1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Junior. I wasn't 2 00:00:25,996 --> 00:00:30,076 Speaker 1: thinking about starting a women's organization or a summer camp company. 3 00:00:30,116 --> 00:00:33,196 Speaker 1: I just wanted to make games. About two point eight 4 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:38,156 Speaker 1: billion people play video games worldwide, from Fortnite to Rocket League, 5 00:00:38,196 --> 00:00:42,956 Speaker 1: my personal favorite. Gaming is a popular form of entertainment, relaxation, 6 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 1: and a way to connect with friends and sometimes strangers. 7 00:00:47,196 --> 00:00:49,316 Speaker 1: When I started Girls Make Games, I really wasn't very 8 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 1: familiar with gaming, and I did grow up playing on 9 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:56,036 Speaker 1: my Atari and some arcade games like street Fighter or Teken, 10 00:00:56,876 --> 00:00:59,476 Speaker 1: but that was the extent of it. That's Layla Shaber. 11 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 1: She's the co founder and CEO of Girls Make Games, 12 00:01:03,196 --> 00:01:06,716 Speaker 1: an organization that aims to introduce game design to young girls. 13 00:01:07,236 --> 00:01:10,596 Speaker 1: Many people, including me my, spend a lot of time gaming, 14 00:01:10,676 --> 00:01:12,996 Speaker 1: but rarely take the time to think about who's making 15 00:01:13,036 --> 00:01:17,076 Speaker 1: these games and what goes into development. And that means 16 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:21,156 Speaker 1: you know, programming your game, designing your character, making art 17 00:01:21,196 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: for it, animating it, adding sound effects, sometimes even creating 18 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 1: and recording those sound effects from everyday objects that are 19 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:33,676 Speaker 1: around you, testing it, and finally implementing and sharing it 20 00:01:33,716 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 1: with people so they can play your game. She founded 21 00:01:35,836 --> 00:01:38,276 Speaker 1: a game studio with her husband, but when it came 22 00:01:38,276 --> 00:01:41,716 Speaker 1: to hiring, she realized just how underrepresented women are in 23 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 1: the gaming industry. She launched an annual summer camp to 24 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 1: solve that problem. And it was just very shocking to 25 00:01:47,356 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 1: me because I'd come from banking and research in all 26 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:52,836 Speaker 1: these other places where we had a lot more diversity, 27 00:01:52,916 --> 00:01:54,716 Speaker 1: you know, even though it was male dominated. It was 28 00:01:54,796 --> 00:01:58,316 Speaker 1: something like maybe fifty five forty five or sixty forty, 29 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:00,516 Speaker 1: but not like eighty twenty, which is what gaming is. 30 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 1: Layla's husband was a professional gamer himself, and he introduced 31 00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: her to the kinds of opportunities the world of gaming provides. 32 00:02:07,876 --> 00:02:10,276 Speaker 1: He didn't talk to me about how cool gaming is. 33 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 1: He talked to me about how powerful and how influential 34 00:02:12,636 --> 00:02:15,356 Speaker 1: gaming is. Because nine out of ten kids play games 35 00:02:15,356 --> 00:02:17,916 Speaker 1: in the US. That's a lot of kids. That's a 36 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:23,596 Speaker 1: lot of young people being shaped by one medium. Nearly 37 00:02:23,636 --> 00:02:27,356 Speaker 1: fifty percent of people who play video games identify as female, 38 00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:30,076 Speaker 1: but less than thirty percent of game developers or women. 39 00:02:30,756 --> 00:02:42,556 Speaker 1: This is a problem that we can solve. I was 40 00:02:42,596 --> 00:02:45,956 Speaker 1: working in research and kind of on my way to 41 00:02:46,356 --> 00:02:49,276 Speaker 1: getting a PhD eventually and becoming a professor because I 42 00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:52,476 Speaker 1: wanted to do something meaningful with my life. I wanted 43 00:02:52,516 --> 00:02:56,076 Speaker 1: to be a teacher, and for my husband. He's a 44 00:02:56,116 --> 00:02:58,836 Speaker 1: fairly intelligent guy and he was playing Halo competitively and 45 00:02:58,876 --> 00:03:00,716 Speaker 1: I just couldn't. When I first met him, it just 46 00:03:00,716 --> 00:03:02,516 Speaker 1: blew my mind. I was like, why would anyone waste 47 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:06,276 Speaker 1: their life away gaming and call themselves a professional gamer? 48 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:10,356 Speaker 1: And so he opened my eyes to the possibilities in gaming. 49 00:03:10,356 --> 00:03:13,196 Speaker 1: And I think the way he did it was really 50 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:15,756 Speaker 1: smart because he didn't talk to me about how cool 51 00:03:15,796 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 1: gaming is. He talked to me about how powerful and 52 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:20,876 Speaker 1: how influential gaming is. Because nine out of ten kids 53 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:23,476 Speaker 1: play games in the US. That's a lot of kids. 54 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:27,316 Speaker 1: That's a lot of young people being shaped by one medium. 55 00:03:27,476 --> 00:03:30,596 Speaker 1: So think about the power it has over shaping our 56 00:03:30,636 --> 00:03:33,556 Speaker 1: society and what are we doing with that power. Who 57 00:03:33,556 --> 00:03:36,516 Speaker 1: are the people behind the scenes making the games that 58 00:03:36,596 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 1: these kids play. He didn't talk to me about any 59 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:40,916 Speaker 1: of that. It was something that I discovered on my own. 60 00:03:40,956 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 1: He just showed me how influential it was and how 61 00:03:43,316 --> 00:03:46,636 Speaker 1: good it would be for us to combine our interests 62 00:03:46,636 --> 00:03:48,876 Speaker 1: of my interest to teach and his interest to make games. 63 00:03:49,196 --> 00:03:52,036 Speaker 1: And so we wanted to make educational games. So did 64 00:03:52,036 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: Girls Make Games start as an educational game? Like? How 65 00:03:56,636 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 1: did the camp emerge from your work with your gaming studio. 66 00:04:00,476 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 1: It wasn't until we started, like we launched our game 67 00:04:03,636 --> 00:04:06,876 Speaker 1: studio that I went out to gaming conferences and developers 68 00:04:06,916 --> 00:04:09,956 Speaker 1: conferences and I would be the only, oftentimes the only 69 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:12,156 Speaker 1: woman in the room, and definitely the only woman of 70 00:04:12,156 --> 00:04:16,156 Speaker 1: color in the room, woman of color, non gaming background, 71 00:04:16,236 --> 00:04:19,396 Speaker 1: so really complete outsider. And it was just very shocking 72 00:04:19,396 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 1: to me because I'd come from banking and research in 73 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:24,396 Speaker 1: all these other places where we had a lot more diversity, 74 00:04:24,476 --> 00:04:26,276 Speaker 1: you know, even though it was male dominated. It was 75 00:04:26,356 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 1: something like maybe fifty five forty five or sixty forty, 76 00:04:29,916 --> 00:04:32,076 Speaker 1: but not like eighty twenty, which is what gaming is. 77 00:04:32,916 --> 00:04:36,036 Speaker 1: So it just kind of shocked me. And I wasn't 78 00:04:36,076 --> 00:04:40,156 Speaker 1: thinking about starting a women's organization or a summer camp company. 79 00:04:40,156 --> 00:04:42,876 Speaker 1: I just wanted to make games. But I got a 80 00:04:42,996 --> 00:04:47,516 Speaker 1: sidetracked by the shock. So how did you go for 81 00:04:47,596 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 1: getting sidetracked into creating Girls Make Games? So while I 82 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:55,396 Speaker 1: was working on my first game, we were placed hasting 83 00:04:55,436 --> 00:04:57,716 Speaker 1: it all over the country, going to schools and you know, 84 00:04:57,836 --> 00:05:00,836 Speaker 1: little fairs and maker fair and things like that, and 85 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 1: we would have lots of kids come up having fun 86 00:05:03,756 --> 00:05:06,036 Speaker 1: with the game. But when we went to the developers conferences, 87 00:05:06,036 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 1: a lot of people would tell us girls are not 88 00:05:07,596 --> 00:05:10,116 Speaker 1: as interested in making games. When I tried to recruit 89 00:05:10,156 --> 00:05:14,396 Speaker 1: from my studio, we had about eight job openings and 90 00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:17,316 Speaker 1: they ended up being all filled by boys, because ninety 91 00:05:17,876 --> 00:05:20,796 Speaker 1: nine percent of the applications we received were from young 92 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 1: men who proclaimed that this was their dream job. And 93 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:25,396 Speaker 1: I was just so shocked as I was like, oh 94 00:05:25,436 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 1: my god, it's going to be just me and ten 95 00:05:28,036 --> 00:05:32,756 Speaker 1: boys making a game. And oftentimes, again in the room, 96 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:34,996 Speaker 1: I would be the only one with like different opinion 97 00:05:35,156 --> 00:05:39,476 Speaker 1: or perspective, and it's just very natural for me to 98 00:05:39,556 --> 00:05:42,596 Speaker 1: start thinking, if it's gonna be you know, these boys 99 00:05:42,636 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 1: making games, is the game gonna end up being more 100 00:05:44,676 --> 00:05:47,636 Speaker 1: interesting to boys? Or world girls play this too? And 101 00:05:47,716 --> 00:05:50,596 Speaker 1: how do I go meet young girls who might be 102 00:05:50,636 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 1: interested in playing or eventually becoming developers. So really the 103 00:05:54,476 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 1: first camp was a social experiment. I'm an economist by training, 104 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:01,396 Speaker 1: so it's really important for me to gather empirical data, 105 00:06:01,516 --> 00:06:05,676 Speaker 1: and so that first camp was sort of my research 106 00:06:05,756 --> 00:06:09,596 Speaker 1: ground for our game. But by the end of the camp. 107 00:06:09,836 --> 00:06:12,756 Speaker 1: It was such an emotional experience for so many of 108 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:14,836 Speaker 1: the kids, and I remember the last day of camp. 109 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:17,276 Speaker 1: We're all crying. The kids were crying. I was crying, 110 00:06:17,276 --> 00:06:19,716 Speaker 1: the parents are crying. We're all like. I was like, 111 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:21,956 Speaker 1: this is so weird. This is not what I expected. 112 00:06:22,276 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 1: You know, the kids that came in and they're talking 113 00:06:23,716 --> 00:06:25,276 Speaker 1: about this is the one place that I feel like 114 00:06:25,276 --> 00:06:28,036 Speaker 1: I could be myself. This is the only camp I've 115 00:06:28,076 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 1: been to where I'm not the only girl. I didn't 116 00:06:30,476 --> 00:06:32,596 Speaker 1: know there were other girls like me who loved playing 117 00:06:32,676 --> 00:06:36,076 Speaker 1: video games. So hearing those things over and over in 118 00:06:36,116 --> 00:06:39,476 Speaker 1: different forms just kind of solidified in my mind this 119 00:06:39,636 --> 00:06:42,916 Speaker 1: something that was needed and it just didn't exist. And 120 00:06:42,956 --> 00:06:44,796 Speaker 1: so I told my team I'm going to go on 121 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:47,836 Speaker 1: a one year hiatus. And that was seven years ago. 122 00:06:50,236 --> 00:06:52,636 Speaker 1: So I'm still on that hiatus because Girls and Games 123 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:55,196 Speaker 1: has just grown from that one camp to sort of 124 00:06:55,276 --> 00:06:59,996 Speaker 1: a global organization, and especially during COVID going virtual and 125 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,756 Speaker 1: reaching kids all over the world. It's just been a 126 00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:05,996 Speaker 1: very unexpected journey, but I know it's something that's needed 127 00:07:05,996 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 1: and that's why we continue to do it. Can you 128 00:07:08,756 --> 00:07:12,476 Speaker 1: explain what goes on at Girls Make games camps. Yeah, absolutely, so. 129 00:07:12,756 --> 00:07:15,276 Speaker 1: A lot of it is it's like a regular camp. 130 00:07:15,396 --> 00:07:19,036 Speaker 1: You show up, you make friends, you play games. You 131 00:07:19,396 --> 00:07:22,796 Speaker 1: have great counselors who also become your mentors and help 132 00:07:22,836 --> 00:07:25,716 Speaker 1: guide you through the process. But the really magical thing 133 00:07:25,756 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 1: that happens is the sense of community and belonging because, 134 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:30,276 Speaker 1: like I said, for a lot of the kids that 135 00:07:30,396 --> 00:07:32,796 Speaker 1: come to camp, this is the only place they've been 136 00:07:32,836 --> 00:07:36,116 Speaker 1: to where they were surrounded by people who look like them. 137 00:07:36,756 --> 00:07:38,956 Speaker 1: When they have speakers, you know, when we're speakers that 138 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 1: come into camp, these are women who work in the industry, 139 00:07:41,756 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: great role models, extremely successful leaders. They talk about their 140 00:07:46,316 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 1: journeys and how you know, they didn't know if they 141 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:51,196 Speaker 1: wanted to become game developers, and how they ended up 142 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 1: to where they are. These are stories they don't get 143 00:07:53,396 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 1: to hear every day, but for fifteen days they're completely 144 00:07:56,556 --> 00:08:00,716 Speaker 1: immersed in this magical place. In their words, there's a 145 00:08:00,756 --> 00:08:03,196 Speaker 1: really fun feature where at the end of camp, your 146 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 1: team gets to pitch your game to a panel of 147 00:08:05,516 --> 00:08:08,796 Speaker 1: industry judges, and the judges have included people like Phil 148 00:08:08,876 --> 00:08:11,876 Speaker 1: Spend who's the head of Xbox, and Sean Leiden, previous 149 00:08:11,916 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 1: head of PlayStations so we'll have a lot of really 150 00:08:13,876 --> 00:08:17,636 Speaker 1: senior leaders who are judges, and the winning game gets 151 00:08:17,676 --> 00:08:21,516 Speaker 1: kickstarted and then professionally developed and published. We published a 152 00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:25,596 Speaker 1: title on the PlayStation. We published a title this year 153 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two on the Nintendo Switch. So that's 154 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:30,516 Speaker 1: kind of how the game studio side of my business works, 155 00:08:30,516 --> 00:08:33,076 Speaker 1: where we're like, we're taking these girls or bringing their 156 00:08:33,116 --> 00:08:34,996 Speaker 1: vision to life and putting it out on the story 157 00:08:35,036 --> 00:08:38,796 Speaker 1: so people can play them. That's awesome. So can you 158 00:08:38,796 --> 00:08:41,316 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about your your studios because 159 00:08:41,396 --> 00:08:43,516 Speaker 1: I'm recognizing you have you have separate paths here, so 160 00:08:43,556 --> 00:08:47,236 Speaker 1: one of them's more altruistic and the other is actually 161 00:08:47,276 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 1: you creating games. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I really the 162 00:08:51,396 --> 00:08:53,236 Speaker 1: reason I got into the games industry was to make 163 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:54,796 Speaker 1: games because I wanted to be a part of it, 164 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:57,596 Speaker 1: and I think I still would like to continue making games. 165 00:08:57,596 --> 00:09:00,516 Speaker 1: It's just in the last years eight years, the only 166 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:03,276 Speaker 1: games that we've ended up making have been creatively led 167 00:09:03,316 --> 00:09:05,956 Speaker 1: and designed by young girls. Can you take us through 168 00:09:05,996 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 1: one of those games? Yeah, like, describe one for us absolutely. 169 00:09:10,116 --> 00:09:12,396 Speaker 1: One of my favorites, which is coming out next year 170 00:09:12,556 --> 00:09:15,156 Speaker 1: on the Switch, is called Shredded Secrets. It's actually an 171 00:09:15,156 --> 00:09:19,276 Speaker 1: anti bullying game. So the game's designed by four young 172 00:09:19,356 --> 00:09:22,756 Speaker 1: teens from Seattle, and each one of them ended up 173 00:09:22,796 --> 00:09:26,436 Speaker 1: writing a story arc. So you actually followed through four 174 00:09:26,516 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 1: characters that are in a middle school, three students and 175 00:09:28,996 --> 00:09:32,516 Speaker 1: a teacher. There's a bully and a victim. So there's 176 00:09:32,516 --> 00:09:35,276 Speaker 1: a bully and a girl getting bullied, but you get 177 00:09:35,316 --> 00:09:38,196 Speaker 1: to play through each one and kind of learn what 178 00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:39,996 Speaker 1: they're going through in their life. And I thought that 179 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:43,436 Speaker 1: was so amazing the way the kids approached it, because 180 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:46,356 Speaker 1: not only did this show how hard bullying is on 181 00:09:46,436 --> 00:09:49,676 Speaker 1: the victim, the ultra showed why the bully was acting 182 00:09:49,676 --> 00:09:52,756 Speaker 1: out and how his life was kind of, you know, 183 00:09:52,756 --> 00:09:54,836 Speaker 1: whatever he was going through. It wasn't all about hey, 184 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 1: he's evil and you're the good one and you know, 185 00:09:57,436 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 1: go fight evil. It was more about building empathy in 186 00:10:00,396 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: the player. So as you progress through the game, you're 187 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 1: getting to fill in all these different shoes and by 188 00:10:06,956 --> 00:10:08,396 Speaker 1: the end you kind of walk away with a sense 189 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 1: of WHOA, I can't believe thirteen year olds to make 190 00:10:10,356 --> 00:10:14,636 Speaker 1: this game. So that was amazing. It sounds amazing. So 191 00:10:14,796 --> 00:10:16,996 Speaker 1: your company is making all the games from the camp 192 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:20,876 Speaker 1: or the winner is the only one that's that's the 193 00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:33,356 Speaker 1: grand prize. That's awesome. Tell me a little bit more 194 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:36,716 Speaker 1: about the tech and the types of skills that girls 195 00:10:36,756 --> 00:10:40,916 Speaker 1: make games actually teaches. You learn everything that goes into 196 00:10:40,996 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 1: making a game from you know, taking your concept that's 197 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 1: sort of an abstract idea, an idea like I like cats, 198 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:52,196 Speaker 1: to becoming a full game, and that means you know, 199 00:10:52,236 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 1: programming your game, designing your character, so making art for it, 200 00:10:56,236 --> 00:11:01,076 Speaker 1: animating it, adding sound effects, sometimes even creating and recording 201 00:11:01,116 --> 00:11:03,876 Speaker 1: those sound effects from you know, everyday objects that are 202 00:11:03,916 --> 00:11:07,436 Speaker 1: around you, and then putting that into the game, testing it, 203 00:11:07,756 --> 00:11:10,756 Speaker 1: and finally implement and sharing it with people so they 204 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:12,836 Speaker 1: can play your game, so they go through the full 205 00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 1: indie developer experience, which is I have a dream too, 206 00:11:16,916 --> 00:11:21,276 Speaker 1: I have a game. I love it now. Some of 207 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:23,796 Speaker 1: my favorite games are Fortnite, Rocket League, and some of 208 00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:27,276 Speaker 1: these games are very violent. Yeah, and how much are 209 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:31,316 Speaker 1: you guys focused on making games that don't include violence? 210 00:11:31,316 --> 00:11:34,636 Speaker 1: Like what role does violence in video games play in 211 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:38,956 Speaker 1: girls make games? We're very lucky. We've never really had 212 00:11:39,036 --> 00:11:41,596 Speaker 1: to talk to anyone and say your game is too violent. 213 00:11:42,036 --> 00:11:45,676 Speaker 1: At most, we've had maybe cartoonish violence We definitely have shooters. 214 00:11:45,676 --> 00:11:49,516 Speaker 1: We've had fps's first person shooters, But the context matters. 215 00:11:49,556 --> 00:11:51,676 Speaker 1: If I'm shooting fruit at you or if I'm shooting 216 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:54,036 Speaker 1: paint at you, it feels very different from you know, 217 00:11:54,116 --> 00:11:56,436 Speaker 1: if there's blood all over the screen. So the mechanic 218 00:11:56,596 --> 00:12:00,956 Speaker 1: is okay. The context matters. If TV and movies can 219 00:12:00,996 --> 00:12:03,436 Speaker 1: be violent, so can video games. If TV and movies 220 00:12:03,516 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 1: can move you and change you and educate you, so 221 00:12:05,996 --> 00:12:07,636 Speaker 1: con video games. So you have to be able to 222 00:12:07,716 --> 00:12:11,436 Speaker 1: draw those parallels. And we need smart people. We need 223 00:12:12,476 --> 00:12:16,116 Speaker 1: problem solvers, we need writers, designers, we need all kinds 224 00:12:16,116 --> 00:12:18,916 Speaker 1: of people to come join us and help build the 225 00:12:18,956 --> 00:12:21,836 Speaker 1: feature of the industry because we're going places. I mean, 226 00:12:21,876 --> 00:12:23,996 Speaker 1: gaming is growing so fast. It's already one of the 227 00:12:24,036 --> 00:12:27,756 Speaker 1: fastest industries. When I tell people that gaming makes more 228 00:12:27,756 --> 00:12:31,836 Speaker 1: money than music and Hollywood combined, their shock. Yes, right, 229 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 1: So video games are pervasive, They're everywhere, and they're going 230 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:38,916 Speaker 1: to continue to be everywhere and grow. So it would 231 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:41,116 Speaker 1: be awesome if we had more women and diverse people 232 00:12:41,116 --> 00:12:44,236 Speaker 1: come be a part of the movement. Are there any 233 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:47,716 Speaker 1: pitfalls or obstacles that you faced being a woman in 234 00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:51,876 Speaker 1: the gaming industry that you're able to kind of help 235 00:12:52,396 --> 00:12:55,956 Speaker 1: your creators avoid as you teach them about making games, 236 00:12:56,156 --> 00:13:00,076 Speaker 1: but also about being a woman in the gaming industry. Yeah. Absolutely. 237 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:02,636 Speaker 1: I think if you ask any woman in the industry, 238 00:13:02,636 --> 00:13:04,596 Speaker 1: you'll probably get a similar answer, which is that it 239 00:13:04,596 --> 00:13:07,476 Speaker 1: can be very isolating at times because there's so few 240 00:13:07,516 --> 00:13:10,116 Speaker 1: of us. There's less than twenty percent of us in 241 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:13,516 Speaker 1: the industry, and it's very very visible when you go 242 00:13:13,556 --> 00:13:15,756 Speaker 1: to events. When we're at home and we're doing our 243 00:13:15,836 --> 00:13:18,996 Speaker 1: think it's mine, but when we go out and interact 244 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:23,676 Speaker 1: with people and when we're at gaming events, it's painfully obvious. 245 00:13:23,676 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 1: And that sort of helps me. Like what helps me 246 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:28,676 Speaker 1: is draw parallels with my childhood where I grew up 247 00:13:29,076 --> 00:13:30,916 Speaker 1: in the Middle East and I was very very aware 248 00:13:30,916 --> 00:13:32,476 Speaker 1: of being a girl, and I was constantly told I 249 00:13:32,516 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 1: shouldn't do this, or shouldn't do that, or I couldn't 250 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 1: do this or that. And what has really helped me 251 00:13:37,476 --> 00:13:41,916 Speaker 1: in the last almost a decade is the really strong 252 00:13:42,156 --> 00:13:45,236 Speaker 1: community and sisterhood that we do have with the twenty 253 00:13:45,236 --> 00:13:47,676 Speaker 1: percent of women that we do. And that's kind of 254 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:49,516 Speaker 1: what we're building at Girls Make Games. When these kids 255 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:51,876 Speaker 1: come in, they see each other year after year. We 256 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:56,076 Speaker 1: have very high retention, nearly seventy to eighty percent retention rate, 257 00:13:56,316 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 1: So kids, once they sign up, they keep coming back. 258 00:13:58,876 --> 00:14:00,476 Speaker 1: These are people that are going to be part of 259 00:14:00,516 --> 00:14:02,356 Speaker 1: their journeys and they'll keep in touch and they'll go 260 00:14:02,396 --> 00:14:05,556 Speaker 1: to college and eventually get jobs. And that's really the 261 00:14:05,596 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 1: best thing you can help for because nobody can make 262 00:14:08,916 --> 00:14:11,996 Speaker 1: it on their own. We all need a support system 263 00:14:12,036 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: and if it doesn't exist, we gotta created for ourselves. 264 00:14:15,836 --> 00:14:19,636 Speaker 1: So with the seventy to eighty percent retention rate, how 265 00:14:19,676 --> 00:14:22,756 Speaker 1: are new people getting into this camp? It seems like 266 00:14:22,796 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 1: there's spots are going to seem a little competitive here. 267 00:14:25,876 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: How do you get new people? So the nice thing 268 00:14:28,316 --> 00:14:31,316 Speaker 1: about our camps is that every year, once we have 269 00:14:31,356 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 1: our registrations and we can kind of show up to 270 00:14:33,356 --> 00:14:37,436 Speaker 1: our partners, which is basically the whole games industry, and say, hey, 271 00:14:37,476 --> 00:14:39,316 Speaker 1: here are the kids who want to make games. Can 272 00:14:39,396 --> 00:14:42,236 Speaker 1: you support us? And they've always said yes, So it 273 00:14:42,396 --> 00:14:46,716 Speaker 1: really it's we have room for everyone. And while we 274 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 1: church tuition, we also offer one hundred percent scholarships, so 275 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:52,196 Speaker 1: cost has never been an issue. If your family can't 276 00:14:52,236 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 1: afford it, we will offer up to hundred percent financially, Layla. 277 00:14:56,116 --> 00:14:58,716 Speaker 1: There are billions of gamers, about two point eight billion, 278 00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:01,996 Speaker 1: forty are women. I play a lot of games online, 279 00:15:02,076 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 1: and I know it can be a rough space. I 280 00:15:04,076 --> 00:15:08,196 Speaker 1: mean it is. There's racism, misogyny, it's all over the place. 281 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:12,036 Speaker 1: How do you solving that and how do you help 282 00:15:12,076 --> 00:15:15,116 Speaker 1: other women? Stay hopeful that it will be solved eventually 283 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:19,556 Speaker 1: when young women kind of come to terms with hey, 284 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:21,756 Speaker 1: this is probably going to be a rough career path 285 00:15:21,796 --> 00:15:23,436 Speaker 1: for me, or hey, is this even going to be 286 00:15:23,676 --> 00:15:26,596 Speaker 1: possible for me because people don't want me here or something. 287 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:31,956 Speaker 1: It's really a matter of time because when we end up, 288 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:34,956 Speaker 1: like I said, building that community and we have enough numbers, 289 00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:37,956 Speaker 1: it's just going to go down with online communities. I mean, 290 00:15:37,996 --> 00:15:40,956 Speaker 1: this problem exists outside of giving to online anonymity is 291 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 1: just it's just what it is. It's ugly. But at 292 00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:49,236 Speaker 1: the same time, if you can kind of create an 293 00:15:49,236 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 1: alternate space, so I will never believe that the world 294 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:56,516 Speaker 1: is going to be a perfect place for anyone. I 295 00:15:56,556 --> 00:15:58,836 Speaker 1: think as long as we have humans, we're going to 296 00:15:58,916 --> 00:16:01,636 Speaker 1: have cruelty, We're going to have we're gonna have evil, 297 00:16:01,956 --> 00:16:06,036 Speaker 1: let's just put it at that. But creating alternate spaces, 298 00:16:06,076 --> 00:16:08,316 Speaker 1: and I think that's that's where we need to make 299 00:16:08,316 --> 00:16:10,916 Speaker 1: our investments, Like we need to be able to combat 300 00:16:10,996 --> 00:16:13,676 Speaker 1: that with saying, hey, this sucks, but you have this 301 00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:16,996 Speaker 1: other option, that's great. A lot of women play mobile games, 302 00:16:17,476 --> 00:16:20,556 Speaker 1: not playing online or on consoles, you know, and they 303 00:16:20,596 --> 00:16:22,716 Speaker 1: don't identify as game or as They'll just say, oh, yeah, 304 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: I play on my apps. You know, I don't really 305 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:26,676 Speaker 1: play games. I play apps. And I'm like, that's the 306 00:16:26,716 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 1: same thing. Yeah, So how do we solve people being 307 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: mean to people? It's it's a really hard problem. Do 308 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:41,996 Speaker 1: you think that the solution is having an alternate safe space? 309 00:16:42,036 --> 00:16:45,316 Speaker 1: Do you think that's a viable long term solution As 310 00:16:45,356 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 1: a black person, I know, yeah, let's make the safe 311 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:51,996 Speaker 1: space somewhere, But it doesn't actually get to the root 312 00:16:51,996 --> 00:16:54,436 Speaker 1: of the problem, which is that you know, there's there's 313 00:16:54,516 --> 00:16:58,036 Speaker 1: inherently misogyny here, both in the creating of the games 314 00:16:58,076 --> 00:17:01,076 Speaker 1: and then in the playing of the game. Yeah. Yeah, 315 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:03,956 Speaker 1: and so that's the thing that we have to think 316 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 1: about when we implement those safe spaces. Right, as a 317 00:17:07,716 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 1: thirty five year old woman, do why I need a 318 00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:11,556 Speaker 1: safe space? Now? I feel like I don't because I 319 00:17:11,956 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 1: needed it ten fifteen years ago when I was much younger, 320 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:18,236 Speaker 1: and I really I was vulnerable and I needed that support, 321 00:17:18,276 --> 00:17:20,876 Speaker 1: and I needed to feel confident in the choices that 322 00:17:20,916 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 1: I was making. Now that I've made those choices and 323 00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 1: I've done well with them, I feel like I can 324 00:17:25,756 --> 00:17:29,676 Speaker 1: walk into any room and make any any conversation happen. 325 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: Like if you go back and study how all girls 326 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:38,076 Speaker 1: schools influence confidence in girls, why does that work at 327 00:17:38,076 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 1: the middle school, high school age, and why does it 328 00:17:40,316 --> 00:17:42,636 Speaker 1: not really matter if you have a whole workplace full 329 00:17:42,676 --> 00:17:44,596 Speaker 1: of women. You know, it doesn't really work at that 330 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:46,516 Speaker 1: It so you really have to implement it when it's 331 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:49,476 Speaker 1: needed so early in your career, early in your teens, 332 00:17:49,516 --> 00:17:52,356 Speaker 1: when you're not sure of who you are and if 333 00:17:52,396 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: you should be making the choices or the decisions, or 334 00:17:55,996 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: if you have if you have the right knowledge or 335 00:17:58,796 --> 00:18:02,916 Speaker 1: even the potential to succeed somewhere, that's where you need 336 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:06,956 Speaker 1: the support. That's It's funny because as you were talking, 337 00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:09,476 Speaker 1: I was thinking two things. One, what you're to scribing 338 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:13,916 Speaker 1: is a greenhouse, yeah, yeah, exactly before you take the 339 00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:15,916 Speaker 1: plants out. And then the second thing is I as 340 00:18:15,956 --> 00:18:17,356 Speaker 1: soon as you said that I started to think about 341 00:18:17,396 --> 00:18:20,156 Speaker 1: all of my friends who went to HBCUs and the 342 00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:22,796 Speaker 1: ways in which they view themselves as black people in 343 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:25,196 Speaker 1: the world versus people like myself and others who went 344 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:28,356 Speaker 1: to PWIS who have a quite different experience. I think 345 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:31,356 Speaker 1: there's some truth in what you're saying. Can you tell 346 00:18:31,356 --> 00:18:34,196 Speaker 1: me what does this look like when it's solved for you, 347 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:37,356 Speaker 1: like in five to ten years looking ahead, how would 348 00:18:37,396 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 1: you want this problem to look If I could talk 349 00:18:40,996 --> 00:18:46,156 Speaker 1: to a young girl about gaming and ask her, you know, 350 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:49,476 Speaker 1: would you consider working in games? And her answer is 351 00:18:49,556 --> 00:18:52,516 Speaker 1: not because I think video games are for boys, or 352 00:18:53,076 --> 00:18:55,476 Speaker 1: because I don't know any of the girls who play games, 353 00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:58,316 Speaker 1: or any of those things. If it's really because I'm 354 00:18:58,316 --> 00:19:00,316 Speaker 1: not interested because I want to do X, I want 355 00:19:00,316 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 1: to do this other thing that I'm more interested in. 356 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:05,396 Speaker 1: The self selection that happens because of the environment. I 357 00:19:05,436 --> 00:19:07,916 Speaker 1: think that's that's the problem that we need to solve. 358 00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:10,316 Speaker 1: Like we don't we don't have to worry about people 359 00:19:10,356 --> 00:19:12,676 Speaker 1: not choosing gaming because they're not interested in it. We 360 00:19:12,716 --> 00:19:16,636 Speaker 1: have to worry about people not choosing gaming because of fear, 361 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:20,396 Speaker 1: or because of negative stereotypes, or because they just have 362 00:19:20,516 --> 00:19:23,716 Speaker 1: these misconceptions about it. So as long as we can 363 00:19:23,916 --> 00:19:27,076 Speaker 1: tackle those things, as long as people have real choice, 364 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:32,036 Speaker 1: that they're choosing because they want X or y, and 365 00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:34,156 Speaker 1: they're not leaning one way or the other because of 366 00:19:34,196 --> 00:19:37,676 Speaker 1: their environment, I think that would be that would I 367 00:19:37,716 --> 00:19:40,316 Speaker 1: would consider a success, And in that case, Girls Make 368 00:19:40,356 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 1: Games would be obsolete. It would just be another summer camp, 369 00:19:43,836 --> 00:19:46,836 Speaker 1: not really the summer camp that girls who like gaming 370 00:19:46,996 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 1: go to. Are you optimistic that this will happen? Oh, 371 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:54,316 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand percent. I mean when we started Girls 372 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:58,396 Speaker 1: Make Games, we were at twenty two percent of developers 373 00:19:58,436 --> 00:20:01,076 Speaker 1: identifying as female, and we are close to thirty now 374 00:20:01,436 --> 00:20:12,356 Speaker 1: that's just in the last seven years. Yeah. Okay. If 375 00:20:12,356 --> 00:20:15,756 Speaker 1: our listeners are interested in learning more about developing games 376 00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 1: themselves or helping to support young women in gaming, what 377 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:20,476 Speaker 1: can they do and where can they go to learn 378 00:20:20,476 --> 00:20:24,116 Speaker 1: more to get involved? So for parents, I would say definitely, 379 00:20:24,156 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 1: if you have a kid, if you have a girl 380 00:20:25,956 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 1: who's interested in gaming, center to girls in games. But 381 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 1: in general, for people who encounter young women, and I 382 00:20:32,116 --> 00:20:34,436 Speaker 1: think I don't want to talk about gaming specifically, I 383 00:20:34,436 --> 00:20:36,596 Speaker 1: think when you encounter young women who are interested in 384 00:20:36,596 --> 00:20:40,076 Speaker 1: non traditional careers, or non traditional hobbies or any of that. 385 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 1: Instead of pointing out how different it is for them 386 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,476 Speaker 1: to be interested in it, engage them in it. And 387 00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:48,036 Speaker 1: I think that was one of the best things my 388 00:20:48,116 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 1: parents did for me, was even though I was out 389 00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:54,356 Speaker 1: in the Middle East and outside, the whole outside world 390 00:20:54,476 --> 00:20:55,876 Speaker 1: was telling me I'm a girl and I need to 391 00:20:55,876 --> 00:20:57,596 Speaker 1: behave one way or the other. When I went home, 392 00:20:57,956 --> 00:21:01,196 Speaker 1: my parents undid all of that damage by talking to 393 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:04,356 Speaker 1: me like a regular kid. I wasn't a frail little 394 00:21:04,436 --> 00:21:07,116 Speaker 1: girl who needed all this protection in the world. I 395 00:21:07,116 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 1: could have all the dreams that I wanted and all 396 00:21:09,796 --> 00:21:12,876 Speaker 1: kinds of ambitions, and I could be prime minister or 397 00:21:12,916 --> 00:21:15,276 Speaker 1: you know, scientists or any of that, all that stuff 398 00:21:15,316 --> 00:21:20,596 Speaker 1: that wasn't possible outside. And then for if you're working 399 00:21:20,676 --> 00:21:23,316 Speaker 1: in a corporate setting, the same goes for you know, 400 00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:27,556 Speaker 1: your female colleagues. Like it's it's so much harder for 401 00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:32,756 Speaker 1: us to just try to pretend that we're all the 402 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:36,636 Speaker 1: same and we're all in the same boat. But life 403 00:21:36,716 --> 00:21:39,876 Speaker 1: is just we've we've had to overcome so many more obstacles. 404 00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:42,636 Speaker 1: I mean, it's seeing a successful woman in tech or 405 00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 1: a successful woman in gaming is really you are seeing 406 00:21:45,476 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 1: you're kind of observing a unicorn and so kind of 407 00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:50,876 Speaker 1: making that a norm, you know, we don't. We don't 408 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:52,956 Speaker 1: need it to be an exception. I've one of my 409 00:21:53,116 --> 00:21:56,956 Speaker 1: least favorite stereotypes on TV is like that trope of 410 00:21:56,956 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 1: that one woman in the computer science or in the 411 00:21:59,476 --> 00:22:03,116 Speaker 1: tech classroom who is also a genius. I don't think 412 00:22:03,196 --> 00:22:05,396 Speaker 1: we need that double burden to be like the minority 413 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:09,156 Speaker 1: who's also a genius. I think, you know, like and 414 00:22:09,316 --> 00:22:12,076 Speaker 1: get to be an average minority because being averages and 415 00:22:12,436 --> 00:22:14,756 Speaker 1: you know that's hourage, that's what normal people are. It's 416 00:22:14,756 --> 00:22:20,036 Speaker 1: a privilege, right, Yeah, So that's just such a burden 417 00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:22,116 Speaker 1: to to be like, oh, I'm a girl in gaming. 418 00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 1: That means I have to be really really good otherwise 419 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 1: I represent all girls and if I suck, all girls suck. Yeah. Yeah, 420 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:31,076 Speaker 1: I think the progress thoroughly comes down to, like, I'm 421 00:22:31,076 --> 00:22:39,276 Speaker 1: just an average developer. I'm just any one of them exactly. 422 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:41,756 Speaker 1: So where can we find the games that you guys 423 00:22:41,796 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 1: have developed? I know I want to check them out, 424 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:45,916 Speaker 1: and I'm sure our listeners do too. So we've actually 425 00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:49,476 Speaker 1: developed six games and they are They can be found 426 00:22:49,516 --> 00:22:52,916 Speaker 1: on the Girls Man Games website. There's a tab called games. 427 00:22:53,476 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 1: We started publishing in twenty fourteen. Blub Blub Quest of 428 00:22:57,076 --> 00:23:00,676 Speaker 1: the Blob is out on Steam and Xbox. The Whole 429 00:23:00,716 --> 00:23:04,236 Speaker 1: Story is out on Steam. Intrafectorium is out on Steam 430 00:23:04,276 --> 00:23:08,556 Speaker 1: and PlayStation. Find Me just came out on PlayStation last year. 431 00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:12,356 Speaker 1: It's also on Steam, and Shredded Secrets just came out 432 00:23:12,396 --> 00:23:14,916 Speaker 1: this year in twenty twenty two on the Nintendo Switch. 433 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:19,716 Speaker 1: It's our first Switch title and we're so excited. Layla, 434 00:23:19,836 --> 00:23:22,476 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us today. Oh absolutely, 435 00:23:22,516 --> 00:23:26,516 Speaker 1: it's my pleasure. Laylashim Beer is the co founder and 436 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 1: CEO of Girls Make Games. Layla attended MIT and pursued 437 00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:33,116 Speaker 1: finance at Black Rock, followed by economic research at the 438 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:36,996 Speaker 1: Brookings Institution before moving into the world video games. In 439 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, game Industry dot biz named Layla a Games 440 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:44,796 Speaker 1: Industry Person of the Year. Layla has a personal goal 441 00:23:44,836 --> 00:23:47,356 Speaker 1: to teach one million girls how to make games through 442 00:23:47,396 --> 00:23:49,716 Speaker 1: her work. If you want to learn more about game 443 00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:52,556 Speaker 1: development or any of the games that Layla's studios helped 444 00:23:52,596 --> 00:23:55,156 Speaker 1: to produce, check out the links in our show notes. 445 00:23:56,316 --> 00:24:00,676 Speaker 1: Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by David Jah 446 00:24:00,756 --> 00:24:05,156 Speaker 1: Booking by Lisa Dunn, Editorial support from Keyshell Williams. Our 447 00:24:05,196 --> 00:24:08,756 Speaker 1: managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and our executive producer is 448 00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:17,876 Speaker 1: Mia Bell. I'm Ronald Young Junior. Thanks for listening before 449 00:24:17,916 --> 00:24:19,636 Speaker 1: we go. We know you're used to hearing the show 450 00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:21,316 Speaker 1: every week, but just want to let you know the 451 00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:24,156 Speaker 1: next episode of Solvable will be released at the beginning 452 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 1: of next month. It will be well worth the way, 453 00:24:26,836 --> 00:24:29,596 Speaker 1: so stay tuned and once again, thanks for listening.