1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: Long time listeners may know the story of my introduction 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: to the cause of animal rights. I was on a 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: date with a woman who told me that she was 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: a vegetarian. I told her I was too, except I 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: wasn't yet. But life works in mysterious ways. Preventing animal 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: suffering has become one of my greatest passions, and nobody 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: was more central to that journey than my guest today. 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: Ingrid new Kirk is the co founder of People for 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: the Ethical Treatment of Animals or PETER. It may be 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: America's best known animal rights organization thanks to its formidable 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: combination of legal sophistication, scientific seriousness, and off the wall 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: publicity stunts like this one showcasing a young volunteer in 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: downtown Toronto. Folks, right now, I'm looking at an almost 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: naked woman covered in rague spaghetti sauce. Yes, it must 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: be another PETER protest. Yeah, this is our volunteers, nearly 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: naked on a point to represent that just like us, 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: animals have personalities, they're intelligent, they farm families and friendships. 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: If given the chance to understand what drives Ingrid new Kirk, 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: you have to understand something counterintuitive. Peter's focus is on 21 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: the well being of individual creatures, not species. Species have 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: come and gone throughout history, new Kirk argues, and that's okay. 23 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: She would rather see some threatened or domesticated animals go 24 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: extinct to see members of those species suffering at the 25 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: hands of hunters or farmers. For some animals, they're better 26 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: off not being managed and not being conserved, because what 27 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: happens is you reintroduce the species and then you say, okay, 28 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: now it's reached this level where we can hunt them 29 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: as if they don't have relationships, and as if they 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: as individuals aren't important. It's not about a species. It's 31 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: about to me reducing suffering. And that's the pragmatic part 32 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: is does it reduce suffering or not. We had a 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: documentary at the Hampton's Film Festival. The film was called Trophy. 34 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: It was the documentary but the South African rhino richards 35 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: name was John Hume, who has the farm in Africa, 36 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: who's trying to save the species, and the way that 37 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: he saves the species he calls horns. Yeah, and that's 38 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: a really thorny one, you know, it's thorny in a 39 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 1: number of ways. I mean, I remember when Prince Philip 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: decided long ago that we should farm spotted leopards so 41 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: that women like Jackie Kennedy was wearing a leopard coat, 42 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: that they would be farmed rather than we'd go out 43 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: into the wild and shoot them. But that doesn't take 44 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: into account the individual animals suffering. If you're taking the 45 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 1: horn off and it's harmless, I'm not sure that that's 46 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: a problem at all. But we act as if the 47 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: world is sort of a Disney park. We want some 48 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: of these, some of those, and some of the others 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: so that they're always there for us to look at 50 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: and for us to do whatever with. I'm not so 51 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: keen on saving the species as saving the individuals. Well, 52 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: to go back to the origins here of not only 53 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: myself and my relationship with you and your organization, but 54 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: your own career. You know, how did this start for you? 55 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: How well? I've always cared about animals, but where I 56 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: grew up in two places in England, mostly a little 57 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: bit in Europe and mostly in England, and then when 58 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: I was seven we went to India. But you know, 59 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: as much as Indians are supposed to care about animals. 60 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: It's sort of like Christians not cheating on their wives. 61 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: It's the same all over the world, and that's good 62 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 1: and as bad. But it didn't dawn on me. Even 63 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: though I loved animals that I was eating them, I 64 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: was wearing them. I had my first fur coat when 65 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: I was nineteen. I thought I looked like the cat's whiskers. 66 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: What your dad do? My father was a navigational engineer, 67 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: so he did war projects, who designed bombing systems. So 68 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: we would go to India to work on the Indo 69 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: China War. When I came to America and he ate 70 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: his way through the animal kingdom and took me with him. 71 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: I was like his son, you know. We tried everything, 72 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: but um much later, I had been a law enforcement officer. 73 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: I had seen cruelty to animals on factual farms Maryland. 74 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: In Montgomery County, Maryland, I was a sheriff, and so 75 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: I went That happened because first I started with a 76 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: humane society, and I thought, I want to know exactly 77 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: how to prosecute a cruelty case. So I went to 78 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 1: the Sheriff's office and they were just hiring their first 79 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: women and so I got through the door, much to 80 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: the resentment of the guys there, who thought, these women 81 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: are never going to be able to do this, and 82 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: that opened my eyes to cruelty. I went inspected laboratories, 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: went on factory farms, saw one thing after another. Found 84 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: a squirrel and a fox caught in steel traps some 85 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: kids had set behind a seven eleven. One was alive, 86 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: one was dead. And so I thought, why haven't I 87 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: connected these dots? And so I stopped eating animals, and 88 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: I stopped wearing animals, and I realized that in experimentation, 89 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: it's not just a few animals used for these wonderful 90 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: purposes to save children's lives or something who had treated 91 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: with respect. It was lousy. And I found things in 92 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: those labs that changed me forever in my perspective. And 93 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: I thought, if I didn't know this and I care 94 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: about animals, then there are a lot of people who 95 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: are just like me. I need to spread this word 96 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: and then do the homework, find out what people can 97 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: do instead of this. There were scant choices back then, 98 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: and then helped them make transitions, and that's how it began. 99 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: And had Peter been started by someone else and you 100 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: joined a group of or you phone. I founded it 101 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: and then I wrote Alex check O in and friends. 102 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: I met him when I was running the d C 103 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: what was called then the dog Pound. It's now all 104 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: Lardie Darts the Animal Shelter. But I was the pound master, 105 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: an old old school pounder. I was the first lay 106 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: pound master. It had always been a veterinarian. And he 107 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: came in one day. He had just got off the 108 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: Sea Shepherd. They had been out looking for the whaling 109 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: ships and they had actually sunk one. And he said 110 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: to me, yes, we found out that we both similar 111 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: in that way. So he said, a youth vegetarian. I 112 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: said yes, because I had read Peter Singer's book Animal 113 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: Liberation that had changed me. And he said, but why 114 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: are you putting milk in your tea? I've always put 115 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: milk in my tea. I'm English English. I said, they 116 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: don't kill the cow, and he said, well, actually they do. 117 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: He said, where is this giant retirement home for cows 118 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: that you think exist? And then of course he told 119 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: me about veal farming being created so we could take 120 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: the mill. That was that, And then I told him 121 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: about animals and laboratories because I had inspected them, and 122 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: it went from there were sort of like Jack Spratt 123 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: and his wife. We both knew a bit about something. 124 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about Wales, and so we thought, 125 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: let's put this group together, and he was one of 126 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: the founding members. And silver Spring Monkeys take us through that. Well. 127 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: That was interesting because back then no one thought they 128 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: could do anything about animals in laboratories, even if in 129 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: their hearts they knew that there was something that was 130 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: probably horrible going on. So I looked at a list 131 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: put out by the U. S Department of Agriculture and 132 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: chose the nearest one to my apartment where there was 133 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: a lab that they inspected, supposedly, and um Alex was 134 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: a law student at g W. I had a full 135 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: time job at the Pounds. I said to him, why 136 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: don't you wander over there and see if you can 137 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: get a job. So he wandered over and they said, 138 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: no jobs, but we'll take you as a volunteer. And 139 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: so once he got in, I knew from my law 140 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: enforcement training how to put a case together. And what 141 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: he saw was worse than what we had imagined, because 142 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: there were seventeen monkeys in small metal cages with broken wires. 143 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: Many of the monkeys had lost their fingers because the experimenter, 144 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,599 Speaker 1: who didn't have one minute of medical training. He was 145 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: a psychologist, had cut open their backs, interfered with their nerves, 146 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: and had rendered most of their arms useless. He would 147 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: put them in an electric shock chamber and shock them 148 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: so that they had to use that what they called 149 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: de affronted arm. These were blood splattered converted refrigerators he 150 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: had made into basically tortured chamber us. So we documented 151 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: it all. We bought committed. How well I would hide 152 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: in the parking lot in a big cardboard box. We 153 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: had radio shack walkie talkies. He had one. I had one. 154 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes they worked and if someone pulled into the parking 155 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: lot at night, which is when he would go in 156 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: and take the photographs, I would try to alert him. 157 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: And after that we bought in. Actually he was hidden inside. 158 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: He got his job as a volunteer, so he could 159 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: want what did they tell people they were doing me? 160 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: Were they contracted that somebody was hiring who was hiring them? 161 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: They got lots of grants, and one of their grants 162 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: was from the National Institutes of Health, but there was 163 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: no oversight. So the purpose of this de affrontation experiment 164 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: with these poor monkeys who had all been captured in 165 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: the wild, was to see if a lecture shock would 166 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: cure stroke victims who had lost the use of their arm. 167 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: And of course, are you going to electro shock somebody 168 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: with a stroke whose luck lost the use of their arm. Also, 169 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: they didn't lose it that way by having nerves cut 170 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: in their backs. A stroke is completely different. But people 171 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: were applying for grants for all sorts of full purposes, 172 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: and nobody ever tapped them on the shoulder and said 173 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound feasible. They just accepted it, and we 174 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: did eventually have his grant suspended and then cut off 175 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: all the monkeys taken away. They them, yes, many of 176 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: them survived. They first went to the National Institutes of Health. 177 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,599 Speaker 1: Well actually they first went to one of our members basements. 178 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: And then when we realized the National Institutes of Health 179 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: was applying pressure to the police and that they were 180 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: going to be given back to this experimenter, all the 181 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: monkeys disappeared. They went on a little trip and we 182 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: negotiated with the Underground Railroad of Monkeys. Correct We negotiated 183 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: with the police, and in return for prosecuting Edward Taube, 184 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: the monkeys came back. They ended up in another spacious laboratory, 185 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: in a clean place, not a happy place, and eventually 186 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: some were retired to the San Diego Zoo. And the 187 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: person that was prosecuted in the name was Edward Taub 188 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: And what happened. He was found guilty by a jury. 189 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: He appealed, He went before a judge and the judge 190 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: ruled that in the state of Maryland, a federally funded 191 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: experimenter was exempt from state law. Is he still alive today? 192 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: He is. He hasn't touched an animal since he's at 193 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: the University of Alabama and he teaches classes. What kinds 194 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: of companies are among the rogues gallery here, the youthin 195 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: Growl among the worst in terms of what they've done 196 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: to animals. The pharmaceutical industry certainly take surprise there. We 197 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: have just actually managed to change a few of the 198 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: really big ones. You you'd recognize them. But what were 199 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: they doing, for example, well, testing depression drugs, pie, feeding 200 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: them to animals, dropping the animals into vats of water 201 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: with sheer sides, and then just recording how long it 202 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: took for the animals to stop struggling. The animals obviously 203 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: think they're going to drown. They're totally panicked. You see 204 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: them dive to the bottom and look for an escape, 205 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: and of course they can't there isn't one. They claw 206 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: at the sides of these containers they can't get. Usually hamsters, rats, 207 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: my small animals because they're convenient, they're cheap, and eventually 208 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: they'll decapitate them or they'll they'll freeze them. Um. We 209 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: have a woman now who is capturing wild songbirds. Birds 210 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: are very popular in the lab. You never think of that. Why, Um, 211 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: they're easy to handle and they're small, and again that's 212 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: not a scientific reason to use them. They have almost 213 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the human animals physiology. She captures 214 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: wild songbirds. We actually found her illegally capturing some, even 215 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: though she's on a federal grant. She puts electrodes in 216 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: their heads, she puts them in a cage, and she 217 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: does various things to them and just for forty years 218 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: has been recording what they do, whether they can tell 219 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: of the sunlight, whether their song is affected. We have 220 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: owls being used at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland. In Colorado, 221 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: we have crows being used and you think, you know, 222 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: find something useful that you can do with your lives. 223 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: Stop torturing animals. We have lungs on a chip, we 224 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: have organs on a chip. We have whole human DNA 225 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 1: on the internet. You know you can take slivers of 226 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: human brain now and throw it in a Petrie dish. 227 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: What are you doing tormenting, traumatizing and eventually killing these 228 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: animals that you've heard so much? Advances that equal the 229 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: advances in crash tests where they would crash tests live animals, 230 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: dogs and pigs. Now, of course it's dummies and computer 231 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: modeling and so forth to achieve this, and are virtually 232 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: all at least domestic manufacturers. No more animals live tests 233 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: internationally alex so exciting. Yes, we stopped them all. There 234 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: is no car company that chooses anything but crash test 235 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: dummies these days. No pigs, no badans, nobody, It's all 236 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: finished Ingrad new Kirk, one of the founders of Peter. 237 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: If you're a fan of the organization or just want 238 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: to know more about the tactics that gained it notoriety, 239 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: you'll want to listen to my conversation with Dan Matthews. 240 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: He's Peter's senior vice president for campaigns, the brain behind 241 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: I'd rather go naked than were for and lots more. 242 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: One of his biggest successes involved Calvin Klein. It started 243 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: with a plan to occupy the designer's office. We asked 244 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: to meet, We asked to show him the evidence, and 245 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: we never got a call back. So I went to 246 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: his office UH and case the place. I were all black, 247 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: so it looked like I might be part of the 248 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: fashion pact that was there. Made friends with the security 249 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: guard UH, and came back the next day with a 250 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: dozen other interns and we went up and took over 251 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: his office, and we put literature on all the desks. 252 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: We were screaming, Calvin Klein kills animals. Uh. Somebody spray 253 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: painted kills animals beneath the Calvin Klein logo. So I 254 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: picked up my phone four days later and it's Calvin 255 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: Klein's vice president asking if I would come in for 256 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: a meeting. Flash forward many years now, he and Calvin 257 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: are good friends. You can get a link to my 258 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: full interview with Dan Matthews by texting more Peter to 259 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: seven zero zero one. That's m O r E p 260 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: E t A to seven zero zero one. Now back 261 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: with Peter founder Ingrid new Kirk. We all know people 262 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: who say they love to go vegetarian but for one thing, 263 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: taste new Kirk. Here's that too, which he says, it's 264 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: an old excuse. Times have changed, Thank god. I think 265 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: you can get probably anything as a taste alike these days. 266 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: I mean, some of the old veggie burgers used to 267 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: taste like dog food, terrible. But now I mean, you've 268 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: got the Beyond burger. They taste tested. With people who 269 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: love a regular burger, they prefer the Beyond sometimes. And 270 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: you can dress anyway you want. Now everything has changed. 271 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: You've got pineapple leather and apple leather, and I mean 272 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: all these wonderful things. And people are talking about the 273 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: environmental destructiveness of animal skins. But people would come to 274 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: me and say, it's one thing if you want to 275 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: protect animals and performance. It's one thing if you want 276 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: to protect animals in terms of clothing, medical experimentation, the 277 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: whole body. But don't tell me what to eat. Well, look, 278 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: our taste bud's usually for most of us, we've grown 279 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: up eating meat. As I said, you know, my father 280 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: and I basically ate our way through the animal kingdom. 281 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: The only two things that I wouldn't eat. One was 282 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: tongue because i'd seen a cow stick it out and 283 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: I don't know that. And the other was intestines. My 284 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: father loved intestines and my mother would cook them in 285 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 1: the house. Would stink too high heaven. But I do 286 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: think that people cling to reasons to continue to have 287 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: the taste they've grown up with and they've come to 288 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: like I did, because you know, I didn't want to 289 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: give up meat. Now as time has passed, you look 290 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: back at it and it's no different than roadkill, except 291 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: itselfered more. But we've got faux grow instead of foi gras. 292 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: We have a camera there instead of a camem bear. 293 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: We have all these things. There's even a cavey art 294 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: that's like Caviare this beef burger substitute. I'm so ecstatic 295 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: about that idea because fast food companies they're everywhere, They're everywhere, 296 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: and you have a chance to eat a vegetarian option, 297 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: and every one of these places that served that food. 298 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: I think that's a great, great, great beginning. It's fantastic 299 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: because only vegans will go to a vegan restaurant unless 300 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: someone's dragging them there. But if you can go to 301 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: Denny's and you can, or you can go to Duncan 302 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: Donuts and get a Beyond Burger. And they're not just 303 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: selling it on the side, they're advertising it on the board. 304 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: People are wearing t shirts saying try this. And I 305 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: wonder when the time will come in Beyond Burger or 306 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: Impossible will open their own fast food restaurants which are 307 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: purely vegetarian. Absolutely. If I have to tell you, Christie 308 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: Hine and I were locked up for protesting leather in 309 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: New York once and we went down into I think 310 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: they call it the dungeon in the jails, the tombs, 311 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: that's it, sure, in the called the tombs, and they 312 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: gave us that special sandwich which was the vegetarian version 313 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: of the ballogny sandwich, which was the sandwich without the ballooney. 314 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, Paul McCartney was fooled by his wife. Linda 315 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: McCartney used to say, I cheated on Paul, And what 316 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: she meant was he used to love Lasagnia and she 317 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: got these soy crumbles that she made and she put 318 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: them in as if they were ground beef, and he 319 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: never knew the difference. Later she told him and they 320 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: both became a vegetarian. I cheated on Paul. She was 321 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: one of the great proponents. Loved her. She was just 322 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: an animals angel. And we still have roses in our 323 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: garden at the Peter Headquarters in Norfolk, in her honor, 324 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: Linda's roses. And so there's nothing in the animal kingdom though, 325 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: even eggs that are freely given, that are free range eggs, 326 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: there's nothing in the animal kingdom you think is allowable, 327 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: you kid, I don't think you need it. I do 328 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: think it's allowable. If you come across an abandoned egg, 329 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: go for it. If you want to eat road kilc 330 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: for it. But I don't think we need it. And 331 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: this anthropological argument is bogus, you know, because Richard Leakey 332 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: is the father of anthropology basically, and he says, hang on, 333 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: we're primates like monkeys, chimpanzees, bonobos, and the primary diet 334 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: of a primate is not meat. Some chimpanzees, not gorillas, 335 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: not not other do eat meat. They'll go hunting like 336 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: a pack of young men and they'll eat maybe a 337 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: colobus monkey they'll gang up on this monkey like a 338 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: street gang and tear them apart, living from them. But 339 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: the primates diet is not meat, and so if we 340 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: really want to be true, we're not carnivores. We don't 341 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: have these giant teeth and these claws, we don't hunt 342 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: at night. We're omnivores. Are there any gradations for you? 343 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: Meaning if people go out and they are, especially people 344 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: who live in a culture, we're hunting, because I'm often 345 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: asked this question, we're hunting as a part of their culture, 346 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: and they're going to store or cure or freeze that 347 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: food and eat that food. You're still opposed to that, 348 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, it kind of smacks you're trying to take 349 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: our guns away. You're trying to take our hunting away. Well, 350 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: I'd love to take the hunting away. There was a 351 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: time when hunting was what many people had to do 352 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: to survive, and just as other animals hunt, some humans 353 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: had to hunt. I think those times have also largely gone, 354 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: and most people who hunt today are not just getting 355 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: one caribou to put it on the table. It does happen. Um. 356 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: I think being pragmatic is very good. You have to 357 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: have your head in the sky and your feet on 358 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: the ground. But these days, I don't really think that 359 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: we're looking at say, Aboriginal people somewhere may maybe they 360 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: have to that's fine, but we're looking at you know, 361 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: Donald Trump Jr. Going out to put a head on 362 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: his wall. That's a different story. But talk for a moment, 363 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: if you would, about what your organization did in terms 364 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: of circuses and the work you did in order to 365 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: expose circuses. So we went to the Department of Justice, 366 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: to the Attorney General's office, and we had very carefully, 367 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: painstakingly documented how Ringling had allowed this lion to burn 368 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: to death basically in the Mohave Desert. Three baby elephants. 369 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: They killed them in training. One brand from the trainer 370 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: with the bullhook, went into the pond and drowned. Another 371 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: one fell off one of those pedestals they used to 372 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: train them. Another one three times in a day. When 373 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: he was deathly ill, they forced him back into the ring. 374 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: So we went to the d o J. And we said, look, 375 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: Ringland gets away with this all the time. So that 376 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: resulted in the biggest fine in US history against a circus. 377 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: We were relentless with that, and in the end they 378 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: just had to give up. But today we're very happy. 379 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: We got trip Advisor and Airbnb to say we will 380 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: not promote any animal acts, any wild animal acts. No 381 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: sea worlds, no dolphins shows, no elephants to rides, nothing. 382 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: But also we ask people don't go to these places 383 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: that say we're an elephant camp of orphanage in Thailand 384 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: or can rescue. No, those babies are taken stolen from 385 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: their mothers. You know, this applies to people that are 386 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: political figures. This applies to people who are corporate leaders 387 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: who are trying to sell a product or a service 388 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: and make money for their investors. And this applies to 389 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: people in the n g O world and in the 390 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: not for profit world. And that is the leadership. Real leadership. 391 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: Great leadership is helping people to see something they need 392 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: to do correct. What is the relationship between global warming, 393 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: climate change and animal rights. Well, you know, it's totally connected. 394 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: And there are things that are unpopular to say, perhaps, 395 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: but they're hard truths. You take Australia and you know 396 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: that animal based agriculture with methane carbon dioxide, that that's 397 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: contributing to climate change more than anything. United Nations says. 398 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: You could put all the transportation, you know, trains, planes, automobiles, 399 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: put it in one heap. You still don't equal the 400 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: damage done by animal based agriculture. It's for food, and 401 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: of course they are stripping the Amazon, burning it, and 402 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: we've seen that so that they can grow soy crops. 403 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: And people say, oh, well, isn't soy environmentally destructive? Yes, 404 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: but it's being grown for animal feed. Is the least 405 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: efficient way of getting food is to grow soy, cut 406 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: all the habitat down, then grow soy and then feed 407 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: it to chickens and pigs and and cows. So animal 408 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: based agriculture is definitely part of it. Australia, of course, 409 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: it's just one big sheep farm. Basically plastic pollution. You 410 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: can stop using straws, you can stop using those small 411 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: plastic bottles, but really the biggest polluter in the ocean 412 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: is discarded fishing gear. It's killing the whales. They are drowning, 413 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: tangled in crab nets. All the turtles, the dolphins are 414 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: what they have by catch, you know, and they are 415 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: trolling with these football field sized nets, taking up every 416 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: living thing, and then they discard them. They dropped them overboard. 417 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: That is the biggest polluter, and a lot of those 418 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: nets are plastic. I'm wondering how you come out on zoos. 419 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: Are there any kind of animals on display operations that 420 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: you do uh support? I think that zoos are changing. Um, 421 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: the big zoos really understand now that they can't provide 422 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: the habitat, for example, four elephants. You've got the Detroit Zoo, 423 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: the wonderful director there and he said, you know when 424 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: the last elephant goes, the last elephant goes, He said, 425 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: we realize they're so intelligent, there's so complex. There's no 426 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: way that we can possibly pretend to be looking after 427 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: their interests. So that sort of evolution is happening because 428 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: we know so much more behaviorally about animals than we 429 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: ever did. They can actually tell a herd one or 430 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: two miles away that there's a threat or that they 431 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: found water in a drought, and no one can hear 432 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: it except with instrumentation, except the elephants themselves, and they 433 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: understand what they're saying. So zoos can't deal with that 434 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: sort of thing. First, we have to close the roadside zoos. 435 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: Those are little pits of despair, and you've helped us 436 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: with that all the bears that are on cement, turning 437 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: in circles, banging their heads against the bar, banging met 438 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: you know, going insane. And the same with tigers and 439 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: the same with lions. I think we've taken eighty three 440 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: tigers out of those places is and they can now 441 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: roam in Colorado and these vast enclosures and looked after that, 442 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: those have to go. No one should stop the car 443 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: and go to a roadside zoo, and then let's hope 444 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: that the other ones evolve. Who's someone that you would 445 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: say that you really had an incredibly positive experience in 446 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: addressing one of your issues. I think there are so many, 447 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: because you know, people are people, and whether they're the 448 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: head of the corporation or they're out on the street, 449 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: some care and some don't, and some can have their 450 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: eyes opened and some won't. UM. The very first one 451 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: I think who really impressed me was the head of 452 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: Benetton at the time, and later somebody at Gillette. Both 453 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: issued cosmetics. Benetton had a perfume. Gillette, of course, their 454 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: whole line is from toothpaste to shampoo and so on. 455 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: UM all used animals and experiments and Gillette actually said 456 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: to us. You have changed our corporate culture. We have 457 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: a lot of scientists on the Peter staff and they're 458 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: in all kinds of disciplines and they've read every regulation 459 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: and they know all the alternatives that they could ever research, 460 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: and we actually fund alternatives to some things. And they 461 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: were able to go and meet with these corporations and 462 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: say here's a better way to do it. And to 463 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: their credit, both of those corporations listened, thought it through 464 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: and decided, actually, you're right. And it took some doing, 465 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: but they changed. You've had a lot of success over 466 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: the years with the fashion industry back and I was 467 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: invited to a party at Anna Winter's house and there 468 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: was a moment where I just was tempted to wear 469 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: a Pita T shirt. But you've had tremendous success in 470 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: converting people in the fashion industry to get off of 471 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: fur and so forth. What are some of your latest victories? 472 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: There were not Anna, I've never had any success with her, 473 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: and of course actually occupied her office at some point. 474 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: But we've had super success and now it's really terrific. 475 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: We just disbanded our I'd rather go naked and where 476 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: for campaign because we don't need it. Anymore. I mean, yes, 477 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: they're Canada. Goose, you know, has still coyote fur on 478 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: the trim and so on. But it's these are outliers. 479 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: Now you've got Galliano, Gucci, Donna, tellaver Sacchi. You can't 480 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: name a designer. The sale just don't. Thanks to you. Thanks. 481 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: We were merciless, threw a lot of paint on people 482 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: on the way. We also negotiated and we got people 483 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: to not want it, and I think that was the 484 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: key is as you people have got to go along 485 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: with it. And the next generation up was not like 486 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: my generation and generation after it. They just thought, I 487 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: really I'd rather be seeing dead than in for and 488 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: they shunned it. And then all these other things came 489 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: along and they're not synthetic, they're just natural fibers and fat. 490 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: Anna Wintour was just seen in a Stella McCartney faux 491 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: fur that you would not mistake for a real fur 492 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: at all. It's so beautifully crafted and obviously so different, 493 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: but soft and beautiful and just the epitome of fashion. 494 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: She looks so much better in it than all the 495 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: assaulted animal things. Do you find that when people are 496 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: exposed two film, when you show them inside. I did 497 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: the documentary Meets Your Meet with You guys a while ago, 498 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: and when you show them the conditions there and how 499 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: animals go from farm to table if you will, does 500 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: it have an effect you think, on a critical mass 501 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: of people or most people don't care. Well, you know, 502 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: they say a pictures worth a thousand words, videos worth 503 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: much much more. A lot of people wake up for 504 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: the first time when they see those images, because it's 505 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: not just you telling them, and they have to wonder 506 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,479 Speaker 1: if that's true. They can actually see it with their 507 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: own eyes. They might as well be standing there. Of course, 508 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: they're all the Attila the hunt types, and there are 509 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: people who cling to what they want to continue to do, 510 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: even when you show them that there's suffering involved in it. 511 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: You'd have to be a very strong, odd callous person 512 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: to say, well, yes, that's what they go through. The fear, 513 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: they smell the blood, and you know, I've stood on 514 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: the slaughterhouse floor and all of them are petrified. And 515 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: then just they know what's happening. They absolutely know what's happening. 516 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: And I was in Taiwan at a dog soup slaughterhouse 517 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: and it was the exact same eyes on the dogs 518 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: who smell it, they hear it. It's in the air 519 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: to them. Their nostrils are so sensitive as any cow, 520 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: any chicken, any pig. Yeah, absolutely, throwing the piglets against 521 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: the wall, punching the sheep in the face. I don't 522 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: think anything makes me more disturbed than seeing that. It's 523 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: like abu grape for animals. The attitude is I've got you, 524 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: and now I'm going to show you whose boss. And 525 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: you think how smaller person you have to be that 526 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: you think that it builds you up to be so 527 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: mean and disgusting and cause such pain it cannot get 528 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: away from you, cannot escape and would love to if 529 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: they could. Um, you see so much domination, bullying, people 530 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: actually getting their kicks out of A person takes a 531 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: cinder block and drops it on a crippled sow's head 532 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: and they laughed. They just think it's so funny. Well, 533 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: you've taught the world a lot. You've taught the world 534 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: a great deal, and I hope you're very proud of 535 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: the work you've done. You're very kind and as you say, 536 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: it's taken everybody six point five million members and supporters. 537 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: When we put out an action alert, we couldn't do it, 538 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: and as all those people, it pulled a heart string 539 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: and they thought, I'll be part of this solution. But 540 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: I cry a lot, I feel a lot, and sometimes 541 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: I do things that are provocative just because I can't 542 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: get someone's attention on an issue that's vitally serious for 543 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: the animals. But you're right, negotiation and persuasion are usually 544 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: better than litigation and demonstrations. Any day. You have a 545 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: new book out called Animal Kind Remarkable Discoveries about Animals 546 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: and the remarkable ways we can be kind to them. 547 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: This is what book you've written. How many of you written? 548 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: I've written twelve. But this is my favorite, of course, 549 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: because I really think it speaks to the way people 550 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: are thinking about animals today. They see those videos and 551 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: they have learned so much and they now think, well, 552 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: maybe there are some more things I can do. And 553 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: so two parts telling you who animals are, how or 554 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: inspiring they are, and the second part is all the 555 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: things you can do in your daily life. Ingrid new 556 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: Kirk the founding figure of the modern animal rights movement. 557 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: You can learn more about her work at Peter dot org. 558 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: To animal Kind, her new book about animal cognition and 559 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: psychology can be found in the show description that Here's 560 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: the Thing dot org. While many of us remain quarantined 561 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: due to a pandemic purportedly caused by the handling, slaughter, 562 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: and marketing of animals for food. Now might be a 563 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: good time for you to acquaint yourself with the writing 564 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: of Ingrad new Kirk. You're listening to Here's the Thing. 565 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin.