1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: The Innocence Network is a loose affiliation of independent innocence organizations, 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: and each year, members of these organizations, as well as 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: the hundreds of exanneries who they've helped free, gather for 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: the Innocence Network Conference, and it's a beautiful thing for 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: one weekend. The ex honorees can all count on the 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: fact that there are other people around who share their experience, 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: and our team was honored to join them for their 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two gathering in Arizona. We recorded a number 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: of interviews and the damage that these stories due to 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: your faith in humanity is only then restored by the 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: amazing people telling those stories. Clay Shabbau and his friend 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: Doug Graham were bikers who dealt some drugs in Garland, Texas. 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: Clay's brother in law, Jerry Papps, was a customer with 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: a newborn son. Clay was beginning to leave that life 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: behind when on April nineteenth, nineteen eighty six, Doug Graham's 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,319 Speaker 1: common law wife was found in her home having been 17 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted and shot down when Paps returned a gun 18 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: that he'd taken from his sister. He told her husband Clay, 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: about how he was at Doug's that morning to buy drugs, 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: heard gunshots and fled. Witnesses had seen PAP's car there, 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: and he was later found wearing bloody clothing. However, even 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: with all of this evidence pointing towards PAPS, he was 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: able to redirect detectives towards his rough looking brother in law, 24 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: Clay Chabeau. A rape kit was performed, but in nineteen 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: eighty six, the DNA testing that would one day exclude 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: Clay was not available. Curiously, no blood type evidence was presented. 27 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: Instead of simply using the evidence that implicated PAPS, detectives 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: decided that they needed a statement from Clay. When Clay 29 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: refused to testify to something that he didn't know, detectives 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: chose to ignore all evidence and the inconsistent statements from 31 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: PAPS to focus their efforts squarely on Clay, using PAPS 32 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: as their star witness and the implicit bias against bikers. 33 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: Clay Schabeau was sentenced to life prison. It took the 34 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: evolution of DNA testing, the post conviction statutes allowing it, 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: and the dedicated team at the Innocis Project to finally 36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: prove what seemed to be evident to the prosecutor at 37 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: Clay's original trial. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 38 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction today's episode. How can I say this? If 39 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 1: I was going to teach a third grade class how 40 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: to solve a crime, I might present them with the 41 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: evidence that was available and abundant in this case, and 42 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: they would solve this case. I would say within an 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: hour at the most. I mean, this one came with instructions, 44 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: and yet the authorities managed to not only lock up 45 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: an NCMA, but let the obvious suspect remain free. And 46 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: of course I'm talking about the case of Clay Shabou. Clay, 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for everything you went through. So thank you 48 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: for being here today. Thank you for having me and 49 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: with Clay one of his attorneys, Jason Craig from the 50 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: Innocence Project in New York. Jason, I think this is 51 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: your first time on the show, but hopefully not the last. 52 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: It is. 53 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here and so thanks for having me. 54 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: All right, So, Clay, you were born a couple of 55 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: years before I was, and grew up in Texas, no Ohio, Ohio. 56 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: So tell us about that. What was your childhood like? 57 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: My father was a truck driver mother. You know, home 58 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: cared a lot of kids, and my parents boke up 59 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 3: when I was eight years old and I got shuttled 60 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 3: for one family member to the other for about seven 61 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: years or so until I was about fifteen and decided 62 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 3: to just take off my own so I started cross 63 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: country hitchacking across country, wound up in California for a 64 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 3: few years, got married that lasted about a year, got divorced, 65 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 3: coming back to Ohio, and decided to join the military. 66 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty one. I was on an aircraft carrier. 67 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 3: There was a large ship with a five thousand guys 68 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 3: and we all could find a small spaces and under authority. 69 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: So I think it gave me the strength in the 70 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: fortitude to endure whatever went through later in life. Wow 71 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: served about three three and a half years of the 72 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: military and I got run over by hit and run 73 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 3: drug driver on my motorcycle. So I got discharged and 74 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 3: went back to Ohio. 75 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: And we're here at the INNOCENTCE Network conference. I'm so 76 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: happy to be recording live and in person again. And 77 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: you can't see Clay, but I can. And the way 78 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: he dresses today, he looks like being a corporate boardroom somewhere. 79 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: But you were a tough guy back then, right, And 80 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: no judgment here. You were involved in some let's just say, 81 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: extra legal activities. 82 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: Right absolutely where I was raised in Ohio, you know, impoverished. 83 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 3: There's actually the Hell's Angels club to house, so a 84 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: lot of people there indulging mind altering drugs. We can't 85 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 3: afford to go to bail for skiing trips, so we 86 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: take ours locally. 87 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: Internally, yes, I understand. And by the way, like I said, 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: no judgment here. I mean when I was a kid, 89 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: we probably could compare our old photos because I had 90 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: so much hair I couldn't even see. I looked like 91 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: cousin it. And I used to smoke weed from sun 92 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: up to sundown, and I was involved in some stuff 93 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: I definitely shouldn't have been involved in it. So anyway, 94 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: so you were into motorcycles, the Hell's Angels, drugs, You 95 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: did some dealing, and you moved to Texas at some point. 96 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: You got married, had a son, Harley, a few months 97 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,119 Speaker 1: before all this happened, and he's here with us today. 98 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: And Harley's uncle, your brother in law, Jerry Paps. He 99 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: lived nearby with his wife and he used to come 100 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: to you and a friend of yours, Doug Graham, for drugs. Now, 101 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: from what I understand, Paps was into speed and coke 102 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: and was led to believe that Doug had cut a 103 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: batch of whatever he was taking with too much baking 104 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: soda or some other substance, even though it was you, Clay, 105 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: who did the cutting, and Doug was aware of this, 106 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: And that leads us up to April nineteen, nineteen eighty six, Garland, Texas. 107 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to Clay, Paps had taken a gun from his sister, 108 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: Clay's wife, and later that day, Doug Graham's common law wife, 109 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: who was twenty eight years old, her body was found 110 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: in their home. And this is just awful, so brace yourself. 111 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: But she had been tied, gagged, shot three times, and 112 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: she had been raped. A rape kit was performed, but 113 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: that evidence, unfortunately wasn't useful, or perhaps the blood type 114 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: evidence wasn't useful to the state, because you got to 115 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: imagine if it was, they would have brought it up. 116 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: But we don't know either way. And however, the biological 117 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: evidence didn't become useful to Clay and really all of 118 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: us until DNA testing became available. Many years later. And 119 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: I want to turn to Jason here, because this really 120 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: was a horrific crime. 121 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's absolutely true, and that did get attention immediately, 122 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: even on the local news. And it just so happened 123 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: to be someone who Clay knew of. 124 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 3: The victim's husband. They weren't really legally married. Doug Graham 125 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 3: was really one of my best friends, and I mean 126 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 3: we associated on Christmas, we played cards, we hung out 127 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 3: together for several years, and. 128 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: So that was the initial nexus that even started any 129 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: interest in Clay for any reason. 130 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: There was no physical evidence connecting Clay to the crime. 131 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: That wasn't the case for his brother in law. 132 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: That's absolutely right when you said in the introduction that 133 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: most elementary school children could have solved this case within 134 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: a few hours and actually identified the actual perpetrator. 135 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: You're right. 136 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: The police they had one individual, Gerald Papps, who was 137 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: telling a series of different stories over and over again. 138 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: A person who had been found with blood on his 139 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: shirt within hours of this homicide. A person who had 140 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: proceeds from the victim's home, person who had pawned some 141 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: items that were taken there, whose car had been at 142 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: the victim's home earlier. In that day. None of this 143 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: information was dependent on anyone else's statement. This was actual 144 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: physical evidence linking him to the crime. What the detectives 145 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: also had was someone else, Clay, who was actually helping, 146 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: who actually reached out and said there might be something 147 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: to what had just happened when his brother in law 148 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 2: had shown back up to return this gun. 149 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 3: Correct, they came to my house, asked me a few questions, 150 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 3: and I told him all about how my brother in 151 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 3: law had taken the gun from his sister's purse prior 152 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 3: to this. And he was standing at the door and 153 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: I said, come on in. He said no, no, I got 154 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: to go, I said, And he handed me the gun 155 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 3: and I said, what are you doing with this? He said, well, 156 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: I parted this morning for Sandy's purse. I looked and 157 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 3: I said, where's the clip? He said, oh yeah, and 158 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 3: he hand me the clip and I noticed the clip 159 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: was empty. I said, were it's the bullet? He said. 160 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: I threw him out. I said, what are you talking about? 161 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 3: Him in here? So he came in and he tells 162 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 3: me the story of He claimed he was supposed to 163 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 3: meet the victim's husband, Doug Graham, but he said he 164 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 3: got over there, and before he could even get out 165 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 3: of his car and go in, he saw two men 166 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 3: pull up in a car and they went inside and 167 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 3: he heard gunshots. So he got scared and the left. 168 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: So he came back to my house and he returned 169 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: this gun. He left my house, and I'm thinking that 170 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: I didn't know anybody had been hurt at the time, 171 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 3: so I'm thinking, you know, he's just been up all 172 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: night on speed. So I didn't pay much attention to it. 173 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: And later that afternoon, I was supposed to meet Doug 174 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 3: or another deal we're gonna do, but and I wasn't 175 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 3: even paying attention to the TV. It's almost like it 176 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: played and then I heard it and I had to 177 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: replay it in my mind to say, what did they 178 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: just say? And my wife, she knew the victims, and 179 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: she said that's her. 180 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: I said, what And for some reason in your mind, 181 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,239 Speaker 1: you didn't leap to that conclusion. 182 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: I just couldn't believe that he could do something like that. 183 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: It'd be like somebody trying to tell you your brother 184 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 3: or your mother or something, which cape I mean, I 185 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 3: knew the guy for several years. I'd been married to 186 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: his sister for several years, and I just couldn't conceive it. 187 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: That's just so far out of my realm and world 188 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: of you know, Like I said, I've never really heard 189 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 3: anybody about myself through my own abuse of things. So 190 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 3: I believed this story. I believed that he was there, 191 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 3: saw a couple people, and I really wanted him to 192 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 3: just try to lead them to help solve the situation itself. 193 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 3: I got to tell you, I pondered over it. I 194 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 3: didn't call Doug until like the next day, because I 195 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: tried to reach Doug that night because I was supposed 196 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: to meet and somebody strange answered his house phone, and 197 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 3: I thought, oh, I don't know who that is. I said, well, 198 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 3: who are you trying to get ahold of? What do 199 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: you want for it? So I hung up? So I said, man, 200 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 3: something that's really gone wrong over there. So I went 201 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 3: back down to Jerry's house and I said, Jerry, I'm 202 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 3: going to drive over to Dougs. You want to go 203 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 3: with me? He said, oh, no, no, no, man, I don't 204 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: want to go anywhere near that place. And then I 205 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 3: started getting little more larry and worried. And now I'm 206 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 3: in a situation to note where you know, if I 207 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 3: do do this. I got to live with this sister. 208 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 3: You know, how do you live with your wife when 209 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: you reported her brother for something like that? I mean, 210 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 3: just the conflict in that my head and heart was. 211 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: I thought to myself, you know what, if this was 212 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 3: my sister, my wife, I'd want somebody help me. And 213 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 3: the next day is when I decided to call Doug 214 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: and tell him how I think I had information. He 215 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 3: had just been born, he was five months old, and 216 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: I was trying to knock off the stupid stuff, straighten 217 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: myself up, because he was finally something more important to. 218 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: Me and for our listeners. Clays Son Harley's here with 219 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: us now. He's about twice the size of his father, 220 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: and he's now thirty six years old. 221 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 3: And I just turned, you know, like twenty five, you know, 222 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: and they say the prefront of cortex and mailes doesn't 223 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 3: develop until twenty five when you start having huge consequences. 224 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 3: So I think it was just a matter of you know, 225 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: age and plus like I said, him being born, and 226 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: it was my friend. So I wanted to do the 227 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 3: right thing. 228 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: But we see too often people like you who come 229 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: forward trying to help and wanted to be you know, 230 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: good citizens and believed in the system as you did, 231 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: and it ends up putting them in the crosshairs. 232 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 3: Let me say this, in fairness of things, I kind 233 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 3: of created this whole scenario in a way for myself. 234 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: Jerry wanted more drugs. I didn't want to get him 235 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: to him. I told him should call my friend Doug. 236 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: I just wanted him to get out of my house 237 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 3: and leave, So that's what led him to go over 238 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: To's house. Later though, Jerry would tell a story about 239 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 3: how the drugs I had had had gotten from Doug 240 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: earlier were inadequate. Well, quite frankly, it was my own doing. 241 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 3: I had put too much cut on the drugs. So 242 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: there was no animosity between me and Doug because Doug 243 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: didn't do anything wrong. But I had told Jerry that 244 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: just to get him out of my house. I said, Man, 245 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: this does no good joining this. So in fairness man, 246 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 3: I sort of set the stage that led the police 247 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: to believe that I had a reason that I was 248 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 3: angry with Doug over it, but they didn't really look 249 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: at the smaller facts, like Doug knew that wasn't true. 250 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 3: Doug knew that I was supposed to meet him again, 251 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: that night to do another deal. I mean, so when 252 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: they left my house that afternoon, they asked me if 253 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 3: they could have the gun. They asked if I had 254 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 3: any more of the same kind of bullets, and I 255 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: happily rented and given to him. They left, and within 256 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: a few hours my brother in law's wife came to 257 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 3: the house screening about how the police had showed up 258 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: arrested him. And as I understood it, by then, they 259 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 3: had already had a witness that positive identified his cart 260 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 3: to see the crime. They called him with blood on 261 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 3: his clothes, tickets for stolen merchandise and maybe some stole merchandise. 262 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 3: So I don't know, you know, like I said, it 263 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 3: was clean cut. I was a rough looking guy, and 264 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 3: so he gave him the story that I had borrowed 265 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 3: his car, and then he didn't go there, and they 266 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: allowed him just change his story every time his facts 267 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: proved wrong. They just let him change his story because 268 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: they didn't see why Jerry would do something like that. 269 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 3: You know, they were looking for the motive. And I'll 270 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 3: tell you this, the detectives simply didn't want to believe 271 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 3: that I had handed them the solution to this case 272 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 3: on a silver platter. They were like, no, where detectives. 273 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: There's gotta be more to this. It's got to be 274 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 3: more complicated, you know, something for us to unravel and figure. 275 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 3: I just don't think they could accept the fact that 276 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: this would have been so simple had they just looked 277 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 3: at the evidence as it stood. So they came back 278 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 3: and arrested me. 279 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: So you're arrested, taking to jail. Were you in jail 280 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: awaiting trial? Did you can't bail out? 281 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 2: No? 282 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: Well they had me on a I think a quartermain 283 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 3: and how long did you think about eight months? Eventually 284 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: just rolled out to where they came to me and 285 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 3: they said, look, we don't think you're actually there, but 286 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: we need somebody to testify. If you'll testify against your 287 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 3: brother law, will let you go. 288 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: This was a situation where the state felt they needed 289 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: a confession, someone who could turn into a witness who 290 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: was actually there and one person had information because there 291 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: was only one person there, Gerald Pepps, and Clay was 292 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: not there, was not involved, and so he had no 293 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: ability to offer what the state wanted, what the state 294 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: felt they needed to prove a case. 295 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 3: I believed in the just system whole hardly. I just 296 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: come out of the military. I'd never been in a 297 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 3: serious trouble in any kind before, and so I said, listen, 298 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 3: I can't do that. You want me to lie to 299 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 3: possibly send this guy to death throw for something I 300 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: don't know he did or not. It was okay. Well, 301 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 3: they went to Jerry, my brother in law, and said 302 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: same thing, and she got the standpoint of the figure, 303 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: said yeah, we're both there. He pulled the trigger. They 304 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: let him go, and they gave me a licence. 305 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: So he gave the state what they needed and he 306 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: got a benefit and immediate benefit that lasted for him 307 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 2: a couple of decades. Yeah. 308 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: I mean, there's that saying a body for a body, right, 309 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: and we know that sadly, in too many cases, the 310 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: authorities are happy to just get somebody, close the case 311 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: and move on. And then the idea that in this 312 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: case they had every reason to know, they may even 313 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: have known that the guy who was weaving these bizarre tales. 314 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody could possibly believe that, but they did, 315 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: or at least the jury did. 316 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: There's a very telling note that we uncovered in the 317 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: prosecutor's file years later when we're looking into the case, 318 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: acknowledging that pass he was found within ours bloody T shirt. 319 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: And the quote is you know something like this is 320 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: a problem for us. Well, yeah, it's a big problem 321 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: for us. You literally had the person who was connected 322 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: to the crime physically, with physical evidence. Who is your 323 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: star witness. That's a huge problem for the state. And 324 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: we can never know exactly what was in the prosecutor's 325 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: mind when she wrote that note, but the context clues 326 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: are fairly clear she understood that the person that they 327 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: were relying on to solve this homicide was someone who 328 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: was actually involved in the homicide. And of course now 329 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: we know that with certainty based on the DNA testing 330 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: that was done years later, but even at the time 331 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: of trial, the contemporaneous notes that the prosecutor had recognized 332 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: that they had a problem because perhaps their star witness 333 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: was the person who was found with blood. And of 334 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: course this is the person who initially said he had 335 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: nothing to do with the crime at all, wasn't even there, 336 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: and then puts himself there. Eventually it changes the story 337 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: that way, and then changes the story a little bit more, 338 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: and puts himself there, and then changes the story a 339 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: little bit more, and all of a sudden, he's now 340 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: inside the house, but never willing to say what we 341 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: now know he actually did. 342 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: One of the things that really stuck out to me 343 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: when I was reading about the trial was the idea that, 344 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: and I think this should be a red flag in 345 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: every case, is when Jerry said that you forced him 346 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: at gunpoint to tie up the victim. That's not a 347 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: thing that happens except maybe in some weird TV show 348 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: or movie. 349 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 3: Right, supposed to be your criminal partner? Yeah, and you're 350 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 3: pointing to God at him, now, did I'd put a 351 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: gun in and making care of the TV out too, Jason? 352 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: Unless there was something else presented, I don't even understand 353 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: how a Jerry could get this one wrong. 354 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 2: So what did they hear? They have a witness who 355 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 2: claims to have been there during the entire crime, who 356 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 2: is now backed by the state, called by the state, 357 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: who's walking them through what we now know is and 358 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: what Clay obviously knew then was a fictitious story about 359 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 2: what happened. I mean, they're hearing it blow by blow 360 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: from this witness as the state solicits information from him, 361 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: and then the state calls other witnesses to vouch for 362 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 2: Jerry to present Jerry as this person who was overwhelmed 363 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: by the ringleader. Who's the defendant there, Clay. But Jerry, 364 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: of course, in the state's eyes, was this person who 365 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 2: wasn't a violent person, hadn't done other bad things, didn't 366 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: look like Clay looked at the time. 367 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: So what they presented was me as a criminal in general, 368 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: wrote Harley Davison's carried John's did drugs looked like Charles Manson. 369 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: So, Clay, what was the evidence that was presented in 370 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: your defense at the trial? 371 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 3: Unfortunately? I mean my defense was, look, I was at 372 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 3: home sleeping. I mean, how do you approve that? So 373 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: the only person that was able to testify in my 374 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 3: behalf was my wife, which was the sister of the 375 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 3: witness against me, And so they just claimed she was 376 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 3: a liar to protect me, not considering that, how do 377 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: you think she could get up there and say, you know, look, 378 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 3: he didn't do it, indirectly implicating her own brother. 379 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: I think the failure is that the prosecutor, they knew 380 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: the limitations of what they knew. They didn't need DNA 381 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: testing in nineteen eighty six to know the limitations of 382 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: their case. They wrote about it in their notes and 383 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: they should have been the ones who check the beyond 384 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: a reasonable doubt standard before they put someone's life at stake. 385 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: The jury goes out, how long did they deliverate Clay. 386 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 3: I didn't have time to smoke a cigarette before they 387 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 3: send the jury is back? 388 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: Wow, so as minutes. Yeah, if you could take us 389 00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: back to that moment. 390 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 3: I just went into a sort of shock state because 391 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 3: they really didn't impact me or hit me until they 392 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 3: immediately conducted the penalty phase. And my wife at the time, 393 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 3: Harley's mother, had got up and went to the bathroom 394 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: and they ran a penalty face so fast. By the 395 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 3: time she came back in the bathroom, they were already 396 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: ann ounce of life. You know. As soon as I 397 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: do that, they should stand up and I drag you 398 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 3: the back, and I remember asking if they would put 399 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 3: me in a private self because I didn't want to 400 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 3: be in with the crowd of you know, other people 401 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 3: being transport around and I just wanted to scream and 402 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 3: tear and I did. In my mind, prison is ninety 403 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 3: percent border punctuated by ten percent cheer stark terror. You 404 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 3: just after the over the years, you adapt you have to. 405 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: When I went in Texas, Francisco. It was a run 406 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 3: by what they call the Building ten or system. Inmates 407 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 3: were running it. There was only a handful of guards 408 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 3: through three thousand inmates. The inmates were empowered with authority 409 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 3: weapons to maintain the for the system. It was brutal, 410 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 3: absolutely brutal. You know, it's odd even though it was 411 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 3: run by prisoners and it was brutal if you follow 412 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: the rules with them, there was a lot more internal 413 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 3: freedom and it was more of a physical thing. In fact, 414 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 3: it wasn't until some years to follow that a large 415 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 3: lawsuit Federal brought in special masters and they brought the 416 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,719 Speaker 3: guards in and they took the building tenders out. Became 417 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: more of a mental pressure. But I had to say 418 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 3: again because I was a little older, i think, and 419 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 3: I had gone through the military, and I used my 420 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 3: head the gang members and things. I taught him how 421 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 3: to do things that they weren't doing that made it 422 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 3: profitable for them. So I became an asset, and so 423 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: they would say leave him alone. So I tried to stay, 424 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 3: you know, just actively involved with either education or something 425 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: to keep my mind off of, you know, the day 426 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 3: to day mundane. 427 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: And was there a lowest and the highest point for 428 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: you while you were in there. 429 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 3: I had a number of them, the one in the 430 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 3: first when my father died, and at those points I 431 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: considered suicide, but that's not in my day. I even 432 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: had it all figured out several ways to do it. 433 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 3: But quite frankly, I knew this. I see my mind 434 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 3: strip away everything else. My mind knew it didn't do 435 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 3: what it was being punished for, and it just needed 436 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: to know it had a way out if it had 437 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 3: to at all last resort. So once I had that 438 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 3: option of suicide, knowing that I do have the option 439 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 3: to get out of this if I have to, it 440 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 3: gave me the strength to go on. Finally, when you know, 441 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 3: after the years and years of Dallas telling me that 442 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 3: they had lost the evidence, I knew that had to 443 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 3: be a lie, and I fought it for ten twelve 444 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 3: years and finally found it. And then the high point 445 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: would have been on a little step was when Texas 446 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 3: finally passed a law whatever that said, you know, if 447 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: you want to apply for DNA testing. That gave me 448 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 3: some hope. But this would have been when DNA testing 449 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: proved that Jerry Papp's semen was recovered from the rape 450 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 3: kit his DNA was on her hands, DNA on his fingernails, 451 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 3: and then I knew that, you know, we probably had 452 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 3: a pretty good shot of at least, you know, convincing 453 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 3: them that they had it wrong and might want to 454 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 3: look at it. 455 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: Again, identifying perhaps DNA in the extremely probative items of evidence. 456 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: As Clay recounted, it was the key that turned the story. 457 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: And at that point in time, I think Clay's perception 458 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: is as accurate even the people who were absolutely convinced 459 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: that the prosecutor might have been on the right path 460 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: from the get go, even those individuals had to start 461 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: opening their eyes and wonder, now, what was going on. 462 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: While this case came with instructions from the very beginning, 463 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: now twenty years later or so, it came with scientific certainty. 464 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: The actual perpetrator was identified, the. 465 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: State located him. He had gone back to Ohio by 466 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: that point in time, and eventually was arrested for the crime. 467 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: Now this is the state's star witness, but they did, 468 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: with the DNA evidence testing that was done, identify him 469 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: and ultimately convict him. After Clay's conviction was overturned. 470 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: Jason, I think most people in the audience are probably 471 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 1: thinking now, well, amen, right, finally justice, exoneration, compensation, and 472 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: in this case. 473 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 2: That's not the story of Clay's case right now. So tragically, 474 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: after the DNA evidence identified Paps, the state decided to 475 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: re prosecute Clay. They knew that they had been lied to, 476 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: that they allowed someone to lie to the jury, they 477 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: knew the actual perpetrator who had been convicted. They decided 478 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: to re prosecute Clay. And it gets worse. By that 479 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 2: important time. Clay was fortunate that some of the physical 480 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 2: evidence was retained, the evidence that identified Paps, but much 481 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: of the physical evidence had been lost by that point 482 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: in time. So the state's plan was to just run 483 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: it back now recognizing that the person who they had 484 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 2: put all their faith in the first time was the 485 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: actual perpetrator, but unwilling to recognize that the case had 486 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: no legs to stand on against Clay, and Clay was 487 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: forced to contemplate going to trial again without even the 488 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 2: ability to examine and retest some of the other evidence 489 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: that the state at this point had lost. So, for example, 490 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: the purported murder weapon we mentioned earlier, Jerry Papps, when 491 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: he was arrested, had a bloody T shirt that had 492 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 2: been lost. We couldn't demonstrate that even perhaps fourth or 493 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 2: fifth or eighth version of events wasn't accurate had we 494 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: been able to identify the victim's blood on his T shirt. 495 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 3: For example. 496 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: And I have to say I was actually hopeful that 497 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 2: we would be able to convince the judge once we 498 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 2: knew we couldn't convince the prosecutor to just dismiss it 499 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: against Clay, because the misconduct in this case was so deep. 500 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 2: We tried from all angles, both negotiating with the prosecutor, 501 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: we tried with a judge, and we weren't successful. And 502 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: ultimately that left Clay once again in the moment where 503 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: he's posed with a question that he should have never 504 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: had to face. What to do when the prosecutor comes 505 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: to him. Now, you can walk out time served, but 506 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 2: on one condition, you have to play guilty. 507 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: It's hard to figure out what master they're serving at 508 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: this point in time, too. Right, they have the guy. 509 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: The guys they got him the right guy. Now finally 510 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: he got the right guy. Even though you guys did 511 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: everything you possibly could to fuck this up as bad 512 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: as you possibly could, now the right guy's in prison. 513 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 2: And that was extremely frustrating, and so, as Clay mentioned, 514 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: you know, he had been failed by the system before 515 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: he had seen that happen. He'd seen what jurors did 516 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: very quickly at the original trial. And I don't fault 517 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: Clay for a second for making the decision that allowed 518 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 2: him to walk out and be with us today. 519 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: And as I mentioned earlier, Clay's son, Harley is here 520 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: with us right now, so we wanted to give him 521 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: a chance to talk about his memories and what the 522 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: day his father was freed, what that time was like 523 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: for him. 524 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 4: I don't know how to explain happiness and anger at 525 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 4: the same time. His brother is the one that brought 526 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 4: him a home, and I remember, I remember it was 527 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 4: it was a silver Dodge Ram that turned the corner. 528 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 4: I remember staying in the front yard. I was so 529 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 4: excited he was home, jumping up and down, obviously crying 530 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 4: as soon as you got out of the truck. Happy, happy, 531 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 4: and mad. I don't know how to explain it happy 532 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 4: about at the same time. You know, I hugged him 533 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 4: and told him I love him, And then I have 534 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 4: to share because him taking that guilty plea was partly 535 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 4: my decision. He had called me when they offered him that, 536 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 4: and he said, what do I do? 537 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 3: Man? 538 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 4: He said, I can, I can come home now, but 539 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 4: I'm gonna They're gonna leave it on my record. 540 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: They're gonna call me a murderer. 541 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 4: Or I can fight this. And I didn't do this hardly. 542 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 4: I know I didn't do it, so I know I 543 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 4: can fight him. I could probably get some money on us. 544 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 4: You know, well we'll both be fighting. You know, everybody 545 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,719 Speaker 4: will be fighting. Yeah, I said that. Who fucking cares 546 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 4: if they call you a murderer? 547 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 3: Are you? He says, no, Harley, it's grew it. Man. 548 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 4: You alread gave him twenty three years. They're gonna look 549 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 4: for every reason they can't. I love to gamble. I 550 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 4: already gave you twenty three years for nothing. The odds 551 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 4: are clearly not in my favor. I'll go home. That 552 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 4: affected me for twenty three years. That affected all of 553 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 4: his family. My mother, who asking her Almi. You know, 554 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 4: she stayed married to him til I was about nineteen. 555 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 4: She was in a pretty brutal place as well. You know, 556 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 4: it's your brother and your husband. She never called him 557 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 4: the dad guilty, and she never defended Jerry. So it 558 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 4: makes me feel like she knew more, but she was 559 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 4: just in a hard place. And it always kind of 560 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 4: barked me because Jerry was around her family. I almost 561 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 4: feel like a bad human for saying it sometimes, and 562 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 4: I'm glad that everything happened and happened now, you know, 563 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 4: he passed away in prison, which is perfect in my mind. 564 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 4: I think I'm allowed to feel that way. But it 565 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 4: ripped our paint apart. But we can do this to 566 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 4: humans and throw them in prison and it there not 567 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 4: be a lot of recourse, you know, the prosecutor. I 568 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 4: actually learned some of the day that I didn't know. 569 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 4: You know, this could be a problem for us. You 570 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 4: were aware of that, even you destroy your life. Oh well, sorry, 571 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 4: well no, you owe me more than that. I don't 572 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 4: want money. You go to prison, now, you know that's 573 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 4: what you should do. How many other people did you 574 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 4: do this too? Was this the only one you got 575 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 4: caught in? And that's just one, one time era, one 576 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 4: prosecutor in one city. How often does this happen all 577 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 4: over the United States, over the world. This is the 578 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 4: first time since conference that I've been to. I was 579 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 4: shocked by how many axon rees there are. I thought 580 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 4: it was only a couple, you know, or like ten 581 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 4: or fifteen, which is still that's still too many. Now, 582 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 4: if this was an airline, statistically speaking, if this was 583 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 4: an airline they had planes crashing, they would shut it 584 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 4: down and fix it immediately. They're being outrage everywhere. Something 585 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 4: has to change. This has got to be fixed. 586 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: I also want to point out that these people who 587 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: were making these decisions to reprosecute, or at least we're 588 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: threatening to reprosecute the Clay. We're more than happy to 589 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: spend countless more tax dollars on a ridiculous sham trial, 590 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: a second ridiculous sham trial, but we're somehow so protective 591 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: of the idea that we wouldn't want to use those 592 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: same tax dollars to compensate this man. 593 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: It's a little more complicated for one reason, and that's 594 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 3: something we've kind of missed over in that it's my 595 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 3: original prosecutor. See, as you've known, they have various laws 596 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 3: for set amounts of conversation when someone's determined wrongly convicted, 597 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 3: and you can't prosecute a prosecutor if they're just doing 598 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 3: their job within the limits of the law. But if 599 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: they violate the law, you can take that out and 600 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 3: sue for untold amounts. And that's what we proved. My 601 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 3: original prosecutor broke the law, like withholding evidence that presenting 602 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 3: testimony that she knew was false. So we had special earrings. 603 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 3: Went to the bar. She was found guilty, but I 604 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: caa'head the bar protect themselves and they they have a punishment, 605 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 3: but it was considered what do they call a private 606 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 3: sense or something that they wouldn't tell us what they 607 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 3: did to her. She still remained a current DA in 608 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 3: another county at that time. 609 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: Listen whether or not they want to put it in 610 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: a legal document. I don't think there's any sane or 611 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: rational person that believes you had anything to do with 612 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: this crime. The good news is you're here. You're never 613 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: going back, and I'm glad that we're here to put 614 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: a sort of a stamp on it and tell this 615 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: story in the way that you've told it today. Okay, 616 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: and now we have a tradition it's called closing arguments. 617 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: First of all, I think both of you again, Jason 618 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: Craig from the Innocence Project, Clay Chabeau, Dona Ree for 619 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: being here and sharing your story. And then I'm going 620 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: to turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair, 621 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: and turn it over to you guys for any final 622 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: thoughts you want to share with me and our audience. 623 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: As is also traditional, Jason, We're going to let you 624 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: go first and then have the man himself take us out. 625 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: Excellent, Jason, Thank you, and thank you for your team 626 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 2: for doing the podcast. I think it's super important to 627 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: share these stories. So I guess i'd just say this 628 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: when I see Clay, or particularly when I'm here at 629 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 2: these annual conferences and see hundreds of people who have 630 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: overcome similar challenges, I'm reminded by some of the people 631 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: who didn't have the same strength to get to the end, 632 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: or didn't have the same time because their life just 633 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: ended in prison, or gave up. Had Clay not had 634 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: the fortitude to keep fighting, to write the next letter, 635 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: to just say no, I'm not going to stop right now, 636 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: so Clay, just like everyone who's here at this conference, 637 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:07,479 Speaker 2: they're the strongest people who we know. If Clay couldn't 638 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: keep going, if Clay couldn't figure out how to live 639 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 2: the next day in prison, just like everyone who's here 640 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: at the conference now, had they not had the fortitude 641 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: to keep going. We wouldn't know their story, we wouldn't 642 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: be able to tell their story. And so I guess 643 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: the closing thought that I wanted to see is, you know, 644 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: when I see Clay sitting here, I see the hundreds 645 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: or thousands of additional people who some of us know 646 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 2: them very well because we worked on their cases and 647 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: we could never get them to the innocence finish line. 648 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: They still are in prison, or tragically they died in prison. 649 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 2: And I think that seeing Clay here everyone else here 650 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: is absolutely wonderful and energizing, and it's a reminder of 651 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: the additional work we can do and some of the 652 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: work that we can't do because those cases will never 653 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: be identified. We'll just never know about thousands of people 654 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: who have the same tragedy, but we won't know their names. 655 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 3: Mine would be for the public decide, people to wake 656 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 3: up and recognize that, you know, they have the power 657 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 3: to assess the evidence as it's presented to them, not 658 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 3: just accept what the prosecutors tell them. And just keep 659 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 3: this in mind because these things, at least they're coming 660 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: more to like because of scientific DNA evidence has made 661 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 3: it conclusive, fully proven. But just remember this. It could 662 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 3: be your brother, your sister, your mother, your father that's 663 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 3: on that stand next time being accused. You know, if 664 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 3: you think you just walk in there and you want 665 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 3: to go home, you don't really want to delve into it, 666 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 3: just remember, let's gild be you next time. 667 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 668 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis, 669 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 670 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. 671 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 672 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 673 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 674 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 675 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flahm. Ronvel Conviction is 676 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 677 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one