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Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast where we

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Speaker 1: cover the big money issues in the world of sports.

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Speaker 1: And today we are bringing in Bloomberg's Jason Kelly and

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Speaker 1: Vanessa Perdomo, who have a news series on Bloomberg Originals

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Speaker 1: called Next in Sports. What is the premise of the show, guys,

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Speaker 1: because it's not just what's next in the NFL or

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Speaker 1: the MLS, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean, thank you for having us. First

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Speaker 2: of all, it's fun to get a chance to talk

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Speaker 2: about our work.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: The conceit of this is I think actually pretty simple,

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Speaker 2: which is we kept hearing about all these different things

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Speaker 2: that were happening, you know, whether it was pickleball or

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Speaker 2: sports you've never heard of, and we just wanted to

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Speaker 2: kind of go out and play them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just an excuse to go play some sports.

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Speaker 2: And we also saw that like these big money people

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Speaker 2: that we know, you know, you mentioned, you know, the

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Speaker 2: big money in sports. We saw big investors and big

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Speaker 2: athletes you know, taking interest in all these things, and

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Speaker 2: then we just kind of went out and did it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And like you hear, big people like Lebron James

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Speaker 5: and Tom Brady and all these people are investing into

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Speaker 5: pickball teams and you're like, wait, why why are they

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Speaker 5: doing that? You know, so you have to dive in

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Speaker 5: and see it for yourself kind of a thing. And

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Speaker 5: it is really fun to play, but going there and

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Speaker 5: kind of immersing yourself in what their league is, yeah,

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Speaker 5: was a little bit different.

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Speaker 3: And I think, I mean, you know this really well. Scar.

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Speaker 2: I mean everything we see is sort of through a

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Speaker 2: business lens, and so we saw that all this money

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Speaker 2: was chasing this stuff, and so we went to find

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Speaker 2: out what it was all about.

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Speaker 1: And of course we've got the perfect people to do

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Speaker 1: it too, because Jason, you've spent years covering PE, and

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Speaker 1: let's face it, PE was ahead of the curve and

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Speaker 1: investing in sports. Vanessa, you're a former Division one athlete.

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Speaker 1: You've gotten an instant rapport with all the athletes that

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Speaker 1: you interview. Jason, you're not an athlete. You're not a

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Speaker 1: DIV one athlete.

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Speaker 3: Right, I wouldn't say I'm not an athlete. I mean

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 2: Not play D one sports. Thank you for pointing that out.

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Speaker 2: That has pointed out out to me often by my

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Speaker 2: co ho St who is very quick to flex that

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Speaker 2: and rightly so, she's really good at sports. Which is

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Speaker 2: sometimes a bit a bit intimidating, but yeah, we think

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Speaker 2: it's a very good partnership.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so the first episode you did, you mentioned pickleball.

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Speaker 1: Obviously that's where you went. It's kind of clearly the

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Speaker 1: most obvious next in sport phenomenon. What did you what

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Speaker 1: surprised you about pickleball? Vanessa?

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Speaker 5: I think what surprised me about pickball was like, you know,

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Speaker 5: you hear a lot about people playing and it's huge,

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Speaker 5: but you're trying to figure out who are the professionals.

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Speaker 5: And I think what surprised me about it was the

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Speaker 5: arena that we were in. You know, they're making it

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Speaker 5: very professional, but at the same time it's in this

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Speaker 5: big complex where there's this massive tournament going on, but

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Speaker 5: then there's also just like lessons and people playing kind

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Speaker 5: of in the background. So I think what surprised me

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Speaker 5: was that they weren't able to connect the worlds.

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Speaker 4: The worlds haven't connected yet where there's a ton of.

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Speaker 5: People playing and they love it, but they're not going

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Speaker 5: over to the professional court just so yet.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I was surprised at how easy it

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Speaker 2: was to play. So my first introduction to it was

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Speaker 2: Brian Levine, who's a former Goldnzax partner who's been up

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Speaker 2: and will very soon sort of roll off of this job,

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Speaker 2: but has been the interim CEO of Major League Pickleball.

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Speaker 2: I went to his place in Bocra Tone earlier in

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Speaker 2: the year. He handed me a paddle. We got out

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Speaker 2: on the court. We were knocking it around a little bit,

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Speaker 2: chit chatting, and he's like, all right, you're ready, that's

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Speaker 2: it after ten minutes, and I was like what And

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Speaker 2: so sure enough, Like we jumped into a doubles match

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Speaker 2: at that time, and I did completely hold my own

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Speaker 2: because I'm a quasi athlete.

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Speaker 4: Very Jason. He actually beat me most of the times

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Speaker 4: we played.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of times you got injured winning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I actually had to injure myself, put my body on

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Speaker 5: the line to get the w.

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Speaker 2: By the way, and you know, a lot of our

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Speaker 2: producers they were like, guys, seriously, like the sun's going debt,

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Speaker 2: Like give it up. And then we had members of

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Speaker 2: our crew who wanted to challenge us at doubles.

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Speaker 1: You what got sucked into it?

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Speaker 3: Oh? One hundredsly sucked in, completely suckled.

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Speaker 5: We had to put We played like hours of this

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Speaker 5: you know, on the shoot. I think it's definitely the

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Speaker 5: most we played one of the sports for sure, because

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Speaker 5: it is so easy and it is really fun.

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Speaker 2: Well, and what's also interesting is, and we mentioned this

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Speaker 2: in the piece, we were able to get an airbnb

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Speaker 2: for the day to sort of shoot at, which came

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Speaker 2: with a pickleball court. Like Jay, It wasn't sort of

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Speaker 2: like taped out on something else. It was a bespoke

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Speaker 2: pickleball court, like in the backyard of this like Scottsdale house, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that you can when Tom was

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Speaker 5: looking for somewhere to shoot, it's you literally type in

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Speaker 5: Airbnb pickaball court like they are made for this now.

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Speaker 1: So that brings me to an interesting question because you

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Speaker 1: guys in the video you do show how you're you've

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Speaker 1: got like masking tape out and you're ready to section

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Speaker 1: off a court to make it a pickleball court. The

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Speaker 1: infrastructure is really easy to set up here, right you don't. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there are pickleball courts, but you could also convert things

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Speaker 1: into a pickleball court.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that's one of the things that happened. And

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Speaker 2: we discovered this in talking to people and honestly, like

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Speaker 2: people in our lives have done this. During COVID, it

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Speaker 2: was you know, a very socially distanced kind of friendly

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Speaker 2: sport that you could literally, you know, tape out in

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Speaker 2: your driveway and you know, it was a way to

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Speaker 2: sort of get outside and not go crazy. And now

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Speaker 2: it is relatively easy to build them. And you're seeing

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Speaker 2: tennis clubs convert to pickle ball, and you're also seeing

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Speaker 2: as we did one afternoon, you know, as you say,

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Speaker 2: like literally went out, we bought like a kit from

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like Dicks, Yeah, Dick's Sporting Goods, and

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Speaker 2: you just like throw it down and you use a

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Speaker 2: tennis net which is not technically like the right height

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Speaker 2: but close enough, but it's close enough and certainly you know,

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Speaker 2: enough to get super competitive about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It definitely worked.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned some of the people who are getting

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Speaker 1: into pickleball. Lebron James is he owns a team Essa

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Speaker 1: or a.

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Speaker 4: Team Yes, he owns the New York Hustle. They were there.

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Speaker 5: They had a lot of fans there and when we

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Speaker 5: talked to you know, the Brian and other people when

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Speaker 5: Lebron announced Who's buying a team? Their their social media

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Speaker 5: what doubled, yea, their impressions doubled their followers. So it's

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Speaker 5: clear that these big names are in it for for

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Speaker 5: money and it helped the.

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Speaker 4: Sport a ton.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and and the celebrification as of it

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Speaker 2: is I think really important to both promoting the sport

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Speaker 2: and certainly they're hoping that that will drive the pro league.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we also had a chance during this I mean,

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Speaker 2: by the way, like it sounds ridiculous we're talking about this,

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Speaker 2: this really is our job like that, this.

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Speaker 1: Is like, I know, it's very jealous the whole time.

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Speaker 2: But one morning we went out and we played doubles.

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Speaker 2: We each picked a side, and uh, Vanessa was matched

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Speaker 2: up with Drew Brees and I was mentioning.

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Speaker 4: I was drafted by Drew Brees.

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Speaker 3: Actually did that work out for you?

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Speaker 4: It didn't work.

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Speaker 5: Every Jason and Larry Fitzgerald did beat us?

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Speaker 3: We did? We did.

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Speaker 1: That is some impressive matchup there. So here's the other thing.

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Speaker 1: This is obviously something I was born out of the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: It existed beforehand, but it really got popular during the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: Do other countries also play pickleball?

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Speaker 3: It is largely in American sport.

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Speaker 2: It was invented in the state of Washington, and I

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Speaker 2: mean it it also kind of feels American, don't you think.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it totally does.

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Speaker 5: And I think that in that way, you know, the

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Speaker 5: quirkiness behind is very American. You know, you have at

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Speaker 5: the tournament pickle stands and things like that and circus

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Speaker 5: people kind of they're trying to make it like this,

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Speaker 5: you know, an event, but that's very quirky, that's very

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Speaker 5: American sport.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It also, I mean it started as really a sport

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Speaker 2: in retirement, like like retirement villages. You know, it's huge

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Speaker 2: in Florida, and then it sort of got handed down.

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Speaker 2: I mean one of the really fun things that we

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Speaker 2: did actually at the Airbnb was we got to meet

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Speaker 2: Annalie Waters and her mom, who were like the best partners.

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Speaker 1: This is a mother daughter team.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, another daughter team number one in the world.

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Speaker 5: The daughter's number one in the world, but they were

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Speaker 5: number one team as well, and they've been they've won

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Speaker 5: a ton of tournaments together.

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Speaker 2: And they got into it. I mean, they were both

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Speaker 2: very accomplished tennis players. Mean, Anna Lee as like a

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Speaker 2: I don't know, a twelve year old, was a very

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Speaker 2: accomplished tennis player, and they started playing I think with

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Speaker 2: their with her grandparents, right, I mean that was how

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Speaker 2: they were first introduced to it, and then she got

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Speaker 2: really good and now I mean she's probably she was

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Speaker 2: just on the cover of Sports Illustrate.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and Annelie did say to me, and when we

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Speaker 5: were talking that, she said, you know, she was introduced

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Speaker 5: by her grandfather, but and now even as the number

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Speaker 5: one in the world, she can still play with him

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Speaker 5: and go one hundred percent and he's able to rally.

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Speaker 3: Really, yeah, were you able to I?

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Speaker 4: You know, I did get a point. I rallied a

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Speaker 4: little bit, but it was a more of a lesson. Okay,

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Speaker 4: that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: It's really inclusive the sport, right because you could be young,

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Speaker 1: you could be older, and you know that doesn't have

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Speaker 1: any bearing on whether you can play it or not.

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Speaker 5: Their tagline is eight to eighty can play this sport.

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Speaker 5: And that's what we heard a lot when we were

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Speaker 5: down there in Arizona.

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Speaker 2: And I will say, like, having played, you know with

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Speaker 2: some really good people like Brian Levine, who picked it

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Speaker 2: up during the pandemic and then you know, went on

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Speaker 2: to sort of put this whole deal together.

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Speaker 3: From Major League pick a ball.

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Speaker 2: He's really good and I played with him a couple

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Speaker 2: of times, and I mean, you can't get next level

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Speaker 2: with it. I mean, like Drew Brees was insane, Larry

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Speaker 2: Fitzgerald was insane.

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Speaker 5: Then you know, the funniest part about that when we

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Speaker 5: played doubles with them is after we played doubles, it's all,

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Speaker 5: you know, nice and they're being nice to us whatever.

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Speaker 5: But they they're like nice, they're being honest, and then

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Speaker 5: they're like, you know what, can you guys just step

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Speaker 5: off the court for a second.

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Speaker 4: And Larry and Drew.

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Speaker 5: Went at it with each other and their teams were like, guys,

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Speaker 5: you're your team's about to play in the really.

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Speaker 4: Wait wait wait one more point? And they were going crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they were going off And I mean and

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Speaker 2: you and so you really can There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: finesse to it. It's not as much of a power game,

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Speaker 2: but I mean the spin that Drew Brees was putting

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Speaker 2: on his serve, I believe Larry Fitzgerald used a technical

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Speaker 2: term which was stank. I mean he was sank on

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Speaker 2: it and technically but it was.

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Speaker 3: But it's serious. I mean, and so I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess one of the questions I have

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Speaker 2: about this is a from a professional perspective, is can

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Speaker 2: it get good enough that it is compelling like television

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Speaker 2: and enough to draw a crowd to watch it.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: That's the That's the thing that's tough because with participatory sports,

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Speaker 5: it's hard to make that leap too from like player

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Speaker 5: to fan, and I think you need to build out.

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Speaker 5: You know, there's reason Amily is on the cover of

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Speaker 5: Sports Illustrated. They need her to be the face of

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Speaker 5: it and to have such a young face as great.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's because she can play forever and considering

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Speaker 5: how you can play, Like when I talked to her,

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Speaker 5: she was like, I don't know, I could play till

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Speaker 5: forty two.

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Speaker 4: I really don't know.

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Speaker 1: How much has she won in prize money for playing pickleball?

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Speaker 1: Do we know?

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Speaker 4: That is a great question. I do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think we know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, she's, you know, certainly one of the most

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Speaker 2: prize people. I mean, she's getting endorsements. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: really where the money's gonna come from. It's not gonna

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Speaker 2: come from the prize money. I think they're gonna have.

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Speaker 4: What dollars overall prize.

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Speaker 5: But I will say that she has made enough money

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Speaker 5: that she won't have to have another job.

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Speaker 4: Like, you know, she's only sixteen, so she probably wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have had one as a sixteen year old.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but she she's not gonna be bagging groceries college tuition, yeah,

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Speaker 2: exactly right, right, Yeah, And so so I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the through this whole series, I mean, that

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Speaker 2: was one of the things that I mean, Vanessa zero

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Speaker 2: doing not exactly right, Like, I feel like that was

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Speaker 2: one of the questions that we kept asking people, especially

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Speaker 2: with these nascent sports. It's like, so, can you make

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Speaker 2: a living doing this? And in some cases they can.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in the case of pickaball is, certainly some

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Speaker 2: folks can. In the case of other sports that we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about later in the season, maybe not so much.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So it's very American. People love playing it, and

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Speaker 1: the big money has been getting in as well. I

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Speaker 1: know you guys talked to Mark Lasry Jason at the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg invest conference, of course, big hedge fund manager, who

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Speaker 1: was a part owner of the Milwaukee Bucks, sold that

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Speaker 1: what did he have to say about pick a ball?

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Speaker 2: He loves pickleball, and I mean what he said, I

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Speaker 2: mean he's now set it a couple of times publicly

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Speaker 2: that you know, on a on a return basis in

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Speaker 2: terms of you know, multiples of money. Pickleball is one

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Speaker 2: of the best things he's ever invested. I mean, he

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Speaker 2: bought a team for I think he's said this publicly

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars and now that team could be

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Speaker 2: worth you know, five, maybe even ten million dollars. Now

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Speaker 2: it's not the billions of dollars that one can make

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Speaker 2: as he did, you know, selling a buying and selling

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Speaker 2: a steak in an NBA franchise. But you know, I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, to go back to your very first question,

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Speaker 2: I think that was one of the other things that

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Speaker 2: we were really looking for as we talked about these

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Speaker 2: different sports, and what we wanted to zero in on

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Speaker 2: is you know, what's growing fast? Where is there some

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Speaker 2: upside potential because you know, for investors out there, nobody

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Speaker 2: can just like rock up and you know, buy the

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Speaker 2: New York Giants.

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Speaker 1: You know, if it were even on sale.

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Speaker 2: If it were even on say exactly like and they

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Speaker 2: never come up for sale, and you need to be

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Speaker 2: a billionaire just to like get in the door. You know,

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Speaker 2: these are sports where you know, at least for a time,

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Speaker 2: people are able to get in.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like an incredible episode, and I really recommend

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Speaker 1: people to take a look at it because if you

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Speaker 1: love pickleball, you'll love learning how it came about and

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Speaker 1: the big money that's moving through it. Jason Kelly and

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Speaker 1: Vanessa Perdomo thank you so much, and their next in

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Speaker 1: Sports series premieres Wednesdays on Bloomberg Television at ten pm Eastern,

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Speaker 1: and it's available through YouTube and Bloomberg dot Com the

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Speaker 1: following day, where you can also catch up on previous installments.

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Speaker 1: It's on demand anytime you want. This is Bloomberg