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Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld. On December twenty one, twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: President Trump signed into law the First Step Act of

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. The Act was the culmination of a bipartisan

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Speaker 1: effort to improve criminal justice outcomes as well as to

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Speaker 1: reduce the size of the federal prison population while also

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Speaker 1: creating processes to maintain public safety. The First Step Act

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Speaker 1: works to assess the recidivism risk and to place prisoners

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Speaker 1: in recidivism reducing programs and productive activities to address their needs.

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Speaker 1: The Act also requires the Bureau of Prisons to assist

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Speaker 1: inmates in applying for federal and state benefits and to

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Speaker 1: obtain identification, including a Social Security card, driver's license, or

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Speaker 1: other official photo identification, and birth certificate. On this fifth

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Speaker 1: anniversary the First Step Act, I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: the impact the passage of the actors had on people

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Speaker 1: and the many lives that have been changed by So

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Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my two guests, Jessica Jackson

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Speaker 1: from Reform Alliance and Adam Clausen, who benefited from the

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Speaker 1: passage of the Act. Jessica and Adam, welcome and thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining me on newt World.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having us on.

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Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, Jessica. Why is prison reform so important

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Speaker 1: to you?

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Speaker 2: Well, for me, this issue is personal. I first came

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Speaker 2: to this issue when I was twenty two years old

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Speaker 2: and I found myself standing in a courtroom in Georgia,

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Speaker 2: holding my two month old daughter and watching my husband

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Speaker 2: get sentenced to fifteen serve six for his drug addiction.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I had no education, no college, no

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Speaker 2: law school. But watching what happened to him, and then

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Speaker 2: seeing so many families in similar positions when I went

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Speaker 2: in the prison to visit him, It's what drove me

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Speaker 2: to get into being a lawyer and get into prison reform.

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Speaker 1: So that had a huge impact on your life.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I was planning on being a stay at home

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Speaker 2: home but life had other plans for me.

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Speaker 1: You've got your bachelor's degree in political science and English

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Speaker 1: from the Honors College of the University of South Florida.

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Speaker 1: Then you got your jd. Juris Doctorate from Santa Clara

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Speaker 1: University School of Law, where you got the Dean's Leadership Award.

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Speaker 1: That's sure a whole lot of achievement for somebody who

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Speaker 1: was just standing. They're not sure what they were going

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I found my calling in that moment, and it's

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Speaker 2: been encouraged ever since. Every time I meet somebody like

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Speaker 2: Adam or one of the other families who has somebody

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Speaker 2: who's in prison, I'm just driven to continue the work

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Speaker 2: that I do.

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Speaker 1: Adam, we're very grateful to you agreed to share with

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Speaker 1: us your experience. Let's start with, how did you end

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Speaker 1: up in prison with a two hundred and thirteen year sentence.

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Speaker 3: Sure, that's a pretty outrageous number, isn't it. So I

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Speaker 3: made a lot of mistakes in my youth, admittedly, and

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Speaker 3: the first time I went to prison was eighteen years old,

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Speaker 3: was with the wrong group of individuals, committed a string

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Speaker 3: of burglaries and a robbery, sent me to a state prison.

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Speaker 3: I did a few years. I didn't really come out

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Speaker 3: with a plan on what I was going to do

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Speaker 3: with my life. Fell right back into the same cycle

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Speaker 3: when door after door was basically closed. I couldn't see

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Speaker 3: any opportunity for myself, and you know, I struggled with addiction,

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Speaker 3: the things that I did to cover up the underlying issues,

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Speaker 3: the trauma that was there. So ultimately, I you know,

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Speaker 3: found myself out of desperation. I committed a string of

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Speaker 3: armed robberies that were very serious, which ultimately led me

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Speaker 3: to federal court where I was facing mandatory minimum sentences

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Speaker 3: for the use of a firearm during the commission of

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Speaker 3: a crime.

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Speaker 1: Time.

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Speaker 3: Ultimately, I went to trial and I was sentenced to

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Speaker 3: two hundred and thirteen years as a result of that

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Speaker 3: string of robberies, which took place over the course of

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Speaker 3: just two weeks. I was in my early twenties, and

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Speaker 3: that was a lot of time to be sentenced to,

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Speaker 3: and I found myself in federal prison, you know, then

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Speaker 3: trying to figure out what I was going to do

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Speaker 3: with the rest of my life.

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Speaker 1: Well, theoretically you'd have been two hundred and thirty eight

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Speaker 1: when you got out. Were the sentences concurrent or were

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Speaker 1: they supposed to be served one after the other.

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Speaker 3: I design this statute that basically netted me two hundred

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Speaker 3: and five years. Of that two hundred and thirteen year

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Speaker 3: sentence were mandatory minimums under the nine to twenty four

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Speaker 3: s use of a firearm provision that was at that

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Speaker 3: time was mandated to be served consecutively. And it's the

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Speaker 3: only place the federal law where that sort of structure

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Speaker 3: existed and that's how it resulted in such an outrageous sentence.

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Speaker 1: From that standpoint, Jessica, you were actually trying to deal

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Speaker 1: with those kind of impossible sentencing. And what is it

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Speaker 1: that led you to focus on passing the twenty eighteen

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Speaker 1: First Step Act. Why did this matter to you so much?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think as you look around the country, you

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Speaker 2: see a lot of really unfair sentencing, similar to what

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Speaker 2: Adam described. You had three strikes you're out in California,

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Speaker 2: that could be three petty thefts and you would have

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Speaker 2: been out. You had people serving life for drug abuse

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Speaker 2: when they were young. You have people who get the

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Speaker 2: death penalty who haven't even killed somebody. So there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of unfair sentencing all around the country. But for

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Speaker 2: the federal government, which is the largest system, we knew that,

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the sentences had been on

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Speaker 2: the books for deaths gates and hadn't been touched, they

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Speaker 2: hadn't been revisited. And we heard so many stories of

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Speaker 2: people like Adam who had gone inside, taken accountability for

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Speaker 2: what they had done, and taken advantage of the little

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Speaker 2: bit of programming there was inside and really turned their

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Speaker 2: lives around. And now they didn't have any hope forever

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Speaker 2: coming home despite having made significant changes. I had to

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Speaker 2: think to myself, right, when you're in your young twenties,

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Speaker 2: like Adam was, you're a totally different person by the

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Speaker 2: time you hit forty. And to not get a chance

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Speaker 2: another chance at life, especially in a crime where nobody

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Speaker 2: was hurt, to not get another chance to show that

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Speaker 2: you can live in society is just devastating, and people

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Speaker 2: didn't have any hope. So that's why we decided to

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Speaker 2: work on the First Step Act. It was the most

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Speaker 2: unlikely political atmosphere for such a bill, but it led

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Speaker 2: to an incredible coalition of people coming together from across

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Speaker 2: the Aisle.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I remember working on this issue

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Speaker 1: when President Obama was president at the time. We still

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Speaker 1: couldn't move it, although we had. Governor Deal of Georgia

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Speaker 1: gave just an amazingly compelling speech in one of the

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Speaker 1: conferences about how his eyes had been open because his

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Speaker 1: son had become a drug judge dealing with various drug

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Speaker 1: addicts and drug dealings, and his son had convinced him

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Speaker 1: there was something profoundly wrong about the way we were

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Speaker 1: approaching it. Governor Deal was amazingly powerful in talking about

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Speaker 1: giving people a second chance, but in something I don't

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Speaker 1: think either of us could have predicted. After the twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen election, the folks working on this actually convinced President Trump,

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Speaker 1: and on December twenty first, twenty eighteen, he signed it

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Speaker 1: into law. Was that a surprise to you?

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Speaker 2: You know, I never in a million years would have

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Speaker 2: thought that President Trump, who ran on American carnage, would

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Speaker 2: have signed the most transformative criminal justice bill into law.

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Speaker 2: But I got to give you and the other signatories

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Speaker 2: of Right on Crime a lot of credit because we

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Speaker 2: on the left, and I say this as a Democrat,

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Speaker 2: you know, we've been at this fight for decades, just

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Speaker 2: working and working, trying to turn back some of these

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Speaker 2: archaic sentences. We've been talking about the rights of the

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Speaker 2: individuals and their freedom and their dignity. And I don't

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Speaker 2: think it was until my then boss Van Jones met

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Speaker 2: you knew that we knew there was another side to this. Right,

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Speaker 2: there's the conservative argument for criminal justice reform, and that

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Speaker 2: is that our prison system has ballooned. It's become an

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Speaker 2: incredibly expensive system that at the time was failing. Right

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Speaker 2: sixty eight percent, we were spending billions of dollars a

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Speaker 2: year on a system that was failing sixty eight percent

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Speaker 2: of the time because people would come home and then

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Speaker 2: they would end up back in prison, and there was

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Speaker 2: no transparency in the system and no accountability. And it

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Speaker 2: wasn't until we started working with you and other conservatives

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Speaker 2: that we understood we were missing half the arguments out

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Speaker 2: there there for reform.

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Speaker 1: I've been recruited really as early as the mid nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighties by Chuck Colson, who had gone to jail as

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Speaker 1: part of the Watergate process, and himself, I think had

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Speaker 1: been transformed, created a prison ministry program and was a passionate,

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Speaker 1: passionate advocate that you can save people, they can change

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Speaker 1: their lives, and that one of our jobs is to

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Speaker 1: lock up those who are guilty, but another one of

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Speaker 1: our jobs is to help people who have turned their

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Speaker 1: life around to have a chance to lead a full life.

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Speaker 1: By the way, we should say. In addition to President

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Speaker 1: Trump signing it, which was a big moment, the US

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Speaker 1: Senate passed it eighty seven to twelve and the House

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Speaker 1: passed it three fifty eight to thirty six. So clearly

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Speaker 1: this was an idea whose time had come. But Jessica,

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Speaker 1: can you walk us through for a minute, what exactly

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Speaker 1: is the First Step Act and how does it work?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, the First Step Act was, as you said,

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Speaker 2: bipartisan legislation passed in twenty eighteen that addressed both prison

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Speaker 2: conditions and some sentencing reforms. Essentially, a group of Republicans

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Speaker 2: had been working on legislation back in twenty thirteen that

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Speaker 2: became bipartisan legislation. There was a bill passed in twenty

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Speaker 2: thirteen that made some changes to the prison system, but

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Speaker 2: it certainly didn't go far enough. In twenty fifteen twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: we worked on another bipartisan bill, but we were unable

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Speaker 2: to get it done under President Obama. I was shocked

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Speaker 2: when I heard from Jared Kushner in twenty eighteen that

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Speaker 2: Republicans still wanted to get this bill done, and specifically

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Speaker 2: that the Trump administration was interested. But there were some

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Speaker 2: very very obvious areas that needed reform. For one, the

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Speaker 2: conditions that people were living in inside of prisons. We

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Speaker 2: still had women who were being shackled while they were

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Speaker 2: in labor in our federal prisons, which is just unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: We still had women who were being denied the hygiene

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Speaker 2: produce they needed every month. We still had people who

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Speaker 2: were living in there, like I said before, with no hope.

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Speaker 2: So we created an earned time system where if you're

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Speaker 2: taking life changing classes and taking accountability for what you

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Speaker 2: did and really working on yourself, you're able to earn

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Speaker 2: some time off of your sentences. We also made sure

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Speaker 2: that everybody coming home would have an ID when they

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Speaker 2: come home. You can't get very far in society today

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Speaker 2: without a basic form of identification. We had people who

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Speaker 2: were telling us stories about having to smuggle their prison

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Speaker 2: ID out because they didn't have their birth certificate, or

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Speaker 2: their Social Security card or their driver's license. So there

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Speaker 2: were some very basic changes inside, including a risk assessment

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Speaker 2: tool that has been implemented, and then there were also

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Speaker 2: some sentencing reform changes like the one that Adam benefited from,

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Speaker 2: and then looking at some of the drug sentences, you

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Speaker 2: had people who were being sentenced to twenty five or

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Speaker 2: life for drug crimes. You'll remember Miss Alice, who changed

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Speaker 2: everybody's mind on this issue when President Trump granted her

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Speaker 2: a commutation and the rest of the world watched her

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Speaker 2: run across the street as a sixty three year old

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Speaker 2: grandmother who had served over twenty years for basically answering

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Speaker 2: the phone and telling somebody where they could buy drugs.

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Speaker 2: We had so many cases like Miss Alice that made

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Speaker 2: such a strong and compelling reason for why people should

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Speaker 2: be allowed that second chance. And then we also expanded

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Speaker 2: the compassionate release, and we've seen a lot of people

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Speaker 2: come home, particularly during COVID from the expanded compassionate release.

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Speaker 2: You've seen some judges some circuits even using it in

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Speaker 2: cases where the person, if they were sentenced today, would

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Speaker 2: not have gotten the same sentence. So if you had

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Speaker 2: somebody who at the time was sentenced to fifty years,

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Speaker 2: but today under the new laws, they would have been

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Speaker 2: sentenced to fifteen. In some circuits, judges have been willing

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Speaker 2: to revisit those cases and re sentence the person.

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Speaker 1: Hi, this is newt If you live in California or

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Speaker 1: you happen to be visiting, I'd like to invite you

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Speaker 1: to my two upcoming book events in January. Killis and

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Speaker 1: I are both going to be at the Richard Nixon

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Speaker 1: Library and Museum in yor Belunda on January ninth at

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Speaker 1: seven pm. Tickets are available now at Nixonfoundation dot org.

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Speaker 1: And Klist and I are both going to be at

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Speaker 1: the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation and Institute in Simi Valley

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Speaker 1: on January tenth at five pm. Tickets are available now

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Speaker 1: at Reaganfoundation dot org. I hope you'll join us for

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Speaker 1: a book signing and a talk and a chance to

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Speaker 1: get together and kick off the new year at the

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Speaker 1: Nixon Library and the Reagan Library. Jessica, I think it

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Speaker 1: would really help people understand that when people get out

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Speaker 1: of prison but then are sent back, a process which

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Speaker 1: is called recidivism, that there is a huge gap between

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Speaker 1: what happens with people who've had no preparation, have no

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Speaker 1: real experience, are not prepared and get released and end

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Speaker 1: up going back, and people who having gone through the

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Speaker 1: First Step Act are in fact prepared and therefore have

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Speaker 1: a much smaller likelihood of going back. Could you give

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Speaker 1: us some sense of how big the difference is.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So, under the First Step Act, according to the

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Speaker 2: data that was published in twenty twenty two, about twenty

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Speaker 2: nine nine and forty six people have been released. Now,

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Speaker 2: normally we'd be looking at a recidivism rate of about

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Speaker 2: forty six percent. However, under the First Step Act, the

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Speaker 2: people who've been coming home. Under the First Step Act,

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Speaker 2: the recidivism rate is twelve point five percent, so just

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Speaker 2: much much lower than it normally would be. And in

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Speaker 2: that twelve point five percent, we know that about four

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Speaker 2: percent of those aren't people committing new crimes. There are

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Speaker 2: people that are getting tripped up on technical violations of

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Speaker 2: their supervision. So overall it's only about eight percent that

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Speaker 2: are committing new crimes compared to the previous forty six percent.

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Speaker 1: The First Step Act is deeply committed to encouraging people

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Speaker 1: to improve themselves as a way of earning a better future.

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Speaker 1: Can you walk through a little bit about if you're

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Speaker 1: an inmate, what can you do to improve yourself to

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Speaker 1: prepare yourself to go back out into society That fits

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Speaker 1: into the reforms of the First Step Act.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, one of the things that we know is

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Speaker 2: like the antidote to recidivism is education. So if a

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Speaker 2: person gets their education, that obviously opens up a lot

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Speaker 2: more job opportunities for them. So I would say that

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Speaker 2: the education provisions being able to get real programming inside

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Speaker 2: and access to a real education is probably the most

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Speaker 2: beneficial and probably a part of the reason why we've

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Speaker 2: already seen a drop in recidivism. In fact, First Step

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Speaker 2: Act has not only proved to be the most transformative

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Speaker 2: criminal justice reform, it's also proven to be the toughest

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Speaker 2: on crime reform we've seen, because you're not seeing crime

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Speaker 2: when people come home. In fact, the recidivism rate has

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Speaker 2: dropped significantly by about forty percent down to twelve point

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Speaker 2: five percent of people who are coming home under First

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Speaker 2: Step Act. And that's because they're getting access to these

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Speaker 2: life changing programs. They can take anger management, they can

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Speaker 2: get their mental health issues addressed, they can get substance

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Speaker 2: abuse classes, parenting classes, they get access to education, they

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Speaker 2: get skills training so that they can be placed in

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Speaker 2: a skilled job. There's an expanded workforce within the prison,

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Speaker 2: and they're more volunteers who are coming inside of the prison,

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Speaker 2: so people can build up their network a bit and

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Speaker 2: get jobs when they come home.

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Speaker 1: This was one of the key things I think that

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Speaker 1: Chuck Holson used to argue that if you give people

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Speaker 1: hope and if you give people an opportunity to rediscover

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Speaker 1: their faith, that they become different people, that you're not

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Speaker 1: dealing with the person who got sentenced, and that therefore

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Speaker 1: you have to really think long and hard about what's

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Speaker 1: the appropriate treatment for somebody who has genuinely been changed

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Speaker 1: in significant ways. Adam, you're one of the examples. You

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Speaker 1: were twenty years into a two hundred and thirteen year

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Speaker 1: sentence when the First Step Act was passed. How did

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Speaker 1: that affect your life?

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Speaker 3: Pretty significantly? Obviously, I followed the reforms very very closely,

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Speaker 3: and going all the way back to when President Obama

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Speaker 3: entered office, and there was talk of reform that inspired

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Speaker 3: some hope for the future. And I hope everyone understand

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Speaker 3: that individuals who were incarcerated follow these issues very very closely,

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Speaker 3: and even the talk of reform sparked a sense of

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Speaker 3: hope on the inside. For me, I was able to

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Speaker 3: carve out space that I needed to really work on myself,

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Speaker 3: but I also had a community that supported me on

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Speaker 3: the inside. My institution was a little different than the

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Speaker 3: average institution, where I had administrators who were supportive of

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Speaker 3: high level programming like Jessica was talking about. But we

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Speaker 3: also had access to a local university which gave us

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Speaker 3: that higher ed component. So for me, those became transformative

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Speaker 3: components to allow me to do the work on myself.

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Speaker 3: But I watched it transform the lives of all of

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Speaker 3: the men who were incarcerated with me, and as we

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Speaker 3: went on this journey, a multi year journey of improving ourselves,

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Speaker 3: on working toward a future that we envisioned for ourselves.

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Speaker 3: As that legislation was progressing, I could envision myself on

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Speaker 3: the outside and I believed that at some point I

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Speaker 3: was going to get an opportunity. I was going to

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Speaker 3: get that second chance. So even though it did not

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Speaker 3: yet exist, I did the work as if that day

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Speaker 3: was coming. So when it finally did arrive, I was

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Speaker 3: well prepared. I was well prepared not only because of

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Speaker 3: the work that I did in my own life, but

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Speaker 3: because I had the good fortune to be part of

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Speaker 3: a community where I helped countless other men develop their

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Speaker 3: plans for release, and in doing so, it refined mine.

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Speaker 3: So I am an anomaly in the preparation component, having

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Speaker 3: been able to really develop a plan prepare for that release,

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Speaker 3: so that when it came, I was fully prepared to

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Speaker 3: walk out that door, to start a new life, to

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Speaker 3: rejoin not only my family, but my larger community. And

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Speaker 3: I say that there is so much potential that resides

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Speaker 3: behind these walls. And as you said, when people find faith.

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Speaker 3: When they received the education and support that they need

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Speaker 3: and they have hope for a future outside of prison,

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Speaker 3: then they begin to live into their potential and amazing

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Speaker 3: things happen. And that's where we get this reduction in

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Speaker 3: recidivism that we are already seeing the results of that,

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Speaker 3: because it's been many years in the making.

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Speaker 1: Let me go back for just a second. When you

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Speaker 1: talked about the local university, how did that work? I mean,

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Speaker 1: did they come to you? Did you go to them?

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Speaker 1: How did that process work?

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Speaker 3: The local university? There was a criminal justice professor by

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Speaker 3: the name of doctor Tony Gasque out of the criminal

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Speaker 3: justice department at the University of Pittsburgh at Bradford, and

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Speaker 3: he personally had developed a relationship with the facility where

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Speaker 3: the warden had allowed him to come in to bring

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Speaker 3: some college students in. Many of those students ended up

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Speaker 3: being officers, so it was a long standing relationship and

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Speaker 3: for me and others who were part of that core group,

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Speaker 3: we gravitated immediately towards that the opportunity to receive that education.

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Speaker 3: We eagerly accepted it and encouraged an expansion of it,

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Speaker 3: and for a period we were able to get the

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Speaker 3: professor and other professors coming in on a pretty regular basis,

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Speaker 3: and we watched their presence transform the culture in that

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Speaker 3: facility to where it became an environment that was more

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Speaker 3: conducive to learning to introspective analysis, and it impacted not

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Speaker 3: only us, but the staff all of the people who

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Speaker 3: worked there. Ultimately, they saw the benefit of it as well.

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Speaker 1: When you got out of prison under the First Step Act,

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Speaker 1: how was it different this time from the previous time

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Speaker 1: when you get out of prison?

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Speaker 3: Great question, As I had mentioned at the onset. When

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Speaker 3: I came out of prison at twenty one years old,

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Speaker 3: having spent three and a half years in a state facility,

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Speaker 3: I had received my GED, spent a little bit of

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Speaker 3: time in a vocational shop, but I didn't have a

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Speaker 3: plan and there was no one there to support me.

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Speaker 3: And if I'm being honest about it, there was some

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Speaker 3: serious underlying issues, substance abuse, some mental health. And I

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Speaker 3: share this that my mother picked me up at twenty

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Speaker 3: one years old and as we were driving away from

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Speaker 3: the facility, tears just began to stream down my face

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Speaker 3: and she looked over at me and said, what's wrong

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Speaker 3: with you? And that was my mother, not knowing how

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Speaker 3: to deal with what she was seeing, and for my part,

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do with those emotions that

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Speaker 3: release the underlying issues that had not been addressed, So

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Speaker 3: I went right back to the same substance abuse, to

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Speaker 3: the same issues that ultimately led me to prison in

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Speaker 3: the first time. Difference being while I was in for

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Speaker 3: that twenty years, I received not only the education on

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Speaker 3: how to improve my mental health, I had supportive services,

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Speaker 3: but that environment that I had was very different than

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Speaker 3: what was at that time offered to the masses. The

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Speaker 3: First Step Act has now made those resources widely available,

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Speaker 3: and that's why we're seeing such a dramatic impact on

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Speaker 3: the system.

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Speaker 1: So when you did get out under the First Step Act,

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Speaker 1: was it easier to get a job?

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Speaker 3: Yes, But I'm going to say not without challenge. For myself,

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Speaker 3: having been in for twenty years, there were some obvious

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Speaker 3: difficulties that I had adjusting to say the technology. Two

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Speaker 3: decades is a long time. Things had changed pretty dramatically.

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Speaker 3: And had it not been for my wife, who was

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Speaker 3: with me for the final eleven years of that twenty

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Speaker 3: year sentence, to literally hold my hand and walk me

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Speaker 3: through that process and give me all of them emotional

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Speaker 3: and physical support that I needed. I probably would have

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Speaker 3: had even more difficult time. I can't imagine how people

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Speaker 3: navigate that themselves, but employers, for the most part, because

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Speaker 3: of the skill set that I had developed on the inside,

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Speaker 3: because of the self confidence I had developed, I was

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Speaker 3: much better equipped to walk in and to interview and

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Speaker 3: to speak to employers than I had been at any

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Speaker 3: time prior.

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Speaker 1: So did you meet your wife while you were in prison?

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Speaker 1: I did? Yes, must have led an unusual dating pattern.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it definitely was. And I'll say this honestly, it

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Speaker 3: was the best thing that ever could have happened, because

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Speaker 3: our relationship had to be built on such strong communication

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Speaker 3: and cultivated nurtured over the years. Our sense of intimacy.

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Speaker 3: My being able to hold her hand in a visit

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Speaker 3: for a few minutes was so significant that that just

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Speaker 3: created such a strong bond. And she is pretty amazing.

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Speaker 3: She's a remarkable woman. So I would not be who

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Speaker 3: I am today without her. And that's why family support

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Speaker 3: is such an essential element of individuals being able to

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Speaker 3: successfully transition back into their families and in their communities.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think now seven thousand people have been

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Speaker 2: relocated to a different prison to meet the five hundred

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Speaker 2: miles requirement in First Step Act. So when possible, they

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Speaker 2: have a requirement to make sure people are within five

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Speaker 2: hundred miles of their families so that they can be

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Speaker 2: near them. And I just saw the statistic with seven

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Speaker 2: thousand people have already been moved.

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Speaker 1: There's a conscious effort to retain some kind of capability

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Speaker 1: to still be bonded beyond the prison and to give

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Speaker 1: you a chance to sustain some kind of relationship. Is

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Speaker 1: that a fair statement, Jessica.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we know that when you are close to your

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Speaker 2: support structure, you are more likely to succeed. Right if

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Speaker 2: we send somebody off to Siberia and they don't get

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Speaker 2: to talk on the phone because phone calls are expensive,

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Speaker 2: and you know they're writing letters home, but these days

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Speaker 2: people are so used to, you know, just texting somebody back.

440
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: Maybe sending an email is a lot, or it's expensive,

441
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: or their family can't come visit them. I literally met

442
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 2: somebody whose children hadn't seen her father in eight years

443
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: because of where he was incarcerated and them not being

444
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 2: able to afford flights. So this is going to prove

445
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: to be very beneficial to also lowering recidivism in the

446
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: long run, and making sure people have that support they

447
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: need when they come home.

448
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: The Reform Alliance has evolved in ways that have made

449
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: it a very major impact in terms of trying to

450
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: reform things. Could you describe for us what the Reform

451
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: Alliance is doing.

452
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: Yes, So, the Reform Alliance is actually focused on probation

453
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 2: and parole. It started about a month after we had

454
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: passed the First Step Act and watch it get signed

455
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: into law, by the way, which almost didn't happen, not

456
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: because President Trump had any doubts about it, but because

457
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: the government almost shut down the day of the signing.

458
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: About forty five minutes later the government shut down, So

459
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: we got in there just by the skin of our teeth.

460
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: But right afterwards, the month after, Reform Alliance was founded

461
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: to focus on supervision, so parole, probation, community supervision. Because

462
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: while there are two million people who are incarcerated in

463
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: this country, there's four and a half million people who

464
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: are on some form of supervision. And like most people,

465
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: you know, I initially thought, okay, well, at least they're

466
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 2: home with their families, so what if they have to

467
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: meet with a probation officer at least they're home with

468
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: their families, but they're subjected to a lot of conditions

469
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: that don't really make a lot of sense. For example,

470
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: if I have a felony and I'm on supervision, federal supervision,

471
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: I can't go to my mom's house and have Christmas dinner.

472
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: If my brother also has a felony, I couldn't be

473
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: in the presence of alcohol. I can't open a bank account.

474
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: I can't even take out a loan to purchase a

475
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: car to get to work. And by the way, that's

476
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: a real case that we found. Without getting permission from

477
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: my probation officer, I can't leave my county to get

478
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: over to another county just to work or pick up

479
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: my child from school. So there's so many onerous conditions,

480
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: and when you violate one of those conditions, it's called

481
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: a technical violation. So a new crime has not been committed.

482
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: You've simply been late to a meeting with your probation officer,

483
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: or you know, not met one of these other conditions,

484
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: and you can be sent back to prison, which is

485
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: just astounding to me. In fact, I was shocked. The

486
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: other day a report came out from the Council on

487
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: Criminal Justice showing that of the twelve percent of people

488
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: who came home under First Step Act, which again is

489
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: historically low, about forty percent lower than anything we've ever

490
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: seen before. But of that twelve percent, four percent of

491
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 2: those folks have gotten back to prison just for breaking

492
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 2: one of these technical violations, one of these conditions. So

493
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: Reform Alliance is focused on changing that. In fact, we

494
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: have a federal bill which I hope will be the

495
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: next bipartisan bill that's signed into law.

496
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: But you also do a surprising amount of work at

497
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: the state level.

498
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: Yes. In fact, just on Friday, I had the honor

499
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: of standing next to Governor Shapiro as he signed a

500
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: bill in Pennsylvania into law that reforms the probation system

501
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: there and some of these technical violations. Gives people real

502
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: incentives to earn their way off of probation sooner, and

503
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: gives them an opportunity to have a probation conference so

504
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: that they can make a case to the judge that

505
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: they deserve to come off of probation once other criteria

506
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: have been met. But that's the eighteenth bill that we've

507
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 2: passed in about eleven states, creating pathways for over eight

508
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: hundred thousand people to get off of supervision.

509
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: And if people really want to understand how persistent you

510
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: are personally and how persistent the reformalized is you worked

511
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: in the Pennsylvania bill for three or four years? Didn't

512
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: you four and a half?

513
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: But who's counting.

514
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: What I'm impressed with is the initial breakthroughs actually came

515
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: in places like Mississippi, Georgia, Texas, places you wouldn't have expected,

516
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: and they led the way then to make it much

517
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: easier to pass the federal bill, and the federal bills

518
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: now create an environment where you can go back to

519
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: states for sort of the next wave as well learning.

520
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: I think you know, I'm very solid conservative. I'm very

521
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: much in favor of being very very tough on crime,

522
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: but I'm against being stupid and a lot of the

523
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: time it's one thing to say, for example, with violent criminals, etc.

524
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: That there are some people who have records where you

525
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: clearly are not going to let them out, but they're

526
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: an amazing number of people who may have made a mistake,

527
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: but who learn and who change. And this was part

528
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: of Chuck Colson's whole argument in creating a prison faith

529
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: based reform system, which was the beginning of the conservative

530
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: side of this movement was that people can in fact

531
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: grow and evolve and change, and then you want to

532
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: find a way to reintegrate them into society because it

533
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: makes us a stronger and a better country rather than

534
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: keeping them trapped. And I think what you've been doing

535
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: at the state level where people learn from each other,

536
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: and there are different little things that can be done

537
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: here and there that one state may be doing it right,

538
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: other states can learn from that state. Ultimately, the Feds

539
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: can learn from what happens at the state. And it

540
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: takes something like the Reform Alliance to stay focused on

541
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: this and to keep working.

542
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: On them absolutely. And you know, ninety five percent of

543
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: the people who are in our prisons are coming home

544
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: one day, and it's up to us to make sure

545
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: that they're coming home with the opportunity to be a

546
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: good neighbor to you, that they're coming home with an

547
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: opportunity to work. They're coming home with an opportunity to

548
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,239
Speaker 2: move on and be a part of a community and

549
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: even give back the way that Adam and his wife are.

550
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: So it's up to us to make sure that these

551
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: things are in place. If we just put people in

552
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: cages and throw away the key, and then suddenly one

553
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: day they have to come home and figure out how

554
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: to reintegrate on their own. And we keep them out

555
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: of housing and out of jobs, and out of mental

556
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: health services and out of education, we can't expect them

557
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: to succeed. So criminal justice reform is really more public

558
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: safety reform, right, We're really trying to make sure that

559
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: we're keeping the community safe by giving people tools to succe.

560
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: Seed Jessica and Adam, I want to thank both of

561
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: you for joining me to discuss the sort of anniversary.

562
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: It's a remarkable time and five years later, it's clearly

563
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: had a huge positive impact. I want to encourage people

564
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: to go to Reformalliance dot com where they can learn

565
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: just about the first STEPACK, but also about the other

566
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: kind of projects that the Reform Alliance is doing. And

567
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: I want to thank both of you for being with

568
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: us to have this discussion.

569
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us on and for

570
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: all of your work.

571
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you.

572
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Jessica Jackson and Adam Clausener.

573
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: You can learn more about Reform Alliance on our show

574
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Gang

575
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: with three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan.

576
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show

577
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team

578
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: English three sixty. If you've been enjoying nuts World, I

579
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us

580
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others

581
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of

582
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: newts World consign up from my three freeweekly columns at

583
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: Gingwishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This

584
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: is neuts World