WEBVTT - #532 Jason Flom with Clay Chabot 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.400 The Innocence Network is a loose affiliation of independent innocence organizations, 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.440 and each year, members of these organizations, as well as 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:10.680 the hundreds of exanneries who they've helped free, gather for 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:15.240 the Innocence Network Conference, and it's a beautiful thing for 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.280 one weekend. The ex honorees can all count on the 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.640 fact that there are other people around who share their experience, 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.280 and our team was honored to join them for their 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.760 twenty twenty two gathering in Arizona. We recorded a number 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.360 of interviews and the damage that these stories due to 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.879 your faith in humanity is only then restored by the 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:41.480 amazing people telling those stories. Clay Shabbau and his friend 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.360 Doug Graham were bikers who dealt some drugs in Garland, Texas. 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.720 Clay's brother in law, Jerry Papps, was a customer with 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.520 a newborn son. Clay was beginning to leave that life 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.760 behind when on April nineteenth, nineteen eighty six, Doug Graham's 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.319 common law wife was found in her home having been 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.440 sexually assaulted and shot down when Paps returned a gun 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.240 that he'd taken from his sister. He told her husband Clay, 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.040 about how he was at Doug's that morning to buy drugs, 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.440 heard gunshots and fled. Witnesses had seen PAP's car there, 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:16.240 and he was later found wearing bloody clothing. However, even 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.280 with all of this evidence pointing towards PAPS, he was 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.839 able to redirect detectives towards his rough looking brother in law, 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:27.400 Clay Chabeau. A rape kit was performed, but in nineteen 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.160 eighty six, the DNA testing that would one day exclude 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:35.120 Clay was not available. Curiously, no blood type evidence was presented. 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.360 Instead of simply using the evidence that implicated PAPS, detectives 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.720 decided that they needed a statement from Clay. When Clay 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.440 refused to testify to something that he didn't know, detectives 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.920 chose to ignore all evidence and the inconsistent statements from 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:54.880 PAPS to focus their efforts squarely on Clay, using PAPS 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.080 as their star witness and the implicit bias against bikers. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.720 Clay Schabeau was sentenced to life prison. It took the 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.800 evolution of DNA testing, the post conviction statutes allowing it, 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.240 and the dedicated team at the Innocis Project to finally 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.880 prove what seemed to be evident to the prosecutor at 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:31.120 Clay's original trial. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:36.280 Wrongful Conviction today's episode. How can I say this? If 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.399 I was going to teach a third grade class how 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.520 to solve a crime, I might present them with the 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:48.919 evidence that was available and abundant in this case, and 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.400 they would solve this case. I would say within an 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:55.359 hour at the most. I mean, this one came with instructions, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.520 and yet the authorities managed to not only lock up 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.920 an NCMA, but let the obvious suspect remain free. And 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.440 of course I'm talking about the case of Clay Shabou. Clay, 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.480 I'm sorry for everything you went through. So thank you 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.320 for being here today. Thank you for having me and 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.800 with Clay one of his attorneys, Jason Craig from the 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.080 Innocence Project in New York. Jason, I think this is 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.080 your first time on the show, but hopefully not the last. 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:21.560 It is. 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:23.560 I'm happy to be here and so thanks for having me. 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:25.959 All right, So, Clay, you were born a couple of 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.680 years before I was, and grew up in Texas, no Ohio, Ohio. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:31.560 So tell us about that. What was your childhood like? 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.560 My father was a truck driver mother. You know, home 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.480 cared a lot of kids, and my parents boke up 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.040 when I was eight years old and I got shuttled 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.040 for one family member to the other for about seven 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.880 years or so until I was about fifteen and decided 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:48.680 to just take off my own so I started cross 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.560 country hitchacking across country, wound up in California for a 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.600 few years, got married that lasted about a year, got divorced, 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.280 coming back to Ohio, and decided to join the military. 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.120 In nineteen eighty one. I was on an aircraft carrier. 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:03.400 There was a large ship with a five thousand guys 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.680 and we all could find a small spaces and under authority. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:07.840 So I think it gave me the strength in the 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.040 fortitude to endure whatever went through later in life. Wow 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:12.960 served about three three and a half years of the 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:14.400 military and I got run over by hit and run 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.000 drug driver on my motorcycle. So I got discharged and 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:17.920 went back to Ohio. 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.719 And we're here at the INNOCENTCE Network conference. I'm so 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.640 happy to be recording live and in person again. And 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.000 you can't see Clay, but I can. And the way 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.520 he dresses today, he looks like being a corporate boardroom somewhere. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.520 But you were a tough guy back then, right, And 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.080 no judgment here. You were involved in some let's just say, 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.039 extra legal activities. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.880 Right absolutely where I was raised in Ohio, you know, impoverished. 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.159 There's actually the Hell's Angels club to house, so a 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.640 lot of people there indulging mind altering drugs. We can't 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.120 afford to go to bail for skiing trips, so we 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:52.400 take ours locally. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.880 Internally, yes, I understand. And by the way, like I said, 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:58.240 no judgment here. I mean when I was a kid, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:00.840 we probably could compare our old photos because I had 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.159 so much hair I couldn't even see. I looked like 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.760 cousin it. And I used to smoke weed from sun 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.040 up to sundown, and I was involved in some stuff 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.200 I definitely shouldn't have been involved in it. So anyway, 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.000 so you were into motorcycles, the Hell's Angels, drugs, You 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.760 did some dealing, and you moved to Texas at some point. 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.760 You got married, had a son, Harley, a few months 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.119 before all this happened, and he's here with us today. 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.599 And Harley's uncle, your brother in law, Jerry Paps. He 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.640 lived nearby with his wife and he used to come 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.680 to you and a friend of yours, Doug Graham, for drugs. Now, 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.480 from what I understand, Paps was into speed and coke 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.800 and was led to believe that Doug had cut a 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.640 batch of whatever he was taking with too much baking 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.279 soda or some other substance, even though it was you, Clay, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.560 who did the cutting, and Doug was aware of this, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:51.039 And that leads us up to April nineteen, nineteen eighty six, Garland, Texas. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.560 Unbeknownst to Clay, Paps had taken a gun from his sister, 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.520 Clay's wife, and later that day, Doug Graham's common law wife, 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.040 who was twenty eight years old, her body was found 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.839 in their home. And this is just awful, so brace yourself. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.600 But she had been tied, gagged, shot three times, and 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.400 she had been raped. A rape kit was performed, but 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:18.400 that evidence, unfortunately wasn't useful, or perhaps the blood type 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.680 evidence wasn't useful to the state, because you got to 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:23.800 imagine if it was, they would have brought it up. 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.360 But we don't know either way. And however, the biological 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.680 evidence didn't become useful to Clay and really all of 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.760 us until DNA testing became available. Many years later. And 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.320 I want to turn to Jason here, because this really 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.440 was a horrific crime. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.520 Yeah, no, that's absolutely true, and that did get attention immediately, 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.120 even on the local news. And it just so happened 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.440 to be someone who Clay knew of. 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.720 The victim's husband. They weren't really legally married. Doug Graham 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.200 was really one of my best friends, and I mean 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.800 we associated on Christmas, we played cards, we hung out 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:57.280 together for several years, and. 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.560 So that was the initial nexus that even started any 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.000 interest in Clay for any reason. 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.159 There was no physical evidence connecting Clay to the crime. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.640 That wasn't the case for his brother in law. 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.120 That's absolutely right when you said in the introduction that 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:17.960 most elementary school children could have solved this case within 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.600 a few hours and actually identified the actual perpetrator. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:22.040 You're right. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.600 The police they had one individual, Gerald Papps, who was 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.880 telling a series of different stories over and over again. 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.040 A person who had been found with blood on his 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.400 shirt within hours of this homicide. A person who had 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.040 proceeds from the victim's home, person who had pawned some 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.480 items that were taken there, whose car had been at 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.520 the victim's home earlier. In that day. None of this 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:48.320 information was dependent on anyone else's statement. This was actual 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.240 physical evidence linking him to the crime. What the detectives 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.640 also had was someone else, Clay, who was actually helping, 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.960 who actually reached out and said there might be something 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.960 to what had just happened when his brother in law 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.160 had shown back up to return this gun. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.440 Correct, they came to my house, asked me a few questions, 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.120 and I told him all about how my brother in 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.320 law had taken the gun from his sister's purse prior 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:15.840 to this. And he was standing at the door and 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:17.400 I said, come on in. He said no, no, I got 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.080 to go, I said, And he handed me the gun 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.160 and I said, what are you doing with this? He said, well, 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.560 I parted this morning for Sandy's purse. I looked and 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.560 I said, where's the clip? He said, oh yeah, and 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.400 he hand me the clip and I noticed the clip 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.280 was empty. I said, were it's the bullet? He said. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:31.800 I threw him out. I said, what are you talking about? 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.160 Him in here? So he came in and he tells 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:35.679 me the story of He claimed he was supposed to 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.240 meet the victim's husband, Doug Graham, but he said he 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.199 got over there, and before he could even get out 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.439 of his car and go in, he saw two men 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.440 pull up in a car and they went inside and 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:47.840 he heard gunshots. So he got scared and the left. 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.160 So he came back to my house and he returned 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.400 this gun. He left my house, and I'm thinking that 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.480 I didn't know anybody had been hurt at the time, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:57.079 so I'm thinking, you know, he's just been up all 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.760 night on speed. So I didn't pay much attention to it. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.640 And later that afternoon, I was supposed to meet Doug 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.680 or another deal we're gonna do, but and I wasn't 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.640 even paying attention to the TV. It's almost like it 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.280 played and then I heard it and I had to 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.040 replay it in my mind to say, what did they 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.600 just say? And my wife, she knew the victims, and 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:17.920 she said that's her. 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.680 I said, what And for some reason in your mind, 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.239 you didn't leap to that conclusion. 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:29.000 I just couldn't believe that he could do something like that. 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:30.880 It'd be like somebody trying to tell you your brother 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.319 or your mother or something, which cape I mean, I 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:34.920 knew the guy for several years. I'd been married to 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.160 his sister for several years, and I just couldn't conceive it. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.800 That's just so far out of my realm and world 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:42.840 of you know, Like I said, I've never really heard 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.720 anybody about myself through my own abuse of things. So 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.320 I believed this story. I believed that he was there, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.320 saw a couple people, and I really wanted him to 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.440 just try to lead them to help solve the situation itself. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.199 I got to tell you, I pondered over it. I 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.680 didn't call Doug until like the next day, because I 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.840 tried to reach Doug that night because I was supposed 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.480 to meet and somebody strange answered his house phone, and 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:05.880 I thought, oh, I don't know who that is. I said, well, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:06.920 who are you trying to get ahold of? What do 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.600 you want for it? So I hung up? So I said, man, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:11.600 something that's really gone wrong over there. So I went 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.280 back down to Jerry's house and I said, Jerry, I'm 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.280 going to drive over to Dougs. You want to go 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:17.760 with me? He said, oh, no, no, no, man, I don't 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:19.800 want to go anywhere near that place. And then I 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:21.719 started getting little more larry and worried. And now I'm 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.760 in a situation to note where you know, if I 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.320 do do this. I got to live with this sister. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:28.679 You know, how do you live with your wife when 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.480 you reported her brother for something like that? I mean, 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:33.720 just the conflict in that my head and heart was. 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.920 I thought to myself, you know what, if this was 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.800 my sister, my wife, I'd want somebody help me. And 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:41.520 the next day is when I decided to call Doug 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:58.640 and tell him how I think I had information. He 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.320 had just been born, he was five months old, and 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.600 I was trying to knock off the stupid stuff, straighten 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.360 myself up, because he was finally something more important to. 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.640 Me and for our listeners. Clays Son Harley's here with 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.480 us now. He's about twice the size of his father, 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:16.600 and he's now thirty six years old. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.280 And I just turned, you know, like twenty five, you know, 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.280 and they say the prefront of cortex and mailes doesn't 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.199 develop until twenty five when you start having huge consequences. 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:25.440 So I think it was just a matter of you know, 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.000 age and plus like I said, him being born, and 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.240 it was my friend. So I wanted to do the 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:30.640 right thing. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.920 But we see too often people like you who come 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.360 forward trying to help and wanted to be you know, 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:42.440 good citizens and believed in the system as you did, 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.920 and it ends up putting them in the crosshairs. 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.840 Let me say this, in fairness of things, I kind 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.439 of created this whole scenario in a way for myself. 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:54.520 Jerry wanted more drugs. I didn't want to get him 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:56.160 to him. I told him should call my friend Doug. 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:57.360 I just wanted him to get out of my house 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.840 and leave, So that's what led him to go over 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:02.480 To's house. Later though, Jerry would tell a story about 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.600 how the drugs I had had had gotten from Doug 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:10.400 earlier were inadequate. Well, quite frankly, it was my own doing. 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.160 I had put too much cut on the drugs. So 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.800 there was no animosity between me and Doug because Doug 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.440 didn't do anything wrong. But I had told Jerry that 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:21.160 just to get him out of my house. I said, Man, 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.400 this does no good joining this. So in fairness man, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.000 I sort of set the stage that led the police 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.520 to believe that I had a reason that I was 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.280 angry with Doug over it, but they didn't really look 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.880 at the smaller facts, like Doug knew that wasn't true. 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:37.400 Doug knew that I was supposed to meet him again, 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.040 that night to do another deal. I mean, so when 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:41.920 they left my house that afternoon, they asked me if 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:43.080 they could have the gun. They asked if I had 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:44.960 any more of the same kind of bullets, and I 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.800 happily rented and given to him. They left, and within 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:49.880 a few hours my brother in law's wife came to 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:51.680 the house screening about how the police had showed up 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.280 arrested him. And as I understood it, by then, they 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:56.839 had already had a witness that positive identified his cart 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.240 to see the crime. They called him with blood on 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.520 his clothes, tickets for stolen merchandise and maybe some stole merchandise. 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.320 So I don't know, you know, like I said, it 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.400 was clean cut. I was a rough looking guy, and 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.080 so he gave him the story that I had borrowed 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:09.880 his car, and then he didn't go there, and they 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.160 allowed him just change his story every time his facts 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.680 proved wrong. They just let him change his story because 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.280 they didn't see why Jerry would do something like that. 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.560 You know, they were looking for the motive. And I'll 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.160 tell you this, the detectives simply didn't want to believe 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.640 that I had handed them the solution to this case 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.439 on a silver platter. They were like, no, where detectives. 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:29.560 There's gotta be more to this. It's got to be 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.240 more complicated, you know, something for us to unravel and figure. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.640 I just don't think they could accept the fact that 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.120 this would have been so simple had they just looked 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.480 at the evidence as it stood. So they came back 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:40.200 and arrested me. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.880 So you're arrested, taking to jail. Were you in jail 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:45.440 awaiting trial? Did you can't bail out? 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:46.160 No? 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.240 Well they had me on a I think a quartermain 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.200 and how long did you think about eight months? Eventually 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.160 just rolled out to where they came to me and 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.440 they said, look, we don't think you're actually there, but 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.800 we need somebody to testify. If you'll testify against your 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:00.760 brother law, will let you go. 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:05.360 This was a situation where the state felt they needed 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.880 a confession, someone who could turn into a witness who 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.600 was actually there and one person had information because there 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.640 was only one person there, Gerald Pepps, and Clay was 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.600 not there, was not involved, and so he had no 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.120 ability to offer what the state wanted, what the state 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:24.840 felt they needed to prove a case. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.800 I believed in the just system whole hardly. I just 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.040 come out of the military. I'd never been in a 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.560 serious trouble in any kind before, and so I said, listen, 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:33.960 I can't do that. You want me to lie to 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:35.600 possibly send this guy to death throw for something I 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.520 don't know he did or not. It was okay. Well, 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:40.840 they went to Jerry, my brother in law, and said 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.680 same thing, and she got the standpoint of the figure, 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.640 said yeah, we're both there. He pulled the trigger. They 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:48.120 let him go, and they gave me a licence. 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.600 So he gave the state what they needed and he 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.320 got a benefit and immediate benefit that lasted for him 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:54.960 a couple of decades. Yeah. 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:59.320 I mean, there's that saying a body for a body, right, 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.280 and we know that sadly, in too many cases, the 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.760 authorities are happy to just get somebody, close the case 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.560 and move on. And then the idea that in this 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.000 case they had every reason to know, they may even 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:18.560 have known that the guy who was weaving these bizarre tales. 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:21.800 I mean, nobody could possibly believe that, but they did, 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:23.120 or at least the jury did. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.000 There's a very telling note that we uncovered in the 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.880 prosecutor's file years later when we're looking into the case, 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:35.680 acknowledging that pass he was found within ours bloody T shirt. 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.360 And the quote is you know something like this is 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.120 a problem for us. Well, yeah, it's a big problem 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.200 for us. You literally had the person who was connected 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.240 to the crime physically, with physical evidence. Who is your 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.680 star witness. That's a huge problem for the state. And 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.480 we can never know exactly what was in the prosecutor's 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.160 mind when she wrote that note, but the context clues 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.280 are fairly clear she understood that the person that they 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.600 were relying on to solve this homicide was someone who 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.320 was actually involved in the homicide. And of course now 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.120 we know that with certainty based on the DNA testing 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.240 that was done years later, but even at the time 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:16.240 of trial, the contemporaneous notes that the prosecutor had recognized 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.080 that they had a problem because perhaps their star witness 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.000 was the person who was found with blood. And of 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.280 course this is the person who initially said he had 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.560 nothing to do with the crime at all, wasn't even there, 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.000 and then puts himself there. Eventually it changes the story 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.120 that way, and then changes the story a little bit more, 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:33.840 and puts himself there, and then changes the story a 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:35.120 little bit more, and all of a sudden, he's now 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.640 inside the house, but never willing to say what we 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.080 now know he actually did. 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:41.720 One of the things that really stuck out to me 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:43.880 when I was reading about the trial was the idea that, 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.200 and I think this should be a red flag in 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:51.400 every case, is when Jerry said that you forced him 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.400 at gunpoint to tie up the victim. That's not a 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.960 thing that happens except maybe in some weird TV show 0:16:58.040 --> 0:16:58.480 or movie. 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.840 Right, supposed to be your criminal partner? Yeah, and you're 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.160 pointing to God at him, now, did I'd put a 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.600 gun in and making care of the TV out too, Jason? 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.960 Unless there was something else presented, I don't even understand 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:10.600 how a Jerry could get this one wrong. 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.360 So what did they hear? They have a witness who 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.440 claims to have been there during the entire crime, who 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.800 is now backed by the state, called by the state, 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.640 who's walking them through what we now know is and 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.600 what Clay obviously knew then was a fictitious story about 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.280 what happened. I mean, they're hearing it blow by blow 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:33.280 from this witness as the state solicits information from him, 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.600 and then the state calls other witnesses to vouch for 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.400 Jerry to present Jerry as this person who was overwhelmed 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:44.560 by the ringleader. Who's the defendant there, Clay. But Jerry, 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.440 of course, in the state's eyes, was this person who 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.480 wasn't a violent person, hadn't done other bad things, didn't 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.040 look like Clay looked at the time. 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.359 So what they presented was me as a criminal in general, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.960 wrote Harley Davison's carried John's did drugs looked like Charles Manson. 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.320 So, Clay, what was the evidence that was presented in 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:05.720 your defense at the trial? 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.919 Unfortunately? I mean my defense was, look, I was at 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.719 home sleeping. I mean, how do you approve that? So 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.399 the only person that was able to testify in my 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.919 behalf was my wife, which was the sister of the 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.280 witness against me, And so they just claimed she was 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.560 a liar to protect me, not considering that, how do 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.800 you think she could get up there and say, you know, look, 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.359 he didn't do it, indirectly implicating her own brother. 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.680 I think the failure is that the prosecutor, they knew 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.000 the limitations of what they knew. They didn't need DNA 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.359 testing in nineteen eighty six to know the limitations of 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.359 their case. They wrote about it in their notes and 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.800 they should have been the ones who check the beyond 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.040 a reasonable doubt standard before they put someone's life at stake. 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.200 The jury goes out, how long did they deliverate Clay. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.280 I didn't have time to smoke a cigarette before they 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.280 send the jury is back? 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:58.240 Wow, so as minutes. Yeah, if you could take us 0:18:58.280 --> 0:18:59.320 back to that moment. 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.119 I just went into a sort of shock state because 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.919 they really didn't impact me or hit me until they 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.280 immediately conducted the penalty phase. And my wife at the time, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.240 Harley's mother, had got up and went to the bathroom 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:15.520 and they ran a penalty face so fast. By the 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.800 time she came back in the bathroom, they were already 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.480 ann ounce of life. You know. As soon as I 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:22.320 do that, they should stand up and I drag you 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:23.960 the back, and I remember asking if they would put 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:25.520 me in a private self because I didn't want to 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.520 be in with the crowd of you know, other people 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.040