Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm excited today to share a conversation with my
Speaker 1: friend Tia Cabral, also known as Spelling. I've known Spelling
Speaker 1: since before she started making music a bit over a
Speaker 1: decade ago, and I'll never forget when I first heard
Speaker 1: some of the songs that became her sophomore album, The
Speaker 1: Turning Wheel. It blew me away. For this friend, who
Speaker 1: I've known for so long, to just be casually demoing
Speaker 1: these beautiful songs with such a gorgeous voice, that was astonished.
Speaker 1: Mind you, that album got a rare perfect ten rating
Speaker 1: from Anthony Fantano. Her latest album, Portrait of My Heart,
Speaker 1: sees Spelling taking yet another leap, pushing her avant garde
Speaker 1: pop and even rock sensibilities to another level, adding new
Speaker 1: dimensions to the mysticism and drama imbued in her music. Today,
Speaker 1: Spelling opens up about her journey from teaching to touring,
Speaker 1: what it means to build a sonic universe where every
Speaker 1: detail is intentional, the early days of her musical journey,
Speaker 1: when she was just getting started. This is broken record,
Speaker 1: real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Spelling. We
Speaker 1: should talk about the new album because there's a lot
Speaker 1: more guitar, and then as the album progresses there gets
Speaker 1: to be even more guitar. It's really cool, but it was,
Speaker 1: but it was shocking. But maybe before we get to
Speaker 1: talking about the guitar, just what was the genesis of
Speaker 1: your new album?
Speaker 2: The genesis, I mean, it's the same kind of approach
Speaker 2: I always take, which is I'm just channeling my mood.
Speaker 2: And I felt as though what I noticed after putting
Speaker 2: out The Turning Wheel and touring a little bit and
Speaker 2: just kind of that felt like this turning point in
Speaker 2: my life where this is what I'm doing with my
Speaker 2: life kind of a thing, whereas before it was I
Speaker 2: was just you're meaning a lot, And I didn't imagine
Speaker 2: my day to day being oriented around making music or
Speaker 2: performing music really until post Turning Wheel. And there's a
Speaker 2: lot of variables to that. I think I'm in my thirties,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't really actually activate this craft until I
Speaker 2: was in my like mid twenties, you know, So there
Speaker 2: was this I felt like I'd already gone through this
Speaker 2: evolution in my life where I felt like I know
Speaker 2: who I am, you know, I have this sense of
Speaker 2: self and confidence that's not rooted in being a musician,
Speaker 2: so you know, going through that, putting out the album,
Speaker 2: getting like an amazing amount of support for it and
Speaker 2: growing my audience and all that, and I just was like, whoa,
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm having this second sort of adolescence
Speaker 2: in my life where I'm like once again being shaken up,
Speaker 2: like having an identity crisis almost like who am I now?
Speaker 2: And how does this change my life path? And all
Speaker 2: of those things and just insecurities coming up I just
Speaker 2: never thought I'd have to encounter again, Like I already
Speaker 2: went through this as a teenager, just being like what
Speaker 2: does it mean to like, you know, my image, my
Speaker 2: relationships and my romantic connections, my friendships, all of that
Speaker 2: started to kind of get re oriented around now pursuing
Speaker 2: this thing like full full force and full heartedly, and
Speaker 2: so Portrait of my Heart. A lot of those songs
Speaker 2: are just like, yeah, stepping back into that sort of
Speaker 2: adolescent space of like oh man, just like a restlessness,
Speaker 2: sort of angst, a lot of grasping and questioning at
Speaker 2: those sort of things that I just already thought I
Speaker 2: had figured out.
Speaker 1: Would you say it's the songs to you are more
Speaker 1: questioning and reaching than your last record.
Speaker 2: Just in a different scale. And I think prior to this,
Speaker 2: I had a lot of comfort in my home space,
Speaker 2: and I you know, had my like spiritual practices and routines,
Speaker 2: like I meditate, I spend time in nature, and like
Speaker 2: I was channeling from there, like my interests in like
Speaker 2: you know, occult arts and magic and spirituality and cosmology
Speaker 2: like all of that stuff. Like I spent a lot
Speaker 2: of time reading and researching and just writing, and so
Speaker 2: I would draw from that, like and I think things
Speaker 2: were you know, there's songs on Turning Wheel that are
Speaker 2: very much about like love and romance and connection, but
Speaker 2: kind of more pointed in this like cosmic scale loves
Speaker 2: in like universal love or you know, like love is
Speaker 2: in cosmic love and that kind of analogy. But with
Speaker 2: Portrait of my Heart, it's just it's more one to one.
Speaker 2: It's more just like tea and real life situations and
Speaker 2: like personal affairs and my own matters of a heart.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a big shift. And now now that
Speaker 2: I'm talking about it, it's like, oh, yeah, this is
Speaker 2: about to come out, and this is like my life,
Speaker 2: and it's it's a little weird. It's it's like way
Speaker 2: more vulnerable.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's interesting because I would have thought the opposite,
Speaker 1: not that I mean both seem very sincere, but I
Speaker 1: would have thought that that Turning Wheel was more directly
Speaker 1: to do with your everyday life and sort of more
Speaker 1: maybe more actually a portrait of your heart than this one.
Speaker 1: But I guess that's why, and I guess that's why
Speaker 1: you title this one.
Speaker 2: It's all InTru laced too, you know, like it's just
Speaker 2: kind of what I was, what I was describing as
Speaker 2: being on a different scale. And but yeah, they're both.
Speaker 2: I think the through line is intimacy. I think that's
Speaker 2: a big theme on all the things that I make,
Speaker 2: is like intimacy with the self and with relationship or
Speaker 2: connection to spirit and the those kinds of things are
Speaker 2: carrying through since Pantheon of Me and to Portrait of
Speaker 2: my Heart as well.
Speaker 1: Since you talked about like having different practices, whether it's
Speaker 1: meditation or just kind of communing with nature. Is music
Speaker 1: another version of that for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, it kind of feels like for me it
Speaker 2: was the big piece of like, Oh, I found where
Speaker 2: I can really direct my purpose and feel like I
Speaker 2: can direct my like particular gifts and talents in the
Speaker 2: right way, and so music is that for me. And
Speaker 2: it's kind of like my big take on spirituality in
Speaker 2: general is just what can you do to you know,
Speaker 2: elevate your like best abilities and you know, make an impact.
Speaker 2: I struggle with connecting to people, even though I want to,
Speaker 2: and I yeah, and I think that music kind of
Speaker 2: like always helps me to bridge that. Like it's the
Speaker 2: thing that connects me to all, like all let my
Speaker 2: relationships and friendships, even my family.
Speaker 1: Like how does that play out in your life? How
Speaker 1: does that look in your life?
Speaker 2: I mean it's really like it's really simple just sending
Speaker 2: songs back and forth with friends. It feels like I
Speaker 2: can know you so well just by that, you know.
Speaker 2: And my dad and I our relationship is really been
Speaker 2: kind of glued together through music, and you know, he'll
Speaker 2: send me YouTube videos back and forth throughout the week.
Speaker 2: That's kind of like how we mostly communicate is like
Speaker 2: through songs. And I don't know, I think like knowing
Speaker 2: what someone loves or what speaks to them is so
Speaker 2: special and it like just access to something you couldn't
Speaker 2: really describe really with words ever. And that's how I
Speaker 2: feel about just like speaking in general, too, Like I
Speaker 2: have such a hard time like saying what I mean
Speaker 2: and how I feel, but I can do it with music.
Speaker 1: And when I first met you, you were a writer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's how in my mind. Yeah, So when it comes
Speaker 1: to writing, though, you're able to organize and your thoughts
Speaker 1: and sort of clearly get out what you're trying to say.
Speaker 2: Better than like conversation for sure, But even then it's
Speaker 2: not as immediate like music just is like something that's
Speaker 2: just so immediate and it doesn't need like a translation
Speaker 2: for me, like I just feel like I can just
Speaker 2: act as a conduit. And yeah, I started off with writing.
Speaker 2: You know, you saw me doing poetry workshops and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, and that was what really launched me into
Speaker 2: making music. From there, I was like, oh, poetry is
Speaker 2: this other like vein of music where you can say
Speaker 2: a lot with just a few things and have all
Speaker 2: these multiple meanings and just a couple of words. And
Speaker 2: so I was playing around with that and then got
Speaker 2: a loot pedal and good, all right, I think I
Speaker 2: cringed thinking about that chapter of my life. We can
Speaker 2: we don't need people digging into that.
Speaker 1: But that was the first time I ever met you.
Speaker 1: Do you remember, do you remember meeting.
Speaker 2: Yeah at a workshop.
Speaker 1: Not at a workshop. We were on like telegraph and
Speaker 1: and you were, I think, just leaving a workshop. And
Speaker 1: I had walked from like downtown, but on foot on
Speaker 1: I was hooking it just like I was like, okay
Speaker 1: a bus. I was like waiting for a bus and
Speaker 1: was taking forever, so I wanted to start walking and
Speaker 1: a bus will eventually. I don't know how. I walked forever,
Speaker 1: and then finally a bus came and you came up.
Speaker 1: A couple of different other.
Speaker 2: People, Yeah, a couple of other poets, a couple of
Speaker 2: the poets telegraph.
Speaker 1: Casually a couple of the poets materialized and we rode
Speaker 1: the bus together. And that was Remember that was for
Speaker 1: something to me, like, yeah, we just came from this
Speaker 1: you like like we were still over there this poetry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man, what a time. Yeah, it really felt
Speaker 2: like serendipitous, the friends I made along that journey, like
Speaker 2: being at E. C. Berkeley and yeah, really just like
Speaker 2: romanticizing walking around Telegraph Avenue, just like you were doing
Speaker 2: it my little journal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but never did you know. It's fun And like
Speaker 1: you say, you feel now almost like you're reaching a
Speaker 1: second adolescence it's like I can relate because I never
Speaker 1: I feel younger in a way than I ever did,
Speaker 1: because back then I felt like old. I felt like
Speaker 1: or like I was like.
Speaker 2: Like, like, do you have a timeless quality to you?
Speaker 2: I feel like you're like you could jump back back
Speaker 2: and forth and thank you.
Speaker 1: I'll accept that. I'd never considered that for myself, but
Speaker 1: maybe that's the truth. But like that, I felt like
Speaker 1: I was like running out of time. Like I don't
Speaker 1: know how to explain that, but I felt I was like,
Speaker 1: I remember when you picked up but then you were
Speaker 1: about to say you started picking up some loop pedals.
Speaker 1: If I remember were you getting music equipment? And I
Speaker 1: remember like looking at you and just being like are
Speaker 1: we too old for this?
Speaker 2: Ship? I remember this conversation I feel like we were
Speaker 2: talking about. I was like, I think I'm gonna start
Speaker 2: doing this.
Speaker 1: And you're like, I'm about to learn. Like you got
Speaker 1: like a keep, you were so excited you got a keyboard,
Speaker 1: and like all the time, I'm like like, and I
Speaker 1: think you know somewhere, I think you know I probably
Speaker 1: would have loved and have done the same thing.
Speaker 2: The time you're trying to take me down, aren't we aren't.
Speaker 1: We I just want to bring down with me, like
Speaker 1: I think we're like too old for this ship, Like
Speaker 1: what are you afterwards?
Speaker 2: Like let me see if I can what I can. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it blew me.
Speaker 1: Away because like it's like you you started doing that
Speaker 1: and then like pretty quickly the music you were making
Speaker 1: was psycho.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm glad that it was quick because I
Speaker 2: didn't have time to waste, you know, like if it
Speaker 2: was sorted out within the next few years, then what No.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I've always had the mentality of
Speaker 2: feeling like a late bloomer, feeling like my pace is
Speaker 2: like a little bit behind everybody else. So good thing.
Speaker 2: I wasn't in that frame of mind where I want
Speaker 2: I wasn't running, you know. I was like this is
Speaker 2: this is happening, and I'm doing it and yeah, there
Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of questioning right at that point
Speaker 2: in my life. Now there is. Now there's a lot
Speaker 2: more of like what's to come and what's next? And
Speaker 2: I you don't I have to actively work to like
Speaker 2: cast those thoughts away. But yeah, I'm curious, why do
Speaker 2: you feel like you're you feel like younger than you
Speaker 2: have previously, you feel like it's about sort of having
Speaker 2: some security that.
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't know. I think it's
Speaker 1: something to do with I don't know that that feeling
Speaker 1: of running out of time has gone away, Like I
Speaker 1: feel like I.
Speaker 2: Have coasting, So I don't know.
Speaker 1: No, I don't know about coasting as much as I
Speaker 1: hope I'm not gonna be maybe I hope not, though, No,
Speaker 1: but I just feel like I have more time than that,
Speaker 1: which is so I like the complete opposite feeling was
Speaker 1: whereas then I felt like there was not there was
Speaker 1: no time and I was late, and you know, like
Speaker 1: now I'm like, oh, there's.
Speaker 2: Nothing trying to catch that bus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just trying to catch that bus exactly. But
Speaker 1: but now, yeah, I guess maybe now I'm on the
Speaker 1: bus and I'm like, yo, there's there's nothing but time.
Speaker 1: And so it's just that it's just a feeling. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's even like a real thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's a real that thing that
Speaker 2: can manifest physically though, Like I feel like you can
Speaker 2: pause or slow down time depending on your perspective and mentality.
Speaker 2: It's like it stretches and it contracts and it condenses
Speaker 2: like depending on all of those things. But like you're
Speaker 2: time traveling different than I am and everybody else. It's
Speaker 2: an interesting sensation. I feel like time is just like
Speaker 2: rapidly going by so fast, Like I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: constantly running out of time.
Speaker 1: Totally switch physicians. So what change? What changed for you?
Speaker 1: Because because you know, it's like, I don't know, I've
Speaker 1: never like I don't even I hesitate to say that,
Speaker 1: like you've clearly hit your stride because like I've always
Speaker 1: thought of you as a person who was like top
Speaker 1: tier at like whatever whatever you were doing, I always
Speaker 1: feel like you were doing it well. So I feel
Speaker 1: like you've kind of always been in your stride. So
Speaker 1: I don't mean it that was competitive.
Speaker 2: They gotta at least give that impression even if I'm not.
Speaker 1: No, I believe I believe you are secretly competitive. But no,
Speaker 1: but but it me. I mean, you've clearly like carved
Speaker 1: out like a really nice space for yourself. So why
Speaker 1: do you feel like now you're feeling.
Speaker 2: I mean, I just it's more of like a sentimentality thing,
Speaker 2: like I don't want it to go away, Like I
Speaker 2: don't want the I want it to last longer. So
Speaker 2: maybe it's actively thinking about that that can speed up things.
Speaker 2: You know, it's I think there's this resistance is an
Speaker 2: interesting principle where it's like, yeah, the more you are
Speaker 2: resistant to something, the more push back against you. So
Speaker 2: I think me being like I want to dwell in
Speaker 2: this moment for as long as I can, and like
Speaker 2: kind of like almost like feeling like mourning that this
Speaker 2: time is gonna not last forever. That makes it go
Speaker 2: by quicker. So it's just like you got to practice
Speaker 2: I tried to remind myself to practice like more presence,
Speaker 2: and you know, everything runs its course in certain ways,
Speaker 2: and who knows, Like, I mean, this is a current
Speaker 2: that I'm in right now, but there's so many other
Speaker 2: creative like potentials for the future, and like I didn't
Speaker 2: see this coming for myself, Like at that time when
Speaker 2: we were talking about music, I was just like, I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna get some keyboards and mess around. I didn't
Speaker 2: see this as where I would be at all, So
Speaker 2: who knows what's next in ten years?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Is this feeling where uh like, keep it keep
Speaker 1: it alive comes from oh yeah a song?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. That track makes me anxious to
Speaker 2: listen to. I enjoy it, but yeah, that's definitely the
Speaker 2: quality in it is trying to just stay ahead and
Speaker 2: outpace the maybe responsibilities and you know, inevitable endings. It's
Speaker 2: kind of the the vibe on that one.
Speaker 1: Do you remember Strumer sitting down to write that.
Speaker 2: I remember that strangely a lot of times, the songs
Speaker 2: that I end up making our versions of other songs
Speaker 2: that people might never make the connection to. Like I
Speaker 2: was listening to it's like an eighties Marvin Gaye album,
Speaker 2: and there's the opening of it. The strings on it
Speaker 2: are doing something really weird, and I kind of ripped
Speaker 2: the stringline a little bit from this track and it
Speaker 2: created this sense of like chaos. But in his version,
Speaker 2: of course, it's like super dreamy and romantic and like lush,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I'm gonna kind of borrow this like
Speaker 2: chord change and put it in this context and it's
Speaker 2: gonna sound super hectic.
Speaker 1: Was it the sexual Healing album?
Speaker 2: No, it's Dream of a Lifetime, So it's it's it's madness.
Speaker 2: You know that one, And I don't know that you
Speaker 2: should listen to it. And now I'm wondering if you related.
Speaker 1: At all, probably not because I didn't hear any Marven
Speaker 1: on this, but I mean that's kind of the cool
Speaker 1: That's why that's a that's a really cool approach to
Speaker 1: making something because it's like it's kind of like it's
Speaker 1: like sampling in a way, like it's like taking something
Speaker 1: from something that you really like and it's turning it
Speaker 1: making it work for you, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the song, like the lyrics, it's like he's
Speaker 2: saying it's called it's madness, so he's kind of dealing
Speaker 2: with I think, similar ideas with it where it's like
Speaker 2: time running out and like sort of like living in
Speaker 2: a cyclone in your mind, and he's he's like, oh
Speaker 2: with is Mama, And he's like it's an interesting and
Speaker 2: weird song where it's like super dreamy and beautiful, but
Speaker 2: then the lyrics are kind of dark and yeah.
Speaker 1: Well Marvin's Casey really was running out of time too,
Speaker 1: which is the eerie thing. Yeah, but you know, like
Speaker 1: I wonder like with him, you know you could you
Speaker 1: can go to also like a like a like a
Speaker 1: guy like Tupac obviously to right, he's always like rapping
Speaker 1: about his own death and it's like prophetic yeah, like
Speaker 1: was it prophetic or did you make it real? You know?
Speaker 2: So I just wonder Jeff Buckley too, But I've been
Speaker 2: spending a lot of time listening to Grace. That was
Speaker 2: a sort of entry point into like how am I
Speaker 2: going to shape the sounds on Portrait of My Heart too,
Speaker 2: and thinking about his like it kind of sounds like
Speaker 2: sometimes when he's singing, he can censor, like perceive running
Speaker 2: out of time, and there's that like almost desperate to
Speaker 2: his voice that makes it so good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder though, like how much of that is
Speaker 1: is like perceiving truth or reality or how much of
Speaker 1: that is just like people reading signals wrong or just
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't know, like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or sabotage self sabotage, sabotage you know, like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's interesting. It's kind of like I always reference that
Speaker 2: like meme of the cartoons on the bus, like ones
Speaker 2: looking at the window all happy looking and the other
Speaker 2: one's like sad, and it's like it'll stay the same thing,
Speaker 2: Like I just saw it yesterday and it's like I
Speaker 2: don't understand David Lynch And it's like someone looking at
Speaker 2: the window looking all happy and then the sad person's
Speaker 2: like I don't understand David Lynch. It's like it's just
Speaker 2: like yeah, you know, like I'm running out of time,
Speaker 2: like I could be really depressed about that, or I'm
Speaker 2: running out of time like you know, things are just
Speaker 2: gonna happen, and you can like it can be to
Speaker 2: your empowerment to see it that way. Sure, I guess
Speaker 2: I don't, Like I don't know next topic.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can find the framing of
Speaker 1: that to be a I mean, it might be maybe
Speaker 1: that's my limited perspective. That might be my you know,
Speaker 1: my hang up. I'm not sure, but I know what
Speaker 1: that feeling is, and you know, I just so much
Speaker 1: preferred not to be it's a because it can be
Speaker 1: limiting in its own way, you know, Like like again
Speaker 1: like where you were when you started this music thing
Speaker 1: is like certainly you were not in that space and
Speaker 1: that allowed you to, you know, just be more improvisational,
Speaker 1: like I want to get this keyboard and mess around
Speaker 1: and then you know, you just never know when you're
Speaker 1: improvising in life like what that can lead to, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's a living more in that space to me,
Speaker 1: even though like you know, you listen to more and
Speaker 1: that guy he's just he's so tortured and the music
Speaker 1: is so beautiful, but I just prefer it just seems
Speaker 1: like life is better when you're when when when you're
Speaker 1: allowing yourself the lee way to you know, try things
Speaker 1: and not feel like I have to do this because
Speaker 1: there's not you know, I don't enough time.
Speaker 2: I got to do this now, I know, I know,
Speaker 2: and I want. I think going forward a lot of
Speaker 2: conversations and like some album interviews I've been doing, the
Speaker 2: more I talk about the like journey and the origins
Speaker 2: of this project and where it's headed, I feel so
Speaker 2: like I have to continue to nourish the things that
Speaker 2: feed that and feel that because it's gotten me to
Speaker 2: this place. And the more I try to like play
Speaker 2: by the book or follow them the sort of industry standard,
Speaker 2: it's gonna strip away more than it's going to add.
Speaker 2: And I don't necessarily know what that will look like yet,
Speaker 2: but I think it's something that's just actively on my
Speaker 2: mind and going to start, you know, looking for more
Speaker 2: opportunities to recreate kind of like the improvisational space you're describing,
Speaker 2: where it's like you're not I'm not feeling pressured to
Speaker 2: or obligated to do things a certain way and with
Speaker 2: the portrait of my heart, and I had to see
Speaker 2: it through. It was what was calling to me. And
Speaker 2: I'm really happy with how it all came together. And
Speaker 2: but there is this I can feel my intuition being
Speaker 2: like what's next is stripping back again and kind of
Speaker 2: going back into like a solo approach and getting messier
Speaker 2: with my stuff because I've gained a lot of technical
Speaker 2: skill and like you know, spent that put the work
Speaker 2: in on, Like I know how to make the things
Speaker 2: I want and they can somewhat match what ideas I have.
Speaker 2: I didn't have that when I was working on Pantheon.
Speaker 2: I was just like fruit Loop, Studio free Edition, like Audacity,
Speaker 2: just like record. I don't know how to fix that.
Speaker 2: So it's just going to be that way. And then
Speaker 2: you know, like I don't know what I was doing
Speaker 2: at all, so.
Speaker 1: But you didn't know, and but like you, but like,
Speaker 1: but it's not true, Like you you managed to make
Speaker 1: something that felt right to you at least I think
Speaker 1: or felt right to other people. I mean, that's a
Speaker 1: that's a great project. But you've definitely gained like the
Speaker 1: ability to maybe be more precise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe be more precise, and yeah, just know more
Speaker 2: how to use like do things more efficiently because I
Speaker 2: spent a little like it took a long time to
Speaker 2: make things that I could do a lot quicker now.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I look forward to that. I want to
Speaker 2: just I have another set of songs that I was
Speaker 2: working on kind of alongside Portrait of My Heart and
Speaker 2: decided to just go with the like funnel those and
Speaker 2: to the like a little more pop sensibility album. But
Speaker 2: then the other stuff is like a lot more lo
Speaker 2: fi and just more like the Witchy Spelling origin stuff.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Spelling after this break.
Speaker 1: Spelling as the uh you know the name you release
Speaker 1: stuff under, is that is that witchy in origin?
Speaker 2: It's yeah, somewhat, yeah, sort of in the more of
Speaker 2: like it was funny to me as a name. I
Speaker 2: liked that the word itself kind of made me think
Speaker 2: of like a creature and I would like imagine myself
Speaker 2: as this little like elevin creature name spelling, and but yeah,
Speaker 2: just it was just a reference to words, and like
Speaker 2: words is magic and cantation, and I think, yeah, the
Speaker 2: early stuff I was making like Creola Church. It was
Speaker 2: like a lot of repetition, just a lot of like
Speaker 2: repeating words over and over until it felt like it's
Speaker 2: turning into some sort of hypnotic state. And that's where
Speaker 2: that comes from.
Speaker 1: In this Is there any of that in your mind
Speaker 1: in the on the new project, in the new album, Like,
Speaker 1: is that still a part of what you're doing or somewhat?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I'm always the biggest things I'm
Speaker 2: always inspired by are usually like books and literature, poetry,
Speaker 2: and so those influencers are always there. Even when I'm
Speaker 2: describing like oh, these are like more just like matters
Speaker 2: of the heart and like situational like love stories and
Speaker 2: things like that, It's still still very much being drawn
Speaker 2: from like a lot of like research and interests and
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. And Portrait in My Heart was
Speaker 2: the first song that kind of opened up the floodgates
Speaker 2: for what was to come after with the rest of
Speaker 2: the album.
Speaker 1: And that was the first song you wrote.
Speaker 2: That was the first song I wrote. Yeah, And I remember.
Speaker 3: The line thea like that came to me on the
Speaker 3: when I was on the piano, and I remember it
Speaker 3: sounding kind of like a halftime thing likea.
Speaker 2: Like that, I'm very like slow, and I was like
Speaker 2: this is cool, Like this is giving. I don't know
Speaker 2: what this is giving, but it's got something. And then
Speaker 2: I was frustrated with like I felt like it needed
Speaker 2: to be more aggressive and I felt fresh, Like I
Speaker 2: was like, I don't want to make another like long, slow,
Speaker 2: dramatic song like I want to. I just want to
Speaker 2: switch it up. So then I started messing around with
Speaker 2: the drum machine and when I had that like like that,
Speaker 2: and then I changed the way that the line came through,
Speaker 2: and then Yeah, the vibe of that whole track on
Speaker 2: my mind at the time was like what's next and
Speaker 2: what's to come? Like feeling like I'm running out of
Speaker 2: time all those things, and like feeling a lot of
Speaker 2: apprehension and self doubt as far as like god, being
Speaker 2: an artist, you're just like constantly thinking about yourself, like
Speaker 2: this kind of sucks, Like I'm tired of this, Like
Speaker 2: I'm tired of hearing my own boys, I'm tired of
Speaker 2: what I have to do next, And I just feeling
Speaker 2: like it's so selfish to be my so self absorbed,
Speaker 2: you know, with but that's what it takes to make
Speaker 2: the thing. So yeah, the song is kind of about
Speaker 2: that and just feeling like, you know, you're pursuing your
Speaker 2: pursuing your idea to this extreme where you're starting to
Speaker 2: like lose track of reality, lose track of what's important
Speaker 2: to you and your life, and things really just start
Speaker 2: to fade away, and you like live in a delusion,
Speaker 2: and a lot of times, like to make the best things,
Speaker 2: you gotta like live in the delusion. And so I
Speaker 2: was fully living in that, and the lyrics came through
Speaker 2: like that, like lost, shattered in the dark, stranger in
Speaker 2: my head. It's like grappling with like the artist self
Speaker 2: and creating a kind of like a prison of your
Speaker 2: own imagination. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I haven't really thought about it that way, but it's
Speaker 1: like one of the great ironies of being an artist,
Speaker 1: I guess is you're constantly I guess it's by nature
Speaker 1: a bits it is a bit selfish, or maybe there's
Speaker 1: another way of thinking about it, but that definitely is
Speaker 1: you know, yeah it.
Speaker 2: I mean it's a beautiful part of it too, and
Speaker 2: that's that's the song is kind of just questioning all
Speaker 2: these things, and I think the spiritual portion that comes
Speaker 2: in is like this feeling or sensation sometimes that I have.
Speaker 2: It's like my relationship with God and feeling like God
Speaker 2: is the ultimate artist, and like has you know, placed
Speaker 2: certain like circumstances or situations for each individual life and
Speaker 2: like what you push back or what you contribute towards
Speaker 2: it versus what you don't how much of that is
Speaker 2: like your responsibility and like almost even like as being
Speaker 2: as an artist, are you like challenging against like your
Speaker 2: nature and what God intended you to do? So that
Speaker 2: that's kind of like I.
Speaker 1: Mean, so you feel like maybe God was not intending
Speaker 1: for you to be an.
Speaker 2: Artist, yeah, or maybe that your those like your gifts
Speaker 2: or abilities could be better placed through other things instead
Speaker 2: of this, Like was.
Speaker 1: It teaching that was the other thing?
Speaker 2: Could you another thing?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I could see another life path where that was like
Speaker 2: where I like put my efforts and my gifts towards
Speaker 2: or I don't know, like being a mother or being
Speaker 2: like you know, these other roles or yeah, these other
Speaker 2: roles in life that like I haven't necessarily chosen or
Speaker 2: hasn't haven't happened. So that was the crisis of that song.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, like choosing Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: just as like a parent now three times over. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't think I've ever chose.
Speaker 2: You were chosen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was that was the other way I was chosen. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just sure when it's funny, we always
Speaker 1: think about that as a good you know, when I
Speaker 1: talk to other people, like, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: want to, I don't know if it's like so much
Speaker 1: up to you, you know, I don't know it's so
Speaker 1: much up to any of us, you know. So you know,
Speaker 1: but it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean, well, it's not that I see it that way.
Speaker 2: It's just that kind of like those curiosities coming up,
Speaker 2: you know. And yeah, I encountered some like weird poem
Speaker 2: that was talking about an artist as like a thief
Speaker 2: or like a sort of like a con artist, like
Speaker 2: you know, like portray reality in a way that it's
Speaker 2: not and like taking your money for it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: And it's it's just like a weird, funny, interesting concept
Speaker 2: to me, right where it's like an artist kind of
Speaker 2: demands a lot from you they can, and there's this
Speaker 2: of like narcissism involved, and it's like their their job
Speaker 2: is to like create a reality that's not reality. And
Speaker 2: like sell you on it.
Speaker 1: This is a that's a very Bay area. Yeah, person,
Speaker 1: I'm living down here in l A. And it's like
Speaker 1: normal than me. Take the money and run.
Speaker 2: I know. That's why I need to move down here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but no, but it's not like it's not a
Speaker 1: it's not a wrong interpretation, but you know, or that
Speaker 1: certainly can seem true.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What other stuff were you reading or watching or listening
Speaker 1: to around this?
Speaker 2: Hmm? I did a lot less of that. I mean
Speaker 2: also for Portrait of My Heart. I had seen that
Speaker 2: movie What Dreams Bake and that also like inspired with
Speaker 2: Robin Williams and Cuba getting juniors in it, and he's
Speaker 2: the angel if I ever saw it, he did it.
Speaker 1: I remember the movie It's Freaky.
Speaker 2: That also lended into a lot of the like imagery
Speaker 2: in that song, because it's like he his wife passes
Speaker 2: away and he's trying to like rescue her from health
Speaker 2: and he goes on this whole odyssey and uh, the
Speaker 2: way she was a painter in the movie and so
Speaker 2: like her re out, like her Heaven I think is
Speaker 2: like all like watercolor painting, and it's like really beautiful.
Speaker 2: She moves through it and it's like the trees are
Speaker 2: all rippling with paint and stuff, and so that that
Speaker 2: was the I had seen it a long time ago
Speaker 2: and always was kind of freaked out by it by
Speaker 2: it and it's a really intense movie, but it's also
Speaker 2: so beautiful, and I had watched it again and that
Speaker 2: kind of helped me with that song Portrait of My
Speaker 2: Heart and just like kind of like that theme in
Speaker 2: general of just like painting and yeah, and yeah, other
Speaker 2: books like mount Anlo that's a song based off that,
Speaker 2: And that's a book that I really enjoyed. I found
Speaker 2: it at.
Speaker 1: Wait, it's a book, Mountain, not analog. I didn't know
Speaker 1: there was a book. Yeah, I loved that title.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just gonna call it an analog. But
Speaker 2: I'm glad I threw I kept the Mountain so anyone
Speaker 2: can like look it up and hopefully read it. It's
Speaker 2: I found it. There's this bookstore and Silverlate called Stories.
Speaker 2: One of the times I was out here, it was
Speaker 2: up on the shelf for like staff picks, and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, it's like inspired Alejandro Jodrowski's Holy Mountain,
Speaker 2: and so he was inspired by that book to make that.
Speaker 1: Movie and analog. Yeah, no way, well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's beautiful. It's just like it's like
Speaker 2: an adventure story about a group of mountaineers that try
Speaker 2: to scale this mythic mountain that's supposed to exist somewhere,
Speaker 2: but it's like hidden from from view and you can
Speaker 2: only you know, find it if you're coming with like
Speaker 2: a pure heart and intentions. And there's just like weird
Speaker 2: mystical concepts in it that I really latched onto and
Speaker 2: it tried to infuse in the song. And you know,
Speaker 2: they're like sailing towards this mountain, so I'm sort of
Speaker 2: trying to create that. Like there's like this noise starts
Speaker 2: and like grows all the way up till the end
Speaker 2: of the song. It'supposed to sound like waves. Tried to
Speaker 2: like set the scene that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good music can be so dense sometimes in like
Speaker 1: really cool ways, Like like I don't mean that dense,
Speaker 1: maybe lush is the word, but do things tend to
Speaker 1: start more simply and then did they come to you
Speaker 1: sort of like with almost pre arranged in a sense
Speaker 1: of like you kind of know all the different kinds
Speaker 1: of sounds you want in this thing.
Speaker 2: I think that's that's more the case like I usually have.
Speaker 2: It's more about reeling back than like adding a bunch
Speaker 2: more like That's never really been a big struggle with
Speaker 2: me as far as like arranging or writing a song.
Speaker 2: Was just like some people describe like they can't stop
Speaker 2: or they keep adding stuff or don't know when to stop.
Speaker 2: I feel like I always know when to stop, and
Speaker 2: usually I'm kind of stripping things back. That's kind of
Speaker 2: more the process and some more than others. Like I
Speaker 2: think the most challenging track was Waterfall, where I played
Speaker 2: around with so many different versions and like tempos and
Speaker 2: nothing felt quite right and we landed somewhere that I'm
Speaker 2: happy with. That's my favorite song on the album, as
Speaker 2: long as it's capturing the core in a really authentic
Speaker 2: way that I'm happy and I kind of feel like
Speaker 2: the ornamentation of things can kind of be interchangeable.
Speaker 1: What makes Waterfall your favorite song?
Speaker 2: I think because it was such a puzzle to hack
Speaker 2: and like figure out that it was just so satisfying
Speaker 2: once it really clicked, because I was kind of like, damn,
Speaker 2: am I going to compromise and just kind of put
Speaker 2: this out even though it doesn't feel one hundred percent right,
Speaker 2: and I really didn't want to do that. And then
Speaker 2: at the last minute it kind of fell together. And
Speaker 2: I was in Athens, Georgia mixing the album with Yeah,
Speaker 2: like a couple days left, and I still didn't have
Speaker 2: the lyrics really figured out. I was like, well, mix
Speaker 2: the song last and like hopefully something comes together. And
Speaker 2: I was driving home and it's like the like the
Speaker 2: like country South darkness that's like ooh, like it's just
Speaker 2: you feel it and your bones kind of a thing.
Speaker 2: And I was driving and listening to the demo and
Speaker 2: like started to get that like shivery feeling where it's
Speaker 2: like ooh, I feel like kind of scared but like
Speaker 2: also like dangerous right now. And I felt like this
Speaker 2: rush of like I don't know, just like a flash
Speaker 2: of inspiration and helped me figure out the lyrics on that.
Speaker 2: But it was amazing. There's always there's always a story
Speaker 2: like that, like last minute some things like he had
Speaker 2: to get to this point to finally be handed that.
Speaker 2: That's how I feel about that track, So it's a favorite.
Speaker 2: And also just the lyrics are super special to me.
Speaker 2: It's about losing somebody and like I lost a friend
Speaker 2: of mine, David who also inspired me to start making music,
Speaker 2: and so I had him in mind and was like
Speaker 2: thinking about him through this process and like kind of
Speaker 2: being like my guiding angel through this whole experience of
Speaker 2: being an artist. Now, so the song is dedicated to
Speaker 2: him and thinking about grief as like it's just change
Speaker 2: as a form.
Speaker 1: Of change, and yeah, yes, what what happened?
Speaker 2: He died tragically and he was hit by a unibus
Speaker 2: and it was like he was only we were all
Speaker 2: like in our early twenties twenty two at the time.
Speaker 2: This was at the Telegraph house that we were all
Speaker 2: living in, so he was one of my roommates. And
Speaker 2: this is like a beautiful, flamboyant person who would just
Speaker 2: like bust into my room all the time and be like,
Speaker 2: let's go do stuff together. So I moved into his
Speaker 2: room after he had passed, like later months later, and
Speaker 2: that's when I started getting music equipment because I was
Speaker 2: like I feel him. I could feel him in the room,
Speaker 2: and I feel like he would want me to be
Speaker 2: making stuff. Wow, Yeah, I wanted to, like I always
Speaker 2: sing and like make things, but I didn't think my
Speaker 2: voice was strong, Like it was something that I didn't
Speaker 2: push it or try to like take it seriously. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I was like, this is just another tool for me
Speaker 2: when I started making music to like, you know, just
Speaker 2: kind of like the like producer who also makes music
Speaker 2: sort of thing where the voice is just being utilized
Speaker 2: hopefully like as another instrument. But it wasn't something like
Speaker 2: where I came in as like I'm a singer and
Speaker 2: then you know, I feel a lot more confident in
Speaker 2: my voice now it's grown on me. But yeah, moments
Speaker 2: of songs like Alibi or certain songs, I'm just like
Speaker 2: it feels like to me, like to me too much
Speaker 2: me in there.
Speaker 1: It's interesting.
Speaker 2: It's too much like in this track like Analog, where
Speaker 2: it's like I can kind of feel like I'm like
Speaker 2: I'm just a part of the music more got it, Yeah,
Speaker 2: part of the tapestry. And then in Alibi it's like
Speaker 2: I'm gotta be like deliver in this this other way
Speaker 2: where it's just a different sensation.
Speaker 1: It is a pretty straight straight ahead song. You know
Speaker 1: that feels new for you on the album, And I
Speaker 1: was mentioning earlier like the abundance of guitar also feels
Speaker 1: new for you. Yeah, how did that come together? Like
Speaker 1: what when did you realize you were gonna that was
Speaker 1: gonna be drive a lot of the sound.
Speaker 2: I guess when Portrait clicked in the way that it did,
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, I'm going back in time. I'm
Speaker 2: going back to this like sort of high school self.
Speaker 2: What was I listening to then? What were the things
Speaker 2: that fueled that attitude? And I needed to kind of
Speaker 2: like get in my radio head bag, my like system
Speaker 2: of a down and smashing pumpkins and all of the
Speaker 2: like kind of nineties grunge rock stuff, And that just
Speaker 2: made it sense to me, like, oh, I'm gonna it's
Speaker 2: gonna be guitar based, and that'll be a sort of
Speaker 2: like touchstone for the first time, because I think before
Speaker 2: then I never like I didn't just made whatever and
Speaker 2: like let the song demand what instruments to use. And
Speaker 2: this time I'm like, I want to have a little
Speaker 2: bit more of a centerpiece here. So rock Palette.
Speaker 1: You forced the issue, We're gonna issue.
Speaker 2: Sit on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, stay visits down what I don't even know who
Speaker 1: played guitar on that?
Speaker 2: No, my band, So in my band right now, Wyatt
Speaker 2: plays guitar. He played all the songs on Portrait, and
Speaker 2: we had a couple of guests like on Alibi, Pat
Speaker 2: from Turnstile like also played on that and Braxton from Zulu.
Speaker 2: So yeah, but Whyatt held down and like helped me
Speaker 2: like arrange and write a lot of this stuff. And
Speaker 2: then Julio it's our bass player. He's a jazz player.
Speaker 2: He's like you know his style. He's like a music addict.
Speaker 2: He can't stop playing music, you know, like every day
Speaker 2: he has a gig. And he always mixed the live
Speaker 2: performances really dynamic. And I'll be like, Okay, we have
Speaker 2: our set lists. This is what we're gonna do every night,
Speaker 2: you know, because it feels good to kind of just
Speaker 2: like lock in and get better at the same thing.
Speaker 2: And he'll be like, this is boring. We gotta do
Speaker 2: like I'm gonna do something different every night, you know.
Speaker 1: Like, so who's on Satisfaction? Is that? Why?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: That gets pretty hardcore? What did that call him at
Speaker 1: the end? Or were you like we're gonna for sure
Speaker 1: just gonna like funny, did you know from the jump
Speaker 1: that you were going to song would end up like yeah,
Speaker 1: turn that into like a slayer.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember where that song even when I
Speaker 2: wrote that one. I think it was kind of like
Speaker 2: having this more like wicked synth flare to it at first,
Speaker 2: Like I remember making that the guitar line that's like
Speaker 2: no no, no, no no no, and it kind of
Speaker 2: had more of like a Queen of Wands sort of
Speaker 2: like prog synth rock feeling to it. Like I started
Speaker 2: to get real theatrical with like all the synth work
Speaker 2: and stuff, and I'm like, what would it sound like
Speaker 2: it was stripped down and just like a much more
Speaker 2: brutal and just guitar instead of all this like chaotic
Speaker 2: synth stuff happening.
Speaker 1: Like the guitar was down bad for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like it could use a renaissance, like I like having music,
Speaker 1: so I was, but it's just it was such a
Speaker 1: wild that wasn't a flavor I was used to from
Speaker 1: your song.
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I know. I mean I think about
Speaker 2: some Pantheon stuff and like I would have the impulse
Speaker 2: to do kind of what I'm doing on Satisfaction or
Speaker 2: with like other heavier tracks, but it's like I just
Speaker 2: didn't have the means too, like real fun. I tried
Speaker 2: to kind of go there and make this like sort
Speaker 2: of like doom metal guitar, but with the synth. So
Speaker 2: I would just like emulate what I wanted to sound
Speaker 2: like on on the gino And what did it lived
Speaker 2: like that I was saying, I feel like the got
Speaker 2: to channel some of those like the first instances of
Speaker 2: music that felt like they were different than what I
Speaker 2: was like growing up listening to, Like my mom listened
Speaker 2: to a lot of neo soul and R and B
Speaker 2: and all that stuff really still comes through too, like
Speaker 2: in the nineties, like Mary J. Blige, like she's one
Speaker 2: of the people who taught me how to sing, and
Speaker 2: Randy and Monica and Tony and like.
Speaker 1: You was like singing other records.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and then you know, so that was the
Speaker 2: music I was like raised on and like in my
Speaker 2: household and like but then I think some of the
Speaker 2: like alt rock stuff I got into, like AFI and
Speaker 2: like pop punk stuff.
Speaker 1: That was your dad. Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, it was like me in like a suburb and
Speaker 2: like going to Borders Bookstore and being like raised by
Speaker 2: Borders Bookstore and like you know that I'm speaking to
Speaker 2: kind of like oh, hearing something else and feeling like
Speaker 2: what is this like for hearing like system of a
Speaker 2: down for the first time and being like, oh, what
Speaker 2: is this feeling happening right now? Like I didn't know
Speaker 2: I had like these sort of sensations inside, but it's
Speaker 2: speaking to something that was there. And yeah, so Portrait
Speaker 2: of my Heart kind of like drawing from that alt
Speaker 2: rock palette that kind of felt like it kind of
Speaker 2: fueled this new fascination and interests in like this is
Speaker 2: my music too, Like this this is stuff that I
Speaker 2: really connect with.
Speaker 1: And like, you play and you played some shows with Turnstile,
Speaker 1: didn't you?
Speaker 2: I did? Yeah, yeah that's I saw Brendan Gates go
Speaker 2: on some podcast maybe and say how he loves Little
Speaker 2: Deer and I was like what it made me so happy?
Speaker 2: And then I think I reached out like DM tim
Speaker 2: or something was like no way, Like that's so cool
Speaker 2: that you even listened to Spelling asked us to play
Speaker 2: some shows. We played open for them in Vegas and
Speaker 2: like Tucson, I think, no, Yeah, it was. It was
Speaker 2: so interesting to stand up there in front of their
Speaker 2: crowd in Vegas.
Speaker 1: Vegas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of confusion. Yeah, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of like puzzled looks and then kind of like
Speaker 2: saw some people converted, like.
Speaker 1: The best kinds of shows of I love those, man.
Speaker 1: I love when it's just not like the perfect match
Speaker 1: for the audience, you know, like that's the most fun. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I thrive on that too, Like I like seeing the
Speaker 2: sort of perplexed crowd and then some heads nodding and
Speaker 2: be like I don't know, okay, Yeah, it was a
Speaker 2: lot of fun. And I love his voice like a
Speaker 2: portrait of my heart. We're working on doing a remix
Speaker 2: with him, so like featuring him on one of the tracks.
Speaker 2: It's just gonna be really great.
Speaker 1: After this break, we'll be back with the rest of
Speaker 1: my conversation with Spelling. Yeah, you're doing a whole remix
Speaker 1: like release of that album, but it's not gonna come.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just be a few tracks, and like Simon and
Speaker 2: I are working on those like remixed versions. And the
Speaker 2: last two years of just put more effort into connecting
Speaker 2: with other artists like that I really like like Brendan,
Speaker 2: and it to me like that's the biggest like affirmation
Speaker 2: along the way, like, oh, these artists I really love,
Speaker 2: like they love Spelling, and what can I like gain
Speaker 2: from that as far as just like creative collaboration and
Speaker 2: seeing what fusion will come from, because I think it's
Speaker 2: pretty all over the spectrum. Like the people who are
Speaker 2: interested in Spelling isn't like they aren't coming from this,
Speaker 2: Like I'm interested in the music because I like hardcore music,
Speaker 2: or I like, you know, this style of music, or
Speaker 2: it's just all over the map.
Speaker 1: Like because I don't know if there's like I don't
Speaker 1: know if you could do an algorithmic like if you
Speaker 1: listen to Spelling, you would also like like it's nothing
Speaker 1: like father to your style.
Speaker 2: You know, there's like sometimes I've like heard my music
Speaker 2: pop up on things I wouldn't expect it to, like algorithmically,
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, oh, I do see the crossover there,
Speaker 2: Like what, I'm a big fan of Cibo Matto and
Speaker 2: I was listening to their album that it sort of
Speaker 2: shuffling other stuff, and then one of my old songs
Speaker 2: was like a jump scare. I was like, what, why
Speaker 2: does this sound so familiar? It was Dirty Desert Dreams
Speaker 2: from Mazy Fly, and I was like, why is this
Speaker 2: playing right now? Yeah? That just sort of I guess
Speaker 2: like synth music.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, but I don't know. I mean, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you definitely have a unique style. Yeah, an amalgamation a lot.
Speaker 1: There's a lot going on in there. This is the
Speaker 1: remix I guess, or they just like duets or like
Speaker 1: wait what are the Yeah? How much are you changing
Speaker 1: the songs?
Speaker 2: I want to change them more like Simon and I.
Speaker 2: He's fantastic also, like we have great chemistry. He worked
Speaker 2: on the track sometimes on That's Just My Bloody Valentine
Speaker 2: cover on Portrait of My Heart, and he also did
Speaker 2: Waterfall and Drain, so he helped me just co produce
Speaker 2: those and then I was like, oh man, this was
Speaker 2: so cool. And I didn't really connect with him until
Speaker 2: towards the tail end of the whole process, and I
Speaker 2: was like, I wish we would have connected way earlier.
Speaker 2: But it's cool. And now I'm like, yeah, let's definitely
Speaker 2: do the remixes together. So so far we're working on three.
Speaker 2: There's I kind of wanted to like keep this a
Speaker 2: surprise though, like who the features are.
Speaker 1: Gotta gotta gotta got it. He worked with the Rabbi
Speaker 1: Zell on the project. Who you know, it's done a
Speaker 1: lot of good work for us and like a bunch
Speaker 1: of other people, how was that?
Speaker 2: It was great? You know, I feel like that was
Speaker 2: my first experience working with the producer. Everything has been
Speaker 2: self produced before, so there's there was definitely like a
Speaker 2: sort of an internal struggle at the concept at first,
Speaker 2: and I knew it would really it would really benefit
Speaker 2: me and help me grow just to get that opportunity.
Speaker 2: So when in and I feel like fifty to fifty,
Speaker 2: like you don't know if you're gonna vibe with someone
Speaker 2: then you can even if you like get along, and
Speaker 2: like it's like, how is that going to translate when
Speaker 2: it comes to like these creative decisions? And so I've
Speaker 2: come a long way as a person as far as
Speaker 2: like being able to even be in that scenario and
Speaker 2: context like what you so would probably just give me
Speaker 2: so much dread and anxiety. But he's the loss of control,
Speaker 2: the loss of control and also just having to make
Speaker 2: decisions with someone, you know, because I think when I'm
Speaker 2: working on my own and solo capacity, which I usually
Speaker 2: do producing, it's like I can take as much time
Speaker 2: as I need and like, you know, like there isn't
Speaker 2: this need to communicate actively, like it's just an internal communication.
Speaker 2: So I was like still a little nervous, but he's great,
Speaker 2: Like he's made everything feel so casual. I don't know
Speaker 2: what I was expecting, but yeah, he just had this
Speaker 2: confidence and like he remember him being like he showed
Speaker 2: me what he was sort of starting out with and
Speaker 2: he's like and I was already really digging it, and
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, don't worry, You're gonna leave here with
Speaker 2: something you love. Like just like I was like, okay, confidence,
Speaker 2: I promise, I guarantee it. No, So he just had
Speaker 2: like a really good like, Oh he's great.
Speaker 1: Like he knows how to like, you know, he knows.
Speaker 2: What he's doing, he knows what he's doing, and he
Speaker 2: had I like that sense of assurance because I, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't want to be in the room with someone
Speaker 2: that's like m you know, like uh, like I want
Speaker 2: like do what you do best and like work from that.
Speaker 2: And like that felt really comforting just to like things
Speaker 2: didn't feel awkward at all. And also it was just
Speaker 2: awesome to see that was my kind of my all
Speaker 2: only one of few experiences seeing someone just like operate
Speaker 2: as a producer too, and I'm like, oh, he's doing
Speaker 2: these things or whatever, and like I do a lot
Speaker 2: of this stuff too, you know, Like it was just
Speaker 2: like affirming to be like, oh, there wasn't a blueprint.
Speaker 2: There's so much experimentation. There's so much just like fucking
Speaker 2: around with this like tape reel and still the like
Speaker 2: sensations of imposter syndrome come up or it's like what
Speaker 2: I do, is that good enough? Or is it like
Speaker 2: refined enough or whatever? And techniques and it's like we
Speaker 2: all don't know what we're doing in some capacity, like
Speaker 2: the idea of expertise is so relative, and especially in art. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, he's he's brilliant and like really helped me
Speaker 2: to like stand on ideas I had and be like no,
Speaker 2: like try it, like actually do it, and would follows through.
Speaker 2: And we came up with some just like some really
Speaker 2: fun stuff on Portrait, particularly like we were like strumming
Speaker 2: this trying to get real like pet sounds with it,
Speaker 2: like i'ming the piano keys and like doing all these
Speaker 2: effects on it and just adding subtle little like stuff
Speaker 2: that made a big difference. And I came in with
Speaker 2: this version of the song that was like once again
Speaker 2: like an eight. It was like eight minutes long, and
Speaker 2: he's like, this is cool, but cut this, cut like
Speaker 2: cut it in half.
Speaker 1: Was there like other sections or the preamble.
Speaker 2: I always do this too, And he's like, it's just
Speaker 2: my pop mind, just kind of saying like this doesn't
Speaker 2: happen again anywhere else in the song. I'm like, it
Speaker 2: was this intro stringline countermelody, and I thought that was
Speaker 2: the sickest part of the song. And I was like,
Speaker 2: there's no way, what like, what do you mean cut that?
Speaker 2: Like that? That is the song right there. And he's like,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't happen ever again, like and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, like and I'm like, fine, we'll just let's
Speaker 2: try it. Let's try it, and like that little voice
Speaker 2: in my head coming up being like this is a
Speaker 2: mistake working with someone else, like I hate this, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: But it was really good for me to kind of
Speaker 2: just see that happen, like, oh, you know, the thing
Speaker 2: that you think is absolutely right sometimes isn't or that like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know to your point about there's no expertise,
Speaker 1: like yeah, we can't even be experts about ourselves and
Speaker 1: what we you know, it's hard to be objective about
Speaker 1: ourselves to anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to be objective, and I always want to just
Speaker 2: do it. It was a good reminder do it takes
Speaker 2: to serve the song, and like, let's just at least
Speaker 2: try it. And I needed that like an outside brain
Speaker 2: to just show it to me in a different lay.
Speaker 2: So bed a really good time.
Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting that on this project you both
Speaker 1: want learned how you can work with a producer, but
Speaker 1: also like you like reified your own sort of abilities
Speaker 1: as a producer too, Like you kind of moving forward,
Speaker 1: do you think you want to self produce again or
Speaker 1: do you want to work with someone else again, or there's.
Speaker 2: A sense of like relief and like I was saying,
Speaker 2: I wanted to just go back to me for this
Speaker 2: next project and see what comes out of that. I'm
Speaker 2: really excited to. Like, yeah, I think that that experience
Speaker 2: with Rob was super affirming. I'm like, I feel like
Speaker 2: I'm I'm a strong producer, Like I know what I want,
Speaker 2: and I think that's the most important thing, is like
Speaker 2: knowing essentially what you want and acting on it, Like
Speaker 2: because you could sit there all day with there's so
Speaker 2: many other versions and options, but ultimately I do know
Speaker 2: what I want strongly, So I think I'm motivated to
Speaker 2: kind of just go there for the for what's next
Speaker 2: like self produce it.
Speaker 1: So future for spelling is let this album come out,
Speaker 1: do the tour, move to LA. It's self produced record.
Speaker 2: Sounds about right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well glad you'll be around more.
Speaker 2: Me too. It's been I don't know. LA is just everything.
Speaker 2: It's like everything everyone says about it at the same time,
Speaker 2: like the good and bad. It's all there and.
Speaker 1: That's very true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, most of the good mostly mostly kid.
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations on the new album.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: It's really great and I'm looking forward to spending more
Speaker 1: time with it.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thanks justin. It's fun talking to you
Speaker 2: and very official.
Speaker 1: An episode description, you'll find a link told playlist of
Speaker 1: some of our favorite spelling songs. Be sure to check
Speaker 1: out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to see
Speaker 1: all of our video interviews, and be sure to follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is
Speaker 1: produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinday.
Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you
Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to
Speaker 1: pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers
Speaker 1: bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine
Speaker 1: a month. Look for pushing and Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions,
Speaker 1: and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,
Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's
Speaker 1: by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.