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Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm jess Mi Lady Confetti here. Hi, I'm

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Speaker 1: Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas tube

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Speaker 1: leveled up, bringing an XP boost to the table. We

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Speaker 1: picked the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and industries

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Speaker 1: across the globe to help our listeners achieve their own

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Speaker 1: boss level. We are not just creating a podcast, but

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Speaker 1: a gamified, an engaged community. Listened to Boss Level on

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. HM okay recording. You have a story

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Speaker 1: to tell and maybe you thought I should start a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Meet Anchor. It's a powerful app that lets you record

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Speaker 1: a podcast anywhere and get it heard everywhere. All you

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Speaker 1: need to do is download the free Anchor app and

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Speaker 1: hit record. Just go to Anchor, dot fm, slash get started.

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Speaker 1: Your story matters, Make a podcast with Anchor. That's Anchor,

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Speaker 1: dot fm, slash get started. Great. I think we got it. Hey,

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Speaker 1: it's de Leeper. I'm here to tell you about my

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Speaker 1: brand new podcast, de Reliper. At your service, I'll be

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Speaker 1: sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds to uncover

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Speaker 1: what makes them tick and what they've learned from the

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Speaker 1: obstacles life has thrown at them, including Sir Elton John.

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Speaker 1: After a lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a

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Speaker 1: lot of betrayals, it's turned out to be the most

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Speaker 1: wonderful life right now that I've could ever imagined. Listen

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Speaker 1: to do Reliper at your service on the I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know.

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Speaker 1: This is a compoletion episode. So every episode of the

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Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and

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Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to

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Speaker 1: in a long stretch if you want. If you've been

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Speaker 1: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be nothing new here for you. But you can make

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Speaker 1: your own decisions, all right. We'll find so clever way

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Speaker 1: to introduce us. Huh. You know what, I might just

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Speaker 1: go with that. I will find some clever way to

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Speaker 1: introduce us, and that is that is the introduction now.

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Speaker 1: Because because I said it, Hello, welcome to it could

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Speaker 1: happen here today. We are going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: UM Internet privacy and some new bills that will possibly

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Speaker 1: undermine it. UM. Today I have with me Christopher Hello, Christopher, Hello,

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Speaker 1: I am here. I am. I don't know if excited

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Speaker 1: is the right word, but no, people are really excited

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Speaker 1: to come on the show. This is a this is

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Speaker 1: a mild dread of the Internet. I try because we definitely,

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Speaker 1: we definitely can. Things don't need to be always horrible

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Speaker 1: and grim, even when you're talking about things that aren't great.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, today we'll be talking about some some interesting things.

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Speaker 1: As per the title of this episode will probably be

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Speaker 1: related to we are talking about the proposed earn It Act,

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Speaker 1: and we'll just I'll explain what it is in the

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Speaker 1: different kind of implications that could have on how like

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Speaker 1: everyone uses the internet, UM, but also affects a few

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Speaker 1: specific types of people in particular. So but kind of

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Speaker 1: part of this whole thing. We're gonna start off by

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Speaker 1: talking about something a little bit different and then to

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Speaker 1: kind of segue to the inn An act. UM. So

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Speaker 1: last year, Apple, the company announced like a controversial plan

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Speaker 1: to install photo scanning software into every kind of every

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Speaker 1: every device. UM. Apple's kind of long been seen as

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Speaker 1: a pro privacy company UM. In the past, they have

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Speaker 1: like refused FBI demands to help investigators bypass locked phones.

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Speaker 1: So this this idea on this plan to create a

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Speaker 1: backdoor into the iPhone storage system to scan for photos.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of a big deal coming for Apple

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Speaker 1: because they were definitely, at least in the past, known

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Speaker 1: as a generally like out of all of the companies,

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Speaker 1: the ones that if you're dealing with sensitive matters, Apple

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Speaker 1: is generally generally the better one. That that it has

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Speaker 1: become less of a case in the past few years,

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Speaker 1: but that was that that definitely was the case. So

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Speaker 1: when when this kind of idea was announced, there was

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Speaker 1: a decently sized global coalition also formed to push back

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Speaker 1: on this thing UM and the company did pause the plan. Now,

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Speaker 1: this came out a time that a lot of different

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Speaker 1: kind of companies were also pushing back against not safe

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Speaker 1: for work materials UM, specifically for like like like relating

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Speaker 1: to the transactional money and banks. This was you know,

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Speaker 1: around the time that only fans was flip flopping on

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Speaker 1: whether they would actually have not safe for work kind

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Speaker 1: of materials as a part of this kind of growing

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Speaker 1: trend of like worrying about Um, the term now is

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Speaker 1: like child sexual abuse materials were traditionally was it's called

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Speaker 1: child pornography or you know. So it's part of this

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Speaker 1: kind of overall kind of extra fo because that tech

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Speaker 1: companies have about being worried that if they if someone

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Speaker 1: is doing that who is underage, or if someone's being

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Speaker 1: exploited who's underage. Um, you know, they could unfinancially hurt

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Speaker 1: the company. So they're trying to a lot lots of

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Speaker 1: companies have been trying to do this thing to prevent

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Speaker 1: that legal and financial issue for happening. Now, of course,

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Speaker 1: all this really actually ends up doing is just negatively

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Speaker 1: affecting sex workers. Um. But that's that's kind of a

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Speaker 1: topic for a different episode because we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: Arenet Act more specifically, and not not specifically talking about

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Speaker 1: only fans. But this was Apple's plan to kind of

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Speaker 1: scan all these photos to make sure that that they

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Speaker 1: were not you know, naked photos of and of children. UM. Now,

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Speaker 1: there's whole much of other privacy issues around that because

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously teens do take news and send them

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Speaker 1: to each other and there is really no stopping that. Um.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that all these shots are getting scanned

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Speaker 1: and then seen and then like it would be The

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Speaker 1: idea was that parents would be like alerted if something

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Speaker 1: was found on the phone auomatically, which means that for me,

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Speaker 1: I have a whole bunch of other issues with that,

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Speaker 1: Like that is a whole another kind of level, especially

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Speaker 1: for queer kids, like that is like that is a

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Speaker 1: whole again, but that that is mostly a whole whole

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Speaker 1: other discussion that I'm not going to talk about right

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Speaker 1: now because we are I do want to focus is

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Speaker 1: focus this more on the more on the earn it act. Um.

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Speaker 1: But so this this plan was paused, Um, But now

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Speaker 1: that may not necessarily matter actually, um, because Congress kind

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Speaker 1: of wants to force Apple's hand along with along with

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Speaker 1: essentially every other company that allows users to store or

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Speaker 1: share messages or kind of really any content. Um. And

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Speaker 1: Congress is some senators and there's a bill that will

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Speaker 1: try to essentially mandate photo scanning and specific photo scanning

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Speaker 1: technology approved by the government. So yeah, So while Apple's

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Speaker 1: plan would have put privacy and it's the security at

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Speaker 1: risk for all of us users, the Earned Act of

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Speaker 1: compromises the security and free speech for basically everyone who

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Speaker 1: uses the Internet. Um. The bill would create serious legal

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Speaker 1: risks for businesses that host content such as messages or

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Speaker 1: photos of stored in the cloud, online backups, and potentially

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Speaker 1: even any kind of cloud hosting sites such as Amazon

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Speaker 1: Web Services, which means basically most of the Internet UM

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Speaker 1: and based so have the all these companies, all these

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Speaker 1: services and companies would be in serious legal risk unless

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Speaker 1: they use this government approved scanning tools. A version of

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Speaker 1: this bill was first introduced two years ago, sponsored by

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Speaker 1: Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, and Senator Richard Blumenthal,

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Speaker 1: a Democrat from Connecticut. And now, like a lot of

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Speaker 1: these other things, it is allegedly aimed at tackling so

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Speaker 1: called child sexual abuse material online. UM. Which is which

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Speaker 1: is a problem there is the kids definitely do get exploited. UM,

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Speaker 1: kids do get groomed, exploited, photos of children do get

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Speaker 1: shared online. Uh. That like that that that actually is

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Speaker 1: a real issue. UM. Now, a lot of the ways

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Speaker 1: that these tools get implemented don't actually address that issue.

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Speaker 1: And of course it doesn't actually deal with the people

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Speaker 1: that do this, like you know, like the bad the

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Speaker 1: bad people that do exploit kids. It doesn't necessarily deal

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Speaker 1: with them either. That is that is what they wrapped

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Speaker 1: this idea as the original bills that was introduced two

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Speaker 1: years ago threatened encryption and privacy features that would have actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, put Americans privacy, particularly particularly the privacy of children,

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Speaker 1: UM at risk. It also got in section to thirty

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Speaker 1: in ways that caused over fifty civil rights groups to

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Speaker 1: pennel letter describing the potential consequences UM of such things

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Speaker 1: like censorship, um, you know, cramming down on free speech,

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Speaker 1: and the basically destruction of encryption. So when the legislation

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Speaker 1: failed to advance two years ago, digital UM, liberty advocates,

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Speaker 1: you know, sex workers, civil rights organizations all breathed a

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Speaker 1: sigh of relief. But this past month, as I record

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Speaker 1: this um in twenty in February, a group of lawmakers,

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Speaker 1: again led by Senator Richard Bluementhal and Senator Lindsay Graham,

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Speaker 1: reintroduced the Earnet Act UM, a slightly modified version of

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Speaker 1: it UM, and on the on the tenth of February,

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Speaker 1: the Senate to Judiciary Committee voted to advance the dangerous

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Speaker 1: earn It Act bill. So yeah, it is, it is.

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Speaker 1: It is chugging along a bit further than what it

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Speaker 1: did than what it did last time. The earn AT

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Speaker 1: Act aims to tackle the horrific criminal activity related to

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Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material by making Section to thirty protections

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Speaker 1: contingent on the prevention and response to such a material online.

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Speaker 1: So Section to thirty shields online services like you know

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Speaker 1: commonly used social media from liability from most user generated content.

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Speaker 1: Under earn it, a Section to thirty would be amended

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Speaker 1: to enable civil claims and state criminal prosecution related to

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Speaker 1: child abuse materials online against platforms. Now already this can

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Speaker 1: kind of happen federally a little bit, um but it

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Speaker 1: depends on how the company responds to it. So, but

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Speaker 1: this would introduce a whole new wave for civil claims

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Speaker 1: and state claims to be filed against companies like this.

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Speaker 1: Um if if if if if material like this is

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Speaker 1: to be found hosted on their site you know, including

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Speaker 1: you know that. That would even include if like someone

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Speaker 1: who's underage operates a not safe for work twit our

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Speaker 1: account that they probably should not be operating. Um but

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Speaker 1: this this you know this this could also this could

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Speaker 1: basically make the company in trouble. They could fall under

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Speaker 1: state claims or civil claims, so as as a result,

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Speaker 1: online services could be subjected to endless litigation under fifty

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Speaker 1: different you know legal law systems per you know, for

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Speaker 1: all the states regarding you know, finding child sexual beast

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Speaker 1: material online. So the bill's proponents claim that this isn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily a problem for any service as long as it

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Speaker 1: is scanning the files then reporting child sexual beast material

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Speaker 1: to law enforcement. Internet companies are already required to report

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Speaker 1: suspected material if they come across it, and they do

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Speaker 1: report material on a massive scale that often comes comes

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Speaker 1: with a lot of mistakes. Facebook is often held as

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Speaker 1: a positive example by what lawmakers and law enforcement for

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Speaker 1: how much they do report such such material. But while

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Speaker 1: their new scanning techniques have produced many millions of reports,

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Speaker 1: most of them are inaccurate. Like most of them actually

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Speaker 1: aren't of miners. It's it's it's not it's not actually none,

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Speaker 1: none of the scanning material is good because a lot

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Speaker 1: of cases, many people up into their thirties can get

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Speaker 1: often flagged and often like even non humans can get flagged,

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Speaker 1: like pictures of fruit because like like it's not like

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Speaker 1: it's not like, yeah, none of these scanning tools are

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Speaker 1: actually very good. Yeah, and like this is I think,

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Speaker 1: I think a thing that like, if you've never liked

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Speaker 1: had to work with a machine learning algorithm before, I

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Speaker 1: think it's difficult to understand how unbelievably bad these things are.

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Speaker 1: Like it's just these oh god, like the the the

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Speaker 1: incomprehensible horror of trying to get a machine learning algorithm

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Speaker 1: to do the thing that you wanted to do and

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Speaker 1: not do the the things that you're not that you

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Speaker 1: don't want it to do. To like, you know, be

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Speaker 1: able to tell a difference between like a particularly smooth

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Speaker 1: and round peach and like Child's exeibuse material. You know,

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Speaker 1: you human being can do this, right. The machine cannot.

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Speaker 1: And it is they it is horrifically inaccurate. You have

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Speaker 1: to do all kinds of like hacking stuff together in

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Speaker 1: order to get this stuff to work. And yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's a fiasco. A good example of this that

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Speaker 1: I've that I've heard before that I'm probably gonna butcher

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Speaker 1: this explanation, but you know that you can take, you know,

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Speaker 1: a photo of a wolf, um, maybe even three photos

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Speaker 1: of a wolf, and say here this is these these

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Speaker 1: are photos of wolves. Um, here's the here's other here's

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Speaker 1: here's these these are photos. Find which ones are wolves,

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Speaker 1: and it'll, you know, it'll it'll sort throw the ones.

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Speaker 1: So some of them have wolves, some of them don't.

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Speaker 1: Um and it only finds one picture that says this one,

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Speaker 1: based on the three photos you've given me, this photos

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Speaker 1: is a wolf, and instead the photo is not. The

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Speaker 1: photo is of a tree. And you're like, why did

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Speaker 1: it tell me this is a wolf? And the computer

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Speaker 1: will answer, well, look at all the all of the

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Speaker 1: backgrounds are the same because it's trying, it's trying to match,

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Speaker 1: like it doesn't have the same thing that humans do.

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Speaker 1: When when all these computer algorithms that are trying to

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Speaker 1: learn to replicate and trying find these patterns, it is

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Speaker 1: never perfect. So the big thing that is people often

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Speaker 1: overlook is that, yeah, specifically with this, like with with

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Speaker 1: Facebook scanning tool and the millions of reports that that

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Speaker 1: it does make. You know, federal law enforcement will frequently

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Speaker 1: use the massive number of reports to suggest there is

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Speaker 1: this giant recent uptick in child sexual abuse materials. But

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Speaker 1: that's not because there actually is. That's because this the

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Speaker 1: scanning that some companies are doing is just so bad,

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Speaker 1: Like it's just it's just some accurate that it flags

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Speaker 1: so many things, so like in action, the new earn

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Speaker 1: It Act would just pave a massive new surveillance system

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Speaker 1: run by private companies that would roll back some of

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Speaker 1: the most important privacy and security features and technology used

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Speaker 1: by people around the globe. Right, the idea is to

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Speaker 1: compel private companies to scan every message that sent online

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Speaker 1: and report violations to law enforcement. And it may not

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Speaker 1: stop there. That in an act could ensure anything hosted

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Speaker 1: online incular like backups, websites, cloud photos, and more, is

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Speaker 1: all scanned. Now, of course you can say, I mean

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Speaker 1: there is no actual true privacy online, right. The n

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Speaker 1: s A does see everything, which is basically true, but

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Speaker 1: stuff like local police departments in the FBI do not

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Speaker 1: have constant access to what the n s A has

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Speaker 1: It does actually like legally, it does actually take some

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Speaker 1: time for that to happen. The fact that all these

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Speaker 1: private companies would be doing it for them um and

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Speaker 1: the fact that this would actually break encryption makes people

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Speaker 1: like the FBI makes the local law enforcement have a

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Speaker 1: much easier time accessing what we do on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: because yes, the n s A kind of does always

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Speaker 1: see everything, but that that this actually this actually is

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Speaker 1: this actually is quite different in terms of the accessibility

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Speaker 1: of that information. And I think I think it's also

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Speaker 1: you know, to to to go back into one of

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Speaker 1: the sort of like encryption arguments to right, So, okay,

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Speaker 1: what once you put a backdoor into decryption? Right once

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Speaker 1: once once you have you know, you have your system,

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Speaker 1: you have your encryption system. But you know, now there's

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Speaker 1: now there's a way to access it, right, because oh,

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Speaker 1: well we need to access these you know, we need

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Speaker 1: to be able to decrypt this in order to see

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Speaker 1: if there's like child pornography materials on it. Right. Once

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Speaker 1: that backdoor exists, any anyone who finds it can use

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Speaker 1: it for anything they want. And it's it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: not even just that like well we'll get into some

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Speaker 1: other things around encryption, but but yeah, continue, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you know, and I think I think this is something

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Speaker 1: that I think people don't like. The people who are

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Speaker 1: just thinking about this in terms of child pornography don't

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Speaker 1: think about which is that like I don't know a

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Speaker 1: lot like there these these kinds of backdoors, right, like

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Speaker 1: other people can find them, yes, and you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: now now you've just put it back to it all

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Speaker 1: of the encryption, like oh, hey, here's you know, like

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Speaker 1: here you're you you are, you are going to get

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Speaker 1: people killed, and you're gonna get people killed because you're

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Speaker 1: going to have people who are doing things under governments

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Speaker 1: that you know, will will will Like you know, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have people in mel mart You're gonna have people

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Speaker 1: in You're gonna have people in Egypt. You're gonna have

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Speaker 1: people in Syria who like these these regimes and like

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Speaker 1: these you know, private private companies right are are going

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Speaker 1: are going to sell the backdoors to ease regimes and

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Speaker 1: they're going to use it to hunt down, torture and

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Speaker 1: kill people. And so yeah, there is there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of problems with them, especially especially how it how it

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Speaker 1: kind of addresses encryption, because the bill does try to

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Speaker 1: actually have some encryption protections, but the way they go

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Speaker 1: about it, of course is not is not adequate, and

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Speaker 1: it even kind of fosters it's its own negation in

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Speaker 1: some ways if you read the entire bill. So, but

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Speaker 1: I'll get more into encryption in a sec because there

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Speaker 1: are other like technical issues with the way this bill

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Speaker 1: is designed and how it would be enacted. There is

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Speaker 1: this sort of benefit to having a legal material that

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Speaker 1: is that is actually exploding miners being primarily hosted on

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Speaker 1: big tech platforms because these platforms are used so much

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Speaker 1: and are mostly non restricted, so it makes catching this

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Speaker 1: stuff and reporting it actually much easier, like it is

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Speaker 1: if they're hosted on these mainstream things. It does make

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Speaker 1: seeing it and reporting less difficult. So not only will

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Speaker 1: this bill make tech companies be more likely just to

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Speaker 1: ban all not safe work material in general, right, because

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Speaker 1: if companies are forced to scan and they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: filing swimming reports that this will this will result in

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Speaker 1: a lot a lot more companies just saying no new

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Speaker 1: photos at all, like just completely gone. Not only will

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Speaker 1: this bill just make tech companies more likely to ban

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Speaker 1: all not safe work content in general, which would be

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Speaker 1: horrible for sex workers and just a bad precedent. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: they would be more likely just to do that because

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Speaker 1: of how much overscanning there would be and just a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of things we'd create. It would create too

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Speaker 1: many fears of legal repercussions. Thus, you know, that would

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Speaker 1: force people who distribute child porn onto more sketchy sites

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Speaker 1: and sites that might just refuse to scan content in

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Speaker 1: general because they're temporary hosting. But the bill could also

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Speaker 1: just to scare these bad people off of mainstream platforms

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Speaker 1: and make them voluntarily migrate to more niche and hard

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Speaker 1: to find the corners of the Internet, making illegal content

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Speaker 1: harder to catch and take down, because there will always

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Speaker 1: be weird temporary sites to host this type of thing.

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Speaker 1: Like they're always they're like, these bad people will find

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Speaker 1: a way. It's always like that is it is gonna

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Speaker 1: always be a problem. Um. And so in a way,

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Speaker 1: it's it is better to have these things on mainstream

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Speaker 1: platforms because reporting them and taking them down can be

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Speaker 1: much easier. Um. It's it's like it's like when people

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Speaker 1: really advocate platforms like Telegram shut down all fascist channels, right.

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Speaker 1: The thing is is that there's a lot of benefits

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Speaker 1: to having these chat rooms on Telegram because it makes

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Speaker 1: them really easy to monitor and really easy to infiltrate. Um.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot worse places for fascists to organize. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you're doing it on Telegram, it's actually really easy

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Speaker 1: to watch. So it's this weird given take in terms

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Speaker 1: of in terms of where where these things happen, because

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Speaker 1: they are going to happen somewhere. So I now want

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Speaker 1: to talk about how specifically this bill threatens UH threatens

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Speaker 1: online encryption services all right, UM. The bill would strip

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Speaker 1: critical legal protection for websites, apps, and specifically Section to thirty.

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Speaker 1: If passed, it would empower many different levels of government

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Speaker 1: to make sweeping new Internet regulations right in individual States

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Speaker 1: will be able to pass laws UM to hold private

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Speaker 1: companies like libel um as long as they somehow relate

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Speaker 1: their new rules to child abuse materials. It's like they

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Speaker 1: they able to have a whole bunch of new rules

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Speaker 1: on Internet regulations if they can sift it through this lens.

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Speaker 1: The goal is to get states to pass these laws

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Speaker 1: that will punish that will punish companies when they deploy

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Speaker 1: end and encryption or offer other encryption services. This includes

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Speaker 1: messaging systems like What's Apps, Signal my Message, and as

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Speaker 1: well as web hosting like Amazon Web Services um earn.

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Speaker 1: It aims to spread the use of tools to scan

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Speaker 1: all online content against law enforcement databases like directly UM.

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Speaker 1: In a myths and Facts document and distributed by the

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Speaker 1: bill's proponents, it even names a government approved software program

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Speaker 1: that they could mandate called a photo DNA, which is

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Speaker 1: a program that Microsoft made that reports directly to law

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Speaker 1: enforcement databases. So arn it doesn't specifically attack encryption per

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Speaker 1: se um. But that's because it doesn't need to, Like

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have to because of the way the bill

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Speaker 1: is designed how it approaches encryption is actually a little

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Speaker 1: more insidious. Um. It allows the fact that encryption exists

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Speaker 1: on the platform itself to be used as evidence against

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Speaker 1: a company in order to find it liabele for hosting

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Speaker 1: child sexual abuse materials. So they can use the fact

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Speaker 1: that encryption exists as evidence, which is wild, Like this

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Speaker 1: is this is the thing. This is the thing that

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Speaker 1: CCP does a lot like with you know, like they'll

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Speaker 1: they'll use they're used the fact that like somebody is

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00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: using a VPN for example, as evidence that their turk.

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Speaker 1: This happens constantly and and it's it makes a lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of encryption stuff incredibly unsafe because like

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Speaker 1: you know, you show up with your phone, you have

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Speaker 1: signal on it, and like, well you're this is this

395
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Speaker 1: is this is proof. We're just gonna we're gonna locker

396
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: up and throw away the key. Yeah, and yeah, it's

397
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: extremely bad. So the result is that laws will make

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Speaker 1: companies liable um if they don't scan and report user

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Speaker 1: content for child, sexual beast materials, which they can't do

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Speaker 1: unless they make break encryption. You know, big companies like

401
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: Apple um are going to full to to protect themselves.

402
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 1: UM so earn it would is like it coerces these

403
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: sites and platforms and services to do this sort of scanning.

404
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 1: And not just some messages, but all online content encrypted

405
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 1: or not. UM. Companies that handle online content would have

406
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: to weigh the benefit of their users securely encrypting their

407
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 1: data content against the legal risk of doing so. UM.

408
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: And encryption becomes much harder when it, you know, puts

409
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Speaker 1: the company's bottom line at risk. And and and and

410
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 1: like and and and and. Encryption isn't just for messages, right,

411
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Speaker 1: It's it's not just on signal. It secures most of

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Speaker 1: the Internet, or at least at least a out of it,

413
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 1: keeping what you do allegedly you know, private unsafe online.

414
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Speaker 1: You can't have a secure internet where all the content

415
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 1: is also screened because you can't haven't encryption alongside mass

416
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Speaker 1: scanning requirements. It's just so, this isn't just an attack

417
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Speaker 1: on encryption, it's attack on any fund of fundamental security

418
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Speaker 1: that the Internet you know has. Yeah, and you know

419
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: there's lots of like god, there are lots of extremely

420
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,959
Speaker 1: technical reasons why this is an extremely bad face Like

421
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 1: it's like okay, yeah, like you you you think you

422
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: think malware is bad? Now like god, like look at

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00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: like the things the things that will happen, Like you

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00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: you think people are stealing apes now, like the things

425
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Speaker 1: that will happen if you have to if you have

426
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Speaker 1: to deal with an Internet that's unencrypted, are you know,

427
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: like you know, it's an absolute horror show like if yeah,

428
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Speaker 1: like I yeah, it's this. This is a thing bad

429
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Speaker 1: enough that like I do not have the words to

430
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: express how catastrophic this would be because it's just a

431
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: fundamental structure of the Internet. It really is not just

432
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 1: for messages like the earn it uh miss and fast

433
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: document also like specifically attacks Amazon for not scanning enough

434
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 1: of its content um and since Amazon is the home

435
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: of Amazon Web Services, which hosts a huge number of websites,

436
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: that implies that like the bill's aim is to ensure

437
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: that anything hosted online also gets scanned, like like like

438
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: everything the online service providers, even the smallest ones, will

439
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,479
Speaker 1: be compelled to scan user content with government approved software

440
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: like photo do an a UM and if earn It

441
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: supporters succeed in getting large platforms like cloud fair and

442
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 1: web services to scan, they may not even need to

443
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: compel smaller websites because the government will already have access

444
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: to the data through the cloud platforms. So like, as

445
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: long as they get you know, these hosting platforms, they

446
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: don't even like, they won't even need need to bother

447
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: with a lot of with a lot of smaller sites.

448
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: I think there's another thing I think that's probably worth

449
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: mentioning here, which is so we don't really have like

450
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: the time to fully go into this in this episode,

451
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: but like there's a lot of this sort of stuff

452
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: is being pushed by these incredibly right wing evangelical anti

453
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: porn groups and their goal is just to eliminate anything

454
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: that is not like part of their sort of fundamentalist

455
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: Christianity from the Internet and those people. And this is

456
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: this is particularly relevant to this because those people are

457
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: going to find a way to to to like to

458
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: bring lawsuits against these companies specifically so that they specifically

459
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: so that they can do is because this is you

460
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: know what what what you've done. Is that you've just

461
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 1: handed them a gun. Porn sites will all be taken

462
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: down because they'll be because they'll be facing so many

463
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: endless lawsuits um like only like only fans will no

464
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: longer host ethical poor like like not none of this

465
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: will have like all of it will be taken down.

466
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 1: No one like there this will this will attack sex

467
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: workers to such an absurd degree. Um it'll make base.

468
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: It will make a lot of, if not most, online

469
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: sex work just impossible because there will be so many

470
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: lawsuits always happening that companies will just always ban it

471
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: just because they can't. They can't risk dealing with all

472
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: those legal fees. Um it's it's yeah. And and and

473
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: in the fact that state prosecutors and private attorneys will

474
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: be able to drink an online service provider into court

475
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: over accusation that their users committed crimes and then use

476
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: the fact that the service chose to encrypt like like

477
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: chose to use encryption um at all as evidence against them.

478
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: Is the fact that the strategy specifically allowed under earn

479
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: it will like it makes the possibilities of this type

480
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: of thing just endless, like like imagine imagine, like they'll

481
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: be able to take down signal so easily because like

482
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's wild all if they can, if

483
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: they can find one instance of you know, as like

484
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: as like a of an abuser using signal or has

485
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: you signal, then basically all of signal description will be

486
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: severely threatened, UM because of the way that legal finds

487
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: will be forced onto this company. It's is like specifically

488
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: for stuff based like for any kind of in any

489
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: any service allowed in the States. And yeah, it's really

490
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,959
Speaker 1: frustrating because you know, people including senators UM who are

491
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: pro earn it, say that the new tools are necessary

492
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: to tackle the issue of online child abuse and the

493
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: and the distribution of illegal materials online. But you know,

494
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: obviously like possessing, viewing, or distributing child poor and or

495
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: child sexual abust materials is already written into laws. Is

496
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: a serious, like it's an extremely serious crimes can do yes,

497
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: and it has a broad framework of existing laws seeking

498
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: to eradicated. Right people cannot like companies can already get

499
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: in federal trouble if they're find if they're found to

500
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: continue if like you know, if stuff is found and

501
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: they continue to host it, or if they're going if

502
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: like their state of purpose is to hosted like like

503
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: some of the most trouble you can get into UM

504
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: at least at least like on the books, UM, because

505
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: you know you can you can look at you know

506
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: how many cops are involved with this type of thing

507
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: as like than to be like like like as evidence said,

508
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: like it doesn't like it may not get enacted upon.

509
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: Always there was there was a horrible story recently of

510
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: a teacher who sorry, this this is this is this

511
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: is this is going to be quite graphic, UM, but

512
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: of a like skip ahead like a minute or two

513
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: if you don't want to, UM of a teacher who

514
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 1: fed students UM food containing her husband's seamen UM. Her

515
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: husband was a cop and her and her husband again

516
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: who was a cop and the also the leader of

517
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: a swatch team UM had raped multiple children um as

518
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: like it had and had had pictures of children UM

519
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: and like like both of them were doing this together.

520
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: So like yeah, that's like the leader of swat teams

521
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: like police. Like the fact that like if you if

522
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: you look at the people often doing this type of stuff,

523
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: it's cops a lot of the time, Like the cops

524
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: raped so many UM kids that that they that they

525
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: arrest and detain. It is shocked. Like you you can

526
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: google this every week and you'll find you'll find like

527
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: new reports of it. It is, it is. It is horrific. Um.

528
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: And you know, online service providers that have actual knowledge

529
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: of an apparent or imminent violation of current laws around

530
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: child sexual beast materials are required to report it or

531
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: they will face legal trouble. Um. Yeah, like you you

532
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: could you can kill people and get in less trouble

533
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: with the law. Then then you will get if if

534
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: if you intentionally do this stuff like that, there are

535
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: scenarios where you can kill people where you won't get

536
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: in trouble with law. There is no scenario where you

537
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: do you you like you you intentionally do like you

538
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: intentionally do this stuff where you will like unless you're

539
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: a cop with like with with the legal protection of

540
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: your other cops won't rat you out, like yeah, or

541
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: you're like very very rich, yeah, like you know, un

542
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: unless unless you have extra legal protection. Yeah, like you

543
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: are fucking going to vanish. So yeah, like we already

544
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: have a lot of stuff to deal with this. And

545
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: the methods proposed by earn Itt would not only chip

546
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: at the last semblance of of of privacy online. But

547
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: it would all but it would arguably make actually combating

548
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: real instances of online check of online child abuse a

549
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: lot more difficult. It would pressure distributors and abusers um

550
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: into harder to find corners of the Internet that don't

551
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: fall under big tech companies UM. Plus, the massive increasing

552
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: content scanning would produce so many false flags it would

553
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: clog up any effort to find action materials because so

554
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: much stuff is gonna get flagged, right, it's gonna you're

555
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: gonna get a wave of so many images that you

556
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: have that you have sort, sort through and figure out

557
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: if the people in it actually are under age because

558
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people who look thirty and sorry, a

559
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: lot of people that are thirty can also look under

560
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: age sometimes like like with lighting, with the fact like

561
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: it's it is, it will be. It's gonna it's gonna

562
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: be such a task um And we can only see

563
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: this in effect with new scanning techniques used by Facebook.

564
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: They that have produced millions of reports to law enforcement,

565
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: most of them inaccurate. Um. Of course, federal law enforcement

566
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: use uses this massive number of reports produced by low

567
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: quality scanning software to you know, suggest there's a huge

568
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: uptick in these images. Thus, you know, armed with misleading statistics.

569
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: The same law enforcement groups make new demands to break

570
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: encryption um or with earn it, to hold companies liable

571
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: if they don't scan user content those scanning algorithms, right,

572
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: like you know, okay, this this is an oversimplification, but

573
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: like to to to conceptualize why this is a bad idea,

574
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: like these these are these like this is the this

575
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: is the same stuff that like you know how, you

576
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: know how there's there's there's those like trending topics on

577
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: Twitter and they'll they'll they'll show you a tweet and

578
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: the tweet will be like I don't know, they'll they'll

579
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: they'll be someone talking about a subway sandwich and it'll

580
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: get like it'll show up under trains. This those are

581
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: the algorithms that they want to fucking run the entire

582
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: Internet through. I have seen I have seen some very

583
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: I've seen some very erotic bell peppers um and like

584
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna like that these things are aren't going

585
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: to be good um And like independent child protection experts

586
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: are not asking for systems to read everyone's private messages. Rather,

587
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: they recognize that children, particularly children that might be abused

588
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: or exploited actually need encrypted and private messaging just as much,

589
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: if not more than the rest of us. Like, no one,

590
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: including the most vulnerable among us, can have privacy or

591
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: security online without strong encryption. UM. And the Earner Act

592
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: doesn't really just target big tech. What it does is

593
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: it targets every individual Internet user, treating all of us

594
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: as potential criminals who deserve to have every single message, photograph,

595
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: or document scanned and you know, compared against a government database,

596
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: like direct directly to law enforcement. UM And since direct

597
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: government surveillance would be you know, blatantly unconstitutional and promote

598
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: public outrage, U earn it to use as tech companies,

599
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, from the largest swaps to the smallest ones,

600
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 1: as its tools to kind of bypass that constitutional like

601
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: barrier um because yeah, if you, if you, if you,

602
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: if you, if you hit the touch companies where it hurts,

603
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: they will not allow this type of stuff at all.

604
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: Like and this is also you can you know, you

605
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: cannot deny this is also just part of a larger

606
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: effect to ban porn um and just to ban any

607
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: kind of sex work online as well. Like you you

608
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: cannot deny that this is this is this is definitely

609
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: an ingrained part of this, particularly with a lot a

610
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: lot of its supporters and of course you know Senator

611
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: Lindsay Graham appealing to that side of the Republicans. This

612
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: is this is a big part of just trying to

613
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: you know, remove porn and remove um, you know, any

614
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: not safe work material from being hosted online. So the

615
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: strategy is to get private companies to do the dirty

616
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: work of mass surveillance. UM. You know, it's the same

617
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: it's the same tactic that government's tried to use this

618
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: year trying to you know, convince Apple to subvert its

619
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: own encryption and scan all of its users photos. Um.

620
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: It's the same strategy that the that the UK law

621
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: enforcement is using to convince the British public to give

622
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: up their privacy, having spent public money on a laughable

623
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: public publicity campaign that demon as his companies that use encryption. UM.

624
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: So that that's really how it's operating. UM. I do

625
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: want to shout out, um uh the e f F

626
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: for providing a lot of the kind of research that

627
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: I used for compiling stuff on on this episode. UM,

628
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you e f F. UM

629
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: you often often do good work. That's the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

630
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: They focus a lot on like Internet privacy issues UM

631
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: and I do want to point people to a a

632
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: link tree. It is, uh you know, l I n K,

633
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: t R, dot E S stop earn it UM. So, yeah,

634
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: you can find different ways to UM. You know, if

635
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: you're the type of person that enjoys calling representatives or something,

636
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: it has. It has links for that kind of thing.

637
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: It has links to send you know, automated messages onto

638
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: your representative to vote no on the Internet Act. That

639
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: has too. You know, if if you're the type of

640
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: person that enjoys the signing petitions, UM, it has it

641
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: has more info on what earn it is and what

642
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: it does UM and a whole whole bunch of other

643
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: stuff around, you know, organizing to help stop this bill.

644
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: There's like discord channels that have people organizing to to

645
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: stop this bill. UM links links forward on that has

646
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: info on like actions you can take UM. So yeah,

647
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: I would uh if if you're interested in like looking

648
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: for the different ways that can maybe you know contribute.

649
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: You know, not no single person can make an impact,

650
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: but you know enough people, enough people can UM. So yeah,

651
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: that's link tree slash stop earn it um and then

652
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: also again another shout out to the e f F. Yeah,

653
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to make don't say two closing things before

654
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: we close this up. One if if you think that,

655
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,479
Speaker 1: if you think that once you're handing the entire content

656
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: of the Internet over to the government to run through

657
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: scanning groups, that the only thing they're ever going to

658
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: scan for is child pornography. I have no n f

659
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: D to sell you. It is a picture of a bridge.

660
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 1: Once once you buy this n f T of the bridge,

661
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: you will own the Brooklyn Bridge contact contact me for

662
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: more details. The second thing is that, um, you know,

663
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: when when we talk about like when we talk about

664
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: anti porn stuff, when we talk about how you know,

665
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: the way you get around this is by banning all

666
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: one different work content, right the other thing that almost

667
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,479
Speaker 1: immediately gets banned. It's inevitably when when when when when

668
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: companies for for whatever reason, and this is true just

669
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: of of of companies that are trying to comply with

670
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, like the app store or stuff like that,

671
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: like when when when whenever you get target things that

672
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: target not for working, they inevitably, inevitably without failed target

673
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: queer content content literally nothing at all through sexuality, because

674
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: that's you know, this is this is, this is this

675
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: has always been like accusing queer people of of being

676
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: child predators has been the attack line on queer people.

677
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: People are always on the front line of all of

678
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah, they will always be the first people impacted.

679
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: They will be the first people demonized, even if even

680
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: if even if it's not even not safe for material,

681
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: if if it has if it has nothing to do

682
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: with it, it will still always always be impacted more

683
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: than basically any anyone else. Yeah, I mean we've we've

684
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: been seeing this on YouTube, but constantly lots of lots

685
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: of people who just you know, make trans content clear

686
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: channels always being banned or demonetized, yep marked as a

687
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: belt content Like yeah, it's it's horrifying. And if if

688
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: you want an internet, not even just if you want

689
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: to Internet that has like sex on it, if you

690
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: want to Internet that has queer people on it, right

691
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: expressing themselves in in in in any way that's not

692
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: like literally just it's straight person but you say queer, right,

693
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: if if that's a thing that you think is valuable,

694
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: and if you and if you think that you know,

695
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: it is important for core people to be able to

696
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: express themselves for their own health and safety. Like you

697
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: have to oppost this, yes, you absolutely. Um. I guess

698
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: what one final thing I'll add because they know someone

699
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: will probably message me about it. Um. There is a

700
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: slight opinion piece by somebody saying that this bill would

701
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: actually let child abusers walk free because they could use

702
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: the fact that this bill essentially, um, you know, compels

703
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: companies to do scanning software via via government like mandate

704
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: because of this bill. They would that because because in

705
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: their mind, this could possibly violate the Fourth Amendment to

706
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: this would allow abusers, um, the evidence that they is

707
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: collected to prosecute abusers to become invalid in court. So

708
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: this would actually also make the this would just make

709
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: this would make the bill um uh, you know, actually

710
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,919
Speaker 1: make people walk free. I do not agree with this take.

711
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: I don't think that's how it would work out at all,

712
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: because especially for you know, you can use this for

713
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: like political organizing. You can use this for a lot

714
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: of like you can use this same argument for a

715
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: lot of cases, and it never works out that way

716
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: because the government does not care about that sort of thing. Um,

717
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not. That's not how it works. Um.

718
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 1: I mean the things that get violated like in theory

719
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: that does not know that's like they illegally seized you know,

720
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: ten Kazinski's you know, uh like evidence and yeah, you

721
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: know it doesn't it doesn't matter like that's that's that's

722
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: that's that's not gonna matter, because then this bill would

723
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 1: be seen as a good thing because it would prevent

724
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: people from you know, then the encryption wouldn't be necessary

725
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: because then none of the evidence that people would you know,

726
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: would have gathered would ever be admissible in court. And

727
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: that is that they would never design the bill like

728
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: that that that's not that's not the case. I disagree

729
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: with this take. So do not send me this article

730
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: saying actually it's going to have this happen, because I

731
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: do not believe it. Because this assumes that the government

732
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: operates like like coherently and operates like you know, like

733
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: no think the government does does does not care no

734
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: like again, like the First Amendment is superseded by traffic law,

735
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: like you know that you're not going to be able

736
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: to use this insistent like this will secretly let abusers

737
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: go free. This is not secretly a good thing because

738
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: it will make all evidence inadmissible in court. Bullshit anyway, Anyway,

739
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: I'll give a final shout out to the link tree

740
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: link tree slash stop earn it um. That's l I

741
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: n K T dot e er slash stop earn it

742
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: um if you're the type of person that likes doing

743
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: those types of things. And also it has like links

744
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: like discord channels for other types of organizing beyond you know,

745
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: petitions and calling and senators and sending messages and blah

746
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. Anyway, that's the episode. UM, thank

747
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: you for listening. I just thought, I just thought, this

748
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: is this is this is an important thing enough that

749
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: I haven't seen enough. I have not seen enough people

750
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,479
Speaker 1: talking about the Earned Act and the way it does

751
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: seriously threatened digital privacy. And because it was approved by

752
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: the Senate Judiciary Committee to be pushed forward, um, it

753
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: is actually chugging along on the slow legal process, so

754
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: it's gotten further than what it got. So I thought

755
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: it was actually worth talking about, um, you know, for

756
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: the privacy issues, how it affects queer people, how it

757
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: affects sex workers, um, and all all that general thing.

758
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, and also I wanted you know, it's very

759
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: easy to feel hopefuls with this kind of stuff, but like,

760
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: we've beaten legislation for I like, one of my one

761
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: of my formative childhood experiences was when was when we

762
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: beat when we beat soap, and people like we can

763
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: beat them. It takes it takes a lot, takes a

764
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: lot of mobilization, but yeah, like we we we we

765
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: we I know we can. I know we can beat

766
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: this because we've beaten things like it before. Agreed, all right,

767
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: that nothing for us today. If you to find us

768
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: on a currently more secure than what it could be Internet,

769
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter at cool Zone Media

770
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: um and happened here pod. I think apparently Instagram too,

771
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: So that's cool. If you're an Instagram person, good for

772
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: you because Twitter Twitter is bad. Um, you can find

773
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Hungry about tie Um yeah, find

774
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: me at three you can't. You can, indeed that that

775
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: us it for us UM encryption. Hey there, I'm Jess

776
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: Milady Confetti here. Hi, I'm Psyche and I am pay

777
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: Shady Lady And welcome to Boss Level Podcast, where we

778
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: feature conversations with gas Tube leveled up bringing an xp

779
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: roost to the table. That was always my response, because

780
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: is like I am like a unicorn here right, like

781
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: because there's not allowed of like out of the closet

782
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: female gamers. I know a lot of them. Like it

783
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: was like a battlefield, like this is our cool boys

784
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: club and here no, sorry, Honny, this is a very

785
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: dark corner and I'm a lot of light and right.

786
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: We picked the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and

787
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: industries across the globe to help our listeners achieve their

788
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: own boss level. We are not just creating a podcast,

789
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: but a gamified an engaged community. Listen to Boss Level

790
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever

791
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. And we're live here outside the

792
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: Perez family home, just waiting for them. And there they go,

793
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming out the

794
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: front door strong with a double arm kid carry. Looks

795
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: like dad has the bags daughter he is bringing up

796
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers

797
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed

798
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now

799
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or

800
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: ten has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips

801
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: the bad clothes and they're off, but looks like Mom

802
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,919
Speaker 1: doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof

803
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: of the car and there it goes. Ah, that's a

804
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the

805
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: small stuff, just nailed the big stuff, like making sure

806
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for

807
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t s A

808
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: dot gov Slash The Right Seat visits h s A

809
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: dot gov Slash the Right Seat. Brought to you by

810
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: Mitza and the Ad Council from Cavalry Audio, the studio

811
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: that brought you The Devil Within and The Shadow Girls.

812
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: Comes a new true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Murders.

813
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: The local sheriff believes there may be more than one killery.

814
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: It's been four days since those bodies were found, and

815
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: there's no stas it this morning. They were afraid to

816
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: face it out in that area. What if they come

817
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: back or whatever. It scared me to death, Like it

818
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 1: scared me. I was very very intimidating to live here.

819
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: Crazy to think you go to sleep one night, maybe

820
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: snuggling with your loved one and never wake up, or

821
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: maybe you wake up in a struggle for your life,

822
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: which you lose. Joint host David Radoman as he explores

823
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: one fateful night when evil descended upon small town, Ohio

824
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: killed eight members of an Ohio family in a pre

825
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: planned execution. The family was targeted, most of them targeted

826
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: while they were sleeping. Follow the Pink Moon murders on

827
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you

828
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. Um, obviously,

829
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: as I'm sure everyone is being bombarded with. The war

830
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: in Ukraine, is UH in its fifth day right now

831
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: something like that, Um, we just passed ninety six hours.

832
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: By some accounts, more than three hundred thousand people have

833
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: been made refugees. Those are going to be very in

834
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: exact numbers, but it's it's likely to be somewhere between

835
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: like fifty and a hundred thousand people per day being

836
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: made refugees, and it's possible that's gonna last for the

837
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: foreseeable future. Much of the coverage that you will have

838
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: seen at this point, UM is going to focus on

839
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: heroic pieces of of of resistance. You know, things that

840
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: Ukrainian civilians picking up arms, throwing molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers

841
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: destroying Russian armored columns. Some of that's going to be

842
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: a propaganda, some of that A decent amount of that's

843
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: actually happening. Obviously, we have a fair amount of documentation,

844
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: but what I think has not gotten nearly as much

845
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: play is the situation at the border of Ukraine and

846
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: Poland um because this refugee crisis is enormous, but it's

847
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: also not sexy and it points to a number of

848
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: things that are ugly about some of the stuff that

849
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: people like to celebrate. This con concluding the conduct of

850
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: President Zelinsky, who is I think handled himself objectively well

851
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: as a wartime leader, and who is also, as you'll

852
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: hear in the interview that's about to follow, made some

853
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 1: decisions that have had a catastrophic impact on people's lives.

854
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: So this is an interview conducted by a journalist H.

855
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: James Stout, who is working with us on this project

856
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: and with another project that will be launching soon, with

857
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: a person, an individual an American who was well as

858
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: a couple of different passports, but with a person who

859
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: was in Ukraine when the invasion began and left and

860
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 1: eventually wound up leaving on foot with tens of thousands

861
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: of other people for the Polish border. So this is

862
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: a story of what it is like to flee a

863
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 1: country at the beginning of a war, um and and

864
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians are going to

865
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: be facing every single day. So please listen there, Hey, manny,

866
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: how are you? I'm doing well? How are you good?

867
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: Goods very to keep you up later period exhausted, No, No,

868
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: it's okay, it's okay. Um. I actually just arrived at

869
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: a new hostel in New City, UM, and I'm going

870
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: to be up for a couple more hours anyway, so

871
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great, do you

872
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool, excellent, and

873
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: let me explain what we're going to do. So I'm

874
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: I'm bringing a piece for NBC on the the refugee

875
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: situation that's emerging, and then I'm also helping to make

876
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: a podcast for I Heart Radio about a similar thing.

877
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: So it's okay with you. We'll use the audio for

878
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: one and then some of your words for another. Absolutely,

879
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: how is my audio coming through it's great. Actually, it's

880
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: really really good. But you wanted to telephone or you

881
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: on a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I

882
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: don't have a computer with mechical. Now you're doing really well.

883
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record

884
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording.

885
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a

886
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. And so if we

887
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: go back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah,

888
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: So I was in Kiev a few days ago. I

889
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: was in Kiev eight days ago. Um, and then I

890
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: went to Leviv four days ago. Okay. And had you

891
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had

892
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: been I've been in Ukraine or I had been in

893
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: Ukraine in total for one week, okay, so you know

894
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: that long. And you so you rand in Kiev, you

895
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: went to Leviv. Can you remember, like where you were

896
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: when you found out that the invasion was happening and

897
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: that it was going to go past don Bass and

898
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: into Ukraine. Yeah, of course. So I woke up on

899
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: the morning of twenty four February to the sound of

900
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: air raid sirens outside, and it was a very confusing sound.

901
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: I had never heard it right, so I was in

902
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: real life. I just heard them in movies and television

903
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: shows and such, and I knew immediately what had happened.

904
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: I didn't even have to check the news, um. And

905
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: I did check the news soon afterward, and there were

906
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: bombings all over the country. There were reports of bombings

907
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: in a Banda front Kiss, which is a city on

908
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: KOs south of le Viv, where I was, and there

909
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: were so many rumors flying around. There were rumors that

910
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: the Russians were coming coming to Leviv at that moment,

911
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 1: which was not the case but can still be the

912
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: case very soon. Anyway, So we heard I heard these

913
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 1: these air raids sirens as I woke up, and I

914
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: shook away my roommate, who was a British journalist UM,

915
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: and I told him we might be bombed any minute.

916
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,240
Speaker 1: So we went outside to try and find a shelter.

917
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: UM pretty much still in our nightclothes. We went outside

918
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: to try and find a shelter, and they were loudspeakers saying, uh,

919
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: everybody remained calm, fine shelter helped the elderly stockpile water,

920
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: and it was repeating this unrepeat and people were shuffling along.

921
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: There was a sense of muted panic. So it was

922
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: an outright panic, but it was a sense of urgency

923
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: I guess you could call it it. And um, we

924
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: were at war and that was when I realized that

925
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 1: Ukraine was being invaded at that very moment. Wow, yeah,

926
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: it sounds dramatic. And at that point you went to

927
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 1: the shelter, I'm guessing, so did you spend some time

928
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 1: then before making a decision to head to polent So

929
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 1: after about fifteen minutes, the air rates I would stopped.

930
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: The news generally came around the city that Lviv was

931
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: not about to be bombed, but nevertheless, massive exodus of

932
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: people began from Lviv at that moment. Because okay, we're

933
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: safe for now, but for how long are we safe?

934
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: Was the general sentiment that was around. So, Um, everybody

935
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: just started making for the train station, the bus station,

936
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: They got in their cars. People were just leaving. There

937
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: were huge lines at the A T. M. S. There

938
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: were huge lines at the grocery stores. People were buying

939
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: no perishables. Um, it was just not a panic full

940
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: out I would call it, but it was an urgent departure.

941
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: It was an an exodus that was happening, and so

942
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: me and my roommate we went to the train station,

943
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: waited in the line for two hours to see if

944
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: there were tickets. There were no tickets. We went to

945
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: the bus station. We waited in the line for one

946
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: hour to see if there were tickets. There were no tickets,

947
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 1: um and so then we started to get a little

948
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: worried because it was noon on the day of the invasion.

949
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: Russian forces were everywhere in the country. Of our bombings

950
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 1: everywhere in the country, and we had to leave, and

951
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: there was no viable means to leave. The airport was closed.

952
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 1: Of course, the airport was being bombed a few hours later.

953
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: Um and so we tried to look into car higher.

954
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: We tried to see if we could rent a car.

955
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: We tried to see if we could take an Uber

956
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: or a lift or a blah black car, which is

957
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian version of Uber, and none of those options

958
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: were available. Because everybody was thinking the same thing and

959
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: in a sense of almost resigned to spare, we decided

960
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: that it would be best to just start walking last

961
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 1: and see what happened. And it was around noon when

962
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: we began to walk west. Wow. UM so when you

963
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: you set off to walk, did you just sort of

964
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: take what you could carry and that's sort of what

965
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: most people were doing, or did you get the sense

966
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: that at least the people were like preparing for a

967
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 1: long period of time away when they left. The people

968
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 1: certainly were not preparing for a long period of time away.

969
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: The people were not preparing for war. Um For the

970
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: longest time, President z of Lynski and the Ukrainian government

971
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: maintained that there would be no war. They called indications

972
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: of war alarmists, they called them ludicrous. And uh, it

973
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody

974
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: sort of woke up and said there's going to be

975
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 1: a war. So I remember the last day before the invasion.

976
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: People were getting ready, people were waiting at the A

977
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 1: T m s. People were buying groceries, people were packing.

978
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: But it was not before before that time nobody was

979
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: getting ready for the war. And so when the war struck, everybody, uh,

980
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: everybody just sort of left hastily. And it is a

981
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: terrifying departure, of a sudden and terrifying departure because people

982
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do and they just sort of

983
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: grabbed what they had and they ran. Luckily for me

984
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: in my roommate, we were traveling with you know, just

985
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: one pack or so because we were not living in Ukraine, um,

986
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: and so we were able to just carry what we

987
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: had on our backs. Yeah, so he told me through

988
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: that wook then it's I think that's sortays like forty

989
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: three miles is a right, that's that's right. So we

990
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: did take a municipal bus a little bit of the way,

991
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: which are from municipal bus. I believe it was five

992
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: kilometers down the road road, um. Five kilometers being like

993
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 1: three miles down the road um. And the total distance

994
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: from Lviv to the border is eighty eighty kilometers, sorry

995
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: eighty kilometers, so that really did not make a dent

996
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: at all in the distance. And it was noon when

997
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: we started, and we knew for a fact that um,

998
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: that we would not make it before nightfall. And we

999
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: knew that and we were terrified at that. So at

1000
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: first we walked along the countryside was picturesque, it was beautiful.

1001
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: It was indistinguishable from holiday during springtime. There was a

1002
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: fair fair, weather was sunny, um, and no one could

1003
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 1: even tell that the nation was at war. There was

1004
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: really nobody else walking on the road besides us in

1005
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: the beginning and the first twenty kilometers, I would say, um.

1006
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: And then we started seeing long lines of the petrol stations.

1007
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: Every everywhere was out of gas. There nobody had gas. UM.

1008
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 1: There was just no ability to fuel cars. And as

1009
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: a consequence of that, UM, cars were running out of

1010
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: gas and they were being abandoned on the side of

1011
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: the road, which caused further traffic pile ups, and soon

1012
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 1: the road was impenetrable to vehicles. UM. And so because

1013
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: of this, everybody started getting out of their cars and walking.

1014
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: And so these families who had planned to escape u

1015
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: Crane to Poland in their cars and carry their lives

1016
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 1: with them were suddenly faced with the hard decision of

1017
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: taking what they could carry with them. Yeah, that just terrible.

1018
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: That sounds really difficult. And I'm sure you saw like

1019
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: older folks and younger people as well, with people sort

1020
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 1: of and struggling to that's a long walk, right, It's

1021
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: not a walk and everyone could do it, must be

1022
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: very dear. It's a difficult walk for a young man,

1023
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: and many old women and little children under the age

1024
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 1: of five or forced on this march because there really

1025
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: was no other option for them. It was either go

1026
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: back to Ukraine and risk being bombed, risk being under

1027
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 1: Russian occupation, or it was get out of your car

1028
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: and walk in the wintertime with no food or water,

1029
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 1: no toilet, four fifty miles. And it was just this

1030
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: nightmare scenario because all these people were on the road.

1031
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't negotiate the mud.

1032
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: There were mothers with strollers who couldn't get get the

1033
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: children um out, and the children were crying, and the

1034
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: children were asking why are we here, what it will

1035
00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: be doing? Why didn't we have to leave home and

1036
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: stand walk fifty miles in the middle of winter um

1037
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 1: And the old people were sort of resigned to it.

1038
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: They There was one old woman I passed too, was

1039
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: using a cane and she was hobbling along jade a backpack,

1040
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: and I asked her where are you going, because we

1041
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 1: were a part we were a long long way from

1042
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: the border, and she said, I'm going to Poland, very simply.

1043
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 1: It was a very matter of fact, um statement. And

1044
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: so these people walked with a sense of duty and

1045
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: a sense of urgency and um it was just a

1046
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: very tragic humanitarian scene. Yeah, I can imagine. And that

1047
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: was a major that was a major route that you're on, right,

1048
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: like a major road that just become impossible. It wasn't

1049
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 1: one of the bigger highways, but it was I believe

1050
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 1: the M eleven, the Ukrainian M eleven and it runs

1051
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: east to west throughout the country, and uh, yeah, it's

1052
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 1: one of the major roads and it had become completely clogged. Yeah.

1053
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: So on arrival in Impoland or owed the border. And

1054
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: I understand that there's some men like broadly defined as

1055
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: like military age eighteen to sixty, I think allowed us

1056
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 1: and leave because they they have they have to stay

1057
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: in it and enlist. Is that right? Did you see? Yes?

1058
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: The border was absolutely the worst part. For that reason.

1059
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: About five kilometers from the border. At the end of

1060
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: our walk, we were feeling relieved. We were feeling like,

1061
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: finally we've made it. Ukrainian military patrols started walking by

1062
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: and driving by and announcing through loud speakers and announcing

1063
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: with their own voices, Um, all men must stay. All

1064
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: men between the ages of eighteen and sixty have to stay.

1065
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: Get out of line now. And so the fathers naturally asked,

1066
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: because there were a lot of fathers who were there

1067
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: to protect their families, to safeguard their families, and to

1068
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: provide for their families. Uh. These fathers asked, how about us,

1069
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: we have we have little children, We have children under

1070
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: the age of five. How are we supposed to provide

1071
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: for them if you conscript us? Right here? The Ukrainian

1072
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 1: Army did not care. They pulled them away physically from

1073
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: their family. There were a lot of tears. There was

1074
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: a lot of crying. There were a lot of hurried goodbyes.

1075
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: Brothers left sisters, mothers left, husbands, um, lovers left each other.

1076
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: People people just left. It was terrifying to watch. Um. Yeah,

1077
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,439
Speaker 1: all these men were conscripted immediately into the army. Yeah,

1078
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: I can imagine. And what people at that point like

1079
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: it seems like that were ready to be stoic. Up

1080
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: to that point, were people sort of resisting that, like

1081
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: just what they like, sort of sad but resigned to

1082
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: it was Maure that was that. Well, that was when

1083
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: the panic began, because everybody was sad but resigned to

1084
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: their faith of walking to Poland. But nobody was prepared

1085
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: for losing all the men. Um. So when all the

1086
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: men were lost, when all the men were taken forcibly,

1087
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: and this was public. Everybody could see these men being

1088
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: yanked from their families. People first started yelling at the

1089
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: soldiers that didn't do anything obviously, um, and they were

1090
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: they were so angry at the soldiers and soldiers were

1091
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: didn't care. Um. And then panic began because people realized,

1092
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: oh my god, this this person who was here with us,

1093
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: who was a travel companion, who's a relative, now we

1094
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: have to leave without him. And even more, he's going

1095
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: to the front now and he is in great danger

1096
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: at the front. So people began pushing, they began shoving,

1097
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 1: they began being rude to one another. Um. There there

1098
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: was no sense of empathy among the people at all

1099
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: because it was a panic to get across the border

1100
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: at that point. Um. So there were people fainting, uh,

1101
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: and that was really just overlooked. The people who fainted

1102
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: were sort of dragged to the side and left there.

1103
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 1: And I think they they made it. I don't know

1104
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: if they made it out, Okay, they certainly didn't die.

1105
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: But there were people who were fainting. There are people

1106
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: who were sobbing there or people who were hyperventilating. There

1107
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: was vomiting going on it was just this sense of

1108
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: absolute human panic as people just tried to escape in

1109
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: the last in the last five kilometers and especially in

1110
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: the last was the very worst. So, yeah, terrible thing

1111
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: to see if you hadn't say you stay in touch.

1112
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 1: He's one of the lads who was conscripted, right, Yes,

1113
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 1: that that was a development from tonight. So while we

1114
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: were walking about, this was about fifteen kilometers out from

1115
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: the border, we met a young Ukrainian man, UM and

1116
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 1: we just got to talking to him because, I mean

1117
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 1: we could relate to him. We were about I'm about

1118
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: the same age as him, um, and so I we

1119
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: were just like sort of talking about our lives and

1120
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: it was almost as if the war wasn't going on.

1121
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: And then we got to these army checkpoints, um, and

1122
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: they started calling all the men you have to you

1123
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 1: have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh,

1124
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight

1125
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 1: in this war. And you tried to, you know, sort of, um,

1126
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: stay with us. Because we were foreigners, we were not

1127
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,439
Speaker 1: we were not eligible to be conscripted. So he sort

1128
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: of tried to stay with us. He was he was

1129
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 1: a student, he was trying not to fight in this

1130
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a

1131
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: girlfriend who who was traveling with U, and so we

1132
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: we were walking with him and I said, hey, do

1133
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: you want to do an interview? He said sure, UM,

1134
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: and I started talking to him on camera and then

1135
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey,

1136
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: you get out of line. And UM, he said, I'm sorry,

1137
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: I have to go, and he just gave me this look,

1138
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: like this despairing look, and he went with the soldier. UM.

1139
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: The two days later today tonight, he messaged me on

1140
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: Instagram and he said, because we by the way, we

1141
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um. He

1142
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I saw

1143
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: that you mentioned me in uh in your Twitter because

1144
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: I told him about the Twitter as well. UM, and

1145
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 1: he said, just letting you know I'm safe, uh in Viv.

1146
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: I'm not in the east fighting the Russians. Um. I

1147
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is

1148
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 1: my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he

1149
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: would otherwise be in the East, but UM, I'm not sure.

1150
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: I just know that he was safe right now. And

1151
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 1: he confirmed that he was safe okay, So so yeah,

1152
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's

1153
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 1: in some rearrestual role or if he's managed to get

1154
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: out of it. To hihow, I know that he has

1155
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: managed to escape the brunt of the hiding with the Russians,

1156
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 1: that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, but it's

1157
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: still a terrible thing to have to do with. So

1158
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: it's my understanding. It's that visa. There's visa free entry

1159
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: into Poland right now, Is that right? That people can

1160
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: walk aggressive? Yes, The entry into Poland was an absolute

1161
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: priest compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why,

1162
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: but you have to wait in a long line in

1163
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: Ukraine for an exit piece, just for permission to leave

1164
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the

1165
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: worst part because they were only letting ten people out

1166
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: every twenty minutes. That ten people get an icon visa

1167
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand

1168
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: people at the border with US, and so that's that's

1169
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 1: where this panic is because every time they opened that

1170
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: gate every twenty minutes, and by the way, this is

1171
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 1: like two in the morning in the cold weather, and

1172
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 1: people are as I mentioned crying, vomiting, fainting, um. And

1173
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 1: so every time they opened that gate, there was a

1174
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: human crush to get to that gate, and it closed

1175
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: it and they forced the people back, and then it

1176
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And this

1177
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: happened all night long. Um. And this was literally just

1178
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous,

1179
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 1: it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert

1180
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 1: from your question, but it's very interesting. Poland was extremely

1181
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 1: easy to enter. There was no visa process. They understood.

1182
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 1: They let us through. I think they just barely looked

1183
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: at our passports. Um. So yeah, it was it was easy.

1184
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 1: Were you at that point, like obviously had no plans

1185
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: or places to go? So the could day house you

1186
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: with some kind of refugee housing that they put you in.

1187
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: Uh not when I was there, Um, they did do that.

1188
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: They did implement that about twelve hours after I arrived. Um.

1189
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: But when I arrived, we were greeted immediately pretty much

1190
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: right out of the border facility with donuts and tea. Um.

1191
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: And so they gave us donuts, they gave us a

1192
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: te um, and then they said, hey, there's a bus

1193
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,439
Speaker 1: to Premisshill, which is the city about fifteen kilometers west

1194
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: of the border, um where all the refugees are gathering.

1195
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: And they said there's a bus the Premiership at least

1196
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 1: every fifteen minutes, and we got on that bus um

1197
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: and then we end up. We arrived in Premiershill, and

1198
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: at that time refugees were responsible for their own accommodation.

1199
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 1: We managed to book a room in a hotel with

1200
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 1: eight other refugees UM in the room. Uh. And so

1201
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 1: I was sleeping in this this room with eight other refugees.

1202
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 1: They didn't want to talk to me. They were kind

1203
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 1: of despondent. They lost everything and so they were just

1204
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: very sad the entire time that I was there. But

1205
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: to answer your question about housing real quick, uh, about

1206
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 1: twelve hours after we arrived, they began setting up tents

1207
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 1: for the refugees and that is where many of the

1208
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: refuge us are living. Now. Okay, it's that you know

1209
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: that's a Polish government or the Red Cross or is

1210
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: that citizens to Poland. I have no idea which organization

1211
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: did that, but I can tell you that I did

1212
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: not see a single Red Cross or United Nations representative

1213
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 1: while I was in Poland. Okay, interesting, Yeah, they can

1214
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: be sometimes a little slow to react. Yeah, yeah, okay,

1215
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: So you then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able

1216
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: to really talk to the people there, which understandable. They

1217
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: probably had a very very difficult twenty four hours and

1218
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: we all have had. Yeah, I mean, no talking was

1219
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 1: being had pretty much. Did you get a sense when

1220
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 1: as you met the people walking there crossing the border,

1221
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 1: et cetera, where people did they have plans to be

1222
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: gone from Ukraine? Were they thinking where can I stay

1223
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: for a long period of time? Were they thinking I'm

1224
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: going to wait this out in Poland? And see? Um?

1225
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 1: I was pleasantly surprised that a good half of the

1226
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 1: people that I spoke to in that in that convoy,

1227
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: in the refugee caravan had relatives either in Poland or

1228
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: elsewhere in Europe. Um, and so they were all they

1229
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 1: had all called their relatives and they had arranged them

1230
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 1: to go to Western Europe and meet the relatives. Okay, yes,

1231
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: and they've got a place and they're planning to at least. However,

1232
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: another half of them have no plans whatsoever, and they're terrified.

1233
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: And those are the refugees that I stayed with the

1234
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 1: hotel last night. Um is that they're terrified and they

1235
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 1: have no place to go. Yeah, right, and no one's

1236
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 1: really provided them with one yet. And yeah, that's difficult,

1237
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 1: and it seems like I have to be interesting to

1238
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: see how the United States three acts because it hasn't

1239
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: really done very much so far. Um, it's amazing. I

1240
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 1: heard that the reason I crossed at that place rather

1241
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 1: than any other places that I heard that the U. S.

1242
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: Army was there and I did not see the U.

1243
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: S Army and I searched for them and I did

1244
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: not find them. So I don't know where the US is. Okay, Yeah,

1245
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: you haven't seen any any evidence of like any seeing

1246
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: no sort of n POS or government sort of aid

1247
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: for refugees yet. Then it's kind of surprising. As I

1248
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: mentioned that, I I haven't seen any U N representative, any

1249
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: Red Cross representative, any WHO representative. I haven't seen any

1250
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 1: NGO or governmental representatives. I did see, of course Polish

1251
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: government representatives at the border, but that was about it,

1252
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 1: right it said from Polish people. Do you get a

1253
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 1: sense of sort of solidarity? How I think talk about

1254
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 1: So it was actually amazing to see. It was heartwarming

1255
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: to see. The citizens of Freshman Dell are now swamped.

1256
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:41,760
Speaker 1: Their population has been doubled or tripled by the incoming

1257
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 1: Ukrainian refugees, and yet they are showing great amounts of solidarity.

1258
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 1: I actually attended a solidarity rally today, um where the

1259
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: citizens of Freshman Dill got together and they said Ukraine

1260
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: is our our brothers and putin us clearly in the wrong,

1261
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: and we will stand with them, We will show solidarity

1262
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: with them. That was hard for me to say. I

1263
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 1: talked with a few of those Poles at that rally

1264
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: and they said, yeah, we knew this was coming and

1265
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: we prepared for it, and we're ready to take in

1266
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 1: as many as it is necessary. Yeah, that's really nice

1267
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 1: to herite at least people a sort of showing slidarity

1268
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: with each other, in support with each other. And yes, yeah,

1269
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,759
Speaker 1: So when you were on your way west, I presume

1270
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: that like the conflict didn't catch up with you, right,

1271
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 1: you weren't to be sabject to like in direct fire

1272
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 1: or you see any of that. No, however, there was

1273
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: about fifty KOs behind us a bombing. As I mentioned,

1274
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 1: We did not hear it, but there were reports of

1275
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: the fighting going on all the time, but it's not

1276
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 1: catch up to us while we were in that while

1277
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: we were in that caravan, and um, it would have

1278
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 1: been absolutely terrifying if it had. But I'm glad that

1279
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 1: it did that, right. Yeah. And then so you've been

1280
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: there for about a week. Had you previously been doing

1281
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 1: some reporting in Ukraine. I've never done reporting in Ukraine

1282
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:01,560
Speaker 1: but four. But when I came to Ukraine and the

1283
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 1: war had not had started, I was mostly just doing

1284
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: interviews with civilians about what they thought about the possibility

1285
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 1: of war, about what they thought about the war, and

1286
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: don Bass um most a lot of cultural stuff. It

1287
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: was kind of boring. I mean not that not that

1288
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 1: war is interesting or fund but it was not really

1289
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 1: much of a story. Um. So I was just doing

1290
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 1: interviews with people about basic Ukrainian things. And then the

1291
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 1: war found us so right, and it seemed to have

1292
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 1: come as much a shock to them as it did

1293
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 1: to the rest of us. As I mentioned, nobody was

1294
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: prepared for war until about twenty four hours before it hit,

1295
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 1: and that's when the Ukrainian government said, yes, there will

1296
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 1: be a war, and everybody began sort of to have

1297
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: a sense of urgency about them, right, did you see

1298
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,599
Speaker 1: any of the citizen militias and citizens preparing for defense

1299
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,559
Speaker 1: the people who decided to stay. Yes, I didn't see

1300
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: any of the militias, but I was went into a

1301
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 1: Ukrainian gun shopping Kiev and there was a line almost

1302
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 1: off the door. People were buying guns, um And I

1303
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 1: asked one of the people on the line, why are

1304
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 1: you buying a gun? And he said, if the Russians come,

1305
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:13,000
Speaker 1: I want to be prepared. So a lot of people

1306
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 1: are buying guns privately and chief at least as of

1307
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 1: last week, okay, so that they weren't waiting for the

1308
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 1: government to supply. Then they were supplying themselves with guns.

1309
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: I believe. I believe the government's supply was a rather

1310
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: um my sudden decision. I don't think the ngraainting people

1311
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: were counting on it. And so they were supplying themselves.

1312
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 1: And they're buying like like collashing cough to the rifles

1313
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,679
Speaker 1: we talked about rifles. Yeah, you can't buy clashing cobs

1314
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: in the gun store. They were buying sort of hunting

1315
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:43,839
Speaker 1: rifles and shotguns. Jesus. Okay, yeah, yeah, really under equipped,

1316
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 1: all right, So they were just prepared to trying to

1317
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 1: get anything they could get their hand zone to look

1318
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 1: after themselves and their families. Yeah, I bought pepper spray.

1319
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: Yeah that it in nothing. Yeah, okay, so yeah there

1320
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: was there was Did you see like the people well

1321
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 1: you walked with with it. Did families tend to leave

1322
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: as a whole or did did some folks so say

1323
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to stay behind and fight, or I'm going

1324
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 1: to stay behind to stay and look after a house

1325
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 1: and you should leave. Did you get into that the

1326
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:17,200
Speaker 1: vast majority of people traveling were families as a whole.

1327
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:21,040
Speaker 1: There were very few single travelers or partial families traveling.

1328
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:23,360
Speaker 1: It was I think that people wanted to stick together

1329
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 1: and so it was the vast majority of people traveling

1330
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 1: were families. Okay, yeah, yeah, state or left. Do you

1331
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 1: get a sense of how many people you said about

1332
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 1: two thousand people there at the border, like of what

1333
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 1: proportion of the city decided to leave for Poland not

1334
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 1: all the people that the border were from leviv Um.

1335
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 1: A lot of them have been traveling since that morning

1336
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 1: from Kiev, uh and other cities in uh central western Ukraine. Um. So, yeah,

1337
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 1: I was talking to people at the border, and a

1338
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 1: lot of them were from Kiev. A lot of them

1339
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: were from zephyr Zisa, I'm pronouncing that wrong. A lot

1340
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 1: of them were from turn of Pill or Ivana, frankisk Um,

1341
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 1: or Odessa, and uh so I would not have any

1342
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 1: sort of conjecture on what percentage of the city. Also,

1343
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,559
Speaker 1: it was still pretty early in the crisis, because it

1344
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 1: was still the first day and it was fewer than

1345
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 1: twenty four hours after the invasion began, So I imagine

1346
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 1: the numbers are a lot higher now. When you were

1347
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 1: getting news right, if you were traveling, etcetera, were you

1348
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 1: like on Whatsapple? What people on Twitter? Like? How are

1349
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 1: they getting news of what was happening? Everybody, and absolutely

1350
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 1: everybody was completely dark during the walk. Um because I

1351
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 1: don't know why, but there was no sense of cell reception,

1352
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 1: there was no sense of data reception, there was no

1353
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 1: sense of Internet connection at all during the walk. And

1354
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 1: so everybody I met, we we asked, we asked everybody

1355
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 1: we met, do you have any news? And they said no,

1356
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,679
Speaker 1: do you have any news? Um, So nobody had any

1357
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 1: news until we got to the border. Some people had news,

1358
01:12:56,840 --> 01:13:00,559
Speaker 1: but for about about sixteen hours we were completely in

1359
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 1: the dark about what was going on. And that was

1360
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,759
Speaker 1: terrifying because when we left the invasion had just begun

1361
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,559
Speaker 1: and we didn't get to be updated on the first

1362
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: a half day, so right, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, and

1363
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 1: then on arrival you're faced with this news of this

1364
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 1: like sort of blitzkrieg, all those right of bombing and

1365
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 1: right yes, um, I mean we we saw a little

1366
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 1: bit of it in the morning that day, well when

1367
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:29,719
Speaker 1: we when we started out, um, but it had really

1368
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 1: accelerated and amplified by the time that we arrived. Um.

1369
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 1: And the Ukrainians were absolutely terrified at this because they

1370
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 1: did not realize what happened on such a large scale. Yeah,

1371
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: I think very few people did. Okay, imagine if it's

1372
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 1: in your own country, it's petrifying. Were you there when

1373
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:49,680
Speaker 1: the fighting began in the Chernobyl exclusion zone or were

1374
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 1: you in Poland by then? When did the fighting begin

1375
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 1: in Charnel? I believe about twenty four hours after the

1376
01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 1: fighting began, big period. I was crossing into Poland twenty

1377
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 1: four hours after the fighting began, period, so I was

1378
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,759
Speaker 1: probably crossing into pool and when that fighting began. Okay,

1379
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 1: it's interesting to know, especially how sort of the older

1380
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:13,519
Speaker 1: people or people who have been alive, like the nuclear accidents,

1381
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:15,559
Speaker 1: you know. But I was wondering how they right. I mean,

1382
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 1: I've been talking to plenty of plenty of older people,

1383
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:21,639
Speaker 1: and as I mentioned, the older people especially were resigned

1384
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 1: to this because during the Soviet times, during the Cold War,

1385
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:27,600
Speaker 1: this sort of thing was common, um, And so the

1386
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:29,639
Speaker 1: older people knew what was going on, and the younger

1387
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:33,240
Speaker 1: people were the ones who were more panicking. That's interesting. Yeah,

1388
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: they said they've been raised with a fear of that.

1389
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 1: I suppose, right. And this happened in nine to like

1390
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 1: this is the biggest refugee crisis since nineteen eight nine,

1391
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 1: because in nineteen eight and nine when all the republics

1392
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 1: fell in the Warsaw Pact, so many people turk to

1393
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: the roads, and so the older people were used to

1394
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, um, But as I mentioned, the

1395
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: younger people were not so right. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah,

1396
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 1: since from reactions, I guess, and it's very young people

1397
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:06,160
Speaker 1: obviously unable to understand what's going on. And beyond that,

1398
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 1: there they're leaving their homes, which is said right, and

1399
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 1: especially the little children had no idea what was going on,

1400
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:15,200
Speaker 1: and it was impossible to explain to them. So nobody

1401
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 1: did um and so I can't imagine how terrifying this

1402
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 1: must have been as a child, not knowing why you

1403
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 1: had to walk dozens of hours in the cold carrying

1404
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:27,080
Speaker 1: everything you had. Yeah, it's always the saddest thing to

1405
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:30,760
Speaker 1: see children in those refugee situations when they obviously don't

1406
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:34,720
Speaker 1: know what's going on and didn't do anything wrong and right. Yeah,

1407
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 1: hopefully they're all safe. Hopefully they're in Poland, hopefully they

1408
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 1: can go to safe places. I made several contexts during

1409
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 1: this trip, and as I mentioned, only one of one

1410
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: of them has gone back to me, So I hope

1411
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 1: the others get back to me soon. Yeah, that's tough,

1412
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:51,880
Speaker 1: but you've got the sense of everyone since they weren't

1413
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 1: turned back. They say they just might be sort of

1414
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 1: not in touch because their phone didn't charged or something

1415
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:02,439
Speaker 1: like that. It's either their phones don't aren't charged, or

1416
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 1: if in the men men's case, they were sent to

1417
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 1: the East, or they're too busy trying to arrange accommodations

1418
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 1: or food for themselves or something. I mean, everybody was

1419
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,719
Speaker 1: just very busy trying to survive. So I don't blame

1420
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 1: them if they don't If they don't hop on social media. Yeah, yeah,

1421
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:22,200
Speaker 1: of course, and of course think I did very very

1422
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:24,560
Speaker 1: stressful time for everyone. Did you did you hear of

1423
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 1: anyone who has been sent to the east, either second

1424
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 1: hand or like three people you met people who are

1425
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 1: in the front already. Um, I do not have any

1426
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: contacts of anybody who was sent to the East. From

1427
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 1: what I understand, the Ukrainian Army has a strict uh

1428
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 1: communication social media sort of policy, and so none of

1429
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 1: these soldiers that I met one wanted to talk to me.

1430
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 1: I did not talk to any Ukrainian Army soldiers in

1431
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:52,200
Speaker 1: uniform because they had a very strict policy. They could

1432
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:54,080
Speaker 1: not talk to me, and too I could not get

1433
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 1: their contacts for much of the same reason. Okay, so

1434
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: they didn't want to talk to you, and I didn't

1435
01:16:58,120 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 1: want to talk to anyone. They were just looking for now.

1436
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 1: They were just they were very stern and they did

1437
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: not want to talk to anybody. So I talked to

1438
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:08,760
Speaker 1: zero soldiers in uniforms during this experience. Okay, yeah, so

1439
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 1: where are you now? You've you've gone further west west, right,

1440
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 1: that's right. I took a long bus ride to crack

1441
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:18,880
Speaker 1: Off today. UM, and so I'm crack off Poland Okay,

1442
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 1: how folks deal? Is it different? There being about a

1443
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 1: little bit more distant. I've already talked to a few

1444
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:28,559
Speaker 1: people and uh, well it's a Saturday night. They're going

1445
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 1: out to drink, and they they're saying, well, yeah, it's

1446
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 1: it's terrible that this war is happening two fifty miles

1447
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 1: east of us, but what are we supposed to do

1448
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 1: about it? So they're going out and drinking. So it's

1449
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 1: this very detached sense here and crack out. Not the

1450
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 1: same as it was in Freshmanville. Yeah, interesting to people

1451
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:50,680
Speaker 1: are living their normal life and it's just it's a

1452
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,360
Speaker 1: news item for them. It's they're not worried about any

1453
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 1: potential spin over a fallout, right, Okay, yeah, they're not worried.

1454
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:02,800
Speaker 1: Nice and well you do you plan to stay there?

1455
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: What's what's next to you? So I actually just booked

1456
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 1: a flight uh an hour ago. I'm going to be

1457
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:12,120
Speaker 1: flying back to the States on Marshall first. Okay, great,

1458
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 1: yeah you can. You can come back. And presumably you're

1459
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:18,519
Speaker 1: like your US passport holders, so you could just get

1460
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:22,720
Speaker 1: that's how you got through being conscripted, etcetera. I am not.

1461
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 1: I'm not carrying US passport right now. I'm carrying an

1462
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: Italian passport um because I'm also a citizen of Italy.

1463
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 1: And I was told before I left by some friends

1464
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 1: in the intelligence community that it would look significantly less

1465
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 1: suspicious to carry a U passport than an US passport.

1466
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:40,960
Speaker 1: So I bought the U passport. Nice. Yeah, and then

1467
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 1: you can travel free D three D yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1468
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 1: Do you know if Ukrainian people can crebble once? Because

1469
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,600
Speaker 1: once they're in Poland, can they then move through the

1470
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:55,400
Speaker 1: Shangan's own freely? Ukraine is not a member of the EU,

1471
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,599
Speaker 1: they're not a member of Shangan. I do not believe

1472
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:01,280
Speaker 1: they can move really, right, that's wondering, Like, yeah, they

1473
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:03,640
Speaker 1: would be I don't know how their passports would be

1474
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:05,919
Speaker 1: checked if they're going across some of those land borders

1475
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 1: that I think they I do know that this was

1476
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:11,559
Speaker 1: it was an emergency situation yesterday, and so that's why

1477
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 1: they were just very personally checked. But I'm sure it's

1478
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 1: director usually. Yeah. I wonder what they would be like

1479
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 1: if they tried to exit Poland or if they'll right,

1480
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen to them. No,

1481
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,360
Speaker 1: I don't think. I'm guessing there's been no communication of

1482
01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 1: that that you've seen, either right leg of what they

1483
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:29,799
Speaker 1: should do or how to apply for asylum or anything

1484
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 1: like that. I have talked to a few people. They

1485
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:37,360
Speaker 1: say that they're banking on these countries being empathetic to refugees,

1486
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:39,599
Speaker 1: and I understand. I think that countries will be empathetic

1487
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 1: to refugees. Yeah, yeah, said, do you certainly hope they will.

1488
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 1: So they're just gonna hope that those countries, the ones

1489
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: who don't have a country to go to. You get

1490
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:52,400
Speaker 1: the sense that, yeah, that they'll they'll apply for asylum

1491
01:19:52,439 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 1: wherever they can find a safe place. That's right. Um,

1492
01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:59,080
Speaker 1: And I believe that countries Western European countries that have

1493
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:02,400
Speaker 1: been very vocal of pro Ukraine recently, um, we'll take

1494
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 1: them in. So I think that they'll they'll be safe. Yeah,

1495
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 1: that's good to hear. I know. I've seen estimates of

1496
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:14,240
Speaker 1: up to five million refugees, which would be I mean,

1497
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 1: Germany absorbed a million people from Syria, right, it's not Yeah,

1498
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:19,920
Speaker 1: it's not impossible for West European countries do that at all,

1499
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,679
Speaker 1: but it will, but it would still be a catastrophic crisis,

1500
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 1: the worse than's Maine, and we have to hope it

1501
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 1: doesn't get to that. Do you get the sense of

1502
01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:31,840
Speaker 1: people are still flowing across the border? I know you're

1503
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:34,639
Speaker 1: a bit yes, I think for me, I mean it's

1504
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 1: weird because you want to believe that what you experienced

1505
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 1: and what the people around you've experienced was a one

1506
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 1: time thing, that it was a one time incident, that

1507
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 1: it was one caravan. But this is happening constantly and

1508
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 1: it will continue to happen constantly for weeks. Yeah. And

1509
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 1: the trains and across the border, things like that that

1510
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 1: people can take or is it solely yes. So when

1511
01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 1: when I said that I went to the train station

1512
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 1: and the leaven there were no trains. What was really

1513
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 1: happening is, yes, there were trains, but all the trains

1514
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 1: until March March were booked, So okay, so yeah, people,

1515
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:11,200
Speaker 1: people can't take those trains across that kind of thing. Uh,

1516
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:13,320
Speaker 1: if they tried a book right now, they won't be

1517
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 1: able to find a booking for a while. Okay, so

1518
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 1: they're already booked up. And by the way, here in

1519
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 1: crack out Um, the first two hostels that I went

1520
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 1: to the first two places to say that I went to,

1521
01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: We're all booked up and I asked why and they said,

1522
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:29,800
Speaker 1: Ukrainian refugees. So there are Ukrainian refuges here and crack out. Okay, Yeah,

1523
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:31,280
Speaker 1: people are moving for it. I'm sure a lot of

1524
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 1: people want to get far aways they can. Yeah. So

1525
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:36,760
Speaker 1: people are just constantly moving west right now. Yeah, but

1526
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 1: they have friends of a family that they try to

1527
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:41,759
Speaker 1: get to because Yeah. And I've been hearing the Ukrainian

1528
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 1: language just constantly on my trip, so that's interesting too. Yeah. Yeah,

1529
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 1: thanks for that's a really really interesting inside. Is there

1530
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 1: anything else you think from your experience that people ought

1531
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:59,040
Speaker 1: to hear about? Um? No, I believe I've told you everything.

1532
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 1: I've I've really told the story dozens of times since

1533
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:04,800
Speaker 1: it happened, and UM, I really hope that I hit

1534
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 1: all the all the right notes here. UM if you

1535
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 1: if you had to tell anything to the people who

1536
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:16,599
Speaker 1: were reading or listening to this, Um, Ukraine really needs weapons, yes,

1537
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 1: but they also need humanitarian aid. When I was walking

1538
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 1: all that distance with all those people, there was not

1539
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:25,760
Speaker 1: a single sense of food being provided to anyone, water

1540
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:27,640
Speaker 1: being provided to anyone. There was no chance to go

1541
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 1: to the toilet. There was often no chance to sit down.

1542
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,360
Speaker 1: If we could give even a chance for these people

1543
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:37,240
Speaker 1: to eat something, to drink something, to have a minute

1544
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 1: of solace, um, that would mean the world to them.

1545
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: And so I think that we need to provide humanitarian

1546
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:45,960
Speaker 1: aid to the refugees as soon as possible. And you

1547
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:48,679
Speaker 1: you said you didn't see any organizations you'd suggest people

1548
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 1: donate to that you you didn't see any of that?

1549
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:54,680
Speaker 1: Is there anyone you can know? And I don't know.

1550
01:22:54,760 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 1: I haven't actually done the research and that I probably should, um,

1551
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 1: but I uh, I know that the Welcome Committee in

1552
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:04,280
Speaker 1: Poland were private citizens. They were not part of any

1553
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:08,760
Speaker 1: energy or anything. They were private citizens or welcoming awesome. Yeah,

1554
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:11,000
Speaker 1: I've seen some of them organizing on Facebook, So I'll

1555
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:13,240
Speaker 1: try maybe linked to some of those or something like that.

1556
01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 1: So people going to support and all right, and then

1557
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:19,600
Speaker 1: is there anything like you'd like to to plug? Like

1558
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 1: do you have a you have a Twitter? Right? Is

1559
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 1: anything else you could tell us what your Twitter is? Um?

1560
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: I mean, so the Twitter that I'm using for this,

1561
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:29,280
Speaker 1: which you've probably seen as a temporary one, it was

1562
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 1: not only to cover this crisis. I guess my private

1563
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,920
Speaker 1: Twitter plugged that. Which is you've seen that as well? Probably,

1564
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:39,600
Speaker 1: Um it's just my name. Um, yeah, I guess just

1565
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:43,439
Speaker 1: plugged that. And uh, I mean thank you for everything? No,

1566
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 1: of course. Um it's a man nae marutta with two

1567
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 1: T s right, Yes, m A R O T T

1568
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:52,560
Speaker 1: here great, Okay, we got that. And yeah, thank you

1569
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:54,680
Speaker 1: very much. Thanks for taking the time to talk. I

1570
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:57,400
Speaker 1: appreciate a pretty difficult couple of days to get some rest.

1571
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:00,720
Speaker 1: And if there's anything else in any developments, please do

1572
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 1: let me know. Give mel Tyler thank you all right,

1573
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:13,759
Speaker 1: jeez mate, do you have a meat me? Hey everyone,

1574
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 1: it's Bobby Brown. You might know me as the makeup

1575
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 1: artist beauty expert. You might also know me as the

1576
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:23,960
Speaker 1: founder of Jones Road Beauty. But today I'm here with

1577
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:28,560
Speaker 1: a brand new podcast, The Important Things. On this new podcast,

1578
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 1: I'll be joined by my co host and dear friend,

1579
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 1: international best selling author attorney and Ted Talk along Angelie Kumar.

1580
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:41,320
Speaker 1: Together we want to answer the question how can you

1581
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 1: lead a life of fulfillment? The ongoing pandemic has given

1582
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Speaker 1: us all the opportunity to examine what really matters most

1583
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:52,559
Speaker 1: to us and what brings us true contentment each week

1584
01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:57,439
Speaker 1: through candid conversations with friends, thought leaders, creators and entrepreneurs.

1585
01:24:57,439 --> 01:24:59,639
Speaker 1: Bobby and I are looking for ways we can all

1586
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 1: learn to live more authentic, gratifying lives. You can look

1587
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:07,880
Speaker 1: forward to learning from our amazing guests, including the incomparable

1588
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Speaker 1: Glorious Steinum, entrepreneur and designer Jennifer Fisher, senator Corey Booker,

1589
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Speaker 1: charity founder Christy Turlington Burns, and many many more. So

1590
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:20,639
Speaker 1: join us every other week as we dig deep into

1591
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:25,040
Speaker 1: the stuff that really matters on the important things. Listen

1592
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 1: to the important things on the I Heart Radio app,

1593
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Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. If I

1594
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:35,600
Speaker 1: could be you and you could be me for just

1595
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Speaker 1: one hour, if you could find a way to get

1596
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Speaker 1: inside each other's mind, walcome mile in my shoes, wacome

1597
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Speaker 1: Mile in my shoes Shoes. We've all felt left out,

1598
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Speaker 1: and for some that feeling lasts more than a moment.

1599
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:54,240
Speaker 1: We can change that learn how it Belonging begins with

1600
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:56,799
Speaker 1: us dot org, brought to you by the AD Council.

1601
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:04,479
Speaker 1: Welcome Out in Machines. Hello, I'm Stacy Wilson Hunt, your

1602
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: host for inventing Anna the official podcast from Shonda Rhymes

1603
01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 1: and the creators at Shonda Land. Inventing Anna tells the

1604
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 1: story of a young woman who charmed her way into

1605
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:17,719
Speaker 1: the pocketbooks of New York's elite. Was she gonna take

1606
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:20,160
Speaker 1: off with that twenty million dollars from the banks or

1607
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:22,200
Speaker 1: was she going to pour it into this foundation? You know,

1608
01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 1: people look at Anna and see what they want to see.

1609
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 1: On this podcast, you'll get the i p access to

1610
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 1: the real people who inspire the television series and to

1611
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 1: the actors and creatives like show runner Shawonda Rhimes who

1612
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 1: brought them to life. We were working on the show

1613
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:38,600
Speaker 1: while the trial was going on. I remember doing a

1614
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:44,440
Speaker 1: dramatic reading of Todd's opening statement for the Writer's Room.

1615
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 1: Who is the fake Heiress? Anna Delvi join us as

1616
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 1: we unraveled the stories behind the story. Everything's true until

1617
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 1: it's not, basically, in Anna's world. Listen to Inventing Anna,

1618
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 1: the official podcast, every Wednesday on the I Heart Radio app,

1619
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:09,320
Speaker 1: Apple podcast US, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's

1620
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:12,000
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing. Just take photos of his children

1621
01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:15,720
Speaker 1: walking into the door of their public school. Yeah, send

1622
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:24,600
Speaker 1: him to him with a pro pro pro toutotail account.

1623
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:26,640
Speaker 1: Don't let him know what he did to provoke this,

1624
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:31,439
Speaker 1: just just frighten him. I do like that els is

1625
01:27:31,479 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 1: being recorded. Yeah, that's that's how you do it. With

1626
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:37,559
Speaker 1: the episode has begun, we're including all of that, Sophie,

1627
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:40,920
Speaker 1: all of that Welcome to could happen here the podcast

1628
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 1: where we will take pictures of your children entering a

1629
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 1: public school and send them to you as a threat,

1630
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:47,960
Speaker 1: But we won't tell you what you're we're threatening you

1631
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:52,519
Speaker 1: over because that's I don't know what that is, probably

1632
01:27:52,640 --> 01:28:00,920
Speaker 1: terrorism technically speaking, speaking of child abuse. Great Garrison very

1633
01:28:00,960 --> 01:28:05,479
Speaker 1: proud nailed it. Yeah. Yeah, So we're gonna be We're

1634
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:09,799
Speaker 1: gonna we're doing an episode to talk about the recent

1635
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:12,840
Speaker 1: kind of letter and opinion piece that the governor of

1636
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:17,679
Speaker 1: Texas and the Attorney general wrote relating to trans kids

1637
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 1: in Texas. We're we're also planning like a like a

1638
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:22,800
Speaker 1: more like a week long worth of stuff kind of

1639
01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:25,599
Speaker 1: going into this issue across not not just the States,

1640
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:28,760
Speaker 1: but also like like internationally as well in terms of

1641
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:31,720
Speaker 1: like the growing kind of war on trans people. But

1642
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:34,320
Speaker 1: because this thing happened, we we do want to kind

1643
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:37,120
Speaker 1: of talk about it now as well before we you know,

1644
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time making a week long is

1645
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 1: the worth of of of scripted pieces on it. So anyway,

1646
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about what happened last last weekend

1647
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 1: or last week at time of recording, UM when the

1648
01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:54,679
Speaker 1: Texas Attorney General, Kent Paxton released an opinion piece UM

1649
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:58,160
Speaker 1: on I think it was it was Monday the twenty one,

1650
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 1: declaring gender affirming medical care for transgender children to be

1651
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:06,200
Speaker 1: child abuse UM. In response, the next day, UH, the

1652
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 1: Governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, directed the Texas Department of

1653
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:15,320
Speaker 1: Family and Protective Services UM to investigate these practices UM.

1654
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 1: And then kind of on that following Wednesday, the letter

1655
01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:22,439
Speaker 1: that Grey Gabbott wrote went viral, detailing both the Attorney

1656
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 1: general's kind of opinion that a number of the so

1657
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:28,639
Speaker 1: called quote sex change procedures constitute child abuse under existing

1658
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:33,639
Speaker 1: Texas law UM and directing the Family and Protective Services

1659
01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:37,439
Speaker 1: to protect these to quote unquote protect these kids from abuse.

1660
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:40,439
Speaker 1: And I hear by director agency to conduct a prompt

1661
01:29:40,439 --> 01:29:43,599
Speaker 1: and thrown investigation to any reported instances of these abusive

1662
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 1: procedures UM. And what's really insidious is that, like it's

1663
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:49,720
Speaker 1: not even it's like, of course, like there is not

1664
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:55,240
Speaker 1: gender affirming surgery done on minors anyway, that does not happen. Um.

1665
01:29:55,280 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 1: But the but this letter actually does, um go into

1666
01:30:00,400 --> 01:30:03,560
Speaker 1: it says uh, it's it says a according according to

1667
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:05,760
Speaker 1: the General Attorney General opinion, it has already against the

1668
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:07,880
Speaker 1: law to subject Texas children to a wide variety of

1669
01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:11,640
Speaker 1: elective procedures for gender transitioning, including re assignment surgeries that

1670
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:15,120
Speaker 1: can cause sterilization, removals of otherwise healthy body parts, and

1671
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:20,120
Speaker 1: administration of puberty blocking drugs or doses of testosterone or estrogen.

1672
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: So it's not it is also including HRT, including puberty blockers,

1673
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:26,639
Speaker 1: which again we already give to sis gender children all

1674
01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 1: the time. Um. Puberty blockers are given to kids who

1675
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:33,800
Speaker 1: have early onset puberty who are assists. Um, but it's

1676
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 1: now including puberty blockers inside like constituting that in its

1677
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:41,280
Speaker 1: in and of itself as child abuse, which is an

1678
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 1: escalation of things that we've seen before. Um. Yeah. And

1679
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,919
Speaker 1: then it's also talking about how Texas law imposes reporting

1680
01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:55,120
Speaker 1: requirements upon all licensed professionals, um, including doctors and nurses, teachers, therapists,

1681
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 1: and provides you know, criminal penalties for failure to report things.

1682
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:01,280
Speaker 1: So like it is that that was that was that

1683
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:03,680
Speaker 1: was the that was the main part of the of

1684
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 1: the letter, that one viral detailing the different different ways

1685
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:12,600
Speaker 1: that they're trying to harass, intimidate, and um introduce possible

1686
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:17,360
Speaker 1: legal legal repercussions to parents and um, you know, caregivers

1687
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:26,520
Speaker 1: who support transgender youth inside the state of Texas. Oh yeah,

1688
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:29,720
Speaker 1: um it is. It is like the perfect example of

1689
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:32,599
Speaker 1: the thing these people always do when they make laws

1690
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:36,880
Speaker 1: based on their bigotry, which is like reflexively make a

1691
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:39,679
Speaker 1: law based on whatever is like the fucking Twitter talking

1692
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 1: point that they've been yelling about, and then don't consider

1693
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:44,559
Speaker 1: all of the different things that it's going to do

1694
01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:46,240
Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with the group of people

1695
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:49,680
Speaker 1: they're trying to hurt. And lots of cases, this is

1696
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:52,000
Speaker 1: just gonna it's it's not even gonna it's it's gonna

1697
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:54,240
Speaker 1: impact a lot of like queer people in general, right

1698
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 1: because it's it's in terms of like reporting things that

1699
01:31:56,840 --> 01:31:59,320
Speaker 1: seem outside the mainstream, so not even necessarily trans not

1700
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 1: even necessarily and gender people, not even necessarily queer people

1701
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:03,680
Speaker 1: as well, Like there's a lot of like you know,

1702
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:05,840
Speaker 1: I I and if definitely when I was growing if

1703
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:07,800
Speaker 1: there was a lot of like cis girls who enjoy

1704
01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:11,680
Speaker 1: dressing more like butcher tomboy. Um. You know, there's a

1705
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:13,360
Speaker 1: there's a and there's a whole bunch of stuff that

1706
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:17,080
Speaker 1: will just affect like kids in general. Um, with all

1707
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:20,040
Speaker 1: of this reporting and all of this like and making

1708
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:25,360
Speaker 1: making these like procedures and like hormone treatments like you know,

1709
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:28,000
Speaker 1: to trying to make them seem like they're legal. Because

1710
01:32:28,040 --> 01:32:30,120
Speaker 1: that because again, like the actual Texas law has has

1711
01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:33,360
Speaker 1: not changed. It is it is the it is. This

1712
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:37,920
Speaker 1: is an opinion piece investing directing the child Protective Services

1713
01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:40,640
Speaker 1: to investigate these things. So the actual law in the

1714
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:42,920
Speaker 1: books doesn't changed. What it has done is caused a

1715
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:46,640
Speaker 1: whole bunch of like possible legal danger um and a

1716
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:48,599
Speaker 1: massive headache and just a whole bunch of like legal

1717
01:32:48,600 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 1: harassment against parents and kids. And that that's what it's

1718
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:53,799
Speaker 1: gonna that's what's gonna result in because it's it's unclear

1719
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 1: what this what the governor's directive is going to actually

1720
01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:59,439
Speaker 1: practically look like. Um, because in the in the in

1721
01:32:59,479 --> 01:33:02,479
Speaker 1: a tweet on last Tuesday, he said that he's directing

1722
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,920
Speaker 1: the Child Protective Services to enforce this ruling and investigate

1723
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:10,080
Speaker 1: and refer for prosecution for instances of miners receiving affirming

1724
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:14,120
Speaker 1: care UM and then to the Texas Protective Services told

1725
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:16,719
Speaker 1: Time magazine on Wednesday that it was going to comply

1726
01:33:16,800 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 1: with the Governor's directive UM, but in terms of like

1727
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:23,160
Speaker 1: directing them for prosecution, there has been like five Texas

1728
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:26,679
Speaker 1: District Attorneys UM, including the d as of Dallas County

1729
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 1: and Houston's Travis County. They issued a statement to the

1730
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:33,599
Speaker 1: day after UH condemning the directive UM and saying that

1731
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:36,759
Speaker 1: they plan to enforce the Constitution with their quote unquote

1732
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:38,880
Speaker 1: that's what they said, and that they are quote deeply

1733
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:42,800
Speaker 1: disturbed by Governor Abbots and Attorney General Paxton's cruel directives

1734
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:46,840
Speaker 1: treating transgender children's access to life saving gender firm and

1735
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:49,760
Speaker 1: care as child abuse. We will not irrationally and a

1736
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:53,439
Speaker 1: jujustifiably interfere with medical decisions made between children, their parents,

1737
01:33:53,439 --> 01:33:56,840
Speaker 1: and her medical physicians to ensure the safety of transgender youth,

1738
01:33:57,360 --> 01:33:59,720
Speaker 1: adding that we will not allow the Governor or turned

1739
01:33:59,760 --> 01:34:03,519
Speaker 1: General to disregard Texas children's lives in order to score

1740
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:06,200
Speaker 1: political points. So in terms of you know, there's many

1741
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:08,000
Speaker 1: certain parts of the certain parts of the state where

1742
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:11,559
Speaker 1: even even if protective services does investigate reports of this,

1743
01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:14,160
Speaker 1: they're not gonna get prosecuted. But there will be other

1744
01:34:14,160 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 1: parts of the state where these they probably will like

1745
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:18,439
Speaker 1: and because like it's it's because because it is just

1746
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 1: because it is just an interpretation of the law, you

1747
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,559
Speaker 1: can still you can still get lots of legal trouble

1748
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 1: and it's going to be up to juries and other

1749
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 1: people to decide on what interpretation of the law is

1750
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:32,639
Speaker 1: going to be enforced and enacted upon. Um, So you're

1751
01:34:32,640 --> 01:34:34,200
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of people being like, oh, no, it's

1752
01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:36,519
Speaker 1: actually okay because the law is not changing, it's just

1753
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:39,240
Speaker 1: the interpretation. They're like, well, no, it actually is a

1754
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:41,880
Speaker 1: big problem. Like it's like and it's not even it's

1755
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:45,720
Speaker 1: just the overall like it's saying the things that have

1756
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:49,080
Speaker 1: been gone unsaid for a long time, like it's it's

1757
01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 1: it's it's making the things that everyone kind of assumed

1758
01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 1: or was kind of the unsaid bigotry, putting it into

1759
01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:57,479
Speaker 1: writing and making it concrete. And it's like the overall

1760
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:00,880
Speaker 1: escalation of this thing which is which is deep, deep,

1761
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:03,799
Speaker 1: deeply concerning I mean, it's it's the thing that happened

1762
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,679
Speaker 1: with like COVID restrictions with like masks and stuff, where

1763
01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:10,880
Speaker 1: you've got the cities and stuff where you have kind

1764
01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:13,479
Speaker 1: of more rational leadership are saying like we're not we're

1765
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 1: not paying attention to this directed from the governor. We're

1766
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:17,840
Speaker 1: going to keep having letting people mask or we're not

1767
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 1: going to let you, you know, go after businesses that

1768
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:26,599
Speaker 1: require masks. But with the added dimension of like the

1769
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:29,879
Speaker 1: rather than it being sort of targeting businesses and schools,

1770
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:33,200
Speaker 1: it's it's targeting individuals, and it's allowing individuals to target

1771
01:35:33,200 --> 01:35:36,200
Speaker 1: other individuals, like the the Texas abortion law exactly. And

1772
01:35:36,360 --> 01:35:38,920
Speaker 1: the primary purpose of this is going to be too

1773
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 1: basically gradually erode the areas in which which trans kids

1774
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:48,000
Speaker 1: can can live in Texas. Like yep, they'll be able

1775
01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:49,679
Speaker 1: to live in some of the cities for a while

1776
01:35:49,720 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 1: at least, well and even even in the cities. Right,

1777
01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:54,759
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, okay, so maybe the the A doesn't prosecute,

1778
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:57,320
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that CPS can't just can't investigate you.

1779
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 1: And like that's that's gonna be traumatic a lot of

1780
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:06,559
Speaker 1: legal harassment because like DFPS cannot remove any child from

1781
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 1: their parents or guardians without a court order, and no

1782
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:12,559
Speaker 1: court in Texas or anywhere in the country has yet

1783
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:15,400
Speaker 1: found gender affirm and care to be considered child abuse.

1784
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:18,519
Speaker 1: So it has not happened yet, but they sure wanted

1785
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:20,559
Speaker 1: to happen, and this is these are the next These

1786
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:23,280
Speaker 1: are the next steps that can make it happen. Right,

1787
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:26,320
Speaker 1: They are trying to get there um with this like

1788
01:36:26,439 --> 01:36:29,559
Speaker 1: incremental like these incremental things, you know, starting off with

1789
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:32,519
Speaker 1: like legal interpretations of the law. Eventually they would want

1790
01:36:32,640 --> 01:36:35,200
Speaker 1: to change the law just to reflect this opinion, right,

1791
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:38,120
Speaker 1: Like they want this to happen. They're just they're trying

1792
01:36:38,160 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: to slowly, slowly, slowly get at it um and it

1793
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:46,719
Speaker 1: needs to be pushed back upon because yeah, any any

1794
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:48,519
Speaker 1: slow incremental thing that they're going to try to do

1795
01:36:48,640 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: to make it basically be impossible to live as trans

1796
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:54,519
Speaker 1: in Texas, the UH and lots of other states as well.

1797
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:56,280
Speaker 1: It's not just it's not just Texas. There's things like

1798
01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:59,759
Speaker 1: this happening across all of the United States, basically, especially

1799
01:37:00,200 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 1: especially you know, por portions, portions of the South. Um.

1800
01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:08,120
Speaker 1: And it's yeah, it does play into this kind of

1801
01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 1: overall in the past five years. You know, once they

1802
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:13,960
Speaker 1: lost the gay marriage issue, they're like, Okay, the next

1803
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:17,040
Speaker 1: line of defense for these people is making it be

1804
01:37:17,080 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 1: impossible to be trans. So it is that it's like

1805
01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:21,519
Speaker 1: the new that's the new thing they're gonna be really

1806
01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:24,200
Speaker 1: focusing on. And it's we've seen so many, so many

1807
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 1: new bills against against like being trans over the course

1808
01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: of the past five years. Again, it's it is more

1809
01:37:30,280 --> 01:37:33,479
Speaker 1: so putting into writing the things that have been always

1810
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:36,840
Speaker 1: kind of unconscious bigotry or even concious bigotry, but it's

1811
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:41,280
Speaker 1: putting that into actual stone and making it like cemented. Um.

1812
01:37:41,439 --> 01:37:43,080
Speaker 1: You know, just at just at the start of this year,

1813
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:46,200
Speaker 1: there was new restrictions put in place protectas is transgender

1814
01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:49,519
Speaker 1: student athletes playing on K through twelve school sports teams

1815
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:53,439
Speaker 1: UM that that went into effect on January eighteenth. It

1816
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 1: was it was a house built twenty five authored by

1817
01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:02,720
Speaker 1: Representative Valerie Swanson. UM requires student athletes to complete in

1818
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:06,360
Speaker 1: interslastic competition to play on sports teams that correspond with

1819
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:08,840
Speaker 1: the sex listed on their birth certificate at or near

1820
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:11,679
Speaker 1: their time of birth, which means that the legislation went

1821
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:15,280
Speaker 1: further than the previous rules from the University of Slastic

1822
01:38:15,360 --> 01:38:18,439
Speaker 1: League UM, which governs the school sports in Texas, in

1823
01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 1: which the students gender is determined by their birth certificate,

1824
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 1: but that that can also be legally modified, like you

1825
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:28,160
Speaker 1: can change these sex assigned at birth only on your

1826
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:30,920
Speaker 1: birth certificate. The new ruling is that it needs to

1827
01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:32,840
Speaker 1: be it needs to match the one that it was

1828
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:35,200
Speaker 1: at or near your time of birth. So again, like

1829
01:38:35,200 --> 01:38:37,799
Speaker 1: they're finding all these little, these little small like things

1830
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 1: to like pry um that just makes things overall be

1831
01:38:43,400 --> 01:38:45,439
Speaker 1: harder to live in UM. And at this point, like

1832
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:48,000
Speaker 1: ten ten other states have put in very similar laws

1833
01:38:48,040 --> 01:38:52,519
Speaker 1: relating to like relating to to school sports and like

1834
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:57,160
Speaker 1: bathroom bills, and yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's the

1835
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:00,560
Speaker 1: it's the same thing that authoritarians always do, which is

1836
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:03,559
Speaker 1: they're just kind of edging further and further and and

1837
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:07,479
Speaker 1: continuing to proceed as they do not meet resistance, and

1838
01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:10,760
Speaker 1: the goal is to make it illegal and impossible to

1839
01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:13,639
Speaker 1: exist as a transgender person in society. You know. Part

1840
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:15,960
Speaker 1: of what they're doing with with the wording of how

1841
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:18,599
Speaker 1: this change in Texas has been announced as they're trying

1842
01:39:18,600 --> 01:39:22,960
Speaker 1: to frame being trans is a contagion that threatens children.

1843
01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:27,320
Speaker 1: And step one of that under the is going proceeding

1844
01:39:27,360 --> 01:39:29,639
Speaker 1: under the ages if we are protecting children by making

1845
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:32,759
Speaker 1: these kind of surgeries and stuff illegal. But the steps

1846
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:36,479
Speaker 1: beyond that are eventually banning and restricting the ability of

1847
01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:39,080
Speaker 1: trans people to be around children and eventually be in

1848
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:41,360
Speaker 1: civil society at all because they're a threat to children.

1849
01:39:41,360 --> 01:39:44,880
Speaker 1: That that that's the logical procession of the arguments that

1850
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 1: they're making, and I think they're proceeding in a fairly

1851
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 1: um um logical way in terms of achieving that as

1852
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:57,680
Speaker 1: a goal, and they're not going to stop until they

1853
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:03,320
Speaker 1: are stopped by probably force, if anything stops it. At

1854
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:05,960
Speaker 1: this point, that's that's what it's going to have to be,

1855
01:40:05,960 --> 01:40:10,439
Speaker 1: because the local government has realized that that's how you

1856
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:14,120
Speaker 1: get elected because you can't you can fix the power

1857
01:40:14,160 --> 01:40:16,479
Speaker 1: grid in Texas, you can't provide people with anything that

1858
01:40:16,560 --> 01:40:18,759
Speaker 1: makes their lives easier, but you can hurt trans people.

1859
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:23,479
Speaker 1: Um and Republicans are are well, are always down with that.

1860
01:40:23,640 --> 01:40:25,519
Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's it's this thing fascists do where

1861
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 1: they introduce a false crisis. They introduce a false crisis

1862
01:40:28,080 --> 01:40:32,600
Speaker 1: that they can actually take steps to to you know, UM,

1863
01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 1: make changes about but all that ends up doing is

1864
01:40:35,439 --> 01:40:37,360
Speaker 1: hurting more of the population. It doesn't actually solve any

1865
01:40:37,400 --> 01:40:40,439
Speaker 1: issue that actually hurts people. UM. It's it's one of

1866
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:42,360
Speaker 1: the core things in the fascist playbook. And I think

1867
01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:44,600
Speaker 1: it's even in the States where there aren't just like

1868
01:40:44,680 --> 01:40:48,760
Speaker 1: blanket bands on kids being able to participate in sports teams. Um,

1869
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:51,799
Speaker 1: there's other horrifying things happening. UM. Like in the beginning

1870
01:40:51,800 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 1: of February, it came out that the Utah Republicans propose

1871
01:40:56,360 --> 01:41:02,280
Speaker 1: a Commission to analyze trans its bodies. Um. You're talking

1872
01:41:02,280 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 1: about the first of its kind anti transit sports bill

1873
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:08,160
Speaker 1: that would form a commission to determine a student athletes

1874
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: eligibility on a case by case basis. The commission would

1875
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:14,559
Speaker 1: have authority to establish a baseline range for various attributes

1876
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 1: including height, weight, body mass, wingspan, hiptoony ratio another physical

1877
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:22,240
Speaker 1: characteristics affected by puberty bearing trans athletes UM who do

1878
01:41:22,280 --> 01:41:24,920
Speaker 1: not fall within the established limits to from from participating

1879
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:29,679
Speaker 1: engendered sports. UM. And yeah, asking like a government appointed

1880
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:32,920
Speaker 1: panel to analyze the bodies of transminers. It does sound

1881
01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:35,479
Speaker 1: like a giant recipe for disaster. UM. And there is

1882
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:39,000
Speaker 1: some even more like horrifying details. The bill would render

1883
01:41:39,400 --> 01:41:43,639
Speaker 1: the commission quote immune from suit like lawsuits with respect

1884
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:46,519
Speaker 1: to all acts done and actions taken in good faith

1885
01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 1: in carrying out their purposes. Uh so, yeah, you can't

1886
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:54,160
Speaker 1: sue anybody for what happens under the guise of this commission.

1887
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:58,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, they're just gonna be investigating trans youth bodies

1888
01:41:58,400 --> 01:42:02,160
Speaker 1: and yep, you can't. There's no law suits allowed. That's great.

1889
01:42:02,920 --> 01:42:04,840
Speaker 1: Let's let's let's let's get let's give the let's give

1890
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:09,280
Speaker 1: the trans child abuse. Uh phrenology panel just immunity from

1891
01:42:09,320 --> 01:42:16,400
Speaker 1: lawsuits like, yeah, qualified extend qualified immunity to citizens hurting

1892
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:21,840
Speaker 1: the group of people that, uh, we don't think are human, Like,

1893
01:42:22,280 --> 01:42:24,320
Speaker 1: this isn't the only way place we're going to see

1894
01:42:24,320 --> 01:42:27,160
Speaker 1: that logic extended towards you're already seeing in places like

1895
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:29,679
Speaker 1: Louisiana with these bills to make it legal to kill

1896
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:34,240
Speaker 1: protesters if you feel threatened. Um, like, it's it's the

1897
01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:37,160
Speaker 1: same playbook, and it's going to be the same playbook

1898
01:42:37,200 --> 01:42:40,920
Speaker 1: because there's no way to fight it without some sort

1899
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:45,160
Speaker 1: of force. You can't vote these people away. The courts

1900
01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:49,480
Speaker 1: are packed for the time being. There's there's only there's

1901
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:52,280
Speaker 1: not a solution that isn't some kind of force. Now

1902
01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:54,519
Speaker 1: we can discuss is it like the force of getting

1903
01:42:54,560 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 1: the FEDS to intervene or whatever, But like there's no,

1904
01:42:57,560 --> 01:43:02,040
Speaker 1: there's no solution that is just like democratic I mean,

1905
01:43:02,120 --> 01:43:05,799
Speaker 1: And like Biden's office made a statement on this recent

1906
01:43:05,880 --> 01:43:11,120
Speaker 1: Texas like law opinion interpretation thing, and they're like, yeah,

1907
01:43:11,400 --> 01:43:13,760
Speaker 1: this seem was bad anyway, good luck? Could you like yeah,

1908
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:18,040
Speaker 1: oh cool, Yeah, it's that that meme of like the

1909
01:43:18,080 --> 01:43:24,000
Speaker 1: person drowning with their hand out and they high, yeah,

1910
01:43:24,040 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 1: that's exactly what's happening. And I think the situation is

1911
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:29,160
Speaker 1: like on is he's worse than that too? Because you know,

1912
01:43:29,200 --> 01:43:31,320
Speaker 1: in the past couple of weeks, what's something we started

1913
01:43:31,320 --> 01:43:34,240
Speaker 1: seeing as we started seeing democratic journals and democratic strategists

1914
01:43:34,680 --> 01:43:36,759
Speaker 1: openly talking about how we need to make as sessions

1915
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:38,280
Speaker 1: to the right and the culture war, It's like, okay, well,

1916
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:40,080
Speaker 1: what does that mean is like, yeah, throw tro trans

1917
01:43:40,120 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 1: concert the bus, right, Yeah, because they can't vote, they're

1918
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:47,320
Speaker 1: already freaks, So yeah, they're the easiest person to pick

1919
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:51,320
Speaker 1: away at the rights for um. And because overall, just

1920
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:53,040
Speaker 1: in the past year alone, more than a hundred bills

1921
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 1: designed to restrict the rights of transgender people have been

1922
01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 1: introduced at least three three states. Um, it's a it's

1923
01:43:58,840 --> 01:44:02,280
Speaker 1: a it's a record breaking year for anti trans legislation

1924
01:44:02,280 --> 01:44:05,200
Speaker 1: that's been that has been introduced. UM. In Arkansas to

1925
01:44:05,200 --> 01:44:09,360
Speaker 1: state legislator recently banned gender affirming treatment for miners, um,

1926
01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:14,120
Speaker 1: including hormotherapy like like puerty blockers and similar treatments. Again,

1927
01:44:14,160 --> 01:44:16,519
Speaker 1: this is the thing that like that could not happen

1928
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 1: for a long time anyway, just because like culturally and

1929
01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:21,920
Speaker 1: medically doctors would never do that. But now at the

1930
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:24,320
Speaker 1: point where that started starting to change, it is this

1931
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 1: it is this like um reactive, reactive effect that people

1932
01:44:28,840 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: are doing. And like now now that now that these

1933
01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:33,200
Speaker 1: cogs are turning, people are putting the massive brakes on

1934
01:44:33,240 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 1: it and putting the thing that used to be just

1935
01:44:35,320 --> 01:44:38,759
Speaker 1: unsaid now into actual legal writing. So now this actually

1936
01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:41,240
Speaker 1: is like just not allowed as opposed to it's just

1937
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:44,559
Speaker 1: not happening because doctors were assholes. So yeah, in Arkansas,

1938
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:48,439
Speaker 1: you can't even receive hormone treatment or beauty blockers. The

1939
01:44:48,439 --> 01:44:53,599
Speaker 1: bill was called the Save Adolescence from Experimentation Act. Yeah,

1940
01:44:53,720 --> 01:44:56,400
Speaker 1: so referring to medical treatment of one of affirming one's

1941
01:44:56,439 --> 01:44:59,439
Speaker 1: gender identity as experimentation. Um, which is not great. I

1942
01:44:59,439 --> 01:45:02,320
Speaker 1: mean that is that is how I view it for

1943
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:05,040
Speaker 1: myself because I like being a freak. But as an

1944
01:45:05,040 --> 01:45:07,720
Speaker 1: overall trend, that is that is horrible. Like, that is

1945
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:09,920
Speaker 1: a horrible way to to phrase this type of thing

1946
01:45:10,200 --> 01:45:13,439
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, especially the people who who

1947
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:16,680
Speaker 1: know specifically what gender they want to be and and

1948
01:45:16,840 --> 01:45:19,800
Speaker 1: are like that is that affects them so differently. I

1949
01:45:19,800 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 1: mean I'm I'm lucky enough just to be more gender

1950
01:45:23,240 --> 01:45:26,960
Speaker 1: queer ish um. And but yeah, it's all of these

1951
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:30,040
Speaker 1: bills are gonna affect so many people in different ways,

1952
01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:35,040
Speaker 1: and it's it's real bad. Like shortly after the Arkansas

1953
01:45:35,120 --> 01:45:39,679
Speaker 1: bill prohibiting transforming medical practices was signed into law last April,

1954
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:44,240
Speaker 1: reports of suicide attempts among trans youth in the state. Uh,

1955
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:49,960
Speaker 1: we're going up. Um. And the doctor Michelle Hutchinson, who

1956
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:52,240
Speaker 1: runs the largest provider of hormo therapy in the state,

1957
01:45:52,439 --> 01:45:55,519
Speaker 1: called the ap that just just into her office alone

1958
01:45:55,600 --> 01:45:58,719
Speaker 1: during April she saw an uptick in suicide attempts from

1959
01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:03,040
Speaker 1: from from Trent youth and this is this is it's

1960
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:05,759
Speaker 1: gonna keep happening, and like there is you can't trust

1961
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:08,880
Speaker 1: a lot to stop it. Like the Arkansas Governor um

1962
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:13,040
Speaker 1: uh Issa Hutchinson, a Republican, did veto this bill, citing

1963
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:16,280
Speaker 1: potentially dangerous consequences for trans youth and telling it that

1964
01:46:16,520 --> 01:46:19,559
Speaker 1: telling reporters that it was a vast government overreach and

1965
01:46:19,680 --> 01:46:22,439
Speaker 1: a byproduct of the culture war in America, and her

1966
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:25,280
Speaker 1: veto was vetoed by the state legislator. So like it's

1967
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:28,559
Speaker 1: gonna be a looping, endless problem of legal issues. So

1968
01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:31,639
Speaker 1: it's there's there's needs to be other things. Like I've

1969
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:34,240
Speaker 1: been on Twitter the past week just watch looking at

1970
01:46:34,240 --> 01:46:37,280
Speaker 1: all the go fund means by parents of trans kids

1971
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:39,719
Speaker 1: in Texas who are trying to move out of state

1972
01:46:39,840 --> 01:46:43,439
Speaker 1: so that their kid can receive like hormone treatment and

1973
01:46:43,479 --> 01:46:45,920
Speaker 1: just like be allowed to be a person without being

1974
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:50,840
Speaker 1: harassed by protective services and teachers and the school system.

1975
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:53,479
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's it's horrifying, like watching all these

1976
01:46:53,479 --> 01:46:56,200
Speaker 1: people like asking for help so they can move out

1977
01:46:56,240 --> 01:46:57,960
Speaker 1: of state so that they can let their kid be

1978
01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 1: just a kid. Um, And it's it is, it is

1979
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:06,280
Speaker 1: really rough, um And a big part of why, part

1980
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:09,040
Speaker 1: of why it's so horrifying is that, Like, obviously, if

1981
01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:11,400
Speaker 1: you're in that situation, you can get your kid out there,

1982
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 1: of course, but it also means the more people who

1983
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: move out of places like that, the less resources there

1984
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:21,360
Speaker 1: will be in the future for kids whose parents can't

1985
01:47:21,400 --> 01:47:23,400
Speaker 1: get them out, you know, and the less support there

1986
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,360
Speaker 1: will be, the less and like there is just there

1987
01:47:26,479 --> 01:47:28,880
Speaker 1: is no real escape from it, like you cannot get

1988
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:32,439
Speaker 1: fully away. It is that you cannot ever fully escape

1989
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 1: that type of fascist um thought and creep within the state.

1990
01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:40,439
Speaker 1: Letis later and specifically around you know how it's going

1991
01:47:40,479 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 1: to affect different different classes of minorities. UM, I will

1992
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:47,559
Speaker 1: dract people if you want to kind of learn more

1993
01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:50,120
Speaker 1: about this sort of thing, and if you, you know,

1994
01:47:50,479 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 1: can you can find some some stuff around there. There's

1995
01:47:53,240 --> 01:47:56,760
Speaker 1: an organization Texas called TENT, which is the UH I

1996
01:47:56,840 --> 01:47:59,080
Speaker 1: just want to make sure I say it right. Oh no,

1997
01:47:59,400 --> 01:48:05,240
Speaker 1: it's the EXIS Educational Network, the trans Educational Network of Texas. UM.

1998
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:07,120
Speaker 1: It's one one of those, but it is it is a.

1999
01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:08,559
Speaker 1: It is a It has a whole bunch of like

2000
01:48:08,560 --> 01:48:12,000
Speaker 1: mental health resources, guides for trans youth in Texas, for

2001
01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:16,000
Speaker 1: how to make things slightly less shitty, um, and yeah,

2002
01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:18,240
Speaker 1: they do. They do some advocacy work in Texas. There's

2003
01:48:18,280 --> 01:48:21,439
Speaker 1: also a Quality Texas which is another organization that does

2004
01:48:21,520 --> 01:48:26,000
Speaker 1: that does some assistance for transgender people like in schools.

2005
01:48:26,680 --> 01:48:28,920
Speaker 1: Um and just you know, try again trying to make

2006
01:48:29,040 --> 01:48:33,800
Speaker 1: life slightly less slightly less shitty. Um, yeah, I kind

2007
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:36,320
Speaker 1: of the last the last thing I wrote is the

2008
01:48:37,040 --> 01:48:40,600
Speaker 1: is just fix your hearts or die, which is the

2009
01:48:40,800 --> 01:48:44,000
Speaker 1: kind of overall overall message that you can really only

2010
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:46,200
Speaker 1: give to people who want to do this type of thing,

2011
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:49,920
Speaker 1: is that, Yeah, there's really no arguing with them. Um,

2012
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:52,559
Speaker 1: you have to either they need to fix their hearts

2013
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:55,920
Speaker 1: or not be around anymore. Like they're they're just like

2014
01:48:56,080 --> 01:48:59,280
Speaker 1: whether that be like just secluded to your part of society,

2015
01:48:59,360 --> 01:49:02,280
Speaker 1: but it's think it it needs to be actually like

2016
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:04,439
Speaker 1: resisted upon because these people are never going to back

2017
01:49:04,479 --> 01:49:06,799
Speaker 1: down on their own. The other part of the problem

2018
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:11,439
Speaker 1: here again is just with how you know, like this

2019
01:49:11,600 --> 01:49:13,160
Speaker 1: this is sort of kind of this is an inherent

2020
01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:16,680
Speaker 1: problem that you have with democracies, right with with democracies

2021
01:49:16,680 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 1: and civil rights, where it's yeah, you have a group

2022
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:21,800
Speaker 1: people who aren't extremely small minority, and you know, and

2023
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:23,880
Speaker 1: you know and and and This gets compounded by the

2024
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,360
Speaker 1: fact that you're dealing with extremely well minority of people,

2025
01:49:26,920 --> 01:49:31,080
Speaker 1: and you know, you're already dealing with like the you know,

2026
01:49:31,120 --> 01:49:34,000
Speaker 1: the thing that is called democracy, right is only participated

2027
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:36,439
Speaker 1: in by an extremely small number of people, especially when

2028
01:49:37,000 --> 01:49:38,519
Speaker 1: you get you know, especially when you get down to

2029
01:49:38,640 --> 01:49:40,800
Speaker 1: like the the state level, of the local level, right,

2030
01:49:40,840 --> 01:49:42,760
Speaker 1: like very few people are actually voting in these things.

2031
01:49:42,760 --> 01:49:44,800
Speaker 1: That people who are voting in these things like want

2032
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:48,759
Speaker 1: trans people to die, and so you know, you you

2033
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 1: you you need, you need some kind of other solution

2034
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:55,559
Speaker 1: to actually secure to secure civil rights, because there's just

2035
01:49:55,640 --> 01:49:57,800
Speaker 1: there's there literally are not enough trans people, and there

2036
01:49:57,840 --> 01:50:00,400
Speaker 1: are not enough people who support them and care enough

2037
01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:02,720
Speaker 1: to do it and also are in these areas to

2038
01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:07,080
Speaker 1: prevent this through just the normal like vote blue. I mean,

2039
01:50:07,200 --> 01:50:09,360
Speaker 1: like I keep seeing this with with Texas. Everyone keeps

2040
01:50:09,360 --> 01:50:10,920
Speaker 1: saying it's like, well, okay, we just gotta vote blue.

2041
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:13,439
Speaker 1: And it's like people have been like people have been

2042
01:50:13,439 --> 01:50:15,880
Speaker 1: saying this about stuff in Texas for as long as

2043
01:50:15,880 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 1: I've been alive. It has never happened. Ever, Like it

2044
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:22,000
Speaker 1: hasn't my entire life. They keep saying, is it keeps

2045
01:50:22,000 --> 01:50:26,000
Speaker 1: not happening? And kids keep dying, and yeah, there has

2046
01:50:26,080 --> 01:50:28,880
Speaker 1: there has to be something else because yeah, Texas is

2047
01:50:28,920 --> 01:50:33,240
Speaker 1: going to come back here. Texas has been labor laboriously

2048
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:36,479
Speaker 1: constructed as a political entity to sty me all of

2049
01:50:36,520 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 1: your liberal dreams of of uh it going purple um

2050
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:45,240
Speaker 1: and and it will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

2051
01:50:45,439 --> 01:50:49,400
Speaker 1: Like you cannot. This is not a voting issue. This

2052
01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:54,479
Speaker 1: is a I mean, like I said, some kind of

2053
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:56,320
Speaker 1: force is going to have to be used to oppose

2054
01:50:56,400 --> 01:50:58,960
Speaker 1: these people. They're not they're not there. They wouldn't listen

2055
01:50:58,960 --> 01:51:01,960
Speaker 1: if you voted amount you know, and and they do

2056
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:04,320
Speaker 1: like they themselves do for is you look at all

2057
01:51:04,320 --> 01:51:07,320
Speaker 1: the stuff we've been doing. Yeah, and and and even

2058
01:51:07,320 --> 01:51:09,599
Speaker 1: like regular people like this whole thing of like yes,

2059
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:12,040
Speaker 1: you should like report to your neighbors that you see

2060
01:51:12,240 --> 01:51:14,040
Speaker 1: if you if you see a kid who doesn't look

2061
01:51:14,040 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 1: like a regular normal borings this child, then yeah you

2062
01:51:17,960 --> 01:51:20,479
Speaker 1: should report them. But you should go harass everyone who

2063
01:51:20,479 --> 01:51:22,599
Speaker 1: works in your school board so that they ban all

2064
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:26,160
Speaker 1: books referencing anything related to being queer. It's like they

2065
01:51:26,720 --> 01:51:31,639
Speaker 1: do take steps to actually hurt other individuals. Um, and

2066
01:51:32,040 --> 01:51:34,840
Speaker 1: they can do it through these means that you know,

2067
01:51:35,439 --> 01:51:38,000
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have to always punch you in the face,

2068
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:41,559
Speaker 1: but they can sure direct the state to send agents

2069
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:44,800
Speaker 1: to your house to to like to intimidate, harass you

2070
01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:48,120
Speaker 1: and threaten to threaten to take away your children. Um

2071
01:51:48,240 --> 01:51:50,040
Speaker 1: or they can you know, if you're a therapist or

2072
01:51:50,040 --> 01:51:52,519
Speaker 1: a teacher, you can be fired or put in jail

2073
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:57,800
Speaker 1: for failing to report, you know, kids who don't subscribe

2074
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:02,920
Speaker 1: to their Christian supremacist ideas of like traditional general rules. Um.

2075
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:05,320
Speaker 1: Because again it's it's it's not even all it's like again,

2076
01:52:05,360 --> 01:52:08,760
Speaker 1: there's not tons of trends people in general. Usually it's

2077
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:10,840
Speaker 1: like this is just gonna affect a lot of CIS

2078
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:14,160
Speaker 1: kids as well, who maybe don't want to who don't,

2079
01:52:14,240 --> 01:52:16,840
Speaker 1: who don't who don't who who just want to dress cool?

2080
01:52:17,160 --> 01:52:19,400
Speaker 1: Like it's like it's it's it's it doesn't even just

2081
01:52:19,560 --> 01:52:23,360
Speaker 1: like it is is it does affect everybody. Um, So

2082
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:25,839
Speaker 1: it is it's a it's a it's a it's a

2083
01:52:25,840 --> 01:52:28,240
Speaker 1: horrible it's a horrible thing that is not even like

2084
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:30,720
Speaker 1: there's no escape from it, and it will affect you

2085
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:33,720
Speaker 1: whether or not your trends or not. And I think

2086
01:52:33,720 --> 01:52:36,080
Speaker 1: it's important also to talk about the manager reporting stuff,

2087
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:40,719
Speaker 1: because even manager reporting in general, like even like I've

2088
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:43,320
Speaker 1: I've had things where I was in a school and

2089
01:52:43,320 --> 01:52:45,280
Speaker 1: my school essentially turned into a police state because there

2090
01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:47,559
Speaker 1: are people who I couldn't talk to about things because

2091
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:49,599
Speaker 1: of things that happened to me that if if, if

2092
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:52,000
Speaker 1: if any of them hurt it and one time someone

2093
01:52:52,040 --> 01:52:54,080
Speaker 1: didn't had to literally beg them, like on my knees

2094
01:52:54,160 --> 01:52:56,320
Speaker 1: not to report me, right, not not to report the

2095
01:52:56,320 --> 01:52:58,599
Speaker 1: thing that happened to me, because if you know, because

2096
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:01,479
Speaker 1: because if if that had and heard, like and if

2097
01:53:01,479 --> 01:53:03,240
Speaker 1: that had actually been reported, it would have you know,

2098
01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:04,880
Speaker 1: it would have started an enormous process and I would

2099
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:08,960
Speaker 1: have had to, you know, like the I I would

2100
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:11,080
Speaker 1: have had to, you know, deal with this, like this

2101
01:53:11,120 --> 01:53:16,200
Speaker 1: is an institutionalized thing. And that like the absolute terror

2102
01:53:16,920 --> 01:53:21,760
Speaker 1: that this kind of stuff creates where you have to,

2103
01:53:22,520 --> 01:53:24,439
Speaker 1: you know, you have to watch every single word that

2104
01:53:24,479 --> 01:53:26,559
Speaker 1: you say around all of the adults in your life

2105
01:53:26,640 --> 01:53:29,680
Speaker 1: because if you don't do it, they are going to

2106
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:33,040
Speaker 1: report you. It is like the level of psychological terror

2107
01:53:33,040 --> 01:53:36,599
Speaker 1: you were inflicting on people is horrific, and that in

2108
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:40,320
Speaker 1: and of itself just is a cost. Like and and

2109
01:53:40,439 --> 01:53:43,360
Speaker 1: it is something that is going to contribute to trans

2110
01:53:43,439 --> 01:53:46,800
Speaker 1: kids killing themselves, and it's it's just that simple. In

2111
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:49,160
Speaker 1: that place, it is such a life and death issue,

2112
01:53:49,320 --> 01:53:52,400
Speaker 1: so you have to really be forced to go. Yeah,

2113
01:53:52,840 --> 01:53:56,799
Speaker 1: it goes into like it's very like ontological issue as well, um.

2114
01:53:56,880 --> 01:53:59,200
Speaker 1: And it deals with so many things around the nature

2115
01:53:59,320 --> 01:54:01,679
Speaker 1: of like the and what you're allowed to be inside

2116
01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:06,240
Speaker 1: as this societal construct um. And they're just trying to

2117
01:54:06,439 --> 01:54:09,280
Speaker 1: make that impossible for so many people, and they make

2118
01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:13,880
Speaker 1: everything so limited in their very narrow version of what

2119
01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:17,800
Speaker 1: they want the world to be that makes them feel comfortable. Yeah.

2120
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:19,880
Speaker 1: And then and you know, because because it's not it's

2121
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:21,400
Speaker 1: not what the world is, they have to use violence

2122
01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:25,640
Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, So because it's stuck, because that

2123
01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:27,800
Speaker 1: is the rule that that is, That is the rules

2124
01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:30,840
Speaker 1: that we're playing by. That is the game we're playing. Yeah, my, my,

2125
01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 1: only the the the default response to be for those

2126
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:38,080
Speaker 1: people is yeah, they need to they need to fix

2127
01:54:38,120 --> 01:54:40,240
Speaker 1: their hearts or die and just get out of the way.

2128
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:44,120
Speaker 1: And because it's that's they already have that for us,

2129
01:54:44,440 --> 01:54:46,200
Speaker 1: except they don't want us to fix their hearts. They

2130
01:54:46,240 --> 01:54:48,720
Speaker 1: just want us to die. So like we are way

2131
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:52,120
Speaker 1: more empathetic than they are, um, because they can just

2132
01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:54,760
Speaker 1: not be transphobic. They cannot, they can they can just

2133
01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:57,480
Speaker 1: not do these things. Um. But if they're gonna keep

2134
01:54:57,520 --> 01:55:01,240
Speaker 1: doubling down, then yeah, well that's if if you want

2135
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:03,720
Speaker 1: to play by their rules, then we need to start

2136
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:05,600
Speaker 1: playing by their rules because they're not going to have

2137
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:08,440
Speaker 1: if they're not going to change the rules, then that

2138
01:55:08,560 --> 01:55:10,080
Speaker 1: is the that is the game that they want us

2139
01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:16,240
Speaker 1: to do. Um. And again like actual, like I wanted,

2140
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:18,360
Speaker 1: I always, I always perhaps it's like this always want

2141
01:55:18,360 --> 01:55:20,240
Speaker 1: to kind of end with like here are some steps

2142
01:55:20,240 --> 01:55:22,400
Speaker 1: that you can like take that are relatively easy, and

2143
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:25,320
Speaker 1: it's it's it's challenging for these types of some sorts

2144
01:55:25,360 --> 01:55:27,880
Speaker 1: of things like like there, yes, there is things you

2145
01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:30,400
Speaker 1: can do around you know, getting like making sure you're

2146
01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:33,560
Speaker 1: aware of what bills are being talked about in your

2147
01:55:33,600 --> 01:55:37,880
Speaker 1: local like your local area, contacting representatives to to do stuff,

2148
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:40,880
Speaker 1: going to going to you know, either whether their school

2149
01:55:40,880 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 1: board meetings or stuff. But like a lot of the

2150
01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:47,520
Speaker 1: electoralist type of ideas around this feels always so inadequate, um,

2151
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:51,080
Speaker 1: and that it feels always so fake. Um that you know,

2152
01:55:51,200 --> 01:55:53,400
Speaker 1: it's it's it is so much it feels a lot

2153
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:56,040
Speaker 1: easier to that to like, you know, figure out different

2154
01:55:56,080 --> 01:55:58,520
Speaker 1: ways to actually help actual trans people in your area,

2155
01:55:59,160 --> 01:56:01,840
Speaker 1: um and give trans people money, um like because like

2156
01:56:01,960 --> 01:56:04,720
Speaker 1: that is often can be actually have a way more

2157
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:08,640
Speaker 1: positive effects, at least effects that are like observable. But like,

2158
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:11,120
Speaker 1: but there are also ways to stop this type of legislation,

2159
01:56:11,160 --> 01:56:12,760
Speaker 1: like there is that, there is, there is there is

2160
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:15,600
Speaker 1: ways to do that, and I will I'll try to

2161
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:17,160
Speaker 1: get into more of that kind of stuff as well

2162
01:56:17,440 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 1: once we get you know, our our week long of

2163
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:23,320
Speaker 1: stuff about the war on trendspeople, um, that will be

2164
01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:32,320
Speaker 1: upcoming probably sometime in this in this next month. Yeah. Um. Remember, folks,

2165
01:56:32,440 --> 01:56:36,360
Speaker 1: if anybody ever suggests doing something for children that isn't

2166
01:56:36,400 --> 01:56:39,200
Speaker 1: providing them with food or shelter, you should probably hit

2167
01:56:39,240 --> 01:56:41,880
Speaker 1: that person because they're probably trying to fund something up

2168
01:56:41,920 --> 01:56:48,560
Speaker 1: for somebody. It's nearly always don't trust anyone who says

2169
01:56:48,600 --> 01:56:51,920
Speaker 1: there we need to do something to protect children that

2170
01:56:52,080 --> 01:56:54,680
Speaker 1: they're lying to you as as a rule, they're lying

2171
01:56:54,720 --> 01:57:09,320
Speaker 1: to you. Um anyway, you guys, Um, how's the boy

2172
01:57:09,360 --> 01:57:13,880
Speaker 1: that's Star Wars? Oh yeah, I love there's the there's

2173
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:16,880
Speaker 1: the there's the the Obi WANs coming out that'll be good.

2174
01:57:17,040 --> 01:57:21,360
Speaker 1: I am excited for the obi WANs because speaking of speaking,

2175
01:57:21,400 --> 01:57:24,440
Speaker 1: speaking of you and McGregor. A few months ago, I

2176
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:28,080
Speaker 1: saw the film Velvet gold Mine starring you and McGregor,

2177
01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 1: which is a wonderful, like pseudo fictional film but about

2178
01:57:32,200 --> 01:57:35,920
Speaker 1: kind of the glam rock era inside Britain. It's very,

2179
01:57:36,040 --> 01:57:39,120
Speaker 1: very very gay, very whole bunch of a whole bunch

2180
01:57:39,160 --> 01:57:43,440
Speaker 1: of very good twink action. And there was one scene where, um,

2181
01:57:43,600 --> 01:57:46,920
Speaker 1: you McGregor's character, he's he's like, he's kind of based

2182
01:57:46,920 --> 01:57:50,120
Speaker 1: off one of the one of those types of music people.

2183
01:57:50,160 --> 01:57:55,440
Speaker 1: I forget, I forget which one it is. Um, I think, people,

2184
01:57:56,440 --> 01:57:58,160
Speaker 1: I think, I think, I think. I think he's playing

2185
01:57:58,280 --> 01:58:00,200
Speaker 1: like a kind of a version of that. But there's

2186
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:02,320
Speaker 1: one scene where he's doing performance where he takes all

2187
01:58:02,320 --> 01:58:03,760
Speaker 1: of his close off on stage and you get to

2188
01:58:03,760 --> 01:58:08,400
Speaker 1: see you and McGregor's dick, um and yeah you do.

2189
01:58:08,960 --> 01:58:11,840
Speaker 1: So if if people, if people want to see a

2190
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:15,560
Speaker 1: kind of David Bowie esque film starring you and McGregor,

2191
01:58:15,560 --> 01:58:18,000
Speaker 1: it has it has like a weird gay email, Christian

2192
01:58:18,080 --> 01:58:20,640
Speaker 1: bale As as a twink, and a whole bunch of

2193
01:58:20,640 --> 01:58:23,840
Speaker 1: other really really solid twink stuff. I would recommend watching

2194
01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:26,680
Speaker 1: Vella guld Mine. It has it has a lot of

2195
01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:29,440
Speaker 1: great stuff. Um and you do very early in the

2196
01:58:29,480 --> 01:58:32,720
Speaker 1: film get to see you and McGregor's penis just flapping

2197
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:36,320
Speaker 1: around on stage and it is. It's pretty good. It's

2198
01:58:37,120 --> 01:58:39,640
Speaker 1: speaking of movies where you see a famous person's dick.

2199
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:42,200
Speaker 1: If you want to see another famous penis the movie

2200
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:46,080
Speaker 1: Galaxy Quest contains several shots and Tim Allen Dong. I

2201
01:58:46,120 --> 01:58:49,240
Speaker 1: don't want to see Tim Allen's hanging wang as as

2202
01:58:49,280 --> 01:58:51,720
Speaker 1: someone who's seen both Galaxy Quest and Velvea gould Mine

2203
01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:55,200
Speaker 1: and who appreciates both films. Dearly You and You and

2204
01:58:55,280 --> 01:59:00,960
Speaker 1: McGregor is miles hotter than Tim Allen Dong. Shot is

2205
01:59:01,040 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 1: not hot. It's not pleased. It is not supposed to be.

2206
01:59:03,960 --> 01:59:08,920
Speaker 1: He has hungover in his like bathrobe leaning over. But

2207
01:59:09,280 --> 01:59:10,640
Speaker 1: if you want, if you if you want to see

2208
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:14,360
Speaker 1: see rain or Fastbenders, Dick Germany and Autumn. Okay, that

2209
01:59:14,440 --> 01:59:16,560
Speaker 1: that's I could. I could. I could do that very

2210
01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:20,760
Speaker 1: weird movie. However, alright, alright, if you in terms of

2211
01:59:20,800 --> 01:59:22,920
Speaker 1: in terms of actionable things to make you feel better,

2212
01:59:23,040 --> 01:59:25,560
Speaker 1: everyone go watch Vela gold Mine because it has some

2213
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:29,040
Speaker 1: dairy it has some very good gender play, has wonderful,

2214
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:32,320
Speaker 1: wonderful suf around gender, wonderfu stuff around gayness. And yeah,

2215
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:34,560
Speaker 1: the film from like the nineties where there it was

2216
01:59:34,600 --> 01:59:36,680
Speaker 1: like lots of gay fucking and you're like, wow, how

2217
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:39,720
Speaker 1: is this filmmate in the nineties, because it is a

2218
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,320
Speaker 1: whole bunch of like big name actors now who were

2219
01:59:42,360 --> 01:59:44,920
Speaker 1: like unknown at the time, all being gay and sucking

2220
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:48,520
Speaker 1: each other, and you're like, holy sh it, alright, So

2221
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:52,920
Speaker 1: that is the Uh, that's what we got. That there's

2222
01:59:52,920 --> 01:59:57,120
Speaker 1: your action items. Action items, Go watch, Go watch Velvet

2223
01:59:57,160 --> 01:59:59,600
Speaker 1: gold Mine. Make everyone you know watch Velvet gold Mine

2224
01:59:59,760 --> 02:00:02,760
Speaker 1: and make you feel good about gender takes, screen grabs

2225
02:00:02,760 --> 02:00:05,520
Speaker 1: of Ellin McGregor's dick, make Berner Twitter accounts and just

2226
02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:08,720
Speaker 1: start posting. Just just get it out there, get it

2227
02:00:08,760 --> 02:00:10,960
Speaker 1: out there, so one it needs to know. Throw some

2228
02:00:11,000 --> 02:00:13,120
Speaker 1: of Tim Allen's dick out there too. Don't be don't

2229
02:00:13,120 --> 02:00:16,440
Speaker 1: be choosy. Stick it all all the dicks, all right,

2230
02:00:17,280 --> 02:00:28,520
Speaker 1: that's gonna be the day. That's that's the show. On

2231
02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:32,360
Speaker 1: a cold morning in seven, Sandy Beale was found shot

2232
02:00:32,400 --> 02:00:36,240
Speaker 1: to death in her car. There's no way, it's just

2233
02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:39,360
Speaker 1: it's just no way that it's gonna be. I couldn't

2234
02:00:39,360 --> 02:00:42,400
Speaker 1: believe it. Her death was ruled a suicide, but her

2235
02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:46,680
Speaker 1: family has never bought the official story. Instead, they suspected

2236
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:49,440
Speaker 1: a cover up. I didn't take any of their crap

2237
02:00:50,160 --> 02:00:54,160
Speaker 1: because I could tell that they were hiding something. My

2238
02:00:54,280 --> 02:00:57,480
Speaker 1: name is Melissa Johnson. I'm a reporter who covers violence

2239
02:00:57,520 --> 02:01:01,560
Speaker 1: against women. My new podcast, What Happened to Sandy Beale,

2240
02:01:01,720 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 1: takes a closer look at Sandy's mysterious death. Sander could

2241
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:09,320
Speaker 1: have been retarded by now she's doing sex on the

2242
02:01:09,400 --> 02:01:12,920
Speaker 1: ground because when Sandy was found dead, it suddenly made

2243
02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:15,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people very nervous. She had a lot

2244
02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:19,600
Speaker 1: going for her. I can't imagine in one year things

2245
02:01:19,680 --> 02:01:23,920
Speaker 1: going that tragically wrong. Listen to What Happened to Sandy

2246
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:27,120
Speaker 1: Beale starting March nine on the I Heart Radio app,

2247
02:01:27,480 --> 02:01:31,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Look at

2248
02:01:31,320 --> 02:01:34,760
Speaker 1: your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest.

2249
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Speaker 1: It's a storybook world for them. You look and see

2250
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Speaker 1: a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard

2251
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:45,240
Speaker 1: with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles.

2252
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:48,440
Speaker 1: They see a windy path that could lead to adventure,

2253
02:01:48,800 --> 02:01:53,240
Speaker 1: and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world?

2254
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Speaker 1: Find a forest near you and start exploring it. Discover

2255
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Speaker 1: the Forest dot org. Brought to you by the United

2256
02:01:58,800 --> 02:02:03,800
Speaker 1: States Forest Service and the Council. Okay, it's de Leeper.

2257
02:02:03,920 --> 02:02:05,959
Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you about my brand new podcast,

2258
02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:10,280
Speaker 1: de Relieber at your service. I'll be sitting down with

2259
02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:13,240
Speaker 1: the world's most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them tick,

2260
02:02:13,360 --> 02:02:16,400
Speaker 1: what they've learned from their successes, failures, and the obstacles

2261
02:02:16,440 --> 02:02:20,640
Speaker 1: life has thrown at them. We're going deep with people

2262
02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:24,760
Speaker 1: revolutionizing not just their own industries, but also culture more broadly.

2263
02:02:25,320 --> 02:02:28,040
Speaker 1: From Lisa Today, the author redefining what it means to

2264
02:02:28,080 --> 02:02:32,280
Speaker 1: tell women's stories, to the fashion industry virtuoso Olivier Roosting.

2265
02:02:34,440 --> 02:02:36,280
Speaker 1: You'll even hear me break bread with some of the

2266
02:02:36,320 --> 02:02:40,080
Speaker 1: most iconic and disseous names in pop culture, like Sir

2267
02:02:40,160 --> 02:02:43,640
Speaker 1: Elton John. After a lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments,

2268
02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:45,880
Speaker 1: a lot of betrayals, It's turned out to be the

2269
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 1: most wonderful life right now that I've could ever imagined.

2270
02:02:49,320 --> 02:02:51,160
Speaker 1: I can't wait to share all of this and more

2271
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:53,880
Speaker 1: with you. Listen to do Relieber at your service on

2272
02:02:53,920 --> 02:02:57,080
Speaker 1: the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you

2273
02:02:57,120 --> 02:03:12,400
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Welcome, it could happen here. A podcast

2274
02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:15,880
Speaker 1: that is uh you know this this this, This is

2275
02:03:15,920 --> 02:03:18,800
Speaker 1: the podcast about the world falling apart. The world is

2276
02:03:19,440 --> 02:03:23,760
Speaker 1: in fact falling apart extremely quickly right now. And I'm

2277
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:26,120
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Christopher, and I am here today to

2278
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:28,920
Speaker 1: talk about an immense occupying army with an extensive record

2279
02:03:28,960 --> 02:03:31,720
Speaker 1: of torture and extradicial killings. I am referring, of course

2280
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:35,800
Speaker 1: to the Chicago Police Departments and with with me to

2281
02:03:35,880 --> 02:03:40,760
Speaker 1: talk about yet more just absolute horrors that this department

2282
02:03:40,800 --> 02:03:45,000
Speaker 1: has committed here and worldwide. I have Raven, who is

2283
02:03:45,000 --> 02:03:47,960
Speaker 1: a journalist in Chicago Free Media. Raven, Welcome to the

2284
02:03:47,960 --> 02:03:51,320
Speaker 1: show and thank you for joining us. Hi, thank you

2285
02:03:51,400 --> 02:03:54,840
Speaker 1: for having me. Yeah, how how how have you been

2286
02:03:54,840 --> 02:04:01,960
Speaker 1: holding up in these uh oh boy, things are going bad? Yeah,

2287
02:04:02,000 --> 02:04:04,879
Speaker 1: you know, we uh we have discussed doing this interview

2288
02:04:04,920 --> 02:04:08,000
Speaker 1: earlier this week, and I don't think either of us

2289
02:04:08,080 --> 02:04:16,160
Speaker 1: expected uh Russia to invade Ukraine. Last night was yeah,

2290
02:04:16,200 --> 02:04:19,080
Speaker 1: and that wasn't even the yeah, it was the convoys

2291
02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:20,520
Speaker 1: about you know, this is this is a this is

2292
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:25,880
Speaker 1: a a time of chaos and death. Um. But I

2293
02:04:26,360 --> 02:04:30,160
Speaker 1: think it's important to understand that he has always has

2294
02:04:30,160 --> 02:04:34,880
Speaker 1: always been a time of chaos and death. And yeah,

2295
02:04:34,920 --> 02:04:38,600
Speaker 1: and I think especially where the Chicago Police Department is concerned. Um,

2296
02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:43,000
Speaker 1: we've talked about, we've we've talked about some of their

2297
02:04:43,040 --> 02:04:46,200
Speaker 1: more famous crimes on the show. But I wanted to

2298
02:04:46,200 --> 02:04:49,400
Speaker 1: have ravenon to talk about a police killing that I

2299
02:04:49,440 --> 02:04:52,280
Speaker 1: don't think got that much attention. I mean not even

2300
02:04:52,680 --> 02:04:55,440
Speaker 1: because I got a lot of in Chicago, but even

2301
02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:57,600
Speaker 1: inside Chicago, I don't think it's as well known as

2302
02:04:57,880 --> 02:05:00,880
Speaker 1: some of the other police killings. And that's the killing

2303
02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:06,640
Speaker 1: of Rikia Boyd. Um. Yeah, do you want to walk

2304
02:05:06,720 --> 02:05:12,920
Speaker 1: us through how basically what what happened the night that

2305
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:17,280
Speaker 1: uh don't I servant killed Riquet Boyd? And yeah, we

2306
02:05:17,280 --> 02:05:20,680
Speaker 1: can start from there. Sure, sure, I mean there's some

2307
02:05:20,720 --> 02:05:25,480
Speaker 1: context here for sure about sort of the the way

2308
02:05:25,480 --> 02:05:29,440
Speaker 1: we ignore the murders of black women specifically. Um. And

2309
02:05:29,480 --> 02:05:34,400
Speaker 1: you know, Rickia Boyd was was murdered after sort of

2310
02:05:34,440 --> 02:05:38,080
Speaker 1: like the first wave of of national Black Lives Matter protests.

2311
02:05:38,080 --> 02:05:40,120
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like it wasn't on the radar right

2312
02:05:40,200 --> 02:05:45,360
Speaker 1: that people weren't talking about police killing black people. Um,

2313
02:05:45,440 --> 02:05:47,480
Speaker 1: but there, you know, there is this long standing issue

2314
02:05:47,480 --> 02:05:51,160
Speaker 1: of course, was like the killings of black women specifically

2315
02:05:51,320 --> 02:05:54,480
Speaker 1: not getting as much attention, right, And this was just

2316
02:05:55,440 --> 02:06:01,120
Speaker 1: such a horrible, horrible incident that, like, I mean, looking

2317
02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:03,000
Speaker 1: at the details, even even though I live here and

2318
02:06:03,040 --> 02:06:04,960
Speaker 1: I was like around when it happened, and some of

2319
02:06:04,960 --> 02:06:07,160
Speaker 1: our other you know, the other journalists and are collective

2320
02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:11,480
Speaker 1: covered the protests and and and the the court drama

2321
02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:14,560
Speaker 1: and everything, it still just blows my mind, um, the

2322
02:06:14,600 --> 02:06:20,840
Speaker 1: way this happened, and um, you know, ultimately the most

2323
02:06:20,880 --> 02:06:22,400
Speaker 1: important thing to take away from it is that her

2324
02:06:22,440 --> 02:06:26,800
Speaker 1: family never saw a justice. He walked away, He walked

2325
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:31,960
Speaker 1: away from the incident and then went on to start

2326
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:35,920
Speaker 1: training police in Latin America, which we can talk about also.

2327
02:06:36,880 --> 02:06:39,360
Speaker 1: So so not only did this, did the Chicago police

2328
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:43,080
Speaker 1: officer who was off duty with an unregistered gun murder

2329
02:06:43,080 --> 02:06:46,200
Speaker 1: and innocent twenty two year old black women hanging out

2330
02:06:46,200 --> 02:06:49,040
Speaker 1: with her friends in a park. He then got a

2331
02:06:49,120 --> 02:06:53,280
Speaker 1: job with like a tactical training institute to travel to

2332
02:06:53,440 --> 02:06:59,480
Speaker 1: Honduras and train police there. Yeah. I think, yeah, we can.

2333
02:06:59,640 --> 02:07:01,840
Speaker 1: I think we yeah, we definitely will be getting to

2334
02:07:01,880 --> 02:07:06,560
Speaker 1: the sort of international ankle of this. But yeah, the

2335
02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:10,400
Speaker 1: export of American policing essentially. Yeah, but I guess for

2336
02:07:10,440 --> 02:07:13,600
Speaker 1: people who aren't familiar with what happened, UM can can

2337
02:07:13,640 --> 02:07:19,120
Speaker 1: cantinue walk through that. Yeah, so, so servant showed up

2338
02:07:19,640 --> 02:07:25,840
Speaker 1: um at a park with an unregistered gun. Um he

2339
02:07:26,280 --> 02:07:30,440
Speaker 1: you know, witnesses reported that he smelled like alcohol that night.

2340
02:07:30,520 --> 02:07:32,280
Speaker 1: He may have been drinking. I don't know if that

2341
02:07:32,360 --> 02:07:37,840
Speaker 1: that was ever verified, but certainly wouldn't be surprising. Um

2342
02:07:38,240 --> 02:07:40,640
Speaker 1: showed up at this park to complain about a group

2343
02:07:40,680 --> 02:07:48,440
Speaker 1: of people making noise, and one ofver Key Avoid's friends

2344
02:07:48,680 --> 02:07:51,080
Speaker 1: approached the car with a cell phone in his hand,

2345
02:07:51,840 --> 02:07:54,280
Speaker 1: which Servant then would go on to say, I thought

2346
02:07:54,280 --> 02:07:58,920
Speaker 1: was a gun and started firing shots and shot Roky

2347
02:07:59,000 --> 02:08:03,560
Speaker 1: Avoid in the head. Um he wasn't on duty, He

2348
02:08:03,600 --> 02:08:07,360
Speaker 1: wasn't actively policing. This was totally totally outside of the

2349
02:08:07,360 --> 02:08:14,160
Speaker 1: realm of duty incident, right, yeah, Um, And no weapon

2350
02:08:14,240 --> 02:08:17,080
Speaker 1: was ever recovered from the scene, Nothing like that. I mean,

2351
02:08:17,160 --> 02:08:22,200
Speaker 1: it was there was no in no universe was there

2352
02:08:22,240 --> 02:08:27,040
Speaker 1: any justification for this, right, It just defies it defies

2353
02:08:27,120 --> 02:08:31,960
Speaker 1: logic like that that it could even happen this way. Um.

2354
02:08:32,040 --> 02:08:35,120
Speaker 1: And after it happened, you know, so not only did

2355
02:08:35,120 --> 02:08:39,320
Speaker 1: he kill Rickie avoid in this park, um, but after

2356
02:08:39,360 --> 02:08:41,280
Speaker 1: it happened, there was there was just a lot of

2357
02:08:41,320 --> 02:08:43,320
Speaker 1: like there were a lot of missteps in in the

2358
02:08:43,400 --> 02:08:48,080
Speaker 1: justice system. Um. And it has been I think, I

2359
02:08:48,120 --> 02:08:51,200
Speaker 1: want to say, like seventeen years at that point since

2360
02:08:51,240 --> 02:08:57,560
Speaker 1: a Chicago cop had actually been charged with with murder, right, Um,

2361
02:08:57,680 --> 02:08:59,600
Speaker 1: So it has been a long time since there had

2362
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:09,400
Speaker 1: been even any accountability. And um, basically the prosecutor there

2363
02:09:09,480 --> 02:09:12,600
Speaker 1: was something called a directed verdict where the prosecutor essentially

2364
02:09:13,480 --> 02:09:17,920
Speaker 1: under charged him intentionally or we think it was intentionally,

2365
02:09:18,880 --> 02:09:23,120
Speaker 1: um with with like reckless conduct and manslaughter. And the

2366
02:09:23,200 --> 02:09:30,960
Speaker 1: judge tossed the case because the judge was saying, you know,

2367
02:09:31,120 --> 02:09:33,800
Speaker 1: it didn't even meet the criteria for for reckless conduct

2368
02:09:33,800 --> 02:09:36,760
Speaker 1: because it was clearly first degree murder. And then he

2369
02:09:36,800 --> 02:09:40,600
Speaker 1: couldn't be tried again because of rules surrounding double jeopardy,

2370
02:09:40,960 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 1: which is like just a it's just like what like

2371
02:09:46,040 --> 02:09:48,680
Speaker 1: it's it's such like I was reading this like it's passling,

2372
02:09:48,800 --> 02:09:52,680
Speaker 1: like it's like this whole thing is like it's it's

2373
02:09:52,800 --> 02:09:56,160
Speaker 1: very like very very seemed very clearly to fail. It's like, yeah,

2374
02:09:56,200 --> 02:09:58,520
Speaker 1: like we're we're gonna, we're gonna intentionally have a case

2375
02:09:59,000 --> 02:10:01,080
Speaker 1: when we try this guy with things that you that

2376
02:10:01,120 --> 02:10:04,000
Speaker 1: you just you cannot convictim of because like again it's

2377
02:10:04,040 --> 02:10:07,040
Speaker 1: it's it's not it's not like manslaughter. He just he

2378
02:10:07,520 --> 02:10:13,000
Speaker 1: drove up and shot her. He very very clearly with

2379
02:10:13,080 --> 02:10:17,360
Speaker 1: intention shot Ricky Boyd. And it very much seems like

2380
02:10:17,400 --> 02:10:19,360
Speaker 1: they planned this out that they were like and you know,

2381
02:10:19,600 --> 02:10:21,560
Speaker 1: this is we talked about this on on the last

2382
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:26,879
Speaker 1: CPD episode, Like prosecutors collaborate with judges and the police

2383
02:10:27,080 --> 02:10:32,560
Speaker 1: constantly because that's just how the thing called the justice

2384
02:10:32,560 --> 02:10:35,600
Speaker 1: system works. Um. But like yeah, like this is like

2385
02:10:35,640 --> 02:10:39,480
Speaker 1: a parcripularly egregious example of them just setting up a

2386
02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:44,800
Speaker 1: case that they know that they just knew would fail exactly.

2387
02:10:44,920 --> 02:10:48,480
Speaker 1: And this is the same prosecutor who was ousted in

2388
02:10:48,520 --> 02:10:54,360
Speaker 1: the aftermath of the Laca McDonald murder. Um. You know,

2389
02:10:54,400 --> 02:10:57,080
Speaker 1: there were there were very large protests. Then there was

2390
02:10:57,080 --> 02:10:59,560
Speaker 1: a hashtag going on social media. Her name is Anita

2391
02:10:59,560 --> 02:11:03,800
Speaker 1: alvarett As. The hashtag was by Anita yeah, and it

2392
02:11:03,880 --> 02:11:06,280
Speaker 1: was Anita alphres Like I think people outside the city

2393
02:11:06,600 --> 02:11:09,200
Speaker 1: probably didn't. I don't know about much about this, but

2394
02:11:09,240 --> 02:11:15,920
Speaker 1: like this Anita Alvarez was like so hated that like

2395
02:11:15,920 --> 02:11:19,640
Speaker 1: like every like like everyone in the city basically worked

2396
02:11:19,640 --> 02:11:22,600
Speaker 1: together a runner out like you had, like you had

2397
02:11:22,640 --> 02:11:28,280
Speaker 1: like liberals and anarchist groups like working together like like ever,

2398
02:11:28,480 --> 02:11:31,240
Speaker 1: like everyone in this like all like the the the electoralists,

2399
02:11:31,280 --> 02:11:34,560
Speaker 1: nanti electoralists, like the people who just like have no

2400
02:11:34,680 --> 02:11:37,040
Speaker 1: politics basically whatsoever. Like it was, it was just sort

2401
02:11:37,040 --> 02:11:42,240
Speaker 1: of it was just really incredible like coalition because she,

2402
02:11:42,960 --> 02:11:45,760
Speaker 1: like just the stuff Anita Alpharez is doing is just

2403
02:11:46,080 --> 02:11:49,440
Speaker 1: so egregious that everyone was able to find a way

2404
02:11:49,480 --> 02:11:52,720
Speaker 1: to put aside their differences on just the logic of

2405
02:11:53,040 --> 02:11:58,600
Speaker 1: get her out right right. But you know, to know

2406
02:11:58,840 --> 02:12:01,280
Speaker 1: again that was in the for matha of the Lakoha

2407
02:12:01,320 --> 02:12:05,360
Speaker 1: McDonald's shooting. And you know, it wasn't it didn't what

2408
02:12:05,440 --> 02:12:10,640
Speaker 1: happened with Rickia Boyd wasn't enough for those large protests.

2409
02:12:10,760 --> 02:12:14,200
Speaker 1: And and this is not to like Denni Grade or

2410
02:12:14,240 --> 02:12:16,360
Speaker 1: to mean the people who did come out in protests,

2411
02:12:16,360 --> 02:12:20,040
Speaker 1: because it's still like like there were still protests, don't

2412
02:12:20,040 --> 02:12:23,600
Speaker 1: get me wrong, Like people showed up for Rakia. But

2413
02:12:24,600 --> 02:12:28,240
Speaker 1: the difference in people showing up for Rakia and people

2414
02:12:28,320 --> 02:12:31,720
Speaker 1: showing up for black men being shot, you know, like

2415
02:12:31,800 --> 02:12:33,840
Speaker 1: that that's something that black women have drawn attention to you.

2416
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:35,240
Speaker 1: You know, they're like, why don't you care when we

2417
02:12:35,240 --> 02:12:40,520
Speaker 1: get murdered? Um, And it's just it's become this sort

2418
02:12:40,560 --> 02:12:44,640
Speaker 1: of um, you know, ongoing chance. Like if you go

2419
02:12:44,680 --> 02:12:48,600
Speaker 1: to any Chicago racial justice protests, you will hear people say,

2420
02:12:49,120 --> 02:12:51,520
Speaker 1: we do this for Lakwan, we do this for Rakiya,

2421
02:12:52,720 --> 02:12:56,280
Speaker 1: because it's just one of those names that, for whatever reason,

2422
02:12:56,520 --> 02:12:58,360
Speaker 1: based on what was going on in the media at

2423
02:12:58,400 --> 02:13:02,560
Speaker 1: the time, just like didn't make its way outside of

2424
02:13:02,640 --> 02:13:07,000
Speaker 1: Chicago very much. Um. And we're seeing a similar sort

2425
02:13:07,000 --> 02:13:09,560
Speaker 1: of situation right now with what happened with the mirrorlock

2426
02:13:09,680 --> 02:13:13,440
Speaker 1: in Minneapolis. Right Like that was something where I think

2427
02:13:13,840 --> 02:13:17,040
Speaker 1: a lot of us thought, Okay, wow, this this is

2428
02:13:17,040 --> 02:13:19,880
Speaker 1: gonna this is going to explode. You know, this is

2429
02:13:19,880 --> 02:13:23,080
Speaker 1: such just a horrible miscarriage of justice, Like how could

2430
02:13:23,080 --> 02:13:27,400
Speaker 1: this happen? Um, Surely there will be massive protests again,

2431
02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:30,240
Speaker 1: you know, something like that. And of course, you know,

2432
02:13:30,320 --> 02:13:33,080
Speaker 1: Minneapolis was out there. We had like some small actions

2433
02:13:33,080 --> 02:13:37,200
Speaker 1: here in Chicago, but didn't really catch fire, so to say,

2434
02:13:37,520 --> 02:13:39,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that there's always sort of cycles

2435
02:13:39,640 --> 02:13:42,320
Speaker 1: of this where you know that there's cycles where you

2436
02:13:42,360 --> 02:13:46,240
Speaker 1: get these massive protesting cycles you don't but you know,

2437
02:13:46,240 --> 02:13:47,640
Speaker 1: and I think this is one of the things with

2438
02:13:47,880 --> 02:13:49,240
Speaker 1: that you can look at with the cube way to

2439
02:13:49,360 --> 02:13:53,600
Speaker 1: where it's it's like, regardless of whether people are in

2440
02:13:53,640 --> 02:13:59,360
Speaker 1: the streets or not, the killing continues. And yeah, and

2441
02:13:59,480 --> 02:14:01,800
Speaker 1: I think that just just sort of that's an extremely

2442
02:14:02,800 --> 02:14:05,280
Speaker 1: grim thing to live with, but that that just you know,

2443
02:14:05,360 --> 02:14:08,440
Speaker 1: that that that's just what the police is, right and

2444
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:12,520
Speaker 1: until you know, until they are actually stopped, you're just

2445
02:14:12,520 --> 02:14:16,640
Speaker 1: gonna keep getting this cycle of I don't even know

2446
02:14:16,680 --> 02:14:19,240
Speaker 1: if select selective outrage is the right word, but you

2447
02:14:19,280 --> 02:14:23,240
Speaker 1: get these cycles of people who get murdered and there's

2448
02:14:23,240 --> 02:14:25,240
Speaker 1: this protests and people who get murdered can get forgotten

2449
02:14:26,680 --> 02:14:31,800
Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, yeah, And and it really does seem

2450
02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:35,400
Speaker 1: to be kind of you know, there's a lot of

2451
02:14:35,480 --> 02:14:39,440
Speaker 1: layers to it, like like obviously the misogyny against black

2452
02:14:39,480 --> 02:14:42,760
Speaker 1: women is part of it, and I think the media

2453
02:14:42,960 --> 02:14:46,120
Speaker 1: just you know, is a part of it too, Like

2454
02:14:46,440 --> 02:14:49,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a part of the media in a sense,

2455
02:14:49,560 --> 02:14:51,800
Speaker 1: but we're alternative media, so it's a little bit different.

2456
02:14:51,880 --> 02:14:54,840
Speaker 1: But you know, like there are there are choices made

2457
02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:59,440
Speaker 1: behind closed doors about what stories to follow and and amplify.

2458
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:04,080
Speaker 1: And um, I will say. You know what I will

2459
02:15:04,120 --> 02:15:08,280
Speaker 1: say is I think because of what happened in twenty

2460
02:15:08,360 --> 02:15:12,440
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot more scrutiny on Chicago police now,

2461
02:15:13,800 --> 02:15:16,800
Speaker 1: at least more mainstream scrutiny of them than there was

2462
02:15:18,280 --> 02:15:23,360
Speaker 1: back in when Rikiya was murdered. Um. And that's not

2463
02:15:23,400 --> 02:15:25,560
Speaker 1: to say that we're doing enough because we have, because

2464
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:31,200
Speaker 1: we absolutely are not. But I I think did in

2465
02:15:31,280 --> 02:15:33,720
Speaker 1: some way, you know, push things just like a little

2466
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:35,880
Speaker 1: bit further, if that makes sense. That you know, there

2467
02:15:35,920 --> 02:15:41,000
Speaker 1: are some more liberal mainstream types of people talking about

2468
02:15:41,040 --> 02:15:44,360
Speaker 1: the horrors of Chicago policing and and all of that.

2469
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:46,560
Speaker 1: But you know, when it comes to Chicago police, like

2470
02:15:46,720 --> 02:15:51,520
Speaker 1: I just they're they're apparatus is so massive, like not

2471
02:15:51,600 --> 02:15:53,960
Speaker 1: just from like the funding they get, but like their

2472
02:15:54,040 --> 02:15:58,160
Speaker 1: media and pr you know, the prosecutors and the judges

2473
02:15:58,240 --> 02:16:02,480
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, are absolutely the part of the policing apparatus.

2474
02:16:02,520 --> 02:16:07,000
Speaker 1: Like they're not separate, right, It's prosecutors are cops, and

2475
02:16:07,040 --> 02:16:09,720
Speaker 1: we have a prosecutor for a mayor and she is

2476
02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:12,520
Speaker 1: a cop like like and and you know it was

2477
02:16:12,560 --> 02:16:15,560
Speaker 1: black youth who tried so hard to speak up about

2478
02:16:15,600 --> 02:16:18,040
Speaker 1: this before she was elected and and said like Lori

2479
02:16:18,200 --> 02:16:23,080
Speaker 1: lifebut is a cop, and people didn't listen to them.

2480
02:16:23,160 --> 02:16:25,440
Speaker 1: And that's where we're at now, where we have this

2481
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:30,040
Speaker 1: this prosecutor for a mayor who's because of her background,

2482
02:16:30,080 --> 02:16:33,119
Speaker 1: like she can only view things through a punitive lens,

2483
02:16:33,160 --> 02:16:37,200
Speaker 1: Like her answer to everything is just punishment. How can

2484
02:16:37,280 --> 02:16:41,440
Speaker 1: we how can we punish people? Yeah, the only things

2485
02:16:41,480 --> 02:16:43,400
Speaker 1: she was trying to do recently was she wanted to

2486
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:50,200
Speaker 1: do these like basically this measure where they called it

2487
02:16:50,240 --> 02:16:52,920
Speaker 1: like an anti gang funding thing, but it was basically

2488
02:16:52,959 --> 02:16:55,360
Speaker 1: just like if there's a group of people, you can

2489
02:16:55,400 --> 02:16:58,640
Speaker 1: just take the cops and just take money from them.

2490
02:16:58,680 --> 02:17:01,080
Speaker 1: And it was like it was just an incredible things

2491
02:17:01,120 --> 02:17:03,360
Speaker 1: like it was it was you know, part of what's

2492
02:17:03,360 --> 02:17:05,119
Speaker 1: going on here is that I've talked about this before,

2493
02:17:05,240 --> 02:17:09,279
Speaker 1: but like Lori Lightfoot is you know, at the time,

2494
02:17:09,720 --> 02:17:11,720
Speaker 1: I think people voted for her partially because they just

2495
02:17:11,760 --> 02:17:14,760
Speaker 1: didn't listen. And the north Siders were just like, oh hey,

2496
02:17:14,760 --> 02:17:18,800
Speaker 1: look it's Loria Lightfoot. But then you know, like part

2497
02:17:18,840 --> 02:17:20,760
Speaker 1: part of it was she she she ran as like

2498
02:17:20,760 --> 02:17:23,959
Speaker 1: the anti machine candidate, and it was like, no, she's

2499
02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:26,800
Speaker 1: just a cop. But like I think the just thing is,

2500
02:17:26,840 --> 02:17:30,440
Speaker 1: you know, like she she's like incredibly widely hated, like

2501
02:17:30,520 --> 02:17:33,879
Speaker 1: to the point where like, you know, the Chicago City

2502
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:37,959
Speaker 1: Council is like not notably a a anti police body,

2503
02:17:38,320 --> 02:17:41,640
Speaker 1: but like even the city Council was like, you can't

2504
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:45,720
Speaker 1: do this. Like then they you know, they actually blocked

2505
02:17:46,480 --> 02:17:48,600
Speaker 1: I think if if if, if I'm if I'm getting

2506
02:17:48,600 --> 02:17:50,320
Speaker 1: my my my facts right on this, like I'm prett

2507
02:17:50,360 --> 02:17:53,280
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that they blocked Life with reposal because

2508
02:17:53,320 --> 02:17:57,840
Speaker 1: it was just like yeah, and that that's been one

2509
02:17:57,879 --> 02:17:59,640
Speaker 1: of the things that was like we've had a couple

2510
02:17:59,840 --> 02:18:04,640
Speaker 1: of like weird kind of like attempts to reign the

2511
02:18:04,640 --> 02:18:08,000
Speaker 1: CPD in, but they're not really happening because of like

2512
02:18:08,520 --> 02:18:11,440
Speaker 1: anti police sentiment. They're basically happening because the city council's

2513
02:18:11,440 --> 02:18:17,760
Speaker 1: feuding with a mayor. Yeah, and and you know I've

2514
02:18:17,760 --> 02:18:23,240
Speaker 1: seen it, like it's it's she's such an god, I

2515
02:18:23,280 --> 02:18:26,640
Speaker 1: could the figure of Mayor lor lor lifebook. I mean,

2516
02:18:26,680 --> 02:18:30,160
Speaker 1: it just makes no sense, right because she's hated by

2517
02:18:30,480 --> 02:18:33,600
Speaker 1: people on the left, you know, who obviously are anti police. Thing,

2518
02:18:33,800 --> 02:18:37,480
Speaker 1: she's also hated by the police. Yeah, I mean it's

2519
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:44,360
Speaker 1: just like yeah she I mean, if you go through

2520
02:18:44,400 --> 02:18:48,480
Speaker 1: any of the conservative like cop blogs and and Twitter accounts,

2521
02:18:48,480 --> 02:18:51,960
Speaker 1: you know she proba police are very active on social media, right,

2522
02:18:51,959 --> 02:18:55,040
Speaker 1: which is you know, it's whole, a whole thing in

2523
02:18:55,120 --> 02:18:59,160
Speaker 1: of itself. These people, you know, they shouldn't be pope

2524
02:18:59,160 --> 02:19:03,640
Speaker 1: broadcasting that on social media that they do. But she's

2525
02:19:03,760 --> 02:19:08,680
Speaker 1: universally hated by everyone at this point. Um, So you know,

2526
02:19:11,080 --> 02:19:13,119
Speaker 1: it's just been a really it's been a really tough

2527
02:19:13,160 --> 02:19:17,920
Speaker 1: couple of years for Chicago since the riots, especially because

2528
02:19:19,160 --> 02:19:22,920
Speaker 1: Chicago just the word has become so loaded in the

2529
02:19:23,000 --> 02:19:28,520
Speaker 1: national media, right, like it's become this this this racist

2530
02:19:28,560 --> 02:19:32,920
Speaker 1: boogeyman essentially for like what what could happen to your

2531
02:19:32,920 --> 02:19:37,800
Speaker 1: city if if the woke mobs successfully defund police or

2532
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:42,359
Speaker 1: you know whatever, which is completely at odds with reality

2533
02:19:42,480 --> 02:19:45,120
Speaker 1: because at no point have we defunded the police, Like

2534
02:19:45,120 --> 02:19:47,840
Speaker 1: they just keeps increased. Yeah, like what what's what what's

2535
02:19:47,840 --> 02:19:51,360
Speaker 1: their budget is? Like is it I want to say

2536
02:19:51,400 --> 02:19:55,360
Speaker 1: it's the total budget, but I think that's low it's

2537
02:19:55,400 --> 02:19:57,640
Speaker 1: something like that. I mean, it's billions of dollars, Like

2538
02:19:57,680 --> 02:20:03,720
Speaker 1: it's we're pumping billions of dollars into this standing army

2539
02:20:03,959 --> 02:20:09,280
Speaker 1: that is that is basically occupying of travel's budget goes

2540
02:20:09,320 --> 02:20:16,560
Speaker 1: to the police department, right right, And you know all

2541
02:20:16,600 --> 02:20:21,320
Speaker 1: of that money could obviously be sent on other things,

2542
02:20:21,520 --> 02:20:25,560
Speaker 1: and and we know, like we know what reduces crime.

2543
02:20:26,040 --> 02:20:29,240
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we could get into like the category

2544
02:20:29,280 --> 02:20:31,280
Speaker 1: of what even is a crime? Right, Like, there are

2545
02:20:31,440 --> 02:20:34,800
Speaker 1: certainly lots of things that shouldn't be labeled crimes that

2546
02:20:34,879 --> 02:20:41,879
Speaker 1: are but we know that communities with resources don't have

2547
02:20:42,040 --> 02:20:46,640
Speaker 1: significant violent crime problems. Like we know that lifting people

2548
02:20:46,640 --> 02:20:50,760
Speaker 1: out of poverty and giving them opportunities and homes and

2549
02:20:50,760 --> 02:20:53,600
Speaker 1: all of these things, like we know that that reduces

2550
02:20:53,680 --> 02:20:59,520
Speaker 1: in our personal harm. And instead we just keep looking

2551
02:20:59,520 --> 02:21:03,080
Speaker 1: at everything through this lens of punishment and how punitive

2552
02:21:03,120 --> 02:21:11,039
Speaker 1: we can be. Yeah, yeah, and it's been I don't know.

2553
02:21:14,120 --> 02:21:17,680
Speaker 1: The Chicago Police Department is just it's just an absolute

2554
02:21:17,720 --> 02:21:22,240
Speaker 1: horror show. Um. And it's a horror show. And and

2555
02:21:22,280 --> 02:21:24,320
Speaker 1: they're also like it's a horror show not just because

2556
02:21:24,320 --> 02:21:28,360
Speaker 1: of how evil they are, but also because they're incompetent right, Yeah,

2557
02:21:29,400 --> 02:21:32,000
Speaker 1: Like you've got them doing all of these really bad

2558
02:21:32,000 --> 02:21:35,760
Speaker 1: things and then they also just like struggle to to

2559
02:21:36,040 --> 02:21:39,520
Speaker 1: cover up their crime, and then they're messing up like

2560
02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:45,840
Speaker 1: along the way at every step. Yeah, and it's yeah,

2561
02:21:47,360 --> 02:21:51,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, they have the cpds like it's they

2562
02:21:51,600 --> 02:21:52,920
Speaker 1: have this kind of you know, I mean, I don't know,

2563
02:21:52,920 --> 02:21:55,000
Speaker 1: I don't know how you exactly unique it is. But

2564
02:21:55,000 --> 02:21:58,000
Speaker 1: but I think going back to our sort of theory

2565
02:21:58,040 --> 02:21:59,840
Speaker 1: of like every police department has one thing at the

2566
02:22:00,000 --> 02:22:02,240
Speaker 1: really good at it, the CBD has this unique combination

2567
02:22:02,280 --> 02:22:06,000
Speaker 1: of like incompetence, torture, and crime that they do. That's

2568
02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:08,800
Speaker 1: like I think, so I think sets it apart from

2569
02:22:08,800 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 1: a lot of other UM police departments. I think that's

2570
02:22:14,160 --> 02:22:16,920
Speaker 1: a good place to sort of jump off into the

2571
02:22:16,959 --> 02:22:20,200
Speaker 1: second I guess part of the Rickyed Boyd story, or

2572
02:22:20,600 --> 02:22:22,879
Speaker 1: really it seems to be the Ricked Boyd story. It's

2573
02:22:22,920 --> 02:22:27,840
Speaker 1: the story of Dante Servant, which is his role in

2574
02:22:28,920 --> 02:22:37,240
Speaker 1: essentially exporting American policing and the horrors of UM, the

2575
02:22:37,240 --> 02:22:39,240
Speaker 1: horror of the American police system, the horrors of sort

2576
02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:42,560
Speaker 1: of American imperialism to other countries because it is not

2577
02:22:42,680 --> 02:22:45,760
Speaker 1: enough that the CPD murders people here, they've also got

2578
02:22:45,760 --> 02:22:50,200
Speaker 1: to do it other places, right, right, And and so

2579
02:22:50,280 --> 02:22:53,440
Speaker 1: there was a there was a Chicago Reader piece written

2580
02:22:53,440 --> 02:22:59,720
Speaker 1: about this UM back in February. Servants not mentioned in it,

2581
02:23:00,000 --> 02:23:02,680
Speaker 1: but it was a really good story. I recommend people

2582
02:23:02,680 --> 02:23:04,840
Speaker 1: look it up because you know, some of this research

2583
02:23:05,040 --> 02:23:07,800
Speaker 1: is not like my original research, right, it's it stems

2584
02:23:07,800 --> 02:23:10,800
Speaker 1: from the research that people with the Invisible Institute did.

2585
02:23:10,920 --> 02:23:17,160
Speaker 1: But essentially, you know, there are Chicago police officers and

2586
02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:20,840
Speaker 1: there's one in particular. His name is Aaron Cunningham. He's

2587
02:23:20,879 --> 02:23:27,960
Speaker 1: the man who UM founded this Tactical Training Institute UM

2588
02:23:28,160 --> 02:23:31,640
Speaker 1: that go you know, they go abroad, like they go

2589
02:23:31,720 --> 02:23:36,760
Speaker 1: to different countries and and it's private, privately funded though

2590
02:23:36,840 --> 02:23:41,080
Speaker 1: they claim to be working with with the SAIS, and

2591
02:23:41,240 --> 02:23:43,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like weird gray area there where

2592
02:23:43,520 --> 02:23:45,640
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of oversight and nobody really knows,

2593
02:23:45,760 --> 02:23:49,480
Speaker 1: like are you getting federal money to do this? Are

2594
02:23:49,520 --> 02:23:52,000
Speaker 1: you just saying you are, like like what's the deal? Right?

2595
02:23:52,040 --> 02:23:55,199
Speaker 1: But the Cunningham was essentially like a crooked cop who

2596
02:23:56,000 --> 02:23:59,600
Speaker 1: funded this tactical Training Institute so that they go overseas

2597
02:23:59,600 --> 02:24:06,480
Speaker 1: to under resource countries with underresourced police departments and train

2598
02:24:06,640 --> 02:24:09,360
Speaker 1: them and how to be police. They train them in

2599
02:24:10,280 --> 02:24:15,280
Speaker 1: crowd control, they trained them in like narcotics and drug investigations,

2600
02:24:15,320 --> 02:24:18,840
Speaker 1: they train them in like gang warfare, you know, all

2601
02:24:18,840 --> 02:24:22,160
Speaker 1: of these things, right, And these are countries that have

2602
02:24:22,920 --> 02:24:27,720
Speaker 1: tremendous issues with like you know, outright warfare going on

2603
02:24:27,879 --> 02:24:33,840
Speaker 1: between gangs and the existing police forces. Right, so they're

2604
02:24:33,840 --> 02:24:36,960
Speaker 1: in desperate need of of of aid of assistance. And

2605
02:24:36,959 --> 02:24:39,720
Speaker 1: and of course, like some of these conflicts that are

2606
02:24:39,760 --> 02:24:43,240
Speaker 1: going on stem from American imperialism to begin with, right,

2607
02:24:44,480 --> 02:24:48,200
Speaker 1: So it's like we caused the problems. Then we're gonna

2608
02:24:48,200 --> 02:24:52,520
Speaker 1: come in and like send a bunch of cops over who,

2609
02:24:52,600 --> 02:24:55,680
Speaker 1: like you know, have extensive misconduct records in their in

2610
02:24:55,720 --> 02:24:57,560
Speaker 1: their home cities, and some of them have even just

2611
02:24:57,600 --> 02:25:00,480
Speaker 1: like murdered innocent women in the park. And we're going

2612
02:25:00,520 --> 02:25:04,760
Speaker 1: to have them train your guys into how to be cops. Yeah,

2613
02:25:04,959 --> 02:25:10,760
Speaker 1: and and yeah, you know that that goes about as

2614
02:25:10,760 --> 02:25:14,400
Speaker 1: well as you would expect it to, which is one

2615
02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:15,880
Speaker 1: of one of the things that the reader piece talks

2616
02:25:15,879 --> 02:25:20,040
Speaker 1: about is so one of they these guys get brought

2617
02:25:20,080 --> 02:25:22,680
Speaker 1: in to train a bunch of cops. Now Salvador, after

2618
02:25:22,800 --> 02:25:25,440
Speaker 1: the Salvadorian police do a bunch of horrible massacres, and

2619
02:25:25,480 --> 02:25:28,240
Speaker 1: then they trained these cops, and then the cops immediately

2620
02:25:28,240 --> 02:25:31,359
Speaker 1: turned around and also again do a bunch of horrible massacres.

2621
02:25:31,879 --> 02:25:37,280
Speaker 1: And it's this, it's this, you know, I mean, I

2622
02:25:37,360 --> 02:25:41,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to de emphasize the fact that like

2623
02:25:42,560 --> 02:25:46,240
Speaker 1: the like Al Salvador for example, like is a place

2624
02:25:46,320 --> 02:25:49,480
Speaker 1: that has its own like native right wing like it

2625
02:25:49,600 --> 02:25:51,640
Speaker 1: had there, like it has his own Salvadorian like right

2626
02:25:51,640 --> 02:25:54,360
Speaker 1: wing death squads, right, and they they back by the CIA.

2627
02:25:54,440 --> 02:25:58,840
Speaker 1: But like you and I don't want to like under

2628
02:25:58,920 --> 02:26:03,520
Speaker 1: my under to play just how violent just like the

2629
02:26:03,560 --> 02:26:06,800
Speaker 1: local reactionaries are, because it's it's not it's like it's

2630
02:26:06,840 --> 02:26:10,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not like they wouldn't also be death

2631
02:26:10,160 --> 02:26:14,520
Speaker 1: squads if the US wasn't there, but like the US,

2632
02:26:14,680 --> 02:26:16,920
Speaker 1: you know, and the chocol Police Apartment sending people to

2633
02:26:16,920 --> 02:26:23,160
Speaker 1: train them is making them even worse. And it's yeah, yeah,

2634
02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:27,519
Speaker 1: and and every place has their own right wing reactionaries,

2635
02:26:27,600 --> 02:26:31,039
Speaker 1: right like we're seeing right now. To bring to loop

2636
02:26:31,160 --> 02:26:33,560
Speaker 1: everything together and just bring us back to like what's

2637
02:26:33,560 --> 02:26:37,840
Speaker 1: going on with Ukraine and Russia. Um, it's related, you know,

2638
02:26:37,920 --> 02:26:42,959
Speaker 1: like both sides of this conflict of their own reactionary

2639
02:26:43,080 --> 02:26:46,920
Speaker 1: right wing forces, right yeah, And anywhere you go around

2640
02:26:46,920 --> 02:26:52,840
Speaker 1: the world, that's going to be a sting and empires

2641
02:26:52,879 --> 02:26:57,280
Speaker 1: like the American Empire or the Russian Empire are or

2642
02:26:57,360 --> 02:27:00,360
Speaker 1: the Al Salvador Empire, you know, whatever empire, they're going

2643
02:27:00,400 --> 02:27:03,080
Speaker 1: to be looking for ways to take advantage of those forces.

2644
02:27:04,680 --> 02:27:11,600
Speaker 1: And I think that what I think is important, Like

2645
02:27:11,879 --> 02:27:13,320
Speaker 1: one of the things I think is important about this

2646
02:27:13,400 --> 02:27:18,040
Speaker 1: politically is to understand that there is a like there

2647
02:27:18,080 --> 02:27:21,160
Speaker 1: there there is an incredible amount of international solidarity between cops,

2648
02:27:21,879 --> 02:27:25,040
Speaker 1: right they have you know, like that you know, I've

2649
02:27:25,080 --> 02:27:27,240
Speaker 1: seen I think there's a book called The Thin Blue

2650
02:27:27,280 --> 02:27:29,320
Speaker 1: Line International, but it's it's yeah, I mean that's that's

2651
02:27:29,400 --> 02:27:32,080
Speaker 1: that's a thing like you see this basically have wore

2652
02:27:32,120 --> 02:27:36,600
Speaker 1: the cops. Like the comps know which side they're on,

2653
02:27:36,959 --> 02:27:39,920
Speaker 1: and it's the side of the other cops. And I

2654
02:27:39,959 --> 02:27:42,520
Speaker 1: think that's something that that confuses a lot of people

2655
02:27:42,520 --> 02:27:44,360
Speaker 1: because you thinks, like for example, like like that's the

2656
02:27:44,440 --> 02:27:48,080
Speaker 1: Chinese police, right, Like the Chinese police like go like

2657
02:27:48,160 --> 02:27:50,240
Speaker 1: we're trained by I think, I mean, what you know

2658
02:27:50,280 --> 02:27:52,920
Speaker 1: because the like the Chraine place in Hong Kong, for example,

2659
02:27:52,959 --> 02:27:56,199
Speaker 1: like that that police force like is still literally justical

2660
02:27:56,240 --> 02:27:58,160
Speaker 1: on your British police force. They just they didn't even

2661
02:27:58,200 --> 02:28:00,360
Speaker 1: like they didn't even bring in new people. They just

2662
02:28:00,440 --> 02:28:04,080
Speaker 1: like promoted a new person who was a British colonial

2663
02:28:04,120 --> 02:28:06,600
Speaker 1: police officer and then made them the new head of

2664
02:28:06,640 --> 02:28:10,080
Speaker 1: the police. And then you know, and those those and

2665
02:28:10,160 --> 02:28:13,440
Speaker 1: those cops are also trained by the trained by American

2666
02:28:13,480 --> 02:28:16,520
Speaker 1: comps train British cops. Uh, they're trained a lot by

2667
02:28:16,560 --> 02:28:18,640
Speaker 1: Israeli cops. Um this and this is this is this

2668
02:28:18,680 --> 02:28:20,560
Speaker 1: is the same thing. You know, it's the same thing

2669
02:28:20,560 --> 02:28:23,080
Speaker 1: with with with with the like the you know like

2670
02:28:24,240 --> 02:28:25,600
Speaker 1: this this is the sort of the same effect that

2671
02:28:25,600 --> 02:28:30,440
Speaker 1: gets you like Erik Prince like you know, being being

2672
02:28:30,680 --> 02:28:32,640
Speaker 1: like hired by the CCP to run stuff and Chang

2673
02:28:32,720 --> 02:28:37,720
Speaker 1: John like it's it's there's there's an incredible right wing

2674
02:28:37,879 --> 02:28:43,800
Speaker 1: sort of militarist comp alliance that go just you know,

2675
02:28:44,040 --> 02:28:46,039
Speaker 1: it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's it's a kind of

2676
02:28:46,040 --> 02:28:50,280
Speaker 1: international police solidarity that scrambles a lot of the sort

2677
02:28:50,320 --> 02:28:54,000
Speaker 1: of perceptions of what people think, like like what what

2678
02:28:54,520 --> 02:28:58,560
Speaker 1: how how people try to think about the world because yeah,

2679
02:28:58,800 --> 02:29:04,119
Speaker 1: and you know, and like fundamentally, like the basis they

2680
02:29:04,160 --> 02:29:07,640
Speaker 1: have is the defensive property and the defensive sort of

2681
02:29:07,680 --> 02:29:12,600
Speaker 1: the like the I usually call like the the global

2682
02:29:12,600 --> 02:29:16,440
Speaker 1: white supremacist regime. And they all know, you know, when

2683
02:29:16,520 --> 02:29:19,560
Speaker 1: when when an American cocks Salvador, like, they know which

2684
02:29:19,560 --> 02:29:22,720
Speaker 1: side they're on. They're on the cops side, and it's

2685
02:29:23,240 --> 02:29:26,200
Speaker 1: and you know, and and they share, they share information,

2686
02:29:26,200 --> 02:29:29,400
Speaker 1: they share weapons, they share tactics, they share are you

2687
02:29:29,440 --> 02:29:35,040
Speaker 1: just literally people, they share training and yeah, and and

2688
02:29:35,080 --> 02:29:38,360
Speaker 1: of course because again it's the cpd uh, they shared

2689
02:29:38,440 --> 02:29:44,720
Speaker 1: Dante's servant. Yeah, and so he he I you know, Apparently,

2690
02:29:44,760 --> 02:29:49,440
Speaker 1: at some point very shortly after the murder of Rakia Boyd,

2691
02:29:49,959 --> 02:29:51,800
Speaker 1: it looks like, based on what I've seen on his

2692
02:29:51,840 --> 02:29:55,240
Speaker 1: social media and what I pieced together from from his

2693
02:29:55,240 --> 02:29:59,280
Speaker 1: employment history, it looks like he had begun working with

2694
02:29:59,440 --> 02:30:03,600
Speaker 1: one of these practical training institutes right before the murder.

2695
02:30:04,920 --> 02:30:08,240
Speaker 1: And then he murdered Rickie Avoid And I mean, I

2696
02:30:08,280 --> 02:30:10,400
Speaker 1: guess technically I'm not supposed to use the word murder,

2697
02:30:10,400 --> 02:30:16,640
Speaker 1: but you know, yeah, no, fucking I mean murdered. And

2698
02:30:17,440 --> 02:30:21,039
Speaker 1: so so he murdered Rickie Avoid and then everything happened

2699
02:30:21,080 --> 02:30:27,199
Speaker 1: with like going through courts, and he walked away without

2700
02:30:27,280 --> 02:30:30,320
Speaker 1: being charged or imprisoned. I mean he was charged, but

2701
02:30:30,360 --> 02:30:35,920
Speaker 1: without being convicted or imprisoned. Then, um, the police board

2702
02:30:36,160 --> 02:30:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, recommended his firing, but he resigned two days

2703
02:30:41,520 --> 02:30:45,920
Speaker 1: before like he was supposed to have his hearing, so

2704
02:30:46,760 --> 02:30:51,039
Speaker 1: he still gets a pension. I'm pretty sure that's how

2705
02:30:51,120 --> 02:30:56,200
Speaker 1: got word. Um yeah, and so he gets Yeah, I

2706
02:30:56,720 --> 02:30:59,000
Speaker 1: don't I thought to confirm that, but I'm pretty sure

2707
02:30:59,000 --> 02:31:02,600
Speaker 1: he gets a pension. So he resigns, and then at

2708
02:31:02,640 --> 02:31:06,400
Speaker 1: some point after he resigned, he starts posting to social

2709
02:31:06,440 --> 02:31:11,879
Speaker 1: media about his trips to Honduras, and you know, it's

2710
02:31:11,920 --> 02:31:14,920
Speaker 1: posting photos of of like hanging out in the bar

2711
02:31:15,080 --> 02:31:18,240
Speaker 1: with with the cops down there and and kind of

2712
02:31:19,360 --> 02:31:21,959
Speaker 1: just all of that. And this is not like public information,

2713
02:31:22,040 --> 02:31:24,360
Speaker 1: like it's he has like a LinkedIn page where he's

2714
02:31:24,400 --> 02:31:28,000
Speaker 1: like the things he's been doing, Like like this is

2715
02:31:28,040 --> 02:31:33,040
Speaker 1: completely public. I don't know like why nobody knows about

2716
02:31:33,040 --> 02:31:35,760
Speaker 1: it or has talked about it. Um, But you know

2717
02:31:35,800 --> 02:31:37,720
Speaker 1: that also I think just comes back to this murder

2718
02:31:37,800 --> 02:31:43,480
Speaker 1: kind of flying under the national radar a lot um,

2719
02:31:43,520 --> 02:31:48,480
Speaker 1: And so you know, we don't know what company or

2720
02:31:48,600 --> 02:31:54,320
Speaker 1: organization he's there with. Um, it doesn't say he's with

2721
02:31:54,520 --> 02:31:58,160
Speaker 1: International Tactical Training Association, which is the the Chicago based

2722
02:31:58,200 --> 02:32:02,000
Speaker 1: group led by Aaron Cunningham and his wife. My guests

2723
02:32:02,040 --> 02:32:04,400
Speaker 1: would be it's that group, because that's the big one

2724
02:32:04,440 --> 02:32:06,680
Speaker 1: out of face out of Chicago. But you know, like

2725
02:32:06,720 --> 02:32:10,160
Speaker 1: we can't, I can't prove it could be another It

2726
02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:14,480
Speaker 1: could be another right wing tactical training group that's training squads. Yeah,

2727
02:32:14,520 --> 02:32:16,400
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, right, is that this is not

2728
02:32:16,640 --> 02:32:20,960
Speaker 1: just happening here in Chicago. So like there are these

2729
02:32:21,000 --> 02:32:26,080
Speaker 1: tactical training groups all over and there are a number

2730
02:32:26,120 --> 02:32:31,880
Speaker 1: of US based ones started by different police officers from

2731
02:32:31,879 --> 02:32:35,520
Speaker 1: different departments because it's kind of like a career path

2732
02:32:35,680 --> 02:32:37,959
Speaker 1: for them in a sense because it's a thing they

2733
02:32:37,959 --> 02:32:41,960
Speaker 1: can do once they retire. You get and it's a

2734
02:32:42,000 --> 02:32:45,840
Speaker 1: money maker. You hold these these tactical training seminars, and

2735
02:32:45,879 --> 02:32:48,600
Speaker 1: so a number of them are domestically based, right, Like

2736
02:32:48,640 --> 02:32:51,280
Speaker 1: they're not necessarily going overseas, but what they're doing is there,

2737
02:32:51,800 --> 02:32:57,000
Speaker 1: they're having these seminars and their training other police officers

2738
02:32:57,040 --> 02:33:00,360
Speaker 1: in like certain things, like some of them be like

2739
02:33:00,400 --> 02:33:02,920
Speaker 1: an afternoon session where you go and you learn about

2740
02:33:02,959 --> 02:33:06,920
Speaker 1: like you know, firearms safety or something. Then there might

2741
02:33:06,959 --> 02:33:10,760
Speaker 1: be like larger ones where you go and you like

2742
02:33:11,480 --> 02:33:14,680
Speaker 1: stay and camp out for like three days and you

2743
02:33:14,800 --> 02:33:20,720
Speaker 1: practice like ambushing guerrilla gangs in the jungle or something

2744
02:33:20,760 --> 02:33:24,920
Speaker 1: like that. Um, And then a lot of them are

2745
02:33:24,959 --> 02:33:29,480
Speaker 1: are based around gun safety and firearms training, and some

2746
02:33:29,600 --> 02:33:32,640
Speaker 1: of those are open as of the general public. It depends.

2747
02:33:33,080 --> 02:33:35,800
Speaker 1: Some of these are like only for other cops or

2748
02:33:35,840 --> 02:33:38,320
Speaker 1: law enforcement and you have to like show I D

2749
02:33:38,879 --> 02:33:42,440
Speaker 1: or military and you have to prove um that you're

2750
02:33:42,440 --> 02:33:45,320
Speaker 1: affiliated with police or military. Some of them are open

2751
02:33:45,360 --> 02:33:46,880
Speaker 1: to the public and you just have to have like

2752
02:33:46,920 --> 02:33:54,720
Speaker 1: a firearms cart. So that's problematic for one reason because

2753
02:33:55,320 --> 02:33:58,480
Speaker 1: we found that in the aftermath of the January six

2754
02:33:58,560 --> 02:34:03,440
Speaker 1: Capital riot that a number of a number of the

2755
02:34:03,480 --> 02:34:10,000
Speaker 1: Capital rioters did attend like firearms training classes, tactical training

2756
02:34:10,040 --> 02:34:20,080
Speaker 1: classes in just various sort of locations. So this is

2757
02:34:20,120 --> 02:34:24,480
Speaker 1: a way for officers who have left the force for

2758
02:34:24,560 --> 02:34:31,199
Speaker 1: whatever reason to then have a captive audience. And yeah,

2759
02:34:31,240 --> 02:34:34,879
Speaker 1: they're teaching them how to like shoot guns and you

2760
02:34:34,879 --> 02:34:39,200
Speaker 1: know follow them more like specific sort of things like that,

2761
02:34:39,280 --> 02:34:43,840
Speaker 1: But what kind of conversations are they having like what

2762
02:34:44,000 --> 02:34:47,240
Speaker 1: kind of ideology is being espoused, what kind of other

2763
02:34:47,360 --> 02:34:51,039
Speaker 1: people are showing up to these meetings, and what are

2764
02:34:51,040 --> 02:34:54,039
Speaker 1: they talking about? What groups are they recruiting for, what

2765
02:34:54,120 --> 02:34:57,440
Speaker 1: are their affiliations. Yeah, and I think and I think

2766
02:34:57,440 --> 02:35:00,400
Speaker 1: that that's something that's important to think of about and

2767
02:35:00,440 --> 02:35:03,960
Speaker 1: also to you know, have have more generation of journalists

2768
02:35:03,959 --> 02:35:07,360
Speaker 1: look into because you know, when when you look at these,

2769
02:35:07,400 --> 02:35:09,959
Speaker 1: I mean like we know we we we've had stories

2770
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:11,959
Speaker 1: like this before, right, Like, I mean, this is a

2771
02:35:12,000 --> 02:35:17,279
Speaker 1: lot of how for example, like the Taiwanese Special Forces

2772
02:35:17,280 --> 02:35:21,120
Speaker 1: for example, uh, spent an enormous amount of parts special force,

2773
02:35:21,200 --> 02:35:23,200
Speaker 1: especially just the Taiwanese armies spent an enormous amount of

2774
02:35:23,200 --> 02:35:26,440
Speaker 1: time doing stuff very similar to this. And you know,

2775
02:35:26,520 --> 02:35:28,880
Speaker 1: the the product of that was and this is uh,

2776
02:35:29,640 --> 02:35:33,039
Speaker 1: this is called warrior um. They're doing this the seventies

2777
02:35:33,080 --> 02:35:36,880
Speaker 1: and during this in the eighties some except the sixties, um,

2778
02:35:36,920 --> 02:35:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, and and I mean the product of this

2779
02:35:39,920 --> 02:35:44,040
Speaker 1: is like arena. The product of this is you know,

2780
02:35:44,200 --> 02:35:48,320
Speaker 1: the like the like one of the people they trained

2781
02:35:48,320 --> 02:35:51,760
Speaker 1: did the Almozete massacre, like and that that that kind

2782
02:35:51,760 --> 02:35:54,400
Speaker 1: of stuff. You can you can trace these these influence

2783
02:35:54,440 --> 02:35:56,480
Speaker 1: networks and you could trace these sort of I mean

2784
02:35:56,560 --> 02:35:58,080
Speaker 1: a lot of this is i mean literally just funded

2785
02:35:58,080 --> 02:36:00,640
Speaker 1: by weird cults, um, but you can, you know, you

2786
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:03,760
Speaker 1: can trace these different sort of paramilitary and intelligence influence networks,

2787
02:36:03,800 --> 02:36:06,879
Speaker 1: and what you see at the end of them is

2788
02:36:07,600 --> 02:36:09,400
Speaker 1: like a lot of the time, it's just a bunch

2789
02:36:09,440 --> 02:36:11,920
Speaker 1: of fascists, and it's a bunch it's a bunch of

2790
02:36:11,920 --> 02:36:15,400
Speaker 1: fascists doing coups. And you know, like in some sense

2791
02:36:15,480 --> 02:36:18,200
Speaker 1: like yeah, this is this is a kind of like,

2792
02:36:20,040 --> 02:36:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, like liberal democracy has this sort of problem, right,

2793
02:36:24,040 --> 02:36:26,960
Speaker 1: which is that in order for liberal democracy too, you know,

2794
02:36:27,120 --> 02:36:29,640
Speaker 1: function as a liberal democracy, you have to have cops.

2795
02:36:29,680 --> 02:36:32,640
Speaker 1: And that means that you're you know, you are producing

2796
02:36:32,680 --> 02:36:37,760
Speaker 1: domestically and internationally a group of just ferocious, bloodthirsty right

2797
02:36:37,800 --> 02:36:40,360
Speaker 1: wing murderers, and you're you're giving them Saya thority, and

2798
02:36:40,400 --> 02:36:43,640
Speaker 1: you're giving them all these training and weapons, and you know,

2799
02:36:43,760 --> 02:36:46,920
Speaker 1: the product of that is they do what they're trying

2800
02:36:46,959 --> 02:36:48,720
Speaker 1: to do, which is they kill people, they torture people,

2801
02:36:48,760 --> 02:36:50,520
Speaker 1: they train other people how to do this, and yeah,

2802
02:36:50,600 --> 02:36:54,400
Speaker 1: you get these these cascading series of effects that lead

2803
02:36:54,520 --> 02:36:56,400
Speaker 1: you know, a bunch of people taking these classes. January six,

2804
02:36:56,440 --> 02:36:58,800
Speaker 1: They lead them to coups all over the world. They

2805
02:36:58,840 --> 02:37:01,640
Speaker 1: leave the desk ods over the world. This has been

2806
02:37:01,720 --> 02:37:04,240
Speaker 1: Nick could happen here? Join us tomorrow for part two

2807
02:37:04,280 --> 02:37:06,600
Speaker 1: of our interview with Raven. You can find us on

2808
02:37:06,680 --> 02:37:09,560
Speaker 1: Instagram and on Twitter. It happened here. Pot check out

2809
02:37:09,600 --> 02:37:11,600
Speaker 1: the cool Zone from more Over podcast and thank you

2810
02:37:11,640 --> 02:37:23,959
Speaker 1: for listening. Adoption of teens from foster care is a

2811
02:37:24,000 --> 02:37:26,320
Speaker 1: topic not enough people know about, and we're here to

2812
02:37:26,400 --> 02:37:29,320
Speaker 1: change that. I'm April Dinnuity, host of the new podcast

2813
02:37:29,480 --> 02:37:33,480
Speaker 1: Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings

2814
02:37:33,520 --> 02:37:36,920
Speaker 1: you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families

2815
02:37:36,920 --> 02:37:40,320
Speaker 1: that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us

2816
02:37:40,440 --> 02:37:43,959
Speaker 1: Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption

2817
02:37:44,080 --> 02:37:46,840
Speaker 1: presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the U.

2818
02:37:46,920 --> 02:37:49,520
Speaker 1: S Department of Health, the Human Services Administration for Children

2819
02:37:49,600 --> 02:37:53,080
Speaker 1: and Families, and the ACT Council. Here there, I'm Scott Rank,

2820
02:37:53,160 --> 02:37:56,080
Speaker 1: host of the podcast History Unplugged. And if you're dreaming

2821
02:37:56,120 --> 02:37:58,760
Speaker 1: of being a full time podcaster someday, you and I

2822
02:37:58,800 --> 02:38:01,160
Speaker 1: have a lot in common. I used to teach history

2823
02:38:01,160 --> 02:38:03,920
Speaker 1: for a living, which was great, but I wanted something

2824
02:38:03,959 --> 02:38:06,560
Speaker 1: more and maybe you know what I mean. So I

2825
02:38:06,600 --> 02:38:09,240
Speaker 1: gave podcasting a try, and I did it with Spreaker

2826
02:38:09,320 --> 02:38:11,600
Speaker 1: from my Heart. I could explain how it works in

2827
02:38:11,640 --> 02:38:14,200
Speaker 1: about ninety seconds, but all you really need to know

2828
02:38:14,280 --> 02:38:16,840
Speaker 1: now is that, in my experience, the AD revenue with

2829
02:38:16,920 --> 02:38:19,200
Speaker 1: spreaker has been three to four times higher than it

2830
02:38:19,200 --> 02:38:21,840
Speaker 1: has been with any other host I've worked with. Now

2831
02:38:21,959 --> 02:38:24,360
Speaker 1: I get to do what I'm passionate about, teach history,

2832
02:38:24,560 --> 02:38:27,600
Speaker 1: but with more freedom and less stress, while still earning

2833
02:38:27,600 --> 02:38:31,000
Speaker 1: a respectable salary. From just getting started and doing the

2834
02:38:31,080 --> 02:38:34,480
Speaker 1: very basic stuff to taking your podcast in whatever direction

2835
02:38:34,480 --> 02:38:36,600
Speaker 1: you want to take it, Speaker has all sorts of

2836
02:38:36,600 --> 02:38:38,840
Speaker 1: great tools. So if you want to turn your passion

2837
02:38:38,879 --> 02:38:41,600
Speaker 1: into a podcast and give this a try, visit speaker

2838
02:38:41,680 --> 02:38:44,960
Speaker 1: dot com. That's sp r e a k e er

2839
02:38:45,280 --> 02:38:47,920
Speaker 1: dot com. Get paid to talk about the things you

2840
02:38:48,000 --> 02:38:58,920
Speaker 1: love with spreaker from my Heart. Welcome to it could

2841
02:38:58,920 --> 02:39:01,480
Speaker 1: happen here a podcast to about how much I Christopher

2842
02:39:01,520 --> 02:39:05,240
Speaker 1: Wong hate the police and specifically the Chicago Police Department.

2843
02:39:05,760 --> 02:39:07,760
Speaker 1: UM and we are bringing you part two of my

2844
02:39:07,800 --> 02:39:12,520
Speaker 1: interview with Chicago journalist Raven about more Crimes of Chicago.

2845
02:39:12,560 --> 02:39:16,080
Speaker 1: Police department, the international in fact, and how the police

2846
02:39:16,120 --> 02:39:19,840
Speaker 1: weaponize racing class lines order to preserve their power enjoy.

2847
02:39:20,120 --> 02:39:22,640
Speaker 1: You know, I spent a lot of time just like

2848
02:39:24,080 --> 02:39:27,720
Speaker 1: in like cops social media spaces, right, and of course

2849
02:39:27,800 --> 02:39:31,840
Speaker 1: it's like rotting my brain, and you know, it's it's

2850
02:39:31,879 --> 02:39:35,920
Speaker 1: honestly just really tough to deal with sometimes. But you

2851
02:39:35,959 --> 02:39:38,920
Speaker 1: know one thing that we see like over and over

2852
02:39:38,959 --> 02:39:41,080
Speaker 1: again if you look at the memes that they share

2853
02:39:41,240 --> 02:39:44,039
Speaker 1: and the the posts that they write on spacebook and

2854
02:39:44,080 --> 02:39:47,960
Speaker 1: all of these things, is it's they s the people

2855
02:39:48,879 --> 02:39:56,360
Speaker 1: as their enemy, right, like they're they're trained the military.

2856
02:39:56,480 --> 02:40:00,560
Speaker 1: The militarization of the police isn't just about the equipment

2857
02:40:00,600 --> 02:40:02,720
Speaker 1: that they have and the money that they have. It's

2858
02:40:02,720 --> 02:40:07,320
Speaker 1: also about their psychology and how they they view themselves

2859
02:40:07,440 --> 02:40:13,440
Speaker 1: as like warriors fighting the bad guys. But because of

2860
02:40:13,640 --> 02:40:17,840
Speaker 1: the nature of policing, the bad guys are literally anyone

2861
02:40:18,200 --> 02:40:21,440
Speaker 1: who isn't complying with what they say. And usually this

2862
02:40:21,520 --> 02:40:27,320
Speaker 1: is like black people, you know, marginalized people, poor people, um.

2863
02:40:27,840 --> 02:40:30,720
Speaker 1: And then there's sort of this like you see a

2864
02:40:30,760 --> 02:40:33,160
Speaker 1: lot of these like memes where they they talk about

2865
02:40:33,200 --> 02:40:38,840
Speaker 1: themselves as like sheep dogs protecting the sheep from the wolves,

2866
02:40:39,920 --> 02:40:43,640
Speaker 1: and yeah, and like the sheep are supposed to be

2867
02:40:43,720 --> 02:40:48,920
Speaker 1: like the innocence, which typically if you if you really

2868
02:40:48,959 --> 02:40:51,000
Speaker 1: go deep into it, it's like in their minds. That's

2869
02:40:51,040 --> 02:40:54,280
Speaker 1: like women and children who are like mostly white, right,

2870
02:40:54,840 --> 02:40:58,959
Speaker 1: Like they think they're protecting like white innocence from like

2871
02:41:00,000 --> 02:41:03,000
Speaker 1: bad guys. And and there are layers to it, right

2872
02:41:03,120 --> 02:41:06,720
Speaker 1: because like obviously it doesn't always work out that way.

2873
02:41:06,800 --> 02:41:09,760
Speaker 1: And you know, there are like poor white people in

2874
02:41:09,879 --> 02:41:12,959
Speaker 1: rural areas who deal with police repression. You know, there

2875
02:41:13,000 --> 02:41:17,520
Speaker 1: are like wealthy black people who get pulled over by

2876
02:41:17,520 --> 02:41:19,920
Speaker 1: the cops just because they're driving will black. Like, there

2877
02:41:19,920 --> 02:41:25,560
Speaker 1: are certainly like layers upon layers here, depending on like

2878
02:41:25,680 --> 02:41:29,240
Speaker 1: class and and just everything. But at the end of

2879
02:41:29,240 --> 02:41:33,959
Speaker 1: the day, like they're training themselves up to be a

2880
02:41:34,000 --> 02:41:41,840
Speaker 1: military fighting the people in invading their spaces, taking over,

2881
02:41:43,600 --> 02:41:48,600
Speaker 1: And the psychology of it is just really really dark too,

2882
02:41:48,640 --> 02:41:54,520
Speaker 1: because you have these people who because because we're sending

2883
02:41:54,560 --> 02:41:59,480
Speaker 1: them into underresourced communities sort of after the fact, after

2884
02:41:59,520 --> 02:42:03,199
Speaker 1: trauma's occurred, after there have been there's been violence, there's

2885
02:42:03,200 --> 02:42:09,840
Speaker 1: been shootings, everyone's poor, you know, whatever, we're sending them

2886
02:42:09,840 --> 02:42:13,920
Speaker 1: into these places where there's just like the most horrible

2887
02:42:13,959 --> 02:42:18,560
Speaker 1: things about poverty and about violence are happening and that's

2888
02:42:18,560 --> 02:42:22,280
Speaker 1: all they're exposed to. So then they end up with

2889
02:42:22,320 --> 02:42:27,000
Speaker 1: PTSD or all of these problems, you know, like the alcoholism, rape,

2890
02:42:27,040 --> 02:42:29,959
Speaker 1: domestic violence. Right, all of these things within the tropic

2891
02:42:30,000 --> 02:42:33,840
Speaker 1: beliefs of force are extremely high. And all of this

2892
02:42:34,000 --> 02:42:38,320
Speaker 1: comes back to because we're treating everything as punishment. We're

2893
02:42:38,320 --> 02:42:40,560
Speaker 1: coming in after the fact. We're not actually treating these

2894
02:42:40,560 --> 02:42:46,000
Speaker 1: problems at the source. We're just sending people in to

2895
02:42:46,000 --> 02:42:49,760
Speaker 1: to manage the chaos after the fact, and then they

2896
02:42:49,879 --> 02:42:54,800
Speaker 1: end up traumatized, they end up enacting more crime and

2897
02:42:54,840 --> 02:42:57,879
Speaker 1: more violence to these communities, and it just becomes the cycle,

2898
02:42:58,879 --> 02:43:02,400
Speaker 1: but no one can get out of. And then it

2899
02:43:02,440 --> 02:43:05,640
Speaker 1: and it comes back to just like defunding the police

2900
02:43:05,680 --> 02:43:10,360
Speaker 1: and and state priorities, Like where are we putting our resources,

2901
02:43:10,400 --> 02:43:12,199
Speaker 1: because if we were putting them in the right place,

2902
02:43:12,840 --> 02:43:14,720
Speaker 1: so many of these things wouldn't be happening in the

2903
02:43:14,760 --> 02:43:17,480
Speaker 1: first place. Yeah, and I think one everything, I think

2904
02:43:17,480 --> 02:43:19,640
Speaker 1: it's it's important to note that we talked about this

2905
02:43:19,720 --> 02:43:23,080
Speaker 1: on our you know, the episodes about the cartels. We

2906
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:25,640
Speaker 1: talked about this on our episodes about the other episodes

2907
02:43:25,640 --> 02:43:28,160
Speaker 1: about Chocolate Police, which is that the other thing that

2908
02:43:28,240 --> 02:43:31,520
Speaker 1: happens is that the Characo police just they you know,

2909
02:43:31,560 --> 02:43:34,000
Speaker 1: they see the drug trade and they go, okay, we're

2910
02:43:34,000 --> 02:43:36,800
Speaker 1: just gonna get in on it, and you know, and

2911
02:43:36,840 --> 02:43:39,680
Speaker 1: the the sort of the combination of these people, these

2912
02:43:40,000 --> 02:43:44,560
Speaker 1: just incredibly violent, armed people with total impunity and an

2913
02:43:44,640 --> 02:43:47,880
Speaker 1: enormous amount of money is that you know, they they

2914
02:43:47,920 --> 02:43:52,600
Speaker 1: they they become themselves just you know, they they become

2915
02:43:52,600 --> 02:43:54,640
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing that they that they were you know,

2916
02:43:55,120 --> 02:43:58,480
Speaker 1: nominally supposed to be fighting. And that has all of

2917
02:43:58,480 --> 02:44:01,680
Speaker 1: these these downstream effects. If you talked about the way

2918
02:44:01,680 --> 02:44:05,320
Speaker 1: that the way that this militarizes basically everything, right, this

2919
02:44:05,320 --> 02:44:07,360
Speaker 1: this militarizes the police just says that, you know, the

2920
02:44:07,440 --> 02:44:09,520
Speaker 1: violence of it has the effect of militarizing like the

2921
02:44:09,959 --> 02:44:13,680
Speaker 1: militarizing everyone else, militarizes the nonside actors, and it just

2922
02:44:13,680 --> 02:44:16,160
Speaker 1: sort of it just keeps rashing up the level of violence.

2923
02:44:16,840 --> 02:44:21,200
Speaker 1: And as long as you keep throwing the state at it,

2924
02:44:21,240 --> 02:44:23,640
Speaker 1: and as long as the state just keeps essentially like

2925
02:44:24,680 --> 02:44:27,280
Speaker 1: going okay, I just okay, we have a drug trade

2926
02:44:27,280 --> 02:44:28,760
Speaker 1: and I'll just got a cut of it. And as

2927
02:44:28,800 --> 02:44:31,640
Speaker 1: long as that keeps happening, like all of the stuff

2928
02:44:31,720 --> 02:44:35,440
Speaker 1: that the cops are you know, nominally there to to

2929
02:44:35,600 --> 02:44:37,920
Speaker 1: deal with, it's just going to keep escalating because the

2930
02:44:38,280 --> 02:44:43,199
Speaker 1: state that like because just because state violence is intensifying

2931
02:44:43,240 --> 02:44:51,120
Speaker 1: and making it worse, right, right, and it's just so

2932
02:44:51,280 --> 02:44:55,640
Speaker 1: like they're so fucking racist. Yeah, like I just can't,

2933
02:44:55,680 --> 02:44:57,720
Speaker 1: I mean, like I don't. We have to we have

2934
02:44:57,760 --> 02:45:00,160
Speaker 1: to keep talking about that because it's just like so

2935
02:45:00,360 --> 02:45:04,280
Speaker 1: much of just like where like where they get their

2936
02:45:04,320 --> 02:45:06,880
Speaker 1: information and how they exchange. Like if you look at

2937
02:45:06,879 --> 02:45:10,680
Speaker 1: these cops social networks and where they're getting their information,

2938
02:45:10,800 --> 02:45:12,800
Speaker 1: and the kinds of things they're saying to each other

2939
02:45:13,120 --> 02:45:19,080
Speaker 1: about black people in Chicago are all so ridiculously wrong

2940
02:45:20,320 --> 02:45:24,440
Speaker 1: because they're just parroting these like cop blogs that they

2941
02:45:24,480 --> 02:45:29,440
Speaker 1: read full of all kinds of just that shit fucking

2942
02:45:29,440 --> 02:45:32,560
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories about like our our black d a or

2943
02:45:32,720 --> 02:45:37,120
Speaker 1: prosecutor excuse me, Kim Fox being like a puppet of

2944
02:45:37,160 --> 02:45:43,120
Speaker 1: George Soros. They literally believe this, and and it's echoed

2945
02:45:43,120 --> 02:45:46,320
Speaker 1: by people like Tucker Carlson, you know, in national media,

2946
02:45:46,360 --> 02:45:50,199
Speaker 1: Like anytime Chicago comes up, you will hear these kinds

2947
02:45:50,200 --> 02:45:54,440
Speaker 1: of just completely off the wall conspiracy theories about like

2948
02:45:55,240 --> 02:46:03,600
Speaker 1: communist BLM an Tifa, Soros funded Kim Fox, like ruining Chicago.

2949
02:46:04,000 --> 02:46:06,440
Speaker 1: And and I'm not like defending Kim Fox. Don't getting wrong.

2950
02:46:06,480 --> 02:46:09,440
Speaker 1: She's still prosecutor, she's still like putting people in jail.

2951
02:46:10,080 --> 02:46:14,360
Speaker 1: But she you know, she was elected because she was

2952
02:46:14,440 --> 02:46:16,720
Speaker 1: to do she was supposed to be this big reformist

2953
02:46:17,920 --> 02:46:21,920
Speaker 1: and and all of that, and so she's become a target.

2954
02:46:21,959 --> 02:46:23,680
Speaker 1: And then she's also become a target with them because

2955
02:46:23,680 --> 02:46:28,840
Speaker 1: she's a black woman, So it's easy for them to

2956
02:46:29,600 --> 02:46:32,359
Speaker 1: to make her into a lightning rod of hate basically,

2957
02:46:33,840 --> 02:46:40,160
Speaker 1: and you know, like they just the dehumanization of of

2958
02:46:40,240 --> 02:46:44,400
Speaker 1: black Chicagoans that you see in these in these Facebook

2959
02:46:44,400 --> 02:46:46,400
Speaker 1: posts that these people are writing and the things that

2960
02:46:46,440 --> 02:46:53,880
Speaker 1: they're tweeting, like it is violently disturbingly racist. And all

2961
02:46:53,920 --> 02:46:57,440
Speaker 1: of that comes back to just how they view themselves

2962
02:46:57,480 --> 02:47:01,080
Speaker 1: as like an occupying army in the communities, Like they

2963
02:47:01,120 --> 02:47:10,160
Speaker 1: don't view themselves as like cooperative partners in helping these communities.

2964
02:47:10,200 --> 02:47:13,640
Speaker 1: Like it's no words there to occupy, We're there to

2965
02:47:13,760 --> 02:47:18,880
Speaker 1: extract resources. We're there to like, you know, benefit off

2966
02:47:18,920 --> 02:47:23,280
Speaker 1: of this gang warfare. If we can you know and

2967
02:47:23,280 --> 02:47:26,360
Speaker 1: and like you mentioned, like if you look at like

2968
02:47:26,640 --> 02:47:30,240
Speaker 1: the corruption and and the things that that have gone

2969
02:47:30,280 --> 02:47:32,720
Speaker 1: on with that, I mean, like I mean that goes

2970
02:47:32,720 --> 02:47:34,600
Speaker 1: back to city council, right. I mean we have we

2971
02:47:34,640 --> 02:47:37,720
Speaker 1: have alder men. We have we have older people who

2972
02:47:37,760 --> 02:47:43,360
Speaker 1: are essentially in bed with the cops, looking for looking

2973
02:47:43,360 --> 02:47:48,320
Speaker 1: out for them and you know, like their dedicated cop alderman.

2974
02:47:48,360 --> 02:47:51,279
Speaker 1: I mean, like all of our Chicago aldermen are older

2975
02:47:51,280 --> 02:47:56,320
Speaker 1: people excuse me, are Democrats by name, But it's like no,

2976
02:47:56,480 --> 02:48:00,480
Speaker 1: we have five or six older people who are repelled wlikins.

2977
02:48:01,160 --> 02:48:04,680
Speaker 1: Like they called themselves Democrats because they wouldn't be able

2978
02:48:04,680 --> 02:48:06,640
Speaker 1: to be elected in Chicago if they didn't. But they

2979
02:48:06,680 --> 02:48:10,959
Speaker 1: are absolutely like cop loving Republicans. You know, they just

2980
02:48:10,959 --> 02:48:13,880
Speaker 1: call themselves Democrats because they like support gay marriage or whatever.

2981
02:48:15,120 --> 02:48:17,960
Speaker 1: Well it's because it's Chicago and you like you can't

2982
02:48:18,040 --> 02:48:21,720
Speaker 1: run it like the like the the the only time

2983
02:48:22,040 --> 02:48:24,520
Speaker 1: a Democrat has ever lost one of these elections was

2984
02:48:25,320 --> 02:48:29,520
Speaker 1: the time a I want blanking on the name of

2985
02:48:29,560 --> 02:48:37,720
Speaker 1: the cult, the time of Larushite accidentally won the primary.

2986
02:48:37,879 --> 02:48:40,080
Speaker 1: Like that that's basically it, Like yeah, I mean, it's

2987
02:48:40,160 --> 02:48:42,480
Speaker 1: it's it's you know this, this is a democratic city,

2988
02:48:42,520 --> 02:48:46,200
Speaker 1: but you know, the democratic city just means incredibly right

2989
02:48:46,200 --> 02:48:51,360
Speaker 1: wing and police, which right, right, Yeah, And when you

2990
02:48:51,400 --> 02:48:56,520
Speaker 1: look at the history of policing in Chicago, you have

2991
02:48:56,640 --> 02:48:59,680
Speaker 1: to go back decades and decades and kind of look

2992
02:48:59,680 --> 02:49:02,840
Speaker 1: at all so to it like where a lot of

2993
02:49:02,879 --> 02:49:09,560
Speaker 1: these cops came from. In the aftermath of like the

2994
02:49:09,680 --> 02:49:13,200
Speaker 1: dissolution of like the official like mafia and like al

2995
02:49:13,240 --> 02:49:17,480
Speaker 1: Capone and all that stuff, you had a lot of

2996
02:49:17,520 --> 02:49:24,120
Speaker 1: working class immigrants from like European communities, like the Polish community,

2997
02:49:24,560 --> 02:49:28,200
Speaker 1: the Irish community, the Italian community, and all of these

2998
02:49:28,240 --> 02:49:32,039
Speaker 1: communities have their own like police associations here, like the

2999
02:49:32,080 --> 02:49:37,200
Speaker 1: Italian American Police Association, the Polish American Police Association, all

3000
02:49:37,240 --> 02:49:40,280
Speaker 1: of these things, and and so like it becomes this

3001
02:49:41,760 --> 02:49:44,400
Speaker 1: being a cop to go back to sort of like

3002
02:49:44,440 --> 02:49:48,959
Speaker 1: the international ties here, being a cop becomes this identity

3003
02:49:49,040 --> 02:49:50,840
Speaker 1: for them and their families. Like a lot of people

3004
02:49:50,840 --> 02:49:54,760
Speaker 1: are cops because their dad was a cop, their grandpa

3005
02:49:54,800 --> 02:49:57,480
Speaker 1: was a cops. Their cousins are cops, their brothers are cops.

3006
02:49:58,879 --> 02:50:04,279
Speaker 1: There's like a family honor sort of in like being

3007
02:50:04,360 --> 02:50:07,280
Speaker 1: a cop, and and a lot of them show, you know,

3008
02:50:07,560 --> 02:50:09,920
Speaker 1: and that that that goes back to why they show

3009
02:50:09,959 --> 02:50:13,279
Speaker 1: so much solidarity too with like cops from other countries

3010
02:50:14,400 --> 02:50:18,439
Speaker 1: is it's like the profession in and of itself is lionized.

3011
02:50:20,200 --> 02:50:25,560
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, you have right now

3012
02:50:25,720 --> 02:50:31,000
Speaker 1: in Chicago, like because of gentrification, because of just like

3013
02:50:31,040 --> 02:50:35,000
Speaker 1: immigration patterns and the way communities have changed. We have

3014
02:50:35,120 --> 02:50:41,000
Speaker 1: these like traditionally Polish Italian communities that feel like they're

3015
02:50:41,000 --> 02:50:50,000
Speaker 1: being encroached upon by mostly like Latin X communities. So

3016
02:50:50,800 --> 02:50:53,920
Speaker 1: we had for example, like you know, the shooting um

3017
02:50:53,959 --> 02:50:58,039
Speaker 1: the murder of Anthony Alvarez up on up on the

3018
02:50:58,080 --> 02:51:00,640
Speaker 1: northwest side, the far northwest side of Chicago last year,

3019
02:51:02,320 --> 02:51:05,039
Speaker 1: and in the aftermath of that, we saw a lot

3020
02:51:05,200 --> 02:51:11,480
Speaker 1: of like pension between the traditional like Polish Polish American

3021
02:51:11,520 --> 02:51:14,520
Speaker 1: community up there and then the new wave of like

3022
02:51:15,640 --> 02:51:20,280
Speaker 1: Latin X immigrants um. And the problem is a lot

3023
02:51:20,280 --> 02:51:22,160
Speaker 1: of the people in the Polish community up there have

3024
02:51:22,400 --> 02:51:27,160
Speaker 1: family and relatives who are cops. So we had like

3025
02:51:27,480 --> 02:51:31,960
Speaker 1: cops trashing the memorial, you know, to the s Anthony Alvarez.

3026
02:51:32,120 --> 02:51:35,959
Speaker 1: We had like Polish biker gangs like riding by the

3027
02:51:36,040 --> 02:51:39,800
Speaker 1: rallies trying to like intimidate people and it all comes

3028
02:51:39,800 --> 02:51:42,800
Speaker 1: back to like white supremacy and just straight up racism, right.

3029
02:51:42,879 --> 02:51:49,160
Speaker 1: Like there's another example of that with like the the

3030
02:51:49,400 --> 02:51:55,680
Speaker 1: Columbus statue that was sent here by Bussolini that eventually, yes,

3031
02:51:56,240 --> 02:51:58,720
Speaker 1: one of the like one of the I guess you'd

3032
02:51:58,760 --> 02:52:01,800
Speaker 1: call it the second wave of the upraising in Chicago

3033
02:52:02,240 --> 02:52:07,360
Speaker 1: was a bunch of people, like enormous members of people

3034
02:52:07,360 --> 02:52:09,840
Speaker 1: throwing things at cops who were attempting to defend the statue.

3035
02:52:10,560 --> 02:52:13,600
Speaker 1: And this was like a like the Italian like Americans

3036
02:52:13,640 --> 02:52:15,680
Speaker 1: like the right way, and we got like extremely mad

3037
02:52:15,720 --> 02:52:19,080
Speaker 1: about this, and there was all of this sort of

3038
02:52:20,879 --> 02:52:24,920
Speaker 1: know there's all the sort of tension between between these

3039
02:52:25,000 --> 02:52:29,480
Speaker 1: these different community. Yeah, and some of that comes back

3040
02:52:29,520 --> 02:52:35,879
Speaker 1: to like also, um, the construction of of the inter states. Right,

3041
02:52:36,040 --> 02:52:38,800
Speaker 1: so like in the I don't know when they started

3042
02:52:38,840 --> 02:52:41,000
Speaker 1: building the highways down by U. I c. Is like

3043
02:52:41,120 --> 02:52:43,840
Speaker 1: in the fifties of the sixties, right, you had this

3044
02:52:43,920 --> 02:52:48,120
Speaker 1: like traditional Italian American community down there by University of

3045
02:52:48,160 --> 02:52:53,520
Speaker 1: Illinois Chicago and like on Taylor Street, and then people

3046
02:52:53,560 --> 02:52:57,760
Speaker 1: built the highway and it like funked up a bunch

3047
02:52:57,800 --> 02:52:59,840
Speaker 1: of ships. You know, some people had to sell their

3048
02:52:59,840 --> 02:53:03,920
Speaker 1: home Holmes. You know, the traditional neighborhood was like destroyed

3049
02:53:03,959 --> 02:53:08,440
Speaker 1: all of these things, and then this university is built

3050
02:53:09,120 --> 02:53:12,560
Speaker 1: and that coincides with that, and so you end up

3051
02:53:12,560 --> 02:53:17,640
Speaker 1: getting a lot of like old school racist Italian getting

3052
02:53:17,720 --> 02:53:22,400
Speaker 1: piste at the students and at the school and everything

3053
02:53:22,440 --> 02:53:26,280
Speaker 1: in the aftermath. And it's a really really multicultural school.

3054
02:53:26,320 --> 02:53:27,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with you I see,

3055
02:53:28,680 --> 02:53:32,760
Speaker 1: but it's like, yeah, so U I see has like

3056
02:53:33,000 --> 02:53:38,680
Speaker 1: one of the largest immigrant student population student bodies like

3057
02:53:38,760 --> 02:53:42,760
Speaker 1: in the country. Um, it's just a very very diverse school.

3058
02:53:42,879 --> 02:53:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure white people are actually a minority if

3059
02:53:46,200 --> 02:53:49,320
Speaker 1: you look at like the demographics of just like how

3060
02:53:49,360 --> 02:53:52,360
Speaker 1: people identify in student surveys. U I s A is

3061
02:53:52,440 --> 02:53:55,360
Speaker 1: the University of Illinois and Chicago. Uh yeah, it's a

3062
02:53:55,480 --> 02:53:58,600
Speaker 1: one of the big universities in the city. Yeah, just

3063
02:53:58,680 --> 02:54:03,640
Speaker 1: for the non Chicago Yeah yeah, different, there's a different one,

3064
02:54:03,760 --> 02:54:07,360
Speaker 1: University of Chicago. That's like that was all I went to,

3065
02:54:08,600 --> 02:54:13,200
Speaker 1: which is first, they've got their whole thing going on

3066
02:54:13,280 --> 02:54:16,440
Speaker 1: because their campus police force is one of the largest

3067
02:54:16,680 --> 02:54:19,000
Speaker 1: private police forces in the world. Yeah, and you know,

3068
02:54:19,000 --> 02:54:20,480
Speaker 1: I guess we're talking about that a little bit too.

3069
02:54:20,480 --> 02:54:23,280
Speaker 1: Because that's this sort of like it's kind of horrible

3070
02:54:23,320 --> 02:54:26,440
Speaker 1: bind where it's like, yeah, so it's that that police

3071
02:54:26,440 --> 02:54:28,200
Speaker 1: force is one of the largest police forces in the world.

3072
02:54:28,320 --> 02:54:30,959
Speaker 1: It has shot students, it has shot people who are

3073
02:54:31,000 --> 02:54:35,000
Speaker 1: not students. It does a bunch of horrible things. But

3074
02:54:35,080 --> 02:54:38,000
Speaker 1: then you know, some you're there's there's this kind of trap, right,

3075
02:54:38,040 --> 02:54:40,119
Speaker 1: because like one of one of the things that happens

3076
02:54:40,200 --> 02:54:42,040
Speaker 1: is like, well, okay, so you get rid of the

3077
02:54:42,120 --> 02:54:43,920
Speaker 1: u cp D, right, and then then you know, okay,

3078
02:54:43,920 --> 02:54:45,720
Speaker 1: so they're going to bring the Chicago Police Apartment in

3079
02:54:45,760 --> 02:54:49,640
Speaker 1: and it's like the Chica Police Apartment are like one

3080
02:54:49,680 --> 02:54:52,800
Speaker 1: of the few institutions in the world that's worse than

3081
02:54:52,959 --> 02:54:56,480
Speaker 1: like the regular UCPD, and it's you know, and that

3082
02:54:56,560 --> 02:54:57,680
Speaker 1: was that was one of the things that that was

3083
02:54:57,720 --> 02:55:02,320
Speaker 1: really inspiring, um in was just yeah, the way that

3084
02:55:02,360 --> 02:55:07,200
Speaker 1: the abolished the Chicago Police Department like movement was sort

3085
02:55:07,240 --> 02:55:10,600
Speaker 1: of like unfolded in this broader just this broader potential

3086
02:55:10,680 --> 02:55:13,880
Speaker 1: just abolished chiccoco the Chicago police in general. But it's

3087
02:55:13,879 --> 02:55:15,680
Speaker 1: this weird thing where it's like you have these you

3088
02:55:15,720 --> 02:55:18,840
Speaker 1: have these occupation zones, and it's like that that that

3089
02:55:19,000 --> 02:55:20,760
Speaker 1: part of the South Side and then the other The

3090
02:55:20,840 --> 02:55:23,640
Speaker 1: other thing I think that people don't understand about Chicago

3091
02:55:23,680 --> 02:55:27,800
Speaker 1: Police Department is that they have an absolutely enormous range

3092
02:55:27,879 --> 02:55:30,640
Speaker 1: that they patrol. Right that that doesn't include that it's way,

3093
02:55:30,680 --> 02:55:32,720
Speaker 1: it goes way off campus like they have. They have

3094
02:55:32,760 --> 02:55:36,120
Speaker 1: an absolutely enormous range of things they conclude and they

3095
02:55:36,200 --> 02:55:39,760
Speaker 1: do things like, uh, you know, they'll they'll just like

3096
02:55:39,760 --> 02:55:42,960
Speaker 1: like like lock down the entire campus and they'll just

3097
02:55:42,959 --> 02:55:45,279
Speaker 1: do this just happen because there they'll be like chasing

3098
02:55:45,320 --> 02:55:47,680
Speaker 1: someone who like like one of one of the one

3099
02:55:47,720 --> 02:55:50,480
Speaker 1: of the times when I was there, someone like they

3100
02:55:50,600 --> 02:55:53,960
Speaker 1: like stolen something from like a video game store, and

3101
02:55:54,160 --> 02:55:56,879
Speaker 1: the whole campus got locked down, like the cops are

3102
02:55:56,920 --> 02:55:59,080
Speaker 1: screaming and every want to stay in the buildings, like

3103
02:56:00,400 --> 02:56:02,039
Speaker 1: and they just like, you know, they had this like

3104
02:56:02,480 --> 02:56:05,400
Speaker 1: enormous numbers of cops just sort of like swarmed through

3105
02:56:05,440 --> 02:56:09,840
Speaker 1: the entire the entire campus for like an hour. And

3106
02:56:09,879 --> 02:56:12,360
Speaker 1: this is just like happens. I mean, there's cops everywhere.

3107
02:56:12,400 --> 02:56:15,200
Speaker 1: They just they do stuff like that, and there's this

3108
02:56:15,240 --> 02:56:17,880
Speaker 1: whole you know, and and but this is one of

3109
02:56:17,920 --> 02:56:20,720
Speaker 1: the other things where you get these tensions because so

3110
02:56:21,120 --> 02:56:26,039
Speaker 1: you Chicago, the University of Chicago also has like it's

3111
02:56:26,040 --> 02:56:28,600
Speaker 1: not as large, but also has like a like it

3112
02:56:28,600 --> 02:56:33,640
Speaker 1: also has like a pretty large international student immigrant like population.

3113
02:56:33,879 --> 02:56:37,440
Speaker 1: And there was this, uh there was there was there

3114
02:56:37,440 --> 02:56:39,400
Speaker 1: was a Chinese national student who got shot, who got

3115
02:56:39,400 --> 02:56:43,480
Speaker 1: shot a robbery last year, and that was a huge

3116
02:56:43,680 --> 02:56:46,480
Speaker 1: I think that was last year. Yeah that was yeah,

3117
02:56:46,520 --> 02:56:50,240
Speaker 1: it wasn't yeah, yeah, And that turned into a huge

3118
02:56:50,240 --> 02:56:51,879
Speaker 1: thing where you had these sudden you know, because we

3119
02:56:52,000 --> 02:56:54,400
Speaker 1: had the anti police protests, but then suddenly there was

3120
02:56:54,440 --> 02:56:57,760
Speaker 1: this huge wing of like basically the right wing faculty,

3121
02:56:57,879 --> 02:57:01,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of just like absolutely reactionary, like extremely rich

3122
02:57:02,040 --> 02:57:07,160
Speaker 1: CCP scions and like this this sort of like nucleus

3123
02:57:07,200 --> 02:57:10,800
Speaker 1: of of the like like people like people in the

3124
02:57:10,840 --> 02:57:13,920
Speaker 1: right wing law faculty, like the ECON people who suddenly

3125
02:57:13,959 --> 02:57:15,920
Speaker 1: had this like giant thing that was like it was,

3126
02:57:16,000 --> 02:57:18,119
Speaker 1: it was. It was a sort of microcosm of of

3127
02:57:18,120 --> 02:57:22,680
Speaker 1: of the broader sort of like turn against the anti

3128
02:57:22,720 --> 02:57:24,720
Speaker 1: police movements by using crime. And they had this whole

3129
02:57:24,720 --> 02:57:26,200
Speaker 1: thing is that we need to keep the campus safe,

3130
02:57:26,240 --> 02:57:28,120
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, we need to give you the

3131
02:57:28,160 --> 02:57:30,240
Speaker 1: ucp D the ability to lead to to go off

3132
02:57:30,240 --> 02:57:31,880
Speaker 1: of campus, which you know, they already have there, like

3133
02:57:31,920 --> 02:57:33,160
Speaker 1: we need to get the more money, we need to

3134
02:57:33,200 --> 02:57:35,800
Speaker 1: have more cops everywhere, and it was just and it's

3135
02:57:35,840 --> 02:57:39,320
Speaker 1: it's just this sort of like you get this horrible,

3136
02:57:39,320 --> 02:57:41,959
Speaker 1: horrible sort of pendulum effect where like you get this

3137
02:57:42,080 --> 02:57:47,520
Speaker 1: violence and then you know, people like the like the

3138
02:57:47,520 --> 02:57:49,920
Speaker 1: the rights response to that violence is just to create

3139
02:57:49,959 --> 02:57:52,360
Speaker 1: is you know, just descended more cops to create more violence,

3140
02:57:52,800 --> 02:57:55,240
Speaker 1: and it just keeps escalating and keep escalating, and it's

3141
02:57:55,320 --> 02:57:57,080
Speaker 1: it's and then you know, and then there's there's a

3142
02:57:57,120 --> 02:58:01,160
Speaker 1: sort of dynamic of this right where rich students at

3143
02:58:01,200 --> 02:58:03,560
Speaker 1: the unniversary of Chicago, And this is so some extent

3144
02:58:03,760 --> 02:58:06,280
Speaker 1: this is it's mostly a class embraced thing, but it's

3145
02:58:06,280 --> 02:58:09,720
Speaker 1: not entirely. But like people who go there just like

3146
02:58:10,320 --> 02:58:14,080
Speaker 1: have this like incredible fear of literally everyone around them.

3147
02:58:14,120 --> 02:58:18,000
Speaker 1: It's like they turned to many cops. Like there are

3148
02:58:18,000 --> 02:58:20,480
Speaker 1: people who are screaming about how like just the red

3149
02:58:20,560 --> 02:58:22,680
Speaker 1: line is not safe at night. And I was like

3150
02:58:22,680 --> 02:58:27,080
Speaker 1: I have literally like I have walked like thirty blocks

3151
02:58:27,160 --> 02:58:29,640
Speaker 1: back home at two in the morning and been completely fine.

3152
02:58:30,000 --> 02:58:32,840
Speaker 1: Like you guys are just cowards, but and you know

3153
02:58:32,879 --> 02:58:34,920
Speaker 1: your your cowards and extreme racist but like yeah, like

3154
02:58:34,920 --> 02:58:37,040
Speaker 1: all all all of these sort of factors blend together

3155
02:58:37,080 --> 02:58:39,360
Speaker 1: and you get these you get these coalitions of of

3156
02:58:39,440 --> 02:58:42,120
Speaker 1: these these right wing pro police people who want to

3157
02:58:42,200 --> 02:58:44,880
Speaker 1: just not not just like you know, not not just

3158
02:58:44,920 --> 02:58:46,920
Speaker 1: support the police, but want to continue to expand it

3159
02:58:46,920 --> 02:58:48,960
Speaker 1: so they can feel safe. And it's like you're not,

3160
02:58:49,800 --> 02:58:51,720
Speaker 1: you're not even in danger, but they have they have

3161
02:58:51,800 --> 02:58:54,600
Speaker 1: they have the same sort of like this whole town

3162
02:58:54,680 --> 02:58:57,240
Speaker 1: is trying to kill us, like racist cop rand mentality,

3163
02:58:57,320 --> 02:58:58,840
Speaker 1: and yeah, sorry, this is this is this is this

3164
02:58:58,879 --> 02:59:03,640
Speaker 1: has been being upset about this because I feel you

3165
02:59:03,680 --> 02:59:07,000
Speaker 1: and it's like it's and but it relates back to

3166
02:59:07,040 --> 02:59:10,120
Speaker 1: kind of like campus policing in general and kind of

3167
02:59:10,160 --> 02:59:13,800
Speaker 1: why it exists, which is that a lot of colleges,

3168
02:59:14,600 --> 02:59:16,240
Speaker 1: I mean not all of them. It depends on where

3169
02:59:16,240 --> 02:59:19,760
Speaker 1: you are, but like some colleges, especially in like large

3170
02:59:19,840 --> 02:59:23,480
Speaker 1: urban areas, you know, are we're built in the middle

3171
02:59:23,600 --> 02:59:31,520
Speaker 1: of like largely black communities. Yeah, and because the land

3172
02:59:31,600 --> 02:59:35,959
Speaker 1: was cheaper to buy, you know, there are reasons why necessarily,

3173
02:59:36,040 --> 02:59:38,920
Speaker 1: like they're built in these spaces, and so the campus

3174
02:59:38,959 --> 02:59:43,720
Speaker 1: police departments function as just a way to like keep

3175
02:59:43,800 --> 02:59:47,800
Speaker 1: the students isolated from the community, like it's making a

3176
02:59:47,800 --> 02:59:52,200
Speaker 1: community within a community. It's making this little enclave. And

3177
02:59:52,240 --> 02:59:56,840
Speaker 1: then of course people are are then going to view

3178
02:59:56,920 --> 03:00:01,840
Speaker 1: anyone outside of that enclave with like racist suspicion. Right,

3179
03:00:01,959 --> 03:00:05,959
Speaker 1: And if you have immigrant students who may or may

3180
03:00:05,959 --> 03:00:08,320
Speaker 1: not be wealthy, it's a punklem where they come from.

3181
03:00:08,360 --> 03:00:10,640
Speaker 1: But UFC has like a lot of as far as

3182
03:00:10,680 --> 03:00:15,160
Speaker 1: I am aware, like wealthy international students. And they might

3183
03:00:15,200 --> 03:00:19,080
Speaker 1: be coming from countries where like there aren't any black

3184
03:00:19,120 --> 03:00:23,800
Speaker 1: people or there aren't very many. And just because they're

3185
03:00:23,840 --> 03:00:27,360
Speaker 1: they're coming from like this country doesn't necessarily mean that

3186
03:00:27,440 --> 03:00:31,120
Speaker 1: they like our left wing. So they they're coming into

3187
03:00:31,160 --> 03:00:34,080
Speaker 1: these communities, you know, with not a lot of experience,

3188
03:00:34,400 --> 03:00:37,960
Speaker 1: just sort of around people who look different from them,

3189
03:00:38,000 --> 03:00:40,000
Speaker 1: and so they're going to be of course looking to

3190
03:00:40,240 --> 03:00:46,360
Speaker 1: like these police figures than to quote protect them. But

3191
03:00:46,360 --> 03:00:48,480
Speaker 1: but to go back to it, it's like, Okay, well,

3192
03:00:48,959 --> 03:00:52,200
Speaker 1: if if you are feeling unsafe on the train at night,

3193
03:00:52,879 --> 03:00:59,360
Speaker 1: for example, why why isn't the train safe? Like why

3194
03:00:59,400 --> 03:01:05,240
Speaker 1: are people using it as you know shelter? Why are

3195
03:01:05,240 --> 03:01:07,840
Speaker 1: people doing drugs on the train? Like why is there

3196
03:01:07,920 --> 03:01:11,560
Speaker 1: violence happening? And that just comes back to again, like

3197
03:01:11,800 --> 03:01:16,760
Speaker 1: we're not actually addressing the route problems by just adding

3198
03:01:16,760 --> 03:01:19,480
Speaker 1: more police. And I will say, like I think, I

3199
03:01:19,520 --> 03:01:21,800
Speaker 1: think again, Like the other thing that's happening here is

3200
03:01:21,840 --> 03:01:26,280
Speaker 1: really just the University of Chicago, like is a place

3201
03:01:26,320 --> 03:01:31,280
Speaker 1: to which the world's ladish is transplanted. And yeah, you

3202
03:01:31,560 --> 03:01:34,400
Speaker 1: can see this like very clearly along because yeah, like

3203
03:01:34,560 --> 03:01:39,920
Speaker 1: there is the wealth gap between like between poor international

3204
03:01:39,920 --> 03:01:42,680
Speaker 1: students of Richard national students is like it's it's the

3205
03:01:42,760 --> 03:01:45,720
Speaker 1: largest single wealth gap in like in this in the

3206
03:01:45,840 --> 03:01:50,600
Speaker 1: entire university. It's it's unbelievable. Um and you know, and

3207
03:01:50,800 --> 03:01:52,520
Speaker 1: you could you could just you can watch it playing

3208
03:01:52,560 --> 03:01:54,400
Speaker 1: down on class lines in a place down other lines

3209
03:01:54,480 --> 03:01:57,880
Speaker 1: right where you have like like you know, like yeah

3210
03:01:58,040 --> 03:02:01,160
Speaker 1: you have like you have both we have students from

3211
03:02:01,200 --> 03:02:03,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, you have China, students from Vietnam, and

3212
03:02:03,440 --> 03:02:06,400
Speaker 1: like one of them will be trans and you know

3213
03:02:06,600 --> 03:02:11,080
Speaker 1: it turns yeah, it's like oh hey, look like yeah,

3214
03:02:11,160 --> 03:02:12,520
Speaker 1: like when when when you have like when you have

3215
03:02:12,520 --> 03:02:15,280
Speaker 1: a Chinese trans student rights, like yeah, they're there. They

3216
03:02:15,720 --> 03:02:20,560
Speaker 1: the people who back home had have experienced depression in

3217
03:02:20,640 --> 03:02:27,160
Speaker 1: various ways, are consistently like consistently um or like consistently

3218
03:02:27,160 --> 03:02:31,240
Speaker 1: anti police and consistently like significantly less bad about this stuff.

3219
03:02:31,240 --> 03:02:34,720
Speaker 1: It's it's in my experience, it's it's very much. Is

3220
03:02:34,879 --> 03:02:38,240
Speaker 1: just you have this sort of transplanted like you have

3221
03:02:38,280 --> 03:02:40,040
Speaker 1: the short of transplanted elief and by the countries to

3222
03:02:40,040 --> 03:02:41,680
Speaker 1: come to the University of Chicago so they can you know,

3223
03:02:41,680 --> 03:02:43,880
Speaker 1: study economics and go back to their own countries and

3224
03:02:43,920 --> 03:02:47,800
Speaker 1: like continue to like rob their own populations. And those

3225
03:02:47,840 --> 03:02:50,880
Speaker 1: people are the ones who are doing this stuff. And

3226
03:02:50,879 --> 03:02:54,360
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it's you see a lot of

3227
03:02:54,440 --> 03:02:59,560
Speaker 1: kind of like this like I think really misguided like

3228
03:03:00,000 --> 03:03:02,160
Speaker 1: anti racism. That's like, well, okay, we have to take

3229
03:03:02,240 --> 03:03:05,120
Speaker 1: the security concerns of of of these these of of

3230
03:03:05,160 --> 03:03:08,680
Speaker 1: Asian people seriously. It's like these are this is this

3231
03:03:08,760 --> 03:03:10,920
Speaker 1: is the Chinese ruling class, this is the this like

3232
03:03:11,360 --> 03:03:13,600
Speaker 1: you don't need to take these people's concerns seriously. They

3233
03:03:13,640 --> 03:03:16,520
Speaker 1: are finatally they're ferocious right wingers who just read highatt

3234
03:03:16,600 --> 03:03:20,959
Speaker 1: for the first time. Like you guys, these these are

3235
03:03:21,000 --> 03:03:22,840
Speaker 1: these are not the same people as the people who

3236
03:03:22,879 --> 03:03:27,920
Speaker 1: are suffering under the right right. And we saw that.

3237
03:03:28,040 --> 03:03:30,520
Speaker 1: We saw that too with like the big wave of

3238
03:03:30,520 --> 03:03:34,400
Speaker 1: of stop Asian hate protests here last year where we

3239
03:03:34,480 --> 03:03:39,600
Speaker 1: had like this big rally down in China Town, UM

3240
03:03:39,720 --> 03:03:42,520
Speaker 1: with like a huge, huge number, like hundreds of people

3241
03:03:42,560 --> 03:03:44,959
Speaker 1: from the community came out and and you had a

3242
03:03:44,959 --> 03:03:49,720
Speaker 1: lot of younger people who very much had like you know,

3243
03:03:50,640 --> 03:03:54,240
Speaker 1: defund the police kind of sentiments. But then you had

3244
03:03:54,320 --> 03:03:57,840
Speaker 1: we had like police representatives speaking at the rally, yeah,

3245
03:03:57,879 --> 03:04:01,920
Speaker 1: about how they were going to make like Chicago safer

3246
03:04:02,000 --> 03:04:05,879
Speaker 1: for Asian people. It's like this stuff like it makes

3247
03:04:05,920 --> 03:04:09,520
Speaker 1: me so angry, like CPT yeah, no, it was. It

3248
03:04:09,600 --> 03:04:12,600
Speaker 1: was regular CPD, Like I I'm Chinese. They almost killed

3249
03:04:12,600 --> 03:04:17,080
Speaker 1: me on campus. Like these people like they're not these

3250
03:04:17,200 --> 03:04:19,760
Speaker 1: these these they they're like the police don't keep us safe.

3251
03:04:19,760 --> 03:04:21,320
Speaker 1: But like you know, there's been this, there's been this

3252
03:04:21,360 --> 03:04:24,400
Speaker 1: incredible weaponization of of the Asian American community. Like you

3253
03:04:24,440 --> 03:04:26,280
Speaker 1: see this, you see this in Chinatown. There's there's been

3254
03:04:26,320 --> 03:04:29,840
Speaker 1: this like that. There's like China Town is like this

3255
03:04:29,920 --> 03:04:32,200
Speaker 1: is different. Even in the last like like three or

3256
03:04:32,240 --> 03:04:37,360
Speaker 1: four years, has turned into this just like incredibly right wing.

3257
03:04:37,560 --> 03:04:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean it's not everyone, but like you see like

3258
03:04:40,320 --> 03:04:42,400
Speaker 1: they're they're like I like there there's there's a there's

3259
03:04:42,400 --> 03:04:45,360
Speaker 1: there's there's a bench in uh in Chicago in front

3260
03:04:45,360 --> 03:04:48,240
Speaker 1: of the library right that had they have these tables

3261
03:04:48,520 --> 03:04:51,120
Speaker 1: and the tables have an engraved plaque on them that

3262
03:04:51,200 --> 03:04:53,400
Speaker 1: says no loiter ring, and that says we will call

3263
03:04:53,440 --> 03:04:54,879
Speaker 1: the police on you if you loiter. That this is

3264
03:04:54,920 --> 03:04:59,120
Speaker 1: outside of the library. Like it's yeah, there's they have

3265
03:04:59,160 --> 03:05:01,440
Speaker 1: this sort of like increa just this incredibly right wing

3266
03:05:01,520 --> 03:05:05,760
Speaker 1: like anti anti like anti like homeless people campaign that's happening,

3267
03:05:06,480 --> 03:05:08,560
Speaker 1: and it's it's I don't know, it's it's one of

3268
03:05:08,879 --> 03:05:13,160
Speaker 1: just the most depressing things I've seen here because you have,

3269
03:05:13,400 --> 03:05:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, you have the Chamber of Commerce is to

3270
03:05:15,480 --> 03:05:18,000
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, as the most powerful political

3271
03:05:18,000 --> 03:05:21,879
Speaker 1: force in a lot of these communities, and like those

3272
03:05:21,879 --> 03:05:25,119
Speaker 1: people's are right wingers and they just they they don't

3273
03:05:25,160 --> 03:05:29,039
Speaker 1: have the same interests as like the rest of the Asia,

3274
03:05:29,040 --> 03:05:31,480
Speaker 1: of the Asian American community, and it, you know, and

3275
03:05:31,600 --> 03:05:34,360
Speaker 1: it gets you get this horrible, horrible thing, which is

3276
03:05:34,400 --> 03:05:37,400
Speaker 1: what was happening on the USA campus, which is like

3277
03:05:37,720 --> 03:05:41,320
Speaker 1: essentially the right wing like pitting the right wings like

3278
03:05:41,360 --> 03:05:45,160
Speaker 1: just just pitting the like basically basically like pitting Asians

3279
03:05:45,160 --> 03:05:53,560
Speaker 1: against black people. And it's horrible and it it just

3280
03:05:53,600 --> 03:05:56,800
Speaker 1: comes back to like who who is benefiting from this?

3281
03:05:57,120 --> 03:06:01,879
Speaker 1: Like who when we when we have immigrant communities or

3282
03:06:01,920 --> 03:06:08,520
Speaker 1: nonimmigrant communities, you know, like being upset with other communities,

3283
03:06:09,879 --> 03:06:12,279
Speaker 1: What are the greater forces here that are like benefiting

3284
03:06:12,320 --> 03:06:15,280
Speaker 1: from that sort of like infighting. And it's always like

3285
03:06:15,400 --> 03:06:19,959
Speaker 1: the fascist cops who who ultimately come out of the

3286
03:06:20,000 --> 03:06:24,320
Speaker 1: top there because if they can keep the people fighting

3287
03:06:24,360 --> 03:06:30,840
Speaker 1: amongst themselves, or they can stoke prejudice and racism between

3288
03:06:30,879 --> 03:06:34,000
Speaker 1: the people, you know, they can then come in and

3289
03:06:35,040 --> 03:06:39,600
Speaker 1: scoop up resources. And when you look at like a

3290
03:06:39,680 --> 03:06:43,600
Speaker 1: school like University of Chicago, they just have a massive,

3291
03:06:44,640 --> 03:06:47,720
Speaker 1: massive amount of money, right, Like the resources there are

3292
03:06:47,800 --> 03:06:54,200
Speaker 1: just unbelievable. And so of course you're going to have

3293
03:06:54,360 --> 03:06:58,480
Speaker 1: people in the community who are resentful of that, who

3294
03:06:58,520 --> 03:07:03,120
Speaker 1: are upset about that because like they don't have affordable housing,

3295
03:07:03,680 --> 03:07:08,360
Speaker 1: they don't have good jobs, like they're trying to make

3296
03:07:08,360 --> 03:07:14,000
Speaker 1: a living and keep their kids safe, and here's this

3297
03:07:14,120 --> 03:07:18,040
Speaker 1: like university in the middle of their neighborhood with all

3298
03:07:18,080 --> 03:07:22,680
Speaker 1: of this money. And wow, I'm so amazed. I'm just

3299
03:07:22,720 --> 03:07:25,840
Speaker 1: so happy that like somebody's doing construction right now outside

3300
03:07:25,840 --> 03:07:30,680
Speaker 1: my apartment. Thank you for this timing I'm so glad

3301
03:07:30,680 --> 03:07:34,160
Speaker 1: about the um. But but essentially, like you know, you

3302
03:07:35,000 --> 03:07:38,840
Speaker 1: they the students, the students end up being a scapegoat

3303
03:07:38,920 --> 03:07:42,640
Speaker 1: for all of their like all the communities like justified

3304
03:07:42,720 --> 03:07:48,040
Speaker 1: fears about what's going on right justified. They're justified in

3305
03:07:48,120 --> 03:07:50,080
Speaker 1: being upset that they don't have these resources. But it's

3306
03:07:50,080 --> 03:07:54,080
Speaker 1: not necessarily like the individual student. Yeah, and and there's

3307
03:07:54,160 --> 03:07:56,800
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of really good right right before.

3308
03:07:57,040 --> 03:08:00,320
Speaker 1: One of the things that was happening in I part

3309
03:08:00,640 --> 03:08:02,120
Speaker 1: right before I got there, it was there was this

3310
03:08:02,240 --> 03:08:06,400
Speaker 1: huge campaign basically there wasn't a level one trauma center

3311
03:08:06,760 --> 03:08:09,039
Speaker 1: like on this outside, and so you know, if you

3312
03:08:09,040 --> 03:08:11,520
Speaker 1: get shot, right, they have to like take you in

3313
03:08:11,520 --> 03:08:13,520
Speaker 1: a helicopter to the north side to a hospital there,

3314
03:08:13,560 --> 03:08:15,600
Speaker 1: and you know, in that time, like there's a good

3315
03:08:15,640 --> 03:08:18,040
Speaker 1: chance you're gonna die. And there had there had been one,

3316
03:08:18,080 --> 03:08:19,840
Speaker 1: but it got shut down because it wasn't making any money.

3317
03:08:20,280 --> 03:08:23,560
Speaker 1: And so you know, there was this huge, uh community

3318
03:08:23,560 --> 03:08:26,200
Speaker 1: student campaign to like to force the university to open

3319
03:08:26,200 --> 03:08:28,280
Speaker 1: one of these trauma centers. And so I think and

3320
03:08:28,480 --> 03:08:32,240
Speaker 1: I think it's important that like we don't have to

3321
03:08:32,320 --> 03:08:35,320
Speaker 1: fight each other like that. That's not a thing that

3322
03:08:35,600 --> 03:08:38,360
Speaker 1: you know, like yeah, like I think I think like

3323
03:08:38,480 --> 03:08:43,119
Speaker 1: that university, I I don't think it should continue to exist.

3324
03:08:43,160 --> 03:08:45,760
Speaker 1: I think at the very least it should be like

3325
03:08:46,400 --> 03:08:49,360
Speaker 1: taking out of the community control. But who but like yeah,

3326
03:08:49,400 --> 03:08:51,280
Speaker 1: like you know, for for the people who are there,

3327
03:08:51,280 --> 03:08:53,280
Speaker 1: and you know, I think like for for the Asian

3328
03:08:53,280 --> 03:08:56,000
Speaker 1: Americans listening to this, and for for for people who

3329
03:08:56,000 --> 03:08:59,000
Speaker 1: are students like you, you do not have to be

3330
03:08:59,040 --> 03:09:01,400
Speaker 1: the weapon of the cops. You don't. You can you

3331
03:09:01,440 --> 03:09:04,560
Speaker 1: can work together and and and when you do that,

3332
03:09:04,920 --> 03:09:06,640
Speaker 1: you can win and you you can win. You can

3333
03:09:06,640 --> 03:09:11,520
Speaker 1: win like really incredibly tangible games for the community, and

3334
03:09:11,560 --> 03:09:16,199
Speaker 1: you can save people's lives, you know it also outside

3335
03:09:16,200 --> 03:09:20,080
Speaker 1: of campus, same deal with Chicago police, right, Like, we

3336
03:09:20,120 --> 03:09:25,240
Speaker 1: don't need to have the Eastern European communities fighting the

3337
03:09:25,320 --> 03:09:28,640
Speaker 1: Latino communities fighting the Black communities. Like we don't need

3338
03:09:28,680 --> 03:09:34,039
Speaker 1: to have these like all of these communities just like

3339
03:09:34,160 --> 03:09:37,400
Speaker 1: fighting each other instead of like the actual oppressive forces

3340
03:09:37,879 --> 03:09:44,320
Speaker 1: at the top. Um. But you know, right now we're

3341
03:09:44,360 --> 03:09:48,320
Speaker 1: at like this kind of I don't know, I guess

3342
03:09:48,920 --> 03:09:53,520
Speaker 1: tipping point. I think where either people start to show

3343
03:09:53,560 --> 03:09:58,640
Speaker 1: solidarity or we're fucked. Like there are massive and not

3344
03:09:58,800 --> 03:10:01,720
Speaker 1: to get like super are existential with you, but like

3345
03:10:02,360 --> 03:10:08,720
Speaker 1: there are massive, massive forces right now, right wing forces

3346
03:10:08,879 --> 03:10:14,119
Speaker 1: trying to benefit off of all of this factionalization, and

3347
03:10:14,280 --> 03:10:22,160
Speaker 1: as we see tanks rolling into Ukraine, like that's this

3348
03:10:22,240 --> 03:10:26,440
Speaker 1: is a global phenomenon. It's not just happening at home.

3349
03:10:26,520 --> 03:10:32,040
Speaker 1: It's happening everywhere, and like we don't have a lot

3350
03:10:32,080 --> 03:10:37,840
Speaker 1: of time left to stop this and to bring it

3351
03:10:37,879 --> 03:10:42,520
Speaker 1: back to this like far right trucker foe trucker convoy

3352
03:10:43,120 --> 03:10:46,640
Speaker 1: ship show that's to happen and and then roll into

3353
03:10:47,080 --> 03:10:52,039
Speaker 1: roll into our capital. Like I'm just struck by the

3354
03:10:52,200 --> 03:10:54,640
Speaker 1: timing of it all. And I'm certainly not going to

3355
03:10:54,720 --> 03:10:58,320
Speaker 1: be like a conspiracy theorist about it and be like,

3356
03:10:58,360 --> 03:11:02,840
Speaker 1: well putin Is has planned this all happen at the

3357
03:11:02,879 --> 03:11:09,400
Speaker 1: same time. Um, But I do think that whether or

3358
03:11:09,440 --> 03:11:13,080
Speaker 1: not it's like plans happen at the same time, it's

3359
03:11:13,200 --> 03:11:19,920
Speaker 1: absolutely going to benefit these people that you know this

3360
03:11:20,000 --> 03:11:23,640
Speaker 1: is happening right now, and yeah, it's it's it's the

3361
03:11:23,680 --> 03:11:28,760
Speaker 1: same thing with with just horrific anti trans bills that

3362
03:11:28,840 --> 03:11:31,560
Speaker 1: the anti transport like not bills, but in anti trans

3363
03:11:33,720 --> 03:11:38,240
Speaker 1: government action, I guess is the correct term in that's

3364
03:11:38,240 --> 03:11:44,560
Speaker 1: happening in Texas right now. Yeah, it's uh, you know,

3365
03:11:44,760 --> 03:11:48,760
Speaker 1: like people people draw comparisons to to the Third Reich

3366
03:11:48,879 --> 03:11:52,080
Speaker 1: and to Nazi Germany and them banning like you know,

3367
03:11:52,160 --> 03:11:55,440
Speaker 1: homosexual dance parties and things like that. You know, like

3368
03:11:55,480 --> 03:11:57,680
Speaker 1: they didn't start out saying we want to kill all

3369
03:11:57,720 --> 03:12:00,760
Speaker 1: the Jews. Like that's not like it doesn't you don't

3370
03:12:00,879 --> 03:12:04,920
Speaker 1: start that way, you make you would do the smaller

3371
03:12:04,959 --> 03:12:08,039
Speaker 1: attacks first, you build up to it, You take power

3372
03:12:08,200 --> 03:12:13,000
Speaker 1: inch by inch until like nobody can stop you. Yeah,

3373
03:12:13,080 --> 03:12:16,959
Speaker 1: but I think I think you know there, there's there

3374
03:12:16,959 --> 03:12:20,560
Speaker 1: There's an important note here, though, which is that, like

3375
03:12:20,600 --> 03:12:24,039
Speaker 1: it's it's very easy to sort of especially in times

3376
03:12:24,040 --> 03:12:28,400
Speaker 1: like this, to sort of just like be be in

3377
03:12:28,400 --> 03:12:30,000
Speaker 1: a place where just it looks like history is just

3378
03:12:30,040 --> 03:12:32,800
Speaker 1: washing over you, right that you know, we're we're we're

3379
03:12:32,840 --> 03:12:36,680
Speaker 1: bound by these sort of irresistible powers and forces, And

3380
03:12:37,280 --> 03:12:42,040
Speaker 1: that's not true. Like these these these these kinds of

3381
03:12:42,080 --> 03:12:44,720
Speaker 1: fascist movements can be defeated, these kinds of militarist movements

3382
03:12:44,760 --> 03:12:48,520
Speaker 1: can be defeated, but they they they they can only

3383
03:12:48,640 --> 03:12:52,840
Speaker 1: be defeated when we actually take our place as the

3384
03:12:52,879 --> 03:12:55,600
Speaker 1: subjects of history, right like we we we are that

3385
03:12:55,640 --> 03:12:58,800
Speaker 1: we are the people who, through our actions, create history,

3386
03:12:59,120 --> 03:13:02,000
Speaker 1: and you know when we also are the people who

3387
03:13:02,040 --> 03:13:04,360
Speaker 1: create the world we see around us. But you know,

3388
03:13:04,840 --> 03:13:07,080
Speaker 1: as David Graby was incredibly fond of saying, right, it's

3389
03:13:07,080 --> 03:13:08,480
Speaker 1: like we we are the people who create the world

3390
03:13:08,520 --> 03:13:11,240
Speaker 1: around us, and that means that we can it can

3391
03:13:11,280 --> 03:13:16,400
Speaker 1: be otherwise. And you know, when when we essentially like

3392
03:13:16,480 --> 03:13:20,800
Speaker 1: when we when we reclaim our you know, our our

3393
03:13:20,840 --> 03:13:23,120
Speaker 1: status is subjects or status is human beings are status

3394
03:13:23,160 --> 03:13:27,160
Speaker 1: as the people of which history is composed of. And

3395
03:13:27,200 --> 03:13:31,080
Speaker 1: we move we can stop these things like they're there.

3396
03:13:31,120 --> 03:13:34,280
Speaker 1: There do not have to be another Like there don't

3397
03:13:34,280 --> 03:13:35,760
Speaker 1: have to be more Nazis, they don't have to be

3398
03:13:35,879 --> 03:13:38,200
Speaker 1: more genocides, they don't have to be more worse. We

3399
03:13:38,280 --> 03:13:44,160
Speaker 1: can stop them. We just have to fight, right. I

3400
03:13:44,200 --> 03:13:47,280
Speaker 1: don't disagree with that. I think I think it's completely true.

3401
03:13:47,360 --> 03:13:49,959
Speaker 1: I guess I'm just I don't know, maybe I'm like

3402
03:13:50,000 --> 03:13:54,680
Speaker 1: a dum I don't know. I mean it's really hard

3403
03:13:54,800 --> 03:13:59,000
Speaker 1: right now to kind of see I guess sort of

3404
03:13:59,680 --> 03:14:06,000
Speaker 1: mass resistance forming in the US specifically just because of

3405
03:14:07,080 --> 03:14:11,520
Speaker 1: the way the pandemic has wrecked us, and I feel

3406
03:14:11,600 --> 03:14:17,520
Speaker 1: like people are I mean, people are just checked out, right,

3407
03:14:17,560 --> 03:14:21,760
Speaker 1: Like they're exhausted, they're broke. I you know, a million

3408
03:14:21,760 --> 03:14:25,480
Speaker 1: people have died because of because of the government's just

3409
03:14:25,600 --> 03:14:30,480
Speaker 1: complete lack of adequate handling of COVID and and so

3410
03:14:30,840 --> 03:14:34,280
Speaker 1: I completely agree that like this isn't inevitable, like we

3411
03:14:34,440 --> 03:14:40,039
Speaker 1: can stop this. At the same time, I just I

3412
03:14:40,080 --> 03:14:44,400
Speaker 1: don't know what it's going to take for Americans like

3413
03:14:44,440 --> 03:14:49,959
Speaker 1: as an entity to actually stand up and fight this.

3414
03:14:50,120 --> 03:14:53,800
Speaker 1: And I'm not blaming individual people because it's like all

3415
03:14:53,800 --> 03:14:56,840
Speaker 1: the reasons for people being exhausted and checked out are

3416
03:14:57,040 --> 03:15:01,200
Speaker 1: like also by design, right, because or like if we

3417
03:15:01,360 --> 03:15:06,920
Speaker 1: keep people exhausted and checked out, then the oligarchs at

3418
03:15:06,959 --> 03:15:10,760
Speaker 1: the top like can continue to like loot society. Yeah,

3419
03:15:10,800 --> 03:15:14,040
Speaker 1: I mean I think I'm sort of less sync when

3420
03:15:14,240 --> 03:15:16,560
Speaker 1: on that, just because, like you know, because I remember,

3421
03:15:17,320 --> 03:15:20,240
Speaker 1: this is the same thing that like everyone said right

3422
03:15:20,240 --> 03:15:23,720
Speaker 1: before the uprising, like everyone was checked out. Everyone was

3423
03:15:23,760 --> 03:15:27,080
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, like the pandemic had just started.

3424
03:15:27,080 --> 03:15:29,800
Speaker 1: Everyone there's this like general consensus that like mass action

3425
03:15:29,879 --> 03:15:33,880
Speaker 1: wasn't possible, and then you know, like two days later,

3426
03:15:33,920 --> 03:15:36,240
Speaker 1: they burned down they burned down a police station and

3427
03:15:36,360 --> 03:15:39,680
Speaker 1: like deluding the American Mile, and you know, it's like

3428
03:15:39,720 --> 03:15:47,200
Speaker 1: it's like it's these these things like you know, every

3429
03:15:47,400 --> 03:15:53,920
Speaker 1: like the the people who are in some sense the

3430
03:15:54,000 --> 03:16:01,200
Speaker 1: most in tune with like what is happening, it'll often

3431
03:16:01,240 --> 03:16:04,080
Speaker 1: tend to be the people who are most shocked by

3432
03:16:04,240 --> 03:16:06,800
Speaker 1: when when these kinds of things just emerge seemingly out

3433
03:16:06,840 --> 03:16:11,320
Speaker 1: of nowhere. And so I don't know, I think, I think,

3434
03:16:13,959 --> 03:16:18,600
Speaker 1: I think we can't know what exactly will set off

3435
03:16:19,560 --> 03:16:21,680
Speaker 1: the next wave, but I but I think it's a

3436
03:16:21,720 --> 03:16:25,280
Speaker 1: safe bet there will be another one, because there always is.

3437
03:16:26,440 --> 03:16:29,200
Speaker 1: We've never you know, we we have yet to hit

3438
03:16:29,240 --> 03:16:32,240
Speaker 1: a point so bad that people stop fighting like ever

3439
03:16:32,520 --> 03:16:36,840
Speaker 1: in history, so oh for sure. Yeah. And that's the

3440
03:16:36,959 --> 03:16:40,280
Speaker 1: long arc of history too, is it's like people have

3441
03:16:40,360 --> 03:16:45,879
Speaker 1: always been fighting for their liberation in some way, And

3442
03:16:46,959 --> 03:16:50,480
Speaker 1: if you look at the longer story, you know, there

3443
03:16:50,560 --> 03:16:57,240
Speaker 1: might be very long periods of darkness and repression and collapse,

3444
03:16:58,560 --> 03:17:06,520
Speaker 1: and then people emerge from that and new societies emerge,

3445
03:17:07,000 --> 03:17:09,480
Speaker 1: new ways of thinking all of that. And I think

3446
03:17:10,720 --> 03:17:15,440
Speaker 1: where we're at now, like at this moment, there are

3447
03:17:15,520 --> 03:17:21,880
Speaker 1: certainly small ways that people can resist and ways that

3448
03:17:21,920 --> 03:17:24,680
Speaker 1: we like we have to focus on, like our immediate

3449
03:17:24,720 --> 03:17:28,360
Speaker 1: communities too. You know, it's so easy to get to

3450
03:17:28,440 --> 03:17:31,360
Speaker 1: feel helpless when you like you look at things on

3451
03:17:31,400 --> 03:17:34,360
Speaker 1: such a grand scale. Because of course, like we can't

3452
03:17:34,360 --> 03:17:36,640
Speaker 1: all just like run into Ukraine right now and like

3453
03:17:36,720 --> 03:17:41,280
Speaker 1: stop putin like there's there's really not a lot we

3454
03:17:41,360 --> 03:17:44,240
Speaker 1: can do when it comes to like things like that.

3455
03:17:45,240 --> 03:17:48,800
Speaker 1: But we can like take care of our friends. We

3456
03:17:48,840 --> 03:17:52,640
Speaker 1: can like make sure that the people immediately around us

3457
03:17:52,680 --> 03:17:56,440
Speaker 1: like have what they need. We can like check in on,

3458
03:17:56,560 --> 03:18:00,920
Speaker 1: like you know, our on house neighbors. We can like,

3459
03:18:03,879 --> 03:18:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, some people here in Chicago are prepping to

3460
03:18:06,560 --> 03:18:10,920
Speaker 1: like take in Ukrainian refugees, for example, right now. And

3461
03:18:10,920 --> 03:18:13,400
Speaker 1: and that's like the sort of action that like is

3462
03:18:13,680 --> 03:18:21,000
Speaker 1: definitely going to be needed. Um. And you know, like

3463
03:18:21,720 --> 03:18:24,440
Speaker 1: when you look at the story of like something as

3464
03:18:24,520 --> 03:18:29,560
Speaker 1: as horrible and just like awful as a holocaust, like

3465
03:18:29,640 --> 03:18:32,199
Speaker 1: of course, there are all all these like small stories

3466
03:18:32,240 --> 03:18:36,840
Speaker 1: of like people who like sheltered, people who are who

3467
03:18:36,840 --> 03:18:40,640
Speaker 1: are being sought out, and you know, there were there

3468
03:18:40,640 --> 03:18:43,439
Speaker 1: were all these different kinds of resistance movements in Germany

3469
03:18:43,480 --> 03:18:49,400
Speaker 1: and in Poland. Um. And it's not just about like

3470
03:18:49,800 --> 03:18:53,199
Speaker 1: all the people that that Hitler killed. It is also

3471
03:18:53,200 --> 03:18:56,240
Speaker 1: about all the people that like we're that people managed

3472
03:18:56,280 --> 03:19:02,120
Speaker 1: to save, you know, and it is also like I

3473
03:19:02,120 --> 03:19:04,760
Speaker 1: don't know we we in America especially, it's like we

3474
03:19:04,879 --> 03:19:07,400
Speaker 1: gotta get away from the Hitler comparisons, which I know

3475
03:19:07,480 --> 03:19:11,680
Speaker 1: I just like just made, but like it's it's you know,

3476
03:19:11,959 --> 03:19:15,360
Speaker 1: like don't get me wrong, Like there's obviously like plenty

3477
03:19:15,400 --> 03:19:18,240
Speaker 1: of parallels, and it's important to be like students of

3478
03:19:18,360 --> 03:19:22,360
Speaker 1: history and like understand what's going on and everything, but

3479
03:19:22,400 --> 03:19:27,960
Speaker 1: like we don't. What we're seeing is like we're going

3480
03:19:28,000 --> 03:19:30,480
Speaker 1: to see a kind of fascism that is unique to

3481
03:19:30,560 --> 03:19:35,400
Speaker 1: our era, right, Like I don't know that Trump is

3482
03:19:35,440 --> 03:19:38,040
Speaker 1: going to come out and call for like outright genocide

3483
03:19:38,400 --> 03:19:41,560
Speaker 1: and like you know, build build deaf or like Rhonda

3484
03:19:41,640 --> 03:19:45,160
Speaker 1: Santis is going to get elected and like build deaf camps.

3485
03:19:45,200 --> 03:19:48,000
Speaker 1: Like it's going to look different than it has in

3486
03:19:48,040 --> 03:19:51,400
Speaker 1: the past, even if like some of the phenomenon are similar.

3487
03:19:52,600 --> 03:19:55,440
Speaker 1: So what we're looking at instead is like, especially with

3488
03:19:55,440 --> 03:19:59,720
Speaker 1: climate change, we're looking at a lot of controls over borders.

3489
03:20:01,000 --> 03:20:03,760
Speaker 1: And obviously some of that is like what's happening in

3490
03:20:03,800 --> 03:20:06,560
Speaker 1: Europe right now too, but you know, people are going

3491
03:20:06,600 --> 03:20:11,760
Speaker 1: to be looking to control resources like water, oil, land,

3492
03:20:11,840 --> 03:20:15,640
Speaker 1: as we know that they're like running out. And so

3493
03:20:15,760 --> 03:20:20,120
Speaker 1: this this sentiment against like immigrants especially, you know, that's

3494
03:20:20,160 --> 03:20:24,840
Speaker 1: something that is going to just keep getting worse, and

3495
03:20:25,000 --> 03:20:27,320
Speaker 1: so I think it makes it harder for people to

3496
03:20:27,440 --> 03:20:33,119
Speaker 1: I guess recognize that things are as bad as they were,

3497
03:20:34,000 --> 03:20:42,520
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. Um, And ultimately, like it's just yeah,

3498
03:20:42,959 --> 03:20:47,039
Speaker 1: mass resistance is the only way out, right, Like, the

3499
03:20:47,200 --> 03:20:52,360
Speaker 1: people have to resist and we can't keep waiting for

3500
03:20:52,400 --> 03:20:59,080
Speaker 1: like Joe Biden or or anyone to be our political savior. Yeah.

3501
03:20:59,560 --> 03:21:01,560
Speaker 1: I think I think that's a that's that's a pretty

3502
03:21:01,600 --> 03:21:03,920
Speaker 1: good note to end on. Yeah, thank you, thank you

3503
03:21:03,959 --> 03:21:05,600
Speaker 1: for joining us. Do you have stuff that you want

3504
03:21:05,600 --> 03:21:09,960
Speaker 1: to plug? Um, not at the moment. No, I mean

3505
03:21:11,000 --> 03:21:15,600
Speaker 1: I think, uh, I guess our Twitter account, but that's

3506
03:21:15,600 --> 03:21:18,879
Speaker 1: about it. Okay. Yeah, well this this has been This

3507
03:21:18,920 --> 03:21:20,800
Speaker 1: has been another episode if it can happened here. You

3508
03:21:20,840 --> 03:21:25,279
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter and Instagram at happen here pod. Uh,

3509
03:21:25,520 --> 03:21:28,000
Speaker 1: you can find stuff at the Cool Zone. We have

3510
03:21:28,000 --> 03:21:30,880
Speaker 1: a website. Go there. Stop asking me for sources. They're

3511
03:21:30,879 --> 03:21:34,520
Speaker 1: they're on the website. They get out again uploaded. Uh. Yeah,

3512
03:21:35,280 --> 03:21:45,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank thank you once again. For twining us. Hey,

3513
03:21:45,160 --> 03:21:48,280
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3514
03:21:48,280 --> 03:21:50,840
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could

3515
03:21:50,879 --> 03:21:53,240
Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For

3516
03:21:53,320 --> 03:21:56,039
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

3517
03:21:56,120 --> 03:21:58,120
Speaker 1: zone Media dot com or check us out on the

3518
03:21:58,120 --> 03:22:00,840
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen

3519
03:22:00,879 --> 03:22:03,800
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here,

3520
03:22:03,879 --> 03:22:07,320
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources.

3521
03:22:07,560 --> 03:22:12,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Hey there, I'm Jess Milady Confetti here. Hi,

3522
03:22:13,000 --> 03:22:15,760
Speaker 1: I'm Psyche and I am Hey Shady Lady, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to Boss Level podcast, where we feature conversations with gas

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