1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never Told You from House stepworks 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about the friend zone. 4 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: Do Do Do Do Do Do do scary place, Caroline. 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Have you ever put somebody in the friend zone? Yeah? Not, 6 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: I mean not on purpose. It's not like I eyeball 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: somebody and I'm like, you're going in the friend zone drawer. 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: Oh wait, before we go any further, though, we should 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: clarify what the friend zone is. The friend zone is 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: not as it might sound, like, you know, the zone 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: of friend where like you see someone and you're like, 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: we will be friends. Oh yeah, and then you buy 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: candy together and eat it, share secrets. Uh No. The 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: friend zone is this pop cultural trope I would call 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: it that arguably began into or entered into our lexicon. 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: Uh in nine four with an episode of Friends in 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: which I think Ross got put into the friend zone 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: and Joey was all like, hey, ros, she's in the 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: friend zone and Ross is all like uh, and then 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: it just like balloon from there, and so yeah, the 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: friend zone is when it typically relates to straight guys 22 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: and girls being friends and either the guy or the 23 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: girl developing romantic and or sexual or I should say 24 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: sexual and or romantic feelings for the other person and 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: which goes unrequited. Yeah, exactly, you're just the other person 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: just thinks you're just friends and they want to keep 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: it that way. Yeah, you gotta stay in the friend 28 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: zone exactly. Well, you know, my dude roommate actually makes 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: fun of me because I have a lot of dude 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: friends and occasionally a crush will develop up, uh where 31 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: I am the object of the crush and I don't 32 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: really notice it, or I don't notice it, or I 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: am in denial because I don't want to think that 34 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: like my buddies, my friends feel that way because I 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: have inadvertently put them in the friend zone. But there 36 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: was one instance where I literally I had no idea, 37 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: Like sometimes you know, and you just live in like 38 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: a little denial bubble about us. Is a nice kid 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: to light dinner for two friend these roses? Well know 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: that actually happened to somebody brought me flowers and I 41 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: thought we were just friends up into that point and 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: then yeah, that's a whole other story. But yeah, this 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: one time, No, I was friends with this guy had 44 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: no idea that he had any feelings for me, as 45 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: far as I knew, we were just hanging out having 46 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: a good time. Um. He never let on, He never 47 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: said anything. He never like stared longingly into my eyes 48 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: or anything like that. Uh. And I started going out 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: with a friend of his, and not only was he 50 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: hurt and upset, but he cut me entirely out of 51 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: his life. And not only did he do that, he 52 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: then proceeded to go to some of our mutual friends 53 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: and talk smack about me. Oh that's but I was 54 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: gonna say, if it had just stopped with he cut 55 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: you out of his life, I was gonna say, hey, 56 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: you know what, the friend zone can be tough if 57 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: if you're if your little feelings get out of control. 58 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: But that kind of negative behavior. Yeah, so I think 59 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: he was in an angry friend zone. The friend zone 60 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: of anger and anger can come with a friend zone, 61 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: which is why it can be such treacherous territory, which 62 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: is also why we wanted to talk about it today 63 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: because there has been some scholarship on this concept of 64 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: the friend zone. UM, I feel like I also, um, 65 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: speaking personally, have been I don't I don't know if 66 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: I've been put in the friend zone more than I have. 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: I have friends zoned people. I've done both, you know, 68 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: I've kind of it's more like like getting put in 69 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: the friend zone is more just kind of getting you 70 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: know it puts. It's always been a way of putting 71 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: the relationship in check, of saying like, no, this is 72 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: this is where this needs to be. They should if 73 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: we move forward, it will have terrible consequences. But we'll 74 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: get into those kinds of things later on. But the 75 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: problem is, like, the reason the friend zone even exists 76 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: is because and why perhaps like we have all of 77 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: these like problems with it or questions about it of 78 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: like avoiding getting into it and how to get out 79 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: of it and what do you do? Is because, I mean, 80 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: guys and girls haven't been friends for all that long. Yeah, exactly. 81 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: This is from a great New York Times piece by 82 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: William Derrick Stewitz from April. He said that, you know, 83 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: back in the day, men and women existed in different 84 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: social spheres and that opposite sex friendships were unthinkable. Yeah, 85 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: and then he uh postulates that feminism, first wave feminism 86 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: comes around, and that is our first step toward these 87 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: cross sex friendships. You have the terms boyfriend, girlfriend appearing 88 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: around the eighteen nineties, around the same time that the 89 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: term feminism is coined, and then later on, getting into 90 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, you have the early twentieth century the 91 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: idea of the new woman. She's intelligent, she's well read, 92 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: she's outspoken, her relationships with men are more about seeking 93 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: mental partners and companions rather than just being a a 94 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: wife to be. And then in the nineteen sixties and 95 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: seventies was second wave feminism. The it undergoes this further 96 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: step of breaking down those boundaries of saying, hey, you know, really, 97 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: like if we want to be equals in the workplace 98 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: and equals at home, and equals uh the rank at 99 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: the skating rink, yes, then we gotta learn, like for real, 100 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: zies this time, how to be friends. Yeah, because with 101 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: equality comes working in the same sphere, basically, you know, 102 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: working in the same arena. And so these demands for 103 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: equal rights during the sixties created the conditions for friendship. 104 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: The writer said, uh, you know, it becomes commonplace rather 105 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: than strange or titilating to see a member of the 106 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: opposite sex at work. So now you just have to 107 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: suck it up and deal with it, it becomes not 108 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: as weird. Yeah, but there is a big difference between 109 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: just seeing and interacting with with people at work and 110 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: being friends and being friends. Yes, uh, and there's uh 111 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: some a lot of scholars actually suspect that we might 112 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: have gotten more than we bargained for in terms of saying, hey, 113 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: let's all, let's all be friends. Uh. This is coming 114 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: from a study published uh this year in twelve, coming 115 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: out of the University of Wisconsin, and it's called Benefit 116 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: or Burden Attraction and cross sex Friendships, And it was 117 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: published in the Journal of Personal and Social Relationships. And 118 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: I'm going to read a little bit of a media 119 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: quote from this study because I feel like it sums 120 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: up so well what we have done and why the 121 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: friend zone is so just fraught with with problems for 122 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: for folks. So the authors are right, cross sex friendships 123 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: appear to be more complex than both same sex friendships 124 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: and romantic partnerships, which have a clear place in hetero 125 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: sexist society. Yeah. And I would say again, like, as 126 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: an aside, the friend zone is a very heteronormative concept. 127 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: I would say, in one of the first papers on 128 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: cross sex friendship. There, researcher proposed that cross sex friends 129 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: confront four major challenges for determining the type of emotional 130 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: bond shared, facing sexuality and the relationship, presenting the relationship 131 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: as an authentic friendship to outsiders, and addressing equality in 132 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: the context of gender inequality. Not to mention, and this 133 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: would make number five potential jealousy directed at said friend 134 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: by possible boyfriend's girlfriends spouses. So what a goolash of problems? 135 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: That sounds delicious. It's a meati quote and a ghoulash 136 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: of problems. I think I'm hungry for a roast beef sandwich. Um. Yeah. 137 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: The study looked at eighty eight pairs of undergrad opposite 138 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: sex friends. They found some very significant differences in how 139 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: men and women experience opposite sex friendship, mostly that your 140 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: your male friend wants to sleep with you yeah, and 141 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: your female friend, if you're a man, does not one 142 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: sleeping well. And again this is all in uh like 143 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: a heteronormative context because they're straight cross sex friendships and 144 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: the researchers were so determined to get to the truth 145 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: of friends true feelings for each other that they not 146 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: only separated them but before they would go in one 147 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: by one to divulge their feelings or lack of feelings. 148 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: They made the friends promise each other probably pinky's where cute, 149 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: friendly kind of way, that they wouldn't tell the what 150 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: they talked about to the other person. Yeah, men were 151 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: much more likely to think that their friend was attracted 152 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: to them and more likely to act on this mistakenly 153 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: perceived attraction. So like, if the man really like the woman, 154 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: he kind of projected those feelings and assumed that the 155 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: feelings were mutual and it was just a matter of 156 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: time before they would either date or hook up or whatever. 157 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: But women are blind to It works for women just 158 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: in the opposite direction, because women were generally not attracted 159 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: to their male friends and they assumed the lack of 160 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: attraction was mutual. Oh man, that's some that's some miscommunication happening. 161 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: Miss non communication happening. There was also a follow up 162 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: study by these researchers. They've talked to two forty nine 163 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: adults and found that both men and women did cite 164 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: unrequited romance as a potential negative in cross tex friendships. 165 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: So we know that this there's a potential for this 166 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: to happen. This isn't some kind of surprise finding that 167 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: sometimes a friend can make you think sweet things, but 168 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: there was a different gender difference, and that men were 169 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: still significantly more likely than women to list the possibility 170 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: of romantic attraction as as a benefit. And also the 171 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: older the men got, the more likely, like the wider 172 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: that gender gap grew so older at which I think 173 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: might have to do with how maybe a difference in 174 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: how men perceive the role of women in their lives 175 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: as they mature an age from short term mating possibly 176 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: when you're a young un to longer term companionship. Anyway, 177 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: uh so, so how do you let's talk more about 178 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: the specifics of the actual zone of the friend the friends. 179 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: Lemon Drop that that good old website lemon Drop in 180 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: septem broke it down different types of end zone or 181 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: as opposed to the zone e. There's the never was friend, 182 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: so you start chatting up a girl you're interested in, 183 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: but then end up being platonic pals whatever. Then there's 184 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: the always was friend. So you've seen this person through 185 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: ups and downs, you know, holding her hair back when 186 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: she's puking, going shopping, whatever, and then one day you 187 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: just realized like, holy goodness, I want to get naked 188 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: with this person. Yeah, and that's the stuff that terrible 189 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: rom com movies are made up. Yeah, well, they all 190 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: lead you to believe that, Like, I don't know, and 191 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: this could be part of the argument for why the 192 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: friend zone is such, you know crap. But like all 193 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: these movies just lead you to believe, like if you 194 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: just hold out, it'll work out. And you know what, 195 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: based on my experience, it doesn't a lot of the time. 196 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes it does. I have transitioned friendships into relationships before, 197 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: but it can be sticky. And did it include probably 198 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: a makeover montage for him or for me? Either one. 199 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: I just love a good makeover montage. I do work 200 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: on acrosteatic glasses. But according to this Lemon Drop article, 201 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: there are different types of friend zones as well, and 202 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: I and I do agree with this. There's what the 203 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: author calls a safety zone where you didn't want to 204 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: come on strong and scare off. And this is obviously 205 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: like directed at men. So you never made your objective clear, 206 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: so you just kind of tried to stay neutral. Yeah, 207 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: And like the longer you go without saying something or 208 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: indicating something, the more she just assumes I will, you know, 209 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: we're just friends, and then comes the zone of total confusion, 210 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: where it's you're essentially just dodging mixed signals left and right, 211 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: where one minute you think that she's flirting with you, 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 1: and the next she's talking about some other dude and 213 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: how it's pecks are like to it's huge. Yeah, Well, 214 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: there is an argument about the friend zone being terrible. 215 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the friend zone is terrible for a 216 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: lot of people involved. But I had tried to transition 217 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: a friendship into a more serious relationship and it just 218 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: it just wasn't gonna work. I mean, it just logistically, 219 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: like everything, nothing was gonna work. And so I asked 220 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: the guy, like, well, you know, you've been in my 221 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: life for a really long time. Can we stay friends? 222 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: And he said, Caroline, we can be friends. When that 223 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like I'm coming in second place, Oh yeah, 224 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: that's tough. Yeah. And so this whole coming in second 225 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: argument was written about in the Chicago Tribune in January 226 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: two thousand seven, and the writer Gina b says that 227 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: when a guy agrees to be quote unquote just friends, 228 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: he's forced to stifle his attraction while regularly seeing and 229 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: talking to a woman he's attracted to, and that can 230 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: make anybody crazy. And the thing is too like those 231 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: kinds of dejected feelings and possible uh, negative reactions can 232 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: obviously like affect you, whether you're you know, in whatever 233 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: your position you're in. Yeah, I mean it's it's negative 234 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: and unfortunate for everybody, because if you like someone and 235 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: you pin hopes on them, you you want to hope 236 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: that it works out, whether that's just hooking up with them, 237 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: you know, or actually turning it into a serious romantic relationship. Well. 238 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: And then there's also even though all a lot of 239 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: this stuff is really heteronormative and often displayed as like 240 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: a cross sex thing, they're they're often portrayals now too 241 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: that you see more and more in pop culture of 242 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: straight person or gay person pining for straight or gay friend, 243 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, such as the Jennifer Anderson and Paul Ruddy 244 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: movie The Object of My Affection? Who Wouldn't pine for Paul? 245 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: Read though that's true? Uh and where yes, like Jennifer 246 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: Anderson's like wishing and hoping that perfect gay Paul Rudd 247 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: will one day see her and be like those boobs. Yeah, 248 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: well but you know what, not to trivialize anybody's feelings 249 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: in those situations. But like, at least if the friend 250 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: that you're pining for is of an opposite sexual orientation, yeah, 251 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: that's then easy. You have to just accept that. Yeah, 252 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: it's just a matter of you working on it and 253 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: being like, Okay, I've just got to get a grip 254 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: and move on and feel better about this. But if 255 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: it's somebody of like you know who, you're the gender 256 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: that thy ever, then then it's harder to move on 257 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: because you're more likely to feel it's personally you know, 258 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: it's about me. I'm being rejected well, and you get 259 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: along so well, you are compatible, you assume on these 260 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: many levels, and the only missing piece is sex usually 261 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: I mean not to be and I'm not saying like 262 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: just like doing it, but like all of the chemistry 263 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: that goes along with that. But but this whole friend 264 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: zone concept is also controversial to feminists. Younger feminists out 265 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: there take a take a big stink with the even 266 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: like just the existence of the idea of a friend zone. Yeah, 267 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: there are a couple of bloggers, Stephanie Willis and Alice DeRosier. 268 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: Derosier's over at fem inspired willis. Ever, at least likely, 269 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: they argue that the friend zone is this misogynistic u 270 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: creation from men that they they don't want to accept 271 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: that a woman is not basically a prize at the 272 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: end of friendship. Well, and it's also a thing of like, uh, 273 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, like, well, it's totally wrong if a guy 274 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: thinks that he's like invested something in a woman, you know, 275 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: there should not be ownus, should not be on her 276 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: to have to, you know, make him her boyfriend. And 277 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: this relates back to a two thousand seven post on 278 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: Shakespeare Shakespeare Excuse Me by a guy named Jeff Pech 279 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: writing about what he calls the nice guy, and that 280 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: is capitalized the nice guy. He describes it as. A 281 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: nice guy is a guy who tells you and bitter, 282 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: in a bitter, resentful tone, that women don't date nice guys, 283 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: they only date bad boys. And because he's two nice, 284 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: women only view him as a friend. And there's often 285 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: a lot of aggression that goes along with this of 286 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, and this is again is the capitalized nice 287 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: guys saying like women are just horrible because I'm perfect 288 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: and I treat women incredible and and they just want 289 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: to run off with You know that guy who rides 290 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: a motor there's always a leather jacket involved, some palm aide. Well, no, 291 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: I Actually the thing is I knew a guy like 292 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: that though a couple of years ago. I mean I 293 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: knew a guy who fancied himself to be like the 294 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: ultimate capitalized nice guy, and yet was so bitter and 295 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: angry towards all women that he had gotten consistently put 296 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: in this friend zone. Like he he was basically like 297 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: railing against all women, saying I deserve something now that 298 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: I've put in all this work about being a nice 299 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: guy for so many years. Well, I think the difference 300 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: is the way that you can easily get trapped, maybe 301 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: in that mentality of saying I am whether you're a 302 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: nice guy or a nice girl whoever, and I I 303 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: don't care. Um, I think you have to watch out 304 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: of Uh. Well, you know, I'm great on paper, I 305 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: treat people amazing, but I'm always stuck in this like 306 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: friend space. You might need to just like re examine 307 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: how you go about forming your relationships because there is 308 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: a different There are differences in the way that you 309 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: initiate friendships and you initiate more than friendships. And yes, 310 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: friendship is a wonderful foundation to have for the capital 311 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: our relationships in our lives. That's fundamental. But if it's 312 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: happening all the time, there might be there might be 313 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: something that a piece of the pie that you're not eating, 314 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: but I like it. I want pie. It's pie season. Um, yeah, 315 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: at last, that fin inspire. Basically, her point was that 316 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: she resented the assumption that a man who and who, 317 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: a man who claims to be a nice guy in 318 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: the friend zone deserves this will In's love, et cetera. Um. 319 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: She goes on to say, women don't only exist to 320 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: date or have sex with you. Yeah, and uh sefinitely. 321 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: Stephanie Willison, you mentioned, who's a blogger at at least 322 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: likely wrote a piece about the nice guy and about 323 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: how much she takes issue with the concept of the 324 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: friend zone. And it was focused around a very specific 325 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: anecdote about a nice guy who turned into a not 326 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: so nice guy when he asked her out and she 327 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: was like no, no. He tried to kiss her, that's 328 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: what happened, and she turned him down and then he 329 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: became very rude toward her, and the post attracted a 330 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: ton of attention in the comments, and a lot of 331 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: really negative comments from men who were like, oh, sorry 332 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: for being nice, and then you know, yeah, and then 333 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: a lot of well, a lot of those comments did 334 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: echo what you said earlier about like well, I mean 335 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: I was her friend for years and I supported her, 336 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: and I listened to her talk about other and and 337 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: then she like goes off and keeps dating these jerks 338 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's it's funny, funny, ha ha, funny, weird, funny, sad. Uh, 339 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: the interactions that are happening on the board, I found 340 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: it very interesting. The responses, especially from the women coming 341 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: out of the woodwork to support Willis. Basically a lot 342 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: of them were very kind of sarcastic, supportive comments like 343 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: mocking the men who were commenting, saying, you know, appreciate me, 344 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: I offered you common decency, now put out, you know, 345 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: like really kind of making fun of those men who 346 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: were offended by the friend zone piece, right, I mean, 347 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: like I will say that, uh, those instances of the 348 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: being the friend of the person who's in the friend 349 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: zone acting out, that happens. That certainly happens, and this 350 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, clearly that had happened to Willis, And I 351 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: understand the the expectation that if you invest in someone 352 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: and that they should then pay you back in some 353 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: way is that's just that's not gonna work out. That's 354 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 1: just a false expectation that you're creating for yourself. Um. 355 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: But I do have some sympathy for friend zoned guys 356 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: and girls, and I do think that this happens more 357 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: two guys. Uh. Just this is purely anecdotal, where maybe 358 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: the anger also comes from not so much expecting them 359 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: to uh you know, like that their vaginas or prizes 360 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: or something like that that they should win after putting 361 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: it all this time. But I have seen women friends 362 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: zoned men in the way to where they substitute emotionally 363 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: as boyfriends. They have everything that they need from this 364 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: guy who is obviously pining away. Otherwise he wouldn't probably 365 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: be spending so much time and no, should his reward 366 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: be therefore she must have sex with him. No, But 367 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: I've seen it to almost an abusive extent to where 368 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: at some point, you know, the guy wakes up and 369 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: it's like, oh wow, I'm just being blood dry emotionally 370 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: and I'm not getting anything out emotionally, you know, as 371 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: well as sure physically. Yeah. Well also, I mean relationships 372 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: like that too, can just get in the way of 373 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: finding the person that you're supposed to be with, the 374 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: person that actually does want you to love them and 375 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: dedicate your time to them. And I mean I say 376 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: that as uh, like I saw a girl who has 377 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: a lot of guy friends. Um, and like my roommate 378 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: that I reference, you know, like we spend a ton 379 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: of time together. We're also single, you know, when we're 380 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 1: in relationships and stuff, I guess we spend less time 381 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: with each other, but we've just known each other for 382 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: so long that there aren't any expectations. I mean, he 383 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: really is like my brother. And I'm not just saying that. 384 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: I'm really like his sister too. Um yeah. And I mean, 385 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: and that's a that's a good point to about the 386 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: friend being in the way of you finding anyone else 387 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: if you are, you know, looking to get into a relationship, 388 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: And sometimes that can be the fault not of that 389 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: person in the friend zone, but of the other person 390 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: manipulating you into always you know, keeping you at arm's 391 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: length and giving you just enough to where you'll stick around. 392 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: And sometimes it's subconscious, but sometimes I do think it 393 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: is pathological. Um so advice for what happens once you 394 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: get in the friend zone, or for avoiding getting in 395 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: there in the first place. And this is where we 396 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: get into friends and listeners. Friends, it's one of the same, 397 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: listen to some friends all of us. Uh, this is 398 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: where we get into dicey advice territory. The internet is 399 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: exploding with friend zone advice. And yeah, like it is 400 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: horrible except for the stuff that you hear on this podcast. 401 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: So exactly lucky you for finding this well. Dr Jeremy 402 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: Nicholson on Psychology Today in December posted some advice and 403 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: and I think it's terrible. Yeah, this, uh, this is wow. Yeah, 404 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: it's it kind of reads like the rules for men 405 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: or I guess for women too, but it also reads 406 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: like here, how here's how you can be a little manipulative. Yeah, 407 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: you want to dial down that interest, make yourself scarce, 408 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 1: create some competition by making other friends. Is the worst. 409 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: I think that's the worst because read what he says 410 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: is when you need to create competition, you need to 411 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: make other quote unquote friends. Those quotes are his, so 412 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: he's saying, like, just find a bunch of people to 413 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: shove in your life. Now, it's specifically of this, he says, 414 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: of the sex you're attracted to. So if this is 415 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: a dude, find a spare woman around, maybe lots of them. 416 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: Call up Romney. See if he's got that binder you 417 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: can send down. Yes, get the binder. Call these women up. 418 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: Because Nicholson is saying jealousy is good, and if you 419 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: don't see jealousy, then maybe they're just not interested in 420 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: being more than friends. Yeah, and also, like I guess, 421 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: find some time to do all of this stuff, including 422 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: asking your friend to do things for you, because apparently 423 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: the sign of love is how many favors you get 424 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: from a person, and then once they do all of 425 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: those things like become jealous and bring you take out 426 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: or something like that, you want to reward them. So okay, 427 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: let's just take all of that and say that's what 428 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: you don't do. Because if I found out that a 429 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 1: friend of mine was plotting to like increase my investment 430 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: in that kind of way and make me jealous, that 431 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: is not a friend of mine. Now that and I've 432 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: i've i've yes, I've seen this happen to other friends 433 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: and it's disgusting, like you're not you're not a true friend. 434 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: You are acting in a friendly way a lot of 435 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: the time, you're maybe like going out for drinks with 436 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: this person, hanging out, talking on the phone, doing whatever, 437 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: you know, being activity partners, et cetera. But if you're 438 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: really just waiting around to get in that person's pants 439 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: in the meantime, you're manipulating them, that's that's not friendship. Yeah. 440 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: The only bit of advice that I would say pay 441 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: attention to, uh is make yourself scarce there. Sometimes when 442 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: you have been friend zoned, you do need to make 443 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: yourself scarce for both of you. Yeah, you have to 444 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: re establish the boundaries because once you cross it, Unfortunately, 445 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: you don't even have to you know, they say sex 446 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: changes everything. You don't even have to have sex. You 447 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: don't even have to kiss or touch to change a 448 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: lot of things with a friendship. But we've been talking 449 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: a lot to the guys. Let's talk to the women 450 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: over at glamour dot com. And this is from January 451 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: of M and I and I like a little bit 452 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: more of what she has to say. She's like, you know, 453 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: ask him out right away. Hey, there you go. Yeah, 454 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: don't wait too long, don't make them think that you're 455 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: not interested by you know whatever. Just go ahead, get 456 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: it out there, and then you can figure out this 457 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: is weird though, they're like, and then worry about if 458 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: there's chemistry yeah, and like, don't be subtle. But this 459 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: is when I was Okay, I'll just tell you what 460 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: it is. Don't be goofy or self deprecating. People want 461 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: goofy friends, but they don't want to sleep with goofy people. 462 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: Save goofy for the postdate. Yeah, and in this case, 463 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: if that is true, I will be friend zoned for 464 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: the rest of my life. So screwed I am. So 465 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: I read this, So I'm reading this for the episode 466 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: I'm studying up, I'm reading friends and stuff, and I 467 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: immediately turn to my room and I'm like, Jeff, do 468 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: men not want goofy women or did just people not 469 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: want goofy people? And he was like, I, I'm obviously 470 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: not the right person now because we are both very 471 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: goofy ridiculous people. I like goofy nous. But I feel 472 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: like I see what she's trying to say, like, don't 473 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: just be the class clown, Like let the person know 474 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: that you're actually serious about them. But are you really 475 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: telling me not to be goofy at all? Yeah? I 476 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: mean that's just bad advice. How many times do we 477 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: have to say that and then going on with the 478 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: typical Steve like don't be too available? Established I thought 479 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: this was interesting. Established physical familiarity. So whenever possible, like 480 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: when when you do make that joke, Caroline, just go 481 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: ha and casually tap him on the shoulder, you know, 482 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: or stroke his cheek or push his nose. Yeah, just 483 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: stroke his thigh and see if that's awkward. Um. And 484 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: there's a little bit more basically like what you need 485 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: to do. I don't think that we have to run 486 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: through all of this questionable advice, like if you if 487 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: feelings start to bubble up, you need to take some 488 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: time to yourself figure out what's going on, what is 489 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,239 Speaker 1: motivating you, What is it about the relationship that you 490 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: really like, and maybe you should just take those those 491 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: are you know, signposts of what what you really want 492 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: in a relationship with someone else. You know, if it's 493 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: like a safety factor of familiarity, shared interest, Uh, take 494 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: it as away to learn more about what you like 495 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: and you don't like. Yeah, I mean self awareness is 496 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: definitely key. Because this is from Lemon Drop. They say 497 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: to really look and listen for signs of mutual attraction, 498 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: but be careful that you're not just hearing what you 499 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: want to hear. Yes, because it's entirely possible that, Okay, 500 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: you spend all this time with this person, you've developed feelings, 501 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: maybe you're projecting your own or you think that they've 502 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,239 Speaker 1: said something that leads you to believe they like you. 503 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: To just tread lightly because it might just be that 504 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, you're hoping something that that isn't there, and 505 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: maybe you're just refusing to see it. Yeah, and also 506 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: too if it is uh, I'd say, if it's a 507 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: relatively new friendship, there's plenty of room to to explore, like, 508 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, maybe there is something there there. I mean 509 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: I've I've I've experienced like chemistry with with guy friends 510 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: plenty of times, but it's like for the closest of 511 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: them and the ones that I've known for the longest, 512 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: that's when the chemistry, like any kind of spark I 513 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: would feel I would be like, oh no, what is 514 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: going on? Because that's when you don't wanna you don't 515 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: want to risk a lot, and you don't want to 516 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: risk getting angry at the other person either, Right. Well, 517 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting the friendships that managed to uh 518 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: survive this whole rocky transition, the confession of feelings and 519 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: all that stuff. Um. This is from Boise State University. 520 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: This study. Heidi Reader, who's an associate professor of communication, 521 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: did this study. They found that the people who managed 522 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: to stay friends, who managed to weather the storm of 523 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 1: confessing feelings for your friend, they honestly wanted to stay friends, 524 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: and they actively pursued the friendship, so they kept doing 525 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: some of the same things they've been doing. They verbally 526 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: affirmed like, we're still friends. It's cool. This weird thing 527 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: kind of happened, but you know what, we're going to 528 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: weather it together. Yeah, and um, they the person accepted 529 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: that the feelings were not mutual and they moved on. 530 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: When the friendships dissolved, it was so surprisingly when the 531 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: person who would put him or herself out there became 532 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: awkward or embarrassed, and they still saw that door as 533 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: being opened and we're just waiting and hoping. And it 534 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: sounds like I I would bet in those kinds of situations. 535 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: Because these were based on on interviews with people about 536 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: when they had experienced this kind of a friendship attraction. 537 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: I would guess that that might happen more often if 538 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: you don't take some time apart because and that can 539 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: be hard as well. Like if you if you do 540 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 1: see a person all of the time and you do 541 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: have these uh, underlying feelings for them, taking time off 542 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: is also feels like forever. The heart can be so complicated, Caroline. 543 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: Like basically like if we could have just like taken 544 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: a you know, an evolutionary lesson and just said, hey, 545 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: you stay on your side, I'll stay on my side, 546 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: and we let's never talk. Let's just have awkward middle 547 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: school slow dances together. Um. But I would say, like 548 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: from all of I was thinking, I've been thinking a 549 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: lot about this, this friend zone uh idea and what 550 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: to do about it, because a lot of it is 551 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: is so wrapped up with all of this kind of 552 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: advice ee stuff. I've just said stuff like eight times 553 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: in a row. Um, and it's part of our name, 554 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: that's true. But if there was one takeaway I could 555 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: give people, it would be that if you are in 556 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: the friend zone, the best thing to do is except 557 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: that you're in the friend zone and then before you 558 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: know it, you'll be out of the friend zone. Because 559 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: really the friend zone is more state of mind than 560 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: anything else, because you know, I've been. I feel like 561 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: you and I both been on both sides of this. 562 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: And when you're putting someone in the friend zone, like 563 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: we talked about, it's not always conscious, it's just like 564 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: you kind of don't really think of the person that way. 565 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: So I don't know what to say, just yeah, it 566 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: is a frame of mind for the person who's been 567 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: friend zoned, I guess right. And on the opposite side 568 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: of that for the person who's doing the what the 569 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: side that you often end up in, Caroline, like what 570 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: kind of having to like keep um like delineate between 571 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: like where the friendship ends. Um. I would say to 572 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: that maybe, UM, if you find yourself keeping actively having 573 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: to keep someone in a friend zone for whatever reason, 574 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: you need to explore first your own motivations for why 575 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: you're keeping them there. Are you using them or are 576 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: they aggressively trying to get in that door. I mean 577 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: I've had just normal friendships where we're not spending like 578 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: every single night hanging out and you know, getting drinks 579 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: and going to movies together. But just like average round 580 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: of the mill kind of friendships where you're not yeah, 581 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: where you're not monop realizing each other's time. So then 582 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: what's the situation that's called a friendship? Well, yeah, but 583 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,439 Speaker 1: if the other person likes has those feelings though, I mean, 584 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying, Like I just run of the 585 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: mill average friendship, structured relationships where the other person like, 586 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: I don't feel like that's being manipulative. No, no no, no, no, 587 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, I don't think that's being manipulative at all. Um. 588 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: And I mean and and at that at that point, 589 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: if that other person feels like they're in the friend zone, 590 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: well hey jump off a cliff, do or die? You know. 591 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: I think I just think, like, as hard as it is, 592 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: a conversation needs to happen because I think me personally, uh, 593 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: if a friend or an acquaintance had feelings for me 594 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: and didn't know how to deal with it, was feeling 595 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: maybe frustrated or angry or rejected, just come out and say, hey, 596 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, I think I like you more than just friends. 597 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: What do you think about that? You know, something straightforward, 598 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: casual to the point point so that maybe there is 599 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: that chance that maybe the person is interested, maybe they're 600 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: not that they want to stay friends. Maybe it's time 601 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: for the two of you to find other friends. Yeah, 602 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: and I would say have a conversation. Don't do an 603 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: impulsive rom com esque, you know, quick kiss when he 604 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: or she is not expecting it. It could end up 605 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: being amazing in the best kiss of your life. I 606 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: don't think that the statistics are in your favor for 607 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: that to happen, says cynical christian Um. But the thing is, 608 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: let us all comfort ourselves if we find ourselves dealing 609 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: with a friend zone, that this is just what we 610 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: were asking for by wanting to be friends in the 611 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: first place. Because remember, like the researchers said in the 612 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: Journal of Personal and Social Relationships, cross sex friendships are 613 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: more complex than both same sex friendships and romantic partnerships. 614 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: It's almost more complicated and then dating here that folks. 615 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: So I cannot wait to hear some friend zone stories. 616 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: And if anyone is stuck currently stuck in a friend 617 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: zone and you are pulling your hair out, and you 618 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: would like any advice, Caroline, I would I would like 619 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 1: to hear from them. Let's hear it. Yeah, well, I will, um, we'll, 620 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: We'll let you know whatever we can do to to 621 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: help guide you out of that friend zone. We will 622 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: try to be the light. Maybe that'll be our next 623 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: Friday video. Yeah, yeah, that'd be That would be awesome. 624 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 1: So send us your friend zone stories. Uh, mom stuff 625 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: at discovery dot com is where you can send them, 626 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: and you can also hit us up on Facebook as well, 627 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: or if it's a very minor friend zone, probably could 628 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: tweet us at Mom's Stuff Podcast. And before we get 629 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: to some letters, got a quick message from our kindly 630 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: sponsor for this episode of Stuff I've Never Told you. 631 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: It is audible dot com, your online repository of audio 632 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: books that you can download for your listening pleasure. Choose 633 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: from hundreds of thousands of titles and listeners of stuff 634 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told you can head over to audible podcast 635 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: dot com slash stuff Mom. Yes, audible podcast dot com 636 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: slash stuff Mom for a free download and uh, we 637 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: thought we'd make a recommendation that some of our listeners 638 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: might like. You can go to audible podcast dot com 639 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: slash stuff Mom and download for free the Super Girls, Fashion, Feminism, Fantasy, 640 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: and the History of Comic book Heroines. By Mike Madrid. 641 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: So again, if you'd like to check out what Audible 642 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: has to offer, why don't you head on over right 643 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: now to Audible podcast dot com, slash stuff Mom, and 644 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: now back to our letters, and now back to our letters. 645 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: I've got one here from Anastasia on our episode on 646 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: Craize a Cat Ladies, she writes, I never thought cat 647 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: ladies existed. Whill senior year of college, the boy I 648 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: was dating lived in a house in the town great 649 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: school abandoned, awful town. Let's say it ranked as one 650 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: of the five most oppressing cities in America. When he 651 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,399 Speaker 1: gave me the grand tour, he told me to never 652 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: look out his room window because it faced the cat lady. 653 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: I told him that was mean. She probably was just 654 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: old and lonely, and he and his roommates shouldn't be mean. 655 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: His roommates would loudly joke about the cat lady, and 656 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: when they were drunk and would walk by, they would 657 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 1: be very quiet in fear of the cat lady. Indeed, 658 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: I saw she did have an enclosure with about fourteen cats. 659 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: Turns out she was a widow and it started taking 660 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: in strays to fill up her time. I would constantly 661 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: scoold my boyfriend's friends to leave the cat lady alone. 662 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: On graduation days, when the boys woke up and opened 663 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: the door, there was a cake on the porch with 664 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: congrats boys, you did great. You guys are all great kids, 665 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: and you'll do great in the world. Best wishes always, 666 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: cat lady written on it. That's amazing. Been a big 667 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: game about to say if she put all that out 668 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: a cake incredible. Needless to say, they all felt like 669 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: jerks and shipped in for a few dozen roses and 670 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: delivered them to her in person. I told them, let 671 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: this be a lesson to not make fun of a 672 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: cat lady. Maybe if they were nicer to her earlier, 673 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: she would have been a pseudo grandmother or mom to them. 674 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: Cat lady or a cake lady. Yeah, this is from 675 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: violent subject line schizo cats. She says, people actually assume 676 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: that I'm a crazy cat lady all of the time. 677 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: In truth, I have one incredibly needy cat. So the 678 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: comparison to infants made total sense to me and actually 679 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: provided me with some relief that she might be normal. However, 680 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: I was surprised that you all did not include any 681 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: information on Louie Wayne. Louis Wayne is a famous turn 682 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: of the century English artists who anthropomorphized cats to the extreme. 683 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: He began drawing cat cartoons to entertain his dying wife. 684 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: Once she died, he became a crazy catman. Lo and Behold. 685 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: He wound up with schizophrenia and was admitted into the 686 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: Bethlem Royal Hospital. Regardless, he was an illustrator and comic 687 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: artist of incredible talent and should be celebrated as such. 688 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: So here's to crazy Catman. Thank you Violet, Yeah, and 689 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: thanks to violence letter that this was a little while ago, 690 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 1: but I did posts a number of his crazy cat 691 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: pictures or paintings, I should say, on our tumbler, So 692 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: yet another reason to follow us on tumbler stuff I've 693 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: never told you dot tumbler dot com. And thanks to 694 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: everyone who has written into us at mom stuff at 695 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: discovery dot com our email address, and again you can 696 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. And 697 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,439 Speaker 1: if you'd like to get a little smarter this week, 698 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: why don't you head over to our website It's how 699 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands 700 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com