1 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to text Off. I'm Kara Price here with Oz Valascian. 2 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Hey Oz, Hey Kara. So I want to tell you 3 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: a story about young me. 4 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: Okay, I grew up in New York, and growing up, 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: we lived in this small apartment and. 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: We had this little play kitchen for me. 7 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course like it had all the fixings, 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: but I guess because it was a New York play kitchen, 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: it had a telephone in it, so I was sort 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: of playing at making dinner for my family, and my 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: parents recall this story of me going into the kitchen 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: and picking up the phone and calling for Chinese takeout, and. 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 3: That was you making dinner in the playhouse exactly exactly right. 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 3: Are your parents embarrassed or they like, She's the apple 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 3: does not fall far from the truth. 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 2: There are things that I said as a kid that 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 2: they embarrassed them. That was not one of the things, 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: because the truth is is that we mimic our parents behavior, 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: and that's what my parents did. They ordered in So 20 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: there's a reason that I've told you the story. I 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: recently talked to Ellen Cushing, who's a staff writer at 22 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: the Atlantic who primarily writes about food and food trends, 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: and she shared with me this kind of pun intended 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: het take. 25 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 4: I think that delivery and what delivery apps have done 26 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 4: to restaurants is the single biggest change in food basically 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 4: since I've been alive. 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 3: I actually have some more first hand observations about this 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 3: because my stepfather owns a restaurant in London, and I 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: watched first hand the delivery door Dash, Uber eats ification 31 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: of his restaurant. He was actually a pioneer of doing 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: high quality restaurant food delivery for an Italian restaurant in 33 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 3: London in the kind of mid two thousands, and then 34 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: these tech platforms came along and it went from like 35 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: quite a significant share of the business back down to 36 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: a very small share because the margins they take are 37 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: so much that it's basically not worth It's not really 38 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 3: worth doing unless your business is totally optimized for it. 39 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's something that if like you've ever 40 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: been to a restaurant, you obviously think about. But I 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: wanted to talk to Ellen because she demystified the sort 42 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: of how and why delivery apps have overtaken the food 43 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: industry and actually, like what really struck me about our conversation. 44 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 2: Beyond the impact of delivery apps on restaurants was the 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: impact these apps have had on. 46 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: The actual dishes that are being served to. 47 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: Us, Like delivery apps are actually influencing what we eat. 48 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 3: I'm very intrigued to hear what it is because I 49 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: love these I love and I'm slightly horrified by these 50 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 3: stories about how technology doesn't just meet our desires, that 51 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 3: actually shapes them. 52 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: So I first asked Ellen for a brief overview of 53 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: the history of delivery food and how we actually got 54 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 2: to this particular moment where every restaurant on Earth seems 55 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: to have a takeout option. 56 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 4: So let me take you back through the sands of 57 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 4: time to the nineteen nineties when and before that the 58 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 4: eighties and the seventies, when delivery existed. It was something 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 4: that mostly existed for Chinese and pizza. When I grew up, 60 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 4: I'm from California, but I grew up and we had 61 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 4: like a small stack of paper menus in a drawer 62 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 4: in our kitchen, and when we got takeout, you know, 63 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 4: you pull them out and you're kind of like, okay, 64 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 4: kids who wants like Kung pao chicken? And so you 65 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 4: would call the restaurant, they would dispatch someone who worked 66 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 4: for the restaurant and they would bring you your food. 67 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 4: What changed in kind of the early twenty tens was 68 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 4: that it started being facilitated by this third party. So 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 4: you had a bunch of companies pop up, all at 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 4: the same time. They have since largely consolidated, but there 71 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 4: were six or seven companies that were like, we can 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 4: use phones, which everyone has now to facilitate delivery. We 73 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 4: will not be using employees of restaurants. We will be 74 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 4: using contractors. This was the era when like uber was 75 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 4: the future of everything, and so they were like, we 76 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 4: can use this army of contractors to deliver people's food 77 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 4: and it will theoretically be more efficient because you can 78 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 4: pick up from a bunch of different restaurants that are 79 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,559 Speaker 4: on the platform and deliver to a bunch of different people, 80 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 4: and you have this like wonderful economies of scale thing. 81 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 4: So that is the big change. 82 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: It is very sad to me that kids will not. 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: Grow up with the file folder full of menus that 84 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: I grew up with. That was such a You just 85 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 2: brought me back so much just thinking about that thick 86 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 2: stack of menus that you'd have to read That was 87 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: like early reading comprehension for me totally. 88 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 4: And like it was such as a kid who loved food, 89 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 4: it was such a source of fascination. Wow, there's all 90 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 4: this food that I don't have. It's not food my 91 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 4: parents are cooking. You know, it kind of rocked. 92 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: It's also very funny to think, like, you know how 93 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: gen Z is bringing back a lot of cassettes and 94 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 2: even like mail order stuff. Like the one thing that 95 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: I don't think is coming back is like delivery menus. 96 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 4: Probably not. I mean I think as a society we're 97 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 4: kind of post paper. Do what you think? Like, like 98 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 4: I feel like we don't even get right right, You 99 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 4: got a q comes from trees. 100 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, the QR code is not I'll never get on 101 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 2: board with the qure kid, but whatever. 102 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: That's taking us off track. 103 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: So in the piece, you start by talking about the 104 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 2: moment that delivery apps were conceived by a college student 105 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: named Colin Wallace. So can you talk a little bit 106 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: about Colin and where his idea came from? 107 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I should say Colin did not think of 108 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 4: delivery apps. He just developed a piece of technology that 109 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 4: help delivery apps talk to point of sale systems. The 110 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 4: details of that are like pretty technical, but basically, this 111 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,799 Speaker 4: was a guy who was in engineering school at Georgia 112 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 4: Tech and he really wanted a sandwich. He had these 113 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 4: long lectures. He also, you know, he was going to 114 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 4: football games and he kept feeling like, what if I 115 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 4: could just get the food that I wanted delivered to 116 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 4: my seat? Because you have to go, you have to 117 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 4: stand in line, you're missing the game, et cetera. And 118 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 4: so it was pretty obvious. You know, he's an engineering student. 119 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 4: This is twenty eleven. Everyone has an iPhone basically, and 120 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 4: so he was like, I feel like there's a better 121 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 4: way to do this, and so he developed this system 122 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 4: that basically replaced a lot of the delivery infrastructure was 123 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 4: done by facts at this point, which is like a 124 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 4: sort of crazy technology to be using in twenty eleven. 125 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 4: So he figured out how to make it work on 126 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 4: the phone and the rest was history. And you know, 127 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 4: the company he started got acquired by grub hub and 128 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 4: he became head of innovation. 129 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: So I guess the question that I have is, like. 130 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: The popularity of these apps takes off in the twenty tens, 131 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: like for those of us who kind of have always 132 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: adapted to the way that phones have changed things, which 133 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: is my generation. You know, all of a sudden, grub Hub, 134 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: door Dash, Seamless, you know, all these apps sort of explode. 135 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: I'm using them all the time to do just about anything. 136 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: I remember one time I broke my ankle and I 137 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: ordered a wee charger from GameStop on uber on uber each. 138 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: Oh, so, like there's no question. 139 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: Now we go from you know, like very specific foods 140 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: being kind of the ubiquitous takeout food to literally anything 141 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: you can possibly imagine being something that you can get delivered. 142 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: I mean, other than you know, Colin's invention. What is 143 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: responsible for this pivot to like everything being on demand? 144 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 4: The answer, Kera is money. That is that's what's important here. 145 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 4: So this is again early twenty tens. This is a moment. 146 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 4: I was living in San Francisco in the time. There 147 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 4: was a lot of money, There was a lot of 148 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 4: venture capital, and you know, VC is kind of winner 149 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 4: takes all. I would say, it is a industry that 150 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 4: is very much ruled by fomo. And there was this 151 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 4: idea at the time that like, whoever wins the delivery 152 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 4: wars will get access to a market of everyone who 153 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 4: eats food, Right, So all of these different companies wanted 154 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 4: to win, and all of these people that were funding 155 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 4: these companies were just pouring money into it. And you know, 156 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 4: this was also the era of the millennial lifestyle subsidy 157 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 4: zerp Like, you know, money was very cheap, and so 158 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 4: Silicon Valley was just like pumping money into all of 159 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 4: these companies and basically subsidizing the cost of delivery. So 160 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 4: what you have happening is you'd open Uber Eats or whatever, 161 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 4: and you'd get these like ads basically that are like 162 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 4: fifty percent off your first order, or like take twenty 163 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 4: dollars off when you order three times in a month 164 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 4: or something, and so they're like really incentivizing people to 165 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 4: order delivery. They're basically you know, delivery costs money because 166 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: you are adding labor and computer space and all kinds 167 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 4: of infrastructure to a relationship. Right, You're adding another party 168 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 4: to the relationship between the party who eats exactly. And 169 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 4: so what was happening was was like Sandhill Road was 170 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 4: like eating the extra cost. And so you have this 171 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 4: brief period in the early twenty tens. Delivery is ubiquitous, 172 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 4: it's on your phone, and it's cheap. Like sometimes it's 173 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 4: even cheaper than like cooking for yourself or eating in 174 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 4: a restaurant. And so they basically, in a very short 175 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 4: amount of time, like invented a market that did not 176 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 4: previously exist, and then it invented the expectation that it 177 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 4: would be cheap. And that's very powerful. That's a very 178 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 4: good way to get people kind of like addicted to something. Right, 179 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 4: do you remember this era, like when delivery was so cheap. 180 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 4: I was going to say it was the promo code era. 181 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 4: It was crazy, like every time you ordered something you 182 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 4: could get fifty percent off. 183 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: Right, they were like please, we're. 184 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 5: Begging you, well, basically pay you literally, and it was 185 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 5: because they wanted you to be loyal to grub Hub 186 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 5: or Postmates or whatever the app was, and they wanted 187 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 5: to lock you in. 188 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were basically eating for free at that point, 189 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 2: I remember this, And we were. 190 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 4: Ubering for free, and we were getting access to all 191 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 4: of these like apps for very little money. It kind 192 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 4: of rocked. 193 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: After the break White restaurants were forever changed by the pandemic. 194 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: Stay with us, So the pandemic happens and then all 195 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: of a sudden, delivery is the only way that restaurants 196 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: make money, right, and then the pandemic ends and people 197 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: don't want to change their behavior. And so my question 198 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: for you is, like, what is the difference between promo 199 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 2: code era to like delivery feels expensive again, but also 200 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: like restaurants are empty, So what happens? 201 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, as you say said, like the pandemic 202 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 4: was this inflection point in that like every restaurant that 203 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 4: had been kind of holding out on delivery for various 204 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 4: reasons now reach this point where they were like, oh, 205 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 4: we have to do this or bebo clothes. I remember, 206 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 4: you know, fancy restaurants, like nice restaurants were suddenly doing delivery. 207 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 4: Places that had been saying, you know, our food doesn't 208 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 4: travel well, or we think the economics don't make sense, 209 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 4: or we have enough customers already we don't need delivery. 210 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 4: We're now like, oh, we need delivery. And this was 211 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 4: also a moment when, like you know, ordering delivery sort 212 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 4: of became virtuous. It became like a victory garden, like 213 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 4: if you want to keep a restaurant in business, you 214 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 4: should order delivery from them. 215 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: Yes, I remember that was right, because I mean, delivery 216 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: workers were essential workers at the time, and it was. 217 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 2: It was totally. It was like a mark of supporting 218 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: the economy. 219 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly. It was like we're all going to get 220 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 4: through this together. Like order a burrito, your party has 221 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 4: change you wish to see in the world. 222 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly exactly. 223 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 4: But in answer to your question about like how it 224 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 4: seems like delivery has gotten more expensive, it has. Part 225 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 4: of that is that some municipalities have added taxes onto 226 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 4: delivery to account for the fact that drivers need pay 227 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: and delivery is kind of like one big externality that 228 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 4: affects cities a lot, and so various places have added surcharges. 229 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,359 Speaker 4: But the real difference is that Silicon Valley stopped subsidizing 230 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 4: it because these companies had to make money at some point, 231 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 4: and so they pulled back the subsidies slowly. And so 232 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 4: now when you buy delivery, you're paying the true cost. 233 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 4: You are paying the cost of the food, the cost 234 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 4: of the labor, the cost of the overhead, the cost 235 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 4: for grub hub or whatever to make its cut. There's 236 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 4: a lot of people who need to get paid now, 237 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 4: and so you, the customer are paying that. 238 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: So can you talk a little bit more about the 239 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: economics of these apps like, how how does it work? 240 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, if you are a restaurant and you sign up 241 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 4: for a delivery service, they are basically only three Now 242 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 4: three companies control something like ninety eight percent of the 243 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 4: delivery market in the US. It's basically DoorDash, Uber and 244 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 4: grub Hub is much smaller than the other two. But 245 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 4: you sign up for one of these companies, there's different tiers, 246 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 4: but basically you are paying them for listing you on 247 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 4: their app. You're paying them for facilitating the delivery, You're 248 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 4: paying them for you know, placement within the app. If 249 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 4: you open a delivery app, now you'll notice maybe that 250 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 4: there's a lot of kind of like sponsored listings, or 251 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 4: some random place will show up as like the best 252 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 4: Indian food in all of New York City and you're like, 253 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 4: this place has like two stars, Like how did this happen? 254 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 4: And that's because they have paid extra. The rest of 255 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 4: it us paid exactly, you know, And this is not 256 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 4: unique to delivery apps at all. Like this is true 257 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 4: on Yea and Google Maps, and it's true kind of 258 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 4: everywhere on the internet. But that costs money. So restaurants 259 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 4: are basically just turning a cut over to fees that 260 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 4: are paid to the delivery apps. 261 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: And you spoke to delivery drivers in this piece like 262 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: this is not a lucrative job. 263 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 4: It can be, you know, you will talk to drivers 264 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 4: who say, someone tipped me one hundred dollars on a 265 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 4: ten dollars order of wings. It's like any service job 266 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 4: where it can be kind of random. But no, they 267 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 4: are not paid by the hour. They're paid by the delivery. 268 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 4: That of course incentivizes delivery drivers to move quickly, not safely, 269 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 4: which can be a problem in cities. They are often 270 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 4: driving really long distances. You know, I talked to a 271 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: delivery driver who told me that he delivered like a 272 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 4: cup of ice cream, like you know, like a single, 273 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 4: not even like that. 274 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: I mean, some of the things that I've ordered, I can't. 275 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: I ordered a sleep like I ordered like two crispy 276 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: cream doughnuts the other way. 277 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just salthy, And how should you pay 278 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: for them? I don't want to. And that's when you 279 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: close your eyes. 280 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 4: That's between you and your God. 281 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: That's right, yes, and the God of my understanding for 282 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: sure exactly. 283 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 4: You know, he drove like something like thirty miles to 284 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 4: deliver this. He lives in a really rural area in 285 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 4: South Carolina, and he's making like three dollars for forty 286 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 4: minutes of work before gas and you know, maintenance and stuff, 287 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 4: and the person who's paying like fifteen dollars. So no, 288 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 4: it's not really a lucrative job. I think delivery companies 289 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 4: would say these people are independent contractors. They choose how 290 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 4: much they work, they set their own hours. It's a 291 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 4: great job for college students or people who need to 292 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 4: make a little bit of money on the side, but 293 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 4: nobody is acting like this is the first step on 294 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 4: a career ladder that will support you and your family 295 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 4: for the rest of your life. 296 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 2: Right, and yet it's very accessible and something that people, 297 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 2: I mean, especially in cities like New York, it feels 298 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: like everybody I see on a bicycle, everybody that I 299 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: see in a car is somebody who's picking up something 300 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 2: from a restaurant to take to somebody's house. Yes, and 301 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: the lines outside of restaurants are and that's that was 302 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: one of the things that really stuck out to me 303 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 2: about your article is like, is this idea of like 304 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 2: not so much how delivery has transformed the way we 305 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: get food, but it's also transformed what idea of a 306 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: restaurant is and like why does the restaurant exist? So 307 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: from your point of view, like in twenty twenty five, 308 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 2: like what is the purpose of a restaurant and has 309 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: that changed on account of the explosion of delivery apps. 310 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 4: That's the core of this and part of the reason 311 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 4: I wrote this story to begin with. I just kept 312 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 4: having this experience after Lockdown ended of going into restaurants 313 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 4: in New York City and they would be like two 314 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 4: thirds empty on a Friday night and there would be 315 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 4: like fifteen delivery guys in the front of the store 316 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 4: picking up food, and it would it didn't seem that 317 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 4: good for them or for the people working at the restaurant, 318 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 4: and it was sort of a bad experience for me 319 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 4: as the diner. So yeah, I mean, I think that 320 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 4: it often feels to me like a lot of restaurants 321 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 4: are kind of like glorified vending machines. 322 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: Now, like that's what it feels like. 323 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 4: Delivery has changed the way people who run restaurants run restaurants, 324 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 4: and it means when you build a restaurant, you are 325 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 4: probably having way fewer tables and way more space for 326 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 4: delivery drivers to congregate. You're having shelving for the delivery orders. 327 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 4: Some of them have separate entrances for delivery versus din 328 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 4: in because you know, you're essentially kind of like cramming 329 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 4: two experiences into one where you're like in a restaurant 330 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 4: and a delivery driver's like backpack. It's like hitting you 331 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 4: on the head and you're like, it's just good. And 332 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 4: then in terms of the food, you know, I talk 333 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 4: to restaurant tours who are like, I'm putting more brazes 334 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 4: on my venu, I'm doing fewer like deep fried things 335 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 4: because they just don't travel well. This is kind of 336 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 4: the reason that everything's like a bowl. Now, if you've 337 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 4: noticed that bowls travel really well, they're kind of like 338 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 4: saucy and gloppy, and they're not meant to be like crunchy. 339 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 4: You know, anything that's crunchy is not going to travel well. 340 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 2: The nineteen fifties was not a time for the US 341 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: EBOL or the Ploi. 342 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 4: Certainly not no, no, no no. But twenty twenty five, Oh. 343 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: Baby, that's really interesting. 344 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 2: Like that's basically what's in is like the thing that 345 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: is portable. 346 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 4: Maybe that's the best argument against delivery is that it 347 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 4: makes the food taste bad. 348 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: It's crazy. 349 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I guess my question is is, like, 350 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 2: if we keep going down this path and restaurants become 351 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: less and less of an in person experience, like what 352 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,239 Speaker 2: happens to the industry. And obviously you did a lot 353 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 2: of reporting on this, it does seem a little bit 354 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 2: dire for restaurants, and like, is there anything that looks 355 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: like course correction post pandemic? 356 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 4: I mean, really, where I see this going is I 357 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 4: think it'll be like movie theaters, where like, obviously people 358 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 4: are not gonna stop eating, people are not gonna stop 359 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 4: like consuming, right, but like you're gonna see restaurants close. 360 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 4: You're kind of always gonna be worried that your favorite 361 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 4: one is going to close. They'll become rarer and rarer. 362 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 4: It'll be this special thing that you do sometimes if 363 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 4: you are an enthusiast. And that really freaks me out 364 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 4: because I love restaurants. 365 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good analogy. I didn't think about 366 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: it that way. But the movie theater sort of as restaurant. 367 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: It's the ease factor that's sort of cannibalizing the thing. 368 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: And if you don't care about the experience to begin with, 369 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 2: is it something that you're going to try to preserve. 370 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 4: You know. I got a lot of email after this story, 371 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,479 Speaker 4: and a fair amount of it was from people saying like, 372 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 4: I don't like restaurants. I don't like having to tip, 373 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 4: I don't like sharing space with other people. I don't 374 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 4: like waiting for my food, like basically a good riddance. 375 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 4: And I was kind of surprised by that, just because 376 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 4: if I have not already like tipped my hand and 377 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 4: en augh, like I love restaurants. I love going to restaurants. 378 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, I do think some people truly 379 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: don't care. I think with movie theaters it's going to 380 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 4: be one of these things that we kind of like 381 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 4: miss when it's gone. But yeah, I think some people 382 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 4: just don't like restaurants. Don't care, don't care if they 383 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 4: go away, don't care if they change so much as 384 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 4: to be unrecognizable. 385 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: It is such a strange phenomenon because on one end, 386 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: it is so miraculous that we live in an age 387 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: where you can have everything on demand, and then it's 388 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 2: also like pretty spectacular how that thing that facilitates such 389 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: an ease of sort of on demand life is the 390 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: thing that might cannibalize the thing we're actually benefiting from. Again, 391 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: not to sound overly romantic about it or bleeding heart, 392 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 2: but I think we forget the cost of the thing 393 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: when we're getting what we want. 394 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 4: Yes, and look, there's a whole apparatus that is designed 395 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 4: to make you forget about the cost of the thing. 396 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 4: The thing about a frictionless service is that it's designed 397 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 4: to alide all of the effort that goes in Tech 398 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 4: companies are really good at this, Like their whole thing 399 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 4: is eliminating friction. You know. Amazon is kind of the 400 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 4: same way, like next day delivery. If you actually think 401 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 4: about all of the like arms and legs and cars 402 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 4: and trucks and planes and paper and plastic and warehouses 403 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 4: that were required to get your box of paper clips 404 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 4: to your house within twelve hours, it's astonishing. But they 405 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 4: don't want you to think about that. 406 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's success sort of rides on how little you 407 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: think about it in fact. Yeah, well, Ellen, thank you 408 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: so much for joining me today to talk about the 409 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: personal is portable. 410 00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 4: Thank you. This was really fun. 411 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: That's it for this week for tech stuff. 412 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 3: I'm care Price and I'm oz Vlasan. This episode was 413 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 3: produced by Eliza Dennis, and Melissa Slaughter. It was executive 414 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 3: produced by me Kara Price, Julian Nutter, and Kate Osborne 415 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 3: for Kaleidoscope and Katrian Norvel for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley 416 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 3: mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. 417 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: Join us on Friday for the Week in Tech, where 418 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 2: we'll run through the headlines you need to follow. 419 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: And please rate and review the show, and reach out 420 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 3: to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. 421 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 2: We want to hear from you.