WEBVTT - Misogyny in Game Design is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.956 Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Junior. I wasn't 0:00:25.996 --> 0:00:30.076 thinking about starting a women's organization or a summer camp company. 0:00:30.116 --> 0:00:33.196 I just wanted to make games. About two point eight 0:00:33.316 --> 0:00:38.156 billion people play video games worldwide, from Fortnite to Rocket League, 0:00:38.196 --> 0:00:42.956 my personal favorite. Gaming is a popular form of entertainment, relaxation, 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:46.676 and a way to connect with friends and sometimes strangers. 0:00:47.196 --> 0:00:49.316 When I started Girls Make Games, I really wasn't very 0:00:49.316 --> 0:00:52.596 familiar with gaming, and I did grow up playing on 0:00:52.636 --> 0:00:56.036 my Atari and some arcade games like street Fighter or Teken, 0:00:56.876 --> 0:00:59.476 but that was the extent of it. That's Layla Shaber. 0:00:59.756 --> 0:01:02.996 She's the co founder and CEO of Girls Make Games, 0:01:03.196 --> 0:01:06.716 an organization that aims to introduce game design to young girls. 0:01:07.236 --> 0:01:10.596 Many people, including me my, spend a lot of time gaming, 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:12.996 but rarely take the time to think about who's making 0:01:13.036 --> 0:01:17.076 these games and what goes into development. And that means 0:01:17.276 --> 0:01:21.156 you know, programming your game, designing your character, making art 0:01:21.196 --> 0:01:25.476 for it, animating it, adding sound effects, sometimes even creating 0:01:25.756 --> 0:01:29.196 and recording those sound effects from everyday objects that are 0:01:29.236 --> 0:01:33.676 around you, testing it, and finally implementing and sharing it 0:01:33.716 --> 0:01:35.796 with people so they can play your game. She founded 0:01:35.836 --> 0:01:38.276 a game studio with her husband, but when it came 0:01:38.276 --> 0:01:41.716 to hiring, she realized just how underrepresented women are in 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:44.756 the gaming industry. She launched an annual summer camp to 0:01:44.796 --> 0:01:47.316 solve that problem. And it was just very shocking to 0:01:47.356 --> 0:01:49.396 me because I'd come from banking and research in all 0:01:49.436 --> 0:01:52.836 these other places where we had a lot more diversity, 0:01:52.916 --> 0:01:54.716 you know, even though it was male dominated. It was 0:01:54.796 --> 0:01:58.316 something like maybe fifty five forty five or sixty forty, 0:01:58.396 --> 0:02:00.516 but not like eighty twenty, which is what gaming is. 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:04.156 Layla's husband was a professional gamer himself, and he introduced 0:02:04.156 --> 0:02:07.196 her to the kinds of opportunities the world of gaming provides. 0:02:07.876 --> 0:02:10.276 He didn't talk to me about how cool gaming is. 0:02:10.276 --> 0:02:12.596 He talked to me about how powerful and how influential 0:02:12.636 --> 0:02:15.356 gaming is. Because nine out of ten kids play games 0:02:15.356 --> 0:02:17.916 in the US. That's a lot of kids. That's a 0:02:17.996 --> 0:02:23.596 lot of young people being shaped by one medium. Nearly 0:02:23.636 --> 0:02:27.356 fifty percent of people who play video games identify as female, 0:02:27.596 --> 0:02:30.076 but less than thirty percent of game developers or women. 0:02:30.756 --> 0:02:42.556 This is a problem that we can solve. I was 0:02:42.596 --> 0:02:45.956 working in research and kind of on my way to 0:02:46.356 --> 0:02:49.276 getting a PhD eventually and becoming a professor because I 0:02:49.316 --> 0:02:52.476 wanted to do something meaningful with my life. I wanted 0:02:52.516 --> 0:02:56.076 to be a teacher, and for my husband. He's a 0:02:56.116 --> 0:02:58.836 fairly intelligent guy and he was playing Halo competitively and 0:02:58.876 --> 0:03:00.716 I just couldn't. When I first met him, it just 0:03:00.716 --> 0:03:02.516 blew my mind. I was like, why would anyone waste 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:06.276 their life away gaming and call themselves a professional gamer? 0:03:06.876 --> 0:03:10.356 And so he opened my eyes to the possibilities in gaming. 0:03:10.356 --> 0:03:13.196 And I think the way he did it was really 0:03:13.236 --> 0:03:15.756 smart because he didn't talk to me about how cool 0:03:15.796 --> 0:03:17.836 gaming is. He talked to me about how powerful and 0:03:17.876 --> 0:03:20.876 how influential gaming is. Because nine out of ten kids 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:23.476 play games in the US. That's a lot of kids. 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:27.316 That's a lot of young people being shaped by one medium. 0:03:27.476 --> 0:03:30.596 So think about the power it has over shaping our 0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:33.556 society and what are we doing with that power. Who 0:03:33.556 --> 0:03:36.516 are the people behind the scenes making the games that 0:03:36.596 --> 0:03:38.996 these kids play. He didn't talk to me about any 0:03:38.996 --> 0:03:40.916 of that. It was something that I discovered on my own. 0:03:40.956 --> 0:03:43.316 He just showed me how influential it was and how 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:46.636 good it would be for us to combine our interests 0:03:46.636 --> 0:03:48.876 of my interest to teach and his interest to make games. 0:03:49.196 --> 0:03:52.036 And so we wanted to make educational games. So did 0:03:52.036 --> 0:03:56.596 Girls Make Games start as an educational game? Like? How 0:03:56.636 --> 0:03:59.956 did the camp emerge from your work with your gaming studio. 0:04:00.476 --> 0:04:03.596 It wasn't until we started, like we launched our game 0:04:03.636 --> 0:04:06.876 studio that I went out to gaming conferences and developers 0:04:06.916 --> 0:04:09.956 conferences and I would be the only, oftentimes the only 0:04:09.996 --> 0:04:12.156 woman in the room, and definitely the only woman of 0:04:12.156 --> 0:04:16.156 color in the room, woman of color, non gaming background, 0:04:16.236 --> 0:04:19.396 so really complete outsider. And it was just very shocking 0:04:19.396 --> 0:04:21.396 to me because I'd come from banking and research in 0:04:21.436 --> 0:04:24.396 all these other places where we had a lot more diversity, 0:04:24.476 --> 0:04:26.276 you know, even though it was male dominated. It was 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:29.876 something like maybe fifty five forty five or sixty forty, 0:04:29.916 --> 0:04:32.076 but not like eighty twenty, which is what gaming is. 0:04:32.916 --> 0:04:36.036 So it just kind of shocked me. And I wasn't 0:04:36.076 --> 0:04:40.156 thinking about starting a women's organization or a summer camp company. 0:04:40.156 --> 0:04:42.876 I just wanted to make games. But I got a 0:04:42.996 --> 0:04:47.516 sidetracked by the shock. So how did you go for 0:04:47.596 --> 0:04:52.876 getting sidetracked into creating Girls Make Games? So while I 0:04:52.876 --> 0:04:55.396 was working on my first game, we were placed hasting 0:04:55.436 --> 0:04:57.716 it all over the country, going to schools and you know, 0:04:57.836 --> 0:05:00.836 little fairs and maker fair and things like that, and 0:05:00.876 --> 0:05:03.756 we would have lots of kids come up having fun 0:05:03.756 --> 0:05:06.036 with the game. But when we went to the developers conferences, 0:05:06.036 --> 0:05:07.556 a lot of people would tell us girls are not 0:05:07.596 --> 0:05:10.116 as interested in making games. When I tried to recruit 0:05:10.156 --> 0:05:14.396 from my studio, we had about eight job openings and 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:17.316 they ended up being all filled by boys, because ninety 0:05:17.876 --> 0:05:20.796 nine percent of the applications we received were from young 0:05:20.836 --> 0:05:23.836 men who proclaimed that this was their dream job. And 0:05:23.876 --> 0:05:25.396 I was just so shocked as I was like, oh 0:05:25.436 --> 0:05:27.956 my god, it's going to be just me and ten 0:05:28.036 --> 0:05:32.756 boys making a game. And oftentimes, again in the room, 0:05:32.796 --> 0:05:34.996 I would be the only one with like different opinion 0:05:35.156 --> 0:05:39.476 or perspective, and it's just very natural for me to 0:05:39.556 --> 0:05:42.596 start thinking, if it's gonna be you know, these boys 0:05:42.636 --> 0:05:44.676 making games, is the game gonna end up being more 0:05:44.676 --> 0:05:47.636 interesting to boys? Or world girls play this too? And 0:05:47.716 --> 0:05:50.596 how do I go meet young girls who might be 0:05:50.636 --> 0:05:54.436 interested in playing or eventually becoming developers. So really the 0:05:54.476 --> 0:05:57.756 first camp was a social experiment. I'm an economist by training, 0:05:57.756 --> 0:06:01.396 so it's really important for me to gather empirical data, 0:06:01.516 --> 0:06:05.676 and so that first camp was sort of my research 0:06:05.756 --> 0:06:09.596 ground for our game. But by the end of the camp. 0:06:09.836 --> 0:06:12.756 It was such an emotional experience for so many of 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:14.836 the kids, and I remember the last day of camp. 0:06:14.916 --> 0:06:17.276 We're all crying. The kids were crying. I was crying, 0:06:17.276 --> 0:06:19.716 the parents are crying. We're all like. I was like, 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:21.956 this is so weird. This is not what I expected. 0:06:22.276 --> 0:06:23.716 You know, the kids that came in and they're talking 0:06:23.716 --> 0:06:25.276 about this is the one place that I feel like 0:06:25.276 --> 0:06:28.036 I could be myself. This is the only camp I've 0:06:28.076 --> 0:06:30.476 been to where I'm not the only girl. I didn't 0:06:30.476 --> 0:06:32.596 know there were other girls like me who loved playing 0:06:32.676 --> 0:06:36.076 video games. So hearing those things over and over in 0:06:36.116 --> 0:06:39.476 different forms just kind of solidified in my mind this 0:06:39.636 --> 0:06:42.916 something that was needed and it just didn't exist. And 0:06:42.956 --> 0:06:44.796 so I told my team I'm going to go on 0:06:44.916 --> 0:06:47.836 a one year hiatus. And that was seven years ago. 0:06:50.236 --> 0:06:52.636 So I'm still on that hiatus because Girls and Games 0:06:52.636 --> 0:06:55.196 has just grown from that one camp to sort of 0:06:55.276 --> 0:06:59.996 a global organization, and especially during COVID going virtual and 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.756 reaching kids all over the world. It's just been a 0:07:02.836 --> 0:07:05.996 very unexpected journey, but I know it's something that's needed 0:07:05.996 --> 0:07:08.716 and that's why we continue to do it. Can you 0:07:08.756 --> 0:07:12.476 explain what goes on at Girls Make games camps. Yeah, absolutely, so. 0:07:12.756 --> 0:07:15.276 A lot of it is it's like a regular camp. 0:07:15.396 --> 0:07:19.036 You show up, you make friends, you play games. You 0:07:19.396 --> 0:07:22.796 have great counselors who also become your mentors and help 0:07:22.836 --> 0:07:25.716 guide you through the process. But the really magical thing 0:07:25.756 --> 0:07:28.356 that happens is the sense of community and belonging because, 0:07:28.476 --> 0:07:30.276 like I said, for a lot of the kids that 0:07:30.396 --> 0:07:32.796 come to camp, this is the only place they've been 0:07:32.836 --> 0:07:36.116 to where they were surrounded by people who look like them. 0:07:36.756 --> 0:07:38.956 When they have speakers, you know, when we're speakers that 0:07:38.996 --> 0:07:41.316 come into camp, these are women who work in the industry, 0:07:41.756 --> 0:07:46.196 great role models, extremely successful leaders. They talk about their 0:07:46.316 --> 0:07:48.796 journeys and how you know, they didn't know if they 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:51.196 wanted to become game developers, and how they ended up 0:07:51.196 --> 0:07:53.396 to where they are. These are stories they don't get 0:07:53.396 --> 0:07:56.556 to hear every day, but for fifteen days they're completely 0:07:56.556 --> 0:08:00.716 immersed in this magical place. In their words, there's a 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:03.196 really fun feature where at the end of camp, your 0:08:03.196 --> 0:08:05.476 team gets to pitch your game to a panel of 0:08:05.516 --> 0:08:08.796 industry judges, and the judges have included people like Phil 0:08:08.876 --> 0:08:11.876 Spend who's the head of Xbox, and Sean Leiden, previous 0:08:11.916 --> 0:08:13.836 head of PlayStations so we'll have a lot of really 0:08:13.876 --> 0:08:17.636 senior leaders who are judges, and the winning game gets 0:08:17.676 --> 0:08:21.516 kickstarted and then professionally developed and published. We published a 0:08:21.596 --> 0:08:25.596 title on the PlayStation. We published a title this year 0:08:25.636 --> 0:08:28.236 in twenty twenty two on the Nintendo Switch. So that's 0:08:28.276 --> 0:08:30.516 kind of how the game studio side of my business works, 0:08:30.516 --> 0:08:33.076 where we're like, we're taking these girls or bringing their 0:08:33.116 --> 0:08:34.996 vision to life and putting it out on the story 0:08:35.036 --> 0:08:38.796 so people can play them. That's awesome. So can you 0:08:38.796 --> 0:08:41.316 talk a little bit more about your your studios because 0:08:41.396 --> 0:08:43.516 I'm recognizing you have you have separate paths here, so 0:08:43.556 --> 0:08:47.236 one of them's more altruistic and the other is actually 0:08:47.276 --> 0:08:51.396 you creating games. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I really the 0:08:51.396 --> 0:08:53.236 reason I got into the games industry was to make 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:54.796 games because I wanted to be a part of it, 0:08:54.836 --> 0:08:57.596 and I think I still would like to continue making games. 0:08:57.596 --> 0:09:00.516 It's just in the last years eight years, the only 0:09:00.556 --> 0:09:03.276 games that we've ended up making have been creatively led 0:09:03.316 --> 0:09:05.956 and designed by young girls. Can you take us through 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:09.636 one of those games? Yeah, like, describe one for us absolutely. 0:09:10.116 --> 0:09:12.396 One of my favorites, which is coming out next year 0:09:12.556 --> 0:09:15.156 on the Switch, is called Shredded Secrets. It's actually an 0:09:15.156 --> 0:09:19.276 anti bullying game. So the game's designed by four young 0:09:19.356 --> 0:09:22.756 teens from Seattle, and each one of them ended up 0:09:22.796 --> 0:09:26.436 writing a story arc. So you actually followed through four 0:09:26.516 --> 0:09:28.956 characters that are in a middle school, three students and 0:09:28.996 --> 0:09:32.516 a teacher. There's a bully and a victim. So there's 0:09:32.516 --> 0:09:35.276 a bully and a girl getting bullied, but you get 0:09:35.316 --> 0:09:38.196 to play through each one and kind of learn what 0:09:38.276 --> 0:09:39.996 they're going through in their life. And I thought that 0:09:40.076 --> 0:09:43.436 was so amazing the way the kids approached it, because 0:09:43.756 --> 0:09:46.356 not only did this show how hard bullying is on 0:09:46.436 --> 0:09:49.676 the victim, the ultra showed why the bully was acting 0:09:49.676 --> 0:09:52.756 out and how his life was kind of, you know, 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:54.836 whatever he was going through. It wasn't all about hey, 0:09:54.956 --> 0:09:57.076 he's evil and you're the good one and you know, 0:09:57.436 --> 0:10:00.316 go fight evil. It was more about building empathy in 0:10:00.396 --> 0:10:03.756 the player. So as you progress through the game, you're 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:06.916 getting to fill in all these different shoes and by 0:10:06.956 --> 0:10:08.396 the end you kind of walk away with a sense 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:10.276 of WHOA, I can't believe thirteen year olds to make 0:10:10.356 --> 0:10:14.636 this game. So that was amazing. It sounds amazing. So 0:10:14.796 --> 0:10:16.996 your company is making all the games from the camp 0:10:17.076 --> 0:10:20.876 or the winner is the only one that's that's the 0:10:20.956 --> 0:10:33.356 grand prize. That's awesome. Tell me a little bit more 0:10:33.356 --> 0:10:36.716 about the tech and the types of skills that girls 0:10:36.756 --> 0:10:40.916 make games actually teaches. You learn everything that goes into 0:10:40.996 --> 0:10:43.916 making a game from you know, taking your concept that's 0:10:43.916 --> 0:10:47.556 sort of an abstract idea, an idea like I like cats, 0:10:48.276 --> 0:10:52.196 to becoming a full game, and that means you know, 0:10:52.236 --> 0:10:56.156 programming your game, designing your character, so making art for it, 0:10:56.236 --> 0:11:01.076 animating it, adding sound effects, sometimes even creating and recording 0:11:01.116 --> 0:11:03.876 those sound effects from you know, everyday objects that are 0:11:03.916 --> 0:11:07.436 around you, and then putting that into the game, testing it, 0:11:07.756 --> 0:11:10.756 and finally implement and sharing it with people so they 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:12.836 can play your game, so they go through the full 0:11:13.436 --> 0:11:16.876 indie developer experience, which is I have a dream too, 0:11:16.916 --> 0:11:21.276 I have a game. I love it now. Some of 0:11:21.276 --> 0:11:23.796 my favorite games are Fortnite, Rocket League, and some of 0:11:23.796 --> 0:11:27.276 these games are very violent. Yeah, and how much are 0:11:27.316 --> 0:11:31.316 you guys focused on making games that don't include violence? 0:11:31.316 --> 0:11:34.636 Like what role does violence in video games play in 0:11:35.036 --> 0:11:38.956 girls make games? We're very lucky. We've never really had 0:11:39.036 --> 0:11:41.596 to talk to anyone and say your game is too violent. 0:11:42.036 --> 0:11:45.676 At most, we've had maybe cartoonish violence We definitely have shooters. 0:11:45.676 --> 0:11:49.516 We've had fps's first person shooters, But the context matters. 0:11:49.556 --> 0:11:51.676 If I'm shooting fruit at you or if I'm shooting 0:11:51.676 --> 0:11:54.036 paint at you, it feels very different from you know, 0:11:54.116 --> 0:11:56.436 if there's blood all over the screen. So the mechanic 0:11:56.596 --> 0:12:00.956 is okay. The context matters. If TV and movies can 0:12:00.996 --> 0:12:03.436 be violent, so can video games. If TV and movies 0:12:03.516 --> 0:12:05.876 can move you and change you and educate you, so 0:12:05.996 --> 0:12:07.636 con video games. So you have to be able to 0:12:07.716 --> 0:12:11.436 draw those parallels. And we need smart people. We need 0:12:12.476 --> 0:12:16.116 problem solvers, we need writers, designers, we need all kinds 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:18.916 of people to come join us and help build the 0:12:18.956 --> 0:12:21.836 feature of the industry because we're going places. I mean, 0:12:21.876 --> 0:12:23.996 gaming is growing so fast. It's already one of the 0:12:24.036 --> 0:12:27.756 fastest industries. When I tell people that gaming makes more 0:12:27.756 --> 0:12:31.836 money than music and Hollywood combined, their shock. Yes, right, 0:12:33.236 --> 0:12:36.316 So video games are pervasive, They're everywhere, and they're going 0:12:36.356 --> 0:12:38.916 to continue to be everywhere and grow. So it would 0:12:38.956 --> 0:12:41.116 be awesome if we had more women and diverse people 0:12:41.116 --> 0:12:44.236 come be a part of the movement. Are there any 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:47.716 pitfalls or obstacles that you faced being a woman in 0:12:47.756 --> 0:12:51.876 the gaming industry that you're able to kind of help 0:12:52.396 --> 0:12:55.956 your creators avoid as you teach them about making games, 0:12:56.156 --> 0:13:00.076 but also about being a woman in the gaming industry. Yeah. Absolutely. 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:02.636 I think if you ask any woman in the industry, 0:13:02.636 --> 0:13:04.596 you'll probably get a similar answer, which is that it 0:13:04.596 --> 0:13:07.476 can be very isolating at times because there's so few 0:13:07.516 --> 0:13:10.116 of us. There's less than twenty percent of us in 0:13:10.156 --> 0:13:13.516 the industry, and it's very very visible when you go 0:13:13.556 --> 0:13:15.756 to events. When we're at home and we're doing our 0:13:15.836 --> 0:13:18.996 think it's mine, but when we go out and interact 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:23.676 with people and when we're at gaming events, it's painfully obvious. 0:13:23.676 --> 0:13:26.236 And that sort of helps me. Like what helps me 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:28.676 is draw parallels with my childhood where I grew up 0:13:29.076 --> 0:13:30.916 in the Middle East and I was very very aware 0:13:30.916 --> 0:13:32.476 of being a girl, and I was constantly told I 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:34.276 shouldn't do this, or shouldn't do that, or I couldn't 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:37.396 do this or that. And what has really helped me 0:13:37.476 --> 0:13:41.916 in the last almost a decade is the really strong 0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:45.236 community and sisterhood that we do have with the twenty 0:13:45.236 --> 0:13:47.676 percent of women that we do. And that's kind of 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:49.516 what we're building at Girls Make Games. When these kids 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:51.876 come in, they see each other year after year. We 0:13:51.876 --> 0:13:56.076 have very high retention, nearly seventy to eighty percent retention rate, 0:13:56.316 --> 0:13:58.596 So kids, once they sign up, they keep coming back. 0:13:58.876 --> 0:14:00.476 These are people that are going to be part of 0:14:00.516 --> 0:14:02.356 their journeys and they'll keep in touch and they'll go 0:14:02.396 --> 0:14:05.556 to college and eventually get jobs. And that's really the 0:14:05.596 --> 0:14:08.916 best thing you can help for because nobody can make 0:14:08.916 --> 0:14:11.996 it on their own. We all need a support system 0:14:12.036 --> 0:14:15.356 and if it doesn't exist, we gotta created for ourselves. 0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:19.636 So with the seventy to eighty percent retention rate, how 0:14:19.676 --> 0:14:22.756 are new people getting into this camp? It seems like 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:25.876 there's spots are going to seem a little competitive here. 0:14:25.876 --> 0:14:28.276 How do you get new people? So the nice thing 0:14:28.316 --> 0:14:31.316 about our camps is that every year, once we have 0:14:31.356 --> 0:14:33.316 our registrations and we can kind of show up to 0:14:33.356 --> 0:14:37.436 our partners, which is basically the whole games industry, and say, hey, 0:14:37.476 --> 0:14:39.316 here are the kids who want to make games. Can 0:14:39.396 --> 0:14:42.236 you support us? And they've always said yes, So it 0:14:42.396 --> 0:14:46.716 really it's we have room for everyone. And while we 0:14:46.796 --> 0:14:49.836 church tuition, we also offer one hundred percent scholarships, so 0:14:50.116 --> 0:14:52.196 cost has never been an issue. If your family can't 0:14:52.236 --> 0:14:56.076 afford it, we will offer up to hundred percent financially, Layla. 0:14:56.116 --> 0:14:58.716 There are billions of gamers, about two point eight billion, 0:14:59.076 --> 0:15:01.996 forty are women. I play a lot of games online, 0:15:02.076 --> 0:15:04.076 and I know it can be a rough space. I 0:15:04.076 --> 0:15:08.196 mean it is. There's racism, misogyny, it's all over the place. 0:15:08.516 --> 0:15:12.036 How do you solving that and how do you help 0:15:12.076 --> 0:15:15.116 other women? Stay hopeful that it will be solved eventually 0:15:15.956 --> 0:15:19.556 when young women kind of come to terms with hey, 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:21.756 this is probably going to be a rough career path 0:15:21.796 --> 0:15:23.436 for me, or hey, is this even going to be 0:15:23.676 --> 0:15:26.596 possible for me because people don't want me here or something. 0:15:27.236 --> 0:15:31.956 It's really a matter of time because when we end up, 0:15:32.356 --> 0:15:34.956 like I said, building that community and we have enough numbers, 0:15:34.996 --> 0:15:37.956 it's just going to go down with online communities. I mean, 0:15:37.996 --> 0:15:40.956 this problem exists outside of giving to online anonymity is 0:15:41.036 --> 0:15:44.716 just it's just what it is. It's ugly. But at 0:15:44.716 --> 0:15:49.236 the same time, if you can kind of create an 0:15:49.236 --> 0:15:53.956 alternate space, so I will never believe that the world 0:15:54.036 --> 0:15:56.516 is going to be a perfect place for anyone. I 0:15:56.556 --> 0:15:58.836 think as long as we have humans, we're going to 0:15:58.916 --> 0:16:01.636 have cruelty, We're going to have we're gonna have evil, 0:16:01.956 --> 0:16:06.036 let's just put it at that. But creating alternate spaces, 0:16:06.076 --> 0:16:08.316 and I think that's that's where we need to make 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:10.916 our investments, Like we need to be able to combat 0:16:10.996 --> 0:16:13.676 that with saying, hey, this sucks, but you have this 0:16:13.756 --> 0:16:16.996 other option, that's great. A lot of women play mobile games, 0:16:17.476 --> 0:16:20.556 not playing online or on consoles, you know, and they 0:16:20.596 --> 0:16:22.716 don't identify as game or as They'll just say, oh, yeah, 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:24.836 I play on my apps. You know, I don't really 0:16:24.876 --> 0:16:26.676 play games. I play apps. And I'm like, that's the 0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:33.276 same thing. Yeah, So how do we solve people being 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:37.636 mean to people? It's it's a really hard problem. Do 0:16:37.676 --> 0:16:41.996 you think that the solution is having an alternate safe space? 0:16:42.036 --> 0:16:45.316 Do you think that's a viable long term solution As 0:16:45.356 --> 0:16:48.996 a black person, I know, yeah, let's make the safe 0:16:48.996 --> 0:16:51.996 space somewhere, But it doesn't actually get to the root 0:16:51.996 --> 0:16:54.436 of the problem, which is that you know, there's there's 0:16:54.516 --> 0:16:58.036 inherently misogyny here, both in the creating of the games 0:16:58.076 --> 0:17:01.076 and then in the playing of the game. Yeah. Yeah, 0:17:01.116 --> 0:17:03.956 and so that's the thing that we have to think 0:17:03.996 --> 0:17:07.636 about when we implement those safe spaces. Right, as a 0:17:07.716 --> 0:17:09.556 thirty five year old woman, do why I need a 0:17:09.596 --> 0:17:11.556 safe space? Now? I feel like I don't because I 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:15.436 needed it ten fifteen years ago when I was much younger, 0:17:15.476 --> 0:17:18.236 and I really I was vulnerable and I needed that support, 0:17:18.276 --> 0:17:20.876 and I needed to feel confident in the choices that 0:17:20.916 --> 0:17:22.836 I was making. Now that I've made those choices and 0:17:22.876 --> 0:17:25.676 I've done well with them, I feel like I can 0:17:25.756 --> 0:17:29.676 walk into any room and make any any conversation happen. 0:17:30.076 --> 0:17:33.316 Like if you go back and study how all girls 0:17:33.356 --> 0:17:38.076 schools influence confidence in girls, why does that work at 0:17:38.076 --> 0:17:40.276 the middle school, high school age, and why does it 0:17:40.316 --> 0:17:42.636 not really matter if you have a whole workplace full 0:17:42.676 --> 0:17:44.596 of women. You know, it doesn't really work at that 0:17:44.636 --> 0:17:46.516 It so you really have to implement it when it's 0:17:46.556 --> 0:17:49.476 needed so early in your career, early in your teens, 0:17:49.516 --> 0:17:52.356 when you're not sure of who you are and if 0:17:52.396 --> 0:17:55.996 you should be making the choices or the decisions, or 0:17:55.996 --> 0:17:58.796 if you have if you have the right knowledge or 0:17:58.796 --> 0:18:02.916 even the potential to succeed somewhere, that's where you need 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:06.956 the support. That's It's funny because as you were talking, 0:18:06.996 --> 0:18:09.476 I was thinking two things. One, what you're to scribing 0:18:09.556 --> 0:18:13.916 is a greenhouse, yeah, yeah, exactly before you take the 0:18:13.956 --> 0:18:15.916 plants out. And then the second thing is I as 0:18:15.956 --> 0:18:17.356 soon as you said that I started to think about 0:18:17.396 --> 0:18:20.156 all of my friends who went to HBCUs and the 0:18:20.236 --> 0:18:22.796 ways in which they view themselves as black people in 0:18:22.836 --> 0:18:25.196 the world versus people like myself and others who went 0:18:25.196 --> 0:18:28.356 to PWIS who have a quite different experience. I think 0:18:28.356 --> 0:18:31.356 there's some truth in what you're saying. Can you tell 0:18:31.356 --> 0:18:34.196 me what does this look like when it's solved for you, 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:37.356 like in five to ten years looking ahead, how would 0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:40.916 you want this problem to look If I could talk 0:18:40.996 --> 0:18:46.156 to a young girl about gaming and ask her, you know, 0:18:46.196 --> 0:18:49.476 would you consider working in games? And her answer is 0:18:49.556 --> 0:18:52.516 not because I think video games are for boys, or 0:18:53.076 --> 0:18:55.476 because I don't know any of the girls who play games, 0:18:55.556 --> 0:18:58.316 or any of those things. If it's really because I'm 0:18:58.316 --> 0:19:00.316 not interested because I want to do X, I want 0:19:00.316 --> 0:19:02.236 to do this other thing that I'm more interested in. 0:19:02.636 --> 0:19:05.396 The self selection that happens because of the environment. I 0:19:05.436 --> 0:19:07.916 think that's that's the problem that we need to solve. 0:19:07.956 --> 0:19:10.316 Like we don't we don't have to worry about people 0:19:10.356 --> 0:19:12.676 not choosing gaming because they're not interested in it. We 0:19:12.716 --> 0:19:16.636 have to worry about people not choosing gaming because of fear, 0:19:16.796 --> 0:19:20.396 or because of negative stereotypes, or because they just have 0:19:20.516 --> 0:19:23.716 these misconceptions about it. So as long as we can 0:19:23.916 --> 0:19:27.076 tackle those things, as long as people have real choice, 0:19:27.596 --> 0:19:32.036 that they're choosing because they want X or y, and 0:19:32.076 --> 0:19:34.156 they're not leaning one way or the other because of 0:19:34.196 --> 0:19:37.676 their environment, I think that would be that would I 0:19:37.716 --> 0:19:40.316 would consider a success, And in that case, Girls Make 0:19:40.356 --> 0:19:43.516 Games would be obsolete. It would just be another summer camp, 0:19:43.836 --> 0:19:46.836 not really the summer camp that girls who like gaming 0:19:46.996 --> 0:19:50.916 go to. Are you optimistic that this will happen? Oh, 0:19:50.716 --> 0:19:54.316 one hundred thousand percent. I mean when we started Girls 0:19:54.356 --> 0:19:58.396 Make Games, we were at twenty two percent of developers 0:19:58.436 --> 0:20:01.076 identifying as female, and we are close to thirty now 0:20:01.436 --> 0:20:12.356 that's just in the last seven years. Yeah. Okay. If 0:20:12.356 --> 0:20:15.756 our listeners are interested in learning more about developing games 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:18.756 themselves or helping to support young women in gaming, what 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:20.476 can they do and where can they go to learn 0:20:20.476 --> 0:20:24.116 more to get involved? So for parents, I would say definitely, 0:20:24.156 --> 0:20:25.956 if you have a kid, if you have a girl 0:20:25.956 --> 0:20:28.716 who's interested in gaming, center to girls in games. But 0:20:28.796 --> 0:20:32.036 in general, for people who encounter young women, and I 0:20:32.116 --> 0:20:34.436 think I don't want to talk about gaming specifically, I 0:20:34.436 --> 0:20:36.596 think when you encounter young women who are interested in 0:20:36.596 --> 0:20:40.076 non traditional careers, or non traditional hobbies or any of that. 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:43.556 Instead of pointing out how different it is for them 0:20:43.596 --> 0:20:46.476 to be interested in it, engage them in it. And 0:20:46.516 --> 0:20:48.036 I think that was one of the best things my 0:20:48.116 --> 0:20:50.836 parents did for me, was even though I was out 0:20:50.836 --> 0:20:54.356 in the Middle East and outside, the whole outside world 0:20:54.476 --> 0:20:55.876 was telling me I'm a girl and I need to 0:20:55.876 --> 0:20:57.596 behave one way or the other. When I went home, 0:20:57.956 --> 0:21:01.196 my parents undid all of that damage by talking to 0:21:01.236 --> 0:21:04.356 me like a regular kid. I wasn't a frail little 0:21:04.436 --> 0:21:07.116 girl who needed all this protection in the world. I 0:21:07.116 --> 0:21:09.716 could have all the dreams that I wanted and all 0:21:09.796 --> 0:21:12.876 kinds of ambitions, and I could be prime minister or 0:21:12.916 --> 0:21:15.276 you know, scientists or any of that, all that stuff 0:21:15.316 --> 0:21:20.596 that wasn't possible outside. And then for if you're working 0:21:20.676 --> 0:21:23.316 in a corporate setting, the same goes for you know, 0:21:23.356 --> 0:21:27.556 your female colleagues. Like it's it's so much harder for 0:21:27.636 --> 0:21:32.756