1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:07,159 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. Our recent episode on the Western World's introduction 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: to the o copy had some parallels to our past 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: episode on socialite Ruth Harkness, who was the first person 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: to bring a panda into the United States, so it 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: seemed like a good Saturday classic. This episode originally came 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: out on June nin so enjoy Welcome to Stuff You 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class, a production of I Heart Radio. Hello, 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: and Welcome to the podcast. I'm calling Fry and I'm 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: Tracy Wilson. And Uh, this is actually a topic that 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: I've had on my witch list almost since the beginning 11 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: of when Louis came on. I know, I said, I said, 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: I'd think in the last couple of weeks that I 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: have been trying to go back to some of those 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: original ones. I was really excited about marcum In, but 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: this is one that I really wrestled with because the 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: material is a little bit emotionally difficult for me, for 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: like sort of silly, crazy animal lady reasons. It's the 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: story of one of those odd ambitions that only uh, 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: the privileged are really afforded. But in the nineteen thirties 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: and New York socialite had this dream, uh and that 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: dream was to be the first person to capture a 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: panda from Asia and returned to the Western world with it. 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: And it's a u As I said, it's something I 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: wrestle with a little bit. Um. I've been very open 25 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: that I am an animal person and I struggle with 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: the concept of animals and captivity. Uh. And I'm sure 27 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: many of our listeners have similar feelings. I see both 28 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: sides of the issue. I volunteered with zoos and aquariums before, 29 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: and I really love it. Um. You know, captive animals 30 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: in accredited facilities increased public awareness and they provide a 31 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: situation where the animals can be studied and they can 32 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: bolster conservation efforts. But you know, there's part of me 33 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: that has to acknowledge that that is not the natural 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: state for those animals. So, as I said, I struggle 35 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: with it, probably other people do too. And this is 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: an I kind of touchstone in the development of animals 37 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: and captivity in the United States. Uh. And so, for example, 38 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: the first time a Westerner even saw a panda, it 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: was not alive. It was a pelpone display in a 40 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: private home, and that was back in eighteen sixty nine. 41 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: And once UH Europe and the US kind of got 42 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: ahold of this knowledge. It sort of fed into a 43 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: time when exploring other lands and kind of a little 44 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: bit of a conquering mentality was going on, and particularly 45 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: in the realm of animals, there was a lot of 46 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: We're discovering new animals all the time. Well, there was 47 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: also a strain of orientalism at the time, yes, and 48 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: because pandas are native to China, that definitely fed the 49 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: fire of it. Uh and it really ended up kicking 50 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: off an obsession in the Western world with finding these 51 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: black and white bears that seemed so exotic. And in 52 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: the early half of the twentieth century, one woman who 53 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: we will talk about today, this person I spoke of 54 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: at the very beginning, really catapulted the giant panda onto 55 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: the world stage and she made the species of media 56 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: darling to some degree. So we're going to talk about 57 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: Ruth Harkness. So Ruth Maccombs Harkness was not born into money. 58 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: She married into it. She actually came from pretty humble origins. 59 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: Her father was a carpenter and her mother was a seamstress, 60 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: and they made their home in Titusville, Pennsylvania. She was 61 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: born on September twenty one, and she had three siblings. 62 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: The conservative atmosphere of the home life of the Macombs 63 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: was not really something that Ruth was comfortable with. She 64 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: had a little bit of edge to her. She knew 65 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: there was more in the world that she wanted to discover. Uh. 66 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: She became an avid reader as a consequence, and UH. 67 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: The entry in her senior yearbook under her picture kind 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: of is a great encapsulation of what she was like 69 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: at this time, and it says, quote, Ruth is rather 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: hard to get acquainted with, but after you know her, 71 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: you find that she has many good qualities and is 72 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: a friend worth having. I started the love It sounds 73 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: like something Mary Poppins would say about someone who is cult. 74 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: I just really really loved that. Ruth tried out college 75 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: at the University of Colorado, but she only lasted a 76 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: semester before heading to Cuba briefly to work as an 77 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: English teacher. But that really did not suit her either. 78 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: She had a little bit of wanderlust, uh, and she 79 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: was hitting her twenties, of course, just as the jazz 80 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: age was kicking off, and so Ruth moved to New 81 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: York Allegedly. I think with like twenty five bucks to 82 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: her name, and she got a job there as a 83 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: dress designer, and she was basically kind of designing uh 84 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: outfits that kind of were knockoffs of what was going 85 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,239 Speaker 1: on in Paris at the time, and she very quickly 86 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 1: and very fully embraced the decadent aspects of flapper lifestyle. 87 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: She really became a quintessential party girl. She was a 88 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: heavy drinker, She was a heavy smoker, and she had 89 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: this personality though that was really perfectly suited to social 90 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: life and kind of becoming a social darling. Her friends 91 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: described her as very smart and very witty, and she 92 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: had a very commanding presence. She was just sort of 93 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: bubbly and outspoken and kind of the perfect It was 94 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: a perfect time for a girl like her to really 95 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: make her way in the city. During this time, Ruth 96 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: met William Harvest Harkness, Jr. And he was wealthy and 97 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: had a Harvard education. Bill's father was a high powered attorney, 98 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: and the young man was a regular in the society pages. 99 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: The two of them were really drawn together and kind 100 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: of an opposite attract scenario. Yeah, Bill was much quieter 101 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: and more reserved, uh, but he was also really well traveled, 102 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: and he spoke many languages, which really appealed to Ruth. 103 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: And what really bonded them as a couple is that 104 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: they both loved reading, and they would read together in 105 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: trade books and discuss the things that they had read 106 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: in the books. And they also spent a great deal 107 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: of time just pouring over maps and travel journals and 108 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: kind of plotting these grand adventures that they really hoped 109 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: to take together one day. And this was not like 110 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: the fantasy kind of planning of like one day we'll 111 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: run away and spend three months in Paris, like they 112 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: were really planning some trips. Uh. And they ended up 113 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: dating for quite some time before they finally married all 114 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: the uh. Some accounts say they basically were living as 115 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: married people, like they just didn't make it all official 116 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: in paperworky for a while. So, with the financial backing 117 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: of his family money, Bill Harkness made an adventurer slash 118 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: explorer his occupation, which is awesome work if you can 119 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: get it, if you could make it for yourself. Right. 120 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: So this was a time when new animals are being 121 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: discovered all the time, and men like Bill would race 122 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: to be the first to capture and sometimes kill one 123 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, it was a you know, kind of 124 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: that that sense of adventure we've talked about before. It 125 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: was what fed a lot of like the Everest expeditions, 126 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: but like being the first to do the thing, to 127 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: see this animal, to capture this animal. There was a 128 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: lot of like a claim that went with that. And 129 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: Bill had just had a successful expedition to capture a 130 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: komodo dragon, which I would love to do more research 131 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: on that trip specifically, because those things are poisonous and 132 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: me and not delightful. They do not want hugs. But he, 133 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, was sort of chuffed with his success from that, 134 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: and he decided that he was going to be the 135 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: first man to capture a giant panda. And this was 136 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: in ninety four when he kind of mounted this plan, 137 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: and so he made a trip to China, but he 138 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: got a little blockaded. He ended up spending the next 139 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: year there in China just waiting for the proper permit 140 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: paperwork to all be approved, because it was not an 141 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: easy thing to just stroll in and put your team 142 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: together and go. But unfortunately, before his expedition could actually 143 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: get underway and all of that paperwork could happen, Bill 144 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: became very ill, uh, and he was treated for a while, 145 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: but he ended up dying on February eighteenth of nineteen 146 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: thirty six in Shanghai, and his illness, which was not 147 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: initially accurately diagnosed, turned out to be throat cancer. So 148 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: he had basically been withering away while he waited for 149 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: these documents. Although his missives back to Ruth, we're all 150 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: very peppy and upbeat. So when Bill died, Ruth inherited 151 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: his money, and she also inherited the expedition equipment that 152 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: he had already assembled in China. So, in a move 153 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: that completely shocked all of her socialite friends Ruth, Ruth 154 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: decided that instead of settling into life as a wealthy widow, 155 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: she would travel to China and pick up where Bill 156 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: left off. Yeah, this was really, uh a wild move. 157 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean she was basically saying, all that money and 158 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: I inherited, I'm not going to live off of it. 159 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to spend it all to go to China 160 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: and do what my husband was trying to do. Uh. 161 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: And you know, this certainly seems like a crazy move 162 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: for a woman who fully embraced creature comforts. I mean, 163 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: she was very open that she liked sort of living 164 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: her spoiled life in New York and like she wouldn't 165 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: walk up block if she could take a cab. And uh, 166 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: so it seemed very surprising too many people for her 167 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: to just go, no, I'm going to go do that 168 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: trip my husband was on. But really what motivated her 169 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: was likely just a very deep grief because, as we said, 170 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: it was an opposite attract scenario. And Ruth and Bill 171 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: at this point had been together for a decade and 172 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: they were very happily married and very close partners. They 173 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: were basically best friends. But before we get to Ruth 174 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: traveling off to China, uh, we're gonna take a quick 175 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: ad from our sponsor. If that's cool with Tracy, let's 176 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: do it. Most of what we knew about Ruth's first 177 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: journey is through her letters to her best friend, Hazel Perkins, 178 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: who was nicknamed Perky, and so once Ruth arrived in Shanghai, 179 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: she really took a different approach to the mission than 180 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: was customary and certainly different than the way Bill had 181 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: handled things. Whereas normally Western explorers would go into a 182 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: new place like this on these adventure and discovery expeditions, 183 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: with a team of fellow Westerners, and they would lay 184 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: out their plan and follow it. Ruth got rid of 185 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: all of the men that he had already hired and 186 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: brought on, and she opted to seek out locals as 187 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: her guides and her employees, at least almost locals. She 188 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: ended up hiring Quentin Young, and he was a young 189 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: Chinese American college student as her god. She said of him, 190 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: when Quentin Young consented to take charge of my expedition, 191 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: the obstacles that he had surrounded me began to disappear. 192 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: In fact, the Chinese wall of it can't be done, 193 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: crumpled like the walls of Jericho. Yeah, this was not 194 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: the Young family's first time assisting Americans with panda expeditions. 195 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: Quentin's younger brother, Jack had actually led Teddy Roosevelt's sons 196 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: on a giant panda hunting expedition in nine and in 197 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: this case, the goal which was achieved was strictly to 198 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: hunt the animal. With Jack's assistants, the Roosevelt boys shot 199 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: and killed a giant panda and returned home with it 200 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: as a hunting trophy, giving them the dubious honor of 201 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: being the first Americans to kill a panda. Quentin knew 202 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: the areas of Tibet where their travels were going to 203 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: take them, and his guidance in this expedition really can't 204 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: be understated. He was fluent in Chinese as well as English, 205 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: and he was able to handle virtually every logistical need 206 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: of Mrs harkness ambitious plan. Yeah. I mean, this is 207 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: a woman who she uh you know, was used to 208 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: getting everything she wanted, and he kind of made that 209 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: happen for her again in China. Uh And Harkness and 210 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: Young left Shanghai on September twenty six and nineteen thirty six, 211 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: and they traveled up the Yancey River for several weeks 212 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: before reaching cheng Do, which is the capital of Sichuan Province. 213 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: And there they hired a complement of servants to carry loads, 214 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: and they also hired a cook before they started their 215 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: journey into the Tibetan highlands. What they wanted to do 216 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: was to capture a baby panda. Harkness carried a supply 217 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: of items that she thought would help her care for 218 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: a baby panda, so she had nursing bottles and dry milk. 219 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: Through her letters to Perkey, she stioned that no one 220 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: really knew how to care for a panda, but she 221 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: seemed enthusiastic and confident about her plan. And her idea 222 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: to acquire an infant was actually another departure from the 223 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: usual approach. Previous expeditions to capture a panda uh and 224 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: ones that were you know, being mounted around the same 225 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: time always intended to bring back an adult. But that 226 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: was really quite problematic for a number of reasons. Uh. First, 227 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: no matter how cute pandas are, uh, they are wild bears. 228 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: They do not want to be disturbed. They do not 229 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: want your hugs anymore than the komodo dragons do. Uh. 230 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: The equipment for the capture would also be extremely cumbersome, 231 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: so they would have to have porters to carry chains 232 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: like heavy chains and traps and cages for an adult animal. 233 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: And additionally, just transporting an adult would also mean that 234 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: you had to deal with an adult panda's appetite, which 235 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: would have included carrying a great deal of bamboo back 236 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: along with it just to sustain it through the journey. 237 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: Trying to get a cub instead solved most of these problems. Yeah, 238 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: smaller pack it, less fuss, It was not so much 239 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: bamboo portage, No, not at all. Uh So the team 240 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: traveled up to thirty miles a day on foot, and 241 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: sometimes the temperatures got incredibly high, north of a hundred 242 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit, and you would think that, uh, someone who 243 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: had been living in privilege for so long would really 244 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: struggle with it. But surprisingly Ruth apparently did extremely well 245 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: on the journey. She was just driven and she you know, 246 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: hoofed it all those miles. And sometimes when she would 247 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: get tired, the porters would kind of make a hammock 248 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: style chair for her that she could rest in for 249 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: a little while and they would carry her for a bit, 250 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: but mostly she did it under her own steerage there um, 251 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 1: so she really you know, kind of stepped up to 252 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: the bar. And also during this journey, at some point 253 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: Harkness and her guide, Quentin Young, became romantically involved. This 254 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: group was eventually met by an elderly Tibetan man. He 255 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: was named Loud Saying, and he said that the word 256 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: had reached him that a Western woman was looking for 257 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: a panda. He said he knew where to find them, 258 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: and he offered his services. So he and his son 259 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: in law joined the group as they headed into the 260 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: bamboo forest. Yeah, when she I read an article and 261 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: one link to Injean notes, and it's kind of her 262 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: relaying her story. It's much briefer than any of the 263 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: other books to this journalist, and it really is very 264 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: sort of um like a Curasawa film, like this elderly 265 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: Tibetan man just kind of wanders out of the fog 266 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: one day and it's like, I will help you find 267 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: the pandas. And they have a picture in that article 268 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: of an elderly Tibetan man. So I presume it is 269 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: in fact accurate and non embellishment, but it seems so surreal. 270 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: I thought I thought you were going to say there 271 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: were seven different versions of what happened. No, not quite. 272 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: In November, they set up four different camps, and they 273 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: were guided to do so by information that pandas don't 274 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: make nests and instead have this more nomadic lifestyle. It 275 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: was only a few days before things started to get interesting. 276 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: They heard noises in the forest and then a gunshot. 277 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: The air was full of a really heavy mist, so 278 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: the visibility was almost non existent. Ruth had been extremely 279 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: clear with her team that she did not want anyone 280 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: to shoot the pandas so in the heavy miss they 281 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: really were not sure what was going on. Yeah, she 282 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: describes being very terrified in that moment. She didn't know 283 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: if they were in danger because they did you know. 284 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: This was the time when China was going through some 285 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: upheavals and they did, at one point, you know, encounter 286 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: UM soldiers on their journeys and other you know people, 287 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: So she didn't know if they were walking into something 288 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: dangerous or if someone had shot a panda from her group, 289 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: even though she had asked them not to. But Quentin 290 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: decided that he would explore the area and he uh 291 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: discovered in a hollowed out tree a tiny panda cub 292 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: and he thought that someone may have shot the mother 293 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: and that might have been the shot they heard, although 294 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: that was never established with certainty. Uh Still, he tucked 295 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: the cub into his shirt and he climbed back down 296 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: to the ground with it. The panda was later named 297 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: Sulin after one of Quentin's relatives, which was his sister 298 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: in law, who was quite an explorer in her own 299 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: right UM and would make a great podcast subject in 300 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: the future. She's on my list. Mrs Harkners cared for 301 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: the cub as the team made its way back to 302 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: chong Do and then to Shanghai, and she had no 303 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: experience in caring for babies, so she pretty much went 304 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: with her intuition and did the best that she could. 305 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: The porters that she and Quentin Young had hired two 306 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: turns carrying the baby panda in baskets and between feedings. Um. 307 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: And incidentally, while the panda was given a woman's name, 308 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: it turned out to be a boy. Yeah. Yeah, poor Ruth, 309 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: she you know, had never been a mother, She had 310 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: no experience caring for human babies. So even though she 311 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: was like, I'll just you know, try to do my 312 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: best with the cub as though it's a baby, and 313 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: she's like, wait, I don't know what to do with 314 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: babies either. Well, in panda cubs require some pretty specific care. Yeah, 315 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: and she was making it all up as she went along. Um. 316 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: When she arrived in Shanghai, she did take uh the 317 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: cub to a doctor to have it looked over and 318 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: make sure it was okay, and it apparently passed. So 319 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: getting Sulan out of China proved to be a kind 320 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: of a challenge. The panda cub was seized by customs 321 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: officials in Shanghai and the ship that she had booked 322 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: passage on left port, so Ruth wound up remaining in China, 323 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: choosing to stay in the customs shed with the panda overnight. Yeah, 324 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: she didn't want to leave Sulin. Uh. And the next day, 325 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: Harkness and the panda were finally released and they were 326 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: allowed to, you know, book another passage and head to 327 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: the US. But there was a little bit of paperwork 328 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: juggling because the cub actually ended up listing on the 329 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: customs document as a dog. So there are a few 330 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: theories about whether or not she used her wealth to 331 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: kind of finagle that, or if she just charmed someone, 332 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: or if there was some sort of lucky accident to 333 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: the whole thing, but Sulan was listed as a dog. Uh. 334 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: They traveled back to the US on a luxury ship, 335 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: so Sulian definitely got a taste of the high life. Uh. 336 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: They first landed in San Francisco, and then they went 337 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: on to Chicago from there, and then they finally went 338 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: back to Manhattan. And what's sort of interesting about this 339 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: is that throughout the journey, UH, Ruth kept Sulin with her. 340 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: She basically carried this panda in her arms everywhere she went. 341 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: It rode in cabs with her, it went to restaurants 342 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: with her, and went to parties with her, and then 343 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: when she got to New York, it actually lived with 344 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: her in her New York apartment. So on the one hand, 345 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: this sounds like the case of a rich lady doing 346 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: something eccentric, uh with having an animal as an accessory, 347 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: but really her inclination to keep the baby panda close 348 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: to her was probably pretty beneficial to it. She wanted 349 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: to keep it safe. Although there was significant press and 350 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: exposure surrounding her being the panda Lady. Ruth and Sulin 351 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: were front page news for weeks and wound up on 352 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: numerous radio programs. Yeah, the there have been some that 353 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: have theorized that her keeping it with her all the 354 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: time up against her body kind of gave it the 355 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: necessary body heat, because you know, babies are very sissif 356 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: to bull even for babies to losing their body heat 357 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: very quickly when they're young, so it probably did help 358 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: it that she was clinging with it well. And baby 359 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: pandas also, their digestive systems are not actually built to 360 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: digest anything, and so the mother has to move the 361 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: baby around all the time, So if she was carrying 362 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: the baby panda around, that probably did help. Yeah, she's 363 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: sort of accidentally, whether it was intuition or a lucky accident, 364 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: she ended up doing the right thing to some degree. However, 365 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: Eventually Sulin was handed over to the Brookfield Zoo in Chicago. UH. 366 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: They bought it from Ruth for a little less than 367 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: nine thousand dollars, and while it was on exhibit at Brookfield, 368 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: the panda drew record breaking crowds. In a single day, 369 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: more than fifty three thousand people showed up to see 370 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: this panda cub because it was a completely exotic creature. 371 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: And before we go on uh to talk about Ruth 372 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: and Sulin and some additional adventures, let's have a quick 373 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: ad from our sponsor. Seven Harkness returned to China to 374 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: collect another panda, and this time she was not as 375 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: well repaired. She seemed to be sort of counting on 376 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: a simple repeat of what had happened the last time, 377 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: but things did not work out that way new Uh. 378 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,479 Speaker 1: For one thing, the real sort of dramatic problem was 379 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: that she got back to China and discovered that Quentin 380 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: Young had gotten married in the time that she was 381 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: away and he was not going to be available to 382 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: join her, and I presumed certainly not to continue their 383 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: romantic relationship. Uh, you never know, you never know. I'm 384 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: not judging. I'm just saying it didn't seem to work out. 385 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: Despite the fact that much of her success on her 386 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: first expedition really was due to the guidework of Young, 387 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: she you know, ever a bit obstinate. I mean, this 388 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: is the woman whose friends were telling her you're crazy, 389 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: You're crazy when she first decided on all of this, 390 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: and she kind of dug in her heels as a consequence, 391 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: Like I think she's one of those people that really 392 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,239 Speaker 1: is motivated to do things in spite of what other 393 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: people are telling her. So even though it seems like 394 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: maybe not the smartest thing to go without Quentin Young, 395 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: she was like, I'm going to do it anyway, and 396 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: she did. And she did manage to capture another panda 397 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: cub on her own. This one was named May May, 398 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: and this new cub joined Sulin on exhibit at the 399 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: Brickfield Zoo, but Suland developed pneumonia and died shortly after 400 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: the arrival of the second cub. Yeah, there are actually 401 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: some interesting differences of accounts of what happened to sulin Um. 402 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: I read one and I couldn't corroborate it anywhere, but 403 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: I just want to mention it off hand in case 404 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: any of our listeners go looking and find it and say, 405 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: this isn't what they said. One account said that he 406 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: had actually choked on a piece of food, like on 407 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: a piece of bamboo that had lodged in his throat, 408 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: and that he didn't die from the choking, but then 409 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: he ended up getting a secondary infection from where it 410 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: had either punctured something or um whatever. And one newspaper 411 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: wrote it up as him having died of curiosity, which 412 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: is sort of horrible and I don't know, it just 413 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: rubbed me the wrong way. Uh, But most accounts that 414 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: he died of pneumonia. Uh. There was a third trip 415 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: that Harkness went on in and this really proved to 416 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: be a significant shift in her life and a big 417 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: turning point. She was successful and once again getting a cub, 418 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: but before she could return to the States with it, 419 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: she really experienced a pretty significant change of heart about 420 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: the whole business. So in the two years since she 421 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: captured su Lan all kinds of hunters from all over 422 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: the world had gone on pandaquests of their own, and 423 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: they weren't generally approaching them with the same good intentions 424 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: that had guided Harkness. So on top of that, two 425 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: cubs she had transported previously had died in transit, and 426 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: all this kind of weighed on her, and she was 427 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: contemplating the area where she had captured this third cub, 428 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: which is near where she had had gotten both Sulian 429 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: and Maymay, and Ruth was very troubled when she realized 430 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: that there was a significant, visible to her drop in 431 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: the number of pandas in this bamboo forest and her intent, 432 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: she said when she relayed, sort of what was going 433 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: through her mind at this time was that she had, 434 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: you know, envisioned bringing mating pairs back to the Western 435 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: world and kind of you know, fostering a panda population 436 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: in the US. But things were not going as planned. 437 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: Uh So, instead of bringing another panda to the US 438 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: and risking its life in the process, she made a 439 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: really unusual choice and she trekked back up the mountain 440 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: and returned the baby panda to the wild. So this 441 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: was a really detrimental move for Harkness. She had been 442 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: a moneyed party girl, and at this point she had 443 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: really spent a lot of her fortune on these expeditions, 444 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: So returning the panda was a huge blow to her finances. Yeah, 445 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: she wasn't going to get the publicity and the the 446 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, cost of the panda back. Uh, people were 447 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: probably not going to want to interview her a whole 448 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: bunch about. Oh, I felt bad and put it back. Uh. 449 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: May May was in captivity for about five years, but 450 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: she died very young. In then Ruth, leaving behind her 451 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: trips to China, developed a drinking problem. Yeah, while she 452 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: had been traveling initially in China, Harkness had really come 453 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: to embrace some of the people of the area and 454 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: the concepts of Eastern spirituality. And when she would write 455 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: letters to Perky and other friends, she really talked about 456 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: how she was, you know, kind of getting into um, 457 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: this Eastern spirituality and learning to let go of attachments 458 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: to possessions and people, and how it, you know, had 459 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: given her this sense of peace and really, you know, 460 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: brought a change in her and an ability to sort 461 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: of just be in the world. But the sentiment seems 462 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: like it may have been kind of one of those 463 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: early exposure enthusiasm situations because it did not stay with her. Um. 464 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: You know, when she was back in the States, she 465 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: never seemed to find, you know, that piece that she 466 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: had felt in China, and once she was permanently back 467 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: in New York, she just kind of spiraled downward. On 468 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: July seven, she was found dead in a hotel bathtub, 469 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: and her death was ruled the result of acute alcoholic gastro. 470 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: Ento writis, Yeah, it's a very set end for her. Uh. However, 471 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: she has an interesting legacy. Um. There is a book, 472 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: like it's the book that most people kind of point at, uh, 473 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: written about Harkness, which is called The Lady in the Panda, 474 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: and it's very very fascinating, But in reading it, I 475 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: kind of feel like the author Vicky Croak, and she 476 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: does a really good job with the book, but it 477 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: feels a little bit romanticized to me. She kind of 478 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: paints Harknesses as a hero character and describes her as 479 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: a combination of Myrna Loy and Jane Goodall, which sounds 480 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,239 Speaker 1: really good, but it also sounds pretty idealized. But at 481 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: the same time, she really was an extraordinary woman. So 482 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: I want to be clear that I don't know how 483 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: much of my own sort of perception and filters or 484 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: affecting my read of it. Uh. Well, and she did 485 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: alter the way the public perceived animals. She brought Sulan 486 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,239 Speaker 1: home to New York in her arms instead of at 487 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: least or cage. Do you know, she was treating it 488 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: like a baby instead of like a thing that should 489 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: be put in a box. She asserted that animals had 490 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: individuality and personality just like humans do, but because she 491 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: was not a trained biologist, her message kind of anthropomorphized pandas, 492 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: which is a little problematic. Yeah, this is an issue 493 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: which you know, continues to be discussed and debated. But 494 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: once people perceive an animal as human, like you know, 495 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: the study of them becomes subjective. In the case of 496 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: such a high profile animal, it can be a little 497 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: bit detrimental in terms of the public perception and the 498 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: consequential misconceptions that grow out of it. So pandas are 499 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you would be hard pressed to 500 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: find someone who does not acknowledge that pandas are super cute, 501 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: So it's easy for people to start thinking them as 502 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: cute pets and like these sweet things rather than wild animals. 503 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: But because you said earlier they are wild bears, they 504 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: don't want to be your friend, even though they look 505 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: really chill and adorable when they're rolling around in their 506 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: habitats and zeus, they're not They're not humans and they're 507 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: not pets. They're they're their own thing. Well, and there's 508 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 1: a lot of ongoing debate about anthropomorphism, so these are 509 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: kind of the broad strokes. Anthropomorphism can be detrimental to 510 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: the study of animal cognition, and it can negatively impact 511 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: our body of knowledge about animals. When it comes to 512 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: an endangered animal, and you know, giant pandas are the 513 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: poster animals for endangerment, it has the potential to get 514 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: in the way of conservation efforts. Yeah. I mean most biologists, 515 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: certainly that I have known, they try to stay really 516 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: objective about it, but it's a fight. I mean, I've 517 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: certainly talked to people that have said, like, no, I 518 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: have to constantly remind myself, like, I'm working with an animal. 519 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: This is not a human. I can't assume it's intent 520 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: in its behaviors. And so, you know, if you're always 521 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: struggling with something like that, it's not like you know, 522 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: being able to put a piece of a drop of 523 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: blood on a slide and look at it. You're interpreting 524 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: things that animals are doing, and so it's really hard 525 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: to stay on guard. So that's why anthropomorphism can be 526 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: really tricky. Well, and it's like nature centers that are 527 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,719 Speaker 1: really focused on conservation and preservation, a lot of times 528 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: the animals that are there don't have names. Um. And 529 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, somebody say, what is this fox's name? And 530 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: it's well, it doesn't have a name. It's a wild animal. 531 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: It's not someone's pet. So in a two thousand four census, 532 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: it was estimated that there were only around six hundred 533 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: giant pandas in the wild and about three hundred zoos. 534 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: A lot of biologists actually think these numbers are a 535 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: lot lower, especially in captivity. Female pandas really can have 536 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: trouble conceiving, and their fertility windows are really narrow, sometimes 537 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: as low as twelve to twenty four hours in a year. Yeah, 538 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: they once each spring they become fertile. Um. Tracy actually 539 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: wrote an article for the site about it that I'm 540 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: in a reference in just a minute. Uh. And because 541 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: of their reclusive natures, though almost everything we know about 542 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: these endangered bears is from the study of captive animals. 543 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: So again it's one of those things where they're pros 544 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: and cons to the situation. Uh. You know, sometimes it's 545 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: hard to see an animal in a captive situation, even 546 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: if it's in the best possible, you know, very perfectly 547 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: designed environment. But at the same time, if we didn't 548 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: have them in captivity, we would not know anything about 549 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: them and would not be as informed to you know, 550 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: kind of pursue conservation efforts. So there are two sides 551 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: to that coin. And today giant pandas living in US 552 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: facilities actually still belong to China. It's not a situation 553 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: like Ruth Hardness where she could go get one and 554 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,239 Speaker 1: then sell it here. They are all owned by China. Uh. 555 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: If you see a panda in a US zoo, it 556 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: is leased by the Chinese government, and those leasing fees 557 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: actually go back into a fund that is used to 558 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: further the study and conservation of giant pandas in their 559 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: native home. UH. The Giant Panda Reserve at Woolong has 560 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: been pretty successful at kind of figuring out how to 561 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: breed pandas. It's still tricky. There's still a lot of 562 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: work to be done, but they are getting to a 563 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: point where they feel like they will soon be able 564 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: to reintroduce panda's born in captivity into the wild and 565 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: start bolstering their wild numbers. Having a having a panda 566 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: in a zoo as an enormous financial commitment. It's really 567 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 1: huge any animal in a zoo. I think that's one 568 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: of those things people don't realize when they say, why 569 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: are tickets to this place? Is so expensive and it's like, okay, 570 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: keeping a whale alive for a year across like a 571 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: million dollars. Well, and on top of all, you know, 572 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: the food in the habitat and all that stuff. Like 573 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: the amount of money that the zoo gives to China 574 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: for panda conservation research is enormous um. Sue Lynn is 575 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: still viewable in taxid army form along with the Tavo lions. 576 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: He's on display in the Field Museum's taxid Army Exhibit. Yeah. 577 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: I feel like we should get a kickback from the Field. 578 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,719 Speaker 1: We send people there all the time. Somebody tweeted at 579 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: us that they had gone to the American Museum of 580 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: Natural History to see the lines and I was like, 581 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: oh no, that's wrong. Museum there in the field. Oh man, 582 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: I love the field. I gotta get back here soon. Uh. 583 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: And while the Ruth the work of Ruth harkne Us 584 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: draws varying opinions, as we've said, there are two sides 585 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: to the whole kind of capturing of an animal. Coin 586 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: in this situation, at a time when shooting exotic beasts 587 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: for sport was happening, she really did shift the public 588 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: thinking on pandas into one of adoration. She's sometimes credited, 589 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: you'll see, like in quick bios of hers, she's the 590 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: woman that started the panda craze, which is kind of 591 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: an interesting phrase anyway. But you know, this this shift 592 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: in mindset where people suddenly saw it as a sweet thing, 593 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: Let's find the interesting animal and protect it, instead of 594 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: let's find the interesting animal and shooting it until it 595 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: is dead. Yeah, So she's she's had a significant impact 596 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: on how we view not just pandas, but many other animals. 597 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: I think it it kind of shifted the way biologists 598 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: and zoologists were thinking about them at the time. You know, 599 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: at some point those people recognize that, like you can 600 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: know everything about zoology that you know, but you're gonna 601 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: need to get people that are not educated in biology 602 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: and science on board with you if you're gonna get 603 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: the funding to keep these efforts going, right, That's part 604 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: of it. Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. 605 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: Since this episode is out of the archive, if you 606 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: heard an email address or Facebook U r L or 607 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: something similar over the course of the show that could 608 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: be obsolete now. Our current email address is History Podcast 609 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. Our old how Stuff 610 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: Works email address no longer works, and you can find 611 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: us all over social media at missed in History. And 612 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: you can subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, 613 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, and wherever else you listen 614 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: to podcasts. Stuff You Missed in History Class is a 615 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I 616 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 617 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.