WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 24 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.400 Hey there, I'm jess Mi Lady Confetti here. Hi, I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.080 Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome to 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.399 Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas tube 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.119 leveled up, bringing an XP boost to the table. We 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.800 picked the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and industries 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.439 across the globe to help our listeners achieve their own 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.799 boss level. We are not just creating a podcast, but 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.400 a gamified, an engaged community. Listened to Boss Level on 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.280 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:36.040 get your podcasts. HM okay recording. You have a story 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.960 to tell and maybe you thought I should start a podcast. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.600 Meet Anchor. It's a powerful app that lets you record 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.040 a podcast anywhere and get it heard everywhere. All you 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.000 need to do is download the free Anchor app and 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.839 hit record. Just go to Anchor, dot fm, slash get started. 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.720 Your story matters, Make a podcast with Anchor. That's Anchor, 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:02.760 dot fm, slash get started. Great. I think we got it. Hey, 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:04.840 it's de Leeper. I'm here to tell you about my 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.800 brand new podcast, de Reliper. At your service, I'll be 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.720 sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds to uncover 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:12.800 what makes them tick and what they've learned from the 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.080 obstacles life has thrown at them, including Sir Elton John. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.880 After a lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.320 lot of betrayals, it's turned out to be the most 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:25.080 wonderful life right now that I've could ever imagined. Listen 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.479 to do Reliper at your service on the I Heart 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:32.720 Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.759 Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know. 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.520 This is a compoletion episode. So every episode of the 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.280 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.640 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.000 in a long stretch if you want. If you've been 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.160 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:52.240 be nothing new here for you. But you can make 0:01:52.280 --> 0:02:00.680 your own decisions, all right. We'll find so clever way 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:07.960 to introduce us. Huh. You know what, I might just 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.760 go with that. I will find some clever way to 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.600 introduce us, and that is that is the introduction now. 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.839 Because because I said it, Hello, welcome to it could 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.760 happen here today. We are going to be talking about 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:27.360 UM Internet privacy and some new bills that will possibly 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:34.880 undermine it. UM. Today I have with me Christopher Hello, Christopher, Hello, 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.919 I am here. I am. I don't know if excited 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:42.679 is the right word, but no, people are really excited 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.880 to come on the show. This is a this is 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:52.440 a mild dread of the Internet. I try because we definitely, 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:56.160 we definitely can. Things don't need to be always horrible 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:58.440 and grim, even when you're talking about things that aren't great. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.960 But yeah, today we'll be talking about some some interesting things. 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.760 As per the title of this episode will probably be 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.880 related to we are talking about the proposed earn It Act, 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.840 and we'll just I'll explain what it is in the 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.760 different kind of implications that could have on how like 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.280 everyone uses the internet, UM, but also affects a few 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.720 specific types of people in particular. So but kind of 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.280 part of this whole thing. We're gonna start off by 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:26.960 talking about something a little bit different and then to 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.840 kind of segue to the inn An act. UM. So 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.880 last year, Apple, the company announced like a controversial plan 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.920 to install photo scanning software into every kind of every 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.200 every device. UM. Apple's kind of long been seen as 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.200 a pro privacy company UM. In the past, they have 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.800 like refused FBI demands to help investigators bypass locked phones. 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:51.720 So this this idea on this plan to create a 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.200 backdoor into the iPhone storage system to scan for photos. 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:56.720 It was kind of a big deal coming for Apple 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.120 because they were definitely, at least in the past, known 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.560 as a generally like out of all of the companies, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.320 the ones that if you're dealing with sensitive matters, Apple 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.680 is generally generally the better one. That that it has 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.480 become less of a case in the past few years, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.280 but that was that that definitely was the case. So 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.960 when when this kind of idea was announced, there was 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:19.640 a decently sized global coalition also formed to push back 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.200 on this thing UM and the company did pause the plan. Now, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.400 this came out a time that a lot of different 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.000 kind of companies were also pushing back against not safe 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:34.000 for work materials UM, specifically for like like like relating 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.680 to the transactional money and banks. This was you know, 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.760 around the time that only fans was flip flopping on 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.360 whether they would actually have not safe for work kind 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.400 of materials as a part of this kind of growing 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:50.880 trend of like worrying about Um, the term now is 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.599 like child sexual abuse materials were traditionally was it's called 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.760 child pornography or you know. So it's part of this 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.479 kind of overall kind of extra fo because that tech 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.200 companies have about being worried that if they if someone 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.240 is doing that who is underage, or if someone's being 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:11.320 exploited who's underage. Um, you know, they could unfinancially hurt 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.200 the company. So they're trying to a lot lots of 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.000 companies have been trying to do this thing to prevent 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.040 that legal and financial issue for happening. Now, of course, 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.600 all this really actually ends up doing is just negatively 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.360 affecting sex workers. Um. But that's that's kind of a 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.560 topic for a different episode because we're talking about the 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.720 Arenet Act more specifically, and not not specifically talking about 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.800 only fans. But this was Apple's plan to kind of 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.120 scan all these photos to make sure that that they 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.520 were not you know, naked photos of and of children. UM. Now, 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.200 there's whole much of other privacy issues around that because 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.920 I mean, obviously teens do take news and send them 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.120 to each other and there is really no stopping that. Um. 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.800 So the idea that all these shots are getting scanned 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.400 and then seen and then like it would be The 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.920 idea was that parents would be like alerted if something 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.400 was found on the phone auomatically, which means that for me, 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:03.960 I have a whole bunch of other issues with that, 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.560 Like that is a whole another kind of level, especially 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.919 for queer kids, like that is like that is a 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.440 whole again, but that that is mostly a whole whole 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:15.599 other discussion that I'm not going to talk about right 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:16.920 now because we are I do want to focus is 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.480 focus this more on the more on the earn it act. Um. 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.880 But so this this plan was paused, Um, But now 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.640 that may not necessarily matter actually, um, because Congress kind 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.920 of wants to force Apple's hand along with along with 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.800 essentially every other company that allows users to store or 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.799 share messages or kind of really any content. Um. And 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.159 Congress is some senators and there's a bill that will 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.120 try to essentially mandate photo scanning and specific photo scanning 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:53.320 technology approved by the government. So yeah, So while Apple's 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.200 plan would have put privacy and it's the security at 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.320 risk for all of us users, the Earned Act of 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.600 compromises the security and free speech for basically everyone who 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.960 uses the Internet. Um. The bill would create serious legal 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.680 risks for businesses that host content such as messages or 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:14.000 photos of stored in the cloud, online backups, and potentially 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.360 even any kind of cloud hosting sites such as Amazon 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:22.600 Web Services, which means basically most of the Internet UM 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.480 and based so have the all these companies, all these 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.040 services and companies would be in serious legal risk unless 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.200 they use this government approved scanning tools. A version of 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.120 this bill was first introduced two years ago, sponsored by 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:40.120 Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, and Senator Richard Blumenthal, 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.240 a Democrat from Connecticut. And now, like a lot of 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.560 these other things, it is allegedly aimed at tackling so 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.320 called child sexual abuse material online. UM. Which is which 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.480 is a problem there is the kids definitely do get exploited. UM, 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.200 kids do get groomed, exploited, photos of children do get 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.480 shared online. Uh. That like that that that actually is 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.000 a real issue. UM. Now, a lot of the ways 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.760 that these tools get implemented don't actually address that issue. 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.640 And of course it doesn't actually deal with the people 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:11.400 that do this, like you know, like the bad the 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.120 bad people that do exploit kids. It doesn't necessarily deal 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.280 with them either. That is that is what they wrapped 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.480 this idea as the original bills that was introduced two 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.640 years ago threatened encryption and privacy features that would have actually, 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.320 you know, put Americans privacy, particularly particularly the privacy of children, 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.120 UM at risk. It also got in section to thirty 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.000 in ways that caused over fifty civil rights groups to 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.880 pennel letter describing the potential consequences UM of such things 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:41.720 like censorship, um, you know, cramming down on free speech, 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:46.199 and the basically destruction of encryption. So when the legislation 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.679 failed to advance two years ago, digital UM, liberty advocates, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.240 you know, sex workers, civil rights organizations all breathed a 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.440 sigh of relief. But this past month, as I record 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.960 this um in twenty in February, a group of lawmakers, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.240 again led by Senator Richard Bluementhal and Senator Lindsay Graham, 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.400 reintroduced the Earnet Act UM, a slightly modified version of 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.920 it UM, and on the on the tenth of February, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.480 the Senate to Judiciary Committee voted to advance the dangerous 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.640 earn It Act bill. So yeah, it is, it is. 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.640 It is chugging along a bit further than what it 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.560 did than what it did last time. The earn AT 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.200 Act aims to tackle the horrific criminal activity related to 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.679 child sexual abuse material by making Section to thirty protections 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.760 contingent on the prevention and response to such a material online. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.240 So Section to thirty shields online services like you know 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:43.800 commonly used social media from liability from most user generated content. 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.800 Under earn it, a Section to thirty would be amended 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.480 to enable civil claims and state criminal prosecution related to 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:55.280 child abuse materials online against platforms. Now already this can 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.320 kind of happen federally a little bit, um but it 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.120 depends on how the company responds to it. So, but 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.600 this would introduce a whole new wave for civil claims 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.480 and state claims to be filed against companies like this. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.520 Um if if if if if material like this is 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.359 to be found hosted on their site you know, including 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.240 you know that. That would even include if like someone 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.400 who's underage operates a not safe for work twit our 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.440 account that they probably should not be operating. Um but 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:24.640 this this you know this this could also this could 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.120 basically make the company in trouble. They could fall under 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.680 state claims or civil claims, so as as a result, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.240 online services could be subjected to endless litigation under fifty 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.040 different you know legal law systems per you know, for 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.040 all the states regarding you know, finding child sexual beast 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.720 material online. So the bill's proponents claim that this isn't 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.120 necessarily a problem for any service as long as it 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.920 is scanning the files then reporting child sexual beast material 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.600 to law enforcement. Internet companies are already required to report 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.600 suspected material if they come across it, and they do 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.000 report material on a massive scale that often comes comes 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.560 with a lot of mistakes. Facebook is often held as 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.560 a positive example by what lawmakers and law enforcement for 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.839 how much they do report such such material. But while 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.560 their new scanning techniques have produced many millions of reports, 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.199 most of them are inaccurate. Like most of them actually 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.480 aren't of miners. It's it's it's not it's not actually none, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.240 none of the scanning material is good because a lot 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.480 of cases, many people up into their thirties can get 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:30.480 often flagged and often like even non humans can get flagged, 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.040 like pictures of fruit because like like it's not like 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.760 it's not like, yeah, none of these scanning tools are 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.040 actually very good. Yeah, and like this is I think, 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.280 I think a thing that like, if you've never liked 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.520 had to work with a machine learning algorithm before, I 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:48.120 think it's difficult to understand how unbelievably bad these things are. 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:53.480 Like it's just these oh god, like the the the 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.559 incomprehensible horror of trying to get a machine learning algorithm 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.200 to do the thing that you wanted to do and 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.079 not do the the things that you're not that you 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:02.840 don't want it to do. To like, you know, be 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.120 able to tell a difference between like a particularly smooth 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.760 and round peach and like Child's exeibuse material. You know, 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.000 you human being can do this, right. The machine cannot. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.760 And it is they it is horrifically inaccurate. You have 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.200 to do all kinds of like hacking stuff together in 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.240 order to get this stuff to work. And yeah, it's 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.160 it's it's a fiasco. A good example of this that 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.720 I've that I've heard before that I'm probably gonna butcher 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.080 this explanation, but you know that you can take, you know, 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.960 a photo of a wolf, um, maybe even three photos 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:37.880 of a wolf, and say here this is these these 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.800 are photos of wolves. Um, here's the here's other here's 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.280 here's these these are photos. Find which ones are wolves, 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.839 and it'll, you know, it'll it'll sort throw the ones. 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:47.600 So some of them have wolves, some of them don't. 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.000 Um and it only finds one picture that says this one, 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.200 based on the three photos you've given me, this photos 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.680 is a wolf, and instead the photo is not. The 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.040 photo is of a tree. And you're like, why did 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.320 it tell me this is a wolf? And the computer 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.360 will answer, well, look at all the all of the 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.920 backgrounds are the same because it's trying, it's trying to match, 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.160 like it doesn't have the same thing that humans do. 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.400 When when all these computer algorithms that are trying to 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.800 learn to replicate and trying find these patterns, it is 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.640 never perfect. So the big thing that is people often 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.440 overlook is that, yeah, specifically with this, like with with 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.800 Facebook scanning tool and the millions of reports that that 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.280 it does make. You know, federal law enforcement will frequently 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.360 use the massive number of reports to suggest there is 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:34.360 this giant recent uptick in child sexual abuse materials. But 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.480 that's not because there actually is. That's because this the 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.080 scanning that some companies are doing is just so bad, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.600 Like it's just it's just some accurate that it flags 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.080 so many things, so like in action, the new earn 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.760 It Act would just pave a massive new surveillance system 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.360 run by private companies that would roll back some of 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.280 the most important privacy and security features and technology used 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.080 by people around the globe. Right, the idea is to 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.280 compel private companies to scan every message that sent online 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.120 and report violations to law enforcement. And it may not 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.480 stop there. That in an act could ensure anything hosted 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.079 online incular like backups, websites, cloud photos, and more, is 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.120 all scanned. Now, of course you can say, I mean 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.080 there is no actual true privacy online, right. The n 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.960 s A does see everything, which is basically true, but 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.920 stuff like local police departments in the FBI do not 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.200 have constant access to what the n s A has 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.800 It does actually like legally, it does actually take some 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.760 time for that to happen. The fact that all these 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.280 private companies would be doing it for them um and 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.720 the fact that this would actually break encryption makes people 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.480 like the FBI makes the local law enforcement have a 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.960 much easier time accessing what we do on the Internet, 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:42.920 because yes, the n s A kind of does always 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.720 see everything, but that that this actually this actually is 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.920 this actually is quite different in terms of the accessibility 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.480 of that information. And I think I think it's also 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.520 you know, to to to go back into one of 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.400 the sort of like encryption arguments to right, So, okay, 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.640 what once you put a backdoor into decryption? Right once 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.840 once once you have you know, you have your system, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:05.520 you have your encryption system. But you know, now there's 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.640 now there's a way to access it, right, because oh, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.360 well we need to access these you know, we need 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.720 to be able to decrypt this in order to see 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.640 if there's like child pornography materials on it. Right. Once 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.680 that backdoor exists, any anyone who finds it can use 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.320 it for anything they want. And it's it's it's it's 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:22.880 not even just that like well we'll get into some 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.000 other things around encryption, but but yeah, continue, yeah, and 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:27.400 you know, and I think I think this is something 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.520 that I think people don't like. The people who are 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.200 just thinking about this in terms of child pornography don't 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.200 think about which is that like I don't know a 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.760 lot like there these these kinds of backdoors, right, like 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.320 other people can find them, yes, and you know, okay, 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:46.720 now now you've just put it back to it all 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.560 of the encryption, like oh, hey, here's you know, like 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.400 here you're you you are, you are going to get 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.600 people killed, and you're gonna get people killed because you're 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.600 going to have people who are doing things under governments 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.320 that you know, will will will Like you know, you're 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.280 gonna have people in mel mart You're gonna have people 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.280 in You're gonna have people in Egypt. You're gonna have 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.960 people in Syria who like these these regimes and like 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.120 these you know, private private companies right are are going 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.760 are going to sell the backdoors to ease regimes and 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.440 they're going to use it to hunt down, torture and 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.520 kill people. And so yeah, there is there's a lot 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.640 of problems with them, especially especially how it how it 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.600 kind of addresses encryption, because the bill does try to 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.480 actually have some encryption protections, but the way they go 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.880 about it, of course is not is not adequate, and 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.000 it even kind of fosters it's its own negation in 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.440 some ways if you read the entire bill. So, but 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.880 I'll get more into encryption in a sec because there 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:45.400 are other like technical issues with the way this bill 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.120 is designed and how it would be enacted. There is 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.760 this sort of benefit to having a legal material that 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.520 is that is actually exploding miners being primarily hosted on 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.800 big tech platforms because these platforms are used so much 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.000 and are mostly non restricted, so it makes catching this 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.520 stuff and reporting it actually much easier, like it is 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:07.720 if they're hosted on these mainstream things. It does make 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.320 seeing it and reporting less difficult. So not only will 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.760 this bill make tech companies be more likely just to 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.560 ban all not safe work material in general, right, because 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.639 if companies are forced to scan and they're gonna be 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.240 filing swimming reports that this will this will result in 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.800 a lot a lot more companies just saying no new 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.600 photos at all, like just completely gone. Not only will 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.440 this bill just make tech companies more likely to ban 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.919 all not safe work content in general, which would be 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.000 horrible for sex workers and just a bad precedent. But yeah, 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.800 they would be more likely just to do that because 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:40.960 of how much overscanning there would be and just a 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:42.840 whole bunch of things we'd create. It would create too 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.080 many fears of legal repercussions. Thus, you know, that would 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.560 force people who distribute child porn onto more sketchy sites 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.480 and sites that might just refuse to scan content in 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.680 general because they're temporary hosting. But the bill could also 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.159 just to scare these bad people off of mainstream platforms 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.440 and make them voluntarily migrate to more niche and hard 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.840 to find the corners of the Internet, making illegal content 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.719 harder to catch and take down, because there will always 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.680 be weird temporary sites to host this type of thing. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.800 Like they're always they're like, these bad people will find 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.760 a way. It's always like that is it is gonna 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.520 always be a problem. Um. And so in a way, 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.760 it's it is better to have these things on mainstream 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.040 platforms because reporting them and taking them down can be 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.600 much easier. Um. It's it's like it's like when people 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:33.080 really advocate platforms like Telegram shut down all fascist channels, right. 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.440 The thing is is that there's a lot of benefits 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.040 to having these chat rooms on Telegram because it makes 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.960 them really easy to monitor and really easy to infiltrate. Um. 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.600 So there's a lot worse places for fascists to organize. Um, 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:49.840 if you're doing it on Telegram, it's actually really easy 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.560 to watch. So it's this weird given take in terms 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.120 of in terms of where where these things happen, because 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.879 they are going to happen somewhere. So I now want 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.159 to talk about how specifically this bill threatens UH threatens 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.560 online encryption services all right, UM. The bill would strip 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.119 critical legal protection for websites, apps, and specifically Section to thirty. 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.439 If passed, it would empower many different levels of government 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:17.119 to make sweeping new Internet regulations right in individual States 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.199 will be able to pass laws UM to hold private 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:25.000 companies like libel um as long as they somehow relate 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.760 their new rules to child abuse materials. It's like they 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.720 they able to have a whole bunch of new rules 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:34.280 on Internet regulations if they can sift it through this lens. 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.480 The goal is to get states to pass these laws 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.119 that will punish that will punish companies when they deploy 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.879 end and encryption or offer other encryption services. This includes 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.240 messaging systems like What's Apps, Signal my Message, and as 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.680 well as web hosting like Amazon Web Services um earn. 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.200 It aims to spread the use of tools to scan 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:58.240 all online content against law enforcement databases like directly UM. 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.960 In a myths and Facts document and distributed by the 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:05.200 bill's proponents, it even names a government approved software program 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.359 that they could mandate called a photo DNA, which is 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.160 a program that Microsoft made that reports directly to law 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:16.360 enforcement databases. So arn it doesn't specifically attack encryption per 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:20.600 se um. But that's because it doesn't need to, Like 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.360 it doesn't have to because of the way the bill 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.240 is designed how it approaches encryption is actually a little 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.240 more insidious. Um. It allows the fact that encryption exists 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.160 on the platform itself to be used as evidence against 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.560 a company in order to find it liabele for hosting 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.880 child sexual abuse materials. So they can use the fact 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:44.879 that encryption exists as evidence, which is wild, Like this 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:46.800 is this is the thing. This is the thing that 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.760 CCP does a lot like with you know, like they'll 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:51.720 they'll use they're used the fact that like somebody is 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.520 using a VPN for example, as evidence that their turk. 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.040 This happens constantly and and it's it makes a lot 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.040 of a lot of encryption stuff incredibly unsafe because like 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:03.280 you know, you show up with your phone, you have 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.800 signal on it, and like, well you're this is this 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:07.280 is this is proof. We're just gonna we're gonna locker 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.800 up and throw away the key. Yeah, and yeah, it's 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:13.520 extremely bad. So the result is that laws will make 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.920 companies liable um if they don't scan and report user 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.639 content for child, sexual beast materials, which they can't do 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.840 unless they make break encryption. You know, big companies like 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.920 Apple um are going to full to to protect themselves. 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.160 UM so earn it would is like it coerces these 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.960 sites and platforms and services to do this sort of scanning. 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.080 And not just some messages, but all online content encrypted 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:40.359 or not. UM. Companies that handle online content would have 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:42.840 to weigh the benefit of their users securely encrypting their 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.200 data content against the legal risk of doing so. UM. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.359 And encryption becomes much harder when it, you know, puts 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.240 the company's bottom line at risk. And and and and 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.120 like and and and and. Encryption isn't just for messages, right, 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:58.119 It's it's not just on signal. It secures most of 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:00.359 the Internet, or at least at least a out of it, 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:04.360 keeping what you do allegedly you know, private unsafe online. 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.560 You can't have a secure internet where all the content 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:14.640 is also screened because you can't haven't encryption alongside mass 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.480 scanning requirements. It's just so, this isn't just an attack 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.080 on encryption, it's attack on any fund of fundamental security 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:26.520 that the Internet you know has. Yeah, and you know 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:33.800 there's lots of like god, there are lots of extremely 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.959 technical reasons why this is an extremely bad face Like 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:40.879 it's like okay, yeah, like you you you think you 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:44.720 think malware is bad? Now like god, like look at 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:47.960 like the things the things that will happen, Like you 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:51.639 you think people are stealing apes now, like the things 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:53.679 that will happen if you have to if you have 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.800 to deal with an Internet that's unencrypted, are you know, 0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:00.960 like you know, it's an absolute horror show like if yeah, 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:05.800 like I yeah, it's this. This is a thing bad 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:07.919 enough that like I do not have the words to 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.840 express how catastrophic this would be because it's just a 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:13.080 fundamental structure of the Internet. It really is not just 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.440 for messages like the earn it uh miss and fast 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.440 document also like specifically attacks Amazon for not scanning enough 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.880 of its content um and since Amazon is the home 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.440 of Amazon Web Services, which hosts a huge number of websites, 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.320 that implies that like the bill's aim is to ensure 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.000 that anything hosted online also gets scanned, like like like 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:38.320 everything the online service providers, even the smallest ones, will 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.479 be compelled to scan user content with government approved software 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:44.600 like photo do an a UM and if earn It 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:47.919 supporters succeed in getting large platforms like cloud fair and 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:50.919 web services to scan, they may not even need to 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:54.200 compel smaller websites because the government will already have access 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:58.520 to the data through the cloud platforms. So like, as 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.399 long as they get you know, these hosting platforms, they 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:03.240 don't even like, they won't even need need to bother 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:05.840 with a lot of with a lot of smaller sites. 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.520 I think there's another thing I think that's probably worth 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:13.840 mentioning here, which is so we don't really have like 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:16.200 the time to fully go into this in this episode, 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:18.760 but like there's a lot of this sort of stuff 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:22.760 is being pushed by these incredibly right wing evangelical anti 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:26.680 porn groups and their goal is just to eliminate anything 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:31.000 that is not like part of their sort of fundamentalist 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:34.919 Christianity from the Internet and those people. And this is 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:38.320 this is particularly relevant to this because those people are 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:43.000 going to find a way to to to like to 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.840 bring lawsuits against these companies specifically so that they specifically 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:47.960 so that they can do is because this is you 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:49.639 know what what what you've done. Is that you've just 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:51.920 handed them a gun. Porn sites will all be taken 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:54.040 down because they'll be because they'll be facing so many 0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.760 endless lawsuits um like only like only fans will no 0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:00.480 longer host ethical poor like like not none of this 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:02.240 will have like all of it will be taken down. 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.880 No one like there this will this will attack sex 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:09.200 workers to such an absurd degree. Um it'll make base. 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:11.719 It will make a lot of, if not most, online 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:14.240 sex work just impossible because there will be so many 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.320 lawsuits always happening that companies will just always ban it 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:19.600 just because they can't. They can't risk dealing with all 0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:24.120 those legal fees. Um it's it's yeah. And and and 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:26.600 in the fact that state prosecutors and private attorneys will 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:28.800 be able to drink an online service provider into court 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:32.760 over accusation that their users committed crimes and then use 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:36.000 the fact that the service chose to encrypt like like 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:39.760 chose to use encryption um at all as evidence against them. 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:42.880 Is the fact that the strategy specifically allowed under earn 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:45.680 it will like it makes the possibilities of this type 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:49.439 of thing just endless, like like imagine imagine, like they'll 0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:53.000 be able to take down signal so easily because like 0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:55.639 it's it's it's it's wild all if they can, if 0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:59.119 they can find one instance of you know, as like 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:03.000 as like a of an abuser using signal or has 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.639 you signal, then basically all of signal description will be 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:09.200 severely threatened, UM because of the way that legal finds 0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:13.159 will be forced onto this company. It's is like specifically 0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:15.280 for stuff based like for any kind of in any 0:26:15.400 --> 0:26:18.600 any service allowed in the States. And yeah, it's really 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:22.959 frustrating because you know, people including senators UM who are 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:25.400 pro earn it, say that the new tools are necessary 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:28.080 to tackle the issue of online child abuse and the 0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:31.480 and the distribution of illegal materials online. But you know, 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:36.359 obviously like possessing, viewing, or distributing child poor and or 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:40.040 child sexual abust materials is already written into laws. Is 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:44.320 a serious, like it's an extremely serious crimes can do yes, 0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:47.560 and it has a broad framework of existing laws seeking 0:26:47.560 --> 0:26:51.000 to eradicated. Right people cannot like companies can already get 0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:54.000 in federal trouble if they're find if they're found to 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:56.520 continue if like you know, if stuff is found and 0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:58.800 they continue to host it, or if they're going if 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:01.360 like their state of purpose is to hosted like like 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:04.560 some of the most trouble you can get into UM 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:08.160 at least at least like on the books, UM, because 0:27:08.200 --> 0:27:09.600 you know you can you can look at you know 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:12.520 how many cops are involved with this type of thing 0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:15.280 as like than to be like like like as evidence said, 0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:17.280 like it doesn't like it may not get enacted upon. 0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:20.000 Always there was there was a horrible story recently of 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:22.639 a teacher who sorry, this this is this is this 0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:25.120 is this is going to be quite graphic, UM, but 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:27.280 of a like skip ahead like a minute or two 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:29.640 if you don't want to, UM of a teacher who 0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:35.199 fed students UM food containing her husband's seamen UM. Her 0:27:35.280 --> 0:27:38.840 husband was a cop and her and her husband again 0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:41.919 who was a cop and the also the leader of 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:46.440 a swatch team UM had raped multiple children um as 0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:49.640 like it had and had had pictures of children UM 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:52.520 and like like both of them were doing this together. 0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:54.840 So like yeah, that's like the leader of swat teams 0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:57.800 like police. Like the fact that like if you if 0:27:57.800 --> 0:27:59.840 you look at the people often doing this type of stuff, 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.840 it's cops a lot of the time, Like the cops 0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:06.760 raped so many UM kids that that they that they 0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:09.760 arrest and detain. It is shocked. Like you you can 0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:12.639 google this every week and you'll find you'll find like 0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:17.680 new reports of it. It is, it is. It is horrific. Um. 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:20.440 And you know, online service providers that have actual knowledge 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:23.720 of an apparent or imminent violation of current laws around 0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:26.520 child sexual beast materials are required to report it or 0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:30.000 they will face legal trouble. Um. Yeah, like you you 0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:32.840 could you can kill people and get in less trouble 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:35.359 with the law. Then then you will get if if 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:38.520 if you intentionally do this stuff like that, there are 0:28:38.560 --> 0:28:40.560 scenarios where you can kill people where you won't get 0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:42.800 in trouble with law. There is no scenario where you 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:46.800 do you you like you you intentionally do like you 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.720 intentionally do this stuff where you will like unless you're 0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:52.360 a cop with like with with the legal protection of 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:56.600 your other cops won't rat you out, like yeah, or 0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:59.920 you're like very very rich, yeah, like you know, un 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:04.160 unless unless you have extra legal protection. Yeah, like you 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:09.000 are fucking going to vanish. So yeah, like we already 0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:10.440 have a lot of stuff to deal with this. And 0:29:10.560 --> 0:29:13.400 the methods proposed by earn Itt would not only chip 0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:16.520 at the last semblance of of of privacy online. But 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:19.760 it would all but it would arguably make actually combating 0:29:19.840 --> 0:29:23.160 real instances of online check of online child abuse a 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:27.160 lot more difficult. It would pressure distributors and abusers um 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:29.720 into harder to find corners of the Internet that don't 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:33.320 fall under big tech companies UM. Plus, the massive increasing 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:36.600 content scanning would produce so many false flags it would 0:29:36.600 --> 0:29:40.040 clog up any effort to find action materials because so 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:42.040 much stuff is gonna get flagged, right, it's gonna you're 0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:44.320 gonna get a wave of so many images that you 0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:46.800 have that you have sort, sort through and figure out 0:29:46.800 --> 0:29:49.440 if the people in it actually are under age because 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:53.000 a lot of people who look thirty and sorry, a 0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:55.160 lot of people that are thirty can also look under 0:29:55.200 --> 0:29:57.560 age sometimes like like with lighting, with the fact like 0:29:57.560 --> 0:30:00.720 it's it is, it will be. It's gonna it's gonna 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:04.640 be such a task um And we can only see 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:07.440 this in effect with new scanning techniques used by Facebook. 0:30:07.600 --> 0:30:10.360 They that have produced millions of reports to law enforcement, 0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:14.400 most of them inaccurate. Um. Of course, federal law enforcement 0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:17.360 use uses this massive number of reports produced by low 0:30:17.400 --> 0:30:20.400 quality scanning software to you know, suggest there's a huge 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:24.000 uptick in these images. Thus, you know, armed with misleading statistics. 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:27.080 The same law enforcement groups make new demands to break 0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:30.160 encryption um or with earn it, to hold companies liable 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:34.000 if they don't scan user content those scanning algorithms, right, 0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:37.360 like you know, okay, this this is an oversimplification, but 0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:41.360 like to to to conceptualize why this is a bad idea, 0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:44.920 like these these are these like this is the this 0:30:45.000 --> 0:30:46.760 is the same stuff that like you know how, you 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:49.120 know how there's there's there's those like trending topics on 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:52.520 Twitter and they'll they'll they'll show you a tweet and 0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:55.080 the tweet will be like I don't know, they'll they'll 0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:57.200 they'll be someone talking about a subway sandwich and it'll 0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:03.320 get like it'll show up under trains. This those are 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:06.640 the algorithms that they want to fucking run the entire 0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:09.400 Internet through. I have seen I have seen some very 0:31:09.520 --> 0:31:13.600 I've seen some very erotic bell peppers um and like 0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:17.240 it's it's gonna like that these things are aren't going 0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:21.760 to be good um And like independent child protection experts 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:25.640 are not asking for systems to read everyone's private messages. Rather, 0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:29.160 they recognize that children, particularly children that might be abused 0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:33.360 or exploited actually need encrypted and private messaging just as much, 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:36.240 if not more than the rest of us. Like, no one, 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:39.400 including the most vulnerable among us, can have privacy or 0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:44.320 security online without strong encryption. UM. And the Earner Act 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:47.720 doesn't really just target big tech. What it does is 0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:51.160 it targets every individual Internet user, treating all of us 0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:54.680 as potential criminals who deserve to have every single message, photograph, 0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:59.120 or document scanned and you know, compared against a government database, 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:03.440 like direct directly to law enforcement. UM And since direct 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:06.520 government surveillance would be you know, blatantly unconstitutional and promote 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:09.680 public outrage, U earn it to use as tech companies, 0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:11.880 you know, from the largest swaps to the smallest ones, 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:15.719 as its tools to kind of bypass that constitutional like 0:32:16.480 --> 0:32:19.880 barrier um because yeah, if you, if you, if you, 0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:22.040 if you, if you hit the touch companies where it hurts, 0:32:22.320 --> 0:32:24.400 they will not allow this type of stuff at all. 0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:26.680 Like and this is also you can you know, you 0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:29.160 cannot deny this is also just part of a larger 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:32.720 effect to ban porn um and just to ban any 0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:34.760 kind of sex work online as well. Like you you 0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:37.480 cannot deny that this is this is this is definitely 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:39.840 an ingrained part of this, particularly with a lot a 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:42.320 lot of its supporters and of course you know Senator 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:46.480 Lindsay Graham appealing to that side of the Republicans. This 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:48.920 is this is a big part of just trying to 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:53.000 you know, remove porn and remove um, you know, any 0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:56.800 not safe work material from being hosted online. So the 0:32:56.840 --> 0:32:59.600 strategy is to get private companies to do the dirty 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:02.160 work of mass surveillance. UM. You know, it's the same 0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:04.640 it's the same tactic that government's tried to use this 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:06.920 year trying to you know, convince Apple to subvert its 0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:10.000 own encryption and scan all of its users photos. Um. 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:12.280 It's the same strategy that the that the UK law 0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:15.160 enforcement is using to convince the British public to give 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:19.160 up their privacy, having spent public money on a laughable 0:33:19.200 --> 0:33:23.440 public publicity campaign that demon as his companies that use encryption. UM. 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:26.720 So that that's really how it's operating. UM. I do 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:30.400 want to shout out, um uh the e f F 0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:33.520 for providing a lot of the kind of research that 0:33:33.560 --> 0:33:37.400 I used for compiling stuff on on this episode. UM, 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:39.920 thank you, thank you, thank you e f F. UM 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:44.960 you often often do good work. That's the Electronic Frontier Foundation. 0:33:45.080 --> 0:33:49.400 They focus a lot on like Internet privacy issues UM 0:33:49.440 --> 0:33:52.480 and I do want to point people to a a 0:33:52.520 --> 0:33:57.560 link tree. It is, uh you know, l I n K, 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:03.240 t R, dot E S stop earn it UM. So, yeah, 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:05.560 you can find different ways to UM. You know, if 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:09.400 you're the type of person that enjoys calling representatives or something, 0:34:09.520 --> 0:34:11.200 it has. It has links for that kind of thing. 0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:15.200 It has links to send you know, automated messages onto 0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:17.759 your representative to vote no on the Internet Act. That 0:34:17.840 --> 0:34:19.160 has too. You know, if if you're the type of 0:34:19.200 --> 0:34:22.400 person that enjoys the signing petitions, UM, it has it 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:24.120 has more info on what earn it is and what 0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:27.600 it does UM and a whole whole bunch of other 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:30.279 stuff around, you know, organizing to help stop this bill. 0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:33.600 There's like discord channels that have people organizing to to 0:34:33.680 --> 0:34:37.040 stop this bill. UM links links forward on that has 0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:40.640 info on like actions you can take UM. So yeah, 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.000 I would uh if if you're interested in like looking 0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:46.200 for the different ways that can maybe you know contribute. 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:48.560 You know, not no single person can make an impact, 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:52.480 but you know enough people, enough people can UM. So yeah, 0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:56.279 that's link tree slash stop earn it um and then 0:34:56.320 --> 0:35:00.920 also again another shout out to the e f F. Yeah, 0:35:01.080 --> 0:35:03.680 I wanted to make don't say two closing things before 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:07.439 we close this up. One if if you think that, 0:35:08.200 --> 0:35:10.479 if you think that once you're handing the entire content 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:12.319 of the Internet over to the government to run through 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:14.160 scanning groups, that the only thing they're ever going to 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:16.719 scan for is child pornography. I have no n f 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:18.640 D to sell you. It is a picture of a bridge. 0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:20.919 Once once you buy this n f T of the bridge, 0:35:20.960 --> 0:35:23.400 you will own the Brooklyn Bridge contact contact me for 0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:28.400 more details. The second thing is that, um, you know, 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:32.239 when when we talk about like when we talk about 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:36.440 anti porn stuff, when we talk about how you know, 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:39.440 the way you get around this is by banning all 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:43.080 one different work content, right the other thing that almost 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:47.479 immediately gets banned. It's inevitably when when when when when 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:51.279 companies for for whatever reason, and this is true just 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:53.719 of of of companies that are trying to comply with 0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:56.960 you know, like the app store or stuff like that, 0:35:57.000 --> 0:35:58.880 like when when when whenever you get target things that 0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:03.240 target not for working, they inevitably, inevitably without failed target 0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:08.400 queer content content literally nothing at all through sexuality, because 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:09.960 that's you know, this is this is, this is this 0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:13.120 has always been like accusing queer people of of being 0:36:13.200 --> 0:36:16.120 child predators has been the attack line on queer people. 0:36:16.440 --> 0:36:18.400 People are always on the front line of all of 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:22.200 this stuff. Yeah, they will always be the first people impacted. 0:36:22.480 --> 0:36:25.600 They will be the first people demonized, even if even 0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:27.320 if even if it's not even not safe for material, 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:28.680 if if it has if it has nothing to do 0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.319 with it, it will still always always be impacted more 0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:34.560 than basically any anyone else. Yeah, I mean we've we've 0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:37.719 been seeing this on YouTube, but constantly lots of lots 0:36:37.719 --> 0:36:40.400 of people who just you know, make trans content clear 0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:44.400 channels always being banned or demonetized, yep marked as a 0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:47.960 belt content Like yeah, it's it's horrifying. And if if 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:50.040 you want an internet, not even just if you want 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:52.600 to Internet that has like sex on it, if you 0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:55.560 want to Internet that has queer people on it, right 0:36:55.840 --> 0:36:59.839 expressing themselves in in in in any way that's not 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:04.560 like literally just it's straight person but you say queer, right, 0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:07.040 if if that's a thing that you think is valuable, 0:37:07.080 --> 0:37:10.000 and if you and if you think that you know, 0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:11.840 it is important for core people to be able to 0:37:11.880 --> 0:37:15.399 express themselves for their own health and safety. Like you 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:20.239 have to oppost this, yes, you absolutely. Um. I guess 0:37:20.480 --> 0:37:22.719 what one final thing I'll add because they know someone 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:26.040 will probably message me about it. Um. There is a 0:37:26.080 --> 0:37:29.759 slight opinion piece by somebody saying that this bill would 0:37:29.800 --> 0:37:33.200 actually let child abusers walk free because they could use 0:37:33.239 --> 0:37:37.000 the fact that this bill essentially, um, you know, compels 0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:40.640 companies to do scanning software via via government like mandate 0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:44.279 because of this bill. They would that because because in 0:37:44.320 --> 0:37:47.600 their mind, this could possibly violate the Fourth Amendment to 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:50.960 this would allow abusers, um, the evidence that they is 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:54.480 collected to prosecute abusers to become invalid in court. So 0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:56.399 this would actually also make the this would just make 0:37:56.400 --> 0:37:59.640 this would make the bill um uh, you know, actually 0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:01.919 make people walk free. I do not agree with this take. 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:03.640 I don't think that's how it would work out at all, 0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:05.600 because especially for you know, you can use this for 0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:07.880 like political organizing. You can use this for a lot 0:38:07.920 --> 0:38:09.279 of like you can use this same argument for a 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:11.520 lot of cases, and it never works out that way 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:15.480 because the government does not care about that sort of thing. Um, 0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:18.200 it's it's it's not. That's not how it works. Um. 0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:21.280 I mean the things that get violated like in theory 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:26.400 that does not know that's like they illegally seized you know, 0:38:27.400 --> 0:38:31.640 ten Kazinski's you know, uh like evidence and yeah, you 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.640 know it doesn't it doesn't matter like that's that's that's 0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:37.000 that's that's not gonna matter, because then this bill would 0:38:37.000 --> 0:38:38.800 be seen as a good thing because it would prevent 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:41.640 people from you know, then the encryption wouldn't be necessary 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:44.719 because then none of the evidence that people would you know, 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:48.480 would have gathered would ever be admissible in court. And 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:50.799 that is that they would never design the bill like 0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:53.880 that that that's not that's not the case. I disagree 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:56.080 with this take. So do not send me this article 0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:58.880 saying actually it's going to have this happen, because I 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:02.000 do not believe it. Because this assumes that the government 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:06.719 operates like like coherently and operates like you know, like 0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:09.759 no think the government does does does not care no 0:39:09.920 --> 0:39:14.000 like again, like the First Amendment is superseded by traffic law, 0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:17.879 like you know that you're not going to be able 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:22.120 to use this insistent like this will secretly let abusers 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:25.160 go free. This is not secretly a good thing because 0:39:25.200 --> 0:39:31.440 it will make all evidence inadmissible in court. Bullshit anyway, Anyway, 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:35.640 I'll give a final shout out to the link tree 0:39:36.560 --> 0:39:40.080 link tree slash stop earn it um. That's l I 0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:43.960 n K T dot e er slash stop earn it 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:46.680 um if you're the type of person that likes doing 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:48.520 those types of things. And also it has like links 0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:51.400 like discord channels for other types of organizing beyond you know, 0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:54.160 petitions and calling and senators and sending messages and blah 0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:58.799 blah blah blah blah. Anyway, that's the episode. UM, thank 0:39:58.840 --> 0:40:02.560 you for listening. I just thought, I just thought, this 0:40:02.640 --> 0:40:04.440 is this is this is an important thing enough that 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:06.200 I haven't seen enough. I have not seen enough people 0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:08.479 talking about the Earned Act and the way it does 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:13.239 seriously threatened digital privacy. And because it was approved by 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:16.440 the Senate Judiciary Committee to be pushed forward, um, it 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:19.759 is actually chugging along on the slow legal process, so 0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:22.920 it's gotten further than what it got. So I thought 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:25.759 it was actually worth talking about, um, you know, for 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:28.440 the privacy issues, how it affects queer people, how it 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:31.680 affects sex workers, um, and all all that general thing. 0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:35.480 So yeah, and also I wanted you know, it's very 0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:37.480 easy to feel hopefuls with this kind of stuff, but like, 0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:41.200 we've beaten legislation for I like, one of my one 0:40:41.200 --> 0:40:43.480 of my formative childhood experiences was when was when we 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:46.279 beat when we beat soap, and people like we can 0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:48.759 beat them. It takes it takes a lot, takes a 0:40:48.800 --> 0:40:52.640 lot of mobilization, but yeah, like we we we we 0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:54.879 we I know we can. I know we can beat 0:40:54.920 --> 0:40:58.359 this because we've beaten things like it before. Agreed, all right, 0:40:58.760 --> 0:41:00.640 that nothing for us today. If you to find us 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:04.480 on a currently more secure than what it could be Internet, 0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:08.600 you can follow us on Twitter at cool Zone Media 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:12.160 um and happened here pod. I think apparently Instagram too, 0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:15.319 So that's cool. If you're an Instagram person, good for 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:17.960 you because Twitter Twitter is bad. Um, you can find 0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:22.320 me on Twitter at Hungry about tie Um yeah, find 0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:27.360 me at three you can't. You can, indeed that that 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:43.440 us it for us UM encryption. Hey there, I'm Jess 0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:46.440 Milady Confetti here. Hi, I'm Psyche and I am pay 0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:49.480 Shady Lady And welcome to Boss Level Podcast, where we 0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:52.520 feature conversations with gas Tube leveled up bringing an xp 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:55.359 roost to the table. That was always my response, because 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:58.160 is like I am like a unicorn here right, like 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:00.920 because there's not allowed of like out of the closet 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:05.319 female gamers. I know a lot of them. Like it 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:08.840 was like a battlefield, like this is our cool boys 0:42:08.840 --> 0:42:14.080 club and here no, sorry, Honny, this is a very 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:17.560 dark corner and I'm a lot of light and right. 0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:22.600 We picked the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and 0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:25.600 industries across the globe to help our listeners achieve their 0:42:25.600 --> 0:42:29.040 own boss level. We are not just creating a podcast, 0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:33.160 but a gamified an engaged community. Listen to Boss Level 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:36.040 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever 0:42:36.080 --> 0:42:42.960 you get your podcasts. And we're live here outside the 0:42:43.040 --> 0:42:46.520 Perez family home, just waiting for them. And there they go, 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:49.480 almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming out the 0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:52.360 front door strong with a double arm kid carry. Looks 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:54.799 like dad has the bags daughter he is bringing up 0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:59.160 the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers 0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:04.000 and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed 0:43:04.040 --> 0:43:07.280 the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:09.520 the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.680 ten has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:16.600 the bad clothes and they're off, but looks like Mom 0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:18.919 doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof 0:43:19.000 --> 0:43:23.239 of the car and there it goes. Ah, that's a 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:26.160 shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the 0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:28.799 small stuff, just nailed the big stuff, like making sure 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:30.520 your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for 0:43:30.560 --> 0:43:32.680 their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t s A 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:35.960 dot gov Slash The Right Seat visits h s A 0:43:36.360 --> 0:43:39.359 dot gov Slash the Right Seat. Brought to you by 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:45.120 Mitza and the Ad Council from Cavalry Audio, the studio 0:43:45.239 --> 0:43:47.960 that brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Girls. 0:43:48.440 --> 0:43:52.960 Comes a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Murders. 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:56.480 The local sheriff believes there may be more than one killery. 0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:59.400 It's been four days since those bodies were found, and 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:01.640 there's no stas it this morning. They were afraid to 0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:03.920 face it out in that area. What if they come 0:44:03.920 --> 0:44:06.000 back or whatever. It scared me to death, Like it 0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:09.439 scared me. I was very very intimidating to live here. 0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:11.960 Crazy to think you go to sleep one night, maybe 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:14.600 snuggling with your loved one and never wake up, or 0:44:14.640 --> 0:44:16.480 maybe you wake up in a struggle for your life, 0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:19.960 which you lose. Joint host David Radoman as he explores 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:23.600 one fateful night when evil descended upon small town, Ohio 0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:26.759 killed eight members of an Ohio family in a pre 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.320 planned execution. The family was targeted, most of them targeted 0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:34.000 while they were sleeping. Follow the Pink Moon murders on 0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:37.759 the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you 0:44:37.840 --> 0:44:50.600 get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. Um, obviously, 0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.319 as I'm sure everyone is being bombarded with. The war 0:44:53.400 --> 0:44:57.160 in Ukraine, is UH in its fifth day right now 0:44:57.239 --> 0:45:01.759 something like that, Um, we just passed ninety six hours. 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:05.000 By some accounts, more than three hundred thousand people have 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:08.200 been made refugees. Those are going to be very in 0:45:08.280 --> 0:45:11.800 exact numbers, but it's it's likely to be somewhere between 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:14.680 like fifty and a hundred thousand people per day being 0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:17.279 made refugees, and it's possible that's gonna last for the 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:21.160 foreseeable future. Much of the coverage that you will have 0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:24.560 seen at this point, UM is going to focus on 0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:28.120 heroic pieces of of of resistance. You know, things that 0:45:28.239 --> 0:45:32.080 Ukrainian civilians picking up arms, throwing molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers 0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:35.719 destroying Russian armored columns. Some of that's going to be 0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:38.279 a propaganda, some of that A decent amount of that's 0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:41.200 actually happening. Obviously, we have a fair amount of documentation, 0:45:41.360 --> 0:45:44.160 but what I think has not gotten nearly as much 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:47.600 play is the situation at the border of Ukraine and 0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:53.680 Poland um because this refugee crisis is enormous, but it's 0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:56.520 also not sexy and it points to a number of 0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:58.680 things that are ugly about some of the stuff that 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:01.200 people like to celebrate. This con concluding the conduct of 0:46:01.200 --> 0:46:05.160 President Zelinsky, who is I think handled himself objectively well 0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:07.279 as a wartime leader, and who is also, as you'll 0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:09.480 hear in the interview that's about to follow, made some 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:12.240 decisions that have had a catastrophic impact on people's lives. 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:16.120 So this is an interview conducted by a journalist H. 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:19.320 James Stout, who is working with us on this project 0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:22.640 and with another project that will be launching soon, with 0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:27.560 a person, an individual an American who was well as 0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:30.799 a couple of different passports, but with a person who 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:34.520 was in Ukraine when the invasion began and left and 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:37.760 eventually wound up leaving on foot with tens of thousands 0:46:37.880 --> 0:46:41.759 of other people for the Polish border. So this is 0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:43.880 a story of what it is like to flee a 0:46:43.920 --> 0:46:46.879 country at the beginning of a war, um and and 0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:49.960 the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians are going to 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:55.520 be facing every single day. So please listen there, Hey, manny, 0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:59.359 how are you? I'm doing well? How are you good? 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:03.360 Goods very to keep you up later period exhausted, No, No, 0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:06.080 it's okay, it's okay. Um. I actually just arrived at 0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:09.440 a new hostel in New City, UM, and I'm going 0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:11.200 to be up for a couple more hours anyway, so 0:47:11.239 --> 0:47:13.600 it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great, do you 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:17.360 mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool, excellent, and 0:47:17.800 --> 0:47:19.680 let me explain what we're going to do. So I'm 0:47:20.320 --> 0:47:24.680 I'm bringing a piece for NBC on the the refugee 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:28.520 situation that's emerging, and then I'm also helping to make 0:47:28.520 --> 0:47:32.319 a podcast for I Heart Radio about a similar thing. 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:34.480 So it's okay with you. We'll use the audio for 0:47:34.600 --> 0:47:38.440 one and then some of your words for another. Absolutely, 0:47:38.440 --> 0:47:40.759 how is my audio coming through it's great. Actually, it's 0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:43.160 really really good. But you wanted to telephone or you 0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:46.000 on a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I 0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:48.480 don't have a computer with mechical. Now you're doing really well. 0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:51.160 If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record 0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:54.240 it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording. 0:47:55.960 --> 0:47:59.239 So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a 0:47:59.280 --> 0:48:04.560 pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. And so if we 0:48:04.840 --> 0:48:10.120 go back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah, 0:48:10.160 --> 0:48:12.560 So I was in Kiev a few days ago. I 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:16.799 was in Kiev eight days ago. Um, and then I 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:21.120 went to Leviv four days ago. Okay. And had you 0:48:21.160 --> 0:48:24.120 been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:26.279 been I've been in Ukraine or I had been in 0:48:26.400 --> 0:48:29.200 Ukraine in total for one week, okay, so you know 0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:33.480 that long. And you so you rand in Kiev, you 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:36.920 went to Leviv. Can you remember, like where you were 0:48:37.000 --> 0:48:40.440 when you found out that the invasion was happening and 0:48:40.440 --> 0:48:42.120 that it was going to go past don Bass and 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:46.080 into Ukraine. Yeah, of course. So I woke up on 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:48.759 the morning of twenty four February to the sound of 0:48:48.800 --> 0:48:51.520 air raid sirens outside, and it was a very confusing sound. 0:48:51.560 --> 0:48:53.000 I had never heard it right, so I was in 0:48:53.000 --> 0:48:55.040 real life. I just heard them in movies and television 0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:57.880 shows and such, and I knew immediately what had happened. 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:01.440 I didn't even have to check the news, um. And 0:49:01.680 --> 0:49:04.759 I did check the news soon afterward, and there were 0:49:04.800 --> 0:49:07.680 bombings all over the country. There were reports of bombings 0:49:07.680 --> 0:49:10.239 in a Banda front Kiss, which is a city on 0:49:10.680 --> 0:49:13.600 KOs south of le Viv, where I was, and there 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:16.080 were so many rumors flying around. There were rumors that 0:49:16.120 --> 0:49:18.400 the Russians were coming coming to Leviv at that moment, 0:49:18.520 --> 0:49:20.360 which was not the case but can still be the 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:24.200 case very soon. Anyway, So we heard I heard these 0:49:24.239 --> 0:49:27.360 these air raids sirens as I woke up, and I 0:49:27.400 --> 0:49:31.080 shook away my roommate, who was a British journalist UM, 0:49:31.160 --> 0:49:34.040 and I told him we might be bombed any minute. 0:49:34.800 --> 0:49:37.240 So we went outside to try and find a shelter. 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:41.200 UM pretty much still in our nightclothes. We went outside 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:44.960 to try and find a shelter, and they were loudspeakers saying, uh, 0:49:45.160 --> 0:49:49.520 everybody remained calm, fine shelter helped the elderly stockpile water, 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:52.920 and it was repeating this unrepeat and people were shuffling along. 0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:55.759 There was a sense of muted panic. So it was 0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:59.120 an outright panic, but it was a sense of urgency 0:49:59.120 --> 0:50:01.920 I guess you could call it it. And um, we 0:50:01.960 --> 0:50:05.120 were at war and that was when I realized that 0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:10.359 Ukraine was being invaded at that very moment. Wow, yeah, 0:50:10.560 --> 0:50:13.560 it sounds dramatic. And at that point you went to 0:50:13.640 --> 0:50:16.439 the shelter, I'm guessing, so did you spend some time 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:19.879 then before making a decision to head to polent So 0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:22.800 after about fifteen minutes, the air rates I would stopped. 0:50:23.160 --> 0:50:25.840 The news generally came around the city that Lviv was 0:50:25.920 --> 0:50:30.160 not about to be bombed, but nevertheless, massive exodus of 0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:33.520 people began from Lviv at that moment. Because okay, we're 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:35.680 safe for now, but for how long are we safe? 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:40.520 Was the general sentiment that was around. So, Um, everybody 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:43.640 just started making for the train station, the bus station, 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:47.480 They got in their cars. People were just leaving. There 0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:49.200 were huge lines at the A T. M. S. There 0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:53.080 were huge lines at the grocery stores. People were buying 0:50:53.080 --> 0:50:57.080 no perishables. Um, it was just not a panic full 0:50:57.120 --> 0:50:59.440 out I would call it, but it was an urgent departure. 0:50:59.480 --> 0:51:02.160 It was an an exodus that was happening, and so 0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:04.920 me and my roommate we went to the train station, 0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:07.680 waited in the line for two hours to see if 0:51:07.680 --> 0:51:10.080 there were tickets. There were no tickets. We went to 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:11.920 the bus station. We waited in the line for one 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:14.320 hour to see if there were tickets. There were no tickets, 0:51:15.280 --> 0:51:17.919 um and so then we started to get a little 0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:20.440 worried because it was noon on the day of the invasion. 0:51:21.040 --> 0:51:23.840 Russian forces were everywhere in the country. Of our bombings 0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:26.400 everywhere in the country, and we had to leave, and 0:51:26.400 --> 0:51:30.160 there was no viable means to leave. The airport was closed. 0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:32.760 Of course, the airport was being bombed a few hours later. 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:38.520 Um and so we tried to look into car higher. 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:39.880 We tried to see if we could rent a car. 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:41.319 We tried to see if we could take an Uber 0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:43.520 or a lift or a blah black car, which is 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:47.040 the Ukrainian version of Uber, and none of those options 0:51:47.040 --> 0:51:50.480 were available. Because everybody was thinking the same thing and 0:51:51.480 --> 0:51:56.160 in a sense of almost resigned to spare, we decided 0:51:56.440 --> 0:51:58.680 that it would be best to just start walking last 0:51:58.840 --> 0:52:01.919 and see what happened. And it was around noon when 0:52:01.960 --> 0:52:07.200 we began to walk west. Wow. UM so when you 0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:09.440 you set off to walk, did you just sort of 0:52:09.440 --> 0:52:11.680 take what you could carry and that's sort of what 0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:13.600 most people were doing, or did you get the sense 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:16.080 that at least the people were like preparing for a 0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:19.280 long period of time away when they left. The people 0:52:19.520 --> 0:52:21.839 certainly were not preparing for a long period of time away. 0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:24.759 The people were not preparing for war. Um For the 0:52:24.840 --> 0:52:27.880 longest time, President z of Lynski and the Ukrainian government 0:52:27.880 --> 0:52:31.200 maintained that there would be no war. They called indications 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:36.160 of war alarmists, they called them ludicrous. And uh, it 0:52:36.280 --> 0:52:38.880 was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody 0:52:38.880 --> 0:52:40.480 sort of woke up and said there's going to be 0:52:40.520 --> 0:52:43.280 a war. So I remember the last day before the invasion. 0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:45.640 People were getting ready, people were waiting at the A 0:52:45.680 --> 0:52:47.880 T m s. People were buying groceries, people were packing. 0:52:48.280 --> 0:52:50.719 But it was not before before that time nobody was 0:52:50.719 --> 0:52:57.600 getting ready for the war. And so when the war struck, everybody, uh, 0:52:57.760 --> 0:53:00.680 everybody just sort of left hastily. And it is a 0:53:00.800 --> 0:53:04.280 terrifying departure, of a sudden and terrifying departure because people 0:53:04.280 --> 0:53:06.200 didn't know what to do and they just sort of 0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:08.799 grabbed what they had and they ran. Luckily for me 0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:11.400 in my roommate, we were traveling with you know, just 0:53:11.480 --> 0:53:16.239 one pack or so because we were not living in Ukraine, um, 0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:18.000 and so we were able to just carry what we 0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:21.200 had on our backs. Yeah, so he told me through 0:53:21.239 --> 0:53:24.000 that wook then it's I think that's sortays like forty 0:53:24.000 --> 0:53:27.400 three miles is a right, that's that's right. So we 0:53:27.440 --> 0:53:29.520 did take a municipal bus a little bit of the way, 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:31.279 which are from municipal bus. I believe it was five 0:53:31.360 --> 0:53:34.200 kilometers down the road road, um. Five kilometers being like 0:53:34.239 --> 0:53:37.320 three miles down the road um. And the total distance 0:53:37.360 --> 0:53:40.960 from Lviv to the border is eighty eighty kilometers, sorry 0:53:40.960 --> 0:53:43.799 eighty kilometers, so that really did not make a dent 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:46.600 at all in the distance. And it was noon when 0:53:46.640 --> 0:53:51.400 we started, and we knew for a fact that um, 0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:53.840 that we would not make it before nightfall. And we 0:53:53.920 --> 0:53:56.719 knew that and we were terrified at that. So at 0:53:56.719 --> 0:54:00.000 first we walked along the countryside was picturesque, it was beautiful. 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:04.600 It was indistinguishable from holiday during springtime. There was a 0:54:04.600 --> 0:54:08.080 fair fair, weather was sunny, um, and no one could 0:54:08.120 --> 0:54:09.880 even tell that the nation was at war. There was 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:14.040 really nobody else walking on the road besides us in 0:54:14.080 --> 0:54:18.239 the beginning and the first twenty kilometers, I would say, um. 0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:22.840 And then we started seeing long lines of the petrol stations. 0:54:23.200 --> 0:54:26.600 Every everywhere was out of gas. There nobody had gas. UM. 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:29.680 There was just no ability to fuel cars. And as 0:54:29.719 --> 0:54:34.080 a consequence of that, UM, cars were running out of 0:54:34.080 --> 0:54:36.279 gas and they were being abandoned on the side of 0:54:36.280 --> 0:54:40.080 the road, which caused further traffic pile ups, and soon 0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:46.320 the road was impenetrable to vehicles. UM. And so because 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:49.240 of this, everybody started getting out of their cars and walking. 0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:51.920 And so these families who had planned to escape u 0:54:51.960 --> 0:54:55.160 Crane to Poland in their cars and carry their lives 0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:57.239 with them were suddenly faced with the hard decision of 0:54:57.280 --> 0:55:00.520 taking what they could carry with them. Yeah, that just terrible. 0:55:00.560 --> 0:55:03.440 That sounds really difficult. And I'm sure you saw like 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:06.520 older folks and younger people as well, with people sort 0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:10.399 of and struggling to that's a long walk, right, It's 0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:12.640 not a walk and everyone could do it, must be 0:55:12.719 --> 0:55:15.480 very dear. It's a difficult walk for a young man, 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:19.520 and many old women and little children under the age 0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:22.800 of five or forced on this march because there really 0:55:22.840 --> 0:55:25.239 was no other option for them. It was either go 0:55:25.360 --> 0:55:29.200 back to Ukraine and risk being bombed, risk being under 0:55:30.000 --> 0:55:32.879 Russian occupation, or it was get out of your car 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:36.160 and walk in the wintertime with no food or water, 0:55:36.280 --> 0:55:41.360 no toilet, four fifty miles. And it was just this 0:55:41.520 --> 0:55:44.160 nightmare scenario because all these people were on the road. 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:46.640 There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't negotiate the mud. 0:55:46.680 --> 0:55:51.200 There were mothers with strollers who couldn't get get the 0:55:51.280 --> 0:55:55.160 children um out, and the children were crying, and the 0:55:55.239 --> 0:55:57.200 children were asking why are we here, what it will 0:55:57.239 --> 0:55:59.520 be doing? Why didn't we have to leave home and 0:55:59.560 --> 0:56:04.520 stand walk fifty miles in the middle of winter um 0:56:04.560 --> 0:56:06.719 And the old people were sort of resigned to it. 0:56:06.800 --> 0:56:10.680 They There was one old woman I passed too, was 0:56:11.040 --> 0:56:13.600 using a cane and she was hobbling along jade a backpack, 0:56:13.760 --> 0:56:16.080 and I asked her where are you going, because we 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:17.879 were a part we were a long long way from 0:56:17.880 --> 0:56:21.520 the border, and she said, I'm going to Poland, very simply. 0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:25.279 It was a very matter of fact, um statement. And 0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:27.880 so these people walked with a sense of duty and 0:56:27.880 --> 0:56:31.600 a sense of urgency and um it was just a 0:56:31.680 --> 0:56:35.000 very tragic humanitarian scene. Yeah, I can imagine. And that 0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:37.680 was a major that was a major route that you're on, right, 0:56:37.760 --> 0:56:41.120 like a major road that just become impossible. It wasn't 0:56:41.120 --> 0:56:43.399 one of the bigger highways, but it was I believe 0:56:43.440 --> 0:56:46.280 the M eleven, the Ukrainian M eleven and it runs 0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:48.680 east to west throughout the country, and uh, yeah, it's 0:56:48.719 --> 0:56:53.120 one of the major roads and it had become completely clogged. Yeah. 0:56:53.480 --> 0:56:58.560 So on arrival in Impoland or owed the border. And 0:56:59.400 --> 0:57:05.040 I understand that there's some men like broadly defined as 0:57:05.120 --> 0:57:08.560 like military age eighteen to sixty, I think allowed us 0:57:08.560 --> 0:57:11.359 and leave because they they have they have to stay 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:14.040 in it and enlist. Is that right? Did you see? Yes? 0:57:14.360 --> 0:57:16.760 The border was absolutely the worst part. For that reason. 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:19.120 About five kilometers from the border. At the end of 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:21.400 our walk, we were feeling relieved. We were feeling like, 0:57:21.600 --> 0:57:26.080 finally we've made it. Ukrainian military patrols started walking by 0:57:26.240 --> 0:57:29.680 and driving by and announcing through loud speakers and announcing 0:57:29.680 --> 0:57:35.720 with their own voices, Um, all men must stay. All 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:38.600 men between the ages of eighteen and sixty have to stay. 0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:41.800 Get out of line now. And so the fathers naturally asked, 0:57:41.800 --> 0:57:43.200 because there were a lot of fathers who were there 0:57:43.200 --> 0:57:45.360 to protect their families, to safeguard their families, and to 0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:48.880 provide for their families. Uh. These fathers asked, how about us, 0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:51.760 we have we have little children, We have children under 0:57:51.800 --> 0:57:53.880 the age of five. How are we supposed to provide 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:56.640 for them if you conscript us? Right here? The Ukrainian 0:57:56.720 --> 0:57:59.440 Army did not care. They pulled them away physically from 0:57:59.480 --> 0:58:02.680 their family. There were a lot of tears. There was 0:58:02.720 --> 0:58:04.880 a lot of crying. There were a lot of hurried goodbyes. 0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:11.480 Brothers left sisters, mothers left, husbands, um, lovers left each other. 0:58:11.600 --> 0:58:16.840 People people just left. It was terrifying to watch. Um. Yeah, 0:58:16.960 --> 0:58:20.439 all these men were conscripted immediately into the army. Yeah, 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:23.240 I can imagine. And what people at that point like 0:58:23.880 --> 0:58:25.760 it seems like that were ready to be stoic. Up 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.920 to that point, were people sort of resisting that, like 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:31.840 just what they like, sort of sad but resigned to 0:58:31.920 --> 0:58:34.480 it was Maure that was that. Well, that was when 0:58:34.480 --> 0:58:38.080 the panic began, because everybody was sad but resigned to 0:58:38.080 --> 0:58:41.360 their faith of walking to Poland. But nobody was prepared 0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:44.360 for losing all the men. Um. So when all the 0:58:44.360 --> 0:58:47.160 men were lost, when all the men were taken forcibly, 0:58:47.240 --> 0:58:49.600 and this was public. Everybody could see these men being 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:53.280 yanked from their families. People first started yelling at the 0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:58.160 soldiers that didn't do anything obviously, um, and they were 0:58:58.200 --> 0:59:00.520 they were so angry at the soldiers and soldiers were 0:59:00.560 --> 0:59:04.240 didn't care. Um. And then panic began because people realized, 0:59:04.320 --> 0:59:07.000 oh my god, this this person who was here with us, 0:59:07.040 --> 0:59:09.720 who was a travel companion, who's a relative, now we 0:59:09.800 --> 0:59:12.080 have to leave without him. And even more, he's going 0:59:12.120 --> 0:59:14.640 to the front now and he is in great danger 0:59:14.840 --> 0:59:19.000 at the front. So people began pushing, they began shoving, 0:59:19.400 --> 0:59:23.600 they began being rude to one another. Um. There there 0:59:23.680 --> 0:59:26.520 was no sense of empathy among the people at all 0:59:26.600 --> 0:59:28.480 because it was a panic to get across the border 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:32.880 at that point. Um. So there were people fainting, uh, 0:59:32.920 --> 0:59:35.920 and that was really just overlooked. The people who fainted 0:59:35.960 --> 0:59:39.360 were sort of dragged to the side and left there. 0:59:39.480 --> 0:59:41.960 And I think they they made it. I don't know 0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:44.200 if they made it out, Okay, they certainly didn't die. 0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:47.600 But there were people who were fainting. There are people 0:59:47.680 --> 0:59:51.280 who were sobbing there or people who were hyperventilating. There 0:59:51.320 --> 0:59:54.000 was vomiting going on it was just this sense of 0:59:54.120 --> 0:59:57.760 absolute human panic as people just tried to escape in 0:59:57.800 --> 1:00:00.200 the last in the last five kilometers and especially in 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:04.720 the last was the very worst. So, yeah, terrible thing 1:00:04.760 --> 1:00:06.800 to see if you hadn't say you stay in touch. 1:00:06.880 --> 1:00:10.720 He's one of the lads who was conscripted, right, Yes, 1:00:11.200 --> 1:00:16.520 that that was a development from tonight. So while we 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:20.160 were walking about, this was about fifteen kilometers out from 1:00:20.160 --> 1:00:23.960 the border, we met a young Ukrainian man, UM and 1:00:24.040 --> 1:00:25.880 we just got to talking to him because, I mean 1:00:26.000 --> 1:00:28.200 we could relate to him. We were about I'm about 1:00:28.200 --> 1:00:31.960 the same age as him, um, and so I we 1:00:31.960 --> 1:00:33.680 were just like sort of talking about our lives and 1:00:33.680 --> 1:00:35.360 it was almost as if the war wasn't going on. 1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:39.600 And then we got to these army checkpoints, um, and 1:00:39.640 --> 1:00:41.760 they started calling all the men you have to you 1:00:41.800 --> 1:00:46.400 have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh, 1:00:46.440 --> 1:00:48.040 I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight 1:00:48.040 --> 1:00:50.480 in this war. And you tried to, you know, sort of, um, 1:00:51.080 --> 1:00:53.360 stay with us. Because we were foreigners, we were not 1:00:53.760 --> 1:00:56.439 we were not eligible to be conscripted. So he sort 1:00:56.480 --> 1:00:58.680 of tried to stay with us. He was he was 1:00:58.720 --> 1:01:02.680 a student, he was trying not to fight in this 1:01:02.760 --> 1:01:04.520 war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a 1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:10.320 girlfriend who who was traveling with U, and so we 1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:12.560 we were walking with him and I said, hey, do 1:01:12.600 --> 1:01:15.200 you want to do an interview? He said sure, UM, 1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:17.400 and I started talking to him on camera and then 1:01:17.400 --> 1:01:19.600 the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey, 1:01:19.640 --> 1:01:23.160 you get out of line. And UM, he said, I'm sorry, 1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:25.520 I have to go, and he just gave me this look, 1:01:25.600 --> 1:01:29.560 like this despairing look, and he went with the soldier. UM. 1:01:30.200 --> 1:01:34.200 The two days later today tonight, he messaged me on 1:01:34.240 --> 1:01:37.200 Instagram and he said, because we by the way, we 1:01:37.240 --> 1:01:39.880 had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um. He 1:01:39.920 --> 1:01:43.720 messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I saw 1:01:43.760 --> 1:01:46.840 that you mentioned me in uh in your Twitter because 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:49.400 I told him about the Twitter as well. UM, and 1:01:49.440 --> 1:01:52.760 he said, just letting you know I'm safe, uh in Viv. 1:01:52.840 --> 1:01:56.040 I'm not in the east fighting the Russians. Um. I 1:01:56.040 --> 1:01:58.680 am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is 1:01:58.920 --> 1:02:03.320 my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he 1:02:03.360 --> 1:02:07.560 would otherwise be in the East, but UM, I'm not sure. 1:02:08.000 --> 1:02:09.560 I just know that he was safe right now. And 1:02:09.560 --> 1:02:13.000 he confirmed that he was safe okay, So so yeah, 1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:15.760 you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's 1:02:15.800 --> 1:02:18.840 in some rearrestual role or if he's managed to get 1:02:18.840 --> 1:02:20.320 out of it. To hihow, I know that he has 1:02:20.360 --> 1:02:22.720 managed to escape the brunt of the hiding with the Russians, 1:02:22.720 --> 1:02:26.280 that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, but it's 1:02:26.280 --> 1:02:28.600 still a terrible thing to have to do with. So 1:02:29.560 --> 1:02:32.040 it's my understanding. It's that visa. There's visa free entry 1:02:32.040 --> 1:02:34.400 into Poland right now, Is that right? That people can 1:02:34.440 --> 1:02:37.520 walk aggressive? Yes, The entry into Poland was an absolute 1:02:37.520 --> 1:02:40.080 priest compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why, 1:02:40.480 --> 1:02:42.280 but you have to wait in a long line in 1:02:42.400 --> 1:02:45.040 Ukraine for an exit piece, just for permission to leave 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:46.960 the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the 1:02:47.000 --> 1:02:51.080 worst part because they were only letting ten people out 1:02:51.200 --> 1:02:53.640 every twenty minutes. That ten people get an icon visa 1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:56.200 every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand 1:02:56.240 --> 1:02:59.160 people at the border with US, and so that's that's 1:02:59.160 --> 1:03:01.720 where this panic is because every time they opened that 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:04.240 gate every twenty minutes, and by the way, this is 1:03:04.360 --> 1:03:07.080 like two in the morning in the cold weather, and 1:03:07.160 --> 1:03:11.400 people are as I mentioned crying, vomiting, fainting, um. And 1:03:11.440 --> 1:03:14.280 so every time they opened that gate, there was a 1:03:14.360 --> 1:03:17.400 human crush to get to that gate, and it closed 1:03:17.400 --> 1:03:18.800 it and they forced the people back, and then it 1:03:18.880 --> 1:03:20.720 was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And this 1:03:20.800 --> 1:03:23.480 happened all night long. Um. And this was literally just 1:03:23.520 --> 1:03:25.800 to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous, 1:03:25.800 --> 1:03:31.240 it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert 1:03:31.280 --> 1:03:35.800 from your question, but it's very interesting. Poland was extremely 1:03:35.840 --> 1:03:38.920 easy to enter. There was no visa process. They understood. 1:03:39.160 --> 1:03:42.320 They let us through. I think they just barely looked 1:03:42.320 --> 1:03:46.200 at our passports. Um. So yeah, it was it was easy. 1:03:46.520 --> 1:03:49.400 Were you at that point, like obviously had no plans 1:03:50.000 --> 1:03:52.080 or places to go? So the could day house you 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:54.520 with some kind of refugee housing that they put you in. 1:03:55.800 --> 1:03:58.240 Uh not when I was there, Um, they did do that. 1:03:58.240 --> 1:04:01.400 They did implement that about twelve hours after I arrived. Um. 1:04:01.400 --> 1:04:05.120 But when I arrived, we were greeted immediately pretty much 1:04:05.160 --> 1:04:09.520 right out of the border facility with donuts and tea. Um. 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:11.000 And so they gave us donuts, they gave us a 1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:13.920 te um, and then they said, hey, there's a bus 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:17.439 to Premisshill, which is the city about fifteen kilometers west 1:04:17.440 --> 1:04:20.280 of the border, um where all the refugees are gathering. 1:04:20.320 --> 1:04:22.000 And they said there's a bus the Premiership at least 1:04:22.000 --> 1:04:25.440 every fifteen minutes, and we got on that bus um 1:04:25.480 --> 1:04:27.760 and then we end up. We arrived in Premiershill, and 1:04:27.840 --> 1:04:30.680 at that time refugees were responsible for their own accommodation. 1:04:31.320 --> 1:04:34.280 We managed to book a room in a hotel with 1:04:34.640 --> 1:04:38.640 eight other refugees UM in the room. Uh. And so 1:04:38.680 --> 1:04:41.320 I was sleeping in this this room with eight other refugees. 1:04:41.680 --> 1:04:43.520 They didn't want to talk to me. They were kind 1:04:43.520 --> 1:04:47.480 of despondent. They lost everything and so they were just 1:04:47.680 --> 1:04:51.000 very sad the entire time that I was there. But 1:04:51.920 --> 1:04:55.120 to answer your question about housing real quick, uh, about 1:04:55.160 --> 1:04:57.720 twelve hours after we arrived, they began setting up tents 1:04:57.760 --> 1:04:59.680 for the refugees and that is where many of the 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:02.920 refuge us are living. Now. Okay, it's that you know 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:05.040 that's a Polish government or the Red Cross or is 1:05:05.080 --> 1:05:08.840 that citizens to Poland. I have no idea which organization 1:05:08.880 --> 1:05:10.440 did that, but I can tell you that I did 1:05:10.440 --> 1:05:13.520 not see a single Red Cross or United Nations representative 1:05:13.520 --> 1:05:16.440 while I was in Poland. Okay, interesting, Yeah, they can 1:05:16.480 --> 1:05:20.320 be sometimes a little slow to react. Yeah, yeah, okay, 1:05:20.400 --> 1:05:24.120 So you then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able 1:05:24.160 --> 1:05:26.600 to really talk to the people there, which understandable. They 1:05:26.640 --> 1:05:29.600 probably had a very very difficult twenty four hours and 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:32.600 we all have had. Yeah, I mean, no talking was 1:05:32.640 --> 1:05:36.000 being had pretty much. Did you get a sense when 1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:39.720 as you met the people walking there crossing the border, 1:05:39.760 --> 1:05:43.200 et cetera, where people did they have plans to be 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:46.080 gone from Ukraine? Were they thinking where can I stay 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:48.680 for a long period of time? Were they thinking I'm 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:53.560 going to wait this out in Poland? And see? Um? 1:05:53.600 --> 1:05:57.080 I was pleasantly surprised that a good half of the 1:05:57.080 --> 1:05:59.720 people that I spoke to in that in that convoy, 1:05:59.720 --> 1:06:04.080 in the refugee caravan had relatives either in Poland or 1:06:04.160 --> 1:06:07.680 elsewhere in Europe. Um, and so they were all they 1:06:07.680 --> 1:06:11.160 had all called their relatives and they had arranged them 1:06:11.200 --> 1:06:15.320 to go to Western Europe and meet the relatives. Okay, yes, 1:06:15.320 --> 1:06:18.560 and they've got a place and they're planning to at least. However, 1:06:18.760 --> 1:06:22.360 another half of them have no plans whatsoever, and they're terrified. 1:06:22.600 --> 1:06:24.760 And those are the refugees that I stayed with the 1:06:24.760 --> 1:06:27.480 hotel last night. Um is that they're terrified and they 1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:30.200 have no place to go. Yeah, right, and no one's 1:06:30.200 --> 1:06:34.840 really provided them with one yet. And yeah, that's difficult, 1:06:34.840 --> 1:06:37.720 and it seems like I have to be interesting to 1:06:37.760 --> 1:06:40.200 see how the United States three acts because it hasn't 1:06:40.200 --> 1:06:44.200 really done very much so far. Um, it's amazing. I 1:06:44.280 --> 1:06:46.880 heard that the reason I crossed at that place rather 1:06:46.960 --> 1:06:49.400 than any other places that I heard that the U. S. 1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:51.080 Army was there and I did not see the U. 1:06:51.160 --> 1:06:52.720 S Army and I searched for them and I did 1:06:52.720 --> 1:06:55.880 not find them. So I don't know where the US is. Okay, Yeah, 1:06:55.960 --> 1:06:59.280 you haven't seen any any evidence of like any seeing 1:06:59.440 --> 1:07:03.000 no sort of n POS or government sort of aid 1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:06.400 for refugees yet. Then it's kind of surprising. As I 1:07:06.480 --> 1:07:09.080 mentioned that, I I haven't seen any U N representative, any 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:14.600 Red Cross representative, any WHO representative. I haven't seen any 1:07:14.760 --> 1:07:18.120 NGO or governmental representatives. I did see, of course Polish 1:07:18.360 --> 1:07:21.320 government representatives at the border, but that was about it, 1:07:21.760 --> 1:07:24.720 right it said from Polish people. Do you get a 1:07:24.760 --> 1:07:30.360 sense of sort of solidarity? How I think talk about 1:07:31.640 --> 1:07:34.640 So it was actually amazing to see. It was heartwarming 1:07:34.680 --> 1:07:37.280 to see. The citizens of Freshman Dell are now swamped. 1:07:37.480 --> 1:07:41.760 Their population has been doubled or tripled by the incoming 1:07:41.920 --> 1:07:46.400 Ukrainian refugees, and yet they are showing great amounts of solidarity. 1:07:46.440 --> 1:07:49.760 I actually attended a solidarity rally today, um where the 1:07:49.760 --> 1:07:52.760 citizens of Freshman Dill got together and they said Ukraine 1:07:52.800 --> 1:07:56.440 is our our brothers and putin us clearly in the wrong, 1:07:57.080 --> 1:07:59.480 and we will stand with them, We will show solidarity 1:07:59.520 --> 1:08:01.240 with them. That was hard for me to say. I 1:08:01.240 --> 1:08:03.320 talked with a few of those Poles at that rally 1:08:03.360 --> 1:08:06.000 and they said, yeah, we knew this was coming and 1:08:06.040 --> 1:08:08.040 we prepared for it, and we're ready to take in 1:08:08.080 --> 1:08:11.160 as many as it is necessary. Yeah, that's really nice 1:08:11.160 --> 1:08:14.320 to herite at least people a sort of showing slidarity 1:08:14.400 --> 1:08:18.080 with each other, in support with each other. And yes, yeah, 1:08:18.200 --> 1:08:20.759 So when you were on your way west, I presume 1:08:20.920 --> 1:08:24.280 that like the conflict didn't catch up with you, right, 1:08:24.320 --> 1:08:26.760 you weren't to be sabject to like in direct fire 1:08:26.840 --> 1:08:30.720 or you see any of that. No, however, there was 1:08:31.680 --> 1:08:35.160 about fifty KOs behind us a bombing. As I mentioned, 1:08:35.720 --> 1:08:38.760 We did not hear it, but there were reports of 1:08:38.840 --> 1:08:40.960 the fighting going on all the time, but it's not 1:08:41.040 --> 1:08:43.599 catch up to us while we were in that while 1:08:43.640 --> 1:08:46.000 we were in that caravan, and um, it would have 1:08:46.000 --> 1:08:48.760 been absolutely terrifying if it had. But I'm glad that 1:08:48.760 --> 1:08:52.320 it did that, right. Yeah. And then so you've been 1:08:52.320 --> 1:08:54.479 there for about a week. Had you previously been doing 1:08:54.520 --> 1:08:59.880 some reporting in Ukraine. I've never done reporting in Ukraine 1:08:59.880 --> 1:09:01.560 but four. But when I came to Ukraine and the 1:09:01.560 --> 1:09:04.519 war had not had started, I was mostly just doing 1:09:04.760 --> 1:09:07.400 interviews with civilians about what they thought about the possibility 1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:09.439 of war, about what they thought about the war, and 1:09:09.520 --> 1:09:12.840 don Bass um most a lot of cultural stuff. It 1:09:12.920 --> 1:09:15.439 was kind of boring. I mean not that not that 1:09:15.479 --> 1:09:19.479 war is interesting or fund but it was not really 1:09:19.760 --> 1:09:21.880 much of a story. Um. So I was just doing 1:09:21.880 --> 1:09:26.240 interviews with people about basic Ukrainian things. And then the 1:09:26.280 --> 1:09:29.280 war found us so right, and it seemed to have 1:09:29.320 --> 1:09:31.200 come as much a shock to them as it did 1:09:31.240 --> 1:09:34.960 to the rest of us. As I mentioned, nobody was 1:09:35.080 --> 1:09:37.880 prepared for war until about twenty four hours before it hit, 1:09:37.920 --> 1:09:40.320 and that's when the Ukrainian government said, yes, there will 1:09:40.320 --> 1:09:43.360 be a war, and everybody began sort of to have 1:09:43.400 --> 1:09:45.960 a sense of urgency about them, right, did you see 1:09:45.960 --> 1:09:50.599 any of the citizen militias and citizens preparing for defense 1:09:50.840 --> 1:09:54.559 the people who decided to stay. Yes, I didn't see 1:09:54.560 --> 1:09:57.400 any of the militias, but I was went into a 1:09:57.520 --> 1:10:01.160 Ukrainian gun shopping Kiev and there was a line almost 1:10:01.160 --> 1:10:04.479 off the door. People were buying guns, um And I 1:10:04.520 --> 1:10:06.960 asked one of the people on the line, why are 1:10:07.000 --> 1:10:09.840 you buying a gun? And he said, if the Russians come, 1:10:10.000 --> 1:10:13.000 I want to be prepared. So a lot of people 1:10:13.000 --> 1:10:16.479 are buying guns privately and chief at least as of 1:10:16.600 --> 1:10:18.760 last week, okay, so that they weren't waiting for the 1:10:18.760 --> 1:10:21.400 government to supply. Then they were supplying themselves with guns. 1:10:21.760 --> 1:10:23.840 I believe. I believe the government's supply was a rather 1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:27.920 um my sudden decision. I don't think the ngraainting people 1:10:27.920 --> 1:10:30.000 were counting on it. And so they were supplying themselves. 1:10:30.400 --> 1:10:33.960 And they're buying like like collashing cough to the rifles 1:10:34.400 --> 1:10:37.679 we talked about rifles. Yeah, you can't buy clashing cobs 1:10:37.720 --> 1:10:39.400 in the gun store. They were buying sort of hunting 1:10:39.479 --> 1:10:43.839 rifles and shotguns. Jesus. Okay, yeah, yeah, really under equipped, 1:10:43.840 --> 1:10:45.519 all right, So they were just prepared to trying to 1:10:45.520 --> 1:10:47.479 get anything they could get their hand zone to look 1:10:47.520 --> 1:10:51.479 after themselves and their families. Yeah, I bought pepper spray. 1:10:52.560 --> 1:10:56.920 Yeah that it in nothing. Yeah, okay, so yeah there 1:10:57.000 --> 1:11:00.200 was there was Did you see like the people well 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:03.519 you walked with with it. Did families tend to leave 1:11:03.560 --> 1:11:06.439 as a whole or did did some folks so say 1:11:06.600 --> 1:11:08.360 I'm going to stay behind and fight, or I'm going 1:11:08.400 --> 1:11:10.599 to stay behind to stay and look after a house 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:14.240 and you should leave. Did you get into that the 1:11:14.320 --> 1:11:17.200 vast majority of people traveling were families as a whole. 1:11:17.240 --> 1:11:21.040 There were very few single travelers or partial families traveling. 1:11:21.040 --> 1:11:23.360 It was I think that people wanted to stick together 1:11:23.439 --> 1:11:25.439 and so it was the vast majority of people traveling 1:11:25.439 --> 1:11:29.600 were families. Okay, yeah, yeah, state or left. Do you 1:11:29.600 --> 1:11:32.000 get a sense of how many people you said about 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:34.360 two thousand people there at the border, like of what 1:11:34.479 --> 1:11:39.040 proportion of the city decided to leave for Poland not 1:11:39.080 --> 1:11:42.519 all the people that the border were from leviv Um. 1:11:42.560 --> 1:11:44.559 A lot of them have been traveling since that morning 1:11:44.640 --> 1:11:51.000 from Kiev, uh and other cities in uh central western Ukraine. Um. So, yeah, 1:11:51.040 --> 1:11:52.479 I was talking to people at the border, and a 1:11:52.479 --> 1:11:53.960 lot of them were from Kiev. A lot of them 1:11:53.960 --> 1:11:57.280 were from zephyr Zisa, I'm pronouncing that wrong. A lot 1:11:57.320 --> 1:12:00.280 of them were from turn of Pill or Ivana, frankisk Um, 1:12:00.439 --> 1:12:06.400 or Odessa, and uh so I would not have any 1:12:06.400 --> 1:12:09.080 sort of conjecture on what percentage of the city. Also, 1:12:09.120 --> 1:12:12.559 it was still pretty early in the crisis, because it 1:12:12.640 --> 1:12:14.599 was still the first day and it was fewer than 1:12:14.880 --> 1:12:17.559 twenty four hours after the invasion began, So I imagine 1:12:17.560 --> 1:12:20.280 the numbers are a lot higher now. When you were 1:12:20.280 --> 1:12:22.960 getting news right, if you were traveling, etcetera, were you 1:12:23.040 --> 1:12:26.840 like on Whatsapple? What people on Twitter? Like? How are 1:12:26.880 --> 1:12:30.840 they getting news of what was happening? Everybody, and absolutely 1:12:30.880 --> 1:12:35.960 everybody was completely dark during the walk. Um because I 1:12:36.000 --> 1:12:39.559 don't know why, but there was no sense of cell reception, 1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:41.720 there was no sense of data reception, there was no 1:12:41.760 --> 1:12:44.920 sense of Internet connection at all during the walk. And 1:12:44.960 --> 1:12:48.360 so everybody I met, we we asked, we asked everybody 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:50.320 we met, do you have any news? And they said no, 1:12:50.560 --> 1:12:53.679 do you have any news? Um, So nobody had any 1:12:53.680 --> 1:12:56.320 news until we got to the border. Some people had news, 1:12:56.840 --> 1:13:00.559 but for about about sixteen hours we were completely in 1:13:00.560 --> 1:13:02.479 the dark about what was going on. And that was 1:13:02.560 --> 1:13:05.759 terrifying because when we left the invasion had just begun 1:13:06.520 --> 1:13:09.559 and we didn't get to be updated on the first 1:13:09.880 --> 1:13:13.760 a half day, so right, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, and 1:13:13.760 --> 1:13:16.000 then on arrival you're faced with this news of this 1:13:16.160 --> 1:13:20.439 like sort of blitzkrieg, all those right of bombing and 1:13:21.280 --> 1:13:24.280 right yes, um, I mean we we saw a little 1:13:24.320 --> 1:13:26.479 bit of it in the morning that day, well when 1:13:26.520 --> 1:13:29.719 we when we started out, um, but it had really 1:13:29.880 --> 1:13:33.400 accelerated and amplified by the time that we arrived. Um. 1:13:33.479 --> 1:13:36.880 And the Ukrainians were absolutely terrified at this because they 1:13:36.880 --> 1:13:40.400 did not realize what happened on such a large scale. Yeah, 1:13:40.400 --> 1:13:43.320 I think very few people did. Okay, imagine if it's 1:13:43.320 --> 1:13:46.400 in your own country, it's petrifying. Were you there when 1:13:46.880 --> 1:13:49.680 the fighting began in the Chernobyl exclusion zone or were 1:13:49.720 --> 1:13:52.760 you in Poland by then? When did the fighting begin 1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:56.320 in Charnel? I believe about twenty four hours after the 1:13:56.360 --> 1:14:01.880 fighting began, big period. I was crossing into Poland twenty 1:14:01.880 --> 1:14:03.840 four hours after the fighting began, period, so I was 1:14:03.840 --> 1:14:06.759 probably crossing into pool and when that fighting began. Okay, 1:14:07.040 --> 1:14:09.200 it's interesting to know, especially how sort of the older 1:14:09.240 --> 1:14:13.519 people or people who have been alive, like the nuclear accidents, 1:14:13.520 --> 1:14:15.559 you know. But I was wondering how they right. I mean, 1:14:15.680 --> 1:14:18.280 I've been talking to plenty of plenty of older people, 1:14:18.520 --> 1:14:21.639 and as I mentioned, the older people especially were resigned 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:24.559 to this because during the Soviet times, during the Cold War, 1:14:24.760 --> 1:14:27.600 this sort of thing was common, um, And so the 1:14:27.600 --> 1:14:29.639 older people knew what was going on, and the younger 1:14:29.640 --> 1:14:33.240 people were the ones who were more panicking. That's interesting. Yeah, 1:14:33.320 --> 1:14:36.400 they said they've been raised with a fear of that. 1:14:36.520 --> 1:14:41.160 I suppose, right. And this happened in nine to like 1:14:42.439 --> 1:14:44.720 this is the biggest refugee crisis since nineteen eight nine, 1:14:44.760 --> 1:14:47.800 because in nineteen eight and nine when all the republics 1:14:47.840 --> 1:14:51.360 fell in the Warsaw Pact, so many people turk to 1:14:51.360 --> 1:14:53.120 the roads, and so the older people were used to 1:14:53.160 --> 1:14:55.439 that kind of thing, um, But as I mentioned, the 1:14:55.479 --> 1:14:59.160 younger people were not so right. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, 1:14:59.280 --> 1:15:02.360 since from reactions, I guess, and it's very young people 1:15:02.360 --> 1:15:06.160 obviously unable to understand what's going on. And beyond that, 1:15:06.160 --> 1:15:09.240 there they're leaving their homes, which is said right, and 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:12.240 especially the little children had no idea what was going on, 1:15:12.760 --> 1:15:15.200 and it was impossible to explain to them. So nobody 1:15:15.240 --> 1:15:18.080 did um and so I can't imagine how terrifying this 1:15:18.200 --> 1:15:20.519 must have been as a child, not knowing why you 1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:23.880 had to walk dozens of hours in the cold carrying 1:15:23.920 --> 1:15:27.080 everything you had. Yeah, it's always the saddest thing to 1:15:27.120 --> 1:15:30.760 see children in those refugee situations when they obviously don't 1:15:30.760 --> 1:15:34.720 know what's going on and didn't do anything wrong and right. Yeah, 1:15:34.760 --> 1:15:37.400 hopefully they're all safe. Hopefully they're in Poland, hopefully they 1:15:37.400 --> 1:15:43.320 can go to safe places. I made several contexts during 1:15:43.360 --> 1:15:45.599 this trip, and as I mentioned, only one of one 1:15:45.600 --> 1:15:47.000 of them has gone back to me, So I hope 1:15:47.000 --> 1:15:49.880 the others get back to me soon. Yeah, that's tough, 1:15:49.960 --> 1:15:51.880 but you've got the sense of everyone since they weren't 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:54.880 turned back. They say they just might be sort of 1:15:56.120 --> 1:15:58.040 not in touch because their phone didn't charged or something 1:15:58.040 --> 1:16:02.439 like that. It's either their phones don't aren't charged, or 1:16:02.479 --> 1:16:04.280 if in the men men's case, they were sent to 1:16:04.320 --> 1:16:08.320 the East, or they're too busy trying to arrange accommodations 1:16:08.400 --> 1:16:11.760 or food for themselves or something. I mean, everybody was 1:16:11.880 --> 1:16:15.719 just very busy trying to survive. So I don't blame 1:16:15.760 --> 1:16:19.240 them if they don't If they don't hop on social media. Yeah, yeah, 1:16:19.320 --> 1:16:22.200 of course, and of course think I did very very 1:16:22.200 --> 1:16:24.560 stressful time for everyone. Did you did you hear of 1:16:24.600 --> 1:16:26.920 anyone who has been sent to the east, either second 1:16:26.960 --> 1:16:29.320 hand or like three people you met people who are 1:16:29.320 --> 1:16:33.120 in the front already. Um, I do not have any 1:16:33.160 --> 1:16:35.479 contacts of anybody who was sent to the East. From 1:16:35.479 --> 1:16:39.439 what I understand, the Ukrainian Army has a strict uh 1:16:40.040 --> 1:16:43.920 communication social media sort of policy, and so none of 1:16:43.960 --> 1:16:46.920 these soldiers that I met one wanted to talk to me. 1:16:47.040 --> 1:16:49.240 I did not talk to any Ukrainian Army soldiers in 1:16:49.320 --> 1:16:52.200 uniform because they had a very strict policy. They could 1:16:52.240 --> 1:16:54.080 not talk to me, and too I could not get 1:16:54.080 --> 1:16:56.840 their contacts for much of the same reason. Okay, so 1:16:56.880 --> 1:16:58.120 they didn't want to talk to you, and I didn't 1:16:58.120 --> 1:16:59.920 want to talk to anyone. They were just looking for now. 1:17:00.400 --> 1:17:02.599 They were just they were very stern and they did 1:17:02.600 --> 1:17:04.200 not want to talk to anybody. So I talked to 1:17:04.479 --> 1:17:08.760 zero soldiers in uniforms during this experience. Okay, yeah, so 1:17:08.800 --> 1:17:11.760 where are you now? You've you've gone further west west, right, 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:15.360 that's right. I took a long bus ride to crack 1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:18.880 Off today. UM, and so I'm crack off Poland Okay, 1:17:19.080 --> 1:17:22.000 how folks deal? Is it different? There being about a 1:17:22.000 --> 1:17:25.280 little bit more distant. I've already talked to a few 1:17:25.280 --> 1:17:28.559 people and uh, well it's a Saturday night. They're going 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:33.559 out to drink, and they they're saying, well, yeah, it's 1:17:33.600 --> 1:17:37.280 it's terrible that this war is happening two fifty miles 1:17:37.880 --> 1:17:40.200 east of us, but what are we supposed to do 1:17:40.200 --> 1:17:42.880 about it? So they're going out and drinking. So it's 1:17:42.880 --> 1:17:46.240 this very detached sense here and crack out. Not the 1:17:46.240 --> 1:17:49.000 same as it was in Freshmanville. Yeah, interesting to people 1:17:49.000 --> 1:17:50.680 are living their normal life and it's just it's a 1:17:50.680 --> 1:17:54.360 news item for them. It's they're not worried about any 1:17:54.400 --> 1:17:59.880 potential spin over a fallout, right, Okay, yeah, they're not worried. 1:18:00.280 --> 1:18:02.800 Nice and well you do you plan to stay there? 1:18:02.920 --> 1:18:06.400 What's what's next to you? So I actually just booked 1:18:06.400 --> 1:18:08.840 a flight uh an hour ago. I'm going to be 1:18:08.880 --> 1:18:12.120 flying back to the States on Marshall first. Okay, great, 1:18:12.200 --> 1:18:14.840 yeah you can. You can come back. And presumably you're 1:18:15.000 --> 1:18:18.519 like your US passport holders, so you could just get 1:18:18.600 --> 1:18:22.720 that's how you got through being conscripted, etcetera. I am not. 1:18:22.840 --> 1:18:25.800 I'm not carrying US passport right now. I'm carrying an 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:30.240 Italian passport um because I'm also a citizen of Italy. 1:18:30.320 --> 1:18:33.040 And I was told before I left by some friends 1:18:33.040 --> 1:18:35.760 in the intelligence community that it would look significantly less 1:18:35.760 --> 1:18:38.439 suspicious to carry a U passport than an US passport. 1:18:38.520 --> 1:18:40.960 So I bought the U passport. Nice. Yeah, and then 1:18:40.960 --> 1:18:45.360 you can travel free D three D yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:48.400 Do you know if Ukrainian people can crebble once? Because 1:18:48.400 --> 1:18:50.600 once they're in Poland, can they then move through the 1:18:50.640 --> 1:18:55.400 Shangan's own freely? Ukraine is not a member of the EU, 1:18:55.600 --> 1:18:57.599 they're not a member of Shangan. I do not believe 1:18:57.600 --> 1:19:01.280 they can move really, right, that's wondering, Like, yeah, they 1:19:01.280 --> 1:19:03.640 would be I don't know how their passports would be 1:19:03.760 --> 1:19:05.919 checked if they're going across some of those land borders 1:19:06.200 --> 1:19:07.920 that I think they I do know that this was 1:19:08.040 --> 1:19:11.559 it was an emergency situation yesterday, and so that's why 1:19:11.640 --> 1:19:13.840 they were just very personally checked. But I'm sure it's 1:19:13.880 --> 1:19:16.160 director usually. Yeah. I wonder what they would be like 1:19:16.200 --> 1:19:19.439 if they tried to exit Poland or if they'll right, 1:19:20.200 --> 1:19:21.960 I don't know what's going to happen to them. No, 1:19:22.200 --> 1:19:24.360 I don't think. I'm guessing there's been no communication of 1:19:24.439 --> 1:19:26.760 that that you've seen, either right leg of what they 1:19:26.760 --> 1:19:29.799 should do or how to apply for asylum or anything 1:19:29.880 --> 1:19:32.680 like that. I have talked to a few people. They 1:19:32.720 --> 1:19:37.360 say that they're banking on these countries being empathetic to refugees, 1:19:37.439 --> 1:19:39.599 and I understand. I think that countries will be empathetic 1:19:39.680 --> 1:19:43.240 to refugees. Yeah, yeah, said, do you certainly hope they will. 1:19:43.960 --> 1:19:47.559 So they're just gonna hope that those countries, the ones 1:19:47.560 --> 1:19:50.160 who don't have a country to go to. You get 1:19:50.160 --> 1:19:52.400 the sense that, yeah, that they'll they'll apply for asylum 1:19:52.439 --> 1:19:56.400 wherever they can find a safe place. That's right. Um, 1:19:56.479 --> 1:19:59.080 And I believe that countries Western European countries that have 1:19:59.160 --> 1:20:02.400 been very vocal of pro Ukraine recently, um, we'll take 1:20:02.439 --> 1:20:05.360 them in. So I think that they'll they'll be safe. Yeah, 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:07.720 that's good to hear. I know. I've seen estimates of 1:20:07.880 --> 1:20:14.240 up to five million refugees, which would be I mean, 1:20:14.280 --> 1:20:17.439 Germany absorbed a million people from Syria, right, it's not Yeah, 1:20:17.479 --> 1:20:19.920 it's not impossible for West European countries do that at all, 1:20:20.800 --> 1:20:23.679 but it will, but it would still be a catastrophic crisis, 1:20:23.720 --> 1:20:27.479 the worse than's Maine, and we have to hope it 1:20:27.800 --> 1:20:29.120 doesn't get to that. Do you get the sense of 1:20:29.120 --> 1:20:31.840 people are still flowing across the border? I know you're 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:34.639 a bit yes, I think for me, I mean it's 1:20:34.680 --> 1:20:37.840 weird because you want to believe that what you experienced 1:20:37.840 --> 1:20:41.000 and what the people around you've experienced was a one 1:20:41.000 --> 1:20:43.080 time thing, that it was a one time incident, that 1:20:43.080 --> 1:20:46.439 it was one caravan. But this is happening constantly and 1:20:46.479 --> 1:20:50.320 it will continue to happen constantly for weeks. Yeah. And 1:20:50.439 --> 1:20:52.920 the trains and across the border, things like that that 1:20:52.960 --> 1:20:56.040 people can take or is it solely yes. So when 1:20:56.120 --> 1:20:58.040 when I said that I went to the train station 1:20:58.080 --> 1:21:00.599 and the leaven there were no trains. What was really 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:02.920 happening is, yes, there were trains, but all the trains 1:21:03.000 --> 1:21:07.320 until March March were booked, So okay, so yeah, people, 1:21:07.400 --> 1:21:11.200 people can't take those trains across that kind of thing. Uh, 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:13.320 if they tried a book right now, they won't be 1:21:13.360 --> 1:21:15.439 able to find a booking for a while. Okay, so 1:21:15.560 --> 1:21:18.439 they're already booked up. And by the way, here in 1:21:18.479 --> 1:21:21.360 crack out Um, the first two hostels that I went 1:21:21.439 --> 1:21:23.760 to the first two places to say that I went to, 1:21:24.080 --> 1:21:25.960 We're all booked up and I asked why and they said, 1:21:26.040 --> 1:21:29.800 Ukrainian refugees. So there are Ukrainian refuges here and crack out. Okay, Yeah, 1:21:29.800 --> 1:21:31.280 people are moving for it. I'm sure a lot of 1:21:31.280 --> 1:21:34.080 people want to get far aways they can. Yeah. So 1:21:34.120 --> 1:21:36.760 people are just constantly moving west right now. Yeah, but 1:21:36.880 --> 1:21:38.760 they have friends of a family that they try to 1:21:38.800 --> 1:21:41.759 get to because Yeah. And I've been hearing the Ukrainian 1:21:41.800 --> 1:21:48.000 language just constantly on my trip, so that's interesting too. Yeah. Yeah, 1:21:48.000 --> 1:21:49.920 thanks for that's a really really interesting inside. Is there 1:21:49.920 --> 1:21:52.880 anything else you think from your experience that people ought 1:21:52.880 --> 1:21:59.040 to hear about? Um? No, I believe I've told you everything. 1:21:59.080 --> 1:22:02.559 I've I've really told the story dozens of times since 1:22:02.600 --> 1:22:04.800 it happened, and UM, I really hope that I hit 1:22:04.840 --> 1:22:09.360 all the all the right notes here. UM if you 1:22:09.400 --> 1:22:11.240 if you had to tell anything to the people who 1:22:11.240 --> 1:22:16.599 were reading or listening to this, Um, Ukraine really needs weapons, yes, 1:22:16.640 --> 1:22:19.559 but they also need humanitarian aid. When I was walking 1:22:19.680 --> 1:22:22.120 all that distance with all those people, there was not 1:22:22.160 --> 1:22:25.760 a single sense of food being provided to anyone, water 1:22:25.800 --> 1:22:27.640 being provided to anyone. There was no chance to go 1:22:27.680 --> 1:22:29.960 to the toilet. There was often no chance to sit down. 1:22:30.360 --> 1:22:33.360 If we could give even a chance for these people 1:22:33.479 --> 1:22:37.240 to eat something, to drink something, to have a minute 1:22:37.360 --> 1:22:40.760 of solace, um, that would mean the world to them. 1:22:40.920 --> 1:22:42.920 And so I think that we need to provide humanitarian 1:22:42.960 --> 1:22:45.960 aid to the refugees as soon as possible. And you 1:22:46.080 --> 1:22:48.679 you said you didn't see any organizations you'd suggest people 1:22:48.760 --> 1:22:50.800 donate to that you you didn't see any of that? 1:22:51.160 --> 1:22:54.680 Is there anyone you can know? And I don't know. 1:22:54.760 --> 1:22:58.360 I haven't actually done the research and that I probably should, um, 1:22:58.439 --> 1:23:01.960 but I uh, I know that the Welcome Committee in 1:23:02.000 --> 1:23:04.280 Poland were private citizens. They were not part of any 1:23:04.360 --> 1:23:08.760 energy or anything. They were private citizens or welcoming awesome. Yeah, 1:23:08.960 --> 1:23:11.000 I've seen some of them organizing on Facebook, So I'll 1:23:11.000 --> 1:23:13.240 try maybe linked to some of those or something like that. 1:23:13.320 --> 1:23:16.960 So people going to support and all right, and then 1:23:17.040 --> 1:23:19.600 is there anything like you'd like to to plug? Like 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:21.439 do you have a you have a Twitter? Right? Is 1:23:21.520 --> 1:23:25.000 anything else you could tell us what your Twitter is? Um? 1:23:25.040 --> 1:23:27.000 I mean, so the Twitter that I'm using for this, 1:23:27.120 --> 1:23:29.280 which you've probably seen as a temporary one, it was 1:23:29.280 --> 1:23:32.000 not only to cover this crisis. I guess my private 1:23:32.000 --> 1:23:35.920 Twitter plugged that. Which is you've seen that as well? Probably, 1:23:36.439 --> 1:23:39.600 Um it's just my name. Um, yeah, I guess just 1:23:39.640 --> 1:23:43.439 plugged that. And uh, I mean thank you for everything? No, 1:23:43.680 --> 1:23:46.519 of course. Um it's a man nae marutta with two 1:23:46.520 --> 1:23:49.439 T s right, Yes, m A R O T T 1:23:49.479 --> 1:23:52.560 here great, Okay, we got that. And yeah, thank you 1:23:52.640 --> 1:23:54.680 very much. Thanks for taking the time to talk. I 1:23:54.720 --> 1:23:57.400 appreciate a pretty difficult couple of days to get some rest. 1:23:57.560 --> 1:24:00.720 And if there's anything else in any developments, please do 1:24:00.840 --> 1:24:03.880 let me know. Give mel Tyler thank you all right, 1:24:03.960 --> 1:24:13.759 jeez mate, do you have a meat me? Hey everyone, 1:24:13.920 --> 1:24:17.400 it's Bobby Brown. You might know me as the makeup 1:24:17.520 --> 1:24:20.360 artist beauty expert. You might also know me as the 1:24:20.400 --> 1:24:23.960 founder of Jones Road Beauty. But today I'm here with 1:24:24.080 --> 1:24:28.560 a brand new podcast, The Important Things. On this new podcast, 1:24:28.640 --> 1:24:31.240 I'll be joined by my co host and dear friend, 1:24:31.520 --> 1:24:37.519 international best selling author attorney and Ted Talk along Angelie Kumar. 1:24:38.280 --> 1:24:41.320 Together we want to answer the question how can you 1:24:41.400 --> 1:24:45.280 lead a life of fulfillment? The ongoing pandemic has given 1:24:45.360 --> 1:24:49.000 us all the opportunity to examine what really matters most 1:24:49.000 --> 1:24:52.559 to us and what brings us true contentment each week 1:24:52.560 --> 1:24:57.439 through candid conversations with friends, thought leaders, creators and entrepreneurs. 1:24:57.439 --> 1:24:59.639 Bobby and I are looking for ways we can all 1:24:59.720 --> 1:25:04.120 learn to live more authentic, gratifying lives. You can look 1:25:04.120 --> 1:25:07.880 forward to learning from our amazing guests, including the incomparable 1:25:07.920 --> 1:25:13.040 Glorious Steinum, entrepreneur and designer Jennifer Fisher, senator Corey Booker, 1:25:13.439 --> 1:25:17.840 charity founder Christy Turlington Burns, and many many more. So 1:25:17.960 --> 1:25:20.639 join us every other week as we dig deep into 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:25.040 the stuff that really matters on the important things. Listen 1:25:25.120 --> 1:25:27.559 to the important things on the I Heart Radio app, 1:25:27.720 --> 1:25:33.040 Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. If I 1:25:33.040 --> 1:25:35.600 could be you and you could be me for just 1:25:35.800 --> 1:25:38.160 one hour, if you could find a way to get 1:25:38.200 --> 1:25:42.799 inside each other's mind, walcome mile in my shoes, wacome 1:25:42.800 --> 1:25:47.519 Mile in my shoes Shoes. We've all felt left out, 1:25:47.880 --> 1:25:50.719 and for some that feeling lasts more than a moment. 1:25:51.240 --> 1:25:54.240 We can change that learn how it Belonging begins with 1:25:54.360 --> 1:25:56.799 us dot org, brought to you by the AD Council. 1:25:57.960 --> 1:26:04.479 Welcome Out in Machines. Hello, I'm Stacy Wilson Hunt, your 1:26:04.479 --> 1:26:09.479 host for inventing Anna the official podcast from Shonda Rhymes 1:26:09.479 --> 1:26:12.080 and the creators at Shonda Land. Inventing Anna tells the 1:26:12.080 --> 1:26:14.320 story of a young woman who charmed her way into 1:26:14.320 --> 1:26:17.719 the pocketbooks of New York's elite. Was she gonna take 1:26:17.760 --> 1:26:20.160 off with that twenty million dollars from the banks or 1:26:20.240 --> 1:26:22.200 was she going to pour it into this foundation? You know, 1:26:22.240 --> 1:26:24.519 people look at Anna and see what they want to see. 1:26:24.960 --> 1:26:27.320 On this podcast, you'll get the i p access to 1:26:27.360 --> 1:26:30.120 the real people who inspire the television series and to 1:26:30.240 --> 1:26:33.040 the actors and creatives like show runner Shawonda Rhimes who 1:26:33.040 --> 1:26:35.320 brought them to life. We were working on the show 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:38.600 while the trial was going on. I remember doing a 1:26:38.680 --> 1:26:44.440 dramatic reading of Todd's opening statement for the Writer's Room. 1:26:44.560 --> 1:26:47.360 Who is the fake Heiress? Anna Delvi join us as 1:26:47.400 --> 1:26:52.120 we unraveled the stories behind the story. Everything's true until 1:26:52.160 --> 1:26:56.120 it's not, basically, in Anna's world. Listen to Inventing Anna, 1:26:56.200 --> 1:26:59.240 the official podcast, every Wednesday on the I Heart Radio app, 1:26:59.280 --> 1:27:09.320 Apple podcast US, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's 1:27:09.400 --> 1:27:12.000 that's that's the thing. Just take photos of his children 1:27:12.040 --> 1:27:15.720 walking into the door of their public school. Yeah, send 1:27:15.760 --> 1:27:24.600 him to him with a pro pro pro toutotail account. 1:27:24.800 --> 1:27:26.640 Don't let him know what he did to provoke this, 1:27:26.880 --> 1:27:31.439 just just frighten him. I do like that els is 1:27:31.479 --> 1:27:34.519 being recorded. Yeah, that's that's how you do it. With 1:27:34.600 --> 1:27:37.559 the episode has begun, we're including all of that, Sophie, 1:27:37.880 --> 1:27:40.920 all of that Welcome to could happen here the podcast 1:27:40.960 --> 1:27:43.240 where we will take pictures of your children entering a 1:27:43.240 --> 1:27:46.040 public school and send them to you as a threat, 1:27:46.120 --> 1:27:47.960 But we won't tell you what you're we're threatening you 1:27:48.120 --> 1:27:52.519 over because that's I don't know what that is, probably 1:27:52.640 --> 1:28:00.920 terrorism technically speaking, speaking of child abuse. Great Garrison very 1:28:00.960 --> 1:28:05.479 proud nailed it. Yeah. Yeah, So we're gonna be We're 1:28:05.520 --> 1:28:09.799 gonna we're doing an episode to talk about the recent 1:28:10.000 --> 1:28:12.840 kind of letter and opinion piece that the governor of 1:28:12.880 --> 1:28:17.679 Texas and the Attorney general wrote relating to trans kids 1:28:17.680 --> 1:28:20.240 in Texas. We're we're also planning like a like a 1:28:20.280 --> 1:28:22.800 more like a week long worth of stuff kind of 1:28:22.840 --> 1:28:25.599 going into this issue across not not just the States, 1:28:25.640 --> 1:28:28.760 but also like like internationally as well in terms of 1:28:28.800 --> 1:28:31.720 like the growing kind of war on trans people. But 1:28:32.240 --> 1:28:34.320 because this thing happened, we we do want to kind 1:28:34.320 --> 1:28:37.120 of talk about it now as well before we you know, 1:28:37.280 --> 1:28:39.880 spend a lot of time making a week long is 1:28:39.880 --> 1:28:43.120 the worth of of of scripted pieces on it. So anyway, 1:28:43.160 --> 1:28:46.960 we're gonna be talking about what happened last last weekend 1:28:47.479 --> 1:28:50.360 or last week at time of recording, UM when the 1:28:50.880 --> 1:28:54.679 Texas Attorney General, Kent Paxton released an opinion piece UM 1:28:54.840 --> 1:28:58.160 on I think it was it was Monday the twenty one, 1:28:58.280 --> 1:29:01.960 declaring gender affirming medical care for transgender children to be 1:29:02.479 --> 1:29:06.200 child abuse UM. In response, the next day, UH, the 1:29:06.320 --> 1:29:09.559 Governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, directed the Texas Department of 1:29:09.600 --> 1:29:15.320 Family and Protective Services UM to investigate these practices UM. 1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:18.479 And then kind of on that following Wednesday, the letter 1:29:18.520 --> 1:29:22.439 that Grey Gabbott wrote went viral, detailing both the Attorney 1:29:22.439 --> 1:29:25.200 general's kind of opinion that a number of the so 1:29:25.240 --> 1:29:28.639 called quote sex change procedures constitute child abuse under existing 1:29:28.680 --> 1:29:33.639 Texas law UM and directing the Family and Protective Services 1:29:33.960 --> 1:29:37.439 to protect these to quote unquote protect these kids from abuse. 1:29:37.760 --> 1:29:40.439 And I hear by director agency to conduct a prompt 1:29:40.439 --> 1:29:43.599 and thrown investigation to any reported instances of these abusive 1:29:43.600 --> 1:29:47.320 procedures UM. And what's really insidious is that, like it's 1:29:47.360 --> 1:29:49.720 not even it's like, of course, like there is not 1:29:50.080 --> 1:29:55.240 gender affirming surgery done on minors anyway, that does not happen. Um. 1:29:55.280 --> 1:29:59.400 But the but this letter actually does, um go into 1:30:00.400 --> 1:30:03.560 it says uh, it's it says a according according to 1:30:03.600 --> 1:30:05.760 the General Attorney General opinion, it has already against the 1:30:05.800 --> 1:30:07.880 law to subject Texas children to a wide variety of 1:30:07.920 --> 1:30:11.640 elective procedures for gender transitioning, including re assignment surgeries that 1:30:11.640 --> 1:30:15.120 can cause sterilization, removals of otherwise healthy body parts, and 1:30:15.120 --> 1:30:20.120 administration of puberty blocking drugs or doses of testosterone or estrogen. 1:30:20.320 --> 1:30:24.280 So it's not it is also including HRT, including puberty blockers, 1:30:24.320 --> 1:30:26.639 which again we already give to sis gender children all 1:30:26.640 --> 1:30:30.479 the time. Um. Puberty blockers are given to kids who 1:30:30.479 --> 1:30:33.800 have early onset puberty who are assists. Um, but it's 1:30:33.800 --> 1:30:38.080 now including puberty blockers inside like constituting that in its 1:30:38.080 --> 1:30:41.280 in and of itself as child abuse, which is an 1:30:41.360 --> 1:30:45.200 escalation of things that we've seen before. Um. Yeah. And 1:30:45.240 --> 1:30:48.919 then it's also talking about how Texas law imposes reporting 1:30:48.960 --> 1:30:55.120 requirements upon all licensed professionals, um, including doctors and nurses, teachers, therapists, 1:30:55.479 --> 1:30:58.280 and provides you know, criminal penalties for failure to report things. 1:30:58.400 --> 1:31:01.280 So like it is that that was that was that 1:31:01.360 --> 1:31:03.680 was the that was the main part of the of 1:31:03.720 --> 1:31:08.000 the letter, that one viral detailing the different different ways 1:31:08.000 --> 1:31:12.600 that they're trying to harass, intimidate, and um introduce possible 1:31:12.720 --> 1:31:17.360 legal legal repercussions to parents and um, you know, caregivers 1:31:17.400 --> 1:31:26.520 who support transgender youth inside the state of Texas. Oh yeah, 1:31:26.800 --> 1:31:29.720 um it is. It is like the perfect example of 1:31:29.720 --> 1:31:32.599 the thing these people always do when they make laws 1:31:32.640 --> 1:31:36.880 based on their bigotry, which is like reflexively make a 1:31:36.960 --> 1:31:39.679 law based on whatever is like the fucking Twitter talking 1:31:39.760 --> 1:31:42.400 point that they've been yelling about, and then don't consider 1:31:42.439 --> 1:31:44.559 all of the different things that it's going to do 1:31:44.600 --> 1:31:46.240 that have nothing to do with the group of people 1:31:46.240 --> 1:31:49.680 they're trying to hurt. And lots of cases, this is 1:31:49.720 --> 1:31:52.000 just gonna it's it's not even gonna it's it's gonna 1:31:52.000 --> 1:31:54.240 impact a lot of like queer people in general, right 1:31:54.240 --> 1:31:56.800 because it's it's in terms of like reporting things that 1:31:56.840 --> 1:31:59.320 seem outside the mainstream, so not even necessarily trans not 1:31:59.320 --> 1:32:02.200 even necessarily and gender people, not even necessarily queer people 1:32:02.200 --> 1:32:03.680 as well, Like there's a lot of like you know, 1:32:03.840 --> 1:32:05.840 I I and if definitely when I was growing if 1:32:05.840 --> 1:32:07.800 there was a lot of like cis girls who enjoy 1:32:07.960 --> 1:32:11.680 dressing more like butcher tomboy. Um. You know, there's a 1:32:11.720 --> 1:32:13.360 there's a and there's a whole bunch of stuff that 1:32:13.360 --> 1:32:17.080 will just affect like kids in general. Um, with all 1:32:17.120 --> 1:32:20.040 of this reporting and all of this like and making 1:32:21.040 --> 1:32:25.360 making these like procedures and like hormone treatments like you know, 1:32:25.439 --> 1:32:28.000 to trying to make them seem like they're legal. Because 1:32:28.040 --> 1:32:30.120 that because again, like the actual Texas law has has 1:32:30.160 --> 1:32:33.360 not changed. It is it is the it is. This 1:32:33.439 --> 1:32:37.920 is an opinion piece investing directing the child Protective Services 1:32:38.080 --> 1:32:40.640 to investigate these things. So the actual law in the 1:32:40.640 --> 1:32:42.920 books doesn't changed. What it has done is caused a 1:32:42.920 --> 1:32:46.640 whole bunch of like possible legal danger um and a 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:48.599 massive headache and just a whole bunch of like legal 1:32:48.600 --> 1:32:51.240 harassment against parents and kids. And that that's what it's 1:32:51.280 --> 1:32:53.799 gonna that's what's gonna result in because it's it's unclear 1:32:53.880 --> 1:32:55.920 what this what the governor's directive is going to actually 1:32:55.920 --> 1:32:59.439 practically look like. Um, because in the in the in 1:32:59.479 --> 1:33:02.479 a tweet on last Tuesday, he said that he's directing 1:33:03.000 --> 1:33:05.920 the Child Protective Services to enforce this ruling and investigate 1:33:05.960 --> 1:33:10.080 and refer for prosecution for instances of miners receiving affirming 1:33:10.160 --> 1:33:14.120 care UM and then to the Texas Protective Services told 1:33:14.120 --> 1:33:16.719 Time magazine on Wednesday that it was going to comply 1:33:16.800 --> 1:33:19.880 with the Governor's directive UM, but in terms of like 1:33:19.920 --> 1:33:23.160 directing them for prosecution, there has been like five Texas 1:33:23.680 --> 1:33:26.679 District Attorneys UM, including the d as of Dallas County 1:33:26.720 --> 1:33:29.479 and Houston's Travis County. They issued a statement to the 1:33:29.560 --> 1:33:33.599 day after UH condemning the directive UM and saying that 1:33:33.680 --> 1:33:36.759 they plan to enforce the Constitution with their quote unquote 1:33:36.760 --> 1:33:38.880 that's what they said, and that they are quote deeply 1:33:38.880 --> 1:33:42.800 disturbed by Governor Abbots and Attorney General Paxton's cruel directives 1:33:43.120 --> 1:33:46.840 treating transgender children's access to life saving gender firm and 1:33:46.880 --> 1:33:49.760 care as child abuse. We will not irrationally and a 1:33:49.840 --> 1:33:53.439 jujustifiably interfere with medical decisions made between children, their parents, 1:33:53.439 --> 1:33:56.840 and her medical physicians to ensure the safety of transgender youth, 1:33:57.360 --> 1:33:59.720 adding that we will not allow the Governor or turned 1:33:59.760 --> 1:34:03.519 General to disregard Texas children's lives in order to score 1:34:03.520 --> 1:34:06.200 political points. So in terms of you know, there's many 1:34:06.240 --> 1:34:08.000 certain parts of the certain parts of the state where 1:34:08.439 --> 1:34:11.559 even even if protective services does investigate reports of this, 1:34:11.920 --> 1:34:14.160 they're not gonna get prosecuted. But there will be other 1:34:14.160 --> 1:34:16.400 parts of the state where these they probably will like 1:34:16.600 --> 1:34:18.439 and because like it's it's because because it is just 1:34:18.880 --> 1:34:21.479 because it is just an interpretation of the law, you 1:34:21.520 --> 1:34:24.559 can still you can still get lots of legal trouble 1:34:24.880 --> 1:34:26.519 and it's going to be up to juries and other 1:34:26.520 --> 1:34:29.000 people to decide on what interpretation of the law is 1:34:29.040 --> 1:34:32.639 going to be enforced and enacted upon. Um, So you're 1:34:32.640 --> 1:34:34.200 seeing a lot of people being like, oh, no, it's 1:34:34.200 --> 1:34:36.519 actually okay because the law is not changing, it's just 1:34:36.560 --> 1:34:39.240 the interpretation. They're like, well, no, it actually is a 1:34:39.240 --> 1:34:41.880 big problem. Like it's like and it's not even it's 1:34:41.880 --> 1:34:45.720 just the overall like it's saying the things that have 1:34:45.840 --> 1:34:49.080 been gone unsaid for a long time, like it's it's 1:34:49.120 --> 1:34:51.280 it's it's making the things that everyone kind of assumed 1:34:51.680 --> 1:34:54.240 or was kind of the unsaid bigotry, putting it into 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:57.479 writing and making it concrete. And it's like the overall 1:34:57.560 --> 1:35:00.880 escalation of this thing which is which is deep, deep, 1:35:01.000 --> 1:35:03.799 deeply concerning I mean, it's it's the thing that happened 1:35:03.800 --> 1:35:07.679 with like COVID restrictions with like masks and stuff, where 1:35:08.479 --> 1:35:10.880 you've got the cities and stuff where you have kind 1:35:10.880 --> 1:35:13.479 of more rational leadership are saying like we're not we're 1:35:13.520 --> 1:35:15.880 not paying attention to this directed from the governor. We're 1:35:15.880 --> 1:35:17.840 going to keep having letting people mask or we're not 1:35:17.840 --> 1:35:21.080 going to let you, you know, go after businesses that 1:35:21.120 --> 1:35:26.599 require masks. But with the added dimension of like the 1:35:26.720 --> 1:35:29.879 rather than it being sort of targeting businesses and schools, 1:35:30.000 --> 1:35:33.200 it's it's targeting individuals, and it's allowing individuals to target 1:35:33.200 --> 1:35:36.200 other individuals, like the the Texas abortion law exactly. And 1:35:36.360 --> 1:35:38.920 the primary purpose of this is going to be too 1:35:39.880 --> 1:35:44.320 basically gradually erode the areas in which which trans kids 1:35:44.600 --> 1:35:48.000 can can live in Texas. Like yep, they'll be able 1:35:48.000 --> 1:35:49.679 to live in some of the cities for a while 1:35:49.720 --> 1:35:52.200 at least, well and even even in the cities. Right, 1:35:52.200 --> 1:35:54.759 it's like, yeah, okay, so maybe the the A doesn't prosecute, 1:35:54.760 --> 1:35:57.320 but that doesn't mean that CPS can't just can't investigate you. 1:35:57.720 --> 1:36:01.400 And like that's that's gonna be traumatic a lot of 1:36:01.479 --> 1:36:06.559 legal harassment because like DFPS cannot remove any child from 1:36:06.560 --> 1:36:09.280 their parents or guardians without a court order, and no 1:36:09.400 --> 1:36:12.559 court in Texas or anywhere in the country has yet 1:36:12.640 --> 1:36:15.400 found gender affirm and care to be considered child abuse. 1:36:15.600 --> 1:36:18.519 So it has not happened yet, but they sure wanted 1:36:18.600 --> 1:36:20.559 to happen, and this is these are the next These 1:36:20.560 --> 1:36:23.280 are the next steps that can make it happen. Right, 1:36:23.479 --> 1:36:26.320 They are trying to get there um with this like 1:36:26.439 --> 1:36:29.559 incremental like these incremental things, you know, starting off with 1:36:29.600 --> 1:36:32.519 like legal interpretations of the law. Eventually they would want 1:36:32.640 --> 1:36:35.200 to change the law just to reflect this opinion, right, 1:36:35.400 --> 1:36:38.120 Like they want this to happen. They're just they're trying 1:36:38.160 --> 1:36:43.439 to slowly, slowly, slowly get at it um and it 1:36:43.520 --> 1:36:46.719 needs to be pushed back upon because yeah, any any 1:36:46.760 --> 1:36:48.519 slow incremental thing that they're going to try to do 1:36:48.640 --> 1:36:51.439 to make it basically be impossible to live as trans 1:36:51.439 --> 1:36:54.519 in Texas, the UH and lots of other states as well. 1:36:54.560 --> 1:36:56.280 It's not just it's not just Texas. There's things like 1:36:56.320 --> 1:36:59.759 this happening across all of the United States, basically, especially 1:37:00.200 --> 1:37:03.320 especially you know, por portions, portions of the South. Um. 1:37:04.080 --> 1:37:08.120 And it's yeah, it does play into this kind of 1:37:08.160 --> 1:37:11.000 overall in the past five years. You know, once they 1:37:11.080 --> 1:37:13.960 lost the gay marriage issue, they're like, Okay, the next 1:37:13.960 --> 1:37:17.040 line of defense for these people is making it be 1:37:17.080 --> 1:37:19.280 impossible to be trans. So it is that it's like 1:37:19.320 --> 1:37:21.519 the new that's the new thing they're gonna be really 1:37:21.520 --> 1:37:24.200 focusing on. And it's we've seen so many, so many 1:37:24.240 --> 1:37:28.360 new bills against against like being trans over the course 1:37:28.360 --> 1:37:30.200 of the past five years. Again, it's it is more 1:37:30.280 --> 1:37:33.479 so putting into writing the things that have been always 1:37:33.560 --> 1:37:36.840 kind of unconscious bigotry or even concious bigotry, but it's 1:37:36.880 --> 1:37:41.280 putting that into actual stone and making it like cemented. Um. 1:37:41.439 --> 1:37:43.080 You know, just at just at the start of this year, 1:37:43.120 --> 1:37:46.200 there was new restrictions put in place protectas is transgender 1:37:46.240 --> 1:37:49.519 student athletes playing on K through twelve school sports teams 1:37:50.040 --> 1:37:53.439 UM that that went into effect on January eighteenth. It 1:37:53.600 --> 1:37:56.680 was it was a house built twenty five authored by 1:37:57.040 --> 1:38:02.720 Representative Valerie Swanson. UM requires student athletes to complete in 1:38:02.840 --> 1:38:06.360 interslastic competition to play on sports teams that correspond with 1:38:06.400 --> 1:38:08.840 the sex listed on their birth certificate at or near 1:38:08.880 --> 1:38:11.679 their time of birth, which means that the legislation went 1:38:11.720 --> 1:38:15.280 further than the previous rules from the University of Slastic 1:38:15.360 --> 1:38:18.439 League UM, which governs the school sports in Texas, in 1:38:18.439 --> 1:38:22.280 which the students gender is determined by their birth certificate, 1:38:22.520 --> 1:38:25.200 but that that can also be legally modified, like you 1:38:25.240 --> 1:38:28.160 can change these sex assigned at birth only on your 1:38:28.160 --> 1:38:30.920 birth certificate. The new ruling is that it needs to 1:38:30.960 --> 1:38:32.840 be it needs to match the one that it was 1:38:32.920 --> 1:38:35.200 at or near your time of birth. So again, like 1:38:35.200 --> 1:38:37.799 they're finding all these little, these little small like things 1:38:37.880 --> 1:38:43.280 to like pry um that just makes things overall be 1:38:43.400 --> 1:38:45.439 harder to live in UM. And at this point, like 1:38:45.560 --> 1:38:48.000 ten ten other states have put in very similar laws 1:38:48.040 --> 1:38:52.519 relating to like relating to to school sports and like 1:38:52.640 --> 1:38:57.160 bathroom bills, and yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's the 1:38:58.000 --> 1:39:00.560 it's the same thing that authoritarians always do, which is 1:39:00.600 --> 1:39:03.559 they're just kind of edging further and further and and 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:07.479 continuing to proceed as they do not meet resistance, and 1:39:07.520 --> 1:39:10.760 the goal is to make it illegal and impossible to 1:39:10.880 --> 1:39:13.639 exist as a transgender person in society. You know. Part 1:39:13.640 --> 1:39:15.960 of what they're doing with with the wording of how 1:39:16.400 --> 1:39:18.599 this change in Texas has been announced as they're trying 1:39:18.600 --> 1:39:22.960 to frame being trans is a contagion that threatens children. 1:39:23.120 --> 1:39:27.320 And step one of that under the is going proceeding 1:39:27.360 --> 1:39:29.639 under the ages if we are protecting children by making 1:39:29.640 --> 1:39:32.759 these kind of surgeries and stuff illegal. But the steps 1:39:32.800 --> 1:39:36.479 beyond that are eventually banning and restricting the ability of 1:39:36.479 --> 1:39:39.080 trans people to be around children and eventually be in 1:39:39.080 --> 1:39:41.360 civil society at all because they're a threat to children. 1:39:41.360 --> 1:39:44.880 That that that's the logical procession of the arguments that 1:39:44.920 --> 1:39:48.240 they're making, and I think they're proceeding in a fairly 1:39:48.840 --> 1:39:53.880 um um logical way in terms of achieving that as 1:39:53.920 --> 1:39:57.680 a goal, and they're not going to stop until they 1:39:57.680 --> 1:40:03.320 are stopped by probably force, if anything stops it. At 1:40:03.320 --> 1:40:05.960 this point, that's that's what it's going to have to be, 1:40:05.960 --> 1:40:10.439 because the local government has realized that that's how you 1:40:10.479 --> 1:40:14.120 get elected because you can't you can fix the power 1:40:14.160 --> 1:40:16.479 grid in Texas, you can't provide people with anything that 1:40:16.560 --> 1:40:18.759 makes their lives easier, but you can hurt trans people. 1:40:19.560 --> 1:40:23.479 Um and Republicans are are well, are always down with that. 1:40:23.640 --> 1:40:25.519 It's it's it's it's it's this thing fascists do where 1:40:25.520 --> 1:40:28.040 they introduce a false crisis. They introduce a false crisis 1:40:28.080 --> 1:40:32.600 that they can actually take steps to to you know, UM, 1:40:32.720 --> 1:40:35.360 make changes about but all that ends up doing is 1:40:35.439 --> 1:40:37.360 hurting more of the population. It doesn't actually solve any 1:40:37.400 --> 1:40:40.439 issue that actually hurts people. UM. It's it's one of 1:40:40.439 --> 1:40:42.360 the core things in the fascist playbook. And I think 1:40:42.520 --> 1:40:44.600 it's even in the States where there aren't just like 1:40:44.680 --> 1:40:48.760 blanket bands on kids being able to participate in sports teams. Um, 1:40:48.920 --> 1:40:51.799 there's other horrifying things happening. UM. Like in the beginning 1:40:51.800 --> 1:40:56.120 of February, it came out that the Utah Republicans propose 1:40:56.360 --> 1:41:02.280 a Commission to analyze trans its bodies. Um. You're talking 1:41:02.280 --> 1:41:05.000 about the first of its kind anti transit sports bill 1:41:05.280 --> 1:41:08.160 that would form a commission to determine a student athletes 1:41:08.200 --> 1:41:11.840 eligibility on a case by case basis. The commission would 1:41:11.840 --> 1:41:14.559 have authority to establish a baseline range for various attributes 1:41:14.560 --> 1:41:18.080 including height, weight, body mass, wingspan, hiptoony ratio another physical 1:41:18.120 --> 1:41:22.240 characteristics affected by puberty bearing trans athletes UM who do 1:41:22.280 --> 1:41:24.920 not fall within the established limits to from from participating 1:41:24.960 --> 1:41:29.679 engendered sports. UM. And yeah, asking like a government appointed 1:41:29.680 --> 1:41:32.920 panel to analyze the bodies of transminers. It does sound 1:41:32.920 --> 1:41:35.479 like a giant recipe for disaster. UM. And there is 1:41:35.520 --> 1:41:39.000 some even more like horrifying details. The bill would render 1:41:39.400 --> 1:41:43.639 the commission quote immune from suit like lawsuits with respect 1:41:43.720 --> 1:41:46.519 to all acts done and actions taken in good faith 1:41:46.800 --> 1:41:50.519 in carrying out their purposes. Uh so, yeah, you can't 1:41:50.520 --> 1:41:54.160 sue anybody for what happens under the guise of this commission. 1:41:54.280 --> 1:41:58.240 So yeah, they're just gonna be investigating trans youth bodies 1:41:58.400 --> 1:42:02.160 and yep, you can't. There's no law suits allowed. That's great. 1:42:02.920 --> 1:42:04.840 Let's let's let's let's get let's give the let's give 1:42:04.880 --> 1:42:09.280 the trans child abuse. Uh phrenology panel just immunity from 1:42:09.320 --> 1:42:16.400 lawsuits like, yeah, qualified extend qualified immunity to citizens hurting 1:42:16.800 --> 1:42:21.840 the group of people that, uh, we don't think are human, Like, 1:42:22.280 --> 1:42:24.320 this isn't the only way place we're going to see 1:42:24.320 --> 1:42:27.160 that logic extended towards you're already seeing in places like 1:42:27.200 --> 1:42:29.679 Louisiana with these bills to make it legal to kill 1:42:29.720 --> 1:42:34.240 protesters if you feel threatened. Um, like, it's it's the 1:42:34.320 --> 1:42:37.160 same playbook, and it's going to be the same playbook 1:42:37.200 --> 1:42:40.920 because there's no way to fight it without some sort 1:42:40.920 --> 1:42:45.160 of force. You can't vote these people away. The courts 1:42:45.240 --> 1:42:49.480 are packed for the time being. There's there's only there's 1:42:49.520 --> 1:42:52.280 not a solution that isn't some kind of force. Now 1:42:52.280 --> 1:42:54.519 we can discuss is it like the force of getting 1:42:54.560 --> 1:42:56.880 the FEDS to intervene or whatever, But like there's no, 1:42:57.560 --> 1:43:02.040 there's no solution that is just like democratic I mean, 1:43:02.120 --> 1:43:05.799 And like Biden's office made a statement on this recent 1:43:05.880 --> 1:43:11.120 Texas like law opinion interpretation thing, and they're like, yeah, 1:43:11.400 --> 1:43:13.760 this seem was bad anyway, good luck? Could you like yeah, 1:43:13.880 --> 1:43:18.040 oh cool, Yeah, it's that that meme of like the 1:43:18.080 --> 1:43:24.000 person drowning with their hand out and they high, yeah, 1:43:24.040 --> 1:43:26.840 that's exactly what's happening. And I think the situation is 1:43:26.920 --> 1:43:29.160 like on is he's worse than that too? Because you know, 1:43:29.200 --> 1:43:31.320 in the past couple of weeks, what's something we started 1:43:31.320 --> 1:43:34.240 seeing as we started seeing democratic journals and democratic strategists 1:43:34.680 --> 1:43:36.759 openly talking about how we need to make as sessions 1:43:36.760 --> 1:43:38.280 to the right and the culture war, It's like, okay, well, 1:43:38.280 --> 1:43:40.080 what does that mean is like, yeah, throw tro trans 1:43:40.120 --> 1:43:44.000 concert the bus, right, Yeah, because they can't vote, they're 1:43:44.000 --> 1:43:47.320 already freaks, So yeah, they're the easiest person to pick 1:43:47.320 --> 1:43:51.320 away at the rights for um. And because overall, just 1:43:51.400 --> 1:43:53.040 in the past year alone, more than a hundred bills 1:43:53.080 --> 1:43:55.160 designed to restrict the rights of transgender people have been 1:43:55.200 --> 1:43:58.840 introduced at least three three states. Um, it's a it's 1:43:58.840 --> 1:44:02.280 a it's a record breaking year for anti trans legislation 1:44:02.280 --> 1:44:05.200 that's been that has been introduced. UM. In Arkansas to 1:44:05.200 --> 1:44:09.360 state legislator recently banned gender affirming treatment for miners, um, 1:44:09.400 --> 1:44:14.120 including hormotherapy like like puerty blockers and similar treatments. Again, 1:44:14.160 --> 1:44:16.519 this is the thing that like that could not happen 1:44:16.560 --> 1:44:19.200 for a long time anyway, just because like culturally and 1:44:19.240 --> 1:44:21.920 medically doctors would never do that. But now at the 1:44:21.920 --> 1:44:24.320 point where that started starting to change, it is this 1:44:24.560 --> 1:44:28.800 it is this like um reactive, reactive effect that people 1:44:28.840 --> 1:44:30.280 are doing. And like now now that now that these 1:44:30.320 --> 1:44:33.200 cogs are turning, people are putting the massive brakes on 1:44:33.240 --> 1:44:35.200 it and putting the thing that used to be just 1:44:35.320 --> 1:44:38.759 unsaid now into actual legal writing. So now this actually 1:44:38.840 --> 1:44:41.240 is like just not allowed as opposed to it's just 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:44.559 not happening because doctors were assholes. So yeah, in Arkansas, 1:44:44.680 --> 1:44:48.439 you can't even receive hormone treatment or beauty blockers. The 1:44:48.439 --> 1:44:53.599 bill was called the Save Adolescence from Experimentation Act. Yeah, 1:44:53.720 --> 1:44:56.400 so referring to medical treatment of one of affirming one's 1:44:56.439 --> 1:44:59.439 gender identity as experimentation. Um, which is not great. I 1:44:59.439 --> 1:45:02.320 mean that is that is how I view it for 1:45:02.360 --> 1:45:05.040 myself because I like being a freak. But as an 1:45:05.040 --> 1:45:07.720 overall trend, that is that is horrible. Like, that is 1:45:07.720 --> 1:45:09.920 a horrible way to to phrase this type of thing 1:45:10.200 --> 1:45:13.439 for a lot of people, especially the people who who 1:45:13.680 --> 1:45:16.680 know specifically what gender they want to be and and 1:45:16.840 --> 1:45:19.800 are like that is that affects them so differently. I 1:45:19.800 --> 1:45:23.160 mean I'm I'm lucky enough just to be more gender 1:45:23.240 --> 1:45:26.960 queer ish um. And but yeah, it's all of these 1:45:26.960 --> 1:45:30.040 bills are gonna affect so many people in different ways, 1:45:30.160 --> 1:45:35.040 and it's it's real bad. Like shortly after the Arkansas 1:45:35.120 --> 1:45:39.679 bill prohibiting transforming medical practices was signed into law last April, 1:45:39.880 --> 1:45:44.240 reports of suicide attempts among trans youth in the state. Uh, 1:45:44.680 --> 1:45:49.960 we're going up. Um. And the doctor Michelle Hutchinson, who 1:45:50.000 --> 1:45:52.240 runs the largest provider of hormo therapy in the state, 1:45:52.439 --> 1:45:55.519 called the ap that just just into her office alone 1:45:55.600 --> 1:45:58.719 during April she saw an uptick in suicide attempts from 1:45:58.760 --> 1:46:03.040 from from Trent youth and this is this is it's 1:46:03.080 --> 1:46:05.759 gonna keep happening, and like there is you can't trust 1:46:05.760 --> 1:46:08.880 a lot to stop it. Like the Arkansas Governor um 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:13.040 uh Issa Hutchinson, a Republican, did veto this bill, citing 1:46:13.080 --> 1:46:16.280 potentially dangerous consequences for trans youth and telling it that 1:46:16.520 --> 1:46:19.559 telling reporters that it was a vast government overreach and 1:46:19.680 --> 1:46:22.439 a byproduct of the culture war in America, and her 1:46:22.560 --> 1:46:25.280 veto was vetoed by the state legislator. So like it's 1:46:25.280 --> 1:46:28.559 gonna be a looping, endless problem of legal issues. So 1:46:28.920 --> 1:46:31.639 it's there's there's needs to be other things. Like I've 1:46:31.640 --> 1:46:34.240 been on Twitter the past week just watch looking at 1:46:34.240 --> 1:46:37.280 all the go fund means by parents of trans kids 1:46:37.280 --> 1:46:39.719 in Texas who are trying to move out of state 1:46:39.840 --> 1:46:43.439 so that their kid can receive like hormone treatment and 1:46:43.479 --> 1:46:45.920 just like be allowed to be a person without being 1:46:46.080 --> 1:46:50.840 harassed by protective services and teachers and the school system. 1:46:50.880 --> 1:46:53.479 And it's it's it's it's horrifying, like watching all these 1:46:53.479 --> 1:46:56.200 people like asking for help so they can move out 1:46:56.240 --> 1:46:57.960 of state so that they can let their kid be 1:46:58.240 --> 1:47:03.200 just a kid. Um, And it's it is, it is 1:47:03.240 --> 1:47:06.280 really rough, um And a big part of why, part 1:47:06.280 --> 1:47:09.040 of why it's so horrifying is that, Like, obviously, if 1:47:09.040 --> 1:47:11.400 you're in that situation, you can get your kid out there, 1:47:11.680 --> 1:47:15.960 of course, but it also means the more people who 1:47:15.960 --> 1:47:18.920 move out of places like that, the less resources there 1:47:18.920 --> 1:47:21.360 will be in the future for kids whose parents can't 1:47:21.400 --> 1:47:23.400 get them out, you know, and the less support there 1:47:23.439 --> 1:47:26.360 will be, the less and like there is just there 1:47:26.479 --> 1:47:28.880 is no real escape from it, like you cannot get 1:47:28.920 --> 1:47:32.439 fully away. It is that you cannot ever fully escape 1:47:32.520 --> 1:47:37.320 that type of fascist um thought and creep within the state. 1:47:37.680 --> 1:47:40.439 Letis later and specifically around you know how it's going 1:47:40.479 --> 1:47:45.880 to affect different different classes of minorities. UM, I will 1:47:45.920 --> 1:47:47.559 dract people if you want to kind of learn more 1:47:47.600 --> 1:47:50.120 about this sort of thing, and if you, you know, 1:47:50.479 --> 1:47:53.240 can you can find some some stuff around there. There's 1:47:53.240 --> 1:47:56.760 an organization Texas called TENT, which is the UH I 1:47:56.840 --> 1:47:59.080 just want to make sure I say it right. Oh no, 1:47:59.400 --> 1:48:05.240 it's the EXIS Educational Network, the trans Educational Network of Texas. UM. 1:48:05.280 --> 1:48:07.120 It's one one of those, but it is it is a. 1:48:07.240 --> 1:48:08.559 It is a It has a whole bunch of like 1:48:08.560 --> 1:48:12.000 mental health resources, guides for trans youth in Texas, for 1:48:12.080 --> 1:48:16.000 how to make things slightly less shitty, um, and yeah, 1:48:16.000 --> 1:48:18.240 they do. They do some advocacy work in Texas. There's 1:48:18.280 --> 1:48:21.439 also a Quality Texas which is another organization that does 1:48:21.520 --> 1:48:26.000 that does some assistance for transgender people like in schools. 1:48:26.680 --> 1:48:28.920 Um and just you know, try again trying to make 1:48:29.040 --> 1:48:33.800 life slightly less slightly less shitty. Um, yeah, I kind 1:48:33.800 --> 1:48:36.320 of the last the last thing I wrote is the 1:48:37.040 --> 1:48:40.600 is just fix your hearts or die, which is the 1:48:40.800 --> 1:48:44.000 kind of overall overall message that you can really only 1:48:44.000 --> 1:48:46.200 give to people who want to do this type of thing, 1:48:46.720 --> 1:48:49.920 is that, Yeah, there's really no arguing with them. Um, 1:48:50.000 --> 1:48:52.559 you have to either they need to fix their hearts 1:48:52.720 --> 1:48:55.920 or not be around anymore. Like they're they're just like 1:48:56.080 --> 1:48:59.280 whether that be like just secluded to your part of society, 1:48:59.360 --> 1:49:02.280 but it's think it it needs to be actually like 1:49:02.400 --> 1:49:04.439 resisted upon because these people are never going to back 1:49:04.479 --> 1:49:06.799 down on their own. The other part of the problem 1:49:06.800 --> 1:49:11.439 here again is just with how you know, like this 1:49:11.600 --> 1:49:13.160 this is sort of kind of this is an inherent 1:49:13.200 --> 1:49:16.680 problem that you have with democracies, right with with democracies 1:49:16.680 --> 1:49:18.360 and civil rights, where it's yeah, you have a group 1:49:18.400 --> 1:49:21.800 people who aren't extremely small minority, and you know, and 1:49:21.880 --> 1:49:23.880 you know and and and This gets compounded by the 1:49:23.920 --> 1:49:26.360 fact that you're dealing with extremely well minority of people, 1:49:26.920 --> 1:49:31.080 and you know, you're already dealing with like the you know, 1:49:31.120 --> 1:49:34.000 the thing that is called democracy, right is only participated 1:49:34.040 --> 1:49:36.439 in by an extremely small number of people, especially when 1:49:37.000 --> 1:49:38.519 you get you know, especially when you get down to 1:49:38.640 --> 1:49:40.800 like the the state level, of the local level, right, 1:49:40.840 --> 1:49:42.760 like very few people are actually voting in these things. 1:49:42.760 --> 1:49:44.800 That people who are voting in these things like want 1:49:44.800 --> 1:49:48.759 trans people to die, and so you know, you you 1:49:48.760 --> 1:49:50.840 you you need, you need some kind of other solution 1:49:50.920 --> 1:49:55.559 to actually secure to secure civil rights, because there's just 1:49:55.640 --> 1:49:57.800 there's there literally are not enough trans people, and there 1:49:57.840 --> 1:50:00.400 are not enough people who support them and care enough 1:50:00.439 --> 1:50:02.720 to do it and also are in these areas to 1:50:03.120 --> 1:50:07.080 prevent this through just the normal like vote blue. I mean, 1:50:07.200 --> 1:50:09.360 like I keep seeing this with with Texas. Everyone keeps 1:50:09.360 --> 1:50:10.920 saying it's like, well, okay, we just gotta vote blue. 1:50:10.920 --> 1:50:13.439 And it's like people have been like people have been 1:50:13.439 --> 1:50:15.880 saying this about stuff in Texas for as long as 1:50:15.880 --> 1:50:19.439 I've been alive. It has never happened. Ever, Like it 1:50:19.479 --> 1:50:22.000 hasn't my entire life. They keep saying, is it keeps 1:50:22.000 --> 1:50:26.000 not happening? And kids keep dying, and yeah, there has 1:50:26.080 --> 1:50:28.880 there has to be something else because yeah, Texas is 1:50:28.920 --> 1:50:33.240 going to come back here. Texas has been labor laboriously 1:50:33.360 --> 1:50:36.479 constructed as a political entity to sty me all of 1:50:36.520 --> 1:50:42.200 your liberal dreams of of uh it going purple um 1:50:42.280 --> 1:50:45.240 and and it will continue to be for the foreseeable future. 1:50:45.439 --> 1:50:49.400 Like you cannot. This is not a voting issue. This 1:50:49.520 --> 1:50:54.479 is a I mean, like I said, some kind of 1:50:54.479 --> 1:50:56.320 force is going to have to be used to oppose 1:50:56.400 --> 1:50:58.960 these people. They're not they're not there. They wouldn't listen 1:50:58.960 --> 1:51:01.960 if you voted amount you know, and and they do 1:51:02.400 --> 1:51:04.320 like they themselves do for is you look at all 1:51:04.320 --> 1:51:07.320 the stuff we've been doing. Yeah, and and and even 1:51:07.320 --> 1:51:09.599 like regular people like this whole thing of like yes, 1:51:09.760 --> 1:51:12.040 you should like report to your neighbors that you see 1:51:12.240 --> 1:51:14.040 if you if you see a kid who doesn't look 1:51:14.040 --> 1:51:17.960 like a regular normal borings this child, then yeah you 1:51:17.960 --> 1:51:20.479 should report them. But you should go harass everyone who 1:51:20.479 --> 1:51:22.599 works in your school board so that they ban all 1:51:22.640 --> 1:51:26.160 books referencing anything related to being queer. It's like they 1:51:26.720 --> 1:51:31.639 do take steps to actually hurt other individuals. Um, and 1:51:32.040 --> 1:51:34.840 they can do it through these means that you know, 1:51:35.439 --> 1:51:38.000 they don't necessarily have to always punch you in the face, 1:51:38.360 --> 1:51:41.559 but they can sure direct the state to send agents 1:51:41.600 --> 1:51:44.800 to your house to to like to intimidate, harass you 1:51:45.040 --> 1:51:48.120 and threaten to threaten to take away your children. Um 1:51:48.240 --> 1:51:50.040 or they can you know, if you're a therapist or 1:51:50.040 --> 1:51:52.519 a teacher, you can be fired or put in jail 1:51:52.920 --> 1:51:57.800 for failing to report, you know, kids who don't subscribe 1:51:57.840 --> 1:52:02.920 to their Christian supremacist ideas of like traditional general rules. Um. 1:52:02.960 --> 1:52:05.320 Because again it's it's it's not even all it's like again, 1:52:05.360 --> 1:52:08.760 there's not tons of trends people in general. Usually it's 1:52:08.800 --> 1:52:10.840 like this is just gonna affect a lot of CIS 1:52:10.960 --> 1:52:14.160 kids as well, who maybe don't want to who don't, 1:52:14.240 --> 1:52:16.840 who don't who don't who who just want to dress cool? 1:52:17.160 --> 1:52:19.400 Like it's like it's it's it's it doesn't even just 1:52:19.560 --> 1:52:23.360 like it is is it does affect everybody. Um, So 1:52:23.520 --> 1:52:25.839 it is it's a it's a it's a it's a 1:52:25.840 --> 1:52:28.240 horrible it's a horrible thing that is not even like 1:52:28.520 --> 1:52:30.720 there's no escape from it, and it will affect you 1:52:30.720 --> 1:52:33.720 whether or not your trends or not. And I think 1:52:33.720 --> 1:52:36.080 it's important also to talk about the manager reporting stuff, 1:52:36.120 --> 1:52:40.719 because even manager reporting in general, like even like I've 1:52:40.760 --> 1:52:43.320 I've had things where I was in a school and 1:52:43.320 --> 1:52:45.280 my school essentially turned into a police state because there 1:52:45.280 --> 1:52:47.559 are people who I couldn't talk to about things because 1:52:47.560 --> 1:52:49.599 of things that happened to me that if if, if 1:52:49.720 --> 1:52:52.000 if any of them hurt it and one time someone 1:52:52.040 --> 1:52:54.080 didn't had to literally beg them, like on my knees 1:52:54.160 --> 1:52:56.320 not to report me, right, not not to report the 1:52:56.320 --> 1:52:58.599 thing that happened to me, because if you know, because 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:01.479 because if if that had and heard, like and if 1:53:01.479 --> 1:53:03.240 that had actually been reported, it would have you know, 1:53:03.240 --> 1:53:04.880 it would have started an enormous process and I would 1:53:04.880 --> 1:53:08.960 have had to, you know, like the I I would 1:53:09.000 --> 1:53:11.080 have had to, you know, deal with this, like this 1:53:11.120 --> 1:53:16.200 is an institutionalized thing. And that like the absolute terror 1:53:16.920 --> 1:53:21.760 that this kind of stuff creates where you have to, 1:53:22.520 --> 1:53:24.439 you know, you have to watch every single word that 1:53:24.479 --> 1:53:26.559 you say around all of the adults in your life 1:53:26.640 --> 1:53:29.680 because if you don't do it, they are going to 1:53:29.720 --> 1:53:33.040 report you. It is like the level of psychological terror 1:53:33.040 --> 1:53:36.599 you were inflicting on people is horrific, and that in 1:53:36.680 --> 1:53:40.320 and of itself just is a cost. Like and and 1:53:40.439 --> 1:53:43.360 it is something that is going to contribute to trans 1:53:43.439 --> 1:53:46.800 kids killing themselves, and it's it's just that simple. In 1:53:46.840 --> 1:53:49.160 that place, it is such a life and death issue, 1:53:49.320 --> 1:53:52.400 so you have to really be forced to go. Yeah, 1:53:52.840 --> 1:53:56.799 it goes into like it's very like ontological issue as well, um. 1:53:56.880 --> 1:53:59.200 And it deals with so many things around the nature 1:53:59.320 --> 1:54:01.679 of like the and what you're allowed to be inside 1:54:02.120 --> 1:54:06.240 as this societal construct um. And they're just trying to 1:54:06.439 --> 1:54:09.280 make that impossible for so many people, and they make 1:54:09.320 --> 1:54:13.880 everything so limited in their very narrow version of what 1:54:13.920 --> 1:54:17.800 they want the world to be that makes them feel comfortable. Yeah. 1:54:17.880 --> 1:54:19.880 And then and you know, because because it's not it's 1:54:19.880 --> 1:54:21.400 not what the world is, they have to use violence 1:54:21.439 --> 1:54:25.640 to do it. Yeah, So because it's stuck, because that 1:54:25.760 --> 1:54:27.800 is the rule that that is, That is the rules 1:54:27.800 --> 1:54:30.840 that we're playing by. That is the game we're playing. Yeah, my, my, 1:54:30.960 --> 1:54:35.440 only the the the default response to be for those 1:54:35.440 --> 1:54:38.080 people is yeah, they need to they need to fix 1:54:38.120 --> 1:54:40.240 their hearts or die and just get out of the way. 1:54:40.400 --> 1:54:44.120 And because it's that's they already have that for us, 1:54:44.440 --> 1:54:46.200 except they don't want us to fix their hearts. They 1:54:46.240 --> 1:54:48.720 just want us to die. So like we are way 1:54:48.800 --> 1:54:52.120 more empathetic than they are, um, because they can just 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:54.760 not be transphobic. They cannot, they can they can just 1:54:54.800 --> 1:54:57.480 not do these things. Um. But if they're gonna keep 1:54:57.520 --> 1:55:01.240 doubling down, then yeah, well that's if if you want 1:55:01.280 --> 1:55:03.720 to play by their rules, then we need to start 1:55:03.760 --> 1:55:05.600 playing by their rules because they're not going to have 1:55:05.680 --> 1:55:08.440 if they're not going to change the rules, then that 1:55:08.560 --> 1:55:10.080 is the that is the game that they want us 1:55:10.120 --> 1:55:16.240 to do. Um. And again like actual, like I wanted, 1:55:16.320 --> 1:55:18.360 I always, I always perhaps it's like this always want 1:55:18.360 --> 1:55:20.240 to kind of end with like here are some steps 1:55:20.240 --> 1:55:22.400 that you can like take that are relatively easy, and 1:55:23.000 --> 1:55:25.320 it's it's it's challenging for these types of some sorts 1:55:25.360 --> 1:55:27.880 of things like like there, yes, there is things you 1:55:27.880 --> 1:55:30.400 can do around you know, getting like making sure you're 1:55:30.440 --> 1:55:33.560 aware of what bills are being talked about in your 1:55:33.600 --> 1:55:37.880 local like your local area, contacting representatives to to do stuff, 1:55:37.920 --> 1:55:40.880 going to going to you know, either whether their school 1:55:40.880 --> 1:55:43.120 board meetings or stuff. But like a lot of the 1:55:43.120 --> 1:55:47.520 electoralist type of ideas around this feels always so inadequate, um, 1:55:47.560 --> 1:55:51.080 and that it feels always so fake. Um that you know, 1:55:51.200 --> 1:55:53.400 it's it's it is so much it feels a lot 1:55:53.440 --> 1:55:56.040 easier to that to like, you know, figure out different 1:55:56.080 --> 1:55:58.520 ways to actually help actual trans people in your area, 1:55:59.160 --> 1:56:01.840 um and give trans people money, um like because like 1:56:01.960 --> 1:56:04.720 that is often can be actually have a way more 1:56:04.720 --> 1:56:08.640 positive effects, at least effects that are like observable. But like, 1:56:08.760 --> 1:56:11.120 but there are also ways to stop this type of legislation, 1:56:11.160 --> 1:56:12.760 like there is that, there is, there is there is 1:56:12.760 --> 1:56:15.600 ways to do that, and I will I'll try to 1:56:15.600 --> 1:56:17.160 get into more of that kind of stuff as well 1:56:17.440 --> 1:56:20.200 once we get you know, our our week long of 1:56:20.680 --> 1:56:23.320 stuff about the war on trendspeople, um, that will be 1:56:23.400 --> 1:56:32.320 upcoming probably sometime in this in this next month. Yeah. Um. Remember, folks, 1:56:32.440 --> 1:56:36.360 if anybody ever suggests doing something for children that isn't 1:56:36.400 --> 1:56:39.200 providing them with food or shelter, you should probably hit 1:56:39.240 --> 1:56:41.880 that person because they're probably trying to fund something up 1:56:41.920 --> 1:56:48.560 for somebody. It's nearly always don't trust anyone who says 1:56:48.600 --> 1:56:51.920 there we need to do something to protect children that 1:56:52.080 --> 1:56:54.680 they're lying to you as as a rule, they're lying 1:56:54.720 --> 1:57:09.320 to you. Um anyway, you guys, Um, how's the boy 1:57:09.360 --> 1:57:13.880 that's Star Wars? Oh yeah, I love there's the there's 1:57:13.920 --> 1:57:16.880 the there's the the Obi WANs coming out that'll be good. 1:57:17.040 --> 1:57:21.360 I am excited for the obi WANs because speaking of speaking, 1:57:21.400 --> 1:57:24.440 speaking of you and McGregor. A few months ago, I 1:57:24.480 --> 1:57:28.080 saw the film Velvet gold Mine starring you and McGregor, 1:57:28.560 --> 1:57:32.040 which is a wonderful, like pseudo fictional film but about 1:57:32.200 --> 1:57:35.920 kind of the glam rock era inside Britain. It's very, 1:57:36.040 --> 1:57:39.120 very very gay, very whole bunch of a whole bunch 1:57:39.160 --> 1:57:43.440 of very good twink action. And there was one scene where, um, 1:57:43.600 --> 1:57:46.920 you McGregor's character, he's he's like, he's kind of based 1:57:46.920 --> 1:57:50.120 off one of the one of those types of music people. 1:57:50.160 --> 1:57:55.440 I forget, I forget which one it is. Um, I think, people, 1:57:56.440 --> 1:57:58.160 I think, I think, I think. I think he's playing 1:57:58.280 --> 1:58:00.200 like a kind of a version of that. But there's 1:58:00.240 --> 1:58:02.320 one scene where he's doing performance where he takes all 1:58:02.320 --> 1:58:03.760 of his close off on stage and you get to 1:58:03.760 --> 1:58:08.400 see you and McGregor's dick, um and yeah you do. 1:58:08.960 --> 1:58:11.840 So if if people, if people want to see a 1:58:11.920 --> 1:58:15.560 kind of David Bowie esque film starring you and McGregor, 1:58:15.560 --> 1:58:18.000 it has it has like a weird gay email, Christian 1:58:18.080 --> 1:58:20.640 bale As as a twink, and a whole bunch of 1:58:20.640 --> 1:58:23.840 other really really solid twink stuff. I would recommend watching 1:58:24.280 --> 1:58:26.680 Vella guld Mine. It has it has a lot of 1:58:26.680 --> 1:58:29.440 great stuff. Um and you do very early in the 1:58:29.480 --> 1:58:32.720 film get to see you and McGregor's penis just flapping 1:58:32.760 --> 1:58:36.320 around on stage and it is. It's pretty good. It's 1:58:37.120 --> 1:58:39.640 speaking of movies where you see a famous person's dick. 1:58:39.800 --> 1:58:42.200 If you want to see another famous penis the movie 1:58:42.240 --> 1:58:46.080 Galaxy Quest contains several shots and Tim Allen Dong. I 1:58:46.120 --> 1:58:49.240 don't want to see Tim Allen's hanging wang as as 1:58:49.280 --> 1:58:51.720 someone who's seen both Galaxy Quest and Velvea gould Mine 1:58:51.760 --> 1:58:55.200 and who appreciates both films. Dearly You and You and 1:58:55.280 --> 1:59:00.960 McGregor is miles hotter than Tim Allen Dong. Shot is 1:59:01.040 --> 1:59:03.920 not hot. It's not pleased. It is not supposed to be. 1:59:03.960 --> 1:59:08.920 He has hungover in his like bathrobe leaning over. But 1:59:09.280 --> 1:59:10.640 if you want, if you if you want to see 1:59:10.840 --> 1:59:14.360 see rain or Fastbenders, Dick Germany and Autumn. Okay, that 1:59:14.440 --> 1:59:16.560 that's I could. I could. I could do that very 1:59:16.600 --> 1:59:20.760 weird movie. However, alright, alright, if you in terms of 1:59:20.800 --> 1:59:22.920 in terms of actionable things to make you feel better, 1:59:23.040 --> 1:59:25.560 everyone go watch Vela gold Mine because it has some 1:59:25.680 --> 1:59:29.040 dairy it has some very good gender play, has wonderful, 1:59:29.320 --> 1:59:32.320 wonderful suf around gender, wonderfu stuff around gayness. And yeah, 1:59:32.360 --> 1:59:34.560 the film from like the nineties where there it was 1:59:34.600 --> 1:59:36.680 like lots of gay fucking and you're like, wow, how 1:59:36.760 --> 1:59:39.720 is this filmmate in the nineties, because it is a 1:59:39.720 --> 1:59:42.320 whole bunch of like big name actors now who were 1:59:42.360 --> 1:59:44.920 like unknown at the time, all being gay and sucking 1:59:44.960 --> 1:59:48.520 each other, and you're like, holy sh it, alright, So 1:59:49.600 --> 1:59:52.920 that is the Uh, that's what we got. That there's 1:59:52.920 --> 1:59:57.120 your action items. Action items, Go watch, Go watch Velvet 1:59:57.160 --> 1:59:59.600 gold Mine. Make everyone you know watch Velvet gold Mine 1:59:59.760 --> 2:00:02.760 and make you feel good about gender takes, screen grabs 2:00:02.760 --> 2:00:05.520 of Ellin McGregor's dick, make Berner Twitter accounts and just 2:00:05.640 --> 2:00:08.720 start posting. Just just get it out there, get it 2:00:08.760 --> 2:00:10.960 out there, so one it needs to know. Throw some 2:00:11.000 --> 2:00:13.120 of Tim Allen's dick out there too. Don't be don't 2:00:13.120 --> 2:00:16.440 be choosy. Stick it all all the dicks, all right, 2:00:17.280 --> 2:00:28.520 that's gonna be the day. That's that's the show. On 2:00:28.560 --> 2:00:32.360 a cold morning in seven, Sandy Beale was found shot 2:00:32.400 --> 2:00:36.240 to death in her car. There's no way, it's just 2:00:36.360 --> 2:00:39.360 it's just no way that it's gonna be. I couldn't 2:00:39.360 --> 2:00:42.400 believe it. Her death was ruled a suicide, but her 2:00:42.440 --> 2:00:46.680 family has never bought the official story. Instead, they suspected 2:00:46.720 --> 2:00:49.440 a cover up. I didn't take any of their crap 2:00:50.160 --> 2:00:54.160 because I could tell that they were hiding something. My 2:00:54.280 --> 2:00:57.480 name is Melissa Johnson. I'm a reporter who covers violence 2:00:57.520 --> 2:01:01.560 against women. My new podcast, What Happened to Sandy Beale, 2:01:01.720 --> 2:01:05.680 takes a closer look at Sandy's mysterious death. Sander could 2:01:05.680 --> 2:01:09.320 have been retarded by now she's doing sex on the 2:01:09.400 --> 2:01:12.920 ground because when Sandy was found dead, it suddenly made 2:01:12.920 --> 2:01:15.840 a lot of people very nervous. She had a lot 2:01:15.880 --> 2:01:19.600 going for her. I can't imagine in one year things 2:01:19.680 --> 2:01:23.920 going that tragically wrong. Listen to What Happened to Sandy 2:01:23.960 --> 2:01:27.120 Beale starting March nine on the I Heart Radio app, 2:01:27.480 --> 2:01:31.280 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Look at 2:01:31.320 --> 2:01:34.760 your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. 2:01:35.120 --> 2:01:38.240 It's a storybook world for them. You look and see 2:01:38.240 --> 2:01:41.240 a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard 2:01:41.400 --> 2:01:45.240 with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. 2:01:45.720 --> 2:01:48.440 They see a windy path that could lead to adventure, 2:01:48.800 --> 2:01:53.240 and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? 2:01:53.600 --> 2:01:56.440 Find a forest near you and start exploring it. Discover 2:01:56.520 --> 2:01:58.800 the Forest dot org. Brought to you by the United 2:01:58.800 --> 2:02:03.800 States Forest Service and the Council. Okay, it's de Leeper. 2:02:03.920 --> 2:02:05.959 I'm here to tell you about my brand new podcast, 2:02:06.000 --> 2:02:10.280 de Relieber at your service. I'll be sitting down with 2:02:10.320 --> 2:02:13.240 the world's most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them tick, 2:02:13.360 --> 2:02:16.400 what they've learned from their successes, failures, and the obstacles 2:02:16.440 --> 2:02:20.640 life has thrown at them. We're going deep with people 2:02:20.680 --> 2:02:24.760 revolutionizing not just their own industries, but also culture more broadly. 2:02:25.320 --> 2:02:28.040 From Lisa Today, the author redefining what it means to 2:02:28.080 --> 2:02:32.280 tell women's stories, to the fashion industry virtuoso Olivier Roosting. 2:02:34.440 --> 2:02:36.280 You'll even hear me break bread with some of the 2:02:36.320 --> 2:02:40.080 most iconic and disseous names in pop culture, like Sir 2:02:40.160 --> 2:02:43.640 Elton John. After a lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments, 2:02:43.640 --> 2:02:45.880 a lot of betrayals, It's turned out to be the 2:02:45.880 --> 2:02:49.080 most wonderful life right now that I've could ever imagined. 2:02:49.320 --> 2:02:51.160 I can't wait to share all of this and more 2:02:51.200 --> 2:02:53.880 with you. Listen to do Relieber at your service on 2:02:53.920 --> 2:02:57.080 the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you 2:02:57.120 --> 2:03:12.400 get your podcasts. Welcome, it could happen here. A podcast 2:03:12.960 --> 2:03:15.880 that is uh you know this this this, This is 2:03:15.920 --> 2:03:18.800 the podcast about the world falling apart. The world is 2:03:19.440 --> 2:03:23.760 in fact falling apart extremely quickly right now. And I'm 2:03:23.760 --> 2:03:26.120 I'm your host, Christopher, and I am here today to 2:03:26.200 --> 2:03:28.920 talk about an immense occupying army with an extensive record 2:03:28.960 --> 2:03:31.720 of torture and extradicial killings. I am referring, of course 2:03:31.760 --> 2:03:35.800 to the Chicago Police Departments and with with me to 2:03:35.880 --> 2:03:40.760 talk about yet more just absolute horrors that this department 2:03:40.800 --> 2:03:45.000 has committed here and worldwide. I have Raven, who is 2:03:45.000 --> 2:03:47.960 a journalist in Chicago Free Media. Raven, Welcome to the 2:03:47.960 --> 2:03:51.320 show and thank you for joining us. Hi, thank you 2:03:51.400 --> 2:03:54.840 for having me. Yeah, how how how have you been 2:03:54.840 --> 2:04:01.960 holding up in these uh oh boy, things are going bad? Yeah, 2:04:02.000 --> 2:04:04.879 you know, we uh we have discussed doing this interview 2:04:04.920 --> 2:04:08.000 earlier this week, and I don't think either of us 2:04:08.080 --> 2:04:16.160 expected uh Russia to invade Ukraine. Last night was yeah, 2:04:16.200 --> 2:04:19.080 and that wasn't even the yeah, it was the convoys 2:04:19.080 --> 2:04:20.520 about you know, this is this is a this is 2:04:20.560 --> 2:04:25.880 a a time of chaos and death. Um. But I 2:04:26.360 --> 2:04:30.160 think it's important to understand that he has always has 2:04:30.160 --> 2:04:34.880 always been a time of chaos and death. And yeah, 2:04:34.920 --> 2:04:38.600 and I think especially where the Chicago Police Department is concerned. Um, 2:04:38.680 --> 2:04:43.000 we've talked about, we've we've talked about some of their 2:04:43.040 --> 2:04:46.200 more famous crimes on the show. But I wanted to 2:04:46.200 --> 2:04:49.400 have ravenon to talk about a police killing that I 2:04:49.440 --> 2:04:52.280 don't think got that much attention. I mean not even 2:04:52.680 --> 2:04:55.440 because I got a lot of in Chicago, but even 2:04:55.480 --> 2:04:57.600 inside Chicago, I don't think it's as well known as 2:04:57.880 --> 2:05:00.880 some of the other police killings. And that's the killing 2:05:01.000 --> 2:05:06.640 of Rikia Boyd. Um. Yeah, do you want to walk 2:05:06.720 --> 2:05:12.920 us through how basically what what happened the night that 2:05:13.240 --> 2:05:17.280 uh don't I servant killed Riquet Boyd? And yeah, we 2:05:17.280 --> 2:05:20.680 can start from there. Sure, sure, I mean there's some 2:05:20.720 --> 2:05:25.480 context here for sure about sort of the the way 2:05:25.480 --> 2:05:29.440 we ignore the murders of black women specifically. Um. And 2:05:29.480 --> 2:05:34.400 you know, Rickia Boyd was was murdered after sort of 2:05:34.440 --> 2:05:38.080 like the first wave of of national Black Lives Matter protests. 2:05:38.080 --> 2:05:40.120 So it wasn't like it wasn't on the radar right 2:05:40.200 --> 2:05:45.360 that people weren't talking about police killing black people. Um, 2:05:45.440 --> 2:05:47.480 but there, you know, there is this long standing issue 2:05:47.480 --> 2:05:51.160 of course, was like the killings of black women specifically 2:05:51.320 --> 2:05:54.480 not getting as much attention, right, And this was just 2:05:55.440 --> 2:06:01.120 such a horrible, horrible incident that, like, I mean, looking 2:06:01.120 --> 2:06:03.000 at the details, even even though I live here and 2:06:03.040 --> 2:06:04.960 I was like around when it happened, and some of 2:06:04.960 --> 2:06:07.160 our other you know, the other journalists and are collective 2:06:07.880 --> 2:06:11.480 covered the protests and and and the the court drama 2:06:11.480 --> 2:06:14.560 and everything, it still just blows my mind, um, the 2:06:14.600 --> 2:06:20.840 way this happened, and um, you know, ultimately the most 2:06:20.880 --> 2:06:22.400 important thing to take away from it is that her 2:06:22.440 --> 2:06:26.800 family never saw a justice. He walked away, He walked 2:06:26.800 --> 2:06:31.960 away from the incident and then went on to start 2:06:32.000 --> 2:06:35.920 training police in Latin America, which we can talk about also. 2:06:36.880 --> 2:06:39.360 So so not only did this, did the Chicago police 2:06:39.360 --> 2:06:43.080 officer who was off duty with an unregistered gun murder 2:06:43.080 --> 2:06:46.200 and innocent twenty two year old black women hanging out 2:06:46.200 --> 2:06:49.040 with her friends in a park. He then got a 2:06:49.120 --> 2:06:53.280 job with like a tactical training institute to travel to 2:06:53.440 --> 2:06:59.480 Honduras and train police there. Yeah. I think, yeah, we can. 2:06:59.640 --> 2:07:01.840 I think we yeah, we definitely will be getting to 2:07:01.880 --> 2:07:06.560 the sort of international ankle of this. But yeah, the 2:07:06.600 --> 2:07:10.400 export of American policing essentially. Yeah, but I guess for 2:07:10.440 --> 2:07:13.600 people who aren't familiar with what happened, UM can can 2:07:13.640 --> 2:07:19.120 cantinue walk through that. Yeah, so, so servant showed up 2:07:19.640 --> 2:07:25.840 um at a park with an unregistered gun. Um he 2:07:26.280 --> 2:07:30.440 you know, witnesses reported that he smelled like alcohol that night. 2:07:30.520 --> 2:07:32.280 He may have been drinking. I don't know if that 2:07:32.360 --> 2:07:37.840 that was ever verified, but certainly wouldn't be surprising. Um 2:07:38.240 --> 2:07:40.640 showed up at this park to complain about a group 2:07:40.680 --> 2:07:48.440 of people making noise, and one ofver Key Avoid's friends 2:07:48.680 --> 2:07:51.080 approached the car with a cell phone in his hand, 2:07:51.840 --> 2:07:54.280 which Servant then would go on to say, I thought 2:07:54.280 --> 2:07:58.920 was a gun and started firing shots and shot Roky 2:07:59.000 --> 2:08:03.560 Avoid in the head. Um he wasn't on duty, He 2:08:03.600 --> 2:08:07.360 wasn't actively policing. This was totally totally outside of the 2:08:07.360 --> 2:08:14.160 realm of duty incident, right, yeah, Um, And no weapon 2:08:14.240 --> 2:08:17.080 was ever recovered from the scene, Nothing like that. I mean, 2:08:17.160 --> 2:08:22.200 it was there was no in no universe was there 2:08:22.240 --> 2:08:27.040 any justification for this, right, It just defies it defies 2:08:27.120 --> 2:08:31.960 logic like that that it could even happen this way. Um. 2:08:32.040 --> 2:08:35.120 And after it happened, you know, so not only did 2:08:35.120 --> 2:08:39.320 he kill Rickie avoid in this park, um, but after 2:08:39.360 --> 2:08:41.280 it happened, there was there was just a lot of 2:08:41.320 --> 2:08:43.320 like there were a lot of missteps in in the 2:08:43.400 --> 2:08:48.080 justice system. Um. And it has been I think, I 2:08:48.120 --> 2:08:51.200 want to say, like seventeen years at that point since 2:08:51.240 --> 2:08:57.560 a Chicago cop had actually been charged with with murder, right, Um, 2:08:57.680 --> 2:08:59.600 So it has been a long time since there had 2:08:59.640 --> 2:09:09.400 been even any accountability. And um, basically the prosecutor there 2:09:09.480 --> 2:09:12.600 was something called a directed verdict where the prosecutor essentially 2:09:13.480 --> 2:09:17.920 under charged him intentionally or we think it was intentionally, 2:09:18.880 --> 2:09:23.120 um with with like reckless conduct and manslaughter. And the 2:09:23.200 --> 2:09:30.960 judge tossed the case because the judge was saying, you know, 2:09:31.120 --> 2:09:33.800 it didn't even meet the criteria for for reckless conduct 2:09:33.800 --> 2:09:36.760 because it was clearly first degree murder. And then he 2:09:36.800 --> 2:09:40.600 couldn't be tried again because of rules surrounding double jeopardy, 2:09:40.960 --> 2:09:45.880 which is like just a it's just like what like 2:09:46.040 --> 2:09:48.680 it's it's such like I was reading this like it's passling, 2:09:48.800 --> 2:09:52.680 like it's like this whole thing is like it's it's 2:09:52.800 --> 2:09:56.160 very like very very seemed very clearly to fail. It's like, yeah, 2:09:56.200 --> 2:09:58.520 like we're we're gonna, we're gonna intentionally have a case 2:09:59.000 --> 2:10:01.080 when we try this guy with things that you that 2:10:01.120 --> 2:10:04.000 you just you cannot convictim of because like again it's 2:10:04.040 --> 2:10:07.040 it's it's not it's not like manslaughter. He just he 2:10:07.520 --> 2:10:13.000 drove up and shot her. He very very clearly with 2:10:13.080 --> 2:10:17.360 intention shot Ricky Boyd. And it very much seems like 2:10:17.400 --> 2:10:19.360 they planned this out that they were like and you know, 2:10:19.600 --> 2:10:21.560 this is we talked about this on on the last 2:10:22.000 --> 2:10:26.879 CPD episode, Like prosecutors collaborate with judges and the police 2:10:27.080 --> 2:10:32.560 constantly because that's just how the thing called the justice 2:10:32.560 --> 2:10:35.600 system works. Um. But like yeah, like this is like 2:10:35.640 --> 2:10:39.480 a parcripularly egregious example of them just setting up a 2:10:39.520 --> 2:10:44.800 case that they know that they just knew would fail exactly. 2:10:44.920 --> 2:10:48.480 And this is the same prosecutor who was ousted in 2:10:48.520 --> 2:10:54.360 the aftermath of the Laca McDonald murder. Um. You know, 2:10:54.400 --> 2:10:57.080 there were there were very large protests. Then there was 2:10:57.080 --> 2:10:59.560 a hashtag going on social media. Her name is Anita 2:10:59.560 --> 2:11:03.800 alvarett As. The hashtag was by Anita yeah, and it 2:11:03.880 --> 2:11:06.280 was Anita alphres Like I think people outside the city 2:11:06.600 --> 2:11:09.200 probably didn't. I don't know about much about this, but 2:11:09.240 --> 2:11:15.920 like this Anita Alvarez was like so hated that like 2:11:15.920 --> 2:11:19.640 like every like like everyone in the city basically worked 2:11:19.640 --> 2:11:22.600 together a runner out like you had, like you had 2:11:22.640 --> 2:11:28.280 like liberals and anarchist groups like working together like like ever, 2:11:28.480 --> 2:11:31.240 like everyone in this like all like the the the electoralists, 2:11:31.280 --> 2:11:34.560 nanti electoralists, like the people who just like have no 2:11:34.680 --> 2:11:37.040 politics basically whatsoever. Like it was, it was just sort 2:11:37.040 --> 2:11:42.240 of it was just really incredible like coalition because she, 2:11:42.960 --> 2:11:45.760 like just the stuff Anita Alpharez is doing is just 2:11:46.080 --> 2:11:49.440 so egregious that everyone was able to find a way 2:11:49.480 --> 2:11:52.720 to put aside their differences on just the logic of 2:11:53.040 --> 2:11:58.600 get her out right right. But you know, to know 2:11:58.840 --> 2:12:01.280 again that was in the for matha of the Lakoha 2:12:01.320 --> 2:12:05.360 McDonald's shooting. And you know, it wasn't it didn't what 2:12:05.440 --> 2:12:10.640 happened with Rickia Boyd wasn't enough for those large protests. 2:12:10.760 --> 2:12:14.200 And and this is not to like Denni Grade or 2:12:14.240 --> 2:12:16.360 to mean the people who did come out in protests, 2:12:16.360 --> 2:12:20.040 because it's still like like there were still protests, don't 2:12:20.040 --> 2:12:23.600 get me wrong, Like people showed up for Rakia. But 2:12:24.600 --> 2:12:28.240 the difference in people showing up for Rakia and people 2:12:28.320 --> 2:12:31.720 showing up for black men being shot, you know, like 2:12:31.800 --> 2:12:33.840 that that's something that black women have drawn attention to you. 2:12:33.920 --> 2:12:35.240 You know, they're like, why don't you care when we 2:12:35.240 --> 2:12:40.520 get murdered? Um, And it's just it's become this sort 2:12:40.560 --> 2:12:44.640 of um, you know, ongoing chance. Like if you go 2:12:44.680 --> 2:12:48.600 to any Chicago racial justice protests, you will hear people say, 2:12:49.120 --> 2:12:51.520 we do this for Lakwan, we do this for Rakiya, 2:12:52.720 --> 2:12:56.280 because it's just one of those names that, for whatever reason, 2:12:56.520 --> 2:12:58.360 based on what was going on in the media at 2:12:58.400 --> 2:13:02.560 the time, just like didn't make its way outside of 2:13:02.640 --> 2:13:07.000 Chicago very much. Um. And we're seeing a similar sort 2:13:07.000 --> 2:13:09.560 of situation right now with what happened with the mirrorlock 2:13:09.680 --> 2:13:13.440 in Minneapolis. Right Like that was something where I think 2:13:13.840 --> 2:13:17.040 a lot of us thought, Okay, wow, this this is 2:13:17.040 --> 2:13:19.880 gonna this is going to explode. You know, this is 2:13:19.880 --> 2:13:23.080 such just a horrible miscarriage of justice, Like how could 2:13:23.080 --> 2:13:27.400 this happen? Um, Surely there will be massive protests again, 2:13:27.480 --> 2:13:30.240 you know, something like that. And of course, you know, 2:13:30.320 --> 2:13:33.080 Minneapolis was out there. We had like some small actions 2:13:33.080 --> 2:13:37.200 here in Chicago, but didn't really catch fire, so to say, 2:13:37.520 --> 2:13:39.640 I mean, I think that there's always sort of cycles 2:13:39.640 --> 2:13:42.320 of this where you know that there's cycles where you 2:13:42.360 --> 2:13:46.240 get these massive protesting cycles you don't but you know, 2:13:46.240 --> 2:13:47.640 and I think this is one of the things with 2:13:47.880 --> 2:13:49.240 that you can look at with the cube way to 2:13:49.360 --> 2:13:53.600 where it's it's like, regardless of whether people are in 2:13:53.640 --> 2:13:59.360 the streets or not, the killing continues. And yeah, and 2:13:59.480 --> 2:14:01.800 I think that just just sort of that's an extremely 2:14:02.800 --> 2:14:05.280 grim thing to live with, but that that just you know, 2:14:05.360 --> 2:14:08.440 that that that's just what the police is, right and 2:14:08.560 --> 2:14:12.520 until you know, until they are actually stopped, you're just 2:14:12.520 --> 2:14:16.640 gonna keep getting this cycle of I don't even know 2:14:16.680 --> 2:14:19.240 if select selective outrage is the right word, but you 2:14:19.280 --> 2:14:23.240 get these cycles of people who get murdered and there's 2:14:23.240 --> 2:14:25.240 this protests and people who get murdered can get forgotten 2:14:26.680 --> 2:14:31.800 and yeah, yeah, yeah, And and it really does seem 2:14:31.840 --> 2:14:35.400 to be kind of you know, there's a lot of 2:14:35.480 --> 2:14:39.440 layers to it, like like obviously the misogyny against black 2:14:39.480 --> 2:14:42.760 women is part of it, and I think the media 2:14:42.960 --> 2:14:46.120 just you know, is a part of it too, Like 2:14:46.440 --> 2:14:49.560 I mean, I'm a part of the media in a sense, 2:14:49.560 --> 2:14:51.800 but we're alternative media, so it's a little bit different. 2:14:51.880 --> 2:14:54.840 But you know, like there are there are choices made 2:14:54.840 --> 2:14:59.440 behind closed doors about what stories to follow and and amplify. 2:15:00.000 --> 2:15:04.080 And um, I will say. You know what I will 2:15:04.120 --> 2:15:08.280 say is I think because of what happened in twenty 2:15:08.360 --> 2:15:12.440 I think there's a lot more scrutiny on Chicago police now, 2:15:13.800 --> 2:15:16.800 at least more mainstream scrutiny of them than there was 2:15:18.280 --> 2:15:23.360 back in when Rikiya was murdered. Um. And that's not 2:15:23.400 --> 2:15:25.560 to say that we're doing enough because we have, because 2:15:25.560 --> 2:15:31.200 we absolutely are not. But I I think did in 2:15:31.280 --> 2:15:33.720 some way, you know, push things just like a little 2:15:33.720 --> 2:15:35.880 bit further, if that makes sense. That you know, there 2:15:35.920 --> 2:15:41.000 are some more liberal mainstream types of people talking about 2:15:41.040 --> 2:15:44.360 the horrors of Chicago policing and and all of that. 2:15:44.400 --> 2:15:46.560 But you know, when it comes to Chicago police, like 2:15:46.720 --> 2:15:51.520 I just they're they're apparatus is so massive, like not 2:15:51.600 --> 2:15:53.960 just from like the funding they get, but like their 2:15:54.040 --> 2:15:58.160 media and pr you know, the prosecutors and the judges 2:15:58.240 --> 2:16:02.480 like you mentioned, are absolutely the part of the policing apparatus. 2:16:02.520 --> 2:16:07.000 Like they're not separate, right, It's prosecutors are cops, and 2:16:07.040 --> 2:16:09.720 we have a prosecutor for a mayor and she is 2:16:09.760 --> 2:16:12.520 a cop like like and and you know it was 2:16:12.560 --> 2:16:15.560 black youth who tried so hard to speak up about 2:16:15.600 --> 2:16:18.040 this before she was elected and and said like Lori 2:16:18.200 --> 2:16:23.080 lifebut is a cop, and people didn't listen to them. 2:16:23.160 --> 2:16:25.440 And that's where we're at now, where we have this 2:16:26.480 --> 2:16:30.040 this prosecutor for a mayor who's because of her background, 2:16:30.080 --> 2:16:33.119 like she can only view things through a punitive lens, 2:16:33.160 --> 2:16:37.200 Like her answer to everything is just punishment. How can 2:16:37.280 --> 2:16:41.440 we how can we punish people? Yeah, the only things 2:16:41.480 --> 2:16:43.400 she was trying to do recently was she wanted to 2:16:43.440 --> 2:16:50.200 do these like basically this measure where they called it 2:16:50.240 --> 2:16:52.920 like an anti gang funding thing, but it was basically 2:16:52.959 --> 2:16:55.360 just like if there's a group of people, you can 2:16:55.400 --> 2:16:58.640 just take the cops and just take money from them. 2:16:58.680 --> 2:17:01.080 And it was like it was just an incredible things 2:17:01.120 --> 2:17:03.360 like it was it was you know, part of what's 2:17:03.360 --> 2:17:05.119 going on here is that I've talked about this before, 2:17:05.240 --> 2:17:09.279 but like Lori Lightfoot is you know, at the time, 2:17:09.720 --> 2:17:11.720 I think people voted for her partially because they just 2:17:11.760 --> 2:17:14.760 didn't listen. And the north Siders were just like, oh hey, 2:17:14.760 --> 2:17:18.800 look it's Loria Lightfoot. But then you know, like part 2:17:18.840 --> 2:17:20.760 part of it was she she she ran as like 2:17:20.760 --> 2:17:23.959 the anti machine candidate, and it was like, no, she's 2:17:24.000 --> 2:17:26.800 just a cop. But like I think the just thing is, 2:17:26.840 --> 2:17:30.440 you know, like she she's like incredibly widely hated, like 2:17:30.520 --> 2:17:33.879 to the point where like, you know, the Chicago City 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:37.959 Council is like not notably a a anti police body, 2:17:38.320 --> 2:17:41.640 but like even the city Council was like, you can't 2:17:41.680 --> 2:17:45.720 do this. Like then they you know, they actually blocked 2:17:46.480 --> 2:17:48.600 I think if if if, if I'm if I'm getting 2:17:48.600 --> 2:17:50.320 my my my facts right on this, like I'm prett 2:17:50.360 --> 2:17:53.280 I'm pretty sure that they blocked Life with reposal because 2:17:53.320 --> 2:17:57.840 it was just like yeah, and that that's been one 2:17:57.879 --> 2:17:59.640 of the things that was like we've had a couple 2:17:59.840 --> 2:18:04.640 of like weird kind of like attempts to reign the 2:18:04.640 --> 2:18:08.000 CPD in, but they're not really happening because of like 2:18:08.520 --> 2:18:11.440 anti police sentiment. They're basically happening because the city council's 2:18:11.440 --> 2:18:17.760 feuding with a mayor. Yeah, and and you know I've 2:18:17.760 --> 2:18:23.240 seen it, like it's it's she's such an god, I 2:18:23.280 --> 2:18:26.640 could the figure of Mayor lor lor lifebook. I mean, 2:18:26.680 --> 2:18:30.160 it just makes no sense, right because she's hated by 2:18:30.480 --> 2:18:33.600 people on the left, you know, who obviously are anti police. Thing, 2:18:33.800 --> 2:18:37.480 she's also hated by the police. Yeah, I mean it's 2:18:39.520 --> 2:18:44.360 just like yeah she I mean, if you go through 2:18:44.400 --> 2:18:48.480 any of the conservative like cop blogs and and Twitter accounts, 2:18:48.480 --> 2:18:51.960 you know she proba police are very active on social media, right, 2:18:51.959 --> 2:18:55.040 which is you know, it's whole, a whole thing in 2:18:55.120 --> 2:18:59.160 of itself. These people, you know, they shouldn't be pope 2:18:59.160 --> 2:19:03.640 broadcasting that on social media that they do. But she's 2:19:03.760 --> 2:19:08.680 universally hated by everyone at this point. Um, So you know, 2:19:11.080 --> 2:19:13.119 it's just been a really it's been a really tough 2:19:13.160 --> 2:19:17.920 couple of years for Chicago since the riots, especially because 2:19:19.160 --> 2:19:22.920 Chicago just the word has become so loaded in the 2:19:23.000 --> 2:19:28.520 national media, right, like it's become this this this racist 2:19:28.560 --> 2:19:32.920 boogeyman essentially for like what what could happen to your 2:19:32.920 --> 2:19:37.800 city if if the woke mobs successfully defund police or 2:19:37.840 --> 2:19:42.359 you know whatever, which is completely at odds with reality 2:19:42.480 --> 2:19:45.120 because at no point have we defunded the police, Like 2:19:45.120 --> 2:19:47.840 they just keeps increased. Yeah, like what what's what what's 2:19:47.840 --> 2:19:51.360 their budget is? Like is it I want to say 2:19:51.400 --> 2:19:55.360 it's the total budget, but I think that's low it's 2:19:55.400 --> 2:19:57.640 something like that. I mean, it's billions of dollars, Like 2:19:57.680 --> 2:20:03.720 it's we're pumping billions of dollars into this standing army 2:20:03.959 --> 2:20:09.280 that is that is basically occupying of travel's budget goes 2:20:09.320 --> 2:20:16.560 to the police department, right right, And you know all 2:20:16.600 --> 2:20:21.320 of that money could obviously be sent on other things, 2:20:21.520 --> 2:20:25.560 and and we know, like we know what reduces crime. 2:20:26.040 --> 2:20:29.240 I mean, obviously we could get into like the category 2:20:29.280 --> 2:20:31.280 of what even is a crime? Right, Like, there are 2:20:31.440 --> 2:20:34.800 certainly lots of things that shouldn't be labeled crimes that 2:20:34.879 --> 2:20:41.879 are but we know that communities with resources don't have 2:20:42.040 --> 2:20:46.640 significant violent crime problems. Like we know that lifting people 2:20:46.640 --> 2:20:50.760 out of poverty and giving them opportunities and homes and 2:20:50.760 --> 2:20:53.600 all of these things, like we know that that reduces 2:20:53.680 --> 2:20:59.520 in our personal harm. And instead we just keep looking 2:20:59.520 --> 2:21:03.080 at everything through this lens of punishment and how punitive 2:21:03.120 --> 2:21:11.039 we can be. Yeah, yeah, and it's been I don't know. 2:21:14.120 --> 2:21:17.680 The Chicago Police Department is just it's just an absolute 2:21:17.720 --> 2:21:22.240 horror show. Um. And it's a horror show. And and 2:21:22.280 --> 2:21:24.320 they're also like it's a horror show not just because 2:21:24.320 --> 2:21:28.360 of how evil they are, but also because they're incompetent right, Yeah, 2:21:29.400 --> 2:21:32.000 Like you've got them doing all of these really bad 2:21:32.000 --> 2:21:35.760 things and then they also just like struggle to to 2:21:36.040 --> 2:21:39.520 cover up their crime, and then they're messing up like 2:21:39.600 --> 2:21:45.840 along the way at every step. Yeah, and it's yeah, 2:21:47.360 --> 2:21:51.520 I don't know, they have the cpds like it's they 2:21:51.600 --> 2:21:52.920 have this kind of you know, I mean, I don't know, 2:21:52.920 --> 2:21:55.000 I don't know how you exactly unique it is. But 2:21:55.000 --> 2:21:58.000 but I think going back to our sort of theory 2:21:58.040 --> 2:21:59.840 of like every police department has one thing at the 2:22:00.000 --> 2:22:02.240 really good at it, the CBD has this unique combination 2:22:02.280 --> 2:22:06.000 of like incompetence, torture, and crime that they do. That's 2:22:06.080 --> 2:22:08.800 like I think, so I think sets it apart from 2:22:08.800 --> 2:22:14.160 a lot of other UM police departments. I think that's 2:22:14.160 --> 2:22:16.920 a good place to sort of jump off into the 2:22:16.959 --> 2:22:20.200 second I guess part of the Rickyed Boyd story, or 2:22:20.600 --> 2:22:22.879 really it seems to be the Ricked Boyd story. It's 2:22:22.920 --> 2:22:27.840 the story of Dante Servant, which is his role in 2:22:28.920 --> 2:22:37.240 essentially exporting American policing and the horrors of UM, the 2:22:37.240 --> 2:22:39.240 horror of the American police system, the horrors of sort 2:22:39.240 --> 2:22:42.560 of American imperialism to other countries because it is not 2:22:42.680 --> 2:22:45.760 enough that the CPD murders people here, they've also got 2:22:45.760 --> 2:22:50.200 to do it other places, right, right, And and so 2:22:50.280 --> 2:22:53.440 there was a there was a Chicago Reader piece written 2:22:53.440 --> 2:22:59.720 about this UM back in February. Servants not mentioned in it, 2:23:00.000 --> 2:23:02.680 but it was a really good story. I recommend people 2:23:02.680 --> 2:23:04.840 look it up because you know, some of this research 2:23:05.040 --> 2:23:07.800 is not like my original research, right, it's it stems 2:23:07.800 --> 2:23:10.800 from the research that people with the Invisible Institute did. 2:23:10.920 --> 2:23:17.160 But essentially, you know, there are Chicago police officers and 2:23:17.280 --> 2:23:20.840 there's one in particular. His name is Aaron Cunningham. He's 2:23:20.879 --> 2:23:27.960 the man who UM founded this Tactical Training Institute UM 2:23:28.160 --> 2:23:31.640 that go you know, they go abroad, like they go 2:23:31.720 --> 2:23:36.760 to different countries and and it's private, privately funded though 2:23:36.840 --> 2:23:41.080 they claim to be working with with the SAIS, and 2:23:41.240 --> 2:23:43.520 there's a lot of like weird gray area there where 2:23:43.520 --> 2:23:45.640 there's not a lot of oversight and nobody really knows, 2:23:45.760 --> 2:23:49.480 like are you getting federal money to do this? Are 2:23:49.520 --> 2:23:52.000 you just saying you are, like like what's the deal? Right? 2:23:52.040 --> 2:23:55.199 But the Cunningham was essentially like a crooked cop who 2:23:56.000 --> 2:23:59.600 funded this tactical Training Institute so that they go overseas 2:23:59.600 --> 2:24:06.480 to under resource countries with underresourced police departments and train 2:24:06.640 --> 2:24:09.360 them and how to be police. They train them in 2:24:10.280 --> 2:24:15.280 crowd control, they trained them in like narcotics and drug investigations, 2:24:15.320 --> 2:24:18.840 they train them in like gang warfare, you know, all 2:24:18.840 --> 2:24:22.160 of these things, right, And these are countries that have 2:24:22.920 --> 2:24:27.720 tremendous issues with like you know, outright warfare going on 2:24:27.879 --> 2:24:33.840 between gangs and the existing police forces. Right, so they're 2:24:33.840 --> 2:24:36.960 in desperate need of of of aid of assistance. And 2:24:36.959 --> 2:24:39.720 and of course, like some of these conflicts that are 2:24:39.760 --> 2:24:43.240 going on stem from American imperialism to begin with, right, 2:24:44.480 --> 2:24:48.200 So it's like we caused the problems. Then we're gonna 2:24:48.200 --> 2:24:52.520 come in and like send a bunch of cops over who, 2:24:52.600 --> 2:24:55.680 like you know, have extensive misconduct records in their in 2:24:55.720 --> 2:24:57.560 their home cities, and some of them have even just 2:24:57.600 --> 2:25:00.480 like murdered innocent women in the park. And we're going 2:25:00.520 --> 2:25:04.760 to have them train your guys into how to be cops. Yeah, 2:25:04.959 --> 2:25:10.760 and and yeah, you know that that goes about as 2:25:10.760 --> 2:25:14.400 well as you would expect it to, which is one 2:25:14.400 --> 2:25:15.880 of one of the things that the reader piece talks 2:25:15.879 --> 2:25:20.040 about is so one of they these guys get brought 2:25:20.080 --> 2:25:22.680 in to train a bunch of cops. Now Salvador, after 2:25:22.800 --> 2:25:25.440 the Salvadorian police do a bunch of horrible massacres, and 2:25:25.480 --> 2:25:28.240 then they trained these cops, and then the cops immediately 2:25:28.240 --> 2:25:31.359 turned around and also again do a bunch of horrible massacres. 2:25:31.879 --> 2:25:37.280 And it's this, it's this, you know, I mean, I 2:25:37.360 --> 2:25:41.600 I don't want to de emphasize the fact that like 2:25:42.560 --> 2:25:46.240 the like Al Salvador for example, like is a place 2:25:46.320 --> 2:25:49.480 that has its own like native right wing like it 2:25:49.600 --> 2:25:51.640 had there, like it has his own Salvadorian like right 2:25:51.640 --> 2:25:54.360 wing death squads, right, and they they back by the CIA. 2:25:54.440 --> 2:25:58.840 But like you and I don't want to like under 2:25:58.920 --> 2:26:03.520 my under to play just how violent just like the 2:26:03.560 --> 2:26:06.800 local reactionaries are, because it's it's not it's like it's 2:26:06.840 --> 2:26:10.160 it's it's it's not like they wouldn't also be death 2:26:10.160 --> 2:26:14.520 squads if the US wasn't there, but like the US, 2:26:14.680 --> 2:26:16.920 you know, and the chocol Police Apartment sending people to 2:26:16.920 --> 2:26:23.160 train them is making them even worse. And it's yeah, yeah, 2:26:23.200 --> 2:26:27.519 and and every place has their own right wing reactionaries, 2:26:27.600 --> 2:26:31.039 right like we're seeing right now. To bring to loop 2:26:31.160 --> 2:26:33.560 everything together and just bring us back to like what's 2:26:33.560 --> 2:26:37.840 going on with Ukraine and Russia. Um, it's related, you know, 2:26:37.920 --> 2:26:42.959 like both sides of this conflict of their own reactionary 2:26:43.080 --> 2:26:46.920 right wing forces, right yeah, And anywhere you go around 2:26:46.920 --> 2:26:52.840 the world, that's going to be a sting and empires 2:26:52.879 --> 2:26:57.280 like the American Empire or the Russian Empire are or 2:26:57.360 --> 2:27:00.360 the Al Salvador Empire, you know, whatever empire, they're going 2:27:00.400 --> 2:27:03.080 to be looking for ways to take advantage of those forces. 2:27:04.680 --> 2:27:11.600 And I think that what I think is important, Like 2:27:11.879 --> 2:27:13.320 one of the things I think is important about this 2:27:13.400 --> 2:27:18.040 politically is to understand that there is a like there 2:27:18.080 --> 2:27:21.160 there there is an incredible amount of international solidarity between cops, 2:27:21.879 --> 2:27:25.040 right they have you know, like that you know, I've 2:27:25.080 --> 2:27:27.240 seen I think there's a book called The Thin Blue 2:27:27.280 --> 2:27:29.320 Line International, but it's it's yeah, I mean that's that's 2:27:29.400 --> 2:27:32.080 that's a thing like you see this basically have wore 2:27:32.120 --> 2:27:36.600 the cops. Like the comps know which side they're on, 2:27:36.959 --> 2:27:39.920 and it's the side of the other cops. And I 2:27:39.959 --> 2:27:42.520 think that's something that that confuses a lot of people 2:27:42.520 --> 2:27:44.360 because you thinks, like for example, like like that's the 2:27:44.440 --> 2:27:48.080 Chinese police, right, Like the Chinese police like go like 2:27:48.160 --> 2:27:50.240 we're trained by I think, I mean, what you know 2:27:50.280 --> 2:27:52.920 because the like the Chraine place in Hong Kong, for example, 2:27:52.959 --> 2:27:56.199 like that that police force like is still literally justical 2:27:56.240 --> 2:27:58.160 on your British police force. They just they didn't even 2:27:58.200 --> 2:28:00.360 like they didn't even bring in new people. They just 2:28:00.440 --> 2:28:04.080 like promoted a new person who was a British colonial 2:28:04.120 --> 2:28:06.600 police officer and then made them the new head of 2:28:06.640 --> 2:28:10.080 the police. And then you know, and those those and 2:28:10.160 --> 2:28:13.440 those cops are also trained by the trained by American 2:28:13.480 --> 2:28:16.520 comps train British cops. Uh, they're trained a lot by 2:28:16.560 --> 2:28:18.640 Israeli cops. Um this and this is this is this 2:28:18.680 --> 2:28:20.560 is the same thing. You know, it's the same thing 2:28:20.560 --> 2:28:23.080 with with with with the like the you know like 2:28:24.240 --> 2:28:25.600 this this is the sort of the same effect that 2:28:25.600 --> 2:28:30.440 gets you like Erik Prince like you know, being being 2:28:30.680 --> 2:28:32.640 like hired by the CCP to run stuff and Chang 2:28:32.720 --> 2:28:37.720 John like it's it's there's there's an incredible right wing 2:28:37.879 --> 2:28:43.800 sort of militarist comp alliance that go just you know, 2:28:44.040 --> 2:28:46.039 it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's it's a kind of 2:28:46.040 --> 2:28:50.280 international police solidarity that scrambles a lot of the sort 2:28:50.320 --> 2:28:54.000 of perceptions of what people think, like like what what 2:28:54.520 --> 2:28:58.560 how how people try to think about the world because yeah, 2:28:58.800 --> 2:29:04.119 and you know, and like fundamentally, like the basis they 2:29:04.160 --> 2:29:07.640 have is the defensive property and the defensive sort of 2:29:07.680 --> 2:29:12.600 the like the I usually call like the the global 2:29:12.600 --> 2:29:16.440 white supremacist regime. And they all know, you know, when 2:29:16.520 --> 2:29:19.560 when when an American cocks Salvador, like, they know which 2:29:19.560 --> 2:29:22.720 side they're on. They're on the cops side, and it's 2:29:23.240 --> 2:29:26.200 and you know, and and they share, they share information, 2:29:26.200 --> 2:29:29.400 they share weapons, they share tactics, they share are you 2:29:29.440 --> 2:29:35.040 just literally people, they share training and yeah, and and 2:29:35.080 --> 2:29:38.360 of course because again it's the cpd uh, they shared 2:29:38.440 --> 2:29:44.720 Dante's servant. Yeah, and so he he I you know, Apparently, 2:29:44.760 --> 2:29:49.440 at some point very shortly after the murder of Rakia Boyd, 2:29:49.959 --> 2:29:51.800 it looks like, based on what I've seen on his 2:29:51.840 --> 2:29:55.240 social media and what I pieced together from from his 2:29:55.240 --> 2:29:59.280 employment history, it looks like he had begun working with 2:29:59.440 --> 2:30:03.600 one of these practical training institutes right before the murder. 2:30:04.920 --> 2:30:08.240 And then he murdered Rickie Avoid And I mean, I 2:30:08.280 --> 2:30:10.400 guess technically I'm not supposed to use the word murder, 2:30:10.400 --> 2:30:16.640 but you know, yeah, no, fucking I mean murdered. And 2:30:17.440 --> 2:30:21.039 so so he murdered Rickie Avoid and then everything happened 2:30:21.080 --> 2:30:27.199 with like going through courts, and he walked away without 2:30:27.280 --> 2:30:30.320 being charged or imprisoned. I mean he was charged, but 2:30:30.360 --> 2:30:35.920 without being convicted or imprisoned. Then, um, the police board 2:30:36.160 --> 2:30:41.360 you know, recommended his firing, but he resigned two days 2:30:41.520 --> 2:30:45.920 before like he was supposed to have his hearing, so 2:30:46.760 --> 2:30:51.039 he still gets a pension. I'm pretty sure that's how 2:30:51.120 --> 2:30:56.200 got word. Um yeah, and so he gets Yeah, I 2:30:56.720 --> 2:30:59.000 don't I thought to confirm that, but I'm pretty sure 2:30:59.000 --> 2:31:02.600 he gets a pension. So he resigns, and then at 2:31:02.640 --> 2:31:06.400 some point after he resigned, he starts posting to social 2:31:06.440 --> 2:31:11.879 media about his trips to Honduras, and you know, it's 2:31:11.920 --> 2:31:14.920 posting photos of of like hanging out in the bar 2:31:15.080 --> 2:31:18.240 with with the cops down there and and kind of 2:31:19.360 --> 2:31:21.959 just all of that. And this is not like public information, 2:31:22.040 --> 2:31:24.360 like it's he has like a LinkedIn page where he's 2:31:24.400 --> 2:31:28.000 like the things he's been doing, Like like this is 2:31:28.040 --> 2:31:33.040 completely public. I don't know like why nobody knows about 2:31:33.040 --> 2:31:35.760 it or has talked about it. Um, But you know 2:31:35.800 --> 2:31:37.720 that also I think just comes back to this murder 2:31:37.800 --> 2:31:43.480 kind of flying under the national radar a lot um, 2:31:43.520 --> 2:31:48.480 And so you know, we don't know what company or 2:31:48.600 --> 2:31:54.320 organization he's there with. Um, it doesn't say he's with 2:31:54.520 --> 2:31:58.160 International Tactical Training Association, which is the the Chicago based 2:31:58.200 --> 2:32:02.000 group led by Aaron Cunningham and his wife. My guests 2:32:02.040 --> 2:32:04.400 would be it's that group, because that's the big one 2:32:04.440 --> 2:32:06.680 out of face out of Chicago. But you know, like 2:32:06.720 --> 2:32:10.160 we can't, I can't prove it could be another It 2:32:10.160 --> 2:32:14.480 could be another right wing tactical training group that's training squads. Yeah, 2:32:14.520 --> 2:32:16.400 And that's the thing, right, is that this is not 2:32:16.640 --> 2:32:20.960 just happening here in Chicago. So like there are these 2:32:21.000 --> 2:32:26.080 tactical training groups all over and there are a number 2:32:26.120 --> 2:32:31.880 of US based ones started by different police officers from 2:32:31.879 --> 2:32:35.520 different departments because it's kind of like a career path 2:32:35.680 --> 2:32:37.959 for them in a sense because it's a thing they 2:32:37.959 --> 2:32:41.960 can do once they retire. You get and it's a 2:32:42.000 --> 2:32:45.840 money maker. You hold these these tactical training seminars, and 2:32:45.879 --> 2:32:48.600 so a number of them are domestically based, right, Like 2:32:48.640 --> 2:32:51.280 they're not necessarily going overseas, but what they're doing is there, 2:32:51.800 --> 2:32:57.000 they're having these seminars and their training other police officers 2:32:57.040 --> 2:33:00.360 in like certain things, like some of them be like 2:33:00.400 --> 2:33:02.920 an afternoon session where you go and you learn about 2:33:02.959 --> 2:33:06.920 like you know, firearms safety or something. Then there might 2:33:06.959 --> 2:33:10.760 be like larger ones where you go and you like 2:33:11.480 --> 2:33:14.680 stay and camp out for like three days and you 2:33:14.800 --> 2:33:20.720 practice like ambushing guerrilla gangs in the jungle or something 2:33:20.760 --> 2:33:24.920 like that. Um, And then a lot of them are 2:33:24.959 --> 2:33:29.480 are based around gun safety and firearms training, and some 2:33:29.600 --> 2:33:32.640 of those are open as of the general public. It depends. 2:33:33.080 --> 2:33:35.800 Some of these are like only for other cops or 2:33:35.840 --> 2:33:38.320 law enforcement and you have to like show I D 2:33:38.879 --> 2:33:42.440 or military and you have to prove um that you're 2:33:42.440 --> 2:33:45.320 affiliated with police or military. Some of them are open 2:33:45.360 --> 2:33:46.880 to the public and you just have to have like 2:33:46.920 --> 2:33:54.720 a firearms cart. So that's problematic for one reason because 2:33:55.320 --> 2:33:58.480 we found that in the aftermath of the January six 2:33:58.560 --> 2:34:03.440 Capital riot that a number of a number of the 2:34:03.480 --> 2:34:10.000 Capital rioters did attend like firearms training classes, tactical training 2:34:10.040 --> 2:34:20.080 classes in just various sort of locations. So this is 2:34:20.120 --> 2:34:24.480 a way for officers who have left the force for 2:34:24.560 --> 2:34:31.199 whatever reason to then have a captive audience. And yeah, 2:34:31.240 --> 2:34:34.879 they're teaching them how to like shoot guns and you 2:34:34.879 --> 2:34:39.200 know follow them more like specific sort of things like that, 2:34:39.280 --> 2:34:43.840 But what kind of conversations are they having like what 2:34:44.000 --> 2:34:47.240 kind of ideology is being espoused, what kind of other 2:34:47.360 --> 2:34:51.039 people are showing up to these meetings, and what are 2:34:51.040 --> 2:34:54.039 they talking about? What groups are they recruiting for, what 2:34:54.120 --> 2:34:57.440 are their affiliations. Yeah, and I think and I think 2:34:57.440 --> 2:35:00.400 that that's something that's important to think of about and 2:35:00.440 --> 2:35:03.960 also to you know, have have more generation of journalists 2:35:03.959 --> 2:35:07.360 look into because you know, when when you look at these, 2:35:07.400 --> 2:35:09.959 I mean like we know we we we've had stories 2:35:10.000 --> 2:35:11.959 like this before, right, Like, I mean, this is a 2:35:12.000 --> 2:35:17.279 lot of how for example, like the Taiwanese Special Forces 2:35:17.280 --> 2:35:21.120 for example, uh, spent an enormous amount of parts special force, 2:35:21.200 --> 2:35:23.200 especially just the Taiwanese armies spent an enormous amount of 2:35:23.200 --> 2:35:26.440 time doing stuff very similar to this. And you know, 2:35:26.520 --> 2:35:28.880 the the product of that was and this is uh, 2:35:29.640 --> 2:35:33.039 this is called warrior um. They're doing this the seventies 2:35:33.080 --> 2:35:36.880 and during this in the eighties some except the sixties, um, 2:35:36.920 --> 2:35:39.600 you know, and and I mean the product of this 2:35:39.920 --> 2:35:44.040 is like arena. The product of this is you know, 2:35:44.200 --> 2:35:48.320 the like the like one of the people they trained 2:35:48.320 --> 2:35:51.760 did the Almozete massacre, like and that that that kind 2:35:51.760 --> 2:35:54.400 of stuff. You can you can trace these these influence 2:35:54.440 --> 2:35:56.480 networks and you could trace these sort of I mean 2:35:56.560 --> 2:35:58.080 a lot of this is i mean literally just funded 2:35:58.080 --> 2:36:00.640 by weird cults, um, but you can, you know, you 2:36:00.800 --> 2:36:03.760 can trace these different sort of paramilitary and intelligence influence networks, 2:36:03.800 --> 2:36:06.879 and what you see at the end of them is 2:36:07.600 --> 2:36:09.400 like a lot of the time, it's just a bunch 2:36:09.440 --> 2:36:11.920 of fascists, and it's a bunch it's a bunch of 2:36:11.920 --> 2:36:15.400 fascists doing coups. And you know, like in some sense 2:36:15.480 --> 2:36:18.200 like yeah, this is this is a kind of like, 2:36:20.040 --> 2:36:24.040 you know, like liberal democracy has this sort of problem, right, 2:36:24.040 --> 2:36:26.960 which is that in order for liberal democracy too, you know, 2:36:27.120 --> 2:36:29.640 function as a liberal democracy, you have to have cops. 2:36:29.680 --> 2:36:32.640 And that means that you're you know, you are producing 2:36:32.680 --> 2:36:37.760 domestically and internationally a group of just ferocious, bloodthirsty right 2:36:37.800 --> 2:36:40.360 wing murderers, and you're you're giving them Saya thority, and 2:36:40.400 --> 2:36:43.640 you're giving them all these training and weapons, and you know, 2:36:43.760 --> 2:36:46.920 the product of that is they do what they're trying 2:36:46.959 --> 2:36:48.720 to do, which is they kill people, they torture people, 2:36:48.760 --> 2:36:50.520 they train other people how to do this, and yeah, 2:36:50.600 --> 2:36:54.400 you get these these cascading series of effects that lead 2:36:54.520 --> 2:36:56.400 you know, a bunch of people taking these classes. January six, 2:36:56.440 --> 2:36:58.800 They lead them to coups all over the world. They 2:36:58.840 --> 2:37:01.640 leave the desk ods over the world. This has been 2:37:01.720 --> 2:37:04.240 Nick could happen here? Join us tomorrow for part two 2:37:04.280 --> 2:37:06.600 of our interview with Raven. You can find us on 2:37:06.680 --> 2:37:09.560 Instagram and on Twitter. It happened here. Pot check out 2:37:09.600 --> 2:37:11.600 the cool Zone from more Over podcast and thank you 2:37:11.640 --> 2:37:23.959 for listening. Adoption of teens from foster care is a 2:37:24.000 --> 2:37:26.320 topic not enough people know about, and we're here to 2:37:26.400 --> 2:37:29.320 change that. I'm April Dinnuity, host of the new podcast 2:37:29.480 --> 2:37:33.480 Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings 2:37:33.520 --> 2:37:36.920 you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families 2:37:36.920 --> 2:37:40.320 that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us 2:37:40.440 --> 2:37:43.959 Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption 2:37:44.080 --> 2:37:46.840 presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the U. 2:37:46.920 --> 2:37:49.520 S Department of Health, the Human Services Administration for Children 2:37:49.600 --> 2:37:53.080 and Families, and the ACT Council. Here there, I'm Scott Rank, 2:37:53.160 --> 2:37:56.080 host of the podcast History Unplugged. And if you're dreaming 2:37:56.120 --> 2:37:58.760 of being a full time podcaster someday, you and I 2:37:58.800 --> 2:38:01.160 have a lot in common. I used to teach history 2:38:01.160 --> 2:38:03.920 for a living, which was great, but I wanted something 2:38:03.959 --> 2:38:06.560 more and maybe you know what I mean. So I 2:38:06.600 --> 2:38:09.240 gave podcasting a try, and I did it with Spreaker 2:38:09.320 --> 2:38:11.600 from my Heart. I could explain how it works in 2:38:11.640 --> 2:38:14.200 about ninety seconds, but all you really need to know 2:38:14.280 --> 2:38:16.840 now is that, in my experience, the AD revenue with 2:38:16.920 --> 2:38:19.200 spreaker has been three to four times higher than it 2:38:19.200 --> 2:38:21.840 has been with any other host I've worked with. Now 2:38:21.959 --> 2:38:24.360 I get to do what I'm passionate about, teach history, 2:38:24.560 --> 2:38:27.600 but with more freedom and less stress, while still earning 2:38:27.600 --> 2:38:31.000 a respectable salary. From just getting started and doing the 2:38:31.080 --> 2:38:34.480 very basic stuff to taking your podcast in whatever direction 2:38:34.480 --> 2:38:36.600 you want to take it, Speaker has all sorts of 2:38:36.600 --> 2:38:38.840 great tools. 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Welcome to it could 2:38:58.920 --> 2:39:01.480 happen here a podcast to about how much I Christopher 2:39:01.520 --> 2:39:05.240 Wong hate the police and specifically the Chicago Police Department. 2:39:05.760 --> 2:39:07.760 UM and we are bringing you part two of my 2:39:07.800 --> 2:39:12.520 interview with Chicago journalist Raven about more Crimes of Chicago. 2:39:12.560 --> 2:39:16.080 Police department, the international in fact, and how the police 2:39:16.120 --> 2:39:19.840 weaponize racing class lines order to preserve their power enjoy. 2:39:20.120 --> 2:39:22.640 You know, I spent a lot of time just like 2:39:24.080 --> 2:39:27.720 in like cops social media spaces, right, and of course 2:39:27.800 --> 2:39:31.840 it's like rotting my brain, and you know, it's it's 2:39:31.879 --> 2:39:35.920 honestly just really tough to deal with sometimes. But you 2:39:35.959 --> 2:39:38.920 know one thing that we see like over and over 2:39:38.959 --> 2:39:41.080 again if you look at the memes that they share 2:39:41.240 --> 2:39:44.039 and the the posts that they write on spacebook and 2:39:44.080 --> 2:39:47.960 all of these things, is it's they s the people 2:39:48.879 --> 2:39:56.360 as their enemy, right, like they're they're trained the military. 2:39:56.480 --> 2:40:00.560 The militarization of the police isn't just about the equipment 2:40:00.600 --> 2:40:02.720 that they have and the money that they have. It's 2:40:02.720 --> 2:40:07.320 also about their psychology and how they they view themselves 2:40:07.440 --> 2:40:13.440 as like warriors fighting the bad guys. But because of 2:40:13.640 --> 2:40:17.840 the nature of policing, the bad guys are literally anyone 2:40:18.200 --> 2:40:21.440 who isn't complying with what they say. And usually this 2:40:21.520 --> 2:40:27.320 is like black people, you know, marginalized people, poor people, um. 2:40:27.840 --> 2:40:30.720 And then there's sort of this like you see a 2:40:30.760 --> 2:40:33.160 lot of these like memes where they they talk about 2:40:33.200 --> 2:40:38.840 themselves as like sheep dogs protecting the sheep from the wolves, 2:40:39.920 --> 2:40:43.640 and yeah, and like the sheep are supposed to be 2:40:43.720 --> 2:40:48.920 like the innocence, which typically if you if you really 2:40:48.959 --> 2:40:51.000 go deep into it, it's like in their minds. That's 2:40:51.040 --> 2:40:54.280 like women and children who are like mostly white, right, 2:40:54.840 --> 2:40:58.959 Like they think they're protecting like white innocence from like 2:41:00.000 --> 2:41:03.000 bad guys. And and there are layers to it, right 2:41:03.120 --> 2:41:06.720 because like obviously it doesn't always work out that way. 2:41:06.800 --> 2:41:09.760 And you know, there are like poor white people in 2:41:09.879 --> 2:41:12.959 rural areas who deal with police repression. You know, there 2:41:13.000 --> 2:41:17.520 are like wealthy black people who get pulled over by 2:41:17.520 --> 2:41:19.920 the cops just because they're driving will black. Like, there 2:41:19.920 --> 2:41:25.560 are certainly like layers upon layers here, depending on like 2:41:25.680 --> 2:41:29.240 class and and just everything. But at the end of 2:41:29.240 --> 2:41:33.959 the day, like they're training themselves up to be a 2:41:34.000 --> 2:41:41.840 military fighting the people in invading their spaces, taking over, 2:41:43.600 --> 2:41:48.600 And the psychology of it is just really really dark too, 2:41:48.640 --> 2:41:54.520 because you have these people who because because we're sending 2:41:54.560 --> 2:41:59.480 them into underresourced communities sort of after the fact, after 2:41:59.520 --> 2:42:03.199 trauma's occurred, after there have been there's been violence, there's 2:42:03.200 --> 2:42:09.840 been shootings, everyone's poor, you know, whatever, we're sending them 2:42:09.840 --> 2:42:13.920 into these places where there's just like the most horrible 2:42:13.959 --> 2:42:18.560 things about poverty and about violence are happening and that's 2:42:18.560 --> 2:42:22.280 all they're exposed to. So then they end up with 2:42:22.320 --> 2:42:27.000 PTSD or all of these problems, you know, like the alcoholism, rape, 2:42:27.040 --> 2:42:29.959 domestic violence. Right, all of these things within the tropic 2:42:30.000 --> 2:42:33.840 beliefs of force are extremely high. And all of this 2:42:34.000 --> 2:42:38.320 comes back to because we're treating everything as punishment. We're 2:42:38.320 --> 2:42:40.560 coming in after the fact. We're not actually treating these 2:42:40.560 --> 2:42:46.000 problems at the source. We're just sending people in to 2:42:46.000 --> 2:42:49.760 to manage the chaos after the fact, and then they 2:42:49.879 --> 2:42:54.800 end up traumatized, they end up enacting more crime and 2:42:54.840 --> 2:42:57.879 more violence to these communities, and it just becomes the cycle, 2:42:58.879 --> 2:43:02.400 but no one can get out of. And then it 2:43:02.440 --> 2:43:05.640 and it comes back to just like defunding the police 2:43:05.680 --> 2:43:10.360 and and state priorities, Like where are we putting our resources, 2:43:10.400 --> 2:43:12.199 because if we were putting them in the right place, 2:43:12.840 --> 2:43:14.720 so many of these things wouldn't be happening in the 2:43:14.760 --> 2:43:17.480 first place. Yeah, and I think one everything, I think 2:43:17.480 --> 2:43:19.640 it's it's important to note that we talked about this 2:43:19.720 --> 2:43:23.080 on our you know, the episodes about the cartels. We 2:43:23.080 --> 2:43:25.640 talked about this on our episodes about the other episodes 2:43:25.640 --> 2:43:28.160 about Chocolate Police, which is that the other thing that 2:43:28.240 --> 2:43:31.520 happens is that the Characo police just they you know, 2:43:31.560 --> 2:43:34.000 they see the drug trade and they go, okay, we're 2:43:34.000 --> 2:43:36.800 just gonna get in on it, and you know, and 2:43:36.840 --> 2:43:39.680 the the sort of the combination of these people, these 2:43:40.000 --> 2:43:44.560 just incredibly violent, armed people with total impunity and an 2:43:44.640 --> 2:43:47.880 enormous amount of money is that you know, they they 2:43:47.920 --> 2:43:52.600 they they become themselves just you know, they they become 2:43:52.600 --> 2:43:54.640 exactly the same thing that they that they were you know, 2:43:55.120 --> 2:43:58.480 nominally supposed to be fighting. And that has all of 2:43:58.480 --> 2:44:01.680 these these downstream effects. If you talked about the way 2:44:01.680 --> 2:44:05.320 that the way that this militarizes basically everything, right, this 2:44:05.320 --> 2:44:07.360 this militarizes the police just says that, you know, the 2:44:07.440 --> 2:44:09.520 violence of it has the effect of militarizing like the 2:44:09.959 --> 2:44:13.680 militarizing everyone else, militarizes the nonside actors, and it just 2:44:13.680 --> 2:44:16.160 sort of it just keeps rashing up the level of violence. 2:44:16.840 --> 2:44:21.200 And as long as you keep throwing the state at it, 2:44:21.240 --> 2:44:23.640 and as long as the state just keeps essentially like 2:44:24.680 --> 2:44:27.280 going okay, I just okay, we have a drug trade 2:44:27.280 --> 2:44:28.760 and I'll just got a cut of it. And as 2:44:28.800 --> 2:44:31.640 long as that keeps happening, like all of the stuff 2:44:31.720 --> 2:44:35.440 that the cops are you know, nominally there to to 2:44:35.600 --> 2:44:37.920 deal with, it's just going to keep escalating because the 2:44:38.280 --> 2:44:43.199 state that like because just because state violence is intensifying 2:44:43.240 --> 2:44:51.120 and making it worse, right, right, and it's just so 2:44:51.280 --> 2:44:55.640 like they're so fucking racist. Yeah, like I just can't, 2:44:55.680 --> 2:44:57.720 I mean, like I don't. We have to we have 2:44:57.760 --> 2:45:00.160 to keep talking about that because it's just like so 2:45:00.360 --> 2:45:04.280 much of just like where like where they get their 2:45:04.320 --> 2:45:06.880 information and how they exchange. Like if you look at 2:45:06.879 --> 2:45:10.680 these cops social networks and where they're getting their information, 2:45:10.800 --> 2:45:12.800 and the kinds of things they're saying to each other 2:45:13.120 --> 2:45:19.080 about black people in Chicago are all so ridiculously wrong 2:45:20.320 --> 2:45:24.440 because they're just parroting these like cop blogs that they 2:45:24.480 --> 2:45:29.440 read full of all kinds of just that shit fucking 2:45:29.440 --> 2:45:32.560 conspiracy theories about like our our black d a or 2:45:32.720 --> 2:45:37.120 prosecutor excuse me, Kim Fox being like a puppet of 2:45:37.160 --> 2:45:43.120 George Soros. They literally believe this, and and it's echoed 2:45:43.120 --> 2:45:46.320 by people like Tucker Carlson, you know, in national media, 2:45:46.360 --> 2:45:50.199 Like anytime Chicago comes up, you will hear these kinds 2:45:50.200 --> 2:45:54.440 of just completely off the wall conspiracy theories about like 2:45:55.240 --> 2:46:03.600 communist BLM an Tifa, Soros funded Kim Fox, like ruining Chicago. 2:46:04.000 --> 2:46:06.440 And and I'm not like defending Kim Fox. Don't getting wrong. 2:46:06.480 --> 2:46:09.440 She's still prosecutor, she's still like putting people in jail. 2:46:10.080 --> 2:46:14.360 But she you know, she was elected because she was 2:46:14.440 --> 2:46:16.720 to do she was supposed to be this big reformist 2:46:17.920 --> 2:46:21.920 and and all of that, and so she's become a target. 2:46:21.959 --> 2:46:23.680 And then she's also become a target with them because 2:46:23.680 --> 2:46:28.840 she's a black woman, So it's easy for them to 2:46:29.600 --> 2:46:32.359 to make her into a lightning rod of hate basically, 2:46:33.840 --> 2:46:40.160 and you know, like they just the dehumanization of of 2:46:40.240 --> 2:46:44.400 black Chicagoans that you see in these in these Facebook 2:46:44.400 --> 2:46:46.400 posts that these people are writing and the things that 2:46:46.440 --> 2:46:53.880 they're tweeting, like it is violently disturbingly racist. And all 2:46:53.920 --> 2:46:57.440 of that comes back to just how they view themselves 2:46:57.480 --> 2:47:01.080 as like an occupying army in the communities, Like they 2:47:01.120 --> 2:47:10.160 don't view themselves as like cooperative partners in helping these communities. 2:47:10.200 --> 2:47:13.640 Like it's no words there to occupy, We're there to 2:47:13.760 --> 2:47:18.880 extract resources. We're there to like, you know, benefit off 2:47:18.920 --> 2:47:23.280 of this gang warfare. If we can you know and 2:47:23.280 --> 2:47:26.360 and like you mentioned, like if you look at like 2:47:26.640 --> 2:47:30.240 the corruption and and the things that that have gone 2:47:30.280 --> 2:47:32.720 on with that, I mean, like I mean that goes 2:47:32.720 --> 2:47:34.600 back to city council, right. I mean we have we 2:47:34.640 --> 2:47:37.720 have alder men. We have we have older people who 2:47:37.760 --> 2:47:43.360 are essentially in bed with the cops, looking for looking 2:47:43.360 --> 2:47:48.320 out for them and you know, like their dedicated cop alderman. 2:47:48.360 --> 2:47:51.279 I mean, like all of our Chicago aldermen are older 2:47:51.280 --> 2:47:56.320 people excuse me, are Democrats by name, But it's like no, 2:47:56.480 --> 2:48:00.480 we have five or six older people who are repelled wlikins. 2:48:01.160 --> 2:48:04.680 Like they called themselves Democrats because they wouldn't be able 2:48:04.680 --> 2:48:06.640 to be elected in Chicago if they didn't. But they 2:48:06.680 --> 2:48:10.959 are absolutely like cop loving Republicans. You know, they just 2:48:10.959 --> 2:48:13.880 call themselves Democrats because they like support gay marriage or whatever. 2:48:15.120 --> 2:48:17.960 Well it's because it's Chicago and you like you can't 2:48:18.040 --> 2:48:21.720 run it like the like the the the only time 2:48:22.040 --> 2:48:24.520 a Democrat has ever lost one of these elections was 2:48:25.320 --> 2:48:29.520 the time a I want blanking on the name of 2:48:29.560 --> 2:48:37.720 the cult, the time of Larushite accidentally won the primary. 2:48:37.879 --> 2:48:40.080 Like that that's basically it, Like yeah, I mean, it's 2:48:40.160 --> 2:48:42.480 it's it's you know this, this is a democratic city, 2:48:42.520 --> 2:48:46.200 but you know, the democratic city just means incredibly right 2:48:46.200 --> 2:48:51.360 wing and police, which right, right, Yeah, And when you 2:48:51.400 --> 2:48:56.520 look at the history of policing in Chicago, you have 2:48:56.640 --> 2:48:59.680 to go back decades and decades and kind of look 2:48:59.680 --> 2:49:02.840 at all so to it like where a lot of 2:49:02.879 --> 2:49:09.560 these cops came from. In the aftermath of like the 2:49:09.680 --> 2:49:13.200 dissolution of like the official like mafia and like al 2:49:13.240 --> 2:49:17.480 Capone and all that stuff, you had a lot of 2:49:17.520 --> 2:49:24.120 working class immigrants from like European communities, like the Polish community, 2:49:24.560 --> 2:49:28.200 the Irish community, the Italian community, and all of these 2:49:28.240 --> 2:49:32.039 communities have their own like police associations here, like the 2:49:32.080 --> 2:49:37.200 Italian American Police Association, the Polish American Police Association, all 2:49:37.240 --> 2:49:40.280 of these things, and and so like it becomes this 2:49:41.760 --> 2:49:44.400 being a cop to go back to sort of like 2:49:44.440 --> 2:49:48.959 the international ties here, being a cop becomes this identity 2:49:49.040 --> 2:49:50.840 for them and their families. Like a lot of people 2:49:50.840 --> 2:49:54.760 are cops because their dad was a cop, their grandpa 2:49:54.800 --> 2:49:57.480 was a cops. Their cousins are cops, their brothers are cops. 2:49:58.879 --> 2:50:04.279 There's like a family honor sort of in like being 2:50:04.360 --> 2:50:07.280 a cop, and and a lot of them show, you know, 2:50:07.560 --> 2:50:09.920 and that that that goes back to why they show 2:50:09.959 --> 2:50:13.279 so much solidarity too with like cops from other countries 2:50:14.400 --> 2:50:18.439 is it's like the profession in and of itself is lionized. 2:50:20.200 --> 2:50:25.560 And then on top of that, you have right now 2:50:25.720 --> 2:50:31.000 in Chicago, like because of gentrification, because of just like 2:50:31.040 --> 2:50:35.000 immigration patterns and the way communities have changed. We have 2:50:35.120 --> 2:50:41.000 these like traditionally Polish Italian communities that feel like they're 2:50:41.000 --> 2:50:50.000 being encroached upon by mostly like Latin X communities. So 2:50:50.800 --> 2:50:53.920 we had for example, like you know, the shooting um 2:50:53.959 --> 2:50:58.039 the murder of Anthony Alvarez up on up on the 2:50:58.080 --> 2:51:00.640 northwest side, the far northwest side of Chicago last year, 2:51:02.320 --> 2:51:05.039 and in the aftermath of that, we saw a lot 2:51:05.200 --> 2:51:11.480 of like pension between the traditional like Polish Polish American 2:51:11.520 --> 2:51:14.520 community up there and then the new wave of like 2:51:15.640 --> 2:51:20.280 Latin X immigrants um. And the problem is a lot 2:51:20.280 --> 2:51:22.160 of the people in the Polish community up there have 2:51:22.400 --> 2:51:27.160 family and relatives who are cops. So we had like 2:51:27.480 --> 2:51:31.960 cops trashing the memorial, you know, to the s Anthony Alvarez. 2:51:32.120 --> 2:51:35.959 We had like Polish biker gangs like riding by the 2:51:36.040 --> 2:51:39.800 rallies trying to like intimidate people and it all comes 2:51:39.800 --> 2:51:42.800 back to like white supremacy and just straight up racism, right. 2:51:42.879 --> 2:51:49.160 Like there's another example of that with like the the 2:51:49.400 --> 2:51:55.680 Columbus statue that was sent here by Bussolini that eventually, yes, 2:51:56.240 --> 2:51:58.720 one of the like one of the I guess you'd 2:51:58.760 --> 2:52:01.800 call it the second wave of the upraising in Chicago 2:52:02.240 --> 2:52:07.360 was a bunch of people, like enormous members of people 2:52:07.360 --> 2:52:09.840 throwing things at cops who were attempting to defend the statue. 2:52:10.560 --> 2:52:13.600 And this was like a like the Italian like Americans 2:52:13.640 --> 2:52:15.680 like the right way, and we got like extremely mad 2:52:15.720 --> 2:52:19.080 about this, and there was all of this sort of 2:52:20.879 --> 2:52:24.920 know there's all the sort of tension between between these 2:52:25.000 --> 2:52:29.480 these different community. Yeah, and some of that comes back 2:52:29.520 --> 2:52:35.879 to like also, um, the construction of of the inter states. Right, 2:52:36.040 --> 2:52:38.800 so like in the I don't know when they started 2:52:38.840 --> 2:52:41.000 building the highways down by U. I c. Is like 2:52:41.120 --> 2:52:43.840 in the fifties of the sixties, right, you had this 2:52:43.920 --> 2:52:48.120 like traditional Italian American community down there by University of 2:52:48.160 --> 2:52:53.520 Illinois Chicago and like on Taylor Street, and then people 2:52:53.560 --> 2:52:57.760 built the highway and it like funked up a bunch 2:52:57.800 --> 2:52:59.840 of ships. You know, some people had to sell their 2:52:59.840 --> 2:53:03.920 home Holmes. You know, the traditional neighborhood was like destroyed 2:53:03.959 --> 2:53:08.440 all of these things, and then this university is built 2:53:09.120 --> 2:53:12.560 and that coincides with that, and so you end up 2:53:12.560 --> 2:53:17.640 getting a lot of like old school racist Italian getting 2:53:17.720 --> 2:53:22.400 piste at the students and at the school and everything 2:53:22.440 --> 2:53:26.280 in the aftermath. And it's a really really multicultural school. 2:53:26.320 --> 2:53:27.920 I don't know if you're familiar with you I see, 2:53:28.680 --> 2:53:32.760 but it's like, yeah, so U I see has like 2:53:33.000 --> 2:53:38.680 one of the largest immigrant student population student bodies like 2:53:38.760 --> 2:53:42.760 in the country. Um, it's just a very very diverse school. 2:53:42.879 --> 2:53:46.200 I'm pretty sure white people are actually a minority if 2:53:46.200 --> 2:53:49.320 you look at like the demographics of just like how 2:53:49.360 --> 2:53:52.360 people identify in student surveys. U I s A is 2:53:52.440 --> 2:53:55.360 the University of Illinois and Chicago. Uh yeah, it's a 2:53:55.480 --> 2:53:58.600 one of the big universities in the city. Yeah, just 2:53:58.680 --> 2:54:03.640 for the non Chicago Yeah yeah, different, there's a different one, 2:54:03.760 --> 2:54:07.360 University of Chicago. That's like that was all I went to, 2:54:08.600 --> 2:54:13.200 which is first, they've got their whole thing going on 2:54:13.280 --> 2:54:16.440 because their campus police force is one of the largest 2:54:16.680 --> 2:54:19.000 private police forces in the world. Yeah, and you know, 2:54:19.000 --> 2:54:20.480 I guess we're talking about that a little bit too. 2:54:20.480 --> 2:54:23.280 Because that's this sort of like it's kind of horrible 2:54:23.320 --> 2:54:26.440 bind where it's like, yeah, so it's that that police 2:54:26.440 --> 2:54:28.200 force is one of the largest police forces in the world. 2:54:28.320 --> 2:54:30.959 It has shot students, it has shot people who are 2:54:31.000 --> 2:54:35.000 not students. It does a bunch of horrible things. But 2:54:35.080 --> 2:54:38.000 then you know, some you're there's there's this kind of trap, right, 2:54:38.040 --> 2:54:40.119 because like one of one of the things that happens 2:54:40.200 --> 2:54:42.040 is like, well, okay, so you get rid of the 2:54:42.120 --> 2:54:43.920 u cp D, right, and then then you know, okay, 2:54:43.920 --> 2:54:45.720 so they're going to bring the Chicago Police Apartment in 2:54:45.760 --> 2:54:49.640 and it's like the Chica Police Apartment are like one 2:54:49.680 --> 2:54:52.800 of the few institutions in the world that's worse than 2:54:52.959 --> 2:54:56.480 like the regular UCPD, and it's you know, and that 2:54:56.560 --> 2:54:57.680 was that was one of the things that that was 2:54:57.720 --> 2:55:02.320 really inspiring, um in was just yeah, the way that 2:55:02.360 --> 2:55:07.200 the abolished the Chicago Police Department like movement was sort 2:55:07.240 --> 2:55:10.600 of like unfolded in this broader just this broader potential 2:55:10.680 --> 2:55:13.880 just abolished chiccoco the Chicago police in general. But it's 2:55:13.879 --> 2:55:15.680 this weird thing where it's like you have these you 2:55:15.720 --> 2:55:18.840 have these occupation zones, and it's like that that that 2:55:19.000 --> 2:55:20.760 part of the South Side and then the other The 2:55:20.840 --> 2:55:23.640 other thing I think that people don't understand about Chicago 2:55:23.680 --> 2:55:27.800 Police Department is that they have an absolutely enormous range 2:55:27.879 --> 2:55:30.640 that they patrol. Right that that doesn't include that it's way, 2:55:30.680 --> 2:55:32.720 it goes way off campus like they have. They have 2:55:32.760 --> 2:55:36.120 an absolutely enormous range of things they conclude and they 2:55:36.200 --> 2:55:39.760 do things like, uh, you know, they'll they'll just like 2:55:39.760 --> 2:55:42.960 like like lock down the entire campus and they'll just 2:55:42.959 --> 2:55:45.279 do this just happen because there they'll be like chasing 2:55:45.320 --> 2:55:47.680 someone who like like one of one of the one 2:55:47.720 --> 2:55:50.480 of the times when I was there, someone like they 2:55:50.600 --> 2:55:53.960 like stolen something from like a video game store, and 2:55:54.160 --> 2:55:56.879 the whole campus got locked down, like the cops are 2:55:56.920 --> 2:55:59.080 screaming and every want to stay in the buildings, like 2:56:00.400 --> 2:56:02.039 and they just like, you know, they had this like 2:56:02.480 --> 2:56:05.400 enormous numbers of cops just sort of like swarmed through 2:56:05.440 --> 2:56:09.840 the entire the entire campus for like an hour. And 2:56:09.879 --> 2:56:12.360 this is just like happens. I mean, there's cops everywhere. 2:56:12.400 --> 2:56:15.200 They just they do stuff like that, and there's this 2:56:15.240 --> 2:56:17.880 whole you know, and and but this is one of 2:56:17.920 --> 2:56:20.720 the other things where you get these tensions because so 2:56:21.120 --> 2:56:26.039 you Chicago, the University of Chicago also has like it's 2:56:26.040 --> 2:56:28.600 not as large, but also has like a like it 2:56:28.600 --> 2:56:33.640 also has like a pretty large international student immigrant like population. 2:56:33.879 --> 2:56:37.440 And there was this, uh there was there was there 2:56:37.440 --> 2:56:39.400 was a Chinese national student who got shot, who got 2:56:39.400 --> 2:56:43.480 shot a robbery last year, and that was a huge 2:56:43.680 --> 2:56:46.480 I think that was last year. Yeah that was yeah, 2:56:46.520 --> 2:56:50.240 it wasn't yeah, yeah, And that turned into a huge 2:56:50.240 --> 2:56:51.879 thing where you had these sudden you know, because we 2:56:52.000 --> 2:56:54.400 had the anti police protests, but then suddenly there was 2:56:54.440 --> 2:56:57.760 this huge wing of like basically the right wing faculty, 2:56:57.879 --> 2:57:01.640 a bunch of just like absolutely reactionary, like extremely rich 2:57:02.040 --> 2:57:07.160 CCP scions and like this this sort of like nucleus 2:57:07.200 --> 2:57:10.800 of of the like like people like people in the 2:57:10.840 --> 2:57:13.920 right wing law faculty, like the ECON people who suddenly 2:57:13.959 --> 2:57:15.920 had this like giant thing that was like it was, 2:57:16.000 --> 2:57:18.119 it was. It was a sort of microcosm of of 2:57:18.120 --> 2:57:22.680 of the broader sort of like turn against the anti 2:57:22.720 --> 2:57:24.720 police movements by using crime. And they had this whole 2:57:24.720 --> 2:57:26.200 thing is that we need to keep the campus safe, 2:57:26.240 --> 2:57:28.120 and they're like, oh, we need to give you the 2:57:28.160 --> 2:57:30.240 ucp D the ability to lead to to go off 2:57:30.240 --> 2:57:31.880 of campus, which you know, they already have there, like 2:57:31.920 --> 2:57:33.160 we need to get the more money, we need to 2:57:33.200 --> 2:57:35.800 have more cops everywhere, and it was just and it's 2:57:35.840 --> 2:57:39.320 it's just this sort of like you get this horrible, 2:57:39.320 --> 2:57:41.959 horrible sort of pendulum effect where like you get this 2:57:42.080 --> 2:57:47.520 violence and then you know, people like the like the 2:57:47.520 --> 2:57:49.920 the rights response to that violence is just to create 2:57:49.959 --> 2:57:52.360 is you know, just descended more cops to create more violence, 2:57:52.800 --> 2:57:55.240 and it just keeps escalating and keep escalating, and it's 2:57:55.320 --> 2:57:57.080 it's and then you know, and then there's there's a 2:57:57.120 --> 2:58:01.160 sort of dynamic of this right where rich students at 2:58:01.200 --> 2:58:03.560 the unniversary of Chicago, And this is so some extent 2:58:03.760 --> 2:58:06.280 this is it's mostly a class embraced thing, but it's 2:58:06.280 --> 2:58:09.720 not entirely. But like people who go there just like 2:58:10.320 --> 2:58:14.080 have this like incredible fear of literally everyone around them. 2:58:14.120 --> 2:58:18.000 It's like they turned to many cops. Like there are 2:58:18.000 --> 2:58:20.480 people who are screaming about how like just the red 2:58:20.560 --> 2:58:22.680 line is not safe at night. And I was like 2:58:22.680 --> 2:58:27.080 I have literally like I have walked like thirty blocks 2:58:27.160 --> 2:58:29.640 back home at two in the morning and been completely fine. 2:58:30.000 --> 2:58:32.840 Like you guys are just cowards, but and you know 2:58:32.879 --> 2:58:34.920 your your cowards and extreme racist but like yeah, like 2:58:34.920 --> 2:58:37.040 all all all of these sort of factors blend together 2:58:37.080 --> 2:58:39.360 and you get these you get these coalitions of of 2:58:39.440 --> 2:58:42.120 these these right wing pro police people who want to 2:58:42.200 --> 2:58:44.880 just not not just like you know, not not just 2:58:44.920 --> 2:58:46.920 support the police, but want to continue to expand it 2:58:46.920 --> 2:58:48.960 so they can feel safe. And it's like you're not, 2:58:49.800 --> 2:58:51.720 you're not even in danger, but they have they have 2:58:51.800 --> 2:58:54.600 they have the same sort of like this whole town 2:58:54.680 --> 2:58:57.240 is trying to kill us, like racist cop rand mentality, 2:58:57.320 --> 2:58:58.840 and yeah, sorry, this is this is this is this 2:58:58.879 --> 2:59:03.640 has been being upset about this because I feel you 2:59:03.680 --> 2:59:07.000 and it's like it's and but it relates back to 2:59:07.040 --> 2:59:10.120 kind of like campus policing in general and kind of 2:59:10.160 --> 2:59:13.800 why it exists, which is that a lot of colleges, 2:59:14.600 --> 2:59:16.240 I mean not all of them. It depends on where 2:59:16.240 --> 2:59:19.760 you are, but like some colleges, especially in like large 2:59:19.840 --> 2:59:23.480 urban areas, you know, are we're built in the middle 2:59:23.600 --> 2:59:31.520 of like largely black communities. Yeah, and because the land 2:59:31.600 --> 2:59:35.959 was cheaper to buy, you know, there are reasons why necessarily, 2:59:36.040 --> 2:59:38.920 like they're built in these spaces, and so the campus 2:59:38.959 --> 2:59:43.720 police departments function as just a way to like keep 2:59:43.800 --> 2:59:47.800 the students isolated from the community, like it's making a 2:59:47.800 --> 2:59:52.200 community within a community. It's making this little enclave. And 2:59:52.240 --> 2:59:56.840 then of course people are are then going to view 2:59:56.920 --> 3:00:01.840 anyone outside of that enclave with like racist suspicion. Right, 3:00:01.959 --> 3:00:05.959 And if you have immigrant students who may or may 3:00:05.959 --> 3:00:08.320 not be wealthy, it's a punklem where they come from. 3:00:08.360 --> 3:00:10.640 But UFC has like a lot of as far as 3:00:10.680 --> 3:00:15.160 I am aware, like wealthy international students. And they might 3:00:15.200 --> 3:00:19.080 be coming from countries where like there aren't any black 3:00:19.120 --> 3:00:23.800 people or there aren't very many. And just because they're 3:00:23.840 --> 3:00:27.360 they're coming from like this country doesn't necessarily mean that 3:00:27.440 --> 3:00:31.120 they like our left wing. So they they're coming into 3:00:31.160 --> 3:00:34.080 these communities, you know, with not a lot of experience, 3:00:34.400 --> 3:00:37.960 just sort of around people who look different from them, 3:00:38.000 --> 3:00:40.000 and so they're going to be of course looking to 3:00:40.240 --> 3:00:46.360 like these police figures than to quote protect them. But 3:00:46.360 --> 3:00:48.480 but to go back to it, it's like, Okay, well, 3:00:48.959 --> 3:00:52.200 if if you are feeling unsafe on the train at night, 3:00:52.879 --> 3:00:59.360 for example, why why isn't the train safe? Like why 3:00:59.400 --> 3:01:05.240 are people using it as you know shelter? Why are 3:01:05.240 --> 3:01:07.840 people doing drugs on the train? Like why is there 3:01:07.920 --> 3:01:11.560 violence happening? And that just comes back to again, like 3:01:11.800 --> 3:01:16.760 we're not actually addressing the route problems by just adding 3:01:16.760 --> 3:01:19.480 more police. And I will say, like I think, I 3:01:19.520 --> 3:01:21.800 think again, Like the other thing that's happening here is 3:01:21.840 --> 3:01:26.280 really just the University of Chicago, like is a place 3:01:26.320 --> 3:01:31.280 to which the world's ladish is transplanted. And yeah, you 3:01:31.560 --> 3:01:34.400 can see this like very clearly along because yeah, like 3:01:34.560 --> 3:01:39.920 there is the wealth gap between like between poor international 3:01:39.920 --> 3:01:42.680 students of Richard national students is like it's it's the 3:01:42.760 --> 3:01:45.720 largest single wealth gap in like in this in the 3:01:45.840 --> 3:01:50.600 entire university. It's it's unbelievable. Um and you know, and 3:01:50.800 --> 3:01:52.520 you could you could just you can watch it playing 3:01:52.560 --> 3:01:54.400 down on class lines in a place down other lines 3:01:54.480 --> 3:01:57.880 right where you have like like you know, like yeah 3:01:58.040 --> 3:02:01.160 you have like you have both we have students from 3:02:01.200 --> 3:02:03.400 I don't know, you have China, students from Vietnam, and 3:02:03.440 --> 3:02:06.400 like one of them will be trans and you know 3:02:06.600 --> 3:02:11.080 it turns yeah, it's like oh hey, look like yeah, 3:02:11.160 --> 3:02:12.520 like when when when you have like when you have 3:02:12.520 --> 3:02:15.280 a Chinese trans student rights, like yeah, they're there. They 3:02:15.720 --> 3:02:20.560 the people who back home had have experienced depression in 3:02:20.640 --> 3:02:27.160 various ways, are consistently like consistently um or like consistently 3:02:27.160 --> 3:02:31.240 anti police and consistently like significantly less bad about this stuff. 3:02:31.240 --> 3:02:34.720 It's it's in my experience, it's it's very much. Is 3:02:34.879 --> 3:02:38.240 just you have this sort of transplanted like you have 3:02:38.280 --> 3:02:40.040 the short of transplanted elief and by the countries to 3:02:40.040 --> 3:02:41.680 come to the University of Chicago so they can you know, 3:02:41.680 --> 3:02:43.880 study economics and go back to their own countries and 3:02:43.920 --> 3:02:47.800 like continue to like rob their own populations. And those 3:02:47.840 --> 3:02:50.880 people are the ones who are doing this stuff. And 3:02:50.879 --> 3:02:54.360 it's I don't know, it's you see a lot of 3:02:54.440 --> 3:02:59.560 kind of like this like I think really misguided like 3:03:00.000 --> 3:03:02.160 anti racism. That's like, well, okay, we have to take 3:03:02.240 --> 3:03:05.120 the security concerns of of of these these of of 3:03:05.160 --> 3:03:08.680 Asian people seriously. It's like these are this is this 3:03:08.760 --> 3:03:10.920 is the Chinese ruling class, this is the this like 3:03:11.360 --> 3:03:13.600 you don't need to take these people's concerns seriously. They 3:03:13.640 --> 3:03:16.520 are finatally they're ferocious right wingers who just read highatt 3:03:16.600 --> 3:03:20.959 for the first time. Like you guys, these these are 3:03:21.000 --> 3:03:22.840 these are not the same people as the people who 3:03:22.879 --> 3:03:27.920 are suffering under the right right. And we saw that. 3:03:28.040 --> 3:03:30.520 We saw that too with like the big wave of 3:03:30.520 --> 3:03:34.400 of stop Asian hate protests here last year where we 3:03:34.480 --> 3:03:39.600 had like this big rally down in China Town, UM 3:03:39.720 --> 3:03:42.520 with like a huge, huge number, like hundreds of people 3:03:42.560 --> 3:03:44.959 from the community came out and and you had a 3:03:44.959 --> 3:03:49.720 lot of younger people who very much had like you know, 3:03:50.640 --> 3:03:54.240 defund the police kind of sentiments. But then you had 3:03:54.320 --> 3:03:57.840 we had like police representatives speaking at the rally, yeah, 3:03:57.879 --> 3:04:01.920 about how they were going to make like Chicago safer 3:04:02.000 --> 3:04:05.879 for Asian people. It's like this stuff like it makes 3:04:05.920 --> 3:04:09.520 me so angry, like CPT yeah, no, it was. It 3:04:09.600 --> 3:04:12.600 was regular CPD, Like I I'm Chinese. They almost killed 3:04:12.600 --> 3:04:17.080 me on campus. Like these people like they're not these 3:04:17.200 --> 3:04:19.760 these these they they're like the police don't keep us safe. 3:04:19.760 --> 3:04:21.320 But like you know, there's been this, there's been this 3:04:21.360 --> 3:04:24.400 incredible weaponization of of the Asian American community. Like you 3:04:24.440 --> 3:04:26.280 see this, you see this in Chinatown. There's there's been 3:04:26.320 --> 3:04:29.840 this like that. There's like China Town is like this 3:04:29.920 --> 3:04:32.200 is different. Even in the last like like three or 3:04:32.240 --> 3:04:37.360 four years, has turned into this just like incredibly right wing. 3:04:37.560 --> 3:04:39.880 I mean it's not everyone, but like you see like 3:04:40.320 --> 3:04:42.400 they're they're like I like there there's there's a there's 3:04:42.400 --> 3:04:45.360 there's there's a bench in uh in Chicago in front 3:04:45.360 --> 3:04:48.240 of the library right that had they have these tables 3:04:48.520 --> 3:04:51.120 and the tables have an engraved plaque on them that 3:04:51.200 --> 3:04:53.400 says no loiter ring, and that says we will call 3:04:53.440 --> 3:04:54.879 the police on you if you loiter. That this is 3:04:54.920 --> 3:04:59.120 outside of the library. Like it's yeah, there's they have 3:04:59.160 --> 3:05:01.440 this sort of like increa just this incredibly right wing 3:05:01.520 --> 3:05:05.760 like anti anti like anti like homeless people campaign that's happening, 3:05:06.480 --> 3:05:08.560 and it's it's I don't know, it's it's one of 3:05:08.879 --> 3:05:13.160 just the most depressing things I've seen here because you have, 3:05:13.400 --> 3:05:15.400 you know, you have the Chamber of Commerce is to 3:05:15.480 --> 3:05:18.000 sort of like you know, as the most powerful political 3:05:18.000 --> 3:05:21.879 force in a lot of these communities, and like those 3:05:21.879 --> 3:05:25.119 people's are right wingers and they just they they don't 3:05:25.160 --> 3:05:29.039 have the same interests as like the rest of the Asia, 3:05:29.040 --> 3:05:31.480 of the Asian American community, and it, you know, and 3:05:31.600 --> 3:05:34.360 it gets you get this horrible, horrible thing, which is 3:05:34.400 --> 3:05:37.400 what was happening on the USA campus, which is like 3:05:37.720 --> 3:05:41.320 essentially the right wing like pitting the right wings like 3:05:41.360 --> 3:05:45.160 just just pitting the like basically basically like pitting Asians 3:05:45.160 --> 3:05:53.560 against black people. And it's horrible and it it just 3:05:53.600 --> 3:05:56.800 comes back to like who who is benefiting from this? 3:05:57.120 --> 3:06:01.879 Like who when we when we have immigrant communities or 3:06:01.920 --> 3:06:08.520 nonimmigrant communities, you know, like being upset with other communities, 3:06:09.879 --> 3:06:12.279 What are the greater forces here that are like benefiting 3:06:12.320 --> 3:06:15.280 from that sort of like infighting. And it's always like 3:06:15.400 --> 3:06:19.959 the fascist cops who who ultimately come out of the 3:06:20.000 --> 3:06:24.320 top there because if they can keep the people fighting 3:06:24.360 --> 3:06:30.840 amongst themselves, or they can stoke prejudice and racism between 3:06:30.879 --> 3:06:34.000 the people, you know, they can then come in and 3:06:35.040 --> 3:06:39.600 scoop up resources. And when you look at like a 3:06:39.680 --> 3:06:43.600 school like University of Chicago, they just have a massive, 3:06:44.640 --> 3:06:47.720 massive amount of money, right, Like the resources there are 3:06:47.800 --> 3:06:54.200 just unbelievable. And so of course you're going to have 3:06:54.360 --> 3:06:58.480 people in the community who are resentful of that, who 3:06:58.520 --> 3:07:03.120 are upset about that because like they don't have affordable housing, 3:07:03.680 --> 3:07:08.360 they don't have good jobs, like they're trying to make 3:07:08.360 --> 3:07:14.000 a living and keep their kids safe, and here's this 3:07:14.120 --> 3:07:18.040 like university in the middle of their neighborhood with all 3:07:18.080 --> 3:07:22.680 of this money. And wow, I'm so amazed. I'm just 3:07:22.720 --> 3:07:25.840 so happy that like somebody's doing construction right now outside 3:07:25.840 --> 3:07:30.680 my apartment. Thank you for this timing I'm so glad 3:07:30.680 --> 3:07:34.160 about the um. But but essentially, like you know, you 3:07:35.000 --> 3:07:38.840 they the students, the students end up being a scapegoat 3:07:38.920 --> 3:07:42.640 for all of their like all the communities like justified 3:07:42.720 --> 3:07:48.040 fears about what's going on right justified. They're justified in 3:07:48.120 --> 3:07:50.080 being upset that they don't have these resources. But it's 3:07:50.080 --> 3:07:54.080 not necessarily like the individual student. Yeah, and and there's 3:07:54.160 --> 3:07:56.800 there's been a lot of really good right right before. 3:07:57.040 --> 3:08:00.320 One of the things that was happening in I part 3:08:00.640 --> 3:08:02.120 right before I got there, it was there was this 3:08:02.240 --> 3:08:06.400 huge campaign basically there wasn't a level one trauma center 3:08:06.760 --> 3:08:09.039 like on this outside, and so you know, if you 3:08:09.040 --> 3:08:11.520 get shot, right, they have to like take you in 3:08:11.520 --> 3:08:13.520 a helicopter to the north side to a hospital there, 3:08:13.560 --> 3:08:15.600 and you know, in that time, like there's a good 3:08:15.640 --> 3:08:18.040 chance you're gonna die. And there had there had been one, 3:08:18.080 --> 3:08:19.840 but it got shut down because it wasn't making any money. 3:08:20.280 --> 3:08:23.560 And so you know, there was this huge, uh community 3:08:23.560 --> 3:08:26.200 student campaign to like to force the university to open 3:08:26.200 --> 3:08:28.280 one of these trauma centers. And so I think and 3:08:28.480 --> 3:08:32.240 I think it's important that like we don't have to 3:08:32.320 --> 3:08:35.320 fight each other like that. That's not a thing that 3:08:35.600 --> 3:08:38.360 you know, like yeah, like I think I think like 3:08:38.480 --> 3:08:43.119 that university, I I don't think it should continue to exist. 3:08:43.160 --> 3:08:45.760 I think at the very least it should be like 3:08:46.400 --> 3:08:49.360 taking out of the community control. But who but like yeah, 3:08:49.400 --> 3:08:51.280 like you know, for for the people who are there, 3:08:51.280 --> 3:08:53.280 and you know, I think like for for the Asian 3:08:53.280 --> 3:08:56.000 Americans listening to this, and for for for people who 3:08:56.000 --> 3:08:59.000 are students like you, you do not have to be 3:08:59.040 --> 3:09:01.400 the weapon of the cops. You don't. You can you 3:09:01.440 --> 3:09:04.560 can work together and and and when you do that, 3:09:04.920 --> 3:09:06.640 you can win and you you can win. You can 3:09:06.640 --> 3:09:11.520 win like really incredibly tangible games for the community, and 3:09:11.560 --> 3:09:16.199 you can save people's lives, you know it also outside 3:09:16.200 --> 3:09:20.080 of campus, same deal with Chicago police, right, Like, we 3:09:20.120 --> 3:09:25.240 don't need to have the Eastern European communities fighting the 3:09:25.320 --> 3:09:28.640 Latino communities fighting the Black communities. Like we don't need 3:09:28.680 --> 3:09:34.039 to have these like all of these communities just like 3:09:34.160 --> 3:09:37.400 fighting each other instead of like the actual oppressive forces 3:09:37.879 --> 3:09:44.320 at the top. Um. But you know, right now we're 3:09:44.360 --> 3:09:48.320 at like this kind of I don't know, I guess 3:09:48.920 --> 3:09:53.520 tipping point. I think where either people start to show 3:09:53.560 --> 3:09:58.640 solidarity or we're fucked. Like there are massive and not 3:09:58.800 --> 3:10:01.720 to get like super are existential with you, but like 3:10:02.360 --> 3:10:08.720 there are massive, massive forces right now, right wing forces 3:10:08.879 --> 3:10:14.119 trying to benefit off of all of this factionalization, and 3:10:14.280 --> 3:10:22.160 as we see tanks rolling into Ukraine, like that's this 3:10:22.240 --> 3:10:26.440 is a global phenomenon. It's not just happening at home. 3:10:26.520 --> 3:10:32.040 It's happening everywhere, and like we don't have a lot 3:10:32.080 --> 3:10:37.840 of time left to stop this and to bring it 3:10:37.879 --> 3:10:42.520 back to this like far right trucker foe trucker convoy 3:10:43.120 --> 3:10:46.640 ship show that's to happen and and then roll into 3:10:47.080 --> 3:10:52.039 roll into our capital. Like I'm just struck by the 3:10:52.200 --> 3:10:54.640 timing of it all. And I'm certainly not going to 3:10:54.720 --> 3:10:58.320 be like a conspiracy theorist about it and be like, 3:10:58.360 --> 3:11:02.840 well putin Is has planned this all happen at the 3:11:02.879 --> 3:11:09.400 same time. Um, But I do think that whether or 3:11:09.440 --> 3:11:13.080 not it's like plans happen at the same time, it's 3:11:13.200 --> 3:11:19.920 absolutely going to benefit these people that you know this 3:11:20.000 --> 3:11:23.640 is happening right now, and yeah, it's it's it's the 3:11:23.680 --> 3:11:28.760 same thing with with just horrific anti trans bills that 3:11:28.840 --> 3:11:31.560 the anti transport like not bills, but in anti trans 3:11:33.720 --> 3:11:38.240 government action, I guess is the correct term in that's 3:11:38.240 --> 3:11:44.560 happening in Texas right now. Yeah, it's uh, you know, 3:11:44.760 --> 3:11:48.760 like people people draw comparisons to to the Third Reich 3:11:48.879 --> 3:11:52.080 and to Nazi Germany and them banning like you know, 3:11:52.160 --> 3:11:55.440 homosexual dance parties and things like that. You know, like 3:11:55.480 --> 3:11:57.680 they didn't start out saying we want to kill all 3:11:57.720 --> 3:12:00.760 the Jews. Like that's not like it doesn't you don't 3:12:00.879 --> 3:12:04.920 start that way, you make you would do the smaller 3:12:04.959 --> 3:12:08.039 attacks first, you build up to it, You take power 3:12:08.200 --> 3:12:13.000 inch by inch until like nobody can stop you. Yeah, 3:12:13.080 --> 3:12:16.959 but I think I think you know there, there's there 3:12:16.959 --> 3:12:20.560 There's an important note here, though, which is that, like 3:12:20.600 --> 3:12:24.039 it's it's very easy to sort of especially in times 3:12:24.040 --> 3:12:28.400 like this, to sort of just like be be in 3:12:28.400 --> 3:12:30.000 a place where just it looks like history is just 3:12:30.040 --> 3:12:32.800 washing over you, right that you know, we're we're we're 3:12:32.840 --> 3:12:36.680 bound by these sort of irresistible powers and forces, And 3:12:37.280 --> 3:12:42.040 that's not true. Like these these these these kinds of 3:12:42.080 --> 3:12:44.720 fascist movements can be defeated, these kinds of militarist movements 3:12:44.760 --> 3:12:48.520 can be defeated, but they they they they can only 3:12:48.640 --> 3:12:52.840 be defeated when we actually take our place as the 3:12:52.879 --> 3:12:55.600 subjects of history, right like we we we are that 3:12:55.640 --> 3:12:58.800 we are the people who, through our actions, create history, 3:12:59.120 --> 3:13:02.000 and you know when we also are the people who 3:13:02.040 --> 3:13:04.360 create the world we see around us. But you know, 3:13:04.840 --> 3:13:07.080 as David Graby was incredibly fond of saying, right, it's 3:13:07.080 --> 3:13:08.480 like we we are the people who create the world 3:13:08.520 --> 3:13:11.240 around us, and that means that we can it can 3:13:11.280 --> 3:13:16.400 be otherwise. And you know, when when we essentially like 3:13:16.480 --> 3:13:20.800 when we when we reclaim our you know, our our 3:13:20.840 --> 3:13:23.120 status is subjects or status is human beings are status 3:13:23.160 --> 3:13:27.160 as the people of which history is composed of. And 3:13:27.200 --> 3:13:31.080 we move we can stop these things like they're there. 3:13:31.120 --> 3:13:34.280 There do not have to be another Like there don't 3:13:34.280 --> 3:13:35.760 have to be more Nazis, they don't have to be 3:13:35.879 --> 3:13:38.200 more genocides, they don't have to be more worse. We 3:13:38.280 --> 3:13:44.160 can stop them. We just have to fight, right. I 3:13:44.200 --> 3:13:47.280 don't disagree with that. I think I think it's completely true. 3:13:47.360 --> 3:13:49.959 I guess I'm just I don't know, maybe I'm like 3:13:50.000 --> 3:13:54.680 a dum I don't know. I mean it's really hard 3:13:54.800 --> 3:13:59.000 right now to kind of see I guess sort of 3:13:59.680 --> 3:14:06.000 mass resistance forming in the US specifically just because of 3:14:07.080 --> 3:14:11.520 the way the pandemic has wrecked us, and I feel 3:14:11.600 --> 3:14:17.520 like people are I mean, people are just checked out, right, 3:14:17.560 --> 3:14:21.760 Like they're exhausted, they're broke. I you know, a million 3:14:21.760 --> 3:14:25.480 people have died because of because of the government's just 3:14:25.600 --> 3:14:30.480 complete lack of adequate handling of COVID and and so 3:14:30.840 --> 3:14:34.280 I completely agree that like this isn't inevitable, like we 3:14:34.440 --> 3:14:40.039 can stop this. At the same time, I just I 3:14:40.080 --> 3:14:44.400 don't know what it's going to take for Americans like 3:14:44.440 --> 3:14:49.959 as an entity to actually stand up and fight this. 3:14:50.120 --> 3:14:53.800 And I'm not blaming individual people because it's like all 3:14:53.800 --> 3:14:56.840 the reasons for people being exhausted and checked out are 3:14:57.040 --> 3:15:01.200 like also by design, right, because or like if we 3:15:01.360 --> 3:15:06.920 keep people exhausted and checked out, then the oligarchs at 3:15:06.959 --> 3:15:10.760 the top like can continue to like loot society. Yeah, 3:15:10.800 --> 3:15:14.040 I mean I think I'm sort of less sync when 3:15:14.240 --> 3:15:16.560 on that, just because, like you know, because I remember, 3:15:17.320 --> 3:15:20.240 this is the same thing that like everyone said right 3:15:20.240 --> 3:15:23.720 before the uprising, like everyone was checked out. Everyone was 3:15:23.760 --> 3:15:27.080 sort of like you know, like the pandemic had just started. 3:15:27.080 --> 3:15:29.800 Everyone there's this like general consensus that like mass action 3:15:29.879 --> 3:15:33.880 wasn't possible, and then you know, like two days later, 3:15:33.920 --> 3:15:36.240 they burned down they burned down a police station and 3:15:36.360 --> 3:15:39.680 like deluding the American Mile, and you know, it's like 3:15:39.720 --> 3:15:47.200 it's like it's these these things like you know, every 3:15:47.400 --> 3:15:53.920 like the the people who are in some sense the 3:15:54.000 --> 3:16:01.200 most in tune with like what is happening, it'll often 3:16:01.240 --> 3:16:04.080 tend to be the people who are most shocked by 3:16:04.240 --> 3:16:06.800 when when these kinds of things just emerge seemingly out 3:16:06.840 --> 3:16:11.320 of nowhere. And so I don't know, I think, I think, 3:16:13.959 --> 3:16:18.600 I think we can't know what exactly will set off 3:16:19.560 --> 3:16:21.680 the next wave, but I but I think it's a 3:16:21.720 --> 3:16:25.280 safe bet there will be another one, because there always is. 3:16:26.440 --> 3:16:29.200 We've never you know, we we have yet to hit 3:16:29.240 --> 3:16:32.240 a point so bad that people stop fighting like ever 3:16:32.520 --> 3:16:36.840 in history, so oh for sure. Yeah. And that's the 3:16:36.959 --> 3:16:40.280 long arc of history too, is it's like people have 3:16:40.360 --> 3:16:45.879 always been fighting for their liberation in some way, And 3:16:46.959 --> 3:16:50.480 if you look at the longer story, you know, there 3:16:50.560 --> 3:16:57.240 might be very long periods of darkness and repression and collapse, 3:16:58.560 --> 3:17:06.520 and then people emerge from that and new societies emerge, 3:17:07.000 --> 3:17:09.480 new ways of thinking all of that. And I think 3:17:10.720 --> 3:17:15.440 where we're at now, like at this moment, there are 3:17:15.520 --> 3:17:21.880 certainly small ways that people can resist and ways that 3:17:21.920 --> 3:17:24.680 we like we have to focus on, like our immediate 3:17:24.720 --> 3:17:28.360 communities too. You know, it's so easy to get to 3:17:28.440 --> 3:17:31.360 feel helpless when you like you look at things on 3:17:31.400 --> 3:17:34.360 such a grand scale. Because of course, like we can't 3:17:34.360 --> 3:17:36.640 all just like run into Ukraine right now and like 3:17:36.720 --> 3:17:41.280 stop putin like there's there's really not a lot we 3:17:41.360 --> 3:17:44.240 can do when it comes to like things like that. 3:17:45.240 --> 3:17:48.800 But we can like take care of our friends. We 3:17:48.840 --> 3:17:52.640 can like make sure that the people immediately around us 3:17:52.680 --> 3:17:56.440 like have what they need. We can like check in on, 3:17:56.560 --> 3:18:00.920 like you know, our on house neighbors. We can like, 3:18:03.879 --> 3:18:06.440 you know, some people here in Chicago are prepping to 3:18:06.560 --> 3:18:10.920 like take in Ukrainian refugees, for example, right now. And 3:18:10.920 --> 3:18:13.400 and that's like the sort of action that like is 3:18:13.680 --> 3:18:21.000 definitely going to be needed. Um. And you know, like 3:18:21.720 --> 3:18:24.440 when you look at the story of like something as 3:18:24.520 --> 3:18:29.560 as horrible and just like awful as a holocaust, like 3:18:29.640 --> 3:18:32.199 of course, there are all all these like small stories 3:18:32.240 --> 3:18:36.840 of like people who like sheltered, people who are who 3:18:36.840 --> 3:18:40.640 are being sought out, and you know, there were there 3:18:40.640 --> 3:18:43.439 were all these different kinds of resistance movements in Germany 3:18:43.480 --> 3:18:49.400 and in Poland. Um. And it's not just about like 3:18:49.800 --> 3:18:53.199 all the people that that Hitler killed. It is also 3:18:53.200 --> 3:18:56.240 about all the people that like we're that people managed 3:18:56.280 --> 3:19:02.120 to save, you know, and it is also like I 3:19:02.120 --> 3:19:04.760 don't know we we in America especially, it's like we 3:19:04.879 --> 3:19:07.400 gotta get away from the Hitler comparisons, which I know 3:19:07.480 --> 3:19:11.680 I just like just made, but like it's it's you know, 3:19:11.959 --> 3:19:15.360 like don't get me wrong, Like there's obviously like plenty 3:19:15.400 --> 3:19:18.240 of parallels, and it's important to be like students of 3:19:18.360 --> 3:19:22.360 history and like understand what's going on and everything, but 3:19:22.400 --> 3:19:27.960 like we don't. What we're seeing is like we're going 3:19:28.000 --> 3:19:30.480 to see a kind of fascism that is unique to 3:19:30.560 --> 3:19:35.400 our era, right, Like I don't know that Trump is 3:19:35.440 --> 3:19:38.040 going to come out and call for like outright genocide 3:19:38.400 --> 3:19:41.560 and like you know, build build deaf or like Rhonda 3:19:41.640 --> 3:19:45.160 Santis is going to get elected and like build deaf camps. 3:19:45.200 --> 3:19:48.000 Like it's going to look different than it has in 3:19:48.040 --> 3:19:51.400 the past, even if like some of the phenomenon are similar. 3:19:52.600 --> 3:19:55.440 So what we're looking at instead is like, especially with 3:19:55.440 --> 3:19:59.720 climate change, we're looking at a lot of controls over borders. 3:20:01.000 --> 3:20:03.760 And obviously some of that is like what's happening in 3:20:03.800 --> 3:20:06.560 Europe right now too, but you know, people are going 3:20:06.600 --> 3:20:11.760 to be looking to control resources like water, oil, land, 3:20:11.840 --> 3:20:15.640 as we know that they're like running out. And so 3:20:15.760 --> 3:20:20.120 this this sentiment against like immigrants especially, you know, that's 3:20:20.160 --> 3:20:24.840 something that is going to just keep getting worse, and 3:20:25.000 --> 3:20:27.320 so I think it makes it harder for people to 3:20:27.440 --> 3:20:33.119 I guess recognize that things are as bad as they were, 3:20:34.000 --> 3:20:42.520 if that makes sense. Um, And ultimately, like it's just yeah, 3:20:42.959 --> 3:20:47.039 mass resistance is the only way out, right, Like, the 3:20:47.200 --> 3:20:52.360 people have to resist and we can't keep waiting for 3:20:52.400 --> 3:20:59.080 like Joe Biden or or anyone to be our political savior. Yeah. 3:20:59.560 --> 3:21:01.560 I think I think that's a that's that's a pretty 3:21:01.600 --> 3:21:03.920 good note to end on. Yeah, thank you, thank you 3:21:03.959 --> 3:21:05.600 for joining us. Do you have stuff that you want 3:21:05.600 --> 3:21:09.960 to plug? Um, not at the moment. No, I mean 3:21:11.000 --> 3:21:15.600 I think, uh, I guess our Twitter account, but that's 3:21:15.600 --> 3:21:18.879 about it. Okay. Yeah, well this this has been This 3:21:18.920 --> 3:21:20.800 has been another episode if it can happened here. You 3:21:20.840 --> 3:21:25.279 can find us on Twitter and Instagram at happen here pod. Uh, 3:21:25.520 --> 3:21:28.000 you can find stuff at the Cool Zone. We have 3:21:28.000 --> 3:21:30.880 a website. Go there. Stop asking me for sources. They're 3:21:30.879 --> 3:21:34.520 they're on the website. They get out again uploaded. Uh. Yeah, 3:21:35.280 --> 3:21:45.080 So yeah, thank thank you once again. For twining us. Hey, 3:21:45.160 --> 3:21:48.280 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:21:48.280 --> 3:21:50.840 now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could 3:21:50.879 --> 3:21:53.240 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 3:21:53.320 --> 3:21:56.039 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 3:21:56.120 --> 3:21:58.120 zone Media dot com or check us out on the 3:21:58.120 --> 3:22:00.840 I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen 3:22:00.879 --> 3:22:03.800 to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 3:22:03.879 --> 3:22:07.320 updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources. 3:22:07.560 --> 3:22:12.880 Thanks for listening. Hey there, I'm Jess Milady Confetti here. Hi, 3:22:13.000 --> 3:22:15.760 I'm Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome 3:22:15.760 --> 3:22:18.920 to Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas 3:22:19.000 --> 3:22:21.680 tube leveled up, bringing an x F boost to the table. 3:22:21.840 --> 3:22:25.000 We picked the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and 3:22:25.080 --> 3:22:28.000 industries across the globe to help our listeners achieve their 3:22:28.000 --> 3:22:31.360 own Boss Level. We are not just creating a podcast, 3:22:31.520 --> 3:22:35.080 but a gamified an engaged community. Listened to Boss Level 3:22:35.120 --> 3:22:37.959 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 3:22:38.000 --> 3:22:43.440 you get your podcasts. Big Brother, North Korea's Forgotten Prince 3:22:43.560 --> 3:22:45.840 is a new true crime podcast that dives deep into 3:22:45.879 --> 3:22:48.960 the life and mysterious assassination of the man wants destined 3:22:49.000 --> 3:22:52.600 to be North Korea's next dictator. Join me evenly as 3:22:52.600 --> 3:22:56.200 we investigate a twisting tale of espionage, palace gossip, and 3:22:56.240 --> 3:23:00.200 political backstabbing, and dive into the motives and suspects him 3:23:00.240 --> 3:23:03.720 the most bizarre assassination plot of the century. Listen to 3:23:03.760 --> 3:23:06.439 Big Brother on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast 3:23:06.600 --> 3:23:13.080 or wherever you get your podcasts. M Hey, Elizabeth, you're 3:23:13.120 --> 3:23:15.760 the co host of that new podcast, Ridiculous Crime. Why yes, 3:23:15.840 --> 3:23:18.960 I am. You know it's ridiculous. Yeah, carpeting in kitchens 3:23:18.959 --> 3:23:21.520 and bathrooms? Oh wow, you are good. But you know 3:23:21.560 --> 3:23:24.560 what's also ridiculous? A sixteen year old who breaks into 3:23:24.560 --> 3:23:28.080 a car dealership and steals guy theories Lamborghini. What yes 3:23:28.160 --> 3:23:30.360 to impress a girl? I'll tell you all about it 3:23:30.440 --> 3:23:34.520 on Ridiculous Crime, our podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, 3:23:34.600 --> 3:23:41.039 heist and cons It's always murder free and ridiculous. Listen 3:23:41.080 --> 3:23:44.480 to Ridiculous Crime on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 3:23:44.640 --> 3:23:46.320 or wherever you get your podcasts.