Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain,
Speaker 1: behavior and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest
Speaker 1: who will stimulate your mind and give you a greater
Speaker 1: understanding of yourself, others, and the world we live in.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. Today, I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to introduce W. Keith Campbell on the show. Keith
Speaker 1: is professor of psychology at the University of Georgia and
Speaker 1: the author of more than one hundred scientific articles. His
Speaker 1: books include The Handbook of Narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder,
Speaker 1: Theoretical Approaches, Empirical Findings and Treatments. That was the title
Speaker 1: of one book. Another book is The Narcissism Epidemic Living
Speaker 1: in the Age of Entitlement and he wrote that with
Speaker 1: Gene Twenge and When You Love a Man who Loves
Speaker 1: Himself How to deal with a One way relationship. His
Speaker 1: work on narcissism has appeared in USA Today, Time, in
Speaker 1: The New York Times. Doctor Campbell's also made numerous radio
Speaker 1: and television appearances, including The Today Show and NPR is
Speaker 1: All Things Considered. Thank you so much for being on
Speaker 1: the show today. Hey, thanks for having me. I you know,
Speaker 1: I came across her work when I was writing an article,
Speaker 1: working in an article for Psychology Today on how to
Speaker 1: spot a narcissist. And you know, I really enjoyed your
Speaker 1: book When You Love a Man who Loves Himself. It
Speaker 1: was funny. It was a funny book and very elucidating.
Speaker 1: So thanks for the work you're doing on narcisism. I
Speaker 1: thought we could talk about first of all, why do
Speaker 1: you get interested in this topic? Why this topic out
Speaker 1: of all the topics in psychology you could have studied. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: a few reasons. And I know I've thought about this
Speaker 1: so much. I don't even know if it's cure anymore.
Speaker 1: But I started out to study in the South and
Speaker 1: self enhancement basically, people make themselves look and feel good.
Speaker 1: And that was the idea, was everybody self enhances And then,
Speaker 1: you know, I just had a chance. I started looking
Speaker 1: at narcissism in one study and I was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: not everybody spends their time self enhancing. A few people do,
Speaker 1: and they, you know, they make the averages high, but
Speaker 1: it's really, you know, it's people narcissistic are doing it.
Speaker 1: And part of it was I always wanted to study
Speaker 1: the non self, you know. I was kind of love
Speaker 1: Buddhism as a kid and Taoism, and I couldn't figure
Speaker 1: out how to do that, so I ended up going
Speaker 1: the opposite direction and studying the so the outlandish aspects
Speaker 1: of the self. Yeah, and it's fun, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a fun topic to study it. You know, it's
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like the Ebola guy. You know, it's
Speaker 1: just you start studying something and wow, the world just
Speaker 1: goes to hell and they call you. So I think
Speaker 1: I got lucky and it was interesting and it's been fun.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and narcissists are fun too at first, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. I mean, you know, I've done some
Speaker 1: work on straight up entitlement and I never found it
Speaker 1: that exciting because I don't really like playing and titled people.
Speaker 1: They I don't like them. But people narcissistic are often
Speaker 1: fun to be around. They're fun to hang out with,
Speaker 1: they make great they're great entertainment value. They can be
Speaker 1: good colleagues in some ways and and bad in some
Speaker 1: ways too, but they're they're interesting. Yeah, So what is
Speaker 1: the difference between clinical narcissism and subclinical narcissism, And can
Speaker 1: you call people who score high in subclinical narsism like
Speaker 1: in everyday population, can you call them narcissisms? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's you know, there's no there's no secret team
Speaker 1: who makes up the rules on this. You know, the
Speaker 1: first question is Narcissism is a trade. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a trade that involves for anbiosity and a lack of
Speaker 1: empathy and these these interesting you know, self regulation strategies
Speaker 1: or games people play to make them look good and
Speaker 1: you know, bragging and showing off at attention seeking, and
Speaker 1: that ranges across a continuum where most people in the middle,
Speaker 1: and then there's some people at the extremes. And if
Speaker 1: you're at the very high level of narcissism, and you
Speaker 1: sort of get stuck in that pattern of behavior, if
Speaker 1: you're you know, if you're showing off on stage and
Speaker 1: then you come home and you're showing off to your kids.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't have a conversation with your wife
Speaker 1: because you keep having to talk about how great you are,
Speaker 1: and it starts damaging your life. It can be a disorder,
Speaker 1: but beyond the damage, it causes. There's no real difference
Speaker 1: between what's sort of subclinical and clinical. It's really just
Speaker 1: a matter of extremes and inflexibility of the trade, just
Speaker 1: like all personality disorders really in terms of the names.
Speaker 1: You know, you can call people high in narcissism or
Speaker 1: you can call them narcissists, and that just means somebody
Speaker 1: high on the normal continuum. It doesn't mean somebody who's
Speaker 1: been diagnosed to having a personality disorder, just the same
Speaker 1: way you call people introverts, people who are somewhat you know,
Speaker 1: high in introversion, but doesn't mean they're pathologically introverted. But
Speaker 1: it gets confusing, and people use the term narcissists to
Speaker 1: describe people with MPD, and then they think you're being
Speaker 1: pejorative when you use it. So it does get confusing
Speaker 1: out there, it does, and people I feel like people
Speaker 1: throw the term narcissism around like they say, oh, you're
Speaker 1: such a narcissist. Yeah, let me ask you something. You know,
Speaker 1: I know some people who accuse other people narcissists themselves.
Speaker 1: I know this are very narcissistic sometimes, is there have
Speaker 1: you ever studied that phenomenon, like, for instance, you know,
Speaker 1: like you know, I've noticed, like I've seen some people say, oh,
Speaker 1: my ex husband is such a narcissist. He never paid
Speaker 1: attention to my needs. He only cared about himself. But
Speaker 1: the more I get to know that person, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I should tell that person they're kind
Speaker 1: of you know, they want it all to be about themselves. Actually,
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely, there hasn't
Speaker 1: been there. It hasn't been a lot of research directly
Speaker 1: on that. And in fact, I can think of like
Speaker 1: little correlations here and there. But to that point, you know,
Speaker 1: what we find in relationships tends to be people who
Speaker 1: narcissistic end up at least there's some some to some
Speaker 1: extent with other people who are narcissistic. So there's some
Speaker 1: come awfully or some matching in relationships. And you can
Speaker 1: see how that would be a problem because if we
Speaker 1: both want their needs met, it's not going to work
Speaker 1: too well. Exactly, Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Let's you
Speaker 1: know probably what's going on there. And I want to
Speaker 1: be quite not saying that everyone that some people are
Speaker 1: generally with a narcissistic partner, and they themselves may be
Speaker 1: the most have be very humble, you know. So I'm
Speaker 1: not talking about all people, but I've noticed this sometimes
Speaker 1: I've noticed this, and I'm like, you know, I think,
Speaker 1: I like, I think you're both actually a little narcissis,
Speaker 1: like quite narcissistic. Yeah, it happens. I think when most
Speaker 1: of the damage gets done is when you have certain
Speaker 1: needs narcissistic somebody who's not and they have two very
Speaker 1: different you know, personal styles and different things. They want
Speaker 1: a relationship, and I think that's where people can get
Speaker 1: really hurt. Two people are narcissistic, you know, that are
Speaker 1: sort of shallow, materialistic and look good together and go
Speaker 1: to parties together. I think that that can work a
Speaker 1: little better, at least for a while. Some pattern I
Speaker 1: noticed a lot is the really caring, compassionate, like caretaker
Speaker 1: kind of person kind of again take advantage of by
Speaker 1: the narcissist. Do you see that ever in your research.
Speaker 1: We haven't really found it pop out in research. It's
Speaker 1: the you know, it's the doormat model or the forgetting
Speaker 1: the term from from transactional psychology, but it's the it's
Speaker 1: the idea that you have this somebody who's a caretaker,
Speaker 1: somebody's you know, co dependent, I guess would be the term.
Speaker 1: We haven't, Like I said, we haven't really found that
Speaker 1: in research, but I know it exists. I just don't
Speaker 1: think it's big enough to pop out in correlations but
Speaker 1: I certainly heard that from people. Yeah, so, yeah, I
Speaker 1: find out these matches in relationships fascinating. Now. You so
Speaker 1: you think, like, like the core aspect of narcisism, is
Speaker 1: it the entitlement aspect? I think so. I think there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of us and we argue about this and
Speaker 1: discuss it, and I think there's this core. There's this
Speaker 1: core piece of antagonism, entitlement, and grandiosity that all sort
Speaker 1: of you know, load together in some way. That seems
Speaker 1: to be the core. And then for them with grandiose
Speaker 1: and narcissism, you get a lot of extraversion and dominance
Speaker 1: and aggressiveness, and this is what you see in the
Speaker 1: leaders who are very narcissistic. And then for the more
Speaker 1: vulnerable form, you get a lot of neuroticism and insecurity
Speaker 1: that goes with that entitlement. And that's the more vulnerable
Speaker 1: form that you often see in clinical settings. The vulnerable
Speaker 1: form is really interesting because it can go undetected and
Speaker 1: it can be masked as introversion or sensitivity hot right,
Speaker 1: it can be masked by lots of other things, whereas
Speaker 1: grandiose narcissists are like out there. Yeah, you know, we've
Speaker 1: done studies where you ask people can identify narcissism either
Speaker 1: from you know, watching a person talk, or just from
Speaker 1: your Facebook page or from your selfies or whatever. And
Speaker 1: grandiose narcissism, that sort of extroverted form people do see,
Speaker 1: and they and they like often in the vulnerable form,
Speaker 1: they don't really see until you know, some time has passed.
Speaker 1: And that's why it's sometimes called covert narcissism. It's it's
Speaker 1: hidden and you might think it's shyness or introversion, and
Speaker 1: then it turns out, well, there's some grandiosid in there too,
Speaker 1: in a real strong sense of entitlement. Yeah. I find
Speaker 1: that covert narcissism is so interesting. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of these school rampage shooters, I think they have covit narcissism.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's no one's really written an article.
Speaker 1: Just maybe we should write an article about that, because
Speaker 1: I think that that hit the nails in the head,
Speaker 1: hits you absolutely. I wouldn't through. I'm teaching a seminar
Speaker 1: narcissism this year, and I just went through a bunch
Speaker 1: of the manifestos that, especially that case it's Barbera. But
Speaker 1: many of these cases the last case with the TV reporter,
Speaker 1: and you often have people who seem shy and and
Speaker 1: somewhat passive with these very grandiose ideas, but they just
Speaker 1: can't seem to function in the normal world. In the
Speaker 1: Santa Barbera case that you know, this this kid asks
Speaker 1: that one person and gets rejected, and then he decides,
Speaker 1: you know, all women should be eliminated. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: that incredible vulnerability but also incredible narcissism. Yeah, absolutely, so,
Speaker 1: you know, I wonder how that can be diagnosed or detected. Manifesto, Man,
Speaker 1: anybody who writes a manifesto, it just ends, well, that's
Speaker 1: what of my girls can live by. So tell me
Speaker 1: about some of the hot topics in the science of
Speaker 1: narcissism field right now. What are some of the threat
Speaker 1: you're most excited by and what are we finding. Well,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, one issue that's been ongoing and
Speaker 1: it really isn't resolved, but I almost think we're making
Speaker 1: a little progress is just defining narcissism in terms of
Speaker 1: you know, the clinical or psychiatric community. So in that,
Speaker 1: you know, in the DSM five, I don't know how
Speaker 1: familiar are with this, but there ended up being oh perfect, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know most of us do. Yeah, you end up
Speaker 1: with two definite you know, there's two definitions of narcissism
Speaker 1: in there, and they still sort of jam this this
Speaker 1: grandiose and vulnerable piece together within a single construct and
Speaker 1: no one they just haven't torn it apart. And I
Speaker 1: think we're making some progress. We're going to get some
Speaker 1: sort of agreement on Okay, here's this grandiose form, here's
Speaker 1: this vulnerable form, here's what makes them similar, here's what
Speaker 1: makes them different. So that that's one ongoing debate. And
Speaker 1: then the other thing I find really interesting is, you know,
Speaker 1: it is looking in the social media and sort of
Speaker 1: broadly in the you know, the virtual world, and how
Speaker 1: narcissism is going to come out or has come out
Speaker 1: in that space. And that's personally what I find really interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you mean by the virtual like role playing games? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we started setting geeks, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: broadly defined people who do live action role play and
Speaker 1: coseplay and aiming and looked at narcissism. There people are
Speaker 1: starting to look at selfies and narcissism to see how
Speaker 1: it comes out and that so that whole space is
Speaker 1: an interesting way to I find it interesting. At least
Speaker 1: I'm learning a lot about it. Do people do narciss
Speaker 1: grow up? Ever? Like I do? Think there's a developmental process.
Speaker 1: And if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of just short term mating or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know that eighteen to twenty four would be prime
Speaker 1: narcissism time. And I mean, I think at eighteen was
Speaker 1: the smartest I've ever been, and it's been downhill ever since,
Speaker 1: or at least in terms of my confidence of what
Speaker 1: I've known. So I think a lot of us, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, have some high level of narcissism is as
Speaker 1: sort of young adults. Narcissism is same thing as confidence. No,
Speaker 1: I think it's more over confidence. But but they go together, Okay,
Speaker 1: narcissism you get very high levels of confidence, and in
Speaker 1: fact so high that they're wrong. You can you can
Speaker 1: know things that aren't true. You know, you think, you
Speaker 1: admit to knowing things that aren't real. You don't learn
Speaker 1: from mistakes, so you do get some real overconfidence with narcissism.
Speaker 1: But it's not good to be too to have too
Speaker 1: much humility either. No, it's in narcissism. It's a trade off.
Speaker 1: And you know, you think of the system. If you're
Speaker 1: in a system where there's no comp sequence to failure,
Speaker 1: narcissism would work really well. If you're in a system
Speaker 1: where there's a bigger risk of failure, you you know,
Speaker 1: narcissism doesn't work so well, right, Like so reality TV,
Speaker 1: you know there, I think there are a couple of
Speaker 1: narcissists in that world, a couple of them. Now, I
Speaker 1: mean the data on that are fascinating because you find
Speaker 1: you know that study two Pinsky did probably a decade ago,
Speaker 1: mentioned him. Yeah, it's great with Mark Young, they found
Speaker 1: the high levels of NPI scores and narcissistic personality into
Speaker 1: toy scores and reality television. There's been some interesting work
Speaker 1: on fame and narcissism, and it's obviously a real attraction
Speaker 1: to people narcissistic. I mean, fame is a great way
Speaker 1: to expressed narcissism, so it just works in that space. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I find that the fame thing like interesting. A lot
Speaker 1: of people, there's like this cover narcissism thing where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't they so desperately want the fame,
Speaker 1: but they want so we don't want to like be
Speaker 1: seen as someone who wants the fame, like the tortured artist.
Speaker 1: I've been real at about David Foster Wallace and you know,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, all those interviews and everything, and
Speaker 1: he's like he's like, I really really want it, but
Speaker 1: I really would I would hate to be seen as
Speaker 1: the one who really really wants it. So there's is there.
Speaker 1: Is it possibly a neurotic vulnerable narcissist? Yes, absolutely, I
Speaker 1: mean that's part of it though. Is that high level
Speaker 1: of neuroticism, Yeah for sure. And I know, you know
Speaker 1: creativity feel better than I do, but you know, that's
Speaker 1: that's something we see and with some of the data
Speaker 1: we have on creativity is high levels of vulnerable narcissism.
Speaker 1: It's that sort of narcissism with neuroticism that seems to
Speaker 1: be linked to some creativity. Wow. Yeah, I wonder if
Speaker 1: any Woody Allen going on there as well. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a good example. I mean I don't know him obviously,
Speaker 1: and I but you know, he plays a very that
Speaker 1: very sort of vulnerable narcissistic, neurotic character all the time.
Speaker 1: You know, he's in the center of everything, but he
Speaker 1: kind of neurotic and outshocks about it. Isn't like just
Speaker 1: neuroticism the trait if you're too high in that. I've
Speaker 1: read somewhere that that actually is indicates selfishness is a
Speaker 1: selfish trait because you're so obsessed with your self and
Speaker 1: how you're being perceived. That isn't that in itself in
Speaker 1: a way selfish? I don't know, what do you know.
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's resolved, but there's idea. You know, depression,
Speaker 1: you see a lot of self focus and anxiety. You
Speaker 1: see a lot of self focus, even extreme self focus.
Speaker 1: Some people have argued that some version of vulnerable self focus,
Speaker 1: vulnerable narcissism, is at the core of a lot of disorders. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I see what they're getting at.
Speaker 1: As you distance yourself in the world, you become so
Speaker 1: focused on yourself, your own problems. You sort of isolate
Speaker 1: yourself from the world, and you think you're such a
Speaker 1: big deal that you know, your life is that important
Speaker 1: you should be upset about it, right exactly. And I
Speaker 1: think a big thing for people who are suffering from
Speaker 1: anxiety issues as well is when they get outside their
Speaker 1: own head and like help others and then they see
Speaker 1: a reduction. That's what we find in the field of
Speaker 1: positive psychology, having gratitude and stuff. So yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's you know, I think there's something too that I
Speaker 1: was like that old research from you know, the Battle
Speaker 1: of Britain where people you know, were being bombed by
Speaker 1: the by the Nazis. Sort of psychological disorders went way
Speaker 1: down during that time, you know, just you got some
Speaker 1: real problems to worry about, so you kind of think
Speaker 1: about yourself the work last. Yeah, for sure. So are
Speaker 1: you where are you on the narcissism scale. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you've taken it, taken your own death. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard to take it yourself. I'm actually pretty low
Speaker 1: in terms of I try to be low. But you know,
Speaker 1: like every academic you get me in certain areasm just
Speaker 1: an arrogant sob Yeah, you're only I mean there's there's
Speaker 1: a little bit of narcissism and everyone right, Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a fundamental it's a fundamental human kind of motive for
Speaker 1: self enhancement of the self esteem, right right, And you know,
Speaker 1: and you try to use it. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: my in my head. This is a metaphor I see,
Speaker 1: which never works. But I think it's ego. It's almost
Speaker 1: like riding a dolphin. You just grab the thing, you
Speaker 1: ride it a little bit when you need it, let
Speaker 1: it go when you don't. And the hard part is
Speaker 1: to know when to take to use it. No one
Speaker 1: not to. But I find trying to be willing to
Speaker 1: do things rather than being super confident works better for me,
Speaker 1: at least. I don't know if that makes sense. But
Speaker 1: whenever I do, I, you know, public stuff, and I
Speaker 1: tend to just go for it, but I tend not
Speaker 1: to go I'm going to kill it. S not so
Speaker 1: you don't. You don't walk with swagger. I don't have
Speaker 1: a lot of swagger. Now you could. Swagger works for
Speaker 1: some people. It's just not my not my thing, not
Speaker 1: your style. Yeah, okay, fair enough, fair enough. But you
Speaker 1: you know, so you study them like an anthropologist studies
Speaker 1: a different species or you know. Uh, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think for me. I went into it for
Speaker 1: the sort of the classic me search. I wasn't trying
Speaker 1: to figure out my own right, Yeah, I got issues
Speaker 1: that just doesn't seem to be my big one, that
Speaker 1: wasn't your big one. No, So narcissm is a double
Speaker 1: edged sword. And I was wondering, wondering if you could
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your new model of
Speaker 1: the emerging zone and the other zone. Yeah. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: this is something my wife and I talked about a lot.
Speaker 1: But you know, I try to think about things not
Speaker 1: just in terms of personality. Traits and trades are great,
Speaker 1: but I try to think of them as in sort
Speaker 1: of dynamic terms. And the way most people think about
Speaker 1: narcissism in terms of a dynamic is self enhancement, which
Speaker 1: is you do things to make yourself look good to
Speaker 1: get attention, and then you feel good and you just
Speaker 1: keep doing that as long as it works, it's great.
Speaker 1: And so that dynamic is really well established. But the
Speaker 1: other thing, you know, we started thinking about was how
Speaker 1: does this change over time? Because often what you find
Speaker 1: with narcissism, So the leadership example, I think is really interesting.
Speaker 1: People are narcissistic rise to leadership really well. People look
Speaker 1: up to them they like them. People are narcisstic who
Speaker 1: want to be leaders, they become leaders. Do vulnerable narcisists
Speaker 1: become leader? Now this is this is grandiose. Here, grandiose
Speaker 1: vulnerable narcissists in the basement and fantasize about it and
Speaker 1: play video games. But the grandiose ones are you know,
Speaker 1: actually out there doing it and it works and then
Speaker 1: you know, you hire them and then they turn out
Speaker 1: to be sort of risk taking and self centered and
Speaker 1: sometimes it's great and sometimes it's an absolute disaster, but
Speaker 1: whatever happens, they end up on the feet and go
Speaker 1: do it again. And so there's this this idea was
Speaker 1: you know, this emerging zone sort of in the first
Speaker 1: impressions of people, and you know, when you're you know,
Speaker 1: when you start dating somebody, when you know, elect somebody
Speaker 1: to office, or choose somebody as a leader, any of
Speaker 1: these initial phases of a relationship. People in narissistic tend
Speaker 1: to do really well. By that, I mean grandiose narcissism,
Speaker 1: and over time it tends to fall apart. That's this
Speaker 1: more enduring zone. And so the trick is, if you're narcissistic,
Speaker 1: always be you know, always be closing always be emerging
Speaker 1: always and politician, you know politicians. I think it was
Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter Firs who's talked about the permanent campaign. So
Speaker 1: you know, you run for president, you never stop campaigning, right,
Speaker 1: because you're real if you're narcissistic, you're really good at
Speaker 1: the campaigning part. You're not so good at the actual
Speaker 1: leadership part. Right. So that's the idea is sort of
Speaker 1: you know, look at how the time course of the
Speaker 1: relationship with narcissists this effected, and now people narcissistic can
Speaker 1: all be in those dating. You know, they're really good
Speaker 1: at dating, so how can they keep dating? They're really
Speaker 1: good at becoming leaders, don't they can they keep you know,
Speaker 1: running for leadership rather than actually leading, Not if that
Speaker 1: made any sense at all, but that that was sort
Speaker 1: of the idea of it was, you know, what's the
Speaker 1: zone where narcissism really does well? Great? Do you are
Speaker 1: you strike shocked at all that Trump is starting to
Speaker 1: slide in the ratings? I think it's I think it's
Speaker 1: a I think Trump is going to do well and
Speaker 1: he's I don't. Yeah, wouldn't that kind I think your theory? No,
Speaker 1: because I think you know, first of all the way
Speaker 1: we do campaigns here is they're just reality TV that
Speaker 1: no one believes. We're an interesting case right now because
Speaker 1: the country has so little trust. We have so little
Speaker 1: trust in politicians that what they say doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1: We don't really trust them and we shouldn't. And when
Speaker 1: you have a situation like that, sort of an unstable
Speaker 1: place where people need trust, you need a strong leader.
Speaker 1: That's what people gravitate to in these things. And Trump
Speaker 1: comes across as confident, he comes across as a narcissistic,
Speaker 1: but he's also often seen as very honest because he says, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I pay off politicians and I'm an egomaniac,
Speaker 1: and or at least he says, I have a strong ego.
Speaker 1: And I think his honesty makes people trust him more
Speaker 1: than anybody else, So it should work, okay. And I
Speaker 1: think the slide versus Ben Carson, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think people go for the they'll go for the ego.
Speaker 1: I mean that they the outward ego and the charisma
Speaker 1: and the and the surgency. That's fascinating. What do you
Speaker 1: think it's it's outside the box prediction. But well, why
Speaker 1: don't why don't people go for reasonableness. I think we
Speaker 1: have a political system where I mean, we've looked at trust.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, trust is about the lowest it's
Speaker 1: ever been in this country. You know, we've looked at
Speaker 1: this with some of the general social survey data other data.
Speaker 1: When you don't trust anybody, reasonableness doesn't matter. Okay, what
Speaker 1: can they say? They're like, I'm reasonable, Like I don't
Speaker 1: believe you. But let's move out of the politic politics
Speaker 1: realm for a second. Why are nurses so attractive at
Speaker 1: the least at first blush? What is it that they have?
Speaker 1: I think it's those you know, what you'd broadly described
Speaker 1: as agentic traits confidence, swagger, extraversion, activity level dynamism. I mean,
Speaker 1: these are all things we found very attractive in people. Okay,
Speaker 1: and they've got them so that it works in the
Speaker 1: in the short term, okay. So and then there and
Speaker 1: you found it in relationships. There's a magic mark, like
Speaker 1: a nine month mark, right, yeah, that's the coin. Pardon
Speaker 1: when there's a steep to coin. Yeah, that's so. I
Speaker 1: mean I've used this, you know, I talk about it
Speaker 1: as the chocolate cake model often, which is that when
Speaker 1: you you know, if somebody gives the choice between eating
Speaker 1: chocolate cake and eating broccoli. You go for the chocolate cake,
Speaker 1: and you feel really good for like twenty minutes, and
Speaker 1: then you just crash. You get a sugar crash, and
Speaker 1: then you hate yourself reading the chocolate cake, and then
Speaker 1: you get depressed. And the next day you wake up
Speaker 1: instead because you want the chocolate cake at of broccoli,
Speaker 1: and you go for the chocolate cake again. And so
Speaker 1: we're sort of drawn to these things that give us
Speaker 1: the short term rewards. And even if the crash is
Speaker 1: pretty extreme, and if you broccoli, you don't feel good,
Speaker 1: you don't get a big buzz, but thirty minutes or
Speaker 1: forty minutes later, you go, you know, I'm a good
Speaker 1: bird and I'm healthy. I really like who I am. Yes,
Speaker 1: I had propt me for dinner. I feel great. You
Speaker 1: feel good, right, You're like, I'm ade, I take care
Speaker 1: of myself. You know, I'm ready to have some chocolate now, right,
Speaker 1: But you don't get the buzz from the ice cream.
Speaker 1: I'm going to have you know after this interview. And
Speaker 1: so what you see in the relationships is people are
Speaker 1: you know, debutople and narcissistic, and they're really the relationships
Speaker 1: are very exciting at first because narcissists have all these
Speaker 1: traits that make them good at mating. So they have
Speaker 1: all these you know, these early excitement things and they're fun.
Speaker 1: And then over time in the relationship, when you're supposed
Speaker 1: to get those more more caring communal traits come in.
Speaker 1: Those don't happen, and in fact that you get to
Speaker 1: the opposite. So you get the person you know, hitting
Speaker 1: on your friends, or you know, being dismissed, ave, dismissive
Speaker 1: or manipulative, or you know, telling you how to dress
Speaker 1: so you look good when you go out together, criticizing you,
Speaker 1: all sorts of negative things. You you know, you you
Speaker 1: wondered for a while what you did wrong to change
Speaker 1: the person, and then eventually you bail or he bails
Speaker 1: to the front. Some of the younger or more attractive,
Speaker 1: I think she is, she too, But yeah, differences their
Speaker 1: main effects. You know, people are narcissistic are more likely
Speaker 1: to be men. But we don't find that many interaction
Speaker 1: effects in relationships. What does that mean to the everyday listener?
Speaker 1: You mean most people are just doing two way interactions
Speaker 1: in their car driving. Narcissistic men and narcissistic women are
Speaker 1: very similar in how they act, but men tend to
Speaker 1: be more narcissistic. And I think, though I don't have
Speaker 1: any information about this, as women care a little more
Speaker 1: about the communal stuff, so they might have more negative effects.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I've talked to it, and this is
Speaker 1: purely anecdotal. A lot of guys are native narcissistic women
Speaker 1: dating not marriage. You know, younger guys and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: she was narcissistic, but she was hot, and they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: well that that's fine then, right. And women, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, in the personal stuff, at least in dating
Speaker 1: the marriage. I've talked to plenty of men who've had
Speaker 1: narcissistic wives and it's been a real disaster. So it's
Speaker 1: I think maybe with men it's that higher level of
Speaker 1: commitment where you get a problem. Has anyone looked at
Speaker 1: sex differences in grandiose versus vulnerable narcissism? Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: don't find much of a difference in vulnerable. It's got more.
Speaker 1: It's it's because you have much more neuroticism, and women
Speaker 1: tend to be more neurotic than men, so you don't
Speaker 1: really see the difference there you deal with the grandiose.
Speaker 1: I want to clarify what you're saying. You're saying you
Speaker 1: don't see many sex differences in vulnerable, but you see
Speaker 1: more of the sex differences in grandiose. Absolutely interesting, right,
Speaker 1: So I thought it might even be reversed though in vulnerable,
Speaker 1: like the word females are more or vulnerable narcists. I
Speaker 1: don't know. Oh, and I think that would make sense
Speaker 1: because there are those you know, there are sex differences
Speaker 1: in neuroticism that are pretty substantial. I'm talking to averages here,
Speaker 1: you know. But no, there is a big meta analysis
Speaker 1: on it, and I don't think there are any differences
Speaker 1: in vulnerable narcissism. Okay, very interesting. Okay, So I want
Speaker 1: to you know, wrap this interview because you've been so
Speaker 1: generous with your time, But could you get some practical
Speaker 1: tips for people, like on how to maybe spot a
Speaker 1: narciss and kind of avoid them if they want to
Speaker 1: or yeah, do you have any practical tips? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean the spotting of narcissist is such an it's a
Speaker 1: challenging question. Like I said that the covert or vulnerable
Speaker 1: forms are just hard to spot. Those are just I
Speaker 1: don't have any great secret for that. With the grandiose
Speaker 1: types you see, you know, you see people who are
Speaker 1: a little more self promotional, a little more attention seeking,
Speaker 1: and you might get some hints at that to that
Speaker 1: high level of confidence. Unfortunately, you're probably going to find
Speaker 1: that attractive in people. So often when I find people
Speaker 1: I really like, I think, oh, that's a warning sign.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how bad I am. When I find
Speaker 1: leaders I like, I'm like a warning sign. I think
Speaker 1: one of the best things to do if you want
Speaker 1: to understand people is the best predictor of you know, behaviors,
Speaker 1: past behavior, and so look at their history and if
Speaker 1: they've been narcissistic in the past, if you've seen it
Speaker 1: with other relationships or in other leadership positions, they're probably
Speaker 1: going to keep doing the same thing. So I think
Speaker 1: that's part of the safest route to go rather than
Speaker 1: using your gut. Great I thought another question. I want
Speaker 1: to ask you, what is the difference between narcissism and psychopathy.
Speaker 1: That's a great question. They're they're very they're very similar,
Speaker 1: and they and they have similar issues. And in narcissism
Speaker 1: sometimes we have this more vulnerable for and more grandiose,
Speaker 1: and in psychopathy they oft them of what they call
Speaker 1: maybe a factor one and a factor two that that are,
Speaker 1: you know, the factor two psychopathy is sort of like
Speaker 1: vulnerable narcisism. But in general I think psychopathy has more
Speaker 1: impulsivity than narcissism. Does that people, you know, psychopathic can
Speaker 1: be narcissistic, but often more impulsive, and that's impulsivity is
Speaker 1: what gets them in trouble. Other than that, they're very
Speaker 1: very similar depending on which definition you you you look at,
Speaker 1: Some definitions of psychopathy really include narcissism. Is there this
Speaker 1: whying element of psychopathy as well? That you know? I mean,
Speaker 1: because there's a there's the hair checklist, and yeah, I
Speaker 1: wonder like I'd love to go through every single item
Speaker 1: on the checklist with you and you tell me what
Speaker 1: is really narcissism and what's really narcissm and what uniquely psychopathy.
Speaker 1: Let's do that someday. It's that impulsivity piece, though, if somebody,
Speaker 1: you know, somebody's an you know, psychopathic, you know, bunks
Speaker 1: you on the edge to steal your shoes because you
Speaker 1: want some of the narcissists gets a job, becomes your
Speaker 1: boss and then makes you give him your shoes in
Speaker 1: front of your girlfriend, so it's a self control that
Speaker 1: seems to separate the two, right. Hey, hey man, I
Speaker 1: really appreciate you taking a time of chat with me today,
Speaker 1: and I recommend people check out your research and your book.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Oh, thanks for having me appreciate it. Scott,
Speaker 1: have a great one you too. All Right, thanks for
Speaker 1: listening to The Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott Barry Kaufman.
Speaker 1: I hope you found this episode just as an informative
Speaker 1: and thought provoking as I did. If you don't like
Speaker 1: to read the show notes for this episode or here
Speaker 1: past episodes, you can go to the Psychology Podcast dot com.