want to really quickly

968
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 5: read a quote from Brian Eno, who's a thinker, technologist,

969
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 5: music guy. He says, algorithms are not transparent. They're not

970
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 5: like screwdrivers or something like that. They have a personality.

971
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 5: They have a direction, and coded into them is a worldview.

972
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 5: And if the worldview encoded of them as a sort

973
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 5: of libertarian, capitalist, individualistic worldview, that's where we will end up.

974
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 5: And not being dramatic and the saying that we've seen

975
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 5: it happen with social media. Social media could have run

976
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 5: with different algorithms. It could have been a different world

977
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 5: and I think that applies to pornography as well.

978
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 4: Let us know your experiences, folks, Thank you so much

979
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 4: for tuning in. Be safe and talk to us directly.

980
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 4: We try to be easy to find online.

981
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 3: That's right.

982
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 5: We exist at the handle conspiracy stuff on YouTube. We

983
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 5: have video content rolling out every single week very pg

984
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 5: and also on Facebook and also on x fka, Twitter,

985
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 5: on Instagram and TikTok. We are conspiracy stuff show bo.

986
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 6: Wait there's more.

987
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 2: Call one eight three three STDWYTK. When you call in,

988
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

989
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

990
01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 2: If you got more to say they could fit in

991
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 2: that three minute voicemail, why not instead send us a

992
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.

993
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 4: We are the folks who read every single email. We

994
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 4: get no character limit, no limit on, no limit on

995
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 4: the links you want to send us. Speak your mind,

996
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 4: speak it true. The same rules from the voicemail apply

997
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 4: as well. We keep your safety and anonymity paramount.

998
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 3: Folks.

999
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 4: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1000
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

1001
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1002
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,640
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