1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, and performers, 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: to hear their stories, what inspires their creations, what decisions 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Andy Warhole's 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: images of campbell soup cans and billow boxes upset the 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: distinction between advertising and art. His Prince of Maryland and 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: Eliza raised questions about the relationship between celebrity, culture, commerce 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: and artistic expression. Warhole was an openly gay man before 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: stone Wall, and his New York studio was a place 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: where artists, drug addicts, and celebrities came to party, crash, 11 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: and play a role. In one of Warhole's experimental, often 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: sexually explicit films, in nineteen sixty eight, Warhole was shot 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: by Valerie Salonis, who had appeared in two of his films. 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: After the Shoe and until his death in nineteen eighty seven, 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: Warhole kept to a tight circle of friends and family 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: and relied heavily on Vincent Fremont, his exclusive sales agent, 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: and Fred Hughes, his business manager. My guest today is 18 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: Eric Scheiner, director of the Andy Warhol Museum, when Shiner 19 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: began his work at the museum twenty years ago, he 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: had a much different job interned at the Warhol Museum 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: the year that we opened in nine, as an intern 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: in the curatorial department twenty years ago. That was you 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: had a contact with exactly connection with That's where I started, 24 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: and then I jumped off to Asia and always did 25 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: Asian art through the lens of Warhol and pop art. 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: And then after working many years here in New York 27 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: in that field specifically, I got a call out of 28 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: the blue to go be the curator at the Warhol 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: Museum back home in Pittsburgh. You would interned when the 30 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: museum first opened, And I want to go to that 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: point because I'm interested in Warhol died what year in seven, 32 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: so we died seven years earlier. He had been shot 33 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: in sixty eight, ten years RFK. That's right, what transpires 34 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: after Warhol's death? Was there a planned when Warhol was 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: alive to build this institution or did it all come 36 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: to fruition after he was gone. There was no decided plan. 37 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: It had been a conversation point and certainly people had 38 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: talked to Andy about the idea of one day having 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: a museum, which he liked that idea, but there was 40 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: nothing definitive about it whatsoever. Andy's will was incredibly basic, 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: and it said that he wanted his estate to support 42 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: art and artists, and that was all that had said. 43 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: And so who with a catalyst behind building the museum? 44 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: And it must have Those things cost a lot of dough. 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: There are a lot of urban legends that say that 46 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: several New York museums were approached a partner to have 47 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: the Andy Warhol Museum based here in New York City. 48 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: But it's very important to remember that in the late 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, Warhol's reputation was about as low as it 50 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: could possibly because the result of as the result of 51 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: most of his exhibitions throughout the nineteen eighties receiving horrid 52 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: reviews in the art press. So a lot of institutions 53 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: here really questioned the sustainability of Andy Warhol as an 54 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: artist and really asked if he would even deserve his 55 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: own museum. Do you think that Warhole in that period 56 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: was doing something different than Warhol had done or was 57 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: he just being And he was an innovator in all things, 58 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: and what's constantly trying new ways of making art through 59 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: new mediums, through new subject matter, new color palettes. He 60 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: was always trying to stay ahead of the curve, and 61 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: that often affected him negatively, and that sometimes the work 62 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: that he was doing was too fresh, it was too current. 63 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: It was two of the moment. For example, for example 64 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: the dollar sign paintings and thinking about what that year 65 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: paintings in that two dollar bills was his very first exactly. 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: So that's in early nineteen sixties work nineteen sixty two. 67 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: So he was being dismissed for that. He was and um, 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people said that it was 69 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: too tacky to paint money. It was too ghosh. And 70 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: when we look at those paintings today, what's more indicative 71 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: of the early nineteen eighties in New York than the 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: almighty dollar? He hit it square on the head. But 73 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: Andy loved money. I mean that was one of his 74 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: driving forces, and he drew and painted money really throughout 75 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: his entire career. We have to say he loved money, 76 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: not just his art, but loved money in terms of 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: his own wealth. Oh absolutely, But he became that way. 78 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: He did not monetize well in the sixties, and he 79 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: stopped painting. What year when did he stop painting well 80 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: and he went into his filmmaking period in nineteen sixty 81 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: four is when he really shifts focus to the film making. 82 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: Um he starts experimenting in nineteen sixty three, in sixty 83 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: four declares that he's going to be a filmmaker, and 84 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: yet never stops fully painting or fully making. He was 85 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: always making something, but he definitely put the onus of 86 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: his focus on film in nineteen sixty four, and then 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: he comes back to painting, and not that he really 88 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: ever left, but he shifts back again, concentrating more on 89 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: painting when early nineteen seventies is when he really goes 90 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: back to it. The shooting has a lot to do 91 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: with that as well, when he starts to rethink his 92 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: life in that he does quite literally die as a 93 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: result of the shooting. He's miraculously brought back to life 94 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: after hours and hours of change after the shooting. Because 95 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: I think to myself, is that when he decided he 96 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: wanted to I don't say this in the vulgar sense. 97 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: Warhole really shifts the whole Warhole incorporated into fifth gear. 98 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: After he's fully recovered from the shooting, he thought we 99 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: only lived so long right. It was a huge wake 100 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: up call, and he really did start to think about 101 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: business in a much more serious way, mortality and mortality. 102 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: He'd certainly been somewhat lackadaisical and business records and feelings 103 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: prior to the shooting, but after that he brings on 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: Fred and Vincent to help run the business. Is they 105 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: know what they're doing, and they really pull a lot 106 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: of order into his life. And I think it's also 107 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: important to think that post shooting, he becomes much more 108 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: insular and much more protected. So we all know about 109 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: the parties at the factory that ends at that period, 110 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: it ends, and everybody we shed us, he sheds a skin. 111 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: He does. He still gives him to shed a skin 112 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: social in ways, but he doesn't allow. Many people in 113 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: in security and safety have a lot to do with that. 114 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: When I think of Warhol, he seemed um not on 115 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: the surface, but underneath, very jaded and very cynical, and 116 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: very playful and very boyish and very guileless. At the 117 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: same time. It was tremendous yin and Yang and him. 118 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: Is that an accurate portray? Accurate? You hit it directly 119 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: on the head. And when he trust, his trust was 120 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: probably very difficult to get wheel trust. He trusted his family, 121 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: stayed in regular contact with his brothers back in Pittsburgh 122 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: with weekly telephone calls. They were the rock Ums. Two brothers. 123 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: What did they do? Paul and John. Paul was in 124 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: the scrap metal recycling business, and Paul just died about 125 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: a year and a half ago at the age of 126 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: ninety one. Um the first to come in, the first 127 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: to go worve. Now, how old would he be? Um? 128 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: Andy would be, Let's see eighty seven this August. Wouldn't 129 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: it be great to have an eighty seven year old 130 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: Warhol around? It would be Could you imagine seven year 131 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: old Warhol? Oh? He loved so Um and the other 132 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: brother And the other brother was John, and John was 133 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: a businessman and a salesman and was very much Andy's confident. 134 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: In so many ways, was name itself changing? Because he's 135 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: photographing fame? Did fame have to become different? It's such 136 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: an interesting thing to think about because in so many 137 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 1: ways Warhol becomes famous because of his depiction of fame. 138 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: So he is really linking himself to the very concept 139 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: of fame and to the celebrities that drive the fame machine. 140 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: Certainly when you think about what fame meant across America 141 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen fifties early nineteen sixties, it's a 142 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: very different universe. It's a much more private world. Celebrities 143 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: are certainly famous for their acting, for their persons. They're singing, 144 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: but a talent, and that the world of press that 145 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: puts that out as a completely different media universe, the 146 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: media completely but changing them and certainly changing. But when 147 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: you think about it, it relies so much on press 148 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: and print, visual in visual images in the newspaper or 149 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: are huge, huge Life Magazine. Is the internet be all? 150 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: No Internet? And Warhol realizes that not only do people 151 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: like Maryland and Liz become famous through that media angle, 152 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: but so do artists. And he's looking very carefully, and 153 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: where is the art in fame? Well, he asked himself, 154 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: I think, because where is the art here? And he 155 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: knows that Jackson Pollock and a few other abstract expressionist 156 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: painters who have been um featured in Life Magazine and 157 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: other mainstream media sources our household names and famous, and 158 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: that's what he wants more than anything, not only to 159 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: be respected as an artist, to be known as an artist, 160 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: which is really one of the major driving forces in 161 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: his life. I think that, um, you know, television obviously 162 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: is coming into its own in the early sixties, TV 163 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: engaging with someone's imagery. It's not just a void coming 164 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: out of the radio. And to me, Warhol represents someone 165 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: who starts that process in modern life of taking famous 166 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: people and saying they're here to be consumed by you 167 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: like a product exactly. And that's why he does what 168 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: he does, because he realizes that celebrities are a consumer 169 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: product product just like buying the Campbell soup can just 170 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: like buying brill like air and water that we need 171 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: to survive in ways and yet um, we can certainly 172 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: live without them, but we need to have them in 173 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: our lives, and we buy them because you do buy 174 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: those gossip braggs, you buy into something. Well, well, obviously 175 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: we've we've evolved to that. We take the television and 176 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: pair it with what Warhol is doing. Certain people who 177 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: shall remain name less, they have a debt of gratitude 178 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: they owe to Warhole, absolutely, And when you think about 179 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: his front and center depiction of fame and consumer products, 180 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: there's also another side of the coin that has to 181 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: be factored in, which also plays directly into this. And 182 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: it's about death and disaster. It's about his car crashes, 183 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: it's about his suicides, it's about mortality. And Andy was 184 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: very keen and very aware of the fact that when 185 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: we buy gossip Braggs, when we watch television, the two 186 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: poles tend to be glamor, wealth and fame on one side, 187 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: death disaster on the other. And we can't where none 188 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: of us can go and where all of us will go. 189 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: That's exactly right characterized from me in terms of his 190 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: friendships and how he behaved. UM. More specifically, if you can, 191 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: if you're willing to, how is life changed after the shooting? 192 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: He immediately the leaves. First off, the Valerie Salonis is 193 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: going to come back and finish the job. And why 194 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: was she only given three years in prison? Why it's incredible. 195 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 1: I just read a book about her biography and it's 196 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: really really insightful. Um. Valerie gave Andy's script and it 197 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: was a play slash potential film that she had written 198 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: called Up Your Ass, and she gave it to Andy 199 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: hoping that he would produce it either as a stage 200 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: play or as a film. Now for people that don't 201 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: know that she they knew each other, They didn't know 202 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: each other. Um not she. Yes, she was one of 203 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: the factory changing out chicks. She appeared in one of 204 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: Andy's films in a very She was around background role, Yes, 205 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: she was around, but a player b maybe player. And 206 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: Valerie had a lot of really deep, dark, horrible things 207 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: that had happened to in her life and it created 208 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: a lot of psychosis, and she was not stable, had 209 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 1: any sense, and yet she was incredibly smart. And it 210 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: was a feminist who wanted to eradicate men from the world. 211 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: That's what the play was about. She started a one 212 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: woman um group called um Scum, the Society for Cutting 213 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: Out Men, and wanted to eratic men from the earth. 214 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: I think that Andy, being a man, probably didn't like 215 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: that idea so much, and when he read the script 216 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: he just thought it was not worth a conversation. Can 217 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: you think of anything that Warhole exhibited towards women? What 218 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: did Warhole do do you think that might have provoked her? 219 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: If anything? Well, entirely very simply said Valerie, I'm not 220 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: doing this. I don't like it. It's not any good. 221 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: And then he lost the script and didn't return it 222 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: to her. She thought he was going to steal it 223 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: from her take the credit, and she went to get 224 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: it that day and when he couldn't produce it, boom. 225 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: Did she always go on her rounds collecting her scripts 226 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: with a gun on her No, absolutely not. She purchased 227 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: the gun just either the day or two told me, 228 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: in case somebody comes to pick up any scripts for 229 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: me at my apartment building, I want to be should 230 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: watch out a metal detector? Yeah, but no, she had 231 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 1: it out for him. And she really thought that Warhol 232 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: was controlling her life. She was psychotic enough that she um. No. 233 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: Valerie died um in the late nineteen eighties and she 234 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: only got three years. Did anybody, to anyone's satisfaction, find 235 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: out why? Um? It was, you know, a case of 236 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: her psychiatric status because she was deemed um insane and 237 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: went to a mental mental facility. She didn't go to prison, 238 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: She went to a mental facility and somehow and the 239 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: standards are a little more lax, that much more lax. 240 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: And because he didn't die, um, she didn't have a 241 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: murder up and was there ever ever even the most 242 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: remote intersection of them. Again, well, she did reach out, Um, 243 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: she would call the factory occasionally after she was instructed 244 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: not to do exactly, and Fred and Bridgid and anyone 245 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: who would answer the phone would just have to say, 246 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: never call here again, Valerie, but periodically she would. She 247 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: eventually made her way to San Francisco and died there, 248 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: penniless and addicted. So it's a very sad life that 249 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: she led. This is the I Shot Andy Warhole suite 250 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: written by John Klee. For the movie I Shot Andy Warhol, 251 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: Valerie Selonis was played by Lily Taylor. Take a listen 252 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: to the Here's the Thing Archives, where I spoke with 253 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: artists Eric Fischel about his own dreams regarding art and commerce. 254 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: I used to have this fantasy that when my muse 255 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: left me, I would still be able to make product 256 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: right that I that that I wouldn't be making art anymore, 257 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: but I'd be making things that look like art, and 258 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: that that was okay. Take a listen and Here's the 259 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: Thing dot Org. My guest today is Eric Shiner, director 260 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: of the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh. Warhol's work has 261 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: inspired countless artists and filmmakers. One of Warhol's own influences 262 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: was Marcel du Champs, best known for his porcelain urinal 263 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: titled Fountain. Du Champ was by far and away his 264 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: favorite artists, favorite Warhol. Oh, absolutely yeah, they met, they 265 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: became friends in the nineteen sixties. Du Schamp is in 266 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: several Warhol screen tests, for example, and they had a 267 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: very interesting back and forth about the ready made, about 268 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: taking something literally off the grocery store shelf and turning 269 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: it into art. And most concepts of Warhol's find their 270 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: foundation in Adu Shampi, an aesthetic. People mentioned either that 271 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: Warhol painted the soup cans and the different flavors was 272 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: one side of the corner of the other, either because 273 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: his mother made in the soup all the time and 274 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: he liked the soup, or his mother made him sup 275 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: all the time and he hated the soup, which was 276 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: he loved the soupe absolutely and she really didn't serve 277 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: it to him every day. And we have at the 278 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: museum in our collection what if one wanted it to be, 279 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: could be the Rosetta stone of Warhol. And that is 280 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: a drawing that Julia, his mother made in ninety three 281 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: of two Campbell's soup cans and two cats, and in 282 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: her amazing cyrillic script. It says Campbell's soup very good gut. 283 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: So she beats him to the punch by nine years 284 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: in this drawing and depicting Campbell's soup. And we know 285 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,239 Speaker 1: that Andy knew about this drawing because he kept it. 286 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: So Andy's paintings are not just of campbell soup, They're 287 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: paintings of his mother's rendering of He goes even more 288 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: than everything goes back to Andy's mother. She was an artist. 289 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: They were incredibly close. She was an artist. She was 290 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: an artist drawings of cats and angels. We have many 291 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: up on display at the museum. She was incredibly talented. 292 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: And she also, and this is really formative, Frandy makes 293 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: sculptures um in the form of little pots of flowers, 294 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: and she makes them out of tin cans and they 295 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: just happen to be Campbell soup cans. So she literally 296 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: cuts the cans to make metal flowers and makes these arrangements, 297 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: and then she goes door to door and the rich 298 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: neighborhoods of Pittsburgh, Squirrel Hill, Shady Side, and sells these 299 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: things door to door with the boys hiding in the 300 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: bushes watching her, so that she can make a little 301 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: bit of extra money to make ends meet, to help 302 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: the family. So not only does Warhol have this artistic 303 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: um training from his mother, he also has a very 304 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: important economic training in that he sees that one can 305 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: make money from art. And certainly when he arrives here 306 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: in New York and starts making cold calls immediately, it's 307 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: exactly what he saw his mother doing when he was 308 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: a kid. So incredibly important relationship. And Julia was so 309 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: convinced that her little baby boy could not take care 310 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: of himself here in the big city. About eighteen months 311 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: after Andy moves here, Um he arrives nineteen nine. In 312 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: early nineteen fifty one, Julia makes the move and moves 313 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: here to New York and moves in with Andy on 314 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: his apartment to his apartment on Lexington and lived there 315 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: for how long until the end of her life, And 316 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: it was early nineteen seventies, so she was ill. She 317 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: went back to shear through his shooting. She did. She 318 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: rushed to the hospital to be with him and take 319 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: care of him, and sadly, she fell ill when she 320 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: was visiting relatives back in Pittsburgh and Um died about 321 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: six months after that. But they were incredibly close and collaborators. 322 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: So throughout the entire nineteen fifties. If you see any 323 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: script on any Warhol drawing, any commercial work, whether it 324 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: be a title or um, some sort of um nomenclature 325 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: referring to the subject or Warhol signature, it's all Julia's hand. 326 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: Warhol was the most prolific and produced the most of 327 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: his paintings and Prince and so forth at during what 328 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: period nineteen sixty to nineteen eight seven is the true 329 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: period of his painting, But he does experiment in the 330 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, and of course it does have fits and 331 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: starts in between. Would you say that that after the 332 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: shooting he was even more prolific. Absolutely, So that's that's 333 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: the most prolific periods period the mid seventies through the 334 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: end of his life. When you have a museum that 335 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: is dedicated to one person's work, I'm assuming people are 336 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: giving you things to exhibit all the time. And and 337 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: how much of it do you own? How much of 338 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: war whole stuff do you guys have? We have the 339 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: biggest collection of Warhol in the world. First off, and 340 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: as everything for the most part came directly from Andy's studios, 341 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: he had been holding things back from every period, every series. 342 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: Why he was doing that, we have to question whether 343 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: it was to hold it back so that one day 344 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: it would be more valuable so that he could sell 345 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: it for a lot more than when he made it 346 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,239 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, for example, or if he was 347 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: thinking about their one day being a museum. And there 348 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: are arguments on both sides of that equation, but UM 349 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: I would say that we're in the percent range in 350 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: terms of what we have. We're really only missing about 351 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: ten prime examples of specific paintings from specific series and 352 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: those vactms that we have access to and can borrow 353 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: from UM the owners. But people are normally accommodating for 354 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: the most part. Yes, support the mission absolutely, and those 355 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: are the things that one day we hope those collectors 356 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: will think about donating one day to the museum so 357 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: that we have a full survey of his work. How 358 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: would Warhole describe to people his filmmaking career, which to 359 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: me is Warholes films. I still have a trouble getting 360 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: my hands around that in my head around that that 361 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: it's not kitch and that and that and to use 362 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: that word. Do you have an archive of his films 363 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: obviously screens tis that we have all of them, We 364 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: actually own you all of the films are Oh, there 365 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: are literally a million feet of film, if not more. 366 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: And how many were actually cut into actually actually titled, 367 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: probably about twelve dozen if you look at a film 368 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,239 Speaker 1: in as much as there's some sort of an arc 369 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: or a storyline, but not always. And then the screen tests, 370 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: of which they are well north of five hundred of 371 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: his filmmaking portraits of people that he knew, beautiful people, 372 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: in complete strangers, and everything in between. So Warhol's film 373 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: is a complete treasure trove that is very untapped. Uh. 374 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: I mean many people in the art world have, um, 375 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to say reluctantly, but they've they've come 376 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: to an appreciation of warholes places in a contemporary art. 377 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: Are there people in the film world who have done 378 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: the same thing? Absolutely? And Andy is viewed as one 379 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: of the earliest and most important avant guard filmmakers here 380 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: in New York, along with Jonas and with Jack Smith. 381 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: So Jonas Mekas, Jack Smith, Andy Warhol always viewed as 382 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: the top three. They're at the very beginning. What's the 383 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: film you think that is that represents his work as 384 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: a filmmaker best. That's the one. What what do people 385 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: who come to the museum, what how do they respond? 386 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: What film do they respond to most? I think that 387 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: Empire is the one that really gets people because it's 388 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: a static shot of the Empire State Building for over 389 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: eight hours, and Andy sets about making the most boring 390 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: film ever made, and it was all about deconstructing the 391 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: notion of cinematic narrative, of taking a storyline out entirely 392 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: and focusing on one object. The only thing that happens 393 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: is as it becomes dusk, the lights turn on. We 394 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: recently realized that the lights on the Empire State Building 395 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: were a very new thing in nineteen six four to 396 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: celebrate the World's Fair, the year that it was filmed, 397 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: and people think of it as a durational um experience. 398 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: When it came out, people challenge themselves to try to 399 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: stay awake to watch the entire thing, and I don't 400 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: know if anyone has ever done that. Actually, Blake Blake Gopnick, 401 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: the art critic who's working on a Warhol book right now, 402 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: has actually stayed awake for the entire thing, and he 403 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: should be alatted for that. But it was just this 404 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: idea of completely redefining what film was and could be. 405 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: And I think because of that Um Empire or Sleep, 406 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: his two earliest films UM are important, But Chelsea Girls 407 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: is also a critical um film for Andy Warhol and 408 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: that it's this idea of voyeurism. It's the idea of 409 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: being a fly on the wall at the Chelsea Hotel 410 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: and seeing all of the strange denizens of that very um, 411 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: odd and quirky environment and seeing the drama that unfolds 412 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 1: their room to room. And there's a script it's not 413 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: really adhered to very closely, and it in many ways 414 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: becomes the emblematic symbol of New York in that very 415 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: specific moment of time. And I also think is the 416 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: first iteration of what we know today is reality television, 417 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: of being that voyeur, that spy who has insight into 418 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: a world that you otherwise wouldn't. And I think we 419 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: can safely blame Andy warholf for I never did you 420 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: never met him? From what you gather from people who 421 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: knew him, what was he like on the most elemental level, 422 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: like when did he wake up in the morning and 423 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: what did he have for breakfast? And not his sexuality, 424 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: meaning was he ever in love? Yeah? Absolutely? Who was? 425 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: Describe him described typical guy who would tend to wake 426 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: up a little bit late ten ten thirty, have breakfast 427 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: the crack of ten. Oh yeah, absolutely. He would call 428 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: Pat Hackett, his assistant, or he would call Bridget first 429 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: thing to gossip about what happened the night before. He 430 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: would often call them the night before as well to 431 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: gossip about what had just happened, and then would remember 432 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: the rest of the next morning. But then he would 433 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: go to work. And he was an incredibly hard worker. 434 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: He was working constantly and he would tell his staff, 435 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: his family, and he mentees that he had you have 436 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: to work hard to be successful. This is not something 437 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: that comes just because of your talent or your skill. 438 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: You really have to work. And he was a workaholic. 439 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: So I would assume that he was working eight to 440 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: ten hours a day every day on Sundays. For example. 441 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: Where he did his painting was where back then, well 442 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: it depends which his house was on sixty six Streets 443 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: between Park and Madison. The first house was at eighty 444 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: nine in Lexington and right across from Gristi's. He lived 445 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: there until the early nineteen seventies. UM. And then he 446 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: bought a mansion on sixty six Street between Park and Madison. 447 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: There's a plaque on the house, so anyone walking on 448 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: the north side of the street there. Um, I'm not 449 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: at liberty to say, but it is someone that has 450 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: seven Warhoulian connections. Okay, yeah, and it's he's kept the 451 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: house exactly as anti Um had it, except for a 452 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: new kitchen and things like that, but otherwise it's just 453 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: like walking into the house. It's amazing. But um Andy 454 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: of course was a social being, so he would throw 455 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: lunch parties at the factory, especially down at eight sixty 456 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: Broadway on the northwest corner of Union Square. And when 457 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: you say the factory, the factory was where the first 458 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: factory was on forty seven Street between Second and third Um. 459 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: Sadly that building was torn down seventies right over by 460 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: the un in Japan Society and it's now a parking garage. Um. 461 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: And where did it move to? Then it moved to 462 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: the west side of Union Square. Um. Well, the first 463 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: move happened in let's see late UM sixty nine. I'm 464 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: thinking to the temporary space on the west side of 465 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: Union Square. And then they moved to six a D Broadway, Um, 466 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: which um served its purpose just into it's the north 467 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: very northwest owner of Union Square. There's a petico on 468 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: the ground floor Broadway. The switch the northwest corner of Broadway. 469 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: And what well it's Union Square, northwest corner of Union Square. 470 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: So Broadway and what fifteenth or sixteen near coffee shop, Yeah, exactly, 471 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: And um there was the till when until he died, No, no, no, 472 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: until UM three and into eighty four. Then and he 473 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: buys an old con ed building in the fifties and 474 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: he moves everything there. It's a massive building and it 475 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: only served its purpose for what four years or so 476 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: until he dies. And that building has gone now as well, 477 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: it was torn down. So the two middle factories still survive. 478 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: The first and the last are gone. What was love 479 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: is in his life? Love for him was his family 480 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: and also his partners, and he did have three long 481 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: term partners public and who were there John Jorneau, the American. 482 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: It was his first really true boyfriend and they dated 483 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: for a while. Um, but they got along incredibly well. 484 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: And John was a huge positive influence on Andy and 485 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: appears in many of his early films and John is 486 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: still with us. He's today still doing his poetry and 487 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: is an amazing, lovely human being. Um. Then later on 488 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, Andy has a long term relationship 489 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: with Jed Johnson, the interior designer. Jed and j Johnson 490 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: were twins who moved to New York and UM got 491 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: jobs as messengers, and UM happened to make a delivery 492 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: to the factory one day, and as soon as Andy 493 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: saw them, UM realized that he was dealing with talent 494 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: because they were incredibly good looking. Um. He took them 495 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: both under his wing and ended up starting to date 496 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: Jed not too horribly long after that, and that relationship 497 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: lasted well into the late nineteen seventies. Um they broke up. Um, 498 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: they had their doc sins together, and there was a 499 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: bit of a scuffle over who was getting the dogs. 500 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: But they had a very loving long term relationship. You 501 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: made a literal scuffle a little m not that way, 502 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: but yeah. And then his last long term boyfriend was 503 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: John Gould, who was a Hollywood executive at Paramount, and 504 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: they had a long distance relationship between New York and 505 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: l A and would often meet in Aspen to spend 506 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: time together and that was Andy's last boyfriend and it 507 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: was in a time, uh well before there was any 508 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: discussion about gay marriage and so forth. But somebody tells 509 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: me that even if there were gay marriage, he wasn't 510 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: the marrying kind. No, he was a solo act, wasn't he. 511 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: He really was in so many ways. And you know, 512 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: Andy Toad the line right down the middle of those 513 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: two poles. He wasn't radical and out with an agenda, 514 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: nor was he closeted and hidden either, but he somehow 515 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: was right in the middle of that. Interesting he just 516 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: didn't talk about it and was incredibly queer in his 517 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: outward presentation to the world, and yet he didn't define 518 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: his life by his sexuality. That was a you know, 519 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: certainly a major part of him, but it wasn't what 520 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: he led with. If he were alive today, what would 521 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: you ask him or would you want to say to him? 522 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,239 Speaker 1: It's interesting to think about if you had access to 523 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: this person. And I will say that, Um, there are 524 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: occasional um seances and um people who try to talk 525 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: to Andy in the afterlife and send messages to me 526 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: through an artist and it's a very creepy thing. And 527 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: I never asked any questions because I don't really quite 528 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: buy into that. How your job it does, We'll trust me. 529 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: There's a lot of weirdness that comes along with my 530 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: job in the Warhol world, which is fantastic, which is 531 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: why I love it. But I think at the end 532 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: of the day, I wouldn't be much more interested in 533 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: the psychology of Andy Warhol and how he everything had 534 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: played out. Was he happy with the way his life unfolded. 535 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: I can pretty much guarantee you that he would say yes, 536 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 1: but one never knows, so I would want to get 537 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: into his career in his mind and how he viewed 538 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: everything is had played out. Did he feel as though 539 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: he mattered? We know today that he did in so 540 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: many ways, and that's what our daily work at the museum. 541 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: And then of course i'd want to ask if he 542 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: was happy with the museum. If Andy Warhol were to 543 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: visit the museum that Eric Scheiner directs, he'd be one 544 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: of over one hundred thousand people each year who tour 545 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: the seven floors full of his work, which includes over 546 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: nine hundred paintings, four thousand photographs, one hundred sculptures, and 547 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: sixty feature films. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to 548 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing