1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk on Buzsnight and this is the Taking 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: a Walk Podcast. Now, what do you do after you've 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: been the voice of one of progressive rock's most uncompromising bands. 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: You signed bon Jovi when no one else would take 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: the risk, and you help shape the sound of metal 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: as president of Roadrunner Records. If you're Derek Shulman, you 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: write a book about it all. Today, I'm taking a walk. 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be joined by Derek Shulman, former 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: frontman of Gentle Giant and legendary music executive who's just 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: released his new book, Giant Steps. Of course we like 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: the title of that because we're taking a walk. He 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: chronicles his remarkable journey from the stage to the boardroom 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: and everything in between. Derek Shulman is next, after we 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: pay a few bills on the Taking a Walk Podcast. 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: Taking a Walk. 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: Well, here on Taking a Walk, we welcome an old 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: old friend, Derek Shuman. Welcome to the Take on a 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: Walk Podcast, Sir. 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: I'm really happy to be here with you. Buzz is 20 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 2: a bit a long time. 21 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: So I like to open with this question which goes 22 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: all different directions, so there's no right or wrong answer 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: to the opening the opening salvo, as it were, Derek Shulman, 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: if you could take a walk with someone living or dead, 25 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: who would you take a walk with and where would 26 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: you take that walk with him? 27 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: Oh? Wow, what a question that is. Okay, I'm gonna 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: say something which is very important to me. I would 29 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: take a walk with my younger brother who passed away 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: a couple of years ago. He was my best friend 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: as well as my sibling, and he was my musical 32 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: partner in both Simon Dupery and General Giant and Post 33 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: General Giant when we did things together with a catalog 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: and we were we were almost twins, I mean, and 35 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: you know, it was very sad that he succumbed to 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: cancer a couple of years ago. So that's that's my 37 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 2: the I thought of all the other people that I 38 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: admire or or have been influential in my life, but 39 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: that's the one I would love to take a walk 40 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 2: with today. 41 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: Well, I want to go back to the beginning when 42 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: you first got impacted by music. Do you remember the 43 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: moment that it smacked you that you knew you'd have 44 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: a life of music, whether as a musician or as 45 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: an executive. 46 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: Probably when as soon as I was able to walk 47 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: because my father was a professional jazz musician and he 48 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 2: was a trumpeter, and and he was first of all 49 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: an amazing musician. He played every night of the week 50 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: and come home in late night. And then when he 51 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: came home, he bring home some musicians and play for 52 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: himself in the front room until a little hours of 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: the morning. So music was always around the house. My 54 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: mother loved music as well, so music and musical instruments 55 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: were always around. So I guess you know, the idea 56 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: of having music in my life was always there. But 57 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: I do remember the time. I remember this two two 58 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: period of the time when I first heard the Beatles 59 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: on the radio in nineteen sixty two, I think Loved 60 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: Me Do came on the radio. I remember hearing that 61 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: and coming into school and saying to a couple of 62 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: friends who are into new music, did you just hear 63 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: that amazing song by the Beatles, Love Me Do? And 64 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: they said, yeah, yeah, what is that? And they changed 65 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: everything for in England. This was for they changed music, 66 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: They changed the culture, They changed the world for kids 67 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: who were into music, who loved music, And had it 68 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: not been for the Beatles, I think that our lives 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: would not be the way that they turned out, certainly 70 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: my life, didn't you know. And then when when that happened, 71 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,119 Speaker 2: my sister had already given me her uh my elder 72 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: sister given me a Spanish guitar. So I learned, you know, 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: a few chords. And when I heard the Beatles, they said, 74 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to put a band together. And I had 75 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: a couple of school friends who were, you know, into 76 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: playing music, and I recruited those, you know, two or 77 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: three school friends and my brother Ray, who was who 78 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: was a violinist, who was a classical violinist, and he 79 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: was actually being groomed to be in the National Youth 80 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: Walker served Great Britain. He was that good. And I 81 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: said to Ray, uh, you know we were putting a 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: band together. Well, he just joined us on the violin 83 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: play rhythm violin it which which is the craziest thing. 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: So we started becoming a group. And it wasn't it 85 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 2: wasn't the group that became cybing the Prey Big Sound. 86 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: It was just a group listening to R and B 87 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: and soul music which we listened to on American Force 88 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: of Network. And then we whittled it down and my 89 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: brother Ray took over the guitar and ultimately we became 90 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: a group called Sigambe Dupre and the Big Sound, and 91 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,239 Speaker 2: my elder brother joined I'd like a low story short, 92 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: which is one what I'm doing, and we were. We 93 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: were quite popular, actually very popular all over UK and 94 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: even in Europe before we had a record deal. And 95 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 2: my sister was married to a BBC producer and she said, 96 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: you know, my brothers are doing really well. Why do 97 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 2: you take a listen to them and see what you 98 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 2: can do? And hen is John King of the name was, 99 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 2: and he came to see us and said, boy, you 100 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: guys are going to how about me managing you? We 101 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: said sure, so he did and he got us an 102 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: audition at Abbey Road and we went up to em 103 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 2: I and Abbey Road in front of us where all 104 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: the staff produced at George Martin, you know we're Gri Paramore, 105 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: you know, Jeff Emeric, etc. There were twenty five producers 106 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: there and we we went on stage and we thought 107 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 2: it was just for a song or two and they said, okay, 108 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 2: play your set, and we thought, what played the whole set? 109 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: Two hour set? So we literally, you know, played our 110 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: set in front of like these guys sitting there like this, 111 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: you know, and we played our set and they said 112 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 2: thank you, and we went back into the van and 113 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: went back to Port that's where we lived. We thought, 114 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: do we get a deal? Did we not get a deal? 115 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: A couple of days later, our manager John King called 116 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: us said you have a record view with part of 117 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: our records and we were on our way. 118 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: Wow, that was the beginning of the ride. 119 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a big able to ride. But you know, 120 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: I do remember for that a little episode which is 121 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: in the book actually, but when I you know, I 122 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: was I had a scholarship to a grammar school in England. 123 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: You know, that's that's where you're streamed to be the 124 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: professionals and the elite of the English society back then. 125 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: I mean there's a very class system, you know, class 126 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: based system then and you're expected to be you know, 127 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: the politicians, the doctors, the lawyers. And I remember this 128 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: this schoolmaster going around when in the second or third 129 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: year we're fourteen or thirteen, and you know, each pupil 130 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: would say, I'm going to be a professor, I'm going 131 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: to be a doctor, I'm going to be in politics. 132 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: And I said, I'm going to be a rock star. 133 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: And in the class, you know, kind of convulsive laughter, 134 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: and I looked around, and then the school battle said, 135 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: don't be silly, Shulman, that that's impossible, one in a 136 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: million that will happen to But you know that's so, 137 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,679 Speaker 2: you know, think of other things. And I said, okay, 138 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: but I'm going to be a rock star. And two 139 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: and a half years later I came back. I was 140 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: still at school, but I had my first single out 141 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: and the same master was asking for my autography. So 142 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: there you are. 143 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: Wow. Now go back to George Martin and Jeff Emerck, 144 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: who you mentioned that were among that group that you 145 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: had to play your your set before. Did you subsequently 146 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: after that have any interaction with with those two gentlemen. 147 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, I mean Jeff Emrick was our engineer for 148 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: several of our singles, and George Martin engineered a couple 149 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: of our singles. We were in abbey Road a lot. 150 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: I mean we for the time in Simon Dupree. We'd 151 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: go up to Abbey Road and you'd have three hour sessions. 152 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 2: Every band who was signed to any EMI label, whether 153 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: it was Parlophone, Columbia, I can't remember what is maybe 154 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: HMV I can't remember, would have three hour sessions. So yeah, 155 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: Jeff Emrick was strange enough. He was the engineer on 156 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: our first ever single, I See the Light this is 157 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: in England and our very last record as Gentle Giant 158 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: in LA when we did Civilian. So Jeff Embric was 159 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 2: the bookends of our recording career if you like. Yeah, 160 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: so we were there with Jeff and George Martin and 161 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: David Parrimore and all these and Alan Parsons and et cetera, 162 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: et cetera. They were all part of the same learning experience, 163 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: if you like, for all of us. 164 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: This book is so incredible. It's such an incredible life 165 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: that you are leading. Take me to the beginning. Three 166 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: brothers deciding to form one of the most complex progressive 167 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: rock bands ever. What was that dinner table conversation? Ultimately, like, well, 168 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: it was it was you know, we were. 169 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: We didn't know what we were going to be. Honestly, 170 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: we just knew that we didn't want to do. What 171 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: we had been doing is being a pop bad but 172 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: a really good one, but playing a circuit where we're 173 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: ultimately playing to an audience that just wanted to hear 174 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: the is we were getting better musically. Also we were 175 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: listening to stuff that was a little more complex anyway. 176 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: And in fact, one of the one of our influences 177 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: influencers was a keyboard player who played with us for 178 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: a little while named reg Dwight, who said, you guys 179 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 2: should listen to some stuff that's going on out on 180 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: the West coast of America, like Frank Zappa, like Miles Davis, 181 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: like Spirit. And in fact, when we told Regg that, 182 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: in fact, we're going to break up, as he because 183 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: he thought the Showman Brothers were pretty damn good musicians, 184 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: and we thought he was pretty damn good himself because 185 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: he played with us for you know, as a as 186 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 2: a sub for several months. We went up to where 187 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 2: he lived in Watford, he just met Bernie. We told 188 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 2: him we're going to break the group up and start 189 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: something new, and he said, I'd love to hear what 190 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: you're doing and perhaps even join, and so Be and 191 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: Ray went up to his house where he's living with 192 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 2: his mom still and heard his songs like Skylron, Pitsion, 193 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 2: et cetera. And you know, we we thought they were great, 194 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: but not really what we were looking for. So we 195 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: went back to Portsmouth. I told him, you know, this 196 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: is not really where we're at. Thankfully for him, because 197 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: you know, six months later he was out and John 198 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: and he was a massive star, and six months later 199 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: we were a Gentle Giant and looking for a gig. 200 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: So so, but he was influential as saying, you guys 201 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: should listen to other things, and we did, and that's 202 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 2: why we decided to break that band up, Simon Duprie, 203 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: and do something. We didn't know where it was going 204 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: to go. But we were lucky enough to have a manager, 205 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: a guy called Jerry Brown, who believed in us musically 206 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: and personally to subsidize us finding other musicians and becoming 207 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: a group called Gentle Giant. 208 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: I think you know this, but the progressive rock community 209 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: to this day is absolutely you know, rabid. They so 210 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: I know there's so many of those rog rockers who 211 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: were with litening to this, taking this all in. But 212 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: you know what a mark progressive rock and Gentle Giant 213 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: to certainly you know, have made on the music community. 214 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: Gentle Giant had this reputation I recall from being really 215 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: a musician's musicians kind of band, incredibly technical, complex time signatures, 216 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: but you were also clearly trying to connect with audiences. 217 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: How did you balance those two goals. 218 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: Well, that's something that was very important to us. We yes, 219 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: we pushed ourselves. You know, we were lucky enough to 220 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: find you know, the first member that we found as 221 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: we put the band together was Carriemneir, who had a 222 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: degree in composition and percussion from the Royal Kadet of 223 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 2: Music and that that was incredibly influential to us. Then 224 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: we found Gary Green, you know, a brilliant blues rock player. 225 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: Ultimately went through a couple of drummers, and John Wellers 226 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: was you know, a superb drummer. But we we loved 227 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: to uh push ourselves musically first, and we didn't. Again, 228 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: it was a combination of different influences in the band, 229 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: the band's members, but we also enjoyed pushing ourselves and 230 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: we had fun doing that, and we loved to when 231 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: we went out on stage. We enjoyed ourselves on stage 232 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: and wanted to have our enjoyment translate to the audience. 233 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: So we wanted to entertain the audience with our music 234 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: and not just you know, play playing music, which is 235 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: again we're not We're not the national lead film or 236 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: the London Philharmonic. We're a band that was having fun, 237 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: enjoy and fun in what we were doing, and we 238 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: wanted to see smiles on the audience's faces as opposed 239 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: to people who were listening to a serious class well 240 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: class old bad or whatever. So that was important, was there. 241 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: I think the the apprenticeship of Cyber Dupree and the 242 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: Big Sound helped us in that in that way, having 243 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: been out there and been a band that entertained as 244 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: well as playing his having that ability to entertain as 245 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: well as play wealth, So I think that was important 246 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: to us. 247 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more of the Taken a 248 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: Walk podcast. Welcome back to the Taking a Walk podcast. 249 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: Obviously, with the writing of Giant Steps, you've had a 250 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: chance to really reflect on the legacy of Gentle Giant. 251 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: What's your reflection of it. 252 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: It was the best ten years of my life, you know. 253 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: I could reflect on all the many, many highs of 254 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: me being in different bands and also being an executive 255 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: or whatever that means, and having been involved in citing 256 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: some of the biggest bands in the world, and that 257 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: was an incredible that and still is an incredible thing 258 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: to be part of. But as I look back. You know, 259 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: there's nothing like the theory of being on stage and 260 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: knowing that you're doing something that it's yours and you're 261 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: you're you're projecting who you are, and having an audience 262 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: that that is enjoying and loving what you're doing and 263 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: wanting to hear more of what, who and what you are, 264 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 2: and and that's something that is very important. And I 265 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: it says one gig. I remember in particular, it was 266 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: it was like nineteen seventy five, seventy six at the 267 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: Shrine Auditorium in La We sold it out, you know, 268 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: eight thousand people, you know, and I remember we were 269 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: on fire. We were really good at this skig. I 270 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: just remember that we were playing our asses often and 271 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: we did our set and the lights went up, and 272 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: we went and went down, and we went out for 273 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: an encore, which is you know, generally the case, and 274 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: we finished our two songs, three songs on core. The 275 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: lights went up and the crowd would leave. They refused 276 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: to leave, so we thought, man, you know, we better 277 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: do something else. So we had a couple of other 278 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: spare songs that this is our repertoire. So we said, Dann, 279 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: we better do some more because they won't to leave, 280 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 2: even though the lights were up. So we went out 281 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: there and played it a couple of other songs. The 282 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: crowd went crazy, but they would not leave. That was 283 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 2: the second old core and we didn't have any other 284 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: more material. Well, he literally had nothing rehearse. So John Weather, 285 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: it's our drummer. We used to you know, the tune 286 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: up and play before, you know, as as sound check, 287 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: you know, a couple of yeah, a couple of songs. 288 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: And we played in the midnight hour. You know that 289 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: That was our you know, our you know, workout song, 290 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: and so listen, we haven't got anything else. Let's play 291 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: in the mid nine hours. So we went out there 292 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 2: and said, guys, here we go. We're going to play 293 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 2: in the mid nine hour for you, and that's what 294 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: we played as the last encore of the Shrine and 295 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 2: even that went down really well and still then in 296 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: the crowd they started to leave then. But boy, that 297 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: was I remember that like it was yesterday, that they 298 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 2: just refused to leave, and that kind of feeling. If 299 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: you could bottle that and sell it, it would be 300 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: worth billions for me anyway. 301 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: So you made this incredible transition from being on stage 302 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: to being behind the desk. How did that amazing transition 303 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: occur and what prompted that decision? 304 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: Well, it certainly wasn't a Plan A or even Plan B. 305 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: When we stopped the band, I was thinking about do 306 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 2: I want to produce bands? Well not really I went 307 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: into the studio, or do I want to manage or 308 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: do I want to go back into a another band 309 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 2: that was not on the radar. I got a call 310 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 2: from a friend who I do from England who was 311 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: now working at a company called PolyGram, and he gave 312 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: me a call. I was living in LA at the time. Uh, 313 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: and he said what are you up to? And I said, well, 314 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: I'm deciding whether to produce this band or whatever, but 315 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: I'm not sure what. And he said, well, we're putting 316 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 2: this new department together at PolyGram called the Walk Department, 317 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: and I've this guy who's running it. I've told him 318 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: about you, and knowing that you know a guy called 319 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: Lee Abram said Jeff Pollard really well at their big 320 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: fans of yours, which you know, well should should touch 321 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: you a little bit there that you'd be great at 322 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: the company because also you're you know, you're a musical. 323 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 2: So I said Okay, Well, he said, what do you 324 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: come to New York and meet this guy Jerry jeff 325 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 2: He was head of the department, And so I did. 326 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: I went out to New York and met Jerry and 327 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: got offered a job in initially promotion and artist development, 328 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: and that was my first entree, if you like, into 329 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 2: the the Darth Vader side of the business. 330 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: I do remember Jerry Jeffy for sure. I'm sure a 331 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: lot of these names that you're gonna pass by I remember. 332 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: So what did your experience as a performing artist teach 333 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: you about being an A and R executive that you know, 334 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: maybe someone who had never been on stage wouldn't understand. 335 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: Interesting thing was it, towards the end of General Giant, 336 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: myself and my brother Ray, more me than Ray, took 337 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: over the management of the band. I think that in 338 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: retrospect it was a mistake, but it probably helped me 339 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 2: get a less more of a sort of an eyeball 340 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 2: for what happened in the business side side of it. 341 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 2: And in fact, when I was in the band Mere, 342 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 2: Ray produced another band out of Pittsburgh called the Grenadi Brothers, 343 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: and I got the record deal with A and M, 344 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: and I got theber tour with Van Halen. I mean 345 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: that was that was even while I was in a band, 346 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 2: which you know, this probably didn't do the General Giant 347 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: very well. I mean we were I was probably doing 348 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: too many things and not focusing as much as I 349 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: should have been on what I should which is at 350 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: the band. However, it gave me kind of an apprenticeship 351 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: into what what was an executive world, if you like. Uh. 352 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 2: And that first day I remember at PolyGram when I started, 353 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 2: I just remember, you know, going from office to office 354 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: and realizing that realizing something. I knew that this wasn't 355 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: the music business. This is a business of music, and 356 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 2: every office had their own agenda, every office had their 357 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: own priority, you know, and you had to have a collective, 358 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: you know, a team to make your band work. And 359 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 2: I wish i'd known that in General Giant. I kind 360 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: of did, but I didn't have the ability or knowledge 361 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 2: or whatever it was to make it work for General Giant. 362 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 2: But I understood it there. And I remember the first 363 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: day I called my wife and said, I can't do this. 364 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 2: You know, this is this is not for me, this 365 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 2: this is not a world I want to be in, 366 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 2: and she said, don't worry. If you stay the course, 367 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: you know, you'll you'll you'll you'll get it, You'll find out. 368 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: And I did, you know? And I eventually, after a 369 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 2: year or so of doing promotion, if you liked and Coley, 370 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: you know the radio stations that you're familiar with, to 371 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: get some of the bands that I didn't really think 372 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 2: was what had a chance, like the Jam that Jerry 373 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: loved and and radio Proverbs didn't love, and to get 374 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: them on the radio, I moved into A and R, 375 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 2: which was much more my liking. And it became you know, 376 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: I became a A and R man. 377 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: You signed bon Jovi when nobody else would essentially touch them. 378 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: Can you walk us through that moment? What did you 379 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: see that others didn't see? 380 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: Well? I heard this song run Away on the radio. 381 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 2: There was a sampler which that w App I think 382 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: put out. And when I heard this song, it was, 383 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: you know, in the background when I was doing my work, 384 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: and I said, well, who is this in this song? 385 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: At the very same time approximately I heard the song, 386 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 2: an attorney from Philadelphia came and said, there's a kid 387 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: called John bon Jovi who just put this song out 388 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: called Runaway. But he's got another four tracks and he's 389 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: putting a band together. And so I brought him into 390 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 2: my office and heard these songs that that daddy's a 391 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: great wherein who are they they said, well, they're he's 392 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: working at the power station with his second cousin, Tony, 393 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: but he wants to put a band together and this 394 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: song is one of the songs that will be on 395 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: the first record hopefully. I said, well, let me meet 396 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: this guy to John bon Jovi. So I said, you know, 397 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 2: to this guy, off the man, bring him in. And 398 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: John came into my office and as he walked into 399 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: the office, all the girls' heads turned and they were 400 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: they were they were slavering. Okay, this is a pretty 401 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 2: young guy. But he came into my office. I said, John, 402 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: you know, I've heard these demos and I've heard the 403 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 2: this track run Away, which is it's just great. I 404 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: mean it's it's it's making a lot of noise. What 405 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: is it you want to do? And he looked at 406 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: me and we chatted a little bit before, but that said, 407 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 2: you know, that was you know, I said, what is it? 408 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 2: And who who is it you want to be? And 409 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: who is it that you want to what is it 410 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,719 Speaker 2: you want to want out of your musical life. And 411 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 2: he said to me, full on with with absolute complete seriousness, 412 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: he said, I want to be as big or bigger 413 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: than Elvis. And this is a kid that just had 414 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 2: a song, one song on the radio, not even with 415 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: a band, with a pickup band at the power station. 416 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: And I believed him one, he said. I believed him 417 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: because I saw in him a drive that is again, 418 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: if you could bottle someone something and sell it, it's 419 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: worth a million million. And he had that. He had 420 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 2: that drive and I saw it in his face. I 421 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: saw it in his eyes, and I saw it in 422 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: his heart. And he said, Okay, this kid has got it, 423 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: and yeah, he's putting his band together. And I said, 424 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: do a couple of shows for me, so I want 425 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 2: to make sure that what you have will translate. And 426 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: we saw a couple of shows. Richie had just begun 427 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: the guitarist. The first show was was okay, it wasn't 428 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: great at the Copacabana in New York. And then they 429 00:25:54,119 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: did a rehearsal show for the Department at Sir and 430 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: it was good. It wasn't great, but it was good. 431 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: But I saw in Richie and John something that was 432 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: very special. So I signed the tour record deal and 433 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: we went this is you Know with with Tony and 434 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: put the first album out. Bon Job and run Away 435 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: was put out as a national hit single and it 436 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: did very well. I mean it wasn't a top ten hit, 437 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: but it did hit the top twenty I think, and 438 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: got them on the map. I introduced them to a 439 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 2: guy called Dot McGee who became business manager. They went 440 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 2: out there and John and the band worked their asses off, 441 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 2: and then then we put another album out. I'll just 442 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: give you my quick history up until the Big Break, 443 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: if you like. The next album was done in Philadelphia, 444 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: and it wasn't It wasn't a very pleasant experience, to 445 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 2: be perfectly honest. It was the wrong producer. He came 446 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 2: this a Lance Quinn who worked with him in the 447 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: power station in Philadelphia. That was not a pleasant experience. 448 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: The album that came out was kind of like a 449 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: It was a step up from what the first album was. 450 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 2: It was kind of a step aside. But meanwhile they 451 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 2: were playing everywhere and then we decided, okay, what are 452 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: we going to do here? Because John and the band 453 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 2: they made a lot of strikes in their live show. 454 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: Now they had to bring it home with their records 455 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: and I said, John, what about having a co writer? 456 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 2: Ordinarily about if I say that to a band. They 457 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 2: kicked me out and said get the hell out of here. 458 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 2: But John was absolutely pragmatic. I mean he said, listen, 459 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: if someone could help out get me to where I'm 460 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: going to go, I'm up for it. Who do you think? 461 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: And I got in touch with the guy with Gene 462 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: Sillons because I saw on his albums I saw, you know, Simmons, 463 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: Stanley and Child and I said, gee, who's this guy Child? 464 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: And he said do you remember this band Desmond Child 465 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: in Rouge? I said sure, yeah, we were on Capitol Records. 466 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 2: It was the same label as General Giant. He said, well, 467 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: Desmond Child is a great songwriter. He wrote just look 468 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 2: it up and with me, and you should meet with 469 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: him because he's a great writer. So I met Desmond 470 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: and I said, Desmond, I've got this band Bond Joby. 471 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: He said, sure, I know the band and they're looking 472 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: to hopefully write with a co writer. Would you like 473 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 2: to meet them? And he said sure. So I actually 474 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: put John and Rochie together with Desmond and I wrote 475 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: together and I heard the demos of this album, which 476 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: became slippy when we went. And then I said, Okay, 477 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 2: who are we going to record with? And I toured 478 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: the lover Boy album and Saga album out of Vancouver 479 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: with Bruce Fairburn and Bob Rock and I got in 480 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: touch with those guys and I said, we've got this band, 481 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: bon Zobi and they said, well we know the band, 482 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: said there's some demos, and when set in the demos, 483 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 2: they said, we'd love to do it. We went up 484 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: to Vancouver to cut to the chase Slabria. When went 485 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: was recorded, we came back to New York, completed the team, 486 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 2: and I knew then absolutely one herb setting you then 487 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: that bon Jovi was going to be as big as Elvis. 488 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: What a great story, my god, amazing stories in this book. 489 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: Your career would then take you to be president of 490 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: Roadrunner Records and just you know, creating an amazing brand 491 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: and road Runner and Occo before that. Yes, yeah, I mean, 492 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: just are there bands or artists that you go Why 493 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: did I pass on them? 494 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 2: You? Well, not hardly any Only one that I remember 495 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: that I wasn't sure of and I did pass and 496 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: that was Beck of all things, remember him coming in 497 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 2: and playing the Loser, and I didn't didn't like it 498 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: that much, you know, it sounded weird to be you know, 499 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 2: and I thought about and I played it. You know, 500 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: I think that was an that coat, uh and you 501 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: know I passed on it, and look, I was wrong. 502 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: I'd like that was a big mistake and beg was 503 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: was is still you know, a very creative forced and 504 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: that's a great song. I don't know, maybe I was 505 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 2: in a bad mood that they are or didn't have 506 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: any sleep or that night, but I missed that one. 507 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: But for the most part, there was It wasn't any 508 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 2: other band that I said I should have could have. 509 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: There were a couple of bands that I wish had 510 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: made it because they were that they were good enough 511 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: to make it. But for the most part, just about 512 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: every band that I signed and became successful, they weren't 513 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: being chased by other band other labels. They were bands 514 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 2: that were doing things which was theirs. And that's something 515 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 2: that was important to me. That this is whether it's 516 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: bon Jovi or Cinderella or Pantera or Dream Theater or 517 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: all these bands, no other label would chase them. They 518 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: were doing something which which was in this world I 519 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: used it many times. They were authentic, they were doing 520 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: something which was theirs and no one else's. And for 521 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: the most part, labels would chase bands that were already big. 522 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: You know, let's let's go chase you know, the West 523 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: Coast to hair hair band thinking, the Hollywood, you know, 524 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: the sunset strip bands. I never got involved in that world, 525 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: and I never got involved in chasing the next thing 526 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: because it was big. I got involved with bands that 527 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,479 Speaker 2: were doing their own thing. And I think for the 528 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: most part, the bands that I signed, I feel fortunate 529 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 2: that they're still around and I still have careers. And 530 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: that's the key to a band that's authentic and dub 531 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: it and do their own thing, because they ultimately will 532 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: have a long career. And I'm glad that when I 533 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: listened to you know, when I just on the phone 534 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: to to the guys a Dream Theater, you know they're 535 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: up for you know, Grammy this year. You know that 536 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: they were you know, they're still around. Bon Jovi is 537 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 2: still around, you know, the Slipknot is still around, nickel 538 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: Back is still around. All these bands that I sign, 539 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 2: they're still around after thirty odd years, so they have 540 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: careers and the reason why is because they were doing 541 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 2: their own thing, not copying anybody else's. 542 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: In closing, boy, I could talk to you forever. Really, 543 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: any advice to the young Derek Shulman that you wish 544 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: you could have maybe given you that would have even 545 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: made you more of a force. I don't know how 546 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: you could have been more of a force. But is 547 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: there any advice you would have given yourself back then? 548 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: Well, I shouldn't my own advice. What I said to 549 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: said to the school teacher, I'm going to be a 550 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: rock star, and I stuck to it. And I think 551 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: what I would say today if you're a musician, certainly 552 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 2: because the the the gates, the gatekeepers and and the 553 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: gates are so hard to get through in this day 554 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,959 Speaker 2: and age where it was a little different when I 555 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 2: was an executive. And certainly you know a band and 556 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: band member because you played and you you became popular 557 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 2: because you've got a lot of fans. What I would 558 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: say to a musician is, don't look at analytics. Don't 559 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: don't don't look at your uh, your likes or your 560 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 2: your your views on YouTube or whatever. Be fucking great 561 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: at what you do and do something that's yours and 562 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 2: do something that is not anyone else's and get an 563 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: audience and play and play and play until until you 564 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: have something that you build a fan base that is 565 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: yours and no one else's, and that way you'll make 566 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: it somehow or other, even though there's there's so many 567 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: other things in your way. But you know, it's hard 568 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: to do that in this day and age. When I 569 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 2: was doing it, there were a lot more places to play, 570 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 2: clubs to hone your skills. But as far as the 571 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: recording business is concerned, I feel badly and I feel 572 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: a little sad that the younger generation looks for fame 573 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 2: and money first as opposed to you know, and likes 574 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: and views, rather than be really good at what they do. 575 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 2: Just just be really really good, not really good. Be 576 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 2: great at what you do and don't look for likes 577 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 2: or views or you know, five seconds of fun riffs 578 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: or or silly moves on TikTok. That's all well and good, 579 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: but that won't get you a career. The bands I 580 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 2: talked to and the band I was in, Gentle Giant, 581 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: fifty years later, is still it's I want to say, 582 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 2: it's popular, but just well in some respects more popular 583 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 2: in Today's More World, and that it was when we 584 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 2: were on the road. The hip hop community is has 585 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: taken to our band, and last week we were Songwriters 586 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: of the Year at BMI because Travis Scott I sampled 587 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 2: Proclamation and it was the most played song on Spotify 588 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 2: last year. So that says a lot about what I'm 589 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 2: saying here. Be authentical and be yourself and be great. 590 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: Amen. Derek Shulman, would you come back sometime on Taking 591 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: a Walk. 592 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 2: I'd love to of course. 593 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: Oh my God, giant steps the book. We always talk 594 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: about the President, we talk about music history. You are 595 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: music history. You've created it. And I'm so honored that 596 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: you came on to talk to me Derek. And it's 597 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:51,959 Speaker 1: nice to see you again. 598 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to see you again. Mad, great to 599 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 2: see you. 600 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: Thank you. 601 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk. 602 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 3: Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow 603 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 3: us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk 604 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 3: is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever 605 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 3: you get your podcasts.