1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

2
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,320
Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music, beefs and

3
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

4
00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and today we're gonna talk about Lou Reed

5
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,759
Speaker 1: and John Kale, who's on easy Partnership form the crux

6
00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 1: of the Velvet Underground. I gotta say the phrase drug

7
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,000
Speaker 1: fueled is overused, but it's pretty unavoidable in this case.

8
00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,559
Speaker 1: So get ready for a lot of leather, whip speed,

9
00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,800
Speaker 1: unlistenable records and some decapitated chickens. Why not? Can I

10
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,280
Speaker 1: also add the word genius to this equation? You know,

11
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,479
Speaker 1: I think that word is overused in most contexts, but

12
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 1: I think it more than applies to both of these guys,

13
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 1: who rank among the greatest and most influential artists ever

14
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 1: to work in the realms of punk, indie, alternative and

15
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 1: underground music. I mean, you can't write the history of

16
00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 1: outside of rock music in the twentieth century without devoting

17
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 1: at LEAs is a couple of chapters to Lou Reid

18
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,880
Speaker 1: and John Klee. Oh totally. I mean Lou and John

19
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 1: pushed the envelope in so many different ways, but they

20
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,400
Speaker 1: did so in very different ways in the time in

21
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,840
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground, like Lou wanted to do so by

22
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: incorporating the sort of rough and raw language of the

23
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 1: streets and writing these really highly literate lyrics to create

24
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,399
Speaker 1: what he thought was sort of rock and roll for adults,

25
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 1: and John Klee wanted to incorporate his ideas from his

26
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 1: time in the avant garde scene in the Lower East

27
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,720
Speaker 1: Side of New York. He worked with people like Lamont

28
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,400
Speaker 1: Young and John Cage, And for me, the best Velvet

29
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 1: Underground songs are songs like Heroin Venus and Furs and

30
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: All Tomorrow's Parties, which utilized really both of their approaches.

31
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,880
Speaker 1: And when Lu forced John out of the band, it

32
00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,520
Speaker 1: really became for me a totally different band. And there

33
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 1: are some who say that when he fired John Kale

34
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 1: was his biggest creative mistake in a career really characterized

35
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 1: by a lot of self sabotage. Yeah, I was gonna say,

36
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 1: like ranking all of the self sabotage and Lou Reid's career,

37
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,960
Speaker 1: I mean, that would be an incredible list, you know,

38
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,160
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, you could say that forcing John Kale

39
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,160
Speaker 1: out of the Velvet Underground was a mistake. But on

40
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 1: the other hand, we are again talking about two geniuses here,

41
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,680
Speaker 1: and it's hard to imagine any man that could have

42
00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,120
Speaker 1: contained talents as forceful and idiots and critic as Louis

43
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,040
Speaker 1: and John Kale for like a sustained period of time.

44
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 1: What's interesting to me is that when you listen to

45
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,680
Speaker 1: the records that they made apart from each other, I

46
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,440
Speaker 1: feel like you could hear the presence of the other guy.

47
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,240
Speaker 1: I mean, they really did continue to influence and even

48
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,640
Speaker 1: haunt each other's records for years after they split. So

49
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's lots to dive into with this. I'm

50
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,799
Speaker 1: excited to get into it. So without further ado, let's

51
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:35,840
Speaker 1: get into this mess. Lou Reid was really someone who

52
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 1: from an early age felt suffocated by social norms and

53
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,799
Speaker 1: the conformity of the post war era. He was born

54
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,560
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, and his dad was an account and his

55
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: mom was a scenographer, and they moved out the Long

56
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 1: Island in the suburbs, not far from like the Levitt

57
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: Town tract houses, like the height of fifties conformity. Uh.

58
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,840
Speaker 1: And you know, even as a little boy, he seemed

59
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,239
Speaker 1: miserable he attended Hebrews School. Anybody later describe it as

60
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,639
Speaker 1: like being in a concentration camp. So not exactly a happy,

61
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 1: go lucky little boy here. And really, even at this

62
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 1: early age, he felt removed from his peers, and there

63
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 1: was a friend in school would later say that while

64
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,320
Speaker 1: most kids were sneaking beers, Lou was smoking joints and

65
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,239
Speaker 1: reading French erotic fiction like the Story of Oh and Uh.

66
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,600
Speaker 1: It was sort of the first sign that Lou might

67
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,760
Speaker 1: not be completely heterosexual. His parents took him to a

68
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:28,760
Speaker 1: psychiatrist and they famously administered he really brutal electroshock therapy

69
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 1: that really read havoc on his mind and his outlook

70
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 1: on the world. I mean, he felt this was a

71
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 1: huge betrayal from the people who were meant to protect

72
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 1: him and uh, really, I think that colored his view

73
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 1: of the world as a sort of even darker and

74
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 1: scarier place, and he already imagined it and uh, and

75
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 1: his relationship with his family really never recovered. There was

76
00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,360
Speaker 1: a story when he was out walking with his friends

77
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,240
Speaker 1: as an adult in New York and his friends and

78
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,560
Speaker 1: the only time he ever saw Lou read afraid was

79
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,240
Speaker 1: when he accidentally bumped into his family on the street,

80
00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,680
Speaker 1: so that that says a lot about him, I think, yeah,

81
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 1: And I think we're going to see that the relationship

82
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,680
Speaker 1: that he had, I think, especially with his father, you

83
00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: know how troubled that was, it's going to, I think,

84
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,520
Speaker 1: color some of the other relationships that he has with

85
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,680
Speaker 1: other men in his life, like the crucial relationships. And

86
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,480
Speaker 1: I think the first example we're going to see of

87
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,800
Speaker 1: that is when lou Reid goes to college at Syracuse

88
00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 1: University and he's at school, he's interested in becoming a writer,

89
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,200
Speaker 1: and initially he had thought that he might become a journalist,

90
00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 1: which to me is hilarious considering that lou Reid, I think,

91
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,479
Speaker 1: more than any other rock star, like it's famous for

92
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 1: hating journalists and like torturing journalists. He was also playing

93
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,720
Speaker 1: folk guitar at this time and really worshiping at the

94
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 1: altar of Bob Dylan like a lot of other I think,

95
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,960
Speaker 1: aspiring songwriters in the early sixties. All the while he

96
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 1: was developing this very cynical, sarcastic and often like just

97
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,600
Speaker 1: flat out meme persona that I think ultimately was a

98
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,040
Speaker 1: defense mechanism for his own insecurity and fragility. I mean

99
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,520
Speaker 1: that is an old clear say about bullies, that they

100
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,159
Speaker 1: are deep down, you know, very insecure and fragile people.

101
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 1: But I think that was certainly true of of lou Reid.

102
00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 1: But a crucial meeting that he makes at Syracuse is

103
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,479
Speaker 1: with the poet Delmore Schwartz, who becomes I think the

104
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,960
Speaker 1: first of his like surrogate father figures. And you know,

105
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,279
Speaker 1: if you're a lou Reid fan, you know Delmore Schwartz.

106
00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,520
Speaker 1: If you've like read lou Reed biographies, Delmore Schwartz appears

107
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 1: lots of times. There's also that great song My House

108
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: from the Blue Mask two, like one of the great

109
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 1: lou Reid records, and that song is a tribute to

110
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,800
Speaker 1: Delmore Schwartz. And I think Delmore, you know, he was

111
00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 1: the first again of these like surrogate father figures. I

112
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,440
Speaker 1: think Andy Warhol was going to end up being that,

113
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 1: And in a weird way, I feel like that also

114
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,240
Speaker 1: applies to John Kle maybe not a father figure per se,

115
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,560
Speaker 1: but a mentor type figure who is gonna help Blue

116
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,920
Speaker 1: I think, again compensate for that insecurity that he has

117
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,880
Speaker 1: about his own talent. But going back to the timeline

118
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 1: here at Syracuse, University, louis starting to experiment with songwriting,

119
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 1: and supposedly he starts getting into songwriting because it's hard

120
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,320
Speaker 1: for him to concentrate on longer form prose writing, I

121
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 1: guess because of his electric shock therapy, like that really

122
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,359
Speaker 1: screwed him up mentally, made it hard for him to

123
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,680
Speaker 1: kind of focus on more sort of novelistic typewriting. But

124
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: he already had this idea at Syracuse that he wanted

125
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 1: to take that street level rock and roll that he

126
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:27,800
Speaker 1: loved as a kid, like he was a huge doo

127
00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,279
Speaker 1: wop fan back then, like Dion and the Belmonts, exactly

128
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: infusing that with the gritty street level literature that he loved,

129
00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,919
Speaker 1: like he was a huge fan of, like Hubert Selby's

130
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,200
Speaker 1: Last Exit to Brooklyn. So like, how do you take

131
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,200
Speaker 1: less exit to Brooklyn with like this great gritty New

132
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,159
Speaker 1: York doo wop rock music, Well you end up with

133
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,360
Speaker 1: songs like Heroin, you know. And he was already tinkering

134
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,040
Speaker 1: with Heroin the song and also the drug of course

135
00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,720
Speaker 1: when he was at Syracuse, although it would be many

136
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,760
Speaker 1: years before the outside world would hear that song. And

137
00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,560
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because his first job out of college

138
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,440
Speaker 1: is working at a sort of budget label called Pickwick,

139
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,479
Speaker 1: and what they would do is they would basically write

140
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 1: knockoff versions of hits. And it's sort of here that

141
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,280
Speaker 1: he really hones his gift for melody, because he's listening

142
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,400
Speaker 1: to hit songs and trying to basically rip them off

143
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 1: and making twenty five bucks a week to do so.

144
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,480
Speaker 1: And he writes a song that's kind of a parody

145
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 1: of the dance crazes that we're sweeping the nation in

146
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 1: the early sixties, like the Twist and the and the

147
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 1: Watusi and stuff like that. It's called the Ostrich and

148
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: it's a total joke song. I mean it has lyrics

149
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: like put your head on the floor and have somebody

150
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,680
Speaker 1: step on it like very It's Blue Red writing a

151
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,040
Speaker 1: dance craze parody song and um, and he writes it

152
00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,160
Speaker 1: in this really unique way. He takes his guitar strings

153
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,360
Speaker 1: and d tunes them all so they're all playing the

154
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 1: same note, so it sounds almost like a sit tard.

155
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,960
Speaker 1: It's this drone sound. It's this really weird sound. And

156
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,400
Speaker 1: he releases the song. The Ostrich is given a fake

157
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 1: band name called the Primitives. It's just a bunch of

158
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,640
Speaker 1: studio musicians and the song actually does reasonably well, and

159
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: the label wants to promote it by putting a band

160
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 1: together and go out and play it on the road.

161
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: And lu doesn't really know anybody to play with, and

162
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 1: he's looking around to try to find somebody to UH

163
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,440
Speaker 1: to put this, make this fake band the reality, and

164
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,040
Speaker 1: that's how he meets John Kale. Yeah, and I love

165
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 1: the beginnings of their relationship because it almost sounds like

166
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,760
Speaker 1: the Monkeys or something, you know, this prefabricated band. And

167
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:24,960
Speaker 1: the appeal of John Kale to lou Reid at that

168
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,480
Speaker 1: time was one that he had long hair and to

169
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 1: that John Kale is from Wales, so he had a

170
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,840
Speaker 1: Welsh accent which was close enough to a British accent

171
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 1: to you know, tie them in with the British invasion,

172
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,560
Speaker 1: which was of course very big at the time. John Kale,

173
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,480
Speaker 1: of course, had very little connection otherwise to rock music.

174
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,400
Speaker 1: He was already a rising star in the classical and

175
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,960
Speaker 1: avant garde scenes. The reason that he ended up in

176
00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 1: America is that he was awarded this very prestigious UH

177
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:58,199
Speaker 1: scholarship is like the Leonard Bernstein Scholarship to study musical composition,

178
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 1: and he was actually interviewed for that position by Aaron Copeland,

179
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,520
Speaker 1: like this very legendary composer. So John Kale was already

180
00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,320
Speaker 1: like rubbing shoulders like with modern musical giants at this time.

181
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,439
Speaker 1: When he ended up in New York, he cooked up

182
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 1: with this guy Lamont Young, who at the time was

183
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 1: considered to be at the vanguard of avant garde classical

184
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,320
Speaker 1: music composition. He had taken over that mantle from John

185
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,240
Speaker 1: Cage in the early sixties. And John Cage, by the way,

186
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,439
Speaker 1: also had a connection to John Kale. Actually, John Klee

187
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 1: had some notoriety and I guess like the hippest parts

188
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,440
Speaker 1: of the avant garden scene in New York because he

189
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:42,000
Speaker 1: had been photographed performing with John Cage on stage. So

190
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: people saw that photo, it was published in the newspaper.

191
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,000
Speaker 1: So he had some like I guess, like like a

192
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 1: modicum of celebrity, like among those circles. It's interesting to

193
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,600
Speaker 1: because like when he first heard lou Reads songs, John

194
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,520
Speaker 1: Kale didn't like them because musically they just sounded like

195
00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,079
Speaker 1: folk music to him. And of course John Kale is

196
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 1: coming from this classical and avant garde background and he

197
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,760
Speaker 1: just thought folk music was boring and conservative. It wasn't

198
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,840
Speaker 1: until he started paying attention to lou Read's lyrics that

199
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,440
Speaker 1: the songs really started to connect with him, and he

200
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,720
Speaker 1: could appreciate like how sophisticated the words were, how literary

201
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,320
Speaker 1: they were, how gritty they were, and how lou Reid

202
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 1: was already writing about the sorts of things that people

203
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,040
Speaker 1: didn't talk about in pop music, and it really entranced

204
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 1: John Kale and he basically just like a bandoned Lamont

205
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,840
Speaker 1: Young and started working with lou Reed, which in retrospect

206
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,920
Speaker 1: seems like a natural decision to make, but in the

207
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,440
Speaker 1: you know, mid sixties, was a pretty like strong vote

208
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,920
Speaker 1: of confidence for lou Reid. You know that he would

209
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,960
Speaker 1: take up with this guy that really like didn't have

210
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,400
Speaker 1: a pot to piss in at that point, and their

211
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,000
Speaker 1: relationship early on it really was like a true friendship.

212
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 1: You know. Kale has talked about how lou Reid was

213
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,720
Speaker 1: the was his first real friend in America, and he

214
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 1: felt that lou Reid in a way taught him how

215
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,319
Speaker 1: to survive in New York. You know, like we think

216
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,440
Speaker 1: of lou Reid as being like this quintessential New York character.

217
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,360
Speaker 1: He's of course written about New York in rock music

218
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,920
Speaker 1: as well as anybody, but even back then he was

219
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,320
Speaker 1: a native of the area. He knew the lay of

220
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,880
Speaker 1: the land, almost like a Ratzo Rizzo type figure that

221
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,199
Speaker 1: had been that cowboy type thing. So he looked to

222
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 1: lou Reid for that. Also, lou Reid introduced junk Kill

223
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,160
Speaker 1: to Heroin. They started shooting up together at this time,

224
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,280
Speaker 1: which is I guess a dubious thing for your friend

225
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 1: to introduce you to you. Maybe that's a down thing,

226
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,840
Speaker 1: but like it did, you know, bond them together. Looking

227
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,880
Speaker 1: at it from lou Read's perspective, you know, I said

228
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,760
Speaker 1: this earlier, you know, talking about John Kale being a mentor,

229
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,680
Speaker 1: maybe not so much like a father figure, but he

230
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,280
Speaker 1: did seem almost like a record producer for lou Reid

231
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,079
Speaker 1: in a way. Like Kile himself said that he felt

232
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: like he took on a Spengali like role with lou

233
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,560
Speaker 1: Reid because lou had all this talent, he had good

234
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 1: songs already, but he was suffering from depression, and Cale said,

235
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,839
Speaker 1: I think he used the phrase low energy to describe

236
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,480
Speaker 1: lou Reid at this time, which is a very Trumpian phrase. Now,

237
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,520
Speaker 1: but you know, he said he was low energy like

238
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,400
Speaker 1: so Cale kind of encouraged him and said, like, look,

239
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 1: you have talent and we could do something together. And

240
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure Kle thought in his own mind that like,

241
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 1: I can take the words that this guy's written and

242
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,160
Speaker 1: sort of realized them musically and really take it to

243
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,960
Speaker 1: a whole different place. And and that right there, I

244
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 1: think you can see like the velvet underground starting to

245
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,679
Speaker 1: take shape. Yeah. Absolutely, Lou was really in a fragile

246
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,319
Speaker 1: place at this time, and not only just psychologically because

247
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 1: he'd been he'd just gone through this this really traumatic

248
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 1: therapy and prescribed all of these tranquilizers. And I think

249
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,720
Speaker 1: upon his one of his first meetings with John, he said,

250
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, they think I'm crazy. I think I'm crazy,

251
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 1: And John said to him, You're not crazy, come on,

252
00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:58,719
Speaker 1: come make music with me. And I think, I mean,

253
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,080
Speaker 1: it's difficult to imagine now how badly Lou probably needed

254
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,079
Speaker 1: to hear that and all these songs that he was

255
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 1: playing for John's his record label didn't want to know

256
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 1: anything about, you know, Pickwick Records, who was trying to

257
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,280
Speaker 1: make off knockoff hit songs, don't want to hear Heroin.

258
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,600
Speaker 1: So to get such a vote of confidence from this

259
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,000
Speaker 1: guy who has you know, rubbed shoulders with Aaron Copeland

260
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,280
Speaker 1: would have been huge for Lou at this time. So

261
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,640
Speaker 1: so they shot up at this Lower Eastside basically a

262
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,440
Speaker 1: tenement house, which was you know, the landlord would come

263
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 1: and collect rent with a shotgun because it was a

264
00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,720
Speaker 1: really rough neighborhood. And they spent about a year, uh,

265
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 1: kind of coalescing their sound. And like you said, John

266
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,559
Speaker 1: sort of serves as a sort of a musical director,

267
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,760
Speaker 1: and they both have this incredible gift for improvisation, and

268
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,200
Speaker 1: they just would have these jams at they're at their flat,

269
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,560
Speaker 1: and John would kind of move lose folky songs over

270
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 1: into more of the stuff that he was doing with

271
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: Lamont Young, which was also very drone bassed. I think

272
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 1: that was a musical connection early on was when John

273
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,320
Speaker 1: heard the Ostrich song and it was played with this

274
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 1: D tuned guitar that was like a drone. He thought,

275
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,079
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is very similar to the kind

276
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:58,880
Speaker 1: of work I do. So they had that point of

277
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,320
Speaker 1: connection early on too, but John shaped it a little

278
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 1: more and uh, and that that really, as you said,

279
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 1: sort of the genesis of the Velvet Undergrounds just was

280
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 1: those two. I love the story about Lou Reid and

281
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 1: John Kale like Busking and Harlem at this time, and

282
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,000
Speaker 1: like I think Lou had an acoustic guitar and John

283
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 1: would have a viola and they'd just be playing on

284
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 1: a street corner. I don't know if they were playing

285
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground songs. There's no way this happened, but I

286
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 1: would love to imagine that there was like a bootlegger

287
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 1: recording some of those busting performances. That be incredible. But

288
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,400
Speaker 1: as far as the Vote Underground goes and their lineup solidifies,

289
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 1: once they add Sterling Morrison on guitar and Mo Tucker

290
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 1: on drums, and you know, as unusual to rock music

291
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,960
Speaker 1: as I think Lou Read songs were, and John Kale's

292
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,280
Speaker 1: you know, classical avant garde background, you know, Morrison and

293
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 1: Tucker I think brought their own flavor to the band,

294
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,000
Speaker 1: especially Mo Tucker, I mean, who I think is a

295
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 1: great drummer, but certainly not a conventional rock drummer by

296
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,080
Speaker 1: any structure that imagine San All these elements were going

297
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 1: to go a long way to ensuring that the Velvet Underground,

298
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:06,920
Speaker 1: we're not going to sound like any other rock band

299
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 1: that came before them, which again is great. Now when

300
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 1: we think about the Boat Underground, you know, this iconic,

301
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,720
Speaker 1: you know band of American rock music, but in their

302
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 1: own time, it was very difficult to find a place

303
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,720
Speaker 1: that was appropriate for them to play. Like if you

304
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,240
Speaker 1: heard that story about like how they would play like

305
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,960
Speaker 1: high school auditoriumspac then like who, I have no idea, like, yeah,

306
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: you booked Underground, like for like the Sok Hop or something.

307
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 1: I don't even know, like what the occasion would be

308
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,600
Speaker 1: to have the Vote Underground come through Ladies Choice for

309
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: Heroin and even like when they were playing like Greenwich

310
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 1: Village venues. You know, the Bote Underground didn't really fit

311
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 1: in because they weren't a folk band. You know, the

312
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,080
Speaker 1: folks scene of course was still pretty big at that time,

313
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,080
Speaker 1: and they weren't you know, like a beatlesque British Invasion

314
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 1: type group. You know, they were definitely something very different

315
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 1: and again much more provocative and noisy than bands were

316
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,000
Speaker 1: at that time. There's a great story about them playing

317
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 1: I think somewhere in New York where they're playing Sister Ray,

318
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 1: which is one of the great Devin Underground songs, this epic,

319
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, like twenty minute or so Noise, Noise, Opus

320
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,160
Speaker 1: and uh. The the owner of the bar where they

321
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 1: were playing was like, you know, don't play that song again.

322
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to hear that song. It's

323
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,640
Speaker 1: just the cacophonous mess. So then they proceed in their

324
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 1: next set to play a forty five minute version of

325
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,080
Speaker 1: Sister Ray where the entire set is just them blaring

326
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 1: away on Sister Ray, which is so awesome for us now,

327
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 1: like that is why we love the even Underground. But

328
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 1: you know, you could see how in the moment it

329
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,560
Speaker 1: wasn't the best thing for their career, right, And so

330
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 1: I think they ended up losing that gig. But fortuitously,

331
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 1: somebody from Andy Warhol's factory had actually seen them play

332
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,040
Speaker 1: at this at this venue, and we're got back to

333
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,840
Speaker 1: to Andy that this was a pretty cool band. And Andy,

334
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 1: by this point in sixty early sixty six, he was

335
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 1: already a prolific painter, sculptor, filmmaker, and he was trying

336
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 1: to expand and his sort of factory empire into rock

337
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 1: and roll, and uh and and he dropped in and

338
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,120
Speaker 1: he saw the band perform and he really liked them,

339
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 1: and he offered to be there their manager, and this

340
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 1: kind of had very loose connotations. I think he was

341
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,439
Speaker 1: almost more of like an executive producer. He sort of

342
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,160
Speaker 1: financed their records and gave them spots at his multimedia

343
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,679
Speaker 1: art shows, The Exploding Plastic Inevitable, and he used his

344
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,160
Speaker 1: clout to get them record deals. I mean that Lou

345
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:26,879
Speaker 1: Reid would say in later years that he thought that

346
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 1: the band got their first record deal because Andy agreed

347
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,679
Speaker 1: to do the sleeve for their album, which is you know,

348
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,119
Speaker 1: probably true at that time. As far as shaping their sound,

349
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 1: he really didn't do much. He he he urged Lou

350
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,439
Speaker 1: to keep the dirty words in his lyrics. That was

351
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 1: his big his big, his big insight. And he also

352
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,320
Speaker 1: he would just sort of hector Lou to write more.

353
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,359
Speaker 1: I mean, in a lot of ways, he wanted to

354
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 1: Lou to write in the same way that Andy himself

355
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 1: would just crank out prints and silk screens at his factory.

356
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,720
Speaker 1: You know, he treated it like work, and he was

357
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,200
Speaker 1: incredibly prolific. Lu less so so to be helpful, and

358
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,119
Speaker 1: he would would just throw song titles at him. Are

359
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: just things that he thought would make good song titles

360
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,680
Speaker 1: and just kind of urge him to keep writing. And

361
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 1: the other main influence that Andy had on the Velvet

362
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,200
Speaker 1: Underground was he thought they weren't glamorous enough. He thought

363
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 1: they were kind of boring to look at. So he suggested,

364
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 1: suggested it's kind of two weak a word. He forced

365
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,800
Speaker 1: them to team up with this very striking German model

366
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,239
Speaker 1: known as Nico Yes. And this ends up being a

367
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,199
Speaker 1: big point of contention, especially for lou Reid, because he

368
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 1: wants us to be his band, you know, as far

369
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,280
Speaker 1: as he's concerned, he's the front man. And now Andy

370
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: Warhol wants to put in essentially a new lead singer

371
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,720
Speaker 1: into the band, this beautiful blonde German woman who is

372
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 1: only going to distract the audience from lou Reid. And

373
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 1: he already has to worry about John Klee being in

374
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,920
Speaker 1: the band. You know, it was already I think pretty

375
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 1: apparent that while lou Reid was writing the songs. I

376
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,399
Speaker 1: think John Klee was just as important in The Velvet

377
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 1: Underground early on as lou Reid was, as again as

378
00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,879
Speaker 1: a musical director and as like a sonic innovator. In

379
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground, it's hilarious to me that h lou

380
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 1: Reid ended up writing this song Sunday Morning, which is

381
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 1: like maybe the prettiest pop song on the first Velvet

382
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,960
Speaker 1: Underground record, and it was supposed to be for Nico

383
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,680
Speaker 1: to sing, but then I guess he realized that was

384
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,400
Speaker 1: such a great song that like he wanted to sing

385
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 1: it himself, so, you know, very resistant to bringing in Nico.

386
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: I have to say though, that I think Andy Warhol's

387
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 1: instincts were correct. I love the fact that Nico's on

388
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 1: that first record, and when you have songs like fem

389
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: Fatale and I'll Be Your Mirror, those are just like

390
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 1: perfectly like crafted for her persona, and I think it

391
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 1: brings something unique to that record that sets it apart

392
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 1: from the other Velvet Underground records. What's also interesting, I guess,

393
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 1: like in a behind the scenes kind of way with

394
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 1: a Velvet Underground, is that lou Reid and John Cale

395
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 1: both had flings with Nico and Um like around the

396
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,479
Speaker 1: same time, right around the same time. And think like

397
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,360
Speaker 1: I mean didn't like lou Reid like Wright fem fatall

398
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: like about that, like like Atwood, Yeah, you know, early

399
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 1: rumors type record UM and I have to imagine that

400
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,400
Speaker 1: there was some tension, like between Lou and John over

401
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,680
Speaker 1: that that they were involved with the same woman. Or

402
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,159
Speaker 1: maybe it was just the sixties and people were cooler

403
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 1: about that sort of thing. But I would think that

404
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,960
Speaker 1: that would, you know, sort of exacerbate the sense of

405
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: competition that was already brewing between these guys. Yeah, it's funny.

406
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 1: It's it's almost like with David Crosby and Graham Nash.

407
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 1: But Joni Mitchell, It's been spoken about so much over

408
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 1: the years, but I've never heard any like stories of

409
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 1: resentment about that. But you're right, it has to have

410
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 1: played some kind of role in in just the growing

411
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: tensions between them. It must have. But so called Banana album,

412
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,520
Speaker 1: it goes on to become, you know, one of the

413
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 1: most influential albums of all time, stripping away the legend,

414
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,880
Speaker 1: though I think you can kind of see the schism

415
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: between Nico and the rest of the band. I mean,

416
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,200
Speaker 1: Lou insists did that the album be called The Velvet Underground,

417
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 1: and Nico just to underscore the fact that she really

418
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 1: wasn't part of the group. This was like, you know,

419
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: a collaborative thing, and she wasn't in the Velvet Underground,

420
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 1: and I think that there's I mean, Ne's necessarily in

421
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: a bad way, because it's one of the things that

422
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: makes it cool about it. There's a certain lack of

423
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 1: cohesion I think on the album. I mean, just the

424
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: differences from song to song are jarring, you know, in

425
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: a way. In a way, it's like a microcosm of

426
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: Lose solo career just distilled into one disc. And just

427
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: looking at the first four songs, You've got Sunday Morning,

428
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,119
Speaker 1: which is just the catchiest, breeziest song. It almost sounds

429
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: like sinister. It's you almost imagine he's like a knife

430
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: behind his back when he's singing it or something. It's

431
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: like a parody of a Harper's Bizarre track or something.

432
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: He really sends his his past working at as a

433
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: as a hit cribber at Pigwick Records, coming to the

434
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,360
Speaker 1: four here, and then you've got the relentless I'm Waiting

435
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: for the Man, which is you know, punk a decade

436
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 1: early with his street poetry that I think recounts Low

437
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 1: and John's journey uptown to busk and to sell drugs.

438
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: And then you've got Nico coming in for fem Fatal

439
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: with her sort of Germanic accent, slightly flat reading of

440
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 1: lose lyrics. And then of course you have Venus and First,

441
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: which to me is when you hear Velvet Underground for

442
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 1: the first time. I mean, you know Venus and First.

443
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: It might be about S and M, it could be

444
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: about anything, just it's so musically shocking that it is

445
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: just never anything like it before. Yeah, I think with

446
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: Venus in Furs on that first record, that is where

447
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground really makes a break from rock music

448
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: as it existed before that album. You know, the collision

449
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: of noise and subversive lyrics. You know that menacing feeling

450
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: that you were talking about, and how it all holds

451
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: together with surprising melody. I mean, that record is so

452
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: noisy and like repulsive in a lot of ways, but

453
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: it's also very seductive and uh, you know it, there's

454
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: a magnetism to it that draws you into the murk

455
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: and the direc and the filth, even as like you

456
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: feel haunted by it. You know, to me, that's just

457
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground by in a nutshell. And then of

458
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: course you have Heroin, which we've already talked about. I mean,

459
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 1: That's another obvious landmark on this record. I mean much

460
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: has been said about like how groundbreaking the lyrics are,

461
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: but the way the music conveys what the lyrics are

462
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: expressing to me is like is the true brilliance. I

463
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: think of that track, it's it's addiction, you can't stop,

464
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: it gets going faster and faster, you can't get off

465
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: this train. It's it's incredible, and it's incredible with the

466
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: way he was able to convey that. Yeah, And I think,

467
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, you can really see like the way that

468
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: Kale connected with Reed's words and how he was able

469
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: to convey what those words were expressing musically, you know,

470
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: to me, like Heroin is like the peak of that.

471
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: And look, so much has been said about the first

472
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: Relevet Underground record, one of the greatest and most influential

473
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 1: rock records of all time, and it really shows the

474
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 1: power of what lou Reid and John Kale could do together.

475
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: But unfortunately it's also in many ways the beginning of

476
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: the end, because we see that their partnership is going

477
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: to like pretty quickly disintegrate after that. And I think

478
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: it really starts with lou Reid's decision to fire Andy

479
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: Warhol as their manager, which let's just take a moment

480
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: to appreciate, like how ballsy that was of loue Reid

481
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: to do that, because Andy Warhol, you know, was maybe

482
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: the most famous artists in the world at that time,

483
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: I mean, if not the most famous, like among the

484
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: most famous, just a huge media star. And as you

485
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: said before, I mean it's unlikely the Velvet Underground would

486
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: have even had a record deal if Andy Warhol hadn't

487
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: designed their album cover and like literally put his name

488
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: on the cover of the record. Like I don't think

489
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground's name is on the cover of the

490
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: Banana record, but like Andy Warhol's name is, you know,

491
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: which I think tells you a lot about uh, you know,

492
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: the level of celebrity that he had at that time.

493
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: But um, I think for lou Reid, he came to

494
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 1: see Andy warhol celebrity as a liability at some point

495
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: that like this guy who uh you know, was there manager,

496
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: was in many ways bigger than the band that he

497
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: was managing, and you really start to see lou Reid,

498
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: i think, asserting himself as like the sole tour of

499
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: this band, like he wants to be the one perceived

500
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: to be in the driver's seat, and I think when

501
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: that first record ultimately proved to be a commercial failure,

502
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: it was probably like justification enough in his mind to

503
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: make a change in management. So they end up hiring

504
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: this guy named Steve says Nick, who is essentially like

505
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: a Lou Read loyalist. And that's certainly how John Kale

506
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: sees it, because from his perspective, you know, this new

507
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: manager comes in and he's really pushing Lou Read to

508
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: the forefront, and Kale is starting to feel marginalized in

509
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: this band. And I think rightly he felt like he

510
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: was a co pilot at the Underground, But because of

511
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: this new manager and also Lou Reid, you know, his

512
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: insecurity or his need for power, however you want to

513
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: put it, it's putting John Kale in a corner. And

514
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: John Kale is not going to be comfortable in that

515
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: corner for very much longer. All right hand, we'll be

516
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: right act with more rivals, and this sets the stage

517
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: for sessions for it would become white light, white heat,

518
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: and Lou feels liberated at this point. He'spired Warhol, He's

519
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: gotten rid of Nico at this point as well, It

520
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: gave him a taste of what true control felt like,

521
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: and he was less and less inclined to compromise with

522
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: the band, and the pushing pool between him and John

523
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: is really apparent in this album, and it's been characterized

524
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: as a sonic war. Kale is still this musical director

525
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: and he's adding form to lose improvisation. But Read's insistence

526
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,239
Speaker 1: on sort of making melody more, you know, giving more

527
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: importance to melody and and narrative lyrical narrative reigned back

528
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: some of John's wilder experiments. And for Kle, he really

529
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: saw this as as an experiment and what he called

530
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: anti beauty. It was like sort of the antithesis of commercial.

531
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: He would say, I wanted to fund these songs up

532
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: and uh Mo Tucker called it structed lunacy, which is

533
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: also really good. And it makes sense that this is

534
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: John Kle's last album with them because Lou was trying

535
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: to push things in a more commercial direction. He wanted

536
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: this to be a commercial success and uh and John

537
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: Cabel later saying, you know the problem with the Velovets

538
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: was it was always a conflict between doing revolutionary songs

539
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: like Venus and Furs and pretty songs, and you know,

540
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: John obviously was on the side of what he called

541
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: the revolutionary songs. And I think the best illustration of

542
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: this kind of sonic war was s ster Ray, which

543
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: is this seventeen minute you know, done in one take.

544
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: Because everybody was more or less fed up with each

545
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: other at this point, I said, Okay, you know, do

546
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: whatever you want. We're going We're giving it all. We

547
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: got to this one take, and it's really indicative of

548
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: their relationship because I mean, it just sounds like a

549
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: musical battle, like especially when John turns his organ up

550
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: about ten minutes in starts trying to blast through lose guitar.

551
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: I mean it, it's really it's striking to hear. And uh,

552
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: I think that for all of the collaboration that they

553
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: had on the album that works so well, Lou would

554
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: still pull these kind of sneaky power moves, like I

555
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: think he remixed the Masters behind the band's back, and

556
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: he would later claim full ownership of all the writing

557
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: and arranging, which which obviously kissed Kale off. But you know,

558
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: if if White Light White Heat Like was a war

559
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: between you know, John Kale, like you said one to

560
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: do revolutionary songs, and lou Read wanted to do pretty songs.

561
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: Then John Kale like won that album because that is

562
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: a very noisy record. There are moments of beauty on it,

563
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: but like it's definitely like the chaos wins out on

564
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: that record. Uh, and the Velvets wouldn't make a record

565
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: remotely like that after John kle laughed. I mean, if

566
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: you listen to you know, the self titled album and Loaded,

567
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: they're much more straightforward, conventional sounding rock records. I think

568
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: they're both wonderful albums, loaded with just tons of great

569
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: Lou Read songs, but that uh, innovative musical quality that

570
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: the first two Velvet Underground records have, I mean, they're

571
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: undeniably missing from the next two records. What's interesting to

572
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: me is this binary that existed at this time between

573
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: like lou Reid supposedly wanted to do pretty songs and

574
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: John Kylee wanted wanting to do noisy songs. Because if

575
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: you look at their subsequent like solo careers, I think

576
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: John Kale made like a like many albums that are

577
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: very pretty and like very kind of singer songwriter oriented.

578
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: I mean really like his most celebrated solo records like

579
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: Paris nineteen nineteen or vintage Violence. Uh, you know, it's

580
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: like piano bassed songs that have great melodies. And he

581
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: has a really nice singing voice. I think arguably he

582
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: has like a nicer singing voice than lou Reid, even

583
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: though I love lou Read's vocals. Meanwhile, lou Reid made

584
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: some of the most like alienating rock records of the era.

585
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: I mean, starting with metal machine music. I mean, you

586
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: don't get much noisier than that, even up until like

587
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: the end of his career making you know, Lulu with Metallica,

588
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: you know, very noisy, alienating, you know, kind of break

589
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: the mold type music. So it shows that like both

590
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: guys were capable of like doing what the other guy did.

591
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: Just wonder like if lou Reid was going to contradict

592
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: whatever John Kale wanted, you know, to me, he strikes

593
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: me as like one of the most famous contrarians in

594
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: rock music. Like if if John Kale wanted to make

595
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: a pretty record, I wonder if lou Reid would have

596
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: wanted to make a noisy record. You know, I just

597
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: think that he was like ready to get John Klee

598
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: out of the band, Like he wanted it to be

599
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: his band, John Kile, I think ceased being a collaborator

600
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: in Lou Read's eyes and now became a threat. So

601
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: it's like I have to get rid of the threat

602
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: in my band. And John took a very uh an

603
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: interesting view of all this in later years when he

604
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: was talking to the band's biographer, he said, Lou and

605
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: I eventually found the group too small for the both

606
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: of us, so I left, which is sort of a

607
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: self serving view on history, because reality Lou fired. Lou

608
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: went to a Granite Village coffee shop with with Sterling

609
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: and Moe and basically said, look, either he goes or

610
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: I go. And that really wasn't much of a choice

611
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: because if you're your primary songwriter leaves the band, there's

612
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: not much of a not much of a band left

613
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: to really save. So so that the decision was made,

614
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: Lou didn't even do it himself. He sent Sterling over

615
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: to fire John, who viewed it, you know, understandably as

616
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: as a betrayal. He characterized it as being stabbed in

617
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: the back. And you know, Velvet Underground fans would spend

618
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: decades uh passing through all the many reasons why this

619
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: might have happened, and sort of the great music that

620
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: could have been made between them in later years if

621
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,239
Speaker 1: they'd stuck it out together. So John Chale is out

622
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: of the band as of nineteen sixty eight. The Velvet

623
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: Underground end up making two more records with lou Reid

624
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: at the head. As I said before, there's the self

625
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: titled record from nineteen sixty nine, and there's Loaded from

626
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, and then by nineteen seventy lou Reid himself

627
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: has exited the band and he starts his own solo career.

628
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: And you know, I've recently gone through like a heavy

629
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: lou Read solo period phase, like where I was listening

630
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: to all of his records, because you know, I've always

631
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: loved lou Read, but I was probably more of a

632
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground person than a Lou Read solo artist, you know,

633
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: partisan But I've really come around to his records recently.

634
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: Although I think you have to decide that you love

635
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: lou Read solo records in order to get into them,

636
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: because because he does have this pattern in his career

637
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: where he makes a record that is maybe a commercial breakthrough,

638
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: like Transformer, and then he follows it up with like

639
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: the most anti commercial move that you can imagine, like

640
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: making a record like Berlin, Like I don't know, it's

641
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: two steps forward, one step back. Are you a fan

642
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: of Berlin? By the way, I love the record Berlin,

643
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: but it's probably the most oppressing rock record ever made.

644
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 1: It's too it's too much for me. I can't live

645
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: in that world too long. I'm afraid I'm gonna get

646
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: like it's like the Nothing from the Never Ending Story.

647
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: It's just this black wave. I'm afraid I'm gonna get

648
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: sucked in. I mean, I appreciate it for what it is,

649
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: but it's definitely not something I'm more of. A John

650
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: Kale solo. Vintage violence I think is amazing Paris, but

651
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: a lot of of you know, the Berlin era loose

652
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: stuff I can't handle too much. If you've never heard Berlin.

653
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: There is literally a song on that record called the Kids,

654
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: where the backing vocals I'm gonna put the backing vocals

655
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: in and quotes are are just screaming children, like literally

656
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: screaming children, and they are and they were actually screaming.

657
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: It was Bob Ezrin, the producer. I think it was

658
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: his kids, And I forget what he told them exactly

659
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: like he might have said that like their mother died

660
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: in a car accident or something. He said something to

661
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: his kids to freak them out, so they would scream

662
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: on this track for this lou Reid record, because it

663
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: was the most depressing record of all time, and we

664
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: need legitimately screaming children. So lou Reed makes Berlin and

665
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: at seventy three, and then he follows it up with

666
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: like Sally Can't Dance, which is like almost like a

667
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 1: parody of a mainstream rock record, at least that's how

668
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: I sell it to myself, because it's so inane. It

669
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: was sarcastic. Yeah, it's such a bizarre record that. Yeah,

670
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: it's almost like he's like making fun of like mainstream

671
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: rock listeners for like liking this kind of pap like

672
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: that's the vibe of Sally Can't Dance. And then of

673
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: course he makes Metal Machine Music, which is a record

674
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: that like no one liked at the time. I've actually

675
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: kind of come around to it in later years. I

676
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: think I maybe appreciated it more as like a like

677
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: as a funk you gesture and as music. But it's

678
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: a fascinating record. And then occasionally he would hit upon

679
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 1: like a happy medium, like a record like Coney Island Baby,

680
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: which to me just sounds like essentially like the non

681
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: John Kale Velvet Underground Records, where you know he's writing

682
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: in a melodic style with like great lyrics not too alienating,

683
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: but also like not to mainstream. It's like the Goldilocks Porridge,

684
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: like just right option for Lou Reed Records. His discography

685
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: is like all over the place, But then you have

686
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: John Kale and like, would you agree that? Like his

687
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: discography I think is like pretty consistent. Oh yeah, I

688
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: think it's amazing. I mean it's just said earlier, like

689
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: I really think it was. Their solo careers have so

690
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: much of an element of trying to prove that they

691
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: could do what the other person really wanted to do.

692
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: And I think but John Kale, I mean Vintage Violence

693
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: to me sounds almost more like a band record, like

694
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: the band Not Underground, than like anything by Lamont Young

695
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: or John Cage or anything. I mean, for all of

696
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: the talk of John's way out ideas, then that was

697
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: why he got dismissed from the Velvet Underground. You know,

698
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: it's really accessible in ordinate I mean, tracks like Gideon's Bible.

699
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: It's like a later a Beach Boys song or something.

700
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: And uh. He would later say that he approached the

701
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: album as kind of an exercise to see if he

702
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: could write, you know, like accessible, catchy tunes, um, and

703
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: the results are really stunning. I mean, and he revisits

704
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: his his sort of more avant garde roots with the

705
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: mostly instrumental Church of Anthrax and Academy in Peril. But

706
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: then you've got Paris nine, which is even more poppy

707
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: and delicate. It's almost like like a Van Dyke Parks

708
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: record or something. And you know, I wonder if he's

709
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: not he's trying to beat Lou in his own game.

710
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: He's crafting these incredibly catchy songs, but he's giving him

711
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: these elaborate baroque orchestrations that Lou doesn't have the ability

712
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: or the patients to do. And then the lyrics to

713
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: are almost like short stories. I mean, you've got you know,

714
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: Child's Christmas in Wales and Macbeth and Graham Green and

715
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: in the title track, it's almost like he seesed on

716
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: lose ambition of being like the Raymond Chandler of rock,

717
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: and then he put his own spin on it by

718
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: reflecting his own European heritage and doing it in a

719
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: way that that Luke couldn't touch. And so yeah, I

720
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: I love John stuff. The album Fear is also incredible.

721
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: I think that he definitely has a more consistent solo career,

722
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: at least in the seventies. I also want to shout

723
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: out John Kale's career as a producer because his contributions

724
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: in that regard during this period are maybe even more

725
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: important than like his own albums. I mean, he he

726
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: worked with Nico on the Marble Index, which is a

727
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: mind blowing record way ahead of its time. Lou Reed

728
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: himself talked about how he thought that was like one

729
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: of the best records he'd ever heard. He also ended

730
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: up producing the first Stoges record, He produced the first

731
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: Modern Lovers record, He produced the first Patti Smith record.

732
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: You know, again, like he is at the forefront of

733
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: like bands that defined what punk music was going to be,

734
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: you know, for the next several decades. You know, John

735
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: Kale is there in the background, and that can't help.

736
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: But contrast it with like lou Reid him trying to

737
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: be a producer. This is great story. Chris France's book

738
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: Remain in Love, where he talks about how lou Reid

739
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: almost became a producer for the Talking Heads early on

740
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 1: in their career. Apparently lou Reid saw them I think

741
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: it was at CBGB's, invited the Talking Heads back to

742
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: his apartment and they were hanging out its like maybe

743
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: three or four in the morning, and at one point

744
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: lou Reid takes a court of hogandas ice cream out

745
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: of the freezer, gets a spoon and sits on the

746
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: floor of his apartment and proceeds to eat an entire

747
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 1: court of ice cream while also talking to the Talking

748
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: Heads about like different uppers and downers that he likes,

749
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: Like apparently he has like a textbook in his apartment.

750
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: It's like one of the only things in his apartment

751
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: that it's like a medical textbook of just pills. And

752
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: France says that like lou Reid was going through it

753
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: like it was an l. L. Bean catalog. I'm sorry

754
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: about different pills. Uh. And ultimately Talking Heads decided not

755
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: to work with lou Reid because lou he offered them

756
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: like a really bad deal, basically like a classic record

757
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: company type rip offs type situation. So along with being

758
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 1: you know, kind of out of it. He was trying

759
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: to rip off this band from New York in a

760
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: way that you wouldn't expect an artist to do to

761
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: another artist. But Chris Francis like up and coming artists. Yeah,

762
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: we can't really work with this guy. So yeah, a

763
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: pretty obvious contrast there between John Kale and Lou Read

764
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: in terms of the production work that they've done or

765
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: didn't do. Yeah. You know, if you're gonna ask me

766
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: what I thought some items that would be in liter

767
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: reads apartment, I would probably say a court of hog

768
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 1: and dos, a burned spoon, and a physician's desk, reference

769
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: as being like the three solitary items in his in

770
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: his apartment, sat right, Yeah, Lou for all of his

771
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, being Lou, he was always very complimentary about

772
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: John Kale's solo work, and years later he would say

773
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: if John music runs out of him like water down

774
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: a mountain, which I always thought was a beautiful thing

775
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: to say about him. And contrary to popular belief, Lou

776
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: and John actually did share the stage a few times

777
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: in the seventies prior to their late eighties reconciliation. They

778
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: played with Nico, most famously at a really uh off

779
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: the bootleg now commercially available nine two show in Paris

780
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: and Nico, John and Lou. They performed really mellow, sort

781
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: of acoustic versions of some velvet underground songs and it

782
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: was lose last performance with with Nico before her death

783
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: in the eighties, and he and John got together sort

784
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: of like intermittently a little clubs in New York and uh,

785
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: I think they spent like a Christmas together once in

786
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: the late seventies, but they really didn't get back together

787
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: until the late eighties. Yeah, this album Songs for Drella,

788
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: which is a beautiful record, a duo record where louis

789
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: playing guitar essentially and John Kale is playing keyboards and

790
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: there's no other instrumentation on it. One of the best

791
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: records I think that either one of those guys has

792
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: ever made. But leading up to that, it's interesting to contrast,

793
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: like where they were at in their careers because you know,

794
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 1: Lou and John both we're doing with substance abuse problems

795
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: that they were trying to get over. I think Lose

796
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: problems are much better documented, just because he's more famous

797
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: than John Kale. But Kale himself was addicted to heroin.

798
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: Then he got into cocaine and then booze, you know,

799
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: fairly I think common arc for a lot of rock

800
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: stars at that time, and he really seemed to be

801
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: slipping into obscurity at this time. I mean lou Read again,

802
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: he had his ups and downs throughout the seventies and eighties,

803
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: but there was a period in the eighties where he

804
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: was putting out I think pretty great records that were

805
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: critically acclaimed and that we're doing like fairly well commercially.

806
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: I mentioned the Blue Mask earlier from two. I think

807
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: mostly read fans considered that to be among his very

808
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: best records. And then after that he put out the

809
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: album New Sensations, which had the song I Love You Suzanne,

810
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: which was actually a kind of like a medium sized

811
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: MTV hit in the mid eighties, which is like incredible

812
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: that Louis would have had something like that at that time.

813
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: And then meanwhile, you have John Kale who started doing

814
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: this thing like where he would perform on stage with

815
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: like a hockey mask on and like all old Jason Vorhe' style,

816
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: Like yeah, just crazy. And there was that story where

817
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 1: he was doing his cover of the Elvis Presley song

818
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: Heartbreak Hotel, and like didn't he cut like a like

819
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: the head off a chicken on stage, like literally like

820
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: actually did that. Yeah, and then he threw it into

821
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: the audience just because. And I mean he would tell

822
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: the story of like his bandmates were like almost throwing

823
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: up on stage. Nobody knew he was going to do it,

824
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: and they were absolutely horrified, and they all stormed off

825
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: the stage and disgust. And I guess he wrote a

826
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: song called Chicken Shit in retaliation just that his bandmates

827
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: for for storming off in the middle of him decapitating

828
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: a chicken on the stage. Yeah, he would call it

829
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: his his most effective show stopper ever, which is one

830
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: way of putting it. So it's weird to think of

831
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: John Kale in the same context as like Ozzy Osbourne,

832
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: But like, I think cocaine will do that to you,

833
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: Like there was something about cocaine in the eighties. If

834
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: you were doing a lot of blow. Don't let any

835
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: animal on stage, especially birds. Don't bring any birds on

836
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: stage because they will lose their head get chopped off

837
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: for bitten off. So John kill you know, he's struggling

838
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: to get over his demons. Lou Reid is having an

839
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: up and down career and then their past end up

840
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: intersecting over a tragedy. Essentially, Andy Warhol passed away in

841
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: seven and that ends up being an impetus for these

842
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: two guys to work together again. It was twenty years

843
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: after Lou fired him, and his death was really unexpected.

844
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: He went in for gallbladder surgery and he was only

845
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: fifty eight, so it was not something anyone was expecting.

846
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: And Lou and Andy's relationship had been really weird. It

847
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: had been twenty years, as I said, after he was fired,

848
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of resentment on Andy's part.

849
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: I guess he was really angry at Lou for not

850
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 1: visiting him when he got shot in nineteen sixty eight

851
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: my Valerie Salanas, and it got really petty. I mean,

852
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: Lou and Andy would be sitting in the same row

853
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: at the MTV Awards in four, which is amazing on

854
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: its own, and Lou wouldn't speak to him, just things

855
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: like that, and didn't invite Andy to his wedding because

856
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: he thought Andy would bring too many people, just a

857
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: lot of like little things and so, and he was

858
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 1: very hurt by that. So when he died, I think

859
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: Lou tremendous wave of remorse for the way that he

860
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: treated him all these years. And he goes to his

861
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: memorial service at a church in New York and he

862
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: runs into to John Kale and they're sort of, you know,

863
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: mutual friends are there, and they lead him to each

864
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: other and there's a bit of what John would say,

865
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: it was sort of eggshell walking for a little bit

866
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: of time, but they let their guard down and they

867
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: started to discuss the notion of recording a musical tribute

868
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: something for Andy, just in recognition of his tremendous role

869
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: in in their career. Uh And it was mostly Kale's idea.

870
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 1: He was sort of the primary motivator, and he was

871
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: the one who kind of embraced the fall on their

872
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: relationship and made the calls. And this became Songs for Drella,

873
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: and Drella was a nickname for Andy. It was a

874
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: portmanteau of Dracula and Cinderella, which was a name that

875
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: Andy didn't like very much. So I always thought that

876
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: was very very interesting choice to have that as the

877
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: title for the tribute record. Yeah, I think it suits

878
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: the record in a lot of ways because it's an

879
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: album that has a lot of affection for Andy. Warhol,

880
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: but it's not a sent of and all tribute. It

881
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: is really awards and all depiction of how Lou and

882
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure John felt about Andy Warhol and also how

883
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: Andy Warhol felt about lou Reid. And to me, it really,

884
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: you know, exemplifies I think the greatness of Lou Read's

885
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: writing that he's a songwriter that never just had like

886
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: a simplistic type approach to his lyrics, so they were

887
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: never just about one thing. He could express multiple emotions,

888
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: like complicated feelings, all at the same time. And I

889
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: think it really suited this record really well because it

890
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: does feel like two people grieving someone that they looked

891
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: up to, but again, it also has the feel of

892
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: like we're not going to sugarcoat how awful this guy

893
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: could be at the same time. The song that always

894
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: stands out to me that I think is a great

895
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: collaboration between lou and John is that song a Dream

896
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: Like that's the song that that jumps out to me,

897
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: like you know that song right? Oh, yeah, incredible song.

898
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: It takes passages from Andy's diary which had recently been published,

899
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: and it's all Andy and his diary, uh ship talking

900
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: lou Reid basically, and John gets to read those passages

901
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: to Lou. I mean it's it's an incredible artistic choice

902
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: because I can't really think of anybody in an artistic

903
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: sense have been hurt as much, uh you know, equally

904
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: as Andy as John Kale. So I mean he really

905
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: gives I don't want to say, a venom, but he

906
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: gives an emotional authenticity these words that no one else

907
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: could bring. I mean, it's an incredible moment on the record.

908
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: I mean, the lyrics are I saw Lou. I'm so

909
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: mad at him. Lou Reid got married and didn't invite me.

910
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's because he thought I'd bring too many people.

911
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: I don't get it. Could have at least called and

912
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: just things like that. You know, I hate Lou, I

913
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: really do. He won't even hire us for his videos,

914
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: and I was proud of him. Heartbreaking stuff. It's so heavy,

915
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: and there is that subtext to it where, uh, you know,

916
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: lou Reid and John Kale are also reconciling. You know,

917
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: it's like too late for lou Reid to you know,

918
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: reconcile with Andy Warhol in this life, but he is

919
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 1: able to reconnect with with John Kale. And I'm sure

920
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,919
Speaker 1: you know some of the things that Andy Warhol felt

921
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: about Lou Reed. I'm sure John Klee felt the same way,

922
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: you know, because he was also fired, kicked out of

923
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: the Velvet Underground Circle, you know, many years earlier. I

924
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: love the performance too, that they filmed for that album.

925
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: I think it was at St. Anne's Church in Brooklyn,

926
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: and again, it's just those two guys on stage. Louis

927
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: playing guitar, John Kale playing piano, no othern musicians. It's

928
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: a very intimate performance and it does feel like two

929
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: friends that have been a strange for a long time

930
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: reconnecting musically and communicating through these songs that are wonderful.

931
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: But again there's always that underlying subtext of the relationship

932
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: between these two guys, how they're working through it. And

933
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: it's just riveting because again it's I think there's a

934
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: lot of warmth and affection there, but it's non sentimental.

935
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: It's very honest, and all of the resentment and anger

936
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,439
Speaker 1: and frustration that was also inhering these relationships that comes

937
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: to the four two, along with all of the I

938
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: think genuine love and camaraderie that existed. Yeah, and this

939
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: sort of sets the stage for the reunion that they

940
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: have a few years later. Songs Pagela comes out, takes

941
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: a few years for for the fall to really set in.

942
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: It's funny they've been offered so much money for tours

943
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: over the years and they actually finally have their reunion.

944
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: It was an impromptu moment at a at a Andy

945
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: Warhol exhibit in France. Lou and John are performing songs

946
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: from songs Padella and Sterling and more in the audience,

947
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: and then they welcome them on stage and they play

948
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: a couple of songs together and they end up having

949
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: a full scale reunion. A few years after this, they

950
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: tore Europe. It was going to be basically a dry

951
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: run for a bigger American tour, and it was great.

952
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: Was the first time the band had ever played Europe.

953
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: Was really the first time that most people had ever

954
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: seen the band perform, and it was seen as almost

955
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: like a huge risk because the band were this mythic,

956
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: you know, untouchables, almost like if the Beatles had reunited

957
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: or something. It was there was fear that it was

958
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: better in people's imaginations and to see them in the

959
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: early nineties, you know, on stage. But it was the

960
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: tour UH. From a musical standpoint, UH was was fairly successful,

961
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: but the same old resentments came back, mostly with Lou

962
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: who wanted to basically control as many elements as he could.

963
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: There was a live album that was put together that

964
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: he demanded the right to produce, and they wouldn't let

965
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: him do it, so he brought his right hand man,

966
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: Mike Rathkey to do the job, and UH and John

967
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: Kale would always complain about the album's mix. He said

968
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: that the bootlegs sounded better than the results, and the

969
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: back cover of the live album has all songs written

970
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: by Lou Reed in text that's bigger than the song

971
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: titles themselves. Yeah, and there was also that thing like

972
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: where they were going to play an MTV plugged and

973
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: that had to get scuttled because Lou Reid insisted on

974
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: producing those recordings as well. I think that there was

975
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: also talk of doing an American tour at some point,

976
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: and that ended up getting canceled because, you know, the

977
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: old thing that existed in the sixties are weird its

978
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: head again, whether you want to call it Lou Reid,

979
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, being a megalomaniac or him being insecure he

980
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: had to be in control of the Velvet Underground, and

981
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,479
Speaker 1: it is I think especially weird or funnier Roneck Harver,

982
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: you want to put it that like, you know, John

983
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: Kale again, he has this great reputation for being a producer,

984
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: you know, much better track record than lou Reid does.

985
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: And yet you know, lou Red had no interest in

986
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: letting John Klee sort of helping to guide these recordings.

987
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: So you know, John Kale could see the writing on

988
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: the wall and he was like, look, I I can't

989
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 1: be in this situation again. I have my own career.

990
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: I don't have to put up with lou Reid anymore,

991
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: he said at one point, you know, it was the

992
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: end of a very fruitful relationship, a poison one, but

993
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: it has been fruit full. So it really the only

994
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: performed together one more time when the Velvet Underground was

995
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Uh,

996
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: they performed a song called last Night I Said Goodbye

997
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: to My Friend, which was dedicated to Sterling Morrison who

998
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: passed away, and they played that song as a trio

999
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: Read Kale and Mo Tucker, and that was it. No

1000
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 1: more Velvet Underground after that, when Lou Read died in October.

1001
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: John put out a tribute on Facebook which I'll probably

1002
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: have a hard time reading out loud because I find

1003
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 1: it so sweet. The world has lost to find songwriter

1004
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: and poet. I've lost my schoolyard, Buddy ellaborated in a

1005
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: further statement, the news I feared the most pales in

1006
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: comparison to the lump in my throat and the hollow

1007
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 1: in my stomach. Two kids have a chance meeting, and

1008
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: forty seven years later we fight and love the same way.

1009
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: Losing Losing either one is incomprehensible, no replacement value, no

1010
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: digital or virtual Phil broken now for all time. Oh yeah,

1011
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: you know. Lou once said that, you know, someone asked

1012
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 1: him if you know how he felt about John Klee

1013
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: and and Mo Tucker, and he said, yeah, we fight

1014
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: like all the time, but like I'm the only one

1015
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: who's allowed to say anything bad about them. If anyone

1016
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: else has anything bad about them, I'll defend them to

1017
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: the death, you know, which to me really speaks to

1018
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: how they I think looked at each other as family.

1019
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 1: You know, like Lou Reid and John Kale, they were

1020
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: like brothers who fought all the time, but they were

1021
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: always going to have each other's back when the chips

1022
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: were down, and uh, you know, when lou Reid died,

1023
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: I think John Kilee recognized that, Like, I'm connected to

1024
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: this guy, you know, as much as he might drive

1025
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: me mad, sometimes we're always going to be together. And

1026
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 1: you know, we've done so many great things. We're gonna

1027
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: take a quick break and get a word from our

1028
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: sponsor before we get to more rivals. All right, we now,

1029
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: which is the part of the episode where we give

1030
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: the pro side of each part of the rivalry. Uh,

1031
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: let's do lou read first. I mean, look to me,

1032
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 1: he is one of the greatest writers in rock history, um,

1033
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: and especially as a lyricist. He's on a very short

1034
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: list for me with Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, and Bruce Springsteen.

1035
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: He's one of the few lyricists I think where you

1036
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: can read the words on a page and it works

1037
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: almost as well as it does in a song, Like

1038
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: it really does read like literature. There's also the fact,

1039
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: and again this has been remarked by many people, but

1040
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: I think it bears repeating that Lou Reid really did

1041
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: expand the subject matter of what rock songs could be.

1042
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: I think as much as Bob Dylan did, he brought

1043
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: I think a literary quality to rock music that a

1044
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: lot of people I think I've tried to live up to,

1045
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 1: but I don't think they've quite matched what lou Reid

1046
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: was able to do in his best songs. And louis too.

1047
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: You know, he's one of the great characters in rock history.

1048
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: You know, he's an eccentric, he's a crank, but he's

1049
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,320
Speaker 1: always riven ng And you know, as much as I

1050
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: would be afraid to interview lou Reid, you know, as

1051
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: a rock critic and journalist, I'm sure he would have

1052
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: hated my guts. It's like I still I think would

1053
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: have relished the oportunity to be insulted by lou Reid.

1054
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, there's no greater honor than that.

1055
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, he had the voice, he had

1056
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: the attitude, he had the swagger, and in Velvet Underground

1057
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: he had the melodies. And I think John Kale would

1058
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 1: have been completely content to be the next Stockhouse under

1059
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: John Cage. And I think that lou Reid is the

1060
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: one who actually had the ambition to reach sort of

1061
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 1: mainstream or at least semi mainstream listeners, and his ambition

1062
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: to write adult rock and roll, you know, may sounds

1063
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: kind of bloated, but it was sincere and I think

1064
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: his efforts really did push the genre forward. And not

1065
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: to be too reductive, but I think that his songs,

1066
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: especially on the first album UH, gave Kale a product

1067
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: to edit or you know, when his words funk up, like,

1068
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: I don't think anything would have happened in those first

1069
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: Velvet Underground sessions if Kale had been the one in

1070
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 1: the leadership position. I think that Reid was the engine

1071
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: of the band, and Cale responded to what he was given,

1072
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: and I think he was given great stuff because he's

1073
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: freaking Lou Reid and he's one of the most compelling

1074
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: artists of all time. Moving over to the pro John

1075
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: Kale side, you know, well, I think you can obviously

1076
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: make a case for Lou Reid pushing rock music forward

1077
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: as a lyricist. I think in a lot of ways,

1078
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 1: John Kale did the same thing musically by bringing in

1079
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: these avant garde and classical music references, the drone, the noise,

1080
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: you know, the fucking up of like beautiful pop songs

1081
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: and taking them to a much different and experimental place.

1082
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: You know. I happened to love the Velvet Underground records

1083
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: that came out after John Kale left the band, But

1084
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: there's no question that they became a more normal rock

1085
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: band in his absence. Even with like Lou Read's great

1086
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: songs and his great lyrics, I'm not sure that they

1087
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: would be regarded as revolutionary as they are now if

1088
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: John Kale hadn't have been in the band. You know,

1089
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: I think that they would have been looked at as

1090
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: a really great sixties rock band with amazing lyrics, but

1091
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, musically kind of doing what a lot of

1092
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,879
Speaker 1: other bands were doing. But the things that John Kale

1093
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 1: brought in it just took those songs to a different place.

1094
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: And I think even now those records stand out as

1095
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: being really in a vative and cutting edge and fresh

1096
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: and energetic. And I think it's always going to be

1097
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: that way as long as people care about rock music. Yeah,

1098
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: I think John Kale's drone tone was really his gift

1099
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: to the band as far as I'm concerned. I mean,

1100
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 1: you hear that in many of Velvet Undergrounds best tunes.

1101
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: I mean, Heroin Venus and furs Hey, Mr Rain, the

1102
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: Base on White Light, White Heat. He showed you the

1103
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: power and versatility of a single note, and his talents

1104
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: as a producer later in his career showcase. I think

1105
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: what he brought to the Velvets. He has this gift

1106
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: for arranging and orchestrating and sort of overseeing the construction

1107
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: of sound, and I think he's just this incredible interpreter

1108
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: helping other artists find their voice. And he did that

1109
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: with Iggy Pop, he did that with Nico, We did

1110
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 1: that with Patti Smith, he did that with Modern Lovers,

1111
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: but he did it first with Lou Reed. I think

1112
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: that John helped Lou find his style and move away

1113
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 1: from the sort of more folky approach to this edge,

1114
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 1: ear more abrasive sound that became, you know, the Velvet's

1115
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: trademark sound. And uh, you know, in later years, John

1116
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: proved to be a really incredible singer in his own right,

1117
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: but I think his genius is really in arranging. I mean,

1118
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: that's why when we think of the song Hallelujah, we

1119
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: don't think of Leonard Cohen when we think of John Kale's.

1120
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: And uh, just as an aside too, I just I

1121
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: really appreciate John Kale's authenticity. You know, so much of

1122
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: what Lou seemed to do seemed to center around poses

1123
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: to me at least, and I feel that that Cale

1124
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,720
Speaker 1: really poured his heart and feelings into to his songs

1125
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: in in the seventies period at least, and imbuing them

1126
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: with this intensity and emotional charge that I think is

1127
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: you know, really rare in contemporary pop music. So when

1128
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: we look at these two guys together, I mean, look,

1129
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: just listen to the first two Levet Underground records and

1130
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: listen to songs for Drella. You know, like those three

1131
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: albums I think are all masterpieces, and it really shows

1132
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: that for as much tension you know, existed between these

1133
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 1: two guys, they really were soulmates personally and professionally. You

1134
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: know that they could see in each other like what

1135
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 1: made them great and how they could take what the

1136
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: other guy did and create something that was I think,

1137
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: ultimately greater than the sum of its parts, even though

1138
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: both parts are worth a whole hell of a lot.

1139
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: It really is, like, I think, one of the great

1140
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 1: collaborations in rock history. And while it's sad that they

1141
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: didn't do more together, I feel like maybe we should

1142
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: just be grateful that they were able to make records

1143
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: together at all, you know, like the records that they

1144
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: made are all really amazing and always worth revisiting. Lose

1145
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: lyrical skills and his gift for melody, and John's sort

1146
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: of European orchestra orchestral sensibilities and daring avant garde arrangements.

1147
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: I think that's what elevated them from being a highly

1148
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: literate garage band, like sort of a nihilist fugs or something,

1149
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: to to something greater, something. As I said earlier, that

1150
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: really pushed the genre forward and still still sounds fresh today.

1151
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: So Jordan's on the show. I like to think of

1152
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: us as Lou Reid and John Kale type collaborators. And

1153
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: I just want you to know that I will always

1154
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: be your mirror. I thought I was Nico, but but

1155
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: I'll take it. I'll take it. This is a tough

1156
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: one for puns. I gotta say the best I had

1157
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: was there. He goes again, But that's that's well. I've

1158
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: been waiting for my man to come up with a gun.

1159
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: I'll keep on waiting, I guess, until our next episode.

1160
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this episode of Rivals. We'll

1161
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: be back with more beefs and feuds and long simming resentments.

1162
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: Next Week Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio.

1163
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Shawn ty Toone and Noel Brown.

1164
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: The supervising producers are Taylor chicogn and Tristan McNeil. The

1165
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: producer is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's run Talk. I'm

1166
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please subscribe

1167
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 1: and leave us a review. For more podcast for my

1168
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1169
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows