1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeartRadio. What could doctor Ruth, Serena Williams and 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: Pamela Anderson possibly have in common? They are all subjects 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: of My Guest Today. Documentary filmmaker Ryan White, The Emmy 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: nominated director, takes on a dizzyingly wide range of projects, 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: from the Mars Rover to the fight for gay marriage 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: to the unsolved murder of a nun in Baltimore. The 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: most recent project is Pamela A Love Story. It's a 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: re examination of nineties bombshell Pamela Anderson and the major 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: events of her life, from her rise to fame to 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: the leak of her stolen's sex tape with then husband 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: Tommy Lee. 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I had a lot of respect. 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: Would you want to be a serious actress. I'm a 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:02,319 Speaker 2: serious actress. I had to make a career out of 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: the pieces left. But I'm not the damsel in distress. 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: I put myself in crazy situations and survived though. I 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: don't care what people think, because that's the only choice 19 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: I had. If I care what people think, it wouldn't 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: be here. So men think, oh, she's the playboy, thanger, 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 2: the sexual person, and they hate you for being something else. 22 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, The Baywatch Star retreated from The Spotlight 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: to Vancouver Island, Canada. Much of the film takes place 24 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: there and features a makeup free version of the actress, 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: along with personal journals and home video. It's Anderson at 26 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: her most raw and vulnerable, with White's insight into a 27 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: different side of Anderson. I wanted to know why he 28 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: thought she kept up the centerfold persona for so much 29 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: of her career. 30 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 3: Well, I think she would say that she got stuck 31 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 3: in a caricature that she could not break out of. 32 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 3: And I think finally with this film coming out, you know, 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: and pulling away at that caricature. But one of the 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 3: things I love most about Pamela is, you know you 35 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: mentioned what could have been? Is that Pamela does not 36 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: spend a lot of the real estate in her mind 37 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 3: dedicated to what could have been. She's always looking forward, 38 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: which makes for a very difficult documentary subject at times 39 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 3: because she doesn't she doesn't want to reflect a lot 40 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 3: on the past or regrets or you know, some of 41 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: those heavier things that she went through in her life. 42 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: She's a very I always I always relate Pamela to 43 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: like a fairy. She's kind of floating through the world 44 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 3: and always looking forward, and so I think that's more 45 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 3: important to her than anything else. And I don't think 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: you know. One of the things I also love about 47 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: Pamela is she's not incredibly ambitious. She'll be the first. 48 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: We're done, We're done the same subjects, because you just 49 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: said it all. 50 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 3: She never she never really wanted a career that bad. 51 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 3: She doesn't love acting, she likes she's an artist like 52 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 3: which is which is sort of ironic because I don't 53 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: think anyone thinks of or most people don't think of 54 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 3: Pamela Anderson as an artist. But she really does have 55 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: an artist's brain, and she loves the artistic collaboration. So 56 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: even if she's modeling, say, one of Pamela's best friends 57 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 3: is the photographer David la Chappelle, and she told me that, 58 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: you know, she drives David crazy because she's never interested 59 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: in seeing the photographs after they take them. And to her, 60 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: it's because that process of modeling is all about the 61 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 3: collaboration with the artist in that case David, and that's 62 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: what she enjoys and she doesn't really care about the 63 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,559 Speaker 3: final product, and she was very similar in making this documentary. 64 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 3: She didn't care about the documentary product at all. She 65 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: just enjoyed the hanging out part, the artistic collaboration part. 66 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: I feel similarly and not too you know, intrude with 67 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: my own life. But it's interesting that I relate to 68 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: that because it's like someone would say, you want to 69 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: come watch a cut of the film, and I'd say no, 70 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: and to varying degrees, the directors and producers and people 71 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: would look at me like they were like mildly aghast. 72 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: They were like, you don't want to watch a cut 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: of the film, And I'm like, well, what do you mean? 74 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: Are you going to take my notes? So the sun 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: approached you, you weren't leaning toward doing a documentary. 76 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 3: He pitched you, He pitched me, and I actually said no, 77 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: thank you. At the beginning. You know, I'm born in 78 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one, so mathematically that means Pamela is like 79 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 3: the most famous person in the world. As I'm coming 80 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 3: of age in my adolescent years in the mid nineties. 81 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: So I also, like, I think a lot of people 82 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 3: came with these preconceived notions about who she would be. 83 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 3: And that's I spent a lot of my time saying 84 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 3: no to making celebrity documentaries, and it's because of what 85 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 3: I thought Pamela it would be that usually these huge celebrities, 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 3: especially if her icon status, have a big team of 87 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 3: people around them, of agents and managers. 88 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: Was it like that with Serena? 89 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: No? 90 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: And that was part of the appeal of making the 91 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 3: film about Serena as well. There were a lot of 92 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 3: people around Serena, but Serena is autonomous. She did the 93 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: deciding yes exactly. 94 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: So the son pitched you, he did, And what convinced 95 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: you after you would think you were leaning toward no, 96 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: what convinced. 97 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 3: You a zoom conversation with Pamela is what convinced me. 98 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 3: So I had this lunch with Brandon, who's Pamela's son, 99 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 3: and I think the subtext that you can't say out 100 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 3: loud today when you're hiring people of that lunch was 101 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: they were looking for a gig documentary director because I 102 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 3: think they had tried out other directors and they just 103 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: weren't the right fit. And most of Pamela's best friends, 104 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: you know, she doesn't have a lot of people in 105 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 3: her inner circle, but most of her best friends are 106 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 3: Dan Matthews, David la Chappelle, gay men. So I think 107 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: Brandon couldn't say that out loud to me. 108 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: And do you think right right? And do you think 109 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: that that's a I'm not a calling card. I think 110 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: that's an advantage you have. 111 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't know if it's my sexuality necessarily that 112 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: makes them comfortable. But you know, I also grew up 113 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 3: in a house of women of like a single mom 114 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 3: and a grandma and an older sister. 115 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: Where did you grow up. 116 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: In Georgia outside of Atlanta? 117 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: Where'd you go to college? 118 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,679 Speaker 3: I went to college at Duke, which has the Center 119 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: for Documentary Studies. So I studied all fields of documentary 120 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: at Duke. 121 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you immersed yourself from that. Did you 122 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: You knew then you wanted to go in that direction? 123 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: Yeah. I wanted to be a filmmaker because I loved 124 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: I loved films growing up. I didn't even know documentaries 125 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 3: were a thing. It's not like they were playing, you know, 126 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 3: at the megaplex in Georgia. 127 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to talk about that later, the expansion 128 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: of documentaries into real programming. So you're there studying and 129 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: when you get out, do you go to more education 130 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: beyond that you go right to work. 131 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 3: No, I'm like the only one of my friends that 132 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 3: didn't go to graduate school. I went straight to work 133 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: for you know. Two thousand and four is when I 134 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 3: graduated from college, and there weren't a lot of jobs 135 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 3: in the documentary space. There were, you know, very few, 136 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: very few positions to be had. We were known as 137 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: the broccoli of filmmaking, you know, where you don't want 138 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 3: to but it's good for you. And so I worked 139 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: for one of the very few filmmakers who was hiring 140 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: at the time. Her name was Sherry Jones. She actually 141 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: just passed away last year, but I kind of learned 142 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 3: underneath her. She was one of the very few filmmakers 143 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 3: who had her own company at the time because it 144 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: was hard to make a living, and she basically made 145 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: like frontliney type PBS documentaries or Bill Moyer's specials or 146 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 3: Peter Jennings specials. But that was my first job, and 147 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: I learned under her, and I learned how to run 148 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: a business. 149 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: You were in New York. 150 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 3: It was in Washington, d C. Actually, wow, but New 151 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 3: York really was the hubbit at the time. It's moved 152 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: a lot over to Los Angeles since I've been in 153 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 3: my career, but yeah, that was where I kind of 154 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 3: cut my teeth was under Sherry Jones. 155 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: What is the movie Palada? Your first one was called Palada. 156 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: It was It's a documentary about pickup soccer, street soccer 157 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: all over the world that we filmed in twenty five countries, 158 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 3: which is totally absurd, Like, the only the type of 159 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: film that you would think you can pull off at 160 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 3: twenty five years old. If a twenty five year old 161 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: were coming to me now that I would say, that's insane. 162 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: You know, I can see are you trying to raise money? 163 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: You're like, I want to do leave about soccer, and 164 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: they're like, well, where is it? Said? 165 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: You go everywhere everywhere. 166 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to go everywhere that soccer is and make 167 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: a movie about it. So after you do that, what's 168 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: the first movie you do, Whether it's a pitch from 169 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: you or someone's commissioning you were approaching, what's the first 170 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: movie you have where you've got a real budget? Who 171 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: was it for? 172 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: It was my third film that was for HBO, where 173 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: Sheila Evans was the head of HBO. At the time, 174 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: and she is, you know, the the godmother of ADUs. 175 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: Oh you did, She's the best. Yeah. It felt like 176 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 3: I had gotten the golden ticket when Sheila bought my film. 177 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 3: I made a film about gay marriage that came out 178 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 3: I think twenty fourteen, but I started making it Case 179 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: against eight, Case against eight, So it was about Proposition eight, 180 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: which passed in two thousand and eight when Obama was 181 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: elect did so Case. 182 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: Against eight has great resonance for you. You're at Sundance, 183 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: you're nominated for two m's. Is that correct? Yes, and 184 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: you're shortlisted for the Oscar. Yes to everything I'm assuming 185 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: changes after that. 186 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: It did, and also the documentary landscape was changing after that. 187 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 3: That was like the year that Netflix was emerging and streamers, 188 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: you know, were kind of a glimmer in our eye 189 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: at that point. But the real changing factor for me 190 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 3: a Case Against Eight was very successful critically, but I 191 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 3: followed that up with a documentary series for Netflix called 192 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: The Keepers, which was about the murder of a nun 193 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 3: in Baltimore, but basically cover ups of the Catholic church, 194 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: which is you know, no yeah, no revolutionary story, but 195 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: it was in the it was in the era of 196 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: Netflix where there just wasn't the overabundance of content. It 197 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 3: was the follow up to Making a Murder, It was 198 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 3: it was the next true crime series on Netflix after that. 199 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: So there was such a huge captive audience. So the 200 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: amount of people that tuned in for The Keepers was 201 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: mind blowing for me as a documentary film maker. 202 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: Eventually you get to the point where you start doing 203 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: these biographical ones. You do, Doctor Ruth West, Is that 204 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: your first one, Doctor Ruth? 205 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 3: I think I did Serena before, Doctor Ruth. 206 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: Oh, you did shoot it before, so let's talk about that. 207 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: So Serena, I would imagine that someone who is as 208 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: I always have a different metric which is not just 209 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: successful and monolithic in their career, but they deserve it. 210 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: She's earned everything that's come her way. I mean I 211 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: was there at the US up them when she freaked 212 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: out on the judge. I was there in the President's box. 213 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: Did you find that the yin and yang of the intensity? 214 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 1: Because athletes are people who have to turn on a 215 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: level of aggression you and I can't even imagine, and 216 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: then turn it off exactly. 217 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 3: But she could turn that on playing cards with you 218 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 3: as well. Yeah, Parade so she that's just in that's 219 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 3: in Serena's DNA in a way that I've never seen before. 220 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 3: You know, I'm the exact same age as Serena. She's 221 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: I think a couple weeks younger than me. So being 222 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 3: around her was so it was so fascinating because she 223 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: was so youthful. I think there's some arrested development when 224 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: you're when you get really famous and successful at something 225 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 3: when you're a teenager. And so Serena has this infectious 226 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 3: spirit unless she's playing a game, and tennis included. That's 227 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 3: like she is one of the most fun people to 228 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: be around outside of a tennis court. And so yeah, 229 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 3: that there is a switch in her and even you know, 230 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: even in practicing tennis, she was so intense. 231 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: Who broke with that? Who broke that production? You pitched 232 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: them or they came to you. 233 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: Well that was interesting because that was before the documentary heyday. 234 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: And you know, I hate even talking about this documentary 235 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 3: because it's literally unavailable now we talk about the shifting 236 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 3: Landscape of documentary was made by Epics, and Epics had 237 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 3: a license at some point which lapsed and now there's 238 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: actually no way to watch that documentary. 239 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: You see the Suina doc. 240 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, unless I send you a Vimeo link, it's currently 241 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: not on any of the streamers, and it's because the 242 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: license laps and it didn't go to one of the streams. 243 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 3: So I mean, it's one of it's probably I love 244 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 3: Serena and I love tennis, so it's probably one of 245 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 3: my favorite films. I think I've made fifteen and I 246 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: got to be there during the craziest year of Serena's life, 247 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 3: and she let me the craziest year of her career 248 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 3: at least, and she let me film everything craziest. Why 249 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: because it was the best year of her career and 250 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 3: then it ended in the biggest failure. That was the 251 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 3: year that she won the first three Grand Slams was 252 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: at the US Open. The field had totally opened up. 253 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 3: She just had to beat two kind of unseeded, no 254 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 3: name Italian women to win the Calendar Slam. It was 255 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: gonna be the first Calendar Slams in thirty years labor. Yeah, 256 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 3: and she lost in the semi final to Roberta Vinci. 257 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 3: I was there on the court with her filming and 258 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: it was the biggest you know, there's a part in 259 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 3: my film where I'm just in bed with her afterwards, 260 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 3: and she's talking about being such an embarrassment to the 261 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 3: entire country. And so to me, that film is incredibly 262 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: special because I had never seen an athlete of her stature, 263 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 3: let a filmmaker that close to the process and be 264 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 3: that vulnerable to the pain, the pain and that the 265 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 3: ups and the downs. And you know, that's where I 266 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 3: think Serena is. Serena, Doctor Ruth and Pamela I consider 267 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: very similar, even though it's totally different fields. 268 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: Only you could make a statement like that house so well. 269 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 3: They're great documentary subjects in the sense that they have 270 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: they've all been through, they've been you know, chewed up 271 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 3: and spit out by society, Pamela and Serena more so 272 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: than doctor Ruth, I think, But they're they don't really 273 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 3: care that much how they're perceived, because they've had the 274 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: worst things said about them, and so they're very unashamed 275 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 3: about who they are. And so that's like when you 276 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 3: have a non controlling documentary subject who's just allowing you 277 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: to be everywhere, which both Serena and Pamela did. That's 278 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 3: where the really good stuff comes from, I think, is 279 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 3: opposed to when you have agents and managers and publicists 280 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 3: circling you and saying, don't say this, don't say that. 281 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 3: If Serena's told that, she would say, I'm going to 282 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: say what I want to say now. 283 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: I would imagine we'll just choose these two examples of 284 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: how parapatetic. The Sermena williams Is of the world are 285 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: traveling in the world everywhere, go go go, tournament, tennis appearances, whatever. 286 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: Her whole bouquet is of activities, and there's Pamela sitting 287 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: by the river. You know what I mean. Did you 288 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: have to chase Serena around the world to film her? 289 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean I basically made that film myself because 290 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: I didn't have a crew because Serena is so on 291 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 3: the go. You know, you can't. You can't with a 292 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 3: sound person and a camera track jump in a tar 293 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 3: with Serena or on a private plane. So that movie's 294 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: just basically me with my camera alongside Serena the whole way. 295 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: Pamela is actually quite similar. Like you would think the 296 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 3: bigger the documentary subject or the bigger the fame, that 297 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 3: the bigger the crew would be, or the more overproduced 298 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: the celebrity would want it to be one of the 299 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: things I loved about Pamela from the beginning when we 300 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 3: had initial conversations like that zoom, she wanted to do 301 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 3: something totally stripped down, in bare bones. Pamela hates watching 302 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: celebrity documentaries and I hate them do to be honest, 303 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: like the overproduced ones that feel like these glossy, you know, 304 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 3: one interview portraits. And so we did that film very 305 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: very stripped down, small crew, no lights at all, you know. 306 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 3: I remember asking Brandon her Son, like, like, what do 307 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 3: we need for a hair and makeup budget, and like, 308 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 3: how do we deal with that in Vancouver Island? And 309 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 3: he burst into laughter and said, my mom's gonna do 310 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 3: her own hair and makeup. She has her entire career. 311 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: And so she constantly challenged those preconceived notions I had 312 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: of her probably being, you know, this larger than life, 313 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: perhaps more difficult personality, and she was incredibly easy to 314 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 3: work with in that way. 315 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: Director Ryan White. If you enjoy conversations with insightful documentary directors, 316 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: check out my episode with the most recent winner of 317 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: the Academy Award for Feature Documentary, Daniel Rher. 318 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 4: You asked quite a pointy question and that's whether or not, 319 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 4: like say, actually has a reasonable chance of ever becoming president. 320 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 4: And what he spoke to was the Moscow mayoral race 321 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 4: of twenty thirteen. He started that race with two percent 322 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 4: of the vote. People didn't like him. They caricatured him 323 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 4: as just a blogger and some wacky internet guy, and 324 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 4: he finished with twenty seven percent of the vote. It 325 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 4: wasn't a fair election. There was malfeasans and I think 326 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 4: the Kremlin who let him run an election was so 327 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: nervous about his performance. He ran an American style campaign. 328 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 4: He was kissing babies, knocking on doors in the subways, 329 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 4: distributing literature, tens of thousands of volunteers. There has never 330 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 4: been a political organization in Russia like that. 331 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 3: They were afraid. 332 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 4: I don't know if the guy will be president, but 333 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 4: what I hope, at the very least is that he 334 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 4: will have the chance to compete in the democratic election. 335 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with NAVALNY director Daniel Rohr, 336 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: go to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, 337 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: Ryan White speculates on the impact that filming the document 338 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: Henry had on Pamela Anderson's life. I'm Alec Baldwin and 339 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing. One of the themes 340 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: of documentary filmmaker Ryan White's Pamela A Love Story is 341 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: the roller coaster of Pamela Anderson's love life. The film 342 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: examines her relationships with rockers Tommy Lee and Kid Rock 343 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: and her most recent brief marriage to contractor Dan Hayhurst 344 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: the fifth for the actress, I wanted to know what 345 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: Ryan White discovered about Anderson's search for true love from 346 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: working on the film. 347 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: She's always looking for some things, a spark, and that 348 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: spark is often combustible, as it was with Tommy and 349 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 3: I think it's a spark. It's too combustible. And she 350 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 3: knows that it's the type of relationship that is unsustainable 351 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 3: because there's too much passion at the center of it. 352 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 3: But that's always what she's seeking out. But I'm curious, 353 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 3: like watching the film, though, did you? Because for me, 354 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: as someone who got to inherit all Pamela's archive and 355 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 3: get to watch all of these tapes and the you know, 356 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: the stolen sex tape has gone down in infamy, but 357 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 3: getting to watch all these other tapes that they had 358 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 3: shot of each other, and I hope the film does 359 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 3: this in some ways. I hope it also strips the 360 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 3: caricature of Tommy a little bit, where he's a human being. 361 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 3: And when you watch the tapes of you know, them 362 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 3: just falling in love or starting a family or once 363 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 3: they have kids, I think that passed out rocker fades 364 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 3: away a little bit and you get to see the 365 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 3: real hymn. 366 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: I was never quite sure with them what was real 367 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: and what was them just performing, you know what I mean, 368 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: Like like you can tell that. I mean, I think 369 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: one of the most tragic things because the sex tape thing, 370 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: you know, the Kardashian Empire, which is now calculated in 371 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: the billions of dollars, is founded on a sex tape 372 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: that's not kid ourselves. Then you tell the story of 373 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: the safe. They never found out who did it? Did they? 374 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 3: Well, there's theories about who did it, and there's a 375 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 3: whole Hulu show about some of those theories. But we 376 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: actually have a line in the film that Pamela says 377 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 3: where she says, I don't care who stole it. I 378 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 3: don't need to figure that out at this point, And 379 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: I think that's incredibly unimportant to her. The who it's 380 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 3: just it did what it did to her life, and 381 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 3: the who is not that important to her. 382 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: Well, then that leads me to when she meets a 383 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: solid citizen. She marries that guy, who's the guy that 384 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: lives up there near her what was his name, Dan? Dan? 385 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: And that didn't work. You think, why that didn't last? Why? 386 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 3: Well, this is an interesting example. You know, you learn 387 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 3: in film school or like documentary one oh one, that 388 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 3: your job as a filmmaker is to not affect the 389 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 3: person's trajectory in any way. You know, you hear these 390 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: terms like cinema verite or fly on the wall. This 391 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 3: was a glaring example of the films that I've made 392 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 3: were the mere fact that I was making a movie change. 393 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 3: It stirred something up in Pamela that even the very 394 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 3: first shoot I had with her in Canada, that's when 395 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 3: she's watching those tapes of her and Tommy's life basically, 396 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 3: and she's just plugging them into the VCR and watching. 397 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 3: She was going through this emotional turmoil. She had never 398 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 3: watched those tapes, and she's looking at me saying, like, 399 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 3: what the fuck am I doing here? I thought I 400 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 3: was coming here to die. I was marrying a local 401 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 3: I thought this was going to be the end of 402 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: my life, and I'm watching the best years of my life. 403 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 3: You know, I think she's self aware enough to know 404 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 3: that she's seeing that through rose tinted glasses now and 405 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 3: that even you know, watching those things in retrospect, she's 406 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 3: overlooking a lot of the darkness that was during those years. 407 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 3: But it stirred something up in her where, you know. 408 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 3: I don't want to say the film caused a divorce, 409 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 3: but it definitely precipitated her and saying like, this is 410 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 3: not the final thirty years of my life. I need 411 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 3: to get out of here. 412 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: So she doesn't like to watch the movie. She doesn't 413 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: like to see the movie. Did her son watch the movie? 414 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: I assume so. 415 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: Brandon produced the movie, so she watched cuts as we 416 00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 3: went along. 417 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: Did he have any editorial control? No? Did he seek 418 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: any editorial control? 419 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 3: No? And I'm I mean he gave me notes, but 420 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 3: they were actually good notes. This is the benefit of 421 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 3: Usually producing a film with the son of the subject 422 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: would be a nightmare. Sure, and I thought this might 423 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 3: be a nightmare. I knew that was going to be 424 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 3: kind of rolling the dice. But it's also the benefit 425 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 3: of making a film about the child of a couple 426 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 3: who've been the center of the tabloids for thirty years. 427 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 3: Is they just don't really care. So the things I 428 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 3: thought he would be really sensitive about, like his mom 429 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: maybe well nudity for sure, but also his mom may 430 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 3: be saying inappropriate thing here or there, or joking about 431 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 3: other husbands or her sex life. Brandon was fine with 432 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 3: all of that. So yeah, no, he didn't. He didn't change. 433 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 3: I'm very lucky as a filmmaker. I haven't had a 434 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: bad experience yet with a distributor or any producers ever, 435 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: not letting me make what I want to make. And 436 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: Ben Pamela herself was just so uninterested. So she did 437 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 3: watch it once after the film was and I think 438 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 3: she only kind of half watched it because she even 439 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 3: when I talk to her now, she still doesn't realize 440 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 3: some of the things that are in the film. And 441 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: she watched it with her son Dylan at Netflix while 442 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 3: the film the film was already coming out and she 443 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: was doing press, and Brandon said like, Mom, you're you're 444 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 3: answering these questions in such weird ways because you don't 445 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 3: know what's in the film. Will you just watch it 446 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 3: and Dylan hadn't seen it yet either, because Dylan wasn't 447 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: a producer, So they watch it together in a little 448 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 3: room at Netflix. Netflix asked me if I wanted to 449 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 3: be there, and I said hell no, And apparently it 450 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: was just well, first of all, there's a lot of 451 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: nudity in the film, so it was a lot of 452 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 3: Pamela covering Dylan's eyes, is what I've heard from people 453 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 3: in the room. And she took a few bathroom breaks 454 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: even while the film kept playing, so she still, you know, 455 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: like like you see in the film. She gave me 456 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: every single diary from her entire life. I have them 457 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 3: in a closet with a coded lock on them. And 458 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 3: she had no idea what I was going to use, 459 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 3: how I was going to use it. And she's still 460 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: because she's only half watched the film, doesn't really. 461 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: David NuGen and I produced The Summer Dock to be 462 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: programed for you in East Hampton, and let's say, going 463 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: back to fifteen years ago, they would fire the starter's 464 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: pistol at Sundance. The latest crop of the of the 465 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: more exciting docs was announced and screened at Sundance, and 466 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: then we had a relatively easy time booking three, sometimes 467 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: four of them, but now if there's twelve, we have 468 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: our eye on good God, we consider ourselves lucky we 469 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: can get two or three of them. They're old to 470 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: selling like hotcakes. Do you find that explosion is a 471 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: part of your career as well? 472 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, and that's that's a lot of people 473 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 3: talk about Sundance now and the lack of truly independent 474 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 3: films because so many documentaries over the last few years 475 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 3: that have gotten into Sundance had distribution already, even if 476 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 3: it's not super public, like I've had films. I think 477 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: I've had four films at Sundance, and there's been times 478 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 3: I've been at Sundance where you don't know my film 479 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: has a distributor attached. It might seem like a free agent, 480 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 3: but it's not. And I think Sundance is doing a 481 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 3: good job of moving back a little bit more to 482 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 3: independent filmmakers. Not that not that I'm thrilled about that, 483 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 3: because usually my films do come with distribution at this 484 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 3: point in my career, So I don't want it to 485 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 3: get harder to get into sun Dance just because I 486 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 3: have a Netflix or an Amazon behind me. But I 487 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 3: think we're seeing like an EBB and flow in the 488 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 3: documentary industry. And I don't want to get too nitty gritty, 489 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 3: but like recently we've seen a lot of documentary units 490 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 3: shut down, like at HBO, Max, CNN Films, Showtime, Zoom shutdown. Yeah, 491 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 3: and they just made NAVALNI, which won the Oscar and 492 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: so the documentary part of CNN Films is shutting down. 493 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 3: And so we're also seeing this constriction that at least 494 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 3: for people in my world, is a little concerning because 495 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: you know, like back when I made the case against Date, 496 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: Sheila and Evans, like that was the golden ticket, like 497 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 3: I said, but that was one of the only distributors 498 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: at the time unless you went the theatrical route, where 499 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 3: your film got a lot of attention because Sheila was 500 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 3: so powerful at HBO. And then there was you know, 501 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 3: the birth of all of the streamers, which was incredible 502 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 3: for the last ten years. But now we're seeing that again. 503 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 3: So I don't know anywhere, especially, I'm interested to hear 504 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 3: you say it's hard for you guys to even get 505 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 3: three or four films, because I think what we're seeing 506 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 3: now is a lot, especially a lot of the political 507 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 3: films or hard hitting films are a harder cell, like 508 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 3: the things that Shila would have taken on at HBO 509 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 3: ten or fifteen years ago, those are often the ones. Assassins. 510 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: It's a great example, you know, that was one of 511 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 3: the very few films where I eked out a sale 512 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 3: of that film. I almost lost a lot of money 513 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: making that film. Not because people didn't love it. All 514 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 3: the distributors loved it, but they were afraid of it. 515 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 3: They were afraid why because it was about North Korea, 516 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 3: because of the Sony hack. No one wanted to touch 517 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 3: a film that was going after Kim Jong Un. No 518 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 3: one wanted to go after a film. Geopolitics are really 519 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 3: difficult right now. 520 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: Director Ryan White, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a 521 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on 522 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio apps, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 523 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 3: Back. 524 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: Ryan White shares the movie that inspired him to become 525 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: a documentary filmmaker. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening 526 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing. Director Ryan White helmed one of 527 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: my favorite documentaries of all time, Assassins. It traces the 528 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: murder of Kim Jong UN's half brother Kim Jong nam, 529 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: and the subsequent trial of his killers. The film needs 530 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: to be seen to be believed. Considering the near total 531 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: lack of diplomatic relations with North Korea. I wanted to 532 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,479 Speaker 1: know how White managed to pull off a film with 533 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: such a challenging subject matter. 534 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 3: I came across it because I went to Duke, and 535 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: a journalist who had gone to Duke, who was what's 536 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 3: much younger than me, had written an article in GQ 537 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 3: magazine that had been very popular in whatever year that was, 538 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 3: like twy eighteen, and he approached me because he was 539 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: getting a ton of documentary interests because True crime was 540 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen was huge, and this was 541 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 3: like true Crime on steroids. It involved Kim Jong un, 542 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 3: It involved a prank show, it involved female assassins, involved 543 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 3: a capital punishment trial that was happening, And so I 544 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 3: flew with the journalists to Malaysia where this trial was happening, 545 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 3: and met all of his sources, basically all the people 546 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 3: who had played a role in recruiting these women to 547 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 3: be on the so called prank show. Because the women 548 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 3: were saying, yes, we assassinated this man, but we thought 549 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: we were on a prank show when we did the assassination. 550 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 3: It's unbelievable. It's literally unbelievable. But as we started peeling 551 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 3: back the layers we started and meeting the people who 552 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 3: were a part of recruiting them, it seemed I don't 553 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 3: know about believable, but it seemed conceivable at least that 554 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 3: maybe they were telling the truth. And then it became 555 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 3: a film that was about life or death. Like I knew, 556 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 3: I was making a film that would probably prove that 557 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 3: these women were innocent. But if I didn't finish the 558 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 3: film in time, I needed the film ready to go 559 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 3: in case they were convicted, because they were going to 560 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 3: be hung almost immediately in the Malaysian court system. So 561 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 3: it was a very it was very heavy film to 562 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 3: make and not to ruin the ending, but luckily both 563 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 3: women got off at like the eleventh hour, you know. 564 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 3: Like I said, I thought I had struck gold with 565 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 3: that film because it was true crime, but it was 566 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 3: on a geopolitical level. I thought who distributed that In 567 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 3: the end, It was a company called Greenwich. No streamers, 568 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 3: no streamers. 569 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: Where can you find it now? 570 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: I think it's on Stars, but none of the streamers 571 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 3: would even put it on their platform, much less make it. 572 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,239 Speaker 3: You know, a yeah, yeah, it's it's It was a 573 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: It was a film that nobody wanted to touch. And 574 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 3: unfortunately I learned a lot of lessons from making that 575 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 3: film on how you for example, Well like in Avalney, 576 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 3: for instance, Daniel pulled off something very brave and incredible. 577 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 3: But now that distributor doesn't exist anymore, I don't know 578 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 3: where you would take an evalni now, so touching you know, 579 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: North Korea, Russia, China, these countries, it's more and more difficult. 580 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 3: You can make those films, but are they going to 581 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 3: find a home? Are they going to and if they 582 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 3: can't find a home, are they going to find an audience? 583 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 3: And knowing that we all spend at least a couple 584 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 3: of years, if not five or six years making our films, 585 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 3: to think that they'll just you know, be a tree 586 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: falling in the forest, I think is all of our 587 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 3: worst nightmares as filmmakers. 588 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: Well, it's also, like you said, you're right, the arc 589 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: of that film is kind of a specific, which is 590 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: it goes from being like mysterious, you don't know what's 591 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: going on here, to being downright silly to being like 592 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: crushing at the end, like you really think they're going 593 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: to I mean I was, I was really thinking if 594 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: I stopped the film and said, okay, everybody, let's bet 595 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: what happens, I would have bet they were going to 596 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: be killed. 597 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 3: That's what everyone was telling us. Everybody on the ground 598 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 3: was saying, they're going to die. 599 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: Now have you only shot digital your entire career? Did 600 00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: you ever shoot film? 601 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 3: Well, we shot some film with Pamela actually, ironically so 602 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 3: my last film. I shot some film, But I've never 603 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 3: shot a full document like I give me shelter type 604 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 3: of You don't felt fully on film. Oh I would 605 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 3: love to, but the budgets don't support it. Also, my 606 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 3: style of filmmaking doesn't really support it. Like I can't 607 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 3: jumping on a private plane with Serena with my little camera. 608 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 3: I can't do that with tons of mags. Yeah, yeah, 609 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 3: and I shoot a ton, you know, and most so 610 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 3: do most of my colleagues at this point. 611 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: For you, I'm sure there's a lot of films that 612 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: you're considering. You probably get a lot of pots on 613 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: the stove. Have you ever examined the subject and you 614 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: thought you were going to make the movie and then 615 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: you cut out. You didn't do it. 616 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 3: Only one time. And I still feel incredibly guilty about it. 617 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: Can you say that? 618 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was a long time ago. It 619 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 3: was early in my career, but I started making a 620 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: very Aaron Brockovich type of story about a community that 621 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,719 Speaker 3: had been built on top of an old shell oil 622 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 3: reservoir basically, and it's your unfortunately it's your Diama Dozen 623 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 3: environmental terrorism store, and it's you know, people getting cancer 624 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 3: and not realizing why, and then they realized they're living 625 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 3: on top of an oil field. And it was such 626 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 3: a bleak subject. 627 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: Matter what part of the country. 628 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 3: It was near LA in Carson, California, just south of LA, 629 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 3: and it was just such a bleak subject matter. I 630 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 3: couldn't raise any money to do it, and I'd started 631 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 3: shooting it, and then I had to go to all 632 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 3: these people that were my characters and say, like, I'm 633 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 3: bowing out. And I still like even saying that. I 634 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 3: hate saying it out loud right now because I still 635 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 3: feel very guilty about it. But I'm very careful now 636 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 3: in picking documentaries. You know, I can only make maybe 637 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: two things at the same time. I'm very careful at 638 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 3: picking things that I think will make it to the 639 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 3: finish line. 640 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: What are you working on next? 641 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 3: I am working I'm doing a return to true crime. 642 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: I'm actually working with Charlie's Theren on a film about 643 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 3: an incredible story about a mother who gave up her 644 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 3: daughter for adoption and then twenty years later finds out 645 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,479 Speaker 3: that her daughter went missing when she was young, and 646 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 3: she goes on this quest to find out what happened 647 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 3: to her daughter, and that kind of uncovers a serial 648 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 3: killer who was living in a small town. I really 649 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 3: resisted going back to true crime after The Keepers was 650 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 3: such a phenomenon and didn't want to be pigeonholed in 651 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 3: that way. But this is the type of true crime 652 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 3: that I love, where there's an incredible character at the 653 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 3: center of it, and Charlie's brought us the project and 654 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 3: it's very passionate about it. And I'm always trying to balance, 655 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 3: you know. I made a film last year called good 656 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 3: Night Appy, about a robot that went to Mars, and 657 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 3: it is very hopeful, very heartwarming. It's really about the 658 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 3: best parts of humanity. And I'm always trying to kind 659 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: of balance, you know, subjects that are quite dark and 660 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 3: bleak and make me feel afraid when I'm out there 661 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 3: in the field like an assassin's with something that is 662 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 3: much more fun and hopeful and can kind of bring 663 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: me and my crew because I roll the same people over, 664 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 3: my editors, my producers on the same films that can 665 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 3: kind of bring us out of that darkness in a 666 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 3: sort of Yin and Yang way. 667 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, assassins is one of my favorites. I really 668 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: mean that. It's amazing. 669 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 3: Thank you well. You were one of the few. 670 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: When you see the moment where they get him at 671 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: the airport where they do it to him, the real 672 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: moment when they do with him, you're kind of like 673 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: you just gasp, like there it is. You know they 674 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: really did this him. Now. Last question is, because I'm 675 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: such a doc junkie and I'm assuming you are too, 676 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: give me three docs that just were indelible in your 677 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: movie going history. 678 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I could give you dozens, but I'll anecdotally 679 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 3: like the film that made me a documentary filmmaker. Do 680 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 3: you know Agnes Varda, the French filmmaker who passed away recently, 681 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 3: She to me is like she's my ultimate, Like if 682 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 3: I could if I could have dinner with someone, it 683 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 3: would be her. And that's what's cool about my industry 684 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 3: is you are with an arm's length of your hero. 685 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 3: So I got to meet her many times before she 686 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: passed away. But it was seeing her film in a 687 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 3: theater at Duke when I didn't even know what documentaries were. 688 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 3: It was the film called the Gleaners, and I, well, 689 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 3: it has a French title, but that's the English translation. 690 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 3: That just blew my mind and made me want to 691 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 3: be a documentary filmmaker. And in those same years, Spellbound 692 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 3: came out, the Jeff Blitz's film about the Spelling Bee, 693 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: which totally changed my conception. Again if the Broccoli filmmaking 694 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 3: that you don't want to do it, but it's good 695 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 3: for you, where Spellbound was pure entertainment, a hilarious film, 696 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 3: a character portrait of many kids during that year's script 697 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 3: Spelling Beiece. So that one changed my conception that I 698 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 3: couldn't make things that are entertaining, which really is my 699 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 3: goal as a documentary filmmaker. I'm not an activist filmmaker. 700 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 3: I don't really make the matic films. I mostly focus 701 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 3: on character films, even if it's about a robot that 702 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 3: I hope will entertain people by going on this journey. 703 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 3: And then Laura Poitross. I don't know if you've met her, 704 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 3: but like I could go on and on about a 705 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 3: lot of her films. You know, her film this year 706 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 3: was All the Beauty and the Bloodshed, which was beautiful. 707 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 3: But I remember seeing a film of hers soon after 708 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 3: I graduated, when I was very young in the documentary 709 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 3: business called called The Oath, and that is such a 710 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 3: beautiful film. And you can tell in all of Laura's 711 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 3: films how hands on of a filmmaker she is. And 712 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 3: that's what I strive to do as a filmmaker. Like 713 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 3: I said, not huge crews. I think the smaller we are, 714 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 3: the more intimate it is, and the better performance. And 715 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 3: I'm using that in quotation marks you get out of 716 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 3: your documentary subject, even if they're as famous as Serena 717 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 3: Williams or Pamela Anderson. The more stripped down you are, 718 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 3: I think, the better results you get. And Laura Poitrous, 719 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 3: I feel like has done. She made the Edward Snowden film, 720 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 3: you know, where she's in hotel rooms with him as 721 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 3: he's fleeing, and so I think she really taught me 722 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 3: in her films a lot of that sort of diy feel, 723 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 3: which I really love. No matter how successful or how 724 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 3: big our budgets get, I still love making films in 725 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 3: that diy. I'm just carrying a camera, you know, and 726 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 3: in a room with sometimes just me with that person. 727 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: It lends itself to documentary filmmaking and its pure sense 728 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: more easily if you've got a bunch of guys setting 729 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: up a bunch of c stands and you've got a 730 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: whole lot of shit going on exactly. It's tricky. But anyway, HI, 731 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: very best to you. Thank you so much for your time. 732 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. 733 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 3: Thank you, I appreciate it. I enjoyed the conversation. 734 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: My thanks to documentary filmmaker Ryan. This episode was recorded 735 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by 736 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is 737 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich. I'm 738 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by 739 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio.