1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,796 --> 00:00:23,756 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello everyone. This is the first of what are 3 00:00:23,796 --> 00:00:25,556 Speaker 2: going to be a couple of episodes in this mini 4 00:00:25,636 --> 00:00:29,836 Speaker 2: season from my colleague Ben Adaph Haffrey. Ben is the 5 00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:33,356 Speaker 2: guy when you're hiking through the wilderness who says let's 6 00:00:33,356 --> 00:00:36,036 Speaker 2: go this way and there's no trail and you think, oh, 7 00:00:36,116 --> 00:00:38,116 Speaker 2: I'm going to get eaten by bears, and then no, 8 00:00:38,676 --> 00:00:43,436 Speaker 2: you find some lost civilization and large piles of glittering gold. 9 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 2: Ben started telling me this story and I stopped him 10 00:00:47,116 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 2: halfway through and I said, oh, Ben, this is a spandrel. 11 00:00:51,916 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 2: And what's a spandrel? One of my all time favorite concepts. 12 00:00:55,476 --> 00:00:58,356 Speaker 2: Invented by Stephen J. Gould, the spandrel is a thing 13 00:00:58,396 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 2: that doesn't have a function, but which hangs around like 14 00:01:01,636 --> 00:01:04,676 Speaker 2: a random hitchhiker, because it happens to be riding along 15 00:01:05,076 --> 00:01:08,236 Speaker 2: with things that do have a function, like your ear lobes. 16 00:01:08,556 --> 00:01:11,356 Speaker 2: I mean, what are they there for? Doesn't it seem 17 00:01:11,396 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 2: like they were all just along for the ride with 18 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:15,196 Speaker 2: a part of our ear that actually does useful things. 19 00:01:16,156 --> 00:01:20,956 Speaker 2: Or your chin? What's up with the chin. We look 20 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:23,076 Speaker 2: at a spandrel and we assume there has to be 21 00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 2: a reason for it, and there isn't They're just spandrels. 22 00:01:30,076 --> 00:01:32,956 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is Revisionist History, my 23 00:01:33,076 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 2: podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. In this episode, my 24 00:01:37,636 --> 00:01:41,276 Speaker 2: colleague Bend daph Haffrey investigates a spandrel. You don't even 25 00:01:41,316 --> 00:01:43,836 Speaker 2: realize you've been living with something that none of us 26 00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:46,836 Speaker 2: would ever think to question, because it's such a bedrock 27 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:49,676 Speaker 2: part of our world. We all just assume it has 28 00:01:49,716 --> 00:01:54,596 Speaker 2: to be there, and it doesn't. I'm talking, of course, 29 00:01:55,196 --> 00:01:57,116 Speaker 2: about sirens. 30 00:02:10,036 --> 00:02:15,676 Speaker 1: Walk me through. No, you really do walk me through 31 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:18,196 Speaker 1: what we're looking at here. I'm talking with my wife 32 00:02:18,276 --> 00:02:20,796 Speaker 1: Julia Conrad, who happens to share an apartment with me 33 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 1: on quite a noisy street in Brooklyn. 34 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:27,916 Speaker 3: This is a log that you created. Although I am 35 00:02:27,996 --> 00:02:30,316 Speaker 3: represented in it, I think it looks like we only 36 00:02:30,356 --> 00:02:33,036 Speaker 3: did it for one day. Of how many times we 37 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 3: heard the siren and where we heard it. Wow, what 38 00:02:36,516 --> 00:02:36,876 Speaker 3: a day. 39 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 1: Julia and I live opposite this grocery store that's all local, 40 00:02:41,196 --> 00:02:44,676 Speaker 1: small batch whatnot. So instead of getting just one delivery 41 00:02:44,716 --> 00:02:48,516 Speaker 1: a day, they get like fifteen, sometimes from trucks bearing 42 00:02:48,556 --> 00:02:52,556 Speaker 1: I assume one sprig of artismal basil next door there's 43 00:02:52,556 --> 00:02:56,476 Speaker 1: a noisy playground and crucially a fire station, a really 44 00:02:56,596 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 1: active fire station. What happens is the grocery store trucks 45 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:02,996 Speaker 1: block traffic, which means the fire trucks can't get out, 46 00:03:03,996 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: and so sirens all the time. This, for me, as 47 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:16,556 Speaker 1: a writer, podcaster and light sleeper, is a problem. So 48 00:03:16,596 --> 00:03:19,756 Speaker 1: I decided to do some research. I made a spreadsheet. 49 00:03:20,396 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 1: We counted from nine am till ten at night, and 50 00:03:23,196 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 1: we heard a siren twenty four times. Twenty four times, 51 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:31,876 Speaker 1: and this is reliable data. Julia is a data scientist. 52 00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 1: She works for the New York City government, and she 53 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:37,476 Speaker 1: has held my spreadsheet to the highest of standards. 54 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:40,476 Speaker 3: First, I have to say I never understand your way 55 00:03:40,516 --> 00:03:43,436 Speaker 3: of doing Google sheets because the color coding seems to 56 00:03:43,516 --> 00:03:48,556 Speaker 3: just be aesthetic. It's not actually representing anything in the data. 57 00:03:49,156 --> 00:03:51,316 Speaker 1: I don't need this in it. I could get enough 58 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:52,676 Speaker 1: of this in my job. I don't hear from you. 59 00:03:53,676 --> 00:03:57,036 Speaker 1: I will confess that the spreadsheet, consisting of mauv baby blue, 60 00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 1: puked green, a cheery yellow, and several pleasingly varied shades 61 00:04:00,596 --> 00:04:03,876 Speaker 1: of red, isn't even complete because it does not count 62 00:04:03,876 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 1: the times we heard the siren in the middle of 63 00:04:06,236 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: the night when there is no one on the road. 64 00:04:09,676 --> 00:04:12,636 Speaker 1: Maybe you didn't realize this, but emergency vehicles will sometimes 65 00:04:12,716 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 1: run their lights and sirens even if there's seemingly no 66 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:19,876 Speaker 1: one around. Sirens can run anywhere from one hundred and 67 00:04:19,916 --> 00:04:22,916 Speaker 1: ten decibels to over one hundred and thirty That is 68 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:26,676 Speaker 1: ear damagingly loud. The classic fire siren sound like what 69 00:04:26,796 --> 00:04:28,476 Speaker 1: you hear in your head if you imagine a fire 70 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:31,356 Speaker 1: truck right now. Is called the Federal Q TWOV, and 71 00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 1: it's a whopping one hundred and twenty three decibels at 72 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:38,036 Speaker 1: one hundred feet away. There's an actual corporation that makes 73 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 1: the siren. Federal Signal Fans post videos about the siren online. 74 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:45,916 Speaker 1: Here's what it sounds like. Maybe turn your volume down. 75 00:04:46,156 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 4: As we say, it's not a firetruck unless it's got. 76 00:04:48,916 --> 00:05:08,156 Speaker 1: A key siren. According to a helpful chart from Yale University, 77 00:05:08,476 --> 00:05:12,676 Speaker 1: one hundred twenty three decibels is just two decibels lower 78 00:05:12,716 --> 00:05:17,836 Speaker 1: than the point at which quote pain begins. This would 79 00:05:17,876 --> 00:05:20,996 Speaker 1: all be fine, except I kind of need my ears 80 00:05:20,996 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 1: for my job, and this is why I began the log. 81 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:30,716 Speaker 1: The log has fields for all relevant data date, time, 82 00:05:30,956 --> 00:05:34,356 Speaker 1: branch of emergency service. Location in the house from which 83 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 1: we have heard the siren. 84 00:05:35,636 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 3: Well, there's really just two possibilities. You're either in the 85 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 3: front of the house or the back of the house. 86 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 3: But actually some of these entries are logged for front 87 00:05:44,716 --> 00:05:46,756 Speaker 3: and back, so that's when you know it's a really 88 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:47,636 Speaker 3: big siren. 89 00:05:48,676 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 1: There's also a field for reporter Ben slash Julia and 90 00:05:52,076 --> 00:05:56,076 Speaker 1: another for notes and then what is the final column. 91 00:05:56,596 --> 00:05:59,036 Speaker 3: The final column is called dog question mark. 92 00:06:00,556 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 1: This is the only field that matters. You See, there's 93 00:06:04,516 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 1: a dog in my neighborhood who howls almost every time 94 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:21,876 Speaker 1: the siren goes off, and he sounds like this, a 95 00:06:21,956 --> 00:06:24,236 Speaker 1: dog who, by the standards of people on my block 96 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 1: is practically famous. Have you heard a dog who howls 97 00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:30,436 Speaker 1: every time the sirens go off? Yeah? I have. 98 00:06:30,596 --> 00:06:32,036 Speaker 5: I mean they're pretty consistent with it. 99 00:06:32,476 --> 00:06:34,076 Speaker 2: They're they're dedicated to their. 100 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:36,796 Speaker 5: Howling. 101 00:06:37,076 --> 00:06:38,996 Speaker 4: I think I feel like my wife has heard the dog. 102 00:06:39,156 --> 00:06:43,356 Speaker 1: But there's a guy, Kevin that lives after that garage 103 00:06:43,436 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 1: right there, and he does so he's talked about this 104 00:06:46,156 --> 00:06:48,676 Speaker 1: dog here. Yeah, what does he say? Oh, he's ready 105 00:06:48,676 --> 00:06:52,156 Speaker 1: to do something about it. 106 00:06:52,156 --> 00:06:53,996 Speaker 3: It starts really low and guttural. 107 00:06:54,356 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 6: I thought it was like a wearwolf or something. 108 00:06:56,196 --> 00:06:56,436 Speaker 7: Oh. 109 00:07:03,116 --> 00:07:05,396 Speaker 1: I decided to take a two pronged approach to my 110 00:07:05,476 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 1: siren problem. Planet I had to see if I could. 111 00:07:09,116 --> 00:07:11,716 Speaker 1: I proved that the sirens in my neighborhood were dangerously 112 00:07:12,036 --> 00:07:16,716 Speaker 1: unnecessarily loud, and Plan B. I needed a sympathetic face 113 00:07:16,756 --> 00:07:22,716 Speaker 1: for my cause. Nobody really cares about podcasters, but everybody 114 00:07:22,716 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: cares about dogs. And I had to assume that that 115 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: dog was howling along with the siren because he was, 116 00:07:28,276 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 1: like me, in serious pain. So find the dog, stop 117 00:07:33,916 --> 00:07:37,996 Speaker 1: the siren. It'd be that simple, except the dog was 118 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:42,716 Speaker 1: not immediately forthcoming. So I pushed ahead with Plan A 119 00:07:42,876 --> 00:07:47,516 Speaker 1: noise research, which led me straight to doctor Arlene Bronze Aft. 120 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:51,756 Speaker 7: We're going to take you into the noise troom. 121 00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:52,836 Speaker 1: What's the noise troop? 122 00:07:52,876 --> 00:07:52,956 Speaker 8: Oh? 123 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:54,716 Speaker 7: Okay, no, see when you get there. 124 00:07:54,916 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 1: Sarah doctor Bronze Aft, is an eighty nine year old 125 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:01,476 Speaker 1: environmental psychologist who has been called the noise Queen of 126 00:08:01,516 --> 00:08:04,796 Speaker 1: New York City. She's done major noise studies worked for 127 00:08:04,836 --> 00:08:07,596 Speaker 1: five mayors. She grew up in Brooklyn and lives in 128 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 1: a lovely tidy apartment on the Upper East Side someone 129 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 1: was jackhammering the street outside the building, and yet you 130 00:08:14,236 --> 00:08:18,756 Speaker 1: couldn't hear a thing. Double glazed windows. Of course, she 131 00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:21,316 Speaker 1: took me to her noise room. The noise room sounds 132 00:08:21,396 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 1: possibly like the opposite of what I mean. 133 00:08:23,996 --> 00:08:31,676 Speaker 7: Let me tell you it is a very quiet room. 134 00:08:31,876 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 7: This is quiet. 135 00:08:34,556 --> 00:08:37,316 Speaker 1: Wow. How did you get it so quiet? Oh? 136 00:08:37,476 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 7: Did I help make it quiet? Answer? Yes, I did 137 00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:43,956 Speaker 7: have a role and making it quieter than it would 138 00:08:43,996 --> 00:08:46,996 Speaker 7: have been. Can you see the cooling units? 139 00:08:47,436 --> 00:08:47,636 Speaker 1: Yep? 140 00:08:47,676 --> 00:08:48,916 Speaker 7: Are they all closed? 141 00:08:49,156 --> 00:08:49,436 Speaker 1: Yep? 142 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:51,756 Speaker 7: Who do anythink made that request? 143 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:54,716 Speaker 1: Bronze Aft started her work during the golden age of 144 00:08:54,796 --> 00:08:59,156 Speaker 1: noise control the nineteen seventies, when the EPA began regulating noise. 145 00:09:00,076 --> 00:09:03,116 Speaker 1: Her early work demonstrated that noise isn't just annoying. They 146 00:09:03,116 --> 00:09:05,116 Speaker 1: can get in the way of kids learning in school, 147 00:09:05,676 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: and she just kept going from there. When the city 148 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 1: updated its noise code in two thousand and seven. 149 00:09:10,756 --> 00:09:13,716 Speaker 7: In fact, it was my suggestion that they updated, it 150 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:17,876 Speaker 7: carried quite a bit of weight. However, the literature that 151 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:22,956 Speaker 7: they were depending upon was it was older. So today 152 00:09:22,996 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 7: we have much more solid literature on the link between 153 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:31,356 Speaker 7: noise and health. That's critical, and that includes mental health. 154 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:34,076 Speaker 7: As well in learning that. 155 00:09:34,076 --> 00:09:36,556 Speaker 1: All checked out for me. Of course, the sirens are 156 00:09:36,556 --> 00:09:38,836 Speaker 1: too loud, but it can take a while for the 157 00:09:38,916 --> 00:09:41,836 Speaker 1: research to make its way into policy. Now we have 158 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:45,796 Speaker 1: research linking even small changes and overall noise to significantly 159 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:48,996 Speaker 1: increased risk of heart disease, to say nothing of stress, 160 00:09:49,236 --> 00:09:53,316 Speaker 1: poor sleep and its associated elements, and crucially the effective 161 00:09:53,316 --> 00:09:55,596 Speaker 1: noise on easpirated podcasters. 162 00:09:56,236 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 7: Now you mentioned sirens, all right, that deals with safety, 163 00:10:02,796 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 7: That deals with getting someone to the hospital on time. However, 164 00:10:06,876 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 7: the sirens in Europe are less offensive, are less intrusive. 165 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:17,116 Speaker 7: Europe mean people aren't dying, aren't they. The point is, 166 00:10:17,276 --> 00:10:20,076 Speaker 7: if Europe can have quiet at once, you could come 167 00:10:20,196 --> 00:10:25,636 Speaker 7: up with a method of quieting the sirens and still 168 00:10:25,676 --> 00:10:28,756 Speaker 7: be as effective. I have not seen a study I 169 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 7: has shown that if you have a less offensive intrusive 170 00:10:32,756 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 7: siren that more people die. 171 00:10:35,916 --> 00:10:38,556 Speaker 1: Have you no? So here? 172 00:10:38,596 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 7: I am, I'm a data person. Show me the data. 173 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:47,756 Speaker 1: I left that meeting full of hope. There's no doubt 174 00:10:47,756 --> 00:10:50,836 Speaker 1: that sirens are dangerously loud. I just need to find 175 00:10:50,836 --> 00:10:52,756 Speaker 1: the data to back this up and figure out a 176 00:10:52,756 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 1: new solution. Like Arlene said, I went straight to the 177 00:10:55,756 --> 00:10:59,036 Speaker 1: library and started digging around. But the more I saw 178 00:10:59,156 --> 00:11:02,516 Speaker 1: about how clear it is already that these sirens are crazy, 179 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:05,316 Speaker 1: the less I believe that that data was going to 180 00:11:05,396 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: make any difference in the world. And then I found 181 00:11:09,996 --> 00:11:13,436 Speaker 1: a different set of data, not something about noise, but 182 00:11:13,556 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 1: something that undermined the very foundation of the sirens existence. 183 00:11:20,676 --> 00:11:39,676 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Barrion County, Michigan, sits on the 184 00:11:39,676 --> 00:11:43,676 Speaker 1: southeastern shore of Lake Michigan. It's not too far from Kalamazoo, 185 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:49,156 Speaker 1: quaint lake front towns, golf courses, quiet unless you work 186 00:11:49,596 --> 00:11:50,396 Speaker 1: as a paramedic. 187 00:11:50,676 --> 00:11:53,316 Speaker 4: I have like four jobs because it doesn't everyone. And 188 00:11:54,036 --> 00:11:56,476 Speaker 4: I'm like, right now, I'm at the Barrion County Health Department. 189 00:11:56,716 --> 00:12:01,316 Speaker 1: Jonathan Byer, former EMT and now medical director for the 190 00:12:01,356 --> 00:12:02,836 Speaker 1: Barrion County Health Department. 191 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:05,636 Speaker 4: I am not speaking on behalf of the Barian County 192 00:12:05,636 --> 00:12:06,236 Speaker 4: Health Department. 193 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: Buyer was a boy scout, scrupulous. The reason he was 194 00:12:09,956 --> 00:12:12,956 Speaker 1: speaking to me is because, in his capacity as the 195 00:12:12,996 --> 00:12:16,836 Speaker 1: EMS medical director of the Baryon County Medical Control Authority, 196 00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:21,516 Speaker 1: he is responsible for the ambulances of Barrion County, and 197 00:12:21,556 --> 00:12:24,076 Speaker 1: that means he's thought a lot about the noises that 198 00:12:24,116 --> 00:12:28,916 Speaker 1: those ambulances make and he's arrived at a very controversial position. 199 00:12:29,436 --> 00:12:32,076 Speaker 4: There is no evidence that lights and sirens helps anybody. 200 00:12:32,076 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 4: There's plenty of evidence that it hurts people. 201 00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:38,076 Speaker 1: No evidence that lights and sirens helps anybody. This, even 202 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:41,756 Speaker 1: to me an inveterate complainer about sirens, was a huge surprise. 203 00:12:42,116 --> 00:12:44,476 Speaker 4: I started life as a paramedic before I got demoted 204 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:47,716 Speaker 4: to doctor. I was a paramedic for eleven years. And 205 00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:50,636 Speaker 4: when I was a paramedic in the Philadelphia area, we 206 00:12:50,756 --> 00:12:53,796 Speaker 4: responded lights and sirens for everything. Like you called nine 207 00:12:53,836 --> 00:12:56,516 Speaker 4: to one, we just let you know, there we go. 208 00:12:57,756 --> 00:13:02,236 Speaker 4: When I got here to Michigan, they had two sets 209 00:13:02,276 --> 00:13:04,636 Speaker 4: of priorities, Priority one in Priority two. 210 00:13:05,076 --> 00:13:07,716 Speaker 1: A lot of ems across the country has a similar 211 00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:11,476 Speaker 1: kind of tiered into system, a way to rank every 212 00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:14,196 Speaker 1: incoming nine to one one call based not on its 213 00:13:14,276 --> 00:13:19,676 Speaker 1: importance but on its time sensitivity. In Barryon County, they 214 00:13:19,676 --> 00:13:22,876 Speaker 1: would tag a call with priority one or two, depending 215 00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:23,796 Speaker 1: on what the issue was. 216 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:26,796 Speaker 4: There are more calls for service than there are ambulances, 217 00:13:26,796 --> 00:13:28,636 Speaker 4: so we have to find some way to prioritize them. 218 00:13:29,236 --> 00:13:32,516 Speaker 1: Except the system wasn't really working. 219 00:13:32,916 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 4: And a lot of these triggers for things were like, 220 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 4: if you ever complained of shortness of breath in any way, 221 00:13:39,276 --> 00:13:42,036 Speaker 4: shape or form, it made it a Priority one. The 222 00:13:42,076 --> 00:13:43,956 Speaker 4: problem is shortness of breath or do you feel like 223 00:13:43,956 --> 00:13:47,756 Speaker 4: you're having trouble breathing? An incredibly subjective question, and so 224 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:49,996 Speaker 4: the medics were coming to me complaining. It's like, why 225 00:13:49,996 --> 00:13:53,316 Speaker 4: are we getting Priority one dental pain because the person's like, 226 00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:56,236 Speaker 4: I have a toothpain. Oh yeah, it's making hard to break. 227 00:13:56,476 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 4: We were about fifty to fifty for Priority ones, which 228 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:02,316 Speaker 4: were lights and sirens, and Priority twos, which were not 229 00:14:02,476 --> 00:14:04,076 Speaker 4: lights and siren. Speed of traffic. 230 00:14:04,596 --> 00:14:07,156 Speaker 1: So you only have a certain number of ambulances, but 231 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 1: if a full half of your calls are coming in 232 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:12,716 Speaker 1: as urgent, how do you fix the problem? How do 233 00:14:12,756 --> 00:14:15,676 Speaker 1: you get all those ambulances where they need to be. Well, 234 00:14:15,836 --> 00:14:19,116 Speaker 1: an easy way is to get more places faster, which 235 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:22,356 Speaker 1: theoretically you can do very easily if you're exempt from 236 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:26,836 Speaker 1: all typical traffic laws, precisely why we have sirens. But 237 00:14:26,876 --> 00:14:28,436 Speaker 1: it's a little more complicated than that. 238 00:14:29,036 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 4: So when you drive your car, you're used to things 239 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:35,236 Speaker 4: like red lights. Everyone's going to stop. Once something interferes 240 00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:37,916 Speaker 4: with that, the chances of an accident increase. 241 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 1: Specifically, it increases your chance of an accident by over 242 00:14:43,436 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: fifty percent, which is crazy. This is according to a 243 00:14:47,796 --> 00:14:51,076 Speaker 1: peer reviewed twenty nineteen study published in the Annals of 244 00:14:51,076 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 1: Emergency Medicine. The risk is even higher when transporting a 245 00:14:54,796 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 1: patient than when initially responding. But either way, the chance 246 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:00,596 Speaker 1: of an accident is a lot higher when you're using 247 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:03,916 Speaker 1: lights and sirens than if you're not. Also, these are 248 00:15:04,036 --> 00:15:07,996 Speaker 1: very often bad accidents. Ambulances are heavy, not a risk 249 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:11,276 Speaker 1: worth taking if you're just responding to a toothache. 250 00:15:12,236 --> 00:15:15,156 Speaker 4: I started going, why are we responding to dental pain 251 00:15:15,276 --> 00:15:19,676 Speaker 4: priority one? So myself and I have a residency program here, 252 00:15:19,676 --> 00:15:21,756 Speaker 4: and I had a couple of my high performing medics 253 00:15:21,796 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 4: and another EMS position and myself. We spent a couple 254 00:15:24,796 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 4: of weeks going through hundreds of these determined codes, going 255 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 4: does that really need priority one? 256 00:15:30,756 --> 00:15:34,036 Speaker 1: So there's the accident's risk. But also, and this is 257 00:15:34,076 --> 00:15:38,396 Speaker 1: really surprising, using lights and sirens doesn't actually save that 258 00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:41,956 Speaker 1: much time on your route to the patient. For decades now, 259 00:15:42,316 --> 00:15:45,196 Speaker 1: studies have shown that lights and sirens seem to save 260 00:15:45,236 --> 00:15:49,356 Speaker 1: on average between forty two seconds and three minutes and 261 00:15:49,436 --> 00:15:52,676 Speaker 1: forty eight seconds. It's about one and a half minutes 262 00:15:52,716 --> 00:15:55,236 Speaker 1: of savings if you're in a city, and a little 263 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:57,596 Speaker 1: over three and a half minutes if you're in the country. 264 00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:02,476 Speaker 4: On average, yes, it's about forty five seconds or three minutes. 265 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:05,356 Speaker 1: And there are that's not a critical that's not a 266 00:16:05,396 --> 00:16:07,756 Speaker 1: critical interval most of the time for. 267 00:16:07,836 --> 00:16:11,116 Speaker 4: Most disease process. Cardiac arrest is one that I would 268 00:16:11,116 --> 00:16:14,516 Speaker 4: put in the that's the time makes sense because in 269 00:16:14,596 --> 00:16:18,796 Speaker 4: cardiac arrest, for every every minute that you go without 270 00:16:18,836 --> 00:16:22,876 Speaker 4: CPR being done, there's about a ten percent increase in 271 00:16:22,956 --> 00:16:26,156 Speaker 4: mortality and decrease in survivable brain function coming. 272 00:16:26,196 --> 00:16:29,716 Speaker 1: That's huge. Yeah, serta's huge. But heart attacks are actually 273 00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: one of the few exceptions, not the rule, and yet 274 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:36,356 Speaker 1: they are the exception on which the rule is largely based. 275 00:16:37,036 --> 00:16:40,916 Speaker 1: So all of these factors led Buyer to do something big. 276 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 1: He restructured the tears. 277 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:45,956 Speaker 4: I tell the medics, and this is how I presented 278 00:16:45,996 --> 00:16:49,876 Speaker 4: it is consider lights and sirens a medical therapy. Right, 279 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:52,156 Speaker 4: there's for every medicine that you give, there is an 280 00:16:52,156 --> 00:16:54,276 Speaker 4: indication and there's a contraindication. 281 00:16:54,716 --> 00:16:54,916 Speaker 1: Right. 282 00:16:55,156 --> 00:16:56,476 Speaker 4: If I were going to say I'm going to give 283 00:16:56,476 --> 00:16:58,156 Speaker 4: you up an effort, well, why would I give you 284 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 4: epin effort and the benefits have to outweigh the risks. 285 00:17:01,436 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 4: So I wanted to think of lights and sirens that way. 286 00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:07,476 Speaker 4: It is a high risk procedure. When are we going 287 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:11,196 Speaker 4: to do it when the risks are outweighed by the benefits. 288 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:13,516 Speaker 1: They ran through their data on all the calls that 289 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 1: they had responded to Priority one lights and sirens, and 290 00:17:16,956 --> 00:17:20,436 Speaker 1: they reassessed whether those really needed to be lights and sirens. 291 00:17:20,876 --> 00:17:26,836 Speaker 4: So cardiac arrest, people choking, respiratory arrest, things where seconds 292 00:17:26,876 --> 00:17:30,156 Speaker 4: could make a difference, yep, that is worth the risk 293 00:17:30,756 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 4: to try to get someone there quicker. But other things 294 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:36,556 Speaker 4: like well she fell and broke her hip, Okay, that's 295 00:17:36,596 --> 00:17:38,796 Speaker 4: an emergency and that person needs to get to a hospital. 296 00:17:38,836 --> 00:17:42,076 Speaker 4: I don't doubt that is the three minutes going to 297 00:17:42,156 --> 00:17:44,516 Speaker 4: make a difference in that person's outcome. 298 00:17:45,076 --> 00:17:49,036 Speaker 1: No, So with all this data, Buyer and his team 299 00:17:49,476 --> 00:17:51,036 Speaker 1: changed how the calls were coded. 300 00:17:52,396 --> 00:17:54,836 Speaker 4: I wiped out about fifty percent of the Priority one 301 00:17:54,916 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 4: calls in burying down. 302 00:17:56,796 --> 00:18:00,596 Speaker 1: Let that sink in ambulance lights and sirens and Barrion 303 00:18:00,636 --> 00:18:04,476 Speaker 1: County were sounding half as often as they had before. 304 00:18:05,636 --> 00:18:08,396 Speaker 1: Now even I was wondering, could you really know that 305 00:18:08,476 --> 00:18:11,876 Speaker 1: this switch was putting anyone at risk? Well, eventually they 306 00:18:11,956 --> 00:18:14,476 Speaker 1: followed up on the people the ambulances had picked up 307 00:18:14,476 --> 00:18:16,996 Speaker 1: in the field to see how the hospital coded the 308 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:19,796 Speaker 1: patients as they came in. So if you went to 309 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:22,836 Speaker 1: someone as a priority too not that urgent, and they 310 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:25,596 Speaker 1: showed up to the hospital as a priority one, that 311 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:28,356 Speaker 1: would mean that you'd made a mistake. How much more 312 00:18:28,396 --> 00:18:31,116 Speaker 1: often was that happening under the new coding system than 313 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:34,836 Speaker 1: the old It was the same number. Wow, there was 314 00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: basically no difference, as in, he had the number of 315 00:18:40,156 --> 00:18:43,476 Speaker 1: lights and sirens responses in Barrion County. He reduced the 316 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:46,916 Speaker 1: risk of accidents as a result, and it cost the 317 00:18:46,956 --> 00:18:49,596 Speaker 1: people of Barrion County nothing. 318 00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:56,036 Speaker 4: When I instituted the change, I didn't really have much 319 00:18:56,036 --> 00:18:58,796 Speaker 4: of a problem. Nine to one one didn't have a 320 00:18:58,796 --> 00:19:00,956 Speaker 4: problem with this because it just was a difference in 321 00:19:00,996 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 4: coding for them. 322 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 1: It didn't affect them. 323 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:05,916 Speaker 4: The medics themselves really liked it because the medics were like, yep, 324 00:19:06,036 --> 00:19:07,556 Speaker 4: most of these things we were going on are not 325 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:09,756 Speaker 4: priority on board. 326 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: The paramedics are on board. Smooth sailing, except what ended. 327 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:17,516 Speaker 4: Up happening and I'm not exactly sure how this got out. 328 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:21,436 Speaker 4: It went through all the proper channels on my side, 329 00:19:21,476 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 4: like medical control in the hospital in the county, so 330 00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 4: that was okay, But it started getting publicized, and I 331 00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:30,556 Speaker 4: don't exactly know how, but it started showing up on 332 00:19:31,356 --> 00:19:35,996 Speaker 4: the hospital Facebook page about Burian County medical Control is 333 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:39,796 Speaker 4: killing people with slow responses, and oh boy. 334 00:19:40,556 --> 00:19:43,476 Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to Bayer, word had gotten out to the people 335 00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:47,436 Speaker 1: who call ambulances big problem. 336 00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:49,596 Speaker 6: Hey, if you're drive in Barrian County, you won't see 337 00:19:49,596 --> 00:19:52,516 Speaker 6: as many lights and sirens as you're driving. Ambulances will 338 00:19:52,556 --> 00:19:55,236 Speaker 6: be using them only for time sensitive cases like a 339 00:19:55,236 --> 00:19:55,796 Speaker 6: heart attack. 340 00:19:56,116 --> 00:19:58,756 Speaker 1: The local news began doing man on the street interviews. 341 00:19:58,876 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 4: Literally, they were out on the bluff overlooking Lake Michigan, 342 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:04,076 Speaker 4: just interviewing people walking by, going what do you think 343 00:20:04,076 --> 00:20:05,916 Speaker 4: about ambulances coming to your house slower? 344 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:08,396 Speaker 1: And of course people explode over what did they say? 345 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 4: It's like, I can't believe this, and you know that 346 00:20:11,636 --> 00:20:13,876 Speaker 4: this is terrible. Of course I won't ambulance there fast. 347 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:17,156 Speaker 4: And the hospital started getting a lot of flack, some 348 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:20,516 Speaker 4: of it was very nasty. So people started on Facebook 349 00:20:20,556 --> 00:20:24,156 Speaker 4: attacking the hospital. Oh this is Lakeland just killing patients again? 350 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:25,996 Speaker 4: You know, just very bad vitriol. 351 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:30,156 Speaker 1: At the time, though Bayer was blissfully unaware any of 352 00:20:30,196 --> 00:20:33,156 Speaker 1: this was happening. Other jobs were keeping him very busy. 353 00:20:33,596 --> 00:20:35,916 Speaker 1: But then one morning he got a call. 354 00:20:36,716 --> 00:20:39,596 Speaker 4: I'd done a six p to two am shift and 355 00:20:39,676 --> 00:20:42,636 Speaker 4: at eight am I got a call from the administrative 356 00:20:42,636 --> 00:20:45,716 Speaker 4: assistant to the CEO of the hospital. Hi there, doctor Buyer, 357 00:20:46,476 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 4: It's eight am. What are you doing at eight thirty? 358 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:51,676 Speaker 4: I'm like, and I'm still swaking up because again I've 359 00:20:51,676 --> 00:20:55,036 Speaker 4: had four hours of sleep, and she's like, doctor Hamill. 360 00:20:55,156 --> 00:20:57,196 Speaker 4: At that point, the CEO of the hospital would like 361 00:20:57,276 --> 00:20:58,116 Speaker 4: to speak to you. 362 00:20:58,676 --> 00:21:02,516 Speaker 1: Buyer gets dressed in hurries to doctor Hamill's office. 363 00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 4: And I'm met by them in the hospital attorney and 364 00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 4: being shown this Facebook page and they're like, what did 365 00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:10,516 Speaker 4: you do? This is terrible? 366 00:21:11,236 --> 00:21:14,316 Speaker 1: Buyers stunned, and then he begins to lay out the 367 00:21:14,316 --> 00:21:17,276 Speaker 1: case against Sirens in a very doctor buyer way. 368 00:21:17,636 --> 00:21:21,916 Speaker 4: I try to explain what I had done. Is have 369 00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:23,476 Speaker 4: you ever taken physics? 370 00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:27,676 Speaker 1: Buyer explained his move, maybe a little inefficiently, by using 371 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:32,356 Speaker 1: the equation for velocity distance divided by time changed to 372 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:36,396 Speaker 1: solve for time or Tea. It amounted to this, If 373 00:21:36,396 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 1: you're trying to get time down and you can't reduce 374 00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:41,356 Speaker 1: the distance between you and a patient by putting more 375 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:45,116 Speaker 1: ambulances on the street, because it's expensive, the easiest way 376 00:21:45,156 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 1: to get it done is to increase your velocity, which 377 00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:51,396 Speaker 1: means running your lights and sirens. But the problem is, 378 00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:55,396 Speaker 1: we now know that running lights and sirens significantly increases 379 00:21:55,436 --> 00:21:57,676 Speaker 1: the risk of an accident, So maybe you don't want 380 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:00,716 Speaker 1: to do that either. Then the thing to do is 381 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:04,276 Speaker 1: to take a second look at tea. Does time really 382 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:06,636 Speaker 1: need to come down by the small increment that we 383 00:22:06,716 --> 00:22:08,716 Speaker 1: now know lights and sirens is going to reduce it? 384 00:22:09,516 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: Not for most things. 385 00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:13,436 Speaker 4: I showed him some of the studies. He's like, your 386 00:22:13,476 --> 00:22:16,316 Speaker 4: science is sound. You may you go next time, do 387 00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,236 Speaker 4: a press conference. Oh I had a press conference, which 388 00:22:19,236 --> 00:22:19,996 Speaker 4: is what you saw. 389 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:23,076 Speaker 1: Online Buyer confronted the outrage masses. 390 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:25,796 Speaker 4: And once that went out, all complaints disappeared in six 391 00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:28,796 Speaker 4: weeks and I've heard not a thing since then. In fact, 392 00:22:28,836 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 4: now we are considered we right now are the leader 393 00:22:31,236 --> 00:22:33,396 Speaker 4: in Michigan for the lowest rates of lights and sirens 394 00:22:33,476 --> 00:22:34,316 Speaker 4: use in the state of Michigan. 395 00:22:34,396 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 1: For ems. Things worked out for buyer in the end. 396 00:22:37,836 --> 00:22:41,236 Speaker 1: But I'm interested in that initial freak out because it 397 00:22:41,276 --> 00:22:46,116 Speaker 1: reveals a basic assumption people make, myself included. Everything is urgent, 398 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:49,436 Speaker 1: so we accept this social loophole where you can break 399 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 1: all known traffic laws provided you possess a device that 400 00:22:52,716 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 1: emits the loudest, shrillest sound imaginable. What kind of world 401 00:22:57,036 --> 00:23:00,196 Speaker 1: does this? I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have sirens 402 00:23:00,196 --> 00:23:02,276 Speaker 1: at all, but it seems to me that they're not 403 00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:05,796 Speaker 1: only too loud and crazy sounding, but like we use 404 00:23:05,876 --> 00:23:09,036 Speaker 1: them way more often than is necessary because we're unwilling 405 00:23:09,036 --> 00:23:14,636 Speaker 1: to let go of them. But of course, Barrion County 406 00:23:14,676 --> 00:23:18,476 Speaker 1: is just one place. Approximately twenty thousand the MS calls 407 00:23:18,516 --> 00:23:21,796 Speaker 1: a year, and paramedics are just one branch of the 408 00:23:21,836 --> 00:23:25,076 Speaker 1: emergency service. I shouldn't get ahead of myself. I was 409 00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 1: left with two big questions to answer. Next, where did 410 00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:33,876 Speaker 1: we get the idea that sirens are so necessary? And 411 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:38,996 Speaker 1: exactly how unnecessary are they? A good place to look 412 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:41,876 Speaker 1: is the same place we fell in love with the 413 00:23:42,036 --> 00:23:45,356 Speaker 1: MS once upon a time. We'll be right back. 414 00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:08,716 Speaker 8: If you would have asked eighteen year old Jeff when 415 00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:11,316 Speaker 8: I first drove lights and sirens. I would have said 416 00:24:11,356 --> 00:24:16,316 Speaker 8: that they are always life saving and we absolutely need 417 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:18,476 Speaker 8: to use it. But I'm not eighteen anymore. 418 00:24:18,836 --> 00:24:23,316 Speaker 1: Jeff Jarvis the chief Medical Officer for the Metropolitan Area 419 00:24:23,476 --> 00:24:27,876 Speaker 1: EMS Authority in Fort Worth, Texas, an emergency medical service 420 00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:31,276 Speaker 1: that serves over a million people in Fort Worth and 421 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:35,876 Speaker 1: fourteen surrounding cities. He's been a paramedic since the nineteen eighties. 422 00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: He served around New York City in Austin. So eighteen 423 00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:43,316 Speaker 1: year old Jeff who's made his decision to begin to 424 00:24:43,356 --> 00:24:45,836 Speaker 1: be a paramedic. So let me ask you. Let me 425 00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:49,476 Speaker 1: ask you a question. In the nineteen seventies, did you 426 00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:51,876 Speaker 1: ever watch the television show Emergency? 427 00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:52,436 Speaker 8: Oh? 428 00:24:52,476 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 1: Of course? And did that have an effect on your 429 00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:57,076 Speaker 1: becoming a paramedic? 430 00:24:57,316 --> 00:24:59,236 Speaker 8: It did. I thought it was the coolest thing ever. 431 00:24:59,636 --> 00:25:03,516 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy two, NBC began airing a television show 432 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:06,596 Speaker 1: called Emergency. That's got an exclamation point at the end. 433 00:25:06,636 --> 00:25:09,796 Speaker 1: By the way, the theme song is the music they'd 434 00:25:09,796 --> 00:25:21,036 Speaker 1: play in my version of Hell. The show is about 435 00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:24,436 Speaker 1: Johnny and Roy, two young paramedics working out of fire 436 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:28,756 Speaker 1: Station fifty one in Los Angeles, except they're not paramedics 437 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:29,756 Speaker 1: in the beginning that. 438 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:31,076 Speaker 9: Special training program. 439 00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:33,076 Speaker 8: Remember we were talking about it a couple of days ago. 440 00:25:33,316 --> 00:25:38,476 Speaker 1: Yes, sir, the para something or other paramedics. The series 441 00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 1: begins in a world where there basically aren't any paramedics, 442 00:25:42,996 --> 00:25:46,396 Speaker 1: which was our world fifty three years ago. Fifty three 443 00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:50,796 Speaker 1: years in nineteen seventy one, there were a slim twelve 444 00:25:50,876 --> 00:25:54,276 Speaker 1: paramedic units in the entire country and it was kind 445 00:25:54,316 --> 00:25:57,756 Speaker 1: of a Wild West situation. Details varied from place to place, 446 00:25:58,036 --> 00:26:00,636 Speaker 1: but in some areas it was illegal to give someone 447 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:03,036 Speaker 1: medical care if you weren't a doctor or a nurse. 448 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 1: So about fifty percent of ambulances were just hearses driven 449 00:26:08,116 --> 00:26:11,996 Speaker 1: out of funeral homes by morticians whose sole purpose was 450 00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 1: to get patients to doctors as quickly as possible. In 451 00:26:15,516 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 1: that failed back to the funeral home, you go. This 452 00:26:19,556 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 1: is actually how it worked. Emergency was a show dreamed 453 00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:26,956 Speaker 1: up in partnership with the father of modern ms, a 454 00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:29,836 Speaker 1: guy named James Page who worked at one of the 455 00:26:29,876 --> 00:26:33,756 Speaker 1: first firehouses with a paramedic unit in Los Angeles, and 456 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:36,716 Speaker 1: the show was literally meant to make the case for paramedics. 457 00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:42,396 Speaker 1: Every Saturday night nationwide on NBC thirty million viewers at 458 00:26:42,436 --> 00:26:46,396 Speaker 1: a time, not a few of whom became paramedics. 459 00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:48,676 Speaker 9: People at dying at the scene, people who could stay 460 00:26:48,716 --> 00:26:50,436 Speaker 9: alive if there was somebody on the spot who knew 461 00:26:50,476 --> 00:26:50,916 Speaker 9: what to do. 462 00:26:51,556 --> 00:26:52,036 Speaker 1: Look, if that. 463 00:26:52,076 --> 00:26:54,116 Speaker 9: Bill passed the legislature today, do you know how many 464 00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:55,596 Speaker 9: people we'd have ready for the job? 465 00:26:56,676 --> 00:26:58,756 Speaker 8: Six men for six and a half million people. 466 00:26:59,316 --> 00:27:02,436 Speaker 1: I learned about emergency in a brilliant essay by UCLA 467 00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:06,956 Speaker 1: emeritis law professor Paul Bergman, where he traces the profound 468 00:27:06,996 --> 00:27:10,036 Speaker 1: influence the show had not just on par metics, but 469 00:27:10,076 --> 00:27:15,396 Speaker 1: on lawmakers too, by dramatizing just how urgent every single 470 00:27:15,596 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 1: nine to one call is. 471 00:27:17,036 --> 00:27:18,236 Speaker 8: We almost head him back. 472 00:27:18,996 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 9: Damn it, we almost head him back. 473 00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: If you could have been defibrillated the moment they pulled 474 00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:25,556 Speaker 1: him off the wire. This is from the first episode, 475 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:29,276 Speaker 1: right after a maintenance man gets electrocuted and eventually dies. 476 00:27:29,796 --> 00:27:32,276 Speaker 1: The doctor and nurse, who by the way, are of 477 00:27:32,356 --> 00:27:35,116 Speaker 1: course romantically involved, are talking. 478 00:27:35,916 --> 00:27:38,036 Speaker 9: Somebody should have been there with a machine in their bucket, 479 00:27:38,316 --> 00:27:41,596 Speaker 9: not somebody The paramedics again. 480 00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:46,436 Speaker 1: Call him paramedics a rescue team. That doesn't matter. 481 00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:49,676 Speaker 9: Cal if somebody with the right equipment and trained to 482 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:50,116 Speaker 9: use it. 483 00:27:50,116 --> 00:27:52,116 Speaker 8: Had gotten to this man in time, he'd be alive. 484 00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:55,316 Speaker 9: Now, I won't use this situation that justify setting amaters 485 00:27:55,316 --> 00:27:59,156 Speaker 9: out to practice medicine on the street, trained amaters trained 486 00:27:59,196 --> 00:28:02,956 Speaker 9: by you, and doctors like you, amateurs, Dixie. I spent 487 00:28:03,036 --> 00:28:05,516 Speaker 9: twelve years in school and residency and I'm still learning 488 00:28:05,516 --> 00:28:06,076 Speaker 9: my trade. 489 00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:09,636 Speaker 1: It's a doubleheader pilot, and both episodes are full of 490 00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:13,196 Speaker 1: these situations that dramatized the resistance to paramedics, which was 491 00:28:13,356 --> 00:28:17,556 Speaker 1: very real. But the show argues that we need paramedics 492 00:28:17,916 --> 00:28:20,076 Speaker 1: and why do we need them because there are so 493 00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:23,476 Speaker 1: many accidents where if only someone had been there in time, 494 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: we could have saved. 495 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:29,436 Speaker 5: Them, including myself, and thought it could possibly be a success. 496 00:28:31,876 --> 00:28:33,756 Speaker 9: Well, or arm may not function as well as it 497 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:35,756 Speaker 9: used to, but at least it'll be your own. 498 00:28:36,556 --> 00:28:38,276 Speaker 1: You're getting out here as fast as you did. Made 499 00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:41,436 Speaker 1: the difference, Randy, to have around, doc, you gotta give. 500 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 8: Us a try. 501 00:28:42,796 --> 00:28:46,276 Speaker 1: Bergmann, the law professor, talked to the legends of ems 502 00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:50,836 Speaker 1: and he heard all these emergency references. Dug through California 503 00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:54,396 Speaker 1: hearings on the Paramedic Act, and he found emergency references 504 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 1: letters from senators emergency references. In the early years of 505 00:28:59,316 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 1: the show, forty six states legalized paramedicine. To be clear, 506 00:29:04,716 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 1: this was a movement that was already in process, but 507 00:29:07,796 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: emergency was a big part of establishing the cultural expectations 508 00:29:11,716 --> 00:29:14,956 Speaker 1: for what those units would look like. And it looked 509 00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:18,556 Speaker 1: like lights and sirens to every call, because every call 510 00:29:19,116 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 1: was all about time. 511 00:29:21,636 --> 00:29:23,596 Speaker 9: But you can't ask someone not to die while you're 512 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:25,676 Speaker 9: trying to find out what's wrong with him. And they 513 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:28,716 Speaker 9: do die, gentlemen, on the way from where it happens 514 00:29:28,756 --> 00:29:29,676 Speaker 9: to my hospital. 515 00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:33,396 Speaker 1: This is from the second part of the pilot episode, 516 00:29:33,636 --> 00:29:35,916 Speaker 1: when the skeptical doctor has come around. 517 00:29:36,396 --> 00:29:39,676 Speaker 9: They die by the hundreds every year, not from mortal wounds, 518 00:29:39,676 --> 00:29:43,996 Speaker 9: but neglected wounds, not from incompetence or indifference, but from time, 519 00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:49,716 Speaker 9: from lack of time. I'm in favor of more doctors, 520 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 9: more hospitals, and better equipment. And I'm also in favor 521 00:29:54,236 --> 00:29:57,196 Speaker 9: of this bill until those other things come along, because 522 00:29:57,236 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 9: it will save lives, maybe a dozen lives, maybe a thousand, 523 00:30:03,476 --> 00:30:04,316 Speaker 9: maybe just one. 524 00:30:06,036 --> 00:30:12,036 Speaker 1: He's looking directly into the camera, those thirty million viewers, 525 00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:19,156 Speaker 1: and who knows which one time, time time, And if 526 00:30:19,156 --> 00:30:23,316 Speaker 1: you succeed at convincing people that every situation is urgent. 527 00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:27,036 Speaker 1: They're going to come to expect lights and sirens every 528 00:30:27,076 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 1: time they call nine one one, And how many of 529 00:30:29,796 --> 00:30:32,396 Speaker 1: the calls in emergency do they respond to with lights 530 00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:32,756 Speaker 1: and si. 531 00:30:34,116 --> 00:30:38,396 Speaker 8: Absolutely, so think about it this way. On Emergency, every 532 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:41,836 Speaker 8: call was a life threatening emergency. Now I say that 533 00:30:41,956 --> 00:30:44,516 Speaker 8: knowing the first call they went on was not but 534 00:30:45,036 --> 00:30:47,596 Speaker 8: in the team the first episode of the pilot, but 535 00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 8: the vast majority were life threatening emergencies. So sure people 536 00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:57,236 Speaker 8: got that that notion and expectation that that's what would happen. 537 00:30:57,716 --> 00:30:59,996 Speaker 8: There are a lot of paramedics who joined up for 538 00:31:00,116 --> 00:31:03,836 Speaker 8: those life threatening emergencies only to find out that eighty 539 00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:06,276 Speaker 8: five percent of the calls is holding somebody's hand. 540 00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:11,156 Speaker 1: Sirens are all over the show. You may recall that 541 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:15,476 Speaker 1: the literal theme song of Emergency features sirens, and I 542 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:18,476 Speaker 1: think a lot of this time sireen obsession is due 543 00:31:18,516 --> 00:31:21,156 Speaker 1: to the fact that early ems departments were part of 544 00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:24,676 Speaker 1: fire departments, and a fire is a very specific kind 545 00:31:24,716 --> 00:31:29,236 Speaker 1: of emergency. If you don't contain it, it spreads. So 546 00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 1: every fire is an urgent situation, and according to FEMA, anecdotally, 547 00:31:33,796 --> 00:31:37,796 Speaker 1: firefighters use their sirens way more often than the police. 548 00:31:38,116 --> 00:31:42,476 Speaker 1: But these days even the fire service in most places 549 00:31:42,716 --> 00:31:45,356 Speaker 1: seems to be based on an outdated sense of its mission. 550 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:49,196 Speaker 1: As of twenty twenty three, less than four percent of 551 00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:52,636 Speaker 1: all nine one one calls firefighters responded to or for fires, 552 00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:59,156 Speaker 1: most or for ems and rescue. So then it looks 553 00:31:59,196 --> 00:32:04,036 Speaker 1: like the argument about siren reform broadly applies to firefighters too. 554 00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:07,916 Speaker 1: The US Fire Administration actually cited a bunch of studies 555 00:32:07,916 --> 00:32:12,276 Speaker 1: about reducing siren u usage just last year. Sirens are dangerous, 556 00:32:12,676 --> 00:32:16,436 Speaker 1: they save time, but not that much, and things are 557 00:32:16,476 --> 00:32:18,356 Speaker 1: often less urgent than they appear. 558 00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:22,956 Speaker 8: Sometimes that three or four minutes is clinically valuable. Most 559 00:32:22,956 --> 00:32:23,716 Speaker 8: of the time it's not. 560 00:32:25,516 --> 00:32:28,836 Speaker 1: Jeff Jarvis did a massive study on lights and sirens 561 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:32,636 Speaker 1: using something called the ESO data set, a national collection 562 00:32:32,756 --> 00:32:37,036 Speaker 1: of emergency calls with unbelievably granular data attached. 563 00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:41,316 Speaker 8: Seven and a half million records. Five point nine million 564 00:32:41,316 --> 00:32:44,516 Speaker 8: of those were non Wollown responses. We analyzed every one 565 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:48,636 Speaker 8: of those and calculated the proportion that used lights and sirens, 566 00:32:48,676 --> 00:32:51,716 Speaker 8: and eighty five point eight eighty six percent of them 567 00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:55,436 Speaker 8: responded to the scene with lights and sirens. 568 00:32:55,516 --> 00:32:56,116 Speaker 1: Oh my, God. 569 00:32:56,196 --> 00:33:00,396 Speaker 8: The fundamental question we ask is of those responses where 570 00:33:00,396 --> 00:33:03,636 Speaker 8: you use lightcense sirens, how many of them did we 571 00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:07,236 Speaker 8: do something potentially life saving? And what we ended up 572 00:33:07,236 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 8: finding is six point nine of those nine one one 573 00:33:10,756 --> 00:33:15,556 Speaker 8: lights and sirens responses, did we do something even vaguely 574 00:33:15,716 --> 00:33:19,396 Speaker 8: potentially life saving? And we were rather generous with our 575 00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:22,476 Speaker 8: description of what potentially life saving is. 576 00:33:23,396 --> 00:33:27,476 Speaker 1: So this is crucial. Paramedics are responding with lights and 577 00:33:27,476 --> 00:33:31,716 Speaker 1: sirens to around eighty six percent of calls when only 578 00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:36,116 Speaker 1: seven percent of them are resulting in a vaguely potentially 579 00:33:36,156 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 1: life saving intervention, So why were they urgent? That means 580 00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:44,356 Speaker 1: that in the United States, we're using lights and sirens 581 00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:48,716 Speaker 1: somewhere between eighty percent and ninety percent more often than 582 00:33:48,756 --> 00:33:52,516 Speaker 1: we need to. The question I have that I can 583 00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:55,596 Speaker 1: imagine people who are skeptical might ask, is, well, how 584 00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 1: much do you really know from the call? Can you tell? 585 00:33:59,556 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 8: Most folks are using some type of emergency medical dispatch 586 00:34:03,676 --> 00:34:08,836 Speaker 8: where there are scripted questions, and they will give each type. 587 00:34:08,556 --> 00:34:09,876 Speaker 1: Of call. 588 00:34:10,836 --> 00:34:13,236 Speaker 8: A number and a letter, and the letter is called 589 00:34:13,276 --> 00:34:17,116 Speaker 8: the determinant and it goes from your echo level calls 590 00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:20,396 Speaker 8: which are most likely to be life threatening down to 591 00:34:20,436 --> 00:34:23,876 Speaker 8: Omega level calls which are not very likely at all 592 00:34:24,276 --> 00:34:29,796 Speaker 8: to be life threatening. And those criteria have been evaluated 593 00:34:29,996 --> 00:34:33,876 Speaker 8: multiple times with multiple data sets. Again, they're not perfect, 594 00:34:33,916 --> 00:34:38,116 Speaker 8: but they are pretty accurate. For example, there is a 595 00:34:38,476 --> 00:34:43,076 Speaker 8: call nature called eye problem. Zero point sixty seven percent 596 00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:47,396 Speaker 8: of those calls resulted in a potentially life saving intervention. 597 00:34:47,156 --> 00:34:50,676 Speaker 1: And how many do people run hot to all of them? 598 00:34:50,916 --> 00:34:55,436 Speaker 8: It's just dangerous, and it's dangerous, and it's not really 599 00:34:55,476 --> 00:34:57,516 Speaker 8: doing what we think it is. So it seems like 600 00:34:57,636 --> 00:34:59,996 Speaker 8: it is an intervention whose time has come and gone. 601 00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:03,156 Speaker 1: So I want to play for you again a very 602 00:35:03,156 --> 00:35:06,556 Speaker 1: specific moment from the pilot episode of Emergency and the 603 00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:09,876 Speaker 1: speech that doctor gave to the legislature about why we 604 00:35:10,036 --> 00:35:11,076 Speaker 1: need ems. 605 00:35:11,556 --> 00:35:15,596 Speaker 9: I'm in favor of more doctors, more hospitals, and better equipment, 606 00:35:16,476 --> 00:35:18,676 Speaker 9: and I'm also in favor of this bill until those 607 00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:19,716 Speaker 9: other things come along. 608 00:35:19,996 --> 00:35:25,316 Speaker 1: But those other things have come along. More doctors, advances 609 00:35:25,316 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 1: in the ways we take nine to one one calls, 610 00:35:27,916 --> 00:35:31,916 Speaker 1: better in more emergency rooms, better in more emergency medicine, better, 611 00:35:32,036 --> 00:35:37,396 Speaker 1: and more paramedics to use Buyer's formula. We have reduced distance. 612 00:35:37,916 --> 00:35:40,876 Speaker 1: Paramedic units are all over the place now in a 613 00:35:40,876 --> 00:35:44,116 Speaker 1: way they just weren't in the world of emergency. But 614 00:35:44,756 --> 00:35:47,516 Speaker 1: it seems to me like in our minds and on TV, 615 00:35:48,156 --> 00:35:50,956 Speaker 1: it's as if nothing has changed since the nineteen seventies. 616 00:35:52,156 --> 00:35:55,876 Speaker 1: Emergency was the most significant early example of an entire 617 00:35:55,996 --> 00:36:00,356 Speaker 1: genre of TV show that dramatized the emergency services. Before 618 00:36:00,356 --> 00:36:03,476 Speaker 1: there was Cops or Rescue nine one one, there was emergency. 619 00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:07,396 Speaker 1: And here's the trick. All of those TV shows are 620 00:36:07,396 --> 00:36:11,756 Speaker 1: based on the narrative conventions that emergency pioneer, a world 621 00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:14,276 Speaker 1: in which the TV show had not yet done its work, 622 00:36:14,436 --> 00:36:17,636 Speaker 1: and help was always too far away and always came 623 00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:21,076 Speaker 1: with lights and sirens blaring, because that's what firefighters did. 624 00:36:22,916 --> 00:36:27,916 Speaker 1: And these shows are everywhere. Rescue Me, sky Mett, Live Rescue, 625 00:36:28,076 --> 00:36:32,996 Speaker 1: Helicopter Heroes, Island Medics, Air Ambulance Er, a show that 626 00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:36,676 Speaker 1: was literally called Sirens, which is what they'll play on 627 00:36:36,796 --> 00:36:40,236 Speaker 1: TV in Hell for me. They even make this stuff 628 00:36:40,236 --> 00:36:45,356 Speaker 1: for kids. This is what Paw Patrol is, start them young. 629 00:36:47,516 --> 00:36:51,556 Speaker 8: There is in emergency departments everywhere I see as there's 630 00:36:51,556 --> 00:36:55,876 Speaker 8: this concept called alarm fatigue, where when everything is an alarm, 631 00:36:56,156 --> 00:37:01,396 Speaker 8: nothing is an alarm. To paraphrase, The Incredibles, the Car 632 00:37:01,556 --> 00:37:05,876 Speaker 8: Chain movie. So you just get immune to these sirens 633 00:37:05,876 --> 00:37:07,636 Speaker 8: that are not doing the job. 634 00:37:08,276 --> 00:37:12,436 Speaker 1: So Jarvis, like Buyer, reduce the use of lights and sirens. 635 00:37:13,156 --> 00:37:16,236 Speaker 1: He cut them by about a third. Did their response 636 00:37:16,316 --> 00:37:21,316 Speaker 1: time increase, Yes, by a median of six seconds, and 637 00:37:21,356 --> 00:37:24,356 Speaker 1: in the vast majority of cases by less. 638 00:37:25,396 --> 00:37:27,156 Speaker 8: So it's turning out it's not making that much of 639 00:37:27,156 --> 00:37:29,316 Speaker 8: a difference in we're being much safer. 640 00:37:29,796 --> 00:37:32,156 Speaker 1: And this I realized this is purely in the realm 641 00:37:32,756 --> 00:37:37,116 Speaker 1: of hypothesis, but it seems to me common sensical that 642 00:37:37,796 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 1: were lights and sirens reserved for truly emergency use, you 643 00:37:41,196 --> 00:37:45,356 Speaker 1: would see a more potent reaction to them, and likely 644 00:37:45,396 --> 00:37:48,276 Speaker 1: then it would it could it could possibly decrease response times. 645 00:37:49,436 --> 00:37:52,756 Speaker 8: So I'll put my scientist hat on and say that's 646 00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:56,236 Speaker 8: an interesting hypothesis that needs to be tested. I will 647 00:37:56,276 --> 00:37:59,436 Speaker 8: put my realist in my pragmatic public health hat on 648 00:37:59,636 --> 00:38:03,836 Speaker 8: and say, absolutely, giddy up. I absolutely think you'll see that. 649 00:38:04,076 --> 00:38:06,676 Speaker 1: I like that hat. That's a very stylish hat. You're 650 00:38:06,676 --> 00:38:11,076 Speaker 1: all right, So here it is. Lights and sirens are 651 00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:15,036 Speaker 1: a tool that currently seem to be way overused, and 652 00:38:15,116 --> 00:38:19,796 Speaker 1: that overuse has real consequences. Most of all, for our 653 00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:23,476 Speaker 1: burnt out, overstretched first responders who go to work to 654 00:38:23,556 --> 00:38:26,276 Speaker 1: save lives and wind up responding to everything as if 655 00:38:26,276 --> 00:38:29,876 Speaker 1: it's a crisis, wearing themselves out and losing their hearing 656 00:38:29,876 --> 00:38:36,156 Speaker 1: in the process. In twenty fifteen, fifteen hundred firemen sued 657 00:38:36,196 --> 00:38:39,356 Speaker 1: that company Federal Signal, the one that makes the iconic 658 00:38:39,396 --> 00:38:43,596 Speaker 1: fire siren, for causing mass loss of hearing. A lawyer 659 00:38:43,636 --> 00:38:48,596 Speaker 1: opposing them said, and I, quote, what's their solution. If 660 00:38:48,636 --> 00:38:51,636 Speaker 1: you don't have sirens, people would get mowed down in 661 00:38:51,676 --> 00:38:55,836 Speaker 1: the streets. The siren works exactly the way it should 662 00:38:56,716 --> 00:39:02,516 Speaker 1: end quote. I could not disagree more. And you know 663 00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:25,876 Speaker 1: who else disagrees that's right? I found him. Okay, I 664 00:39:25,916 --> 00:39:34,636 Speaker 1: am approaching Davy's house, which is coincidentally directly behind my house. 665 00:39:35,836 --> 00:39:38,196 Speaker 1: I was just walking down my street one day when 666 00:39:38,196 --> 00:39:41,716 Speaker 1: an ambulance rushed by and I saw this dopey yellow 667 00:39:41,836 --> 00:39:46,316 Speaker 1: lab stiffening owl. I'd know that owl anywhere. I rushed 668 00:39:46,316 --> 00:39:47,396 Speaker 1: over it and I was like, hey, I've got a 669 00:39:47,436 --> 00:39:50,516 Speaker 1: question about your dog, and his owner was very obliging. 670 00:39:51,076 --> 00:39:55,276 Speaker 1: His name is Joe. The dog's name Davy, And a 671 00:39:55,276 --> 00:40:03,356 Speaker 1: while later I came by their house for an interview 672 00:40:08,476 --> 00:40:11,076 Speaker 1: that was a very that was very satisfied. Sniff said, 673 00:40:11,116 --> 00:40:14,316 Speaker 1: I got Jen and Joe live one street over from 674 00:40:14,316 --> 00:40:18,276 Speaker 1: me and Julia, a beautiful brownstone, two kids, and a 675 00:40:18,316 --> 00:40:22,396 Speaker 1: noisy dog. We sat down at their kitchen table. I 676 00:40:22,436 --> 00:40:27,516 Speaker 1: am curious if you could tell me about when you 677 00:40:27,596 --> 00:40:33,836 Speaker 1: realize that you had a sort of eccentric dog. Well, 678 00:40:34,156 --> 00:40:34,876 Speaker 1: I guess it. 679 00:40:34,836 --> 00:40:38,116 Speaker 6: Was like the first time we heard him howling at sirens, 680 00:40:38,156 --> 00:40:40,796 Speaker 6: because he didn't seem particularly distressed by it. Like a 681 00:40:40,796 --> 00:40:45,516 Speaker 6: lot of times his tail wags and he does get 682 00:40:45,596 --> 00:40:48,836 Speaker 6: quite a reaction from like the neighbors, like the neighborhood, 683 00:40:48,996 --> 00:40:53,356 Speaker 6: Like everyone usually turns around and stops and like laughs 684 00:40:53,436 --> 00:40:55,716 Speaker 6: and was there, like I've never heard that before. 685 00:40:56,036 --> 00:40:58,076 Speaker 1: It turns out Davy is starting a movement. 686 00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:02,036 Speaker 6: His dog walker always like posts like sends us emails 687 00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:05,036 Speaker 6: like describing their walk. So you know, sometimes Davy has 688 00:41:05,036 --> 00:41:08,876 Speaker 6: gotten his his co his co partners in walking the 689 00:41:08,956 --> 00:41:11,036 Speaker 6: other dogs to start to howl with him. 690 00:41:11,956 --> 00:41:13,476 Speaker 1: But he's always the first towler. 691 00:41:13,636 --> 00:41:15,716 Speaker 6: It's definitely always the first howlur. But I think he 692 00:41:15,796 --> 00:41:17,836 Speaker 6: has taught some of the other dogs like how to 693 00:41:17,876 --> 00:41:19,956 Speaker 6: maybe start doing this, so. 694 00:41:19,796 --> 00:41:23,236 Speaker 1: Their owners must be thrilled. Jen is a psychologist, Joe 695 00:41:23,316 --> 00:41:26,716 Speaker 1: is a composer for film and television, so together they're 696 00:41:26,716 --> 00:41:30,516 Speaker 1: experts on mammalian behavior and sound. So I'm inclined to 697 00:41:30,516 --> 00:41:33,436 Speaker 1: believe their analysis of Davy's views on the sirens subject. 698 00:41:33,876 --> 00:41:36,756 Speaker 1: He's not in distress, which means he's not going to 699 00:41:36,796 --> 00:41:40,636 Speaker 1: be the poster child for my anti siren campaign. But 700 00:41:40,676 --> 00:41:42,956 Speaker 1: I hadn't given up yet. Do you share this view 701 00:41:42,996 --> 00:41:46,836 Speaker 1: of Davy's howl origins or what? So? 702 00:41:46,956 --> 00:41:49,596 Speaker 5: There's there's another theory, which this is the one I 703 00:41:49,636 --> 00:41:51,796 Speaker 5: think I if I had to choose one that I 704 00:41:51,796 --> 00:41:53,796 Speaker 5: would like to believe the most, it is. It is 705 00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:58,996 Speaker 5: that the sirens harken back to a lost dog who 706 00:41:59,396 --> 00:42:02,316 Speaker 5: has been separated from the group, and they are howling 707 00:42:02,636 --> 00:42:06,196 Speaker 5: to reconnect with the pack like a like a call 708 00:42:06,276 --> 00:42:10,076 Speaker 5: and answer from a lost dog. That's one of the series, 709 00:42:11,596 --> 00:42:15,756 Speaker 5: And that Davy is saying, we're over here. Come on, 710 00:42:15,916 --> 00:42:17,836 Speaker 5: lost buddy, this is where we are. 711 00:42:18,276 --> 00:42:19,636 Speaker 6: He is a very nigh early dog. 712 00:42:20,236 --> 00:42:21,116 Speaker 5: It loves to hang. 713 00:42:22,436 --> 00:42:25,476 Speaker 1: Jen and Joe are very neighborly people. I'm glad to 714 00:42:25,476 --> 00:42:29,156 Speaker 1: know them now, even if their dog is a huge disappointment. 715 00:42:29,316 --> 00:42:33,356 Speaker 1: My anti Siren cusade, seeing as he really love sirens. 716 00:42:34,476 --> 00:42:37,676 Speaker 1: But it makes sense. It goes back to that evolutionary 717 00:42:37,676 --> 00:42:40,356 Speaker 1: theory Malcolm was talking about at the top of the episode, 718 00:42:41,076 --> 00:42:43,916 Speaker 1: the idea of the spandrel and the things in our 719 00:42:43,956 --> 00:42:46,716 Speaker 1: bodies and our worlds that we think we're selected for 720 00:42:47,676 --> 00:42:51,996 Speaker 1: but actually are just there and maybe not doing us 721 00:42:52,036 --> 00:42:56,476 Speaker 1: a whole lot of good. Davy's howl isn't quite a spandrel, 722 00:42:56,556 --> 00:43:00,316 Speaker 1: if we're being banantic. It's more like a vestige. He 723 00:43:00,396 --> 00:43:02,596 Speaker 1: thinks he's living with a pack of dogs in the wild, 724 00:43:02,636 --> 00:43:06,236 Speaker 1: but he's not. He's a house dog who lives in Brooklyn, 725 00:43:07,076 --> 00:43:10,636 Speaker 1: a block away from a busy grocery store or a playground, 726 00:43:11,236 --> 00:43:15,356 Speaker 1: a frustrated podcaster, a New York City government employee and 727 00:43:15,396 --> 00:43:18,916 Speaker 1: a fire station, a celebrity ignorant of his own fame, 728 00:43:20,116 --> 00:43:23,356 Speaker 1: and a howler who howls just because that's what he's 729 00:43:23,396 --> 00:43:48,036 Speaker 1: always done. Revisionist History is produced by me Ben matt 730 00:43:48,036 --> 00:43:52,876 Speaker 1: of Haffrey, Nina Bird Lawrence, and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor 731 00:43:53,116 --> 00:43:57,316 Speaker 1: is Karen Chakerji. Original scoring and theme by Louis Garra, 732 00:43:58,076 --> 00:44:02,276 Speaker 1: Additional scoring by Jake Gorski. Jacob Smith is our executive 733 00:44:02,276 --> 00:44:07,796 Speaker 1: producer engineering by Marcelo d Olivera. I relied on quite 734 00:44:07,796 --> 00:44:10,076 Speaker 1: a few studies in researching this and put a link 735 00:44:10,116 --> 00:44:12,316 Speaker 1: to the bibliography in the show notes should you want 736 00:44:12,316 --> 00:44:15,676 Speaker 1: any references for starting your own local movement. Special things 737 00:44:15,676 --> 00:44:19,236 Speaker 1: also to Douglas Koupas, whose work helped launch the field 738 00:44:19,276 --> 00:44:25,356 Speaker 1: of sign reform studies, Mike Tageman, Helen k Rosenthal, Stephen Solomon, 739 00:44:25,876 --> 00:44:44,876 Speaker 1: and Paul Bergman. I'm Ben Mattahaffrey. The really Alarming music 740 00:44:44,956 --> 00:44:48,156 Speaker 1: You're hearing right Now was composed by davi's owner Joe 741 00:44:48,196 --> 00:44:51,396 Speaker 1: Saba for the trailer of the Michael Bay film Ambulance. 742 00:45:30,636 --> 00:45:33,636 Speaker 2: Get add free episodes of Revision's history by subscribing to 743 00:45:33,636 --> 00:45:37,516 Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus. Sign up on the show page on Apple Podcasts, 744 00:45:37,916 --> 00:45:42,516 Speaker 2: or at pushkin dot fm, slash plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers 745 00:45:42,676 --> 00:45:47,396 Speaker 2: can access ad free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and 746 00:45:47,636 --> 00:45:50,516 Speaker 2: bonus content for all Pushkin shows.