Speaker 1: This is Me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for
Speaker 1: every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer, Yanny, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you noticed, but I have a um
Speaker 1: giant bear rug over my last I brought this, so
Speaker 1: this is the bear I got this spring. Yanni has
Speaker 1: often criticized bear rugs for what reason and just general
Speaker 1: bear amounts, bearmounts, and bear rugs. Yeah, because their mouths
Speaker 1: are open and snarling and growling and making them look
Speaker 1: vicious and mean. And I feel like when we see
Speaker 1: bears and most likely bears of their lives, they're not
Speaker 1: in those uh their faces, they're not in that position.
Speaker 1: Their faces look more like this guy. Yeah, this guy,
Speaker 1: this looks like a bear. Yeah, not growling. Um. So
Speaker 1: Clay Nucom hosted the Bear Grease podcast, introduced me to
Speaker 1: his tax the Nervous Buddy, Uh John Hayes Hayes tax
Speaker 1: nermy studio which is a Libby Montana, and Clay brought
Speaker 1: like Clay delivered my bear over to him and we
Speaker 1: had a We were driving down the road with the
Speaker 1: bear still in the back, just a green hide, and
Speaker 1: I was saying to him, why are your bears always uh?
Speaker 1: Why are there miles always growling? Um? And he was
Speaker 1: saying something paraphrase a little bit. But the gist I
Speaker 1: got from his people do like that. It Also, it's
Speaker 1: easy to do it, easier than the clothes mouth somehow.
Speaker 1: It's easier to make them look normal, And there's a
Speaker 1: lot of forms that. There's a lot of forms to
Speaker 1: do that, but there aren't forms readily available for rugs
Speaker 1: to do it otherwise. So he he started to develop
Speaker 1: how to do a close mouth bear by using a
Speaker 1: form meant for a different application. So he was already
Speaker 1: doing close mouth bears. There was enough demand for it
Speaker 1: that he was working on it before you brought. No,
Speaker 1: he doesn't. He says, like, I do them, but I
Speaker 1: don't buy. He don't buy. I feel like, if I'm
Speaker 1: screwing this up, John, you can cut Well, we're gonna
Speaker 1: have you call in. No, I just come into the
Speaker 1: studio and you can explain it better. If I'm screwing
Speaker 1: this up. They don't sell like what you need to
Speaker 1: do this. He buys a form for a different purpose
Speaker 1: and kind of manipulates it and changes it in order
Speaker 1: to be able to do this on a rug. So
Speaker 1: this bear, you can see his chin, mouth everything. He's
Speaker 1: not growling. And I have three other I gave one
Speaker 1: away too in my house right now where they're all growling.
Speaker 1: And you're right, I've looked at a pile of bears,
Speaker 1: most of them never seen one like that, or they're
Speaker 1: eating some grass I like that. But when I get mine,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have his head even sinking more into the ruck,
Speaker 1: a little lower profile. So I'm gonna have him cut
Speaker 1: it like maybe like right at the top lip and
Speaker 1: go straight back and even have it, uh just like
Speaker 1: sink into the rug a little bit more. You follow me,
Speaker 1: I'm following, Yeah, And I was gonna. I thought when
Speaker 1: you were first showing it how it was kind of uh,
Speaker 1: it's got a little gift to it, like there's not
Speaker 1: quite a pillow in there. But I believe Clay did
Speaker 1: a video with John Hayes, John Hayes name, Uh where
Speaker 1: John makes like what he calls like a soft taxidermy kyo.
Speaker 1: Did you see a little video about the coyote. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that thing looked cool because then it's like it
Speaker 1: becomes more practical because it's like, oh, there's a coyote
Speaker 1: on the couch. Oh, but you can also lay your
Speaker 1: head on him and take a little nap, and it
Speaker 1: be kind of cool to have that all through that
Speaker 1: bear hide. Oh yeah, I would like that. Uh seth
Speaker 1: if you had to rate how close did that come
Speaker 1: to get in a wolf? If you okay, no, here,
Speaker 1: here's the thing. Ten as you got it, one as
Speaker 1: you never saw it. Oh man. So well, there's a
Speaker 1: couple of factors that go into it. One would be
Speaker 1: you're shooting at long distance. Okay, let's say extremely good. Okay,
Speaker 1: I would say let's say moderate. I would say, uh,
Speaker 1: you came, you came really close. I would put you
Speaker 1: at a like an eight three. Oh really, yeah, because
Speaker 1: if you were when that wolf was standing up there
Speaker 1: still for all that time time, and you weren't set up,
Speaker 1: just imagine if you were set up at that point
Speaker 1: in time, you could have gotten a shot. So we
Speaker 1: were sheep hunting in Alaska. Um, I was cheaping up
Speaker 1: my brother Danny, who's a residence. So we're able to hunt,
Speaker 1: Like in Alaska, there's this thing like second degree kindred
Speaker 1: um that that you can hunt without a guide for
Speaker 1: a species that normally require a guide if you have
Speaker 1: a close relative that lives there and you're hunting with
Speaker 1: that person. Um grizzlies, mountain goats, and sheep um. So
Speaker 1: if they're white or tend towards whiteish, you have to
Speaker 1: have a guide or second degree kindred. So I can
Speaker 1: hunt with my brother. And we were hunting and we
Speaker 1: went up to that we were going up to this
Speaker 1: basin um that like you're going up this pass, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't really guess it's up there. Canyon gets real narrowed
Speaker 1: as a big glacier in it, But all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: it's like it's giant basin and we slip up in there,
Speaker 1: and it had snowed the night before. This is just
Speaker 1: what I a week ago, two weeks ago, snow the
Speaker 1: night before, and we get there, your sheep tracks running
Speaker 1: everywhere in that new snow, and I'm like, god, we
Speaker 1: blew them out, Like how that happened? Like you must
Speaker 1: have spooked him? And then wet looking at all the tracks. Really,
Speaker 1: there's wolf tracks running all over zigzagging around, and then
Speaker 1: we find where all the sheep went and hid rams used.
Speaker 1: Everybody's sitting on a rock pile in a way that
Speaker 1: they normally wouldn't like arrange themselves. And it's because like
Speaker 1: they clearly like I got into a big line and
Speaker 1: went up on top of a cliff and were sat
Speaker 1: up there, and I don't know how long we wandered,
Speaker 1: around an hour. And also there's the wolves up on
Speaker 1: the other ridge. I started wailing on a predator call.
Speaker 1: And I can't really say this for certain or not,
Speaker 1: but they like gave a look or didn't just happen
Speaker 1: to look but didn't really care. No, they didn't care
Speaker 1: at all. I feel like they gave a look. Oh,
Speaker 1: they gave a look. Yeah they were. There was a
Speaker 1: gray one and a black one and they were like
Speaker 1: up on this ridge and then they'd like disappear from
Speaker 1: the ridge and then all of a sudden, you'd like
Speaker 1: see a head pop up and look, did they know
Speaker 1: you guys were there? I don't think they didn't know either.
Speaker 1: There yards away. I don't think they knew they were Oh.
Speaker 1: It was also weird as these are sheep, I don't
Speaker 1: I'm not saying the only hunt sheep. They were hunting sheep. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: their whole groove was they were hunting sheep. But the
Speaker 1: weird thing is, all of a sudden, he kicked up
Speaker 1: a u one you that ran from the They kicked
Speaker 1: her out of the craggy stuff and she ran down
Speaker 1: into an open bowl and they didn't chase her. M
Speaker 1: I'm like, that seems like the the whole plan. That's
Speaker 1: that's what you want to where they can get her
Speaker 1: what they keep on doing? What we couldn't tell because
Speaker 1: they dropped out of you. I would have thought we
Speaker 1: were like get ready. Yeah, I was thinking that they're
Speaker 1: just gonna come chase her, and they're gonna come, you know,
Speaker 1: close to us. It didn't they didn't like something. But
Speaker 1: I got all lined up. Um, in the unit we're in,
Speaker 1: you don't even need there's no locket for non resident
Speaker 1: only need a locking tag. I was gonna have. I
Speaker 1: was gonna make breakfast sausage film, an episode of pardoned
Speaker 1: my plate and have that big old wolf hide all
Speaker 1: in one. That have been your first one, right, that
Speaker 1: black that black one is pretty. I was literally I
Speaker 1: told my brother, my brother has zero interesting, like he
Speaker 1: lives in Alaska like zero interested grizzlies. He likes him,
Speaker 1: but hunting him like not. It just doesn't even register
Speaker 1: with them. Zero interesting wolves wolf hunting. I said, dude,
Speaker 1: you can think of me like Cruella de Ville. Man,
Speaker 1: I want that wolf hide so bad. He does not
Speaker 1: get it, like, doesn't get it. Could you tell by
Speaker 1: the tracks, like how they were hunting them or no?
Speaker 1: Like do you think those they stumbled upon those sheep
Speaker 1: or do you think they were following them for a
Speaker 1: while or can you not? Here's my theory based on
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing. Ahead Um, I understand from conversations with the
Speaker 1: bush Pilot that there are always a bunch of us
Speaker 1: in that basin always. I think that they have a
Speaker 1: little sort of checklist, a little mental map, and they
Speaker 1: come in there and whatever periodically and run around Raise Hill.
Speaker 1: But this is just based on nothing. Yeah, well it
Speaker 1: sounds solid, Lamb Now, I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah. Those
Speaker 1: wolves are definitely like ridge runners, like they're up there
Speaker 1: looking for sheep. And I felt that when they didn't
Speaker 1: chase the one, Danny postulated that they must have killed
Speaker 1: the lamb. Oh, and we went up there and looked,
Speaker 1: and you would have definitely known it was there because
Speaker 1: the snow and we couldn't find what was going on.
Speaker 1: But then weirdly we find not near not there a
Speaker 1: ways away, found a dead lamb him a little ram lamb.
Speaker 1: Is that a thing? Yea, a ram lamb hadn't been touched.
Speaker 1: We're going down his cut and I'm like, that's a
Speaker 1: weird place for a snow patch still be lingering because
Speaker 1: there's no snow around to its death. Listen, man, I
Speaker 1: gave it like an amateur knee crops. I gave it
Speaker 1: an amateur knee cropsy and determined that there were no um,
Speaker 1: no visible injuries. But I feel that it's rear left
Speaker 1: leg rear right leg was busted at the femur based
Speaker 1: on a very amateur that being my first ever doll
Speaker 1: sheep lamb knee cropsy, I feel that that's that that
Speaker 1: leg pretty wonky and comfortable, hadn't even had its eyes
Speaker 1: pecked yet. Oh wow, so fresh in fact that we
Speaker 1: kicked a you. We're going down out of there and
Speaker 1: we're like kind of like out of sheep country and
Speaker 1: here comes to you and we're like, what the hell
Speaker 1: is she doing? Like why, like won you in that
Speaker 1: weird place and we didn't see her with it, but
Speaker 1: she left that spot within a like not a lot
Speaker 1: of precision because you just couldn't see down that area
Speaker 1: at that time. But anyways, one came out. It was
Speaker 1: weird enough that we commented on it and then got
Speaker 1: down in that zone and there was that dead lamb.
Speaker 1: So maybe you guys spooked it and spoke no because
Speaker 1: its hair was starting to slip fresh enough that you
Speaker 1: guys considered considered well no, because I didn't want to
Speaker 1: get you can't do that kind of stuff. I don't
Speaker 1: think you can do that, Yeah, with a sheep. I'm
Speaker 1: sure they'd probably frown on that. Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: you can be like, oh, I like I got a
Speaker 1: bunch of sheep meat because I found I think that
Speaker 1: they would say, like, that's not your I don't know
Speaker 1: how you'd take possession of that thing. I noticed when
Speaker 1: if you're done, when you're done doing your like little
Speaker 1: examination there, my clothes were colded in hair. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: saw your pants cheap hair all over him. I was like,
Speaker 1: that's gonna be a tough one to explain if I
Speaker 1: actually I actually we were waiting to get picked up
Speaker 1: I actually went through and tried to remove it all
Speaker 1: because it'd be like a trooper like, but so why
Speaker 1: are you coding and cheap hair again? I'm like, listen, hey,
Speaker 1: quick survey here in the in the room. If you
Speaker 1: guys ever get a bear rug or bare amount done,
Speaker 1: you're gonna go close mouth or open mouth, and Steve,
Speaker 1: I'm going closed. I like that one. I don't. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't I know about your idea about like like that,
Speaker 1: like seeing the mouth. I know a guy has multiple
Speaker 1: open mouse and like all the all the teeth are missing,
Speaker 1: the tongue is broken out just because they're boxing like
Speaker 1: it's on the ground. They just boxally kick them with
Speaker 1: their choe or whatever breaks teeth out. My kids jumping
Speaker 1: around on those, I'm always afraid they're gonna bust the
Speaker 1: ears off. That's why I hang them up on the
Speaker 1: wall because they're like riding on it using the ears
Speaker 1: as handles and stuff. It's like they can't put up
Speaker 1: with that kind of stuff. I was gonna say, Steve,
Speaker 1: have you ever seen the mounts that are They're they're
Speaker 1: pretty much a rug and they're the rug shell, but
Speaker 1: there's no felt and they're meant to hang on the
Speaker 1: wall like some people call a trapper's mount. Is one
Speaker 1: of those with a white tailed buck? Oh that's sick.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, that's what I would do. I like
Speaker 1: those barbars. I don't. I would not do the felt
Speaker 1: not a felt person. Okay, all right? Joined today by
Speaker 1: Rick Hutton. Yeah, freshly married? Yeah like that? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's awesome. I like the married life. What what is that?
Speaker 1: How if you had to rate his best man speech? Yeah,
Speaker 1: one to ten. I think he did it. I'll give
Speaker 1: him a solid nine. Yeah, he sure gave himself and nine. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I asked him, I said you did anybody laughs a
Speaker 1: few times? Yeah. I even told him like because I didn't.
Speaker 1: We went into the wedding. I was like, Steve or
Speaker 1: I was like, Seth, I didn't even talk to you
Speaker 1: really bad. I was like, but do you want to
Speaker 1: do the best man's speech? You don't have to if
Speaker 1: you don't want. He's like all the day of the wedding.
Speaker 1: I think it was like two days, but two days.
Speaker 1: Just have that he's getting up there, because that would
Speaker 1: be that would dishearten him. Yeah, no, no, you want
Speaker 1: to give best man speech. I even said like, I
Speaker 1: didn't even I just assumed I never talked to you
Speaker 1: about it though, But do you want to do this?
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh yeah, I got something planned everything.
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, yeah, man, he did good. He made
Speaker 1: everyone laugh, was good, so I was happy with it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how are things over? F h F gear good? Really busy,
Speaker 1: extremely busy. We got a lot of cool stuff in prototype,
Speaker 1: a lot of growth happening. But it's August. It's so whatever,
Speaker 1: busiest months of the year. What's the most exciting thing
Speaker 1: you guys got coming up? Whatever? Now? Future think of
Speaker 1: what I can talk about. They don't want to say anything. Yeah, listen, man,
Speaker 1: that's that's an offline conversation. But I gotta adjust your
Speaker 1: thinking on that. Okay, alright, it's fine. If you gave
Speaker 1: me five minutes, I could. I feel like I would
Speaker 1: In three minutes, I feel like I would make you
Speaker 1: reconsider everything you think about that. So it's not so
Speaker 1: much my thinking too. It's top down stuff being told
Speaker 1: than two just making sure that thinking. Okay, well, let's
Speaker 1: let's let's chat about that. Yeah, let's chat about that. Um,
Speaker 1: we have some cool stuff coming out for fall more
Speaker 1: along another accessory for our chest rig will have that
Speaker 1: more diversify the use of that. It's more in that
Speaker 1: foul kind of hunting realm uh. And then some backpack
Speaker 1: accessory that you can use. So we have that come
Speaker 1: out fall here probably a couple of weeks after this
Speaker 1: podcast gets out there, and then twenty January of twenty
Speaker 1: two will be a big year or a big time
Speaker 1: for us. Will be launching a bunch of new products,
Speaker 1: uh for the more for the rifle hunter. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it'll be real exciting. We're finalizing a lot of that now,
Speaker 1: so excellent. Joined also by Brody. Hello, who's got a
Speaker 1: tell everybody how many legs your bear has? Brodie three
Speaker 1: and a half. No, but I'm gonna send it off
Speaker 1: to that guy. Um. Yeah, I shot a bear last
Speaker 1: fall that I still haven't sent the hide anywhere in Colorado.
Speaker 1: It is a big, big bore, big head, lots of
Speaker 1: fat um. But he had he was missing the lower half.
Speaker 1: I gotta think about this lower half of his left
Speaker 1: front leg and it basically at what would be the
Speaker 1: elbow on a person, and it was just all healed
Speaker 1: over recorded and fat. Yeah, Like I think I got
Speaker 1: four gallons that rendered fat off him. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean you had some of it. Um, He's like,
Speaker 1: I actually like it better without this foot. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: like totally healed over. It looked like it had been
Speaker 1: surgically removed. You know, there was just fur growing on
Speaker 1: its skin there um for growing on it. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: when I took it into to get it checked in,
Speaker 1: obviously it's all speculation, like the one the lady who
Speaker 1: checked it in said maybe it was an illegal snare
Speaker 1: when you know it was a cub or maybe a
Speaker 1: boar had ripped its leg off or a hunter had
Speaker 1: shot it years ago, who knows, But it didn't affect him.
Speaker 1: You know, he's an older bear. They figured ten to
Speaker 1: twelve years old. That dude, John Hayes, the tax names
Speaker 1: I was talking to you, I was bragging up. I
Speaker 1: was showing him a picture of a bear I had
Speaker 1: that was seventeen that I got age at seventeen. He
Speaker 1: had a bear come through there that had been aged
Speaker 1: in its thirties. Yeah. I can't remember exactly what I remember.
Speaker 1: I think the oldest documented is something like thirty nine.
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't don't know if that's right, but I
Speaker 1: think that might be right. Yeah, they can get a
Speaker 1: lot older than than ten. Uh. Joined also by Seth
Speaker 1: Morris Folks fresh off of Best Man speech, Phil Taylor
Speaker 1: recently engaged. Yeah, we covered that, We covered down the
Speaker 1: whole episode, but still there's context here for that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good. It's still engaged, still engaged, still feeling it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're making plans, sweet man. And then uh, Janice, who
Speaker 1: a couple of big milestones, drew his first big horn
Speaker 1: tag and ran his first something. That's right, what a
Speaker 1: lucky guy? Tell us now what you're ringing? The Bridge
Speaker 1: or Ridge Run, which is like maybe the kind of
Speaker 1: the most popular, um best known Bozeman local race. Did
Speaker 1: you place in a way that you were satisfied with yourself?
Speaker 1: I wasn't really good going for I didn't have a
Speaker 1: goal around placement. I shouldn't say place. Did you perform
Speaker 1: in a way that satisfied yourself very very much? So
Speaker 1: you gotta describe layout, the specs of the It's roughly
Speaker 1: twenty miles, depends. There's some different routes you can change
Speaker 1: take it at certain points. It's kind of choose your
Speaker 1: own adventure a little bit. But you can be between
Speaker 1: nineteen and twenty miles. I think I probably ran. It
Speaker 1: ran like a nineteen in a quarter mile version. Um.
Speaker 1: And it starts at Fairy Lake the trailhead, and uh,
Speaker 1: you climb up to the pass above Fairy Lakes. I
Speaker 1: don't know the name of the passes, but then you
Speaker 1: go up to Sackage away a peak and then basically
Speaker 1: from there you just run on the actual spine of
Speaker 1: the Bridger Mountains, uh, through Ross Pass, around Ross Peak,
Speaker 1: and then all the way past Bridge or ski Resort,
Speaker 1: Saddle Mountain, Bald Mountain, and then down to the m
Speaker 1: trail head. Um, and uh, you gain about seventy feet
Speaker 1: and I believe you lose about feet in those really
Speaker 1: nineteen miles. Hold you climb that's with ups and down?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah not at one time, No, no, I
Speaker 1: got you, but like total gain? Yeah, how long it
Speaker 1: took me five hours, seventeen minutes. I feel the same way.
Speaker 1: What I'm worried about now is now I feel like,
Speaker 1: now you just didn't smoke me when we're out hiking around.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I did a backpack trip right
Speaker 1: on the heels of that, and I remember thinking myself, it, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, just because you're in running shape doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you're in backpackage. I know. That's the things that I
Speaker 1: always rely on is like, um, there's not it's its
Speaker 1: own thing. Yeah, it's its own thing. A lot of
Speaker 1: times people think that they're good at something else. They
Speaker 1: didn't gonna tear it up. You always do this thing
Speaker 1: where your first time of the year as a sheet
Speaker 1: hunt too, like he come out of gateheart. Yeah, Seth
Speaker 1: is all bragging up all he took it. He took
Speaker 1: it a run in a mile and a half every
Speaker 1: morning with his wife, girlfriend, whatever hell in between. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it helped a lot. I think I felt great during it. Sheep.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah it helps. Yeah. And so okay, so you're
Speaker 1: you're pleased with your performance. I don't want to like people.
Speaker 1: I was hoping for a like around like a five
Speaker 1: and a half hour finished time. You know I did
Speaker 1: it whatever thirteen minutes faster. And how educated was your hope? Well,
Speaker 1: because I had done it on my own couple of
Speaker 1: years prior, and I did it. I did it in
Speaker 1: like six twenty but it was very casual. I was
Speaker 1: I had to carry all my own water. I so
Speaker 1: I carried like ten pounds of water when I did
Speaker 1: it on my own. So I carried a gallon and
Speaker 1: a half of water, um and now we had eight stations.
Speaker 1: The whole event was really cool. Like, I highly recommend
Speaker 1: anybody it's in. Like looking, I don't want you to
Speaker 1: take away my spot next year because they about five
Speaker 1: people five or six hundred people apply and they let
Speaker 1: in three hundred. So it's a lottery to get in
Speaker 1: because you can like the race can only support it's
Speaker 1: a lottery draw. Yeah. Well, like if you've done it
Speaker 1: ten years or more, I think if you're a top place,
Speaker 1: top three place finisher in your age group, there's a
Speaker 1: couple of things that will get you in every year. Umbuddy,
Speaker 1: every buddy Rick Smith is running more than ten times,
Speaker 1: so he's just automatically in at during that five hours.
Speaker 1: How often could you huck a rock and hit another
Speaker 1: person if you ban I probably only ran out of
Speaker 1: five hours. I probably only ran really by myself for
Speaker 1: maybe an hour out in ninety minutes, not much. There's
Speaker 1: usually someone around, somebody around. Yeah, I think we went
Speaker 1: through four or five eight stations, which was great. Like
Speaker 1: a lot of people cheering, helping you on. They really
Speaker 1: take care of you because there's a lot of exposure,
Speaker 1: right when you get up there, the sun's out there,
Speaker 1: the smoke um can be a factor and um. So
Speaker 1: they really they check your BIB number twice at every
Speaker 1: aid station, Like on the way in, there's two different
Speaker 1: groups going okay, number two oh five just came in,
Speaker 1: somebody else marks it, and then ten steps later that
Speaker 1: you didn't peel off the ridge and have a heat somewhere. Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1: And then I actually got held up for five minutes,
Speaker 1: so right there, I'm down to actually like five twelve.
Speaker 1: But at the final eight station, the main like med
Speaker 1: nurse doctor was like, hey, how you feeling. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling great, and she's kind of patting me down.
Speaker 1: She's like, you're not sweating. I'm like, yeah, I'm had
Speaker 1: a big sweater. I'm telling you, I've been like pounding
Speaker 1: the water. I've drink at least six liters of water
Speaker 1: since I started. I feel great. And she's like, nope,
Speaker 1: come back here, and she turned me around and I
Speaker 1: went she had She took me to like this ice
Speaker 1: station and they basically crammed my vest in my shirt
Speaker 1: full of ice and she said take these two other
Speaker 1: pieces holding in your hands and you know, keep going,
Speaker 1: but she would you have done if you just ran
Speaker 1: off in order to keep your time. Oh it's funny
Speaker 1: because like they're like, look, you're not getting top three,
Speaker 1: so just like take care of yourself. That's kind of
Speaker 1: the whole attitude of the whole thing is like nobody
Speaker 1: cares how fast you run. Let's all make sure we
Speaker 1: can do it, have a good time. If you run
Speaker 1: across somebody that's struggling, ask me if they need help,
Speaker 1: offer him some food, whatever. And I saw a lot
Speaker 1: of that because I came out very conservative. I didn't
Speaker 1: even make a running stride for probably the first five
Speaker 1: or six miles. And even then when I would like
Speaker 1: catch up to a group and we'd be on something flat,
Speaker 1: everybody else would go into like a jogging kind of
Speaker 1: a pace or look, and I just kind of do
Speaker 1: like a fast walk and stretch my legs and kind
Speaker 1: of keep up with that same pace. Uh. But like
Speaker 1: two three hours into it, I started to overcome people
Speaker 1: that went in earlier waves and they'd have like almost
Speaker 1: like a zombie like look, you know a little bit
Speaker 1: like whether I getting myself into the bridge or ridge
Speaker 1: walk doesn't sound nearly as cool. No, no, no, listen.
Speaker 1: I watch a lot of it. You know, I'm not
Speaker 1: running up that super steep stuff. The fastest I think
Speaker 1: this year was around like three and a half three
Speaker 1: forty five. The course record is three hours. It stood
Speaker 1: for quite some time, I think, uh, and then I
Speaker 1: think I got eighth in in the mail nine age group.
Speaker 1: I got sixty out of two fifty people, and the
Speaker 1: last person to finish was close to ten hours this year.
Speaker 1: Dart Or. Yeah, but I saw Kurt Smith like, it's
Speaker 1: funny because you just don't know who's involved in it
Speaker 1: in this community. At the very first I think it
Speaker 1: was on top of Yeah, Kurt Smith from Shapna is
Speaker 1: up there with like two gallons of water, just cheering
Speaker 1: everybody on and filling everybody's water bottles up, and yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool. Hey, I want to see how good you are, younnie.
Speaker 1: Um you could you know how you mentioned smoke? Okay,
Speaker 1: you could segue off that to two very important things
Speaker 1: happening in this room right now. I want you to
Speaker 1: do a segue for each. Okay, speaking of smoke. When
Speaker 1: I saw Brody post a picture of this lake trout
Speaker 1: that he smoked, I was like, man, it looked a
Speaker 1: little dark. This is this gonna turn into a comment sandwich? Um, well,
Speaker 1: I haven't tried it. It's sitting right here in front
Speaker 1: of us. I can smell it. It smells good. And
Speaker 1: so I was gonna ask if maybe the dark color
Speaker 1: was you know, he did on purpose. He might have
Speaker 1: put a syrup glazeuph you did, Okay, let me hear
Speaker 1: you seg what the other thing? It's been very smoky
Speaker 1: here the last uh, I don't know, six eight weeks.
Speaker 1: It's interesting though, I found this year how it seems
Speaker 1: like like this morning, right at daylight seven am, it
Speaker 1: was almost bluebird, and then by like nine like it's
Speaker 1: it's rolling in. It seems like I've had I've seen
Speaker 1: a lot of days where super smoky then it clears
Speaker 1: out vice versa. Anyways, but we have a to educate
Speaker 1: all of us. As our main guest today we have
Speaker 1: Paul Hessburg, who's gonna tell us all about wildfires. Man,
Speaker 1: he nailed it. That was good. Watch this segue. You
Speaker 1: know who didn't nail it? Here it comes you overcooked
Speaker 1: it a little bit. Man, I like it a little here.
Speaker 1: That's good though, man, Oh I thought it was great,
Speaker 1: very good, especially on a cracker, but you chipped a
Speaker 1: little bit. Just I mean, I'm not gonna know what.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna fie you put it back on for
Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna infantilize you by building a component sandwich.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna give it to you straight. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: get I get shipped from be honest about my bear grease.
Speaker 1: I get shipped about my smoke lake shout from you.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't even bring it in for you. Just know
Speaker 1: I love it. It's extremely good. It just went past
Speaker 1: its glossy phase. It lost. I lost. I like it
Speaker 1: a little da Packing it around in a backpack. That
Speaker 1: moist stuff is just you know, get smashed and ship.
Speaker 1: Damn boy, you can have a whole mess on your hands,
Speaker 1: no matter how clean you try to be out there
Speaker 1: in the woods, and then you just got greasy hands
Speaker 1: all day. Oh yeah you didn't. You gotta provide a
Speaker 1: quick little bit of detail. We have a lot we
Speaker 1: gotta do. But the drew a sheep take. Not really.
Speaker 1: I've been kind of keeping it on the d L
Speaker 1: because I just figured to go try to a lot
Speaker 1: of attention. Um, you can probably snoop around and figure
Speaker 1: out where I drew it. It's in Colorado, So should
Speaker 1: I not brought it up? Just say a different, say
Speaker 1: a lie about where it is. But by this point
Speaker 1: in time when you're hearing this, hopefully I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: a dead ram on my hands. But you know, there's
Speaker 1: a high demand on sheep in general, and I've been
Speaker 1: asked by multiple people if I wouldn't mind just like
Speaker 1: not mentioning like where the actual you know, unit is,
Speaker 1: just to like not create unneeded attention. Um, But yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going like I said you, I'll be hunting probably
Speaker 1: when you're listening to this. But I'm going down in
Speaker 1: two days to start scouting season open September seven, So
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that i'll have one tied up to the tree,
Speaker 1: as they say, and be able to put some cross
Speaker 1: airs on him morning of the seventh. All right, man,
Speaker 1: uh quick update, So you're good there because you're not
Speaker 1: looking to really overdo it. What do you mean? I
Speaker 1: mean you're you're good on talking about it? Oh, I
Speaker 1: don't mean I can keep talking about it. I've been
Speaker 1: having a lot of fun. I've got I've been building
Speaker 1: a gear list. I was gonna mention this. I just
Speaker 1: decided I was making a gear list for my own purposes.
Speaker 1: Very good, Brody, A little dry, it's a big it's
Speaker 1: almost got like a hint of citrus nous in there
Speaker 1: is that? Did you put like some kind of It's
Speaker 1: just it was just a dry Brian brown, sugar and
Speaker 1: salt and then the little maple syrup at the end.
Speaker 1: Smoke lake trout the bag Brody gave me, says grease Ball. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a derogatory lake trout term. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: People just don't know what's going on. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's good. I'm telling you. If you went to like
Speaker 1: a whatever they call him, fish house, smoke house or whatever,
Speaker 1: you would have to pay probably, what do you think,
Speaker 1: at least twenty bucks, if not thirty bucks a pound
Speaker 1: for something like that. Yeah, that's good, way better than
Speaker 1: smoked salmon. Anyways. I so I was making a gear list.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't forget anything. This is the one hunt I
Speaker 1: really want to be extra dialed in on. Ah and uh,
Speaker 1: look at this, you're gonna be impressed. You probably don't
Speaker 1: even know what Google sheet is. What's your looking attridge
Speaker 1: of choice? I'm going six five rpm? Good choice. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I'm looking at Yi's a little deal here. He's
Speaker 1: got a miscellaneous category which covers things such as uh,
Speaker 1: dragon polls, his bear as, his bear defense system down
Speaker 1: through by. It's weird the binos is in miscellaneous, not
Speaker 1: in optics, well, because the optics sort of package fell
Speaker 1: in under the zone of in my backpack optics, not
Speaker 1: the worn or carried optics, and that's why I fell
Speaker 1: into he's even got pundages. Okay, so he's got a
Speaker 1: fel on Ammo, so all the things are going to shooting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the poundages, and I've got dash worn so what
Speaker 1: you're bringing, what you're wearing, correct, He's got his food
Speaker 1: right all the way down to electro light tablets. He's
Speaker 1: got his gear at truck in case of worsening weather.
Speaker 1: How many days are you prepared to be in there
Speaker 1: at a time? Oh, I can't think I could easily do.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the limit would probably like. How
Speaker 1: like when you go in, where do you Well, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go scout for just like three or four days,
Speaker 1: so I'll pack food for that, and then when we
Speaker 1: go back in, um, I'll probably pack for five or
Speaker 1: six something like that? Is it? Tough to get in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: depending on where are you park and where we kind
Speaker 1: of want to start in in what what drainage? Uh
Speaker 1: like where I saw the sheep when I went into scout,
Speaker 1: I was almost nine miles from the truck. But pretty
Speaker 1: easy approach, Pretty just like straightforward flat trail system. More
Speaker 1: sot us filling in now since slow to load. Oh,
Speaker 1: it's way more. Okay, it's just been slow to fill in. Okay, system.
Speaker 1: He's got a pack category, a water category, but how
Speaker 1: to deal with water, and there is an optics category.
Speaker 1: It's just it's been populating slowly. A shelter in sleep category,
Speaker 1: a cooking category, a medikit category, emergency kit category. Are
Speaker 1: you going light on the shelter? That miscellaneous ut scouting?
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna run and then uh, when I go
Speaker 1: in with the photographer for the actual hunt, we're gonna
Speaker 1: split the Stone Glaciers skyscraper. So that's like a little
Speaker 1: over four pounds, So will each be it, you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of pounds for Yeah, but I'm happy I
Speaker 1: got my kid down to roughly. Uh, if I'm going
Speaker 1: in solo, thirty five pounds no food or water. So
Speaker 1: if I go in five days. That's ten pounds of food.
Speaker 1: That's up to forty five in the add You know,
Speaker 1: however much water you're gonna carry half a gallon before pounds.
Speaker 1: What's uh, what's a boned out sheep way in the
Speaker 1: cape and the head man. I was actually just talking
Speaker 1: to Carrasco about that, and he feels that you can
Speaker 1: get a whole boned out sheep if you are diligent
Speaker 1: about trimming um into one of the stone glacier load cells.
Speaker 1: So I'm actually gonna maybe splip my program and just
Speaker 1: carry one of those and not carrying any game bags.
Speaker 1: Maybe one extra in case there's like overflow, you know um,
Speaker 1: or maybe a place a way to wrap up the
Speaker 1: cape in the head. But he said about sixty six
Speaker 1: pounds boned out the head and cape. You know, I
Speaker 1: didn't ask him that I should have a good use.
Speaker 1: Capes are valuable. Very The fund's calendar left up old
Speaker 1: deer stands calendar. There was granted, it was supposed to
Speaker 1: be a book. We haven't ruled that out. Listen at
Speaker 1: that sold out and so that it went from coffee
Speaker 1: table book to calendar. Because I had to prove the concept.
Speaker 1: I know kind of concept people just like being upset about. Listen,
Speaker 1: you can't tell people you're making a fine art coffee
Speaker 1: table book and then give him a calendar. But you can.
Speaker 1: But I'm at the general public that got upset. We
Speaker 1: spent months, general public, we have spent months talking about
Speaker 1: a fine art coffee table book. Well, Steve, you seem upset,
Speaker 1: but you were proven right that this is a redemption story. Dude. Listen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is like the do you know that when uh,
Speaker 1: It's a Wonderful Life? Of course, yeah, do you know
Speaker 1: what tanked commercially? It tanked critically. The company that the
Speaker 1: company that produced that movie went out of business based
Speaker 1: on the financial loss of It's a Wonderful Life and
Speaker 1: what happened in the end fill classic. Watch it every year,
Speaker 1: every American family. Every American family watches it every year.
Speaker 1: Years from now, every deer hunter in America. I'll have
Speaker 1: that book. This is a story like that. We did
Speaker 1: the calendar and we had a what I uh, Savannah
Speaker 1: called it a modest print run or some word like modesty.
Speaker 1: I called it a robust print run. I think it
Speaker 1: was a good number to go with Initially, twenty four
Speaker 1: hours gone but we reordered a sheph load. More naysayers
Speaker 1: have been silence. Yes, and everyone who's pissed the first
Speaker 1: day came out and it sold out. You will get
Speaker 1: your chance to get one. I feel a robust print run.
Speaker 1: Sold out in twenty four hours, out in a few hours,
Speaker 1: and now we ordered four x. Yeah that print run.
Speaker 1: I think, can you put your name out like, notify
Speaker 1: me when available as they got prey of something like
Speaker 1: that going on. I think so new episode of Media
Speaker 1: to the TV show hitting Netflix September twenty nine, some
Speaker 1: market calendars, new season, not just one? What I say
Speaker 1: episode new season? Can we give him any hints as
Speaker 1: to what Rick and Seth are in it? Rick and Seth?
Speaker 1: That's true? Uh, we we recomment it. Our buddy else
Speaker 1: is in it? Who's that? Luke Holmes? Oh, Luke Holmes
Speaker 1: is in it? The dogs in it? The dogs in it? Minga.
Speaker 1: Can you play that quick film? Let's do it? Uh?
Speaker 1: We talked about we recorded so Seth and you'll you'll
Speaker 1: meet Rick and in uh Seth again and there is
Speaker 1: that your first time on the act on the show,
Speaker 1: the Netflix show. Yes, Yeah, I never had a cameo.
Speaker 1: Y'all needs to do cameos all time. No cameo, you
Speaker 1: hast not done anything. I did realize though, that our
Speaker 1: beaver hunting or beaver trapping episode hit mainstream television because
Speaker 1: I've been getting a lot of notifications about that. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: outdoor channel. I didn't know what was happening. That's cool. Uh.
Speaker 1: The Chip and the poof was the previous episode episode.
Speaker 1: If you want to revisit the Chip and the Poof,
Speaker 1: Uh about our Flintlock hunt. So when you watch the
Speaker 1: show on September twenty nine, you can skip ahead of
Speaker 1: the Flintlock one and you'll meet uh, you'll meet Rick
Speaker 1: and Seth. Yep, I think about that Rick. That was
Speaker 1: back when you weren't even mare. Yeah, it wasn't married.
Speaker 1: That was before I was engaged. Is that when you
Speaker 1: taught dirt myth about a hang fire? If you go
Speaker 1: on Instagram on the one that was so sometime around
Speaker 1: last Christmas, If you go on Instagram so at Stephen Ronellan,
Speaker 1: you go watch like the World's Greatest hang fire video,
Speaker 1: dirts like run you scoundrels, trigger, like Forever goes by
Speaker 1: it all. He was he was like lower away and
Speaker 1: it was like a fuse burning straight out of Looney Tunes.
Speaker 1: It was crazy. Yeah, it's dangerous. I'm writing an article
Speaker 1: for the website that the nuts and bolts of it
Speaker 1: is gonna be the gear list, so you can check
Speaker 1: it out and see what we're using. And um, I
Speaker 1: think if that gear list can definitely be applied for
Speaker 1: an early season dear Archery elk hunt as well. It's
Speaker 1: good but inspired by this, but used for many other press.
Speaker 1: I look forward on the meat eater dot com. Uh,
Speaker 1: the whole thing about when I screwed up that word
Speaker 1: mackerel fructation when it was supposed to be mackerel fructification. Well,
Speaker 1: some guys sent in this. He looked up Google search
Speaker 1: trends for macero fructification and found that it had not
Speaker 1: been googled in a single time in five years. Then
Speaker 1: when we talked about it in July two thousand twenty
Speaker 1: one in the episode Cat Scratch Fever, it got searched
Speaker 1: a hundred times. People. Well, I think that's a really
Speaker 1: I think that graph you're looking at is a relative scale,
Speaker 1: so it's not literally a hundred times, but I mean
Speaker 1: I think it's showing you, like the relative difference in
Speaker 1: the so it's probably a lot more than a hundred,
Speaker 1: but also probably was googled at least once or twice
Speaker 1: in the last five years. It got um, yeah, quite
Speaker 1: a spike. But we did a T shirt run, a
Speaker 1: Mackerel fructification T shirt run, but they're all gone. That
Speaker 1: was a that was a modest print run. That was
Speaker 1: that that itself was a modest print collector's items. Now
Speaker 1: seth breakdown the the I call this a civil rights issue,
Speaker 1: the civil rights issue of Sunday hunting in Pennsylvania. Give
Speaker 1: us the give us the whole you know, the whole deal. Yeah. So, Um,
Speaker 1: for as long as I know you weren't able to
Speaker 1: hunt on Sundays in Pennsylvania. We talked about this in
Speaker 1: the episode, so check it out. But um, last year
Speaker 1: was the first year they allowed three Sundays of hunting. UM,
Speaker 1: which was the last Sunday of archery season, the first
Speaker 1: Sunday of it was the first first Sunday for the
Speaker 1: rifle season, and then one of the Sundays during bear season. Um.
Speaker 1: But right now, there's a bill send it, Bill six
Speaker 1: o seven that was introduced that would pass Sunday hunting
Speaker 1: authority fully from the legislator of the Pennsylvania Game Commission,
Speaker 1: which currently has the authority to only allow three Sundays.
Speaker 1: So it gives them the right to do it, yes,
Speaker 1: but you don't know if they will do it or
Speaker 1: is that the assumption that's I mean the assumption. I
Speaker 1: think the Game Commission is on board. And there's like
Speaker 1: there's like lots of studies that show how this will
Speaker 1: help economically. It gives more opportunity to like, you know,
Speaker 1: people that are out of staters that want to come
Speaker 1: hunt Pennsylvania. But like, you only hunt one day during
Speaker 1: the weekend. So just for the for the average person
Speaker 1: knocking out, like a your school teacher, and you got
Speaker 1: obligations Monday through any help, any like infinite number of occupations.
Speaker 1: Butt's just say a school teacher, you got obligations Monday
Speaker 1: through Friday to keep you damn you until dark the
Speaker 1: winner and then someone then the government's staying. Oh and
Speaker 1: of the two days you can hunt, uh, you can
Speaker 1: only hunt one of them. Like if you don't want
Speaker 1: to go hunting, and you want to go to your
Speaker 1: local church, go to your local church. Yeah, just because
Speaker 1: you doesn't no one's no one's like making you go
Speaker 1: just because you're allowed to hunt on Sunday doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you have to. I know years ago Seth and I
Speaker 1: added this up. But if you bow hunted and then
Speaker 1: rifle hunted in Pennsylvania and you took the opening day
Speaker 1: years ago, which traditionally is the Monday after Thanksgiving, if
Speaker 1: you took that as your holiday, but you didn't take
Speaker 1: any other days off, um, and you didn't hunt the
Speaker 1: flintlock season. This wasn't accounting that backup. So I wasn't
Speaker 1: ready for this level of thinking about Okay, just the
Speaker 1: average joe in Pennsylvania. If you yes, yes, So if
Speaker 1: you bow hunted the entire season and then every all
Speaker 1: of our rifle season, no flintlock hunting after Christmas, and
Speaker 1: you just did sad day hunts and you took the
Speaker 1: first day of rifle off, that was your only vacation day,
Speaker 1: took you to you hunt nine days? I remember we
Speaker 1: talked about that. Yeah, So I mean it's yes, every possible,
Speaker 1: you know, besides, like I said, that season, but if
Speaker 1: you didn't take any other vacation off besides the opening day,
Speaker 1: we gave that because most people, most schools are off,
Speaker 1: and how many days with that same person game. Now
Speaker 1: being able to hunt Sundays, well probably double that easily. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're a hunter many so that's a livable number. It's
Speaker 1: a big difference when you're you're not allowed to hunt
Speaker 1: Sunday and like who's going to deer Who wants to
Speaker 1: go to deer camp for a day? You know, like
Speaker 1: you can get a whole weekend and at least step
Speaker 1: can I can I give your grandpa's perspective on it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I go for it. This is a great argument. We
Speaker 1: love to have. Yea God bless him. Oh yeah, great guy.
Speaker 1: He hosted us. Yeah, listen, very gracious host put us up.
Speaker 1: Fat us who to this great company. His argument, his
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to do. His argument was he likes
Speaker 1: it that way because he told me on Saturday, you
Speaker 1: can get up to your hunting camp and quote, get
Speaker 1: all your clothes ready to everything, and then hunt on
Speaker 1: Sunday and no one's out in the woods. That was no, no, no,
Speaker 1: how did it go? Oh? How did it go? I
Speaker 1: don't remember? He doesn't he doesn't like the Sunday hunting.
Speaker 1: I know. He I'm sorry. That's I'm trying to give
Speaker 1: it was I screwed it? Up and and also the
Speaker 1: opener is now on Saturday rather than Monday. Oh, he
Speaker 1: liked to go up on Sunday, get all of his
Speaker 1: clothes ready hunt Monday. And that's how they've always done it,
Speaker 1: and by God, why would you change that. Now? Traditionally
Speaker 1: we would the Friday after Thanksgiving, we would go to camp.
Speaker 1: That's when everyone would meet there. Saturday we would do
Speaker 1: whatever work on on camp, go grouse hunting or whatever. Sunday,
Speaker 1: we get up, go to church at camp. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: get up, go to church. The priest always had like
Speaker 1: a blessing for all the hunters going out on Monday.
Speaker 1: We come back and start doing that. On Friday, we'd
Speaker 1: come back to camp, have a big meal, and then
Speaker 1: you know, go to bed because you're getting up early
Speaker 1: Monday morning to hit the woods. Dude, now I'm back
Speaker 1: to thinking that. I'm back to thinking that supports Sunday.
Speaker 1: The band No, no, don't stop to that painted such
Speaker 1: a nice Bucolic image that you can make more traditions.
Speaker 1: It just screws everything up. But now you can hunt
Speaker 1: on Saturday, but now you can't hunt on Sunday, and
Speaker 1: then it's back to hunting on Monday. It's a weird Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: Seth's just painted such a nice little man about brought
Speaker 1: to you thinking of that coming to a close cut,
Speaker 1: that conflicting. Yeah, you know what you might do, Phil,
Speaker 1: because South was going to do a call to action,
Speaker 1: but I think he does undid any progress he's gonna
Speaker 1: make by painting. Now, are way better traditions to be
Speaker 1: made in the future. If Sunday hunting, get up on Sunday,
Speaker 1: shoot a big old bucket. That's my kind of tradition.
Speaker 1: Give a call to action if you want to be
Speaker 1: in control of your own life and hunt when you
Speaker 1: want to hunt, and not when the government says or
Speaker 1: no not because not like of course the commission sets
Speaker 1: the season. If you want to hunt when the Game
Speaker 1: Commission says, and not when the state legislature says. Do this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's there's a article on National Deer Association UM
Speaker 1: Deer Association dot com slash action alert support Sunday hunting
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania with a whole listen. Yeah, just just do
Speaker 1: like a tell how to do a Google search. Just yeah,
Speaker 1: you could probably go to Deer Asociation dot com and
Speaker 1: in the search thing type in Pennsylvania Sunday hunting and
Speaker 1: it will come up there. You go, um, there's a
Speaker 1: there's like a click here link. You can go there,
Speaker 1: fill out some information and it it sends, um, it
Speaker 1: sends this. You know, basically a thing saying that you
Speaker 1: want this to pass? Now? Can residents of any state
Speaker 1: do this and participate? Or only residents of Pennsylvania. I
Speaker 1: did it, and I asked where you're from and stuff.
Speaker 1: I put Montana, and I'm gonna cue it up right now,
Speaker 1: let's all do it. Clay is redeemed after embarrassing like
Speaker 1: almost I thought, embarrassing himself on this show. He found
Speaker 1: documentation of an l an eel and l of beargrease
Speaker 1: just to refresh people's memories. Clay was telling me all
Speaker 1: about how there was a unit of measurement, which is
Speaker 1: the little it would be a sack if you took
Speaker 1: a doze skin a deer skin off, skinned to deer's
Speaker 1: neck out. Now you've got a little tube of like right,
Speaker 1: you got a little tube of hide. Stitch one end closed,
Speaker 1: fill that with a liquid and then stitch it shut.
Speaker 1: That little sack was a unit of measurement. I challenged
Speaker 1: him on this, and rather than doubling down. He did
Speaker 1: a mild retreat. Would you agree, Phil you were there, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a perfect way of framiant. I'd say
Speaker 1: he didn't double down. No, he did a mild retreat.
Speaker 1: He was still sticking to his guns a little bit.
Speaker 1: He was pretty sure. He kept He said, I've read
Speaker 1: an article about it. I quoted it. I must have
Speaker 1: read it some. But he wasn't like, Um, you calling
Speaker 1: me a liar and want to fight. That's not really placed.
Speaker 1: Plus use remote, you know, yeah, you talk a lot
Speaker 1: of ship remote. So he found it. Uh, it's from
Speaker 1: he's got he's a picture of the image, a photo
Speaker 1: of the book. It's all about Girl Stocker, Clay's buddy.
Speaker 1: Girl Stocker goes on and on. Guy ends up saying us.
Speaker 1: The black bear was a valuable commodity to early settlers
Speaker 1: of Arkansas. The price of bear skins at Arkansas Post
Speaker 1: in eighteen o six ranged from one dollar to two
Speaker 1: dollars each, and that's sourced. Bear oil sold for one
Speaker 1: dollar per gallon in eighteen thirty four. In the early eighties,
Speaker 1: an el of bear grease, formed from the hide from
Speaker 1: the head and neck of a deer was a standard
Speaker 1: medium of exchange. A man's status as a provider was
Speaker 1: judged by the number of elves of bear grease that
Speaker 1: stood by the fireplace. Bear meats sold for ten bucks
Speaker 1: per one pounds. That's good stuff of that. Glennwme coming through,
Speaker 1: coming through. Uh. This guy wrote in they have us
Speaker 1: at his at his high school. He doesn't say what
Speaker 1: high school went to. They had a tradition where are
Speaker 1: you um did a prank. It was like a senior prank.
Speaker 1: And for some reason, I like, the idea involves skunk
Speaker 1: essence skunk oil. But so they wanted to sneak into
Speaker 1: their high school and and lace some stuff with skunk oill.
Speaker 1: Totally understandable. But they chose hay bales. That's what puzzles me.
Speaker 1: Outside of the school. No, no, you gotta read that
Speaker 1: eighteen times and you realize that it's inside at the school. Oh,
Speaker 1: they soaked some hay bales. They put skunk oil on
Speaker 1: hay Bales and put him inside the school. The prank
Speaker 1: went awry, though, the next morning they discovered that school
Speaker 1: had been canceled. It was so bad the police came
Speaker 1: for him. The concentration of skunk oil was so high
Speaker 1: that it's so completely through the bales and into the carpet,
Speaker 1: causing thousands of dollars worth of damage, which he had
Speaker 1: to be him and his bodies had to pay for.
Speaker 1: Think of that, and they were arrested. I had I
Speaker 1: had an anti establishment renegade buddy named Emmett Lombard in
Speaker 1: high school. Give his full name, Mammy. What if he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, on the up and up? Now? Oh he is.
Speaker 1: I think the Statute of limitations is out on this one.
Speaker 1: But he poured uh fox leure fox here and on.
Speaker 1: You know, our our school was an older building, so
Speaker 1: it had those old radiators, and he cleared out the
Speaker 1: school with that. People were throwing up the stuff. Really
Speaker 1: was he fox trappers that way? Not at all. I
Speaker 1: don't even know where he got his hands on the stuff.
Speaker 1: But it was a good you know, he had a
Speaker 1: good plan. Uh this is here's anything. The little clarification
Speaker 1: We've talked about fifty freaking times about how Mark Twain
Speaker 1: so the writer Mark Twain, Huckleberry Finn Tom Sawyer. I
Speaker 1: really liked this clarification. Jumping frog Calveri's county. His birth
Speaker 1: name was Samuel Clemens. Of course, and he assumed the
Speaker 1: pen name Mark Twain. And we have talked about what
Speaker 1: what Mark Twain meant um. On the riverboats in the
Speaker 1: Mississippi River, there's a feller whose job is a stand
Speaker 1: up front with a marked rope like knots tied in
Speaker 1: the rope or something or the anchor on the end,
Speaker 1: and you flick that rope out and then check out
Speaker 1: deep the waters and the thing is marked in six
Speaker 1: ft increments fathoms, So one fathom increments Mark Twain means
Speaker 1: second mark two fathoms safe passage. So Twain had That's
Speaker 1: the understanding of why Twain took the name Mark Twain.
Speaker 1: But this guy gets into this book tells the book
Speaker 1: a biography about John McKay, a contemporary of Samuel Clemens
Speaker 1: whose past intersected with his at the Calm stock load
Speaker 1: and Virginia City, Nevadam. The guy says here in the book,
Speaker 1: the guy says this, well, sam clemens use of Mark
Speaker 1: Twain as a pen name did have roots in his
Speaker 1: time on the Mississippi. His intervening use of the phrase
Speaker 1: in Virginia City to order his whiskey is an even
Speaker 1: better story to share Over a few drinks he cools.
Speaker 1: In the book, Clemens claimed he'd appropriated his by then
Speaker 1: famous gnome to plume from a state Mississippi riverboat captain. However,
Speaker 1: according to more convincing Virginia City legend, Clemens acquired the
Speaker 1: nickname before appeared in print, derived from his habit of
Speaker 1: striding into the Old Corner saloon and calling out to
Speaker 1: the bar keep to Mark Twain. What he meant was
Speaker 1: he was ordered two whiskeys, and bartenders would keep track
Speaker 1: of what you drank on a chalkboard next year name
Speaker 1: and Mark Twain to marks mark him down for two whiskeys.
Speaker 1: Think of that. I don't know that's cool. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Why do you like it? Johnnie? Um? I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's just next ovel. I like it because especially because
Speaker 1: we were so sure about the other version of the story,
Speaker 1: you know, and then and I think it also, um
Speaker 1: it uh makes them just more of a human, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of takes him off of a pedestal. It's just
Speaker 1: a dude that uh, you know, it's calling out for
Speaker 1: drinks of whiskey so often that they started developing. I
Speaker 1: wish Spencer new Heart is here right now, because i'd
Speaker 1: tell him I could jole him into doing a little
Speaker 1: fact checker MythBuster on on all this um guy wrote
Speaker 1: an anti fishing sprinklers on docks are real. I was saying,
Speaker 1: so people are writing in about people putting sprinklers on
Speaker 1: docks to keep everybody away, keep fisherman away. And someone
Speaker 1: was like, no, no, no, no, it's not to keep
Speaker 1: fisherman away. It's keep ducks and geese from shotting on
Speaker 1: your dock. They put a sprinkler out and then anytime
Speaker 1: something comes near it, the sprinkler shoots out water and
Speaker 1: it spooks off ducks and geese so they don't shat
Speaker 1: on their This guy's like, this guy wrote in and says, listen,
Speaker 1: not true. In Florida. There are many docks I fished
Speaker 1: that are definitely watered, not for ducks or geese. These
Speaker 1: sprinklers are intentionally aimed into the surrounding water too detour
Speaker 1: boats from fishing too close to their dock. It is
Speaker 1: very common. And he goes on to say, my favorite
Speaker 1: thing here this is probably He says, there's a lady
Speaker 1: in the Tampa Bay area named Joyce who was damn
Speaker 1: remember how like like a couple of months ago, and
Speaker 1: all of some became a thing like to be like
Speaker 1: a Karen. Now you can be like a says. There's
Speaker 1: a lady in the Tampa Bay area named Joyce who
Speaker 1: was caught on camera given anglers a hard time for
Speaker 1: fishing her dock. So these guys made a Facebook event
Speaker 1: with a public invitation called fish Joyce Stock. I hope
Speaker 1: everyone show everybody all the area fisherman can show up
Speaker 1: at all fish Joyce's dock at the same time. But
Speaker 1: what what kind of like what kind of angler is
Speaker 1: going to be scared off by a sprinkler? Yeah? Half
Speaker 1: tiger fish and you're wearing right, Come on listen, man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're a little annoying picture that I had a home.
Speaker 1: I see those sprinklers pictures. I have a hose on
Speaker 1: your for somehow, I have a hose on your boat
Speaker 1: and you're fishing away and all of a sudden, like periodically,
Speaker 1: I hose you down. You're telling me that your man, Okay,
Speaker 1: we'll do that. I gotta figure out how to do it.
Speaker 1: I gotta figure out how to get me a little pump.
Speaker 1: But if I now, if I was down there and
Speaker 1: I saw a sprinkler on a dock. I'd be like,
Speaker 1: that's a good spot. No one's fishing spot fish Joyce's doc.
Speaker 1: I love it. I just gotta cast, Okay, Yeah, like this,
Speaker 1: I'm on fish ors dock on the Facebook. And look
Speaker 1: at that old boy trying to keep people off of
Speaker 1: his Uh this has already been going for is he outsprings.
Speaker 1: He's standing on his dock with a hose in one
Speaker 1: hand and some kind of a stick pull on the
Speaker 1: other hand, banging his dock. He's trying to scare fish away. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then the guys that are angling are laughing so
Speaker 1: hard they can't even make a cast. Yeah, he's out
Speaker 1: banging a broomstick on his dock to spook fish out
Speaker 1: from under his dock. If you go on YouTube, there's
Speaker 1: like ten million videos of people like doing the same ship.
Speaker 1: I just I don't understand, Like, what, why, why, what's
Speaker 1: the problem? I don't know. He's that that old timer
Speaker 1: right there is an interesting situation. Look now he's just
Speaker 1: started his engines on his boat that are next next
Speaker 1: to the dock and just has him sitting there, you know,
Speaker 1: above idle speed. It's probably not good for whatever. Where
Speaker 1: the boats sitting just reving. The just turning up ship
Speaker 1: and marinas and docks aren't used to. He's making a
Speaker 1: weird calculation. This dude is like he's saying himself, I
Speaker 1: could be doing whatever it was I'd normally be doing, Okay,
Speaker 1: mowing my lawn, watching too, playing golf whatever. You you're
Speaker 1: the old guy in Florida. Okay, um, and do that
Speaker 1: knowing that someone might be fishing. It's just needling out
Speaker 1: of my awareness. Or I could be down on my
Speaker 1: dock banging on my dock with a broomstick. Hmm. And
Speaker 1: he's probably like, I don't want people fishing my dock
Speaker 1: because it's gonna damage it or something. And there he
Speaker 1: is smacking his dock with a broomstick. Holy cow, I
Speaker 1: want to go fishing, and I think people just like
Speaker 1: to be king of the mountain. Yeah, white tail deer.
Speaker 1: There's another thing I want to get any man, But
Speaker 1: it's like, very complicated. Let me give it to you
Speaker 1: real quick. It's so complicated. I was actually emailing with
Speaker 1: someone at National Shooting Sports Foundation today to get clarification.
Speaker 1: That's very complicated. So the Center for Biological Diversity and
Speaker 1: the Natural Resources Defense Counsel, which UH two organizations, which
Speaker 1: are they are not outspoken lee anti hunting. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: have a proven track record of well, every time there's
Speaker 1: an issue, they're always on the anti hunting side of it.
Speaker 1: Coincidentally or not. They're petitioning we should get someone from
Speaker 1: those organizations. I would let you know what that's what
Speaker 1: Kris needs to do. But Krin's not here right now.
Speaker 1: She needs to get someone from one of those organs
Speaker 1: to come and be like, no, no, no, no, we're
Speaker 1: not in that hunting and and explain it. I'd love
Speaker 1: to hear it. Uh. They're petitioning the Department of the
Speaker 1: Interior and the US Fish and Wildlife Service to quote
Speaker 1: to band trade in wild mammals and birds, and for
Speaker 1: regulations instituting a comprehensive chain of custody system for all
Speaker 1: plants and wildlife imported into or exported from the United States.
Speaker 1: What they're saying is this, this is one of those
Speaker 1: weird This is one of those like this is a
Speaker 1: weird COVID thing, like a COVID related thing that might
Speaker 1: not immediately seem like a COVID related thing. So you
Speaker 1: have two groups, Center for Biological Diversity and Natural Resources
Speaker 1: Defense Council. They're coming and saying you shouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to bring wildlife parts into and out of the country
Speaker 1: without meeting certain criteria, and they're calling for and immediate
Speaker 1: ban while we sort out the system. So they're saying, like,
Speaker 1: stop now until we can put in place a satisfactory
Speaker 1: system to trace any movement of wildlife parts. So the
Speaker 1: stop now part would mean you don't come into the country,
Speaker 1: you go to like Clay Nukeomb right now is up
Speaker 1: in Manitoba hunting bears. Clay does not bring any part
Speaker 1: of that bear, no hide, no meat, nothing crosses that border.
Speaker 1: They don't point out in here that they're proposing that
Speaker 1: I'll get to the COVID part of this in a minute.
Speaker 1: They don't point out explicitly in here that they're proposing
Speaker 1: interstate bands as well. But some different legal experts have
Speaker 1: looked at their use of the Lacy Act. The Lacy
Speaker 1: Act is used in the US. Would be that I'm
Speaker 1: trying to quickly explain Lacey Act. The Lacey Act gives
Speaker 1: a lot of teeth to wildlife regulations because let's say
Speaker 1: you had a state with very lax wildlife regulations and
Speaker 1: you broke a wildlife law in that state. So let's
Speaker 1: say you go into a state and you poach it here,
Speaker 1: and then you drive your poach deer from Ohio to Indiana,
Speaker 1: Ohio Illinois, you drive your poach here. Um, you have
Speaker 1: just violated the Lacey Act. So now you've committed a
Speaker 1: federal crime and that allows it gives like an enhanced
Speaker 1: ability for people to go after interstate poachers. The Lacy
Speaker 1: Act does. And they're calling upon their justifying this band
Speaker 1: in terms of Lazy Act. And so some people are
Speaker 1: pointing out that the way this is worded and the
Speaker 1: enforcement strategy would de facto mean that it would make
Speaker 1: interstate movement of wild animals wildlife parts would ban that
Speaker 1: most immediately A look, and you think it has any
Speaker 1: kind of it has repercussions for anyone that hunts Canada,
Speaker 1: hunts in Africa, being able to bring stuff back with
Speaker 1: you without going through whatever kind of thing that might
Speaker 1: presumably be onerous. Now what they're doing is they're saying, oh,
Speaker 1: hey man, we should do this because of COVID, which
Speaker 1: I feel is a little opportunistic. It's like, does they're
Speaker 1: sort of selling the idea based on that you're gonna reduce.
Speaker 1: They're saying that, hey, we all know, or we don't
Speaker 1: all know. We all thought a while ago that COVID
Speaker 1: absolutely came from bats. Now it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: toss up between the lab and bats, but absolutely came
Speaker 1: from bats. Um, we'll slow down or stop the movement
Speaker 1: of diseases by stopping the movement of wildlife parts. But
Speaker 1: it seems opportunistic to me. It's like they're going like,
Speaker 1: how can we leverage COVID into um, how can we
Speaker 1: leverage the pandemic and public awareness around the pandemic into
Speaker 1: getting a thing we want, which is that you can't
Speaker 1: move wildlife parts. Yeah? Well, I mean the same kind
Speaker 1: of people that are gonna latch onto moving wildlife parts,
Speaker 1: the same kind of people that are going to latch
Speaker 1: onto you know the COVID reasons, right, No overreach is
Speaker 1: too much over I mean it does it seem like
Speaker 1: the end goal is interstate trafficking and not international. I
Speaker 1: saw a clarification about that. I don't want to read
Speaker 1: the whole email exchange, but I saw a clarification about
Speaker 1: that today and there was a a learned I received
Speaker 1: a learned reply about why that UM, why it's likely that,
Speaker 1: as pursued would have impact on interstate which would impact
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who goes on and out of state
Speaker 1: hunt at that point watch this transition. Speaking of COVID, hey,
Speaker 1: I think we should just do a quick shout out though.
Speaker 1: If you want to keep before you go to your transition,
Speaker 1: think about it some more. But if you want to
Speaker 1: keep an eyeball on that, um you can probably keep
Speaker 1: up with that at ww dot n s s F
Speaker 1: dot org, which is the National Stream Sports Foundation, as
Speaker 1: well as um our buddies over at the Sportsman's Alliance.
Speaker 1: Thanks so again, This isn't like, this isn't a law
Speaker 1: that's been passed. This is a petition. It's a request, right,
Speaker 1: It's an official request on behalf of two organizations which
Speaker 1: we need to get people from one of those organizations
Speaker 1: or the other on to explain their mission. Maybe I
Speaker 1: got it all wrong. I don't know. I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear more. Speaking of COVID, ready for this transition. White
Speaker 1: tailed deer are showing up with COVID and staggering numbers.
Speaker 1: It seems not to mess with them, but they're getting it.
Speaker 1: Thirty three of white tailed deer tested in Illinois. Michigan,
Speaker 1: New York, and and and Pennsylvania. Let me start over,
Speaker 1: because this is so kind of surprising. Thirty three of
Speaker 1: deer tested in Illinois, Michigan, New York, and Pennsylvania were
Speaker 1: positive for antibodies, meaning they had been exposed at some point,
Speaker 1: but doesn't necessarily indicate they had active infections between January
Speaker 1: and March, so narrow window of time they tested Foe
Speaker 1: deer Michigan, sixty seven of one thirteen samples. Sixtent of
Speaker 1: the tested deer had COVID antibodies. This has not been
Speaker 1: peer reviewed. Peer review means you do, like a little thing,
Speaker 1: you do a little research, um, and you sent it
Speaker 1: out to a scientist in your field, and they kind
Speaker 1: of go through and check your work and they'll they'll
Speaker 1: poke holes in it, right, And a lot of things
Speaker 1: don't make it through a peer like someone might look
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, yeah, but had you thought of this?
Speaker 1: I mean, and they're like, oh, ship, we didn't think
Speaker 1: of that. And then it doesn't. It doesn't, the idea
Speaker 1: doesn't advance. This has not been peer reviewed. Even though
Speaker 1: it hasn't, it seems completely plausible, right, Like not to me,
Speaker 1: it doesn't, I'd have to be. I'd have to know
Speaker 1: so much more about like when you test, are their
Speaker 1: false flags? Like I don't know enough about it? What
Speaker 1: a common what a dear's version of a common cold?
Speaker 1: Trigger the I don't know. But wasn't there instances like
Speaker 1: where minx wild minks were infected with and and all
Speaker 1: kinds of zoos have had animals. That's a good point
Speaker 1: by you know a lot of zoo critters. You're about
Speaker 1: that lady that got banished from that zoo for having
Speaker 1: an affair with that chimpanzee. I wish I could make
Speaker 1: that whistle noise. I gotta transitions that they didn't have
Speaker 1: COVID speaking of being a wreck um. They did say
Speaker 1: I read something a little bit. There was more than
Speaker 1: what we have here in our notes. It did say
Speaker 1: that this this, these blood tests have been going on
Speaker 1: for like a decade, and so they were able to
Speaker 1: look because saying, oh, well, maybe they've always carried these
Speaker 1: stars viruses and there's you know, we all know that
Speaker 1: there's like different versions of COVID all the time. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: they looked back like ten years in history and they're like, no,
Speaker 1: it didn't there was there. Those markers were not there
Speaker 1: back then. See, YO knows a lot more about you
Speaker 1: should lead the discussion. That's all I know about this.
Speaker 1: Well that's a pretty important damn point. Interesting though, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the question I was gonna askar up. So obviously
Speaker 1: questions arise our white tails spreading the virus among themselves
Speaker 1: and or getting it from close contact with humans. How
Speaker 1: might this effect spread between and among animals and humans?
Speaker 1: Are do you're not showing symptoms by acting as hosts
Speaker 1: for novel mutations to it then pass back to humans.
Speaker 1: Sure it'd be cool if we get a sound of
Speaker 1: someone doing one of those astonished whistles and then just
Speaker 1: insert it. I can't really now picture what it's actually
Speaker 1: supposed to sound like. I'm sure Phil confined like an
Speaker 1: astonished whistle. Yeah, we can do that. Do you want
Speaker 1: me to get a live soundboard in here? I have
Speaker 1: that Yanni one when I first like this just two
Speaker 1: years ago. Alright, wasn't here, Yeah, yeah, Yanni wasn't here,
Speaker 1: And Phil took a bunch of Yanni saying a bunch
Speaker 1: of different things, and you can just hit whatever you
Speaker 1: wanted ya just say, like, like is that right? Just
Speaker 1: have to say whatever you wanted to. And then we
Speaker 1: could also make them look dumb because we could. We
Speaker 1: could play it saying something real obvious, but then have
Speaker 1: Yanni be like, I don't understand people like that. Yanni, man,
Speaker 1: he doesn't get anything. Um, here's the interesting story out
Speaker 1: of Florida. This is another one. It's hard to explain,
Speaker 1: so there had long been. Let me try to think
Speaker 1: of a different way to tiptoe into this one. Depending
Speaker 1: where you live here in the good old United States,
Speaker 1: and and for you listeners elsewhere, you'll have your own
Speaker 1: version of this. Your state may or may not have
Speaker 1: a law about how far away from a occupied dwelling
Speaker 1: from a building you can discharge your gun. Meaning in Michigan,
Speaker 1: for instance, let's say you had a Let's say a
Speaker 1: guy had a house and he built this house like
Speaker 1: right dead nuts on the edge of the National forest.
Speaker 1: You gotta be what is it something like that in Michigan,
Speaker 1: I can't remember. You can't go stand like, let's say,
Speaker 1: his house. Theoretically it is like around the line. You
Speaker 1: can't go stand like outside his bedroom window and be like,
Speaker 1: hey bro, I'm on nash of forest man, bam bouch
Speaker 1: start shooting because you got even if you're even if
Speaker 1: you're okay to be on the ground, you still have
Speaker 1: to keep distance from that safety the state I'm sitting
Speaker 1: in now, as well as you're sitting here now. They
Speaker 1: don't have it. We used to flow a river for
Speaker 1: ducks and it felt so weird. I called fishing game.
Speaker 1: Just say, like, man, there's something that just doesn't seem right,
Speaker 1: even though we've been doing it. And he said, we
Speaker 1: don't have a law like that. I said, so, what
Speaker 1: would happen? He goes, what would happen is you hit
Speaker 1: the guy's house and as a negligent discharge or something.
Speaker 1: But the simple fact of you firing that in and
Speaker 1: of itself, out of you endangering someone, like, just the
Speaker 1: simple fact of you firing in close proximity. We don't
Speaker 1: have a rule about that. I would I would have
Speaker 1: assumed there was. I just assumed there was. But that's
Speaker 1: why I called it felt naughty. Yeah, I got a
Speaker 1: deer spot like that. I saw a new game war
Speaker 1: and recently I was talking about something that felt naughty
Speaker 1: but wasn't. And he was saying, like he basically said, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you listen to yourself? Why does that not
Speaker 1: feel to you. I'm like, just feels like it should
Speaker 1: I shouldn't be able to do that because you should
Speaker 1: listen to those instincts. So Florida, there's been some tension
Speaker 1: between water like there's some tension and some waterfowl hunters
Speaker 1: have even wanted to clarify because there's like a debate
Speaker 1: and people get an arguments about where you're hunting. So
Speaker 1: some hunters wanted to you know, some people in the
Speaker 1: non hunting community and some people in the hunting community
Speaker 1: have sought to clarify what is the restricted area and
Speaker 1: they're creating this restricted hunting area, and it there's a
Speaker 1: movement to create this rule. The rule provides a clear
Speaker 1: path for a municipality to establish on their choice to
Speaker 1: a stay, ablish a restricted hunting area with certain housing
Speaker 1: density requirements and capability by municipal law enforcement to enforce
Speaker 1: distant rules outlined in a restricted hunting area. So they
Speaker 1: have three ft from an occupied dwelling. You cannot hunt
Speaker 1: within three feet of an occupied dwelling. This guy wrote
Speaker 1: in what he's worried about is rampant development in Florida.
Speaker 1: So right now it might seem like a good idea, Okay,
Speaker 1: I see all the houses. I know where the houses are.
Speaker 1: We can't shoot within three hundred feet. But as he's
Speaker 1: looking along the lake shore with all the development building
Speaker 1: going on, you look ten twenty years into the future,
Speaker 1: and he's saying, I see an area where even with
Speaker 1: a duck hunter support. If a duck hunter supported this
Speaker 1: rule in order to have it, they clearly defined so
Speaker 1: everybody knows where they're standing legally, He's worried about as
Speaker 1: our you know, urban rural interfaces. Um, are they going
Speaker 1: to negotiate themselves right out of all their hunting spots,
Speaker 1: because every time a house gets built, you've created a
Speaker 1: circle with a one hundred yard radius that can't be hunted.
Speaker 1: I think about that. It's a refuge a thousand people
Speaker 1: per day moving to Florida. Cheez, And he points out
Speaker 1: ducks are found along the shoreline. You go to a
Speaker 1: lake where the ducks hang out, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes not, but I mean typically, yeah, you go to
Speaker 1: a lake throughound the shoreline. They also have this thing
Speaker 1: where it matters who owns the house. So the law
Speaker 1: provides private property rights on public land to those who
Speaker 1: live inside and r h A. If you live inside
Speaker 1: in r h a, you can duck hunt inside the
Speaker 1: three hundred foot boundary or give others permission to do
Speaker 1: so within three hundred feet of your dwelling, so you
Speaker 1: can hunt it. It effectively privatizes the lake shore. That's interesting.
Speaker 1: Can you hunt it if your house is less than
Speaker 1: three feet from the next Oh that's a good that's
Speaker 1: a good point. Yeah, because where did those spaces? That
Speaker 1: comes back to the density thing, Like if you live
Speaker 1: on a lake without a lot of houses and suddenly,
Speaker 1: but it's interest man, a couple of dudes go by
Speaker 1: a place, a couple of places, a couple of shacks.
Speaker 1: Also you're like, nah, huh, it's our spot now, bro. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And what if a dude builds a little floating house
Speaker 1: out in front of your place where you're going to hunt,
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, bro, you can't hunt within a
Speaker 1: hundred yards in my little floating house. Here the list
Speaker 1: of the road in letcher Um. Him and his fellow
Speaker 1: anti rual colleagues are trying to work with the FWS
Speaker 1: what's that stand for Fish and Wildish Wildlife Service Commission
Speaker 1: Florida to go to negotiate a rule to be a
Speaker 1: little more palatable. He thinks it's an egregious oversight by
Speaker 1: the Commission some of the stuff they're not looking at
Speaker 1: Steve today here, you're correctly. They're like, the municipality can
Speaker 1: just make up there like that? Can they have authority
Speaker 1: over that? The municipality can declare a restricted hunting area.
Speaker 1: So I think that would get super messy with depending
Speaker 1: if you have a hunter friendly municipality or not, or
Speaker 1: just duck hunters going. That's ridiculous. A bunch of New
Speaker 1: Jersey is there something as a Florida cat lady, A
Speaker 1: bunch of Joyce is all the Joyces get together and
Speaker 1: they're like, I got an idea, Let's make us an
Speaker 1: r H A community. Yeah, that's a good one, man flatcher,
Speaker 1: good for keeping out. Good on you for keeping an
Speaker 1: eye out. Very good one. All right, I already moved
Speaker 1: on to like this, we're gonna move on to a
Speaker 1: subject that's just to just just really troubles me, keeps
Speaker 1: me up at night. And that is just how much
Speaker 1: of our landscape we are burning every year in big
Speaker 1: hot fires, not the nice ones, the hot soil burners,
Speaker 1: and holy cow, man like fire is in the fire.
Speaker 1: Like was the news. It got bumped by Cobble, it
Speaker 1: got bumped by the hurrican Kane. But other than that,
Speaker 1: man fire has had has maintained a real position in
Speaker 1: the news over multiple years of like news cycles. You
Speaker 1: get the feeling something weird is going on, something news
Speaker 1: going on. Then you uh try to make it be
Speaker 1: that it's not because that's scary. So then you'll sit
Speaker 1: around and thinking, oh, yeah, but what about the Pestigo
Speaker 1: fire of eight seventy one that killed people? Um, maybe
Speaker 1: it's not so bad. I don't know. We're gonna we're
Speaker 1: gonna get into that, and we're gonna get into it
Speaker 1: with our guest, Paul Hesberg. So, Paul Hesberg is a
Speaker 1: research landscape ecologist with the U. S d A's Forest Service.
Speaker 1: He'll tell us what that means, but he's affiliated as
Speaker 1: a research professor with a handful of universities, including University
Speaker 1: of Washington, Oregon State University, University of British columb You
Speaker 1: all right, so we're just gonna ask him direct, Paul,
Speaker 1: can you lay out for folks what it means to
Speaker 1: be a rate sorry, what it means to be a
Speaker 1: research landscape ecologist and how does that bring you into
Speaker 1: the fire world. That's a great question. Thanks for having
Speaker 1: me on the show, Steve Um. So, a landscape ecologist
Speaker 1: studies how patterns of different conditions drive processes. So a
Speaker 1: wildfire would be a process, an insect outbreak would be
Speaker 1: a process. And so over the last several decades, I've
Speaker 1: been looking at and reconstructing historical landscapes throughout the West
Speaker 1: and asking the question what species of trees were growing,
Speaker 1: how dense were they, what were the sort of patchworks
Speaker 1: or mosaics, what do they look like? And then how
Speaker 1: did fire behave as a consequence of those conditions. And
Speaker 1: then I reconstructed current landscapes for the same places, and
Speaker 1: I compared them, and what I found out was that
Speaker 1: forests of the present day don't look or function anything
Speaker 1: like forests of even a hundred years ago. We're on
Speaker 1: a landscape that doesn't resemble what European colonists found when
Speaker 1: they got here to the west. Let's uh, let's start
Speaker 1: with with the kind of question I laid out earlier,
Speaker 1: Um that forest fires seemed that just you know, I
Speaker 1: don't like logs. Sort of the number of mentions of
Speaker 1: forest fires that occur in the news in conversations over
Speaker 1: the course of my life. But like, man, it really
Speaker 1: feels like they have just dominated public thinking, particularly in
Speaker 1: the West, in a way that they did not once
Speaker 1: upon a time. Yet, Um, you know, you imagine these
Speaker 1: There's that book called was Rick was the Big Burn?
Speaker 1: The Big Burn? About the ten like the catastrophic fires
Speaker 1: of earlier. I mentioned the largest forest fire I believe
Speaker 1: still today the largest forest fire in US history seventy one,
Speaker 1: the Pestigo Fire, which was burned across Wisconsin Michigan's Upper Peninsula,
Speaker 1: killed over a thousand people. So you look at these
Speaker 1: these monster fires historically and then you try to soothe
Speaker 1: yourself into thinking like, well, it can't be It's not
Speaker 1: that bad. So maybe nothing new is happening. Um, what's
Speaker 1: your take on that. Are we in a new era
Speaker 1: of forest fires or is it business as usual? We
Speaker 1: just hear about them more. We're in a new era,
Speaker 1: Steve Um. The Pestigo fire killed about people, and the
Speaker 1: firefighting infrastructure wasn't around. There wasn't really well developed, and
Speaker 1: so it caught them all by surprise. Wendy fire season, Uh,
Speaker 1: an awful lot of logging had gone through in the
Speaker 1: Lake States. There's a lot of slash hanging out. So
Speaker 1: the fire grew over three million acres as a consequence
Speaker 1: of lack of a big fire suppression infrastructure, caught by
Speaker 1: a real significant wind and weather event, a lot of
Speaker 1: fuel hanging around, and it was incredibly frightening and damaging.
Speaker 1: But it didn't get the US thinking about doing fire
Speaker 1: suppression wholesale and really scaling up to develop just an
Speaker 1: amazing resource to attack fire. Um. And if you read
Speaker 1: the history, there's a lot of other really big fires
Speaker 1: over a million acres that occurred long before the era
Speaker 1: of fire suppression. We're in a new era and now
Speaker 1: because the climate is getting warmer, it's getting hotter, drier,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot more windy days when it's hot
Speaker 1: and dry. What are the It's interesting that you brought
Speaker 1: up and I've always called the Pestigo fire, but you
Speaker 1: just said Pestigo, So, uh, thanks for the correction, Ara.
Speaker 1: But if if it's interesting to bring up that that
Speaker 1: might of um, that that fire, other later fires might
Speaker 1: have brought on the era of fire suppression. But can
Speaker 1: you lay out what factors are at play right now? Um?
Speaker 1: Because you hear multiple culprits, right, You hear that we
Speaker 1: have a history of fire suppression and then UM, forest
Speaker 1: management rights and wrongs, a changing climate. Um, is there
Speaker 1: a long list or is it a pretty simple list.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty simple list, really. Um. It's taken a
Speaker 1: lot of work on a lot of people's part to
Speaker 1: get to the place we are right now. But we
Speaker 1: know in the West, for example, that the Little Ice
Speaker 1: Age only ended a short time ago, so it was
Speaker 1: really mild and sort of equitable in the West, and
Speaker 1: that that made the the climate not too hot, not
Speaker 1: too dry, not too wet. It was sort of in
Speaker 1: the Goldilocks spot for a fairly long period of time,
Speaker 1: and so there was a lot of forest growth that
Speaker 1: occurred during that period of time. Um. And what we
Speaker 1: see from the climate data is after about we see
Speaker 1: a really different signature on the climate of western North America.
Speaker 1: And it's all the way across the Western States on
Speaker 1: into British Columbia and Alberta. It's a really big scale thing.
Speaker 1: In fact, in British Columbia and in the Arctic and Subarctic,
Speaker 1: temperatures are rising at a much faster rate than they
Speaker 1: are here in Washington State where I live, for example,
Speaker 1: two to three times the rate of warming and uh,
Speaker 1: and so those systems are just changing abruptly right now,
Speaker 1: and so they're burning too. We're saying really extensive fires.
Speaker 1: And the climate unequivocally is driving this rising area burned. Um.
Speaker 1: Everywhere we look, climate drives increasing area burned. It was
Speaker 1: that way thousands of years ago. It is this way
Speaker 1: going forward. Can you lay out the fire situation for people? Like,
Speaker 1: I just know you know where we are. It's smokey,
Speaker 1: it's been smoky for eight weeks. Um, we hear a
Speaker 1: lot about it, But like, can you give sort of
Speaker 1: like a more holistic snapshot of of what's happening at
Speaker 1: the moment? Sure, happy to do it, So think of
Speaker 1: I think that we're sort of I'm giving you a snapshot.
Speaker 1: And the numbers aren't done yet, right because an awful
Speaker 1: lot of places have a much longer fire season. So
Speaker 1: the snapshot is basically, we've got something like forty three
Speaker 1: thousand and counting fire starts in the continental US, about
Speaker 1: plus or minus five million acres have already burned, and
Speaker 1: we expect that number to continue rise on into the
Speaker 1: fall and even early winter in some of the southern states,
Speaker 1: and globally, it appears that is one of the worst
Speaker 1: fire years on record. So places that normally get fired
Speaker 1: like Australia and Africa and the Mediterranean countries that that
Speaker 1: are have that Mediterranean climate. Basically we're seeing those countries
Speaker 1: really being hit hard as well. And what has been
Speaker 1: predicted for the last probably thirty five forty years is
Speaker 1: actually occurring. The climates warning warming in the burned area
Speaker 1: is on the rise, and what we can see from
Speaker 1: here is that the area burned since two thousand until
Speaker 1: about today is going to double triple some estimates or
Speaker 1: even quadruple by so so it's not a new normal.
Speaker 1: It's actually not settled down. The best years are behind us.
Speaker 1: That's what the research is telling us. We were talking
Speaker 1: a little bit before we uh had you on here
Speaker 1: ask the question you were asking Johnny about, at what
Speaker 1: point is it do you run out? Yeah, it just
Speaker 1: seems like, you know, back in the day, we know
Speaker 1: that there used to be like a recurring mosaic kind
Speaker 1: of a fire pattern, right, and that seemed to keep
Speaker 1: the big fires from happening. And as much as it's
Speaker 1: been burning over the last ten years or however long
Speaker 1: it's been since nineteen, it would seem as though at
Speaker 1: some point the fires would have to start coming back
Speaker 1: on top of the you know what they've already burned,
Speaker 1: and thus it would start to limit like how big
Speaker 1: they could get. So it's like a two part question,
Speaker 1: like is that happening? And then in general, can you
Speaker 1: say what, like what percentage of I don't know if
Speaker 1: you want to do it nationally or just pick a
Speaker 1: state of like stuff that ken Burn has already burned
Speaker 1: in the last two decades, so tens of millions of
Speaker 1: acres have burned throughout the West, and we're seeing burned
Speaker 1: area rising in the Lake States and in the Northeast.
Speaker 1: There's a ton of prescribe burning in the South and
Speaker 1: the South coastal Plain and that's having an incredibly positive
Speaker 1: effect on low burned area in places like the Carolinas, Georgia, Laurida, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana.
Speaker 1: That those southern pine forests, they do a lot of
Speaker 1: prescribe burning, and so they have a different story right
Speaker 1: now that's going on in the West. We we don't
Speaker 1: have license to burn that many acres. Georgia, I think
Speaker 1: in the last two or three years had one year
Speaker 1: with a prescribed burned a million acres, which is a
Speaker 1: really big deal. And what that does is it changes
Speaker 1: the dynamics. If you burn it under the right fuel
Speaker 1: and weather conditions, you get good fire behavior and you
Speaker 1: get good fire effects. We're not up to those kinds
Speaker 1: of acres and we need to be burning that a
Speaker 1: really central part of your question. Then it's a super
Speaker 1: clever question. You think you think severe fires are driven
Speaker 1: by woody fuels, and once you start burning up a
Speaker 1: lot of the woody fuels, you would expect that, hey,
Speaker 1: it's going to tip back to a sort of a
Speaker 1: more benign system. Right, we're finding out it's different than
Speaker 1: that under climate change. Let's say an area burns and
Speaker 1: you get, you know, half a million acre fire. Let's
Speaker 1: say the Bootleg fire, right, You've been reading about that
Speaker 1: in Oregon, and there's a lot of severe fire behavior
Speaker 1: in that area. What we're seeing is those areas then
Speaker 1: get a lot of meadows and shrublands developing in and
Speaker 1: that's the first thing that comes back after the removal
Speaker 1: of forest, right by a severe fire. What happens is
Speaker 1: you'll get recurring ignitions on the margins of some of
Speaker 1: those and it will reburn again. And when it reburns.
Speaker 1: If you had surviving forest, or you had seedlings and
Speaker 1: saplings that started to seed in and regenerate a new forest,
Speaker 1: they get burnt out, and so you start converting big
Speaker 1: areas of forest um into areas where it's very difficult
Speaker 1: for forest to walk back again. And the question you
Speaker 1: asked before about that, Patrick, you know, I think about
Speaker 1: all the elk stands I've ever sat in before where
Speaker 1: I look across and I see a really cool meadow,
Speaker 1: and I'll see areas where the elker bedding first thing
Speaker 1: in the morning, and I'll look across the drainage and
Speaker 1: it's open and I can see for two mile. Also
Speaker 1: heard about coming in in the late season while the
Speaker 1: largest dropped its foliage, and you see this mosaic, this
Speaker 1: patchwork of conditions that provide sort of everything in a
Speaker 1: fairly small neighborhood. Well that's not what's repeating under the
Speaker 1: current fire regimes. We're getting a really different patchwork. It's
Speaker 1: really coarse. The burned areas are large because we're putting
Speaker 1: out all the small and medium sized fires. Because they
Speaker 1: occur under more moderate fire weather, they're easier to hook,
Speaker 1: they're easier to hold right and so the things that
Speaker 1: are burning the landscape are the fires that escape under
Speaker 1: really difficult, hot, dry, windy conditions, and they escape initial attack,
Speaker 1: They escape all valid attempts to try to keep it
Speaker 1: in a small paddock, you know, to keep the fire
Speaker 1: small and and resources. Firefighters have to fall back because
Speaker 1: otherwise it's dangerous, they'll be high loss of life. Can
Speaker 1: you can you explain, um, this is an our debate
Speaker 1: we're having or not debate. We're just the acusting this. Uh,
Speaker 1: how some fires, you know you'll hear layman such as myself,
Speaker 1: you know, we'll talk about a fire, um burned too
Speaker 1: hot right or what was the term you're using seth
Speaker 1: soil glazing right where it creates this this situation where
Speaker 1: it's hard for the forest to recover, as opposed to
Speaker 1: certain kind of fires that maybe are not the not
Speaker 1: the case, Like, what's the vocabulary for what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to get at here about these fires that that that
Speaker 1: that just strip it of organic strip the soil of
Speaker 1: any kind of organic matter. It's very hard to come
Speaker 1: back versus I don't know, a good fire, a happy fire. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So in terms of the words, intensity means the energy
Speaker 1: that's released at the head and fire the flaming front
Speaker 1: of a fire, right, and that's sort of that's in
Speaker 1: killer watts. It's a bunch of energy and the effects
Speaker 1: are the fire. We discussed them as severity, and it
Speaker 1: can be soil severity. How bad is to cook out
Speaker 1: the duff and litter in the organics? Right, And then
Speaker 1: you've got severity as it relates to what happened to
Speaker 1: the forest that used to be there, how much got killed?
Speaker 1: And we think about severity in both of those ways.
Speaker 1: Right now, when soil severity is low and we have
Speaker 1: sort of intermediate uh, fire severity in terms of fire
Speaker 1: effects on the forest, what you see is all sorts
Speaker 1: of opportunities for forests to walk back. But when you
Speaker 1: have soil severity that's really high and centuries millennia of
Speaker 1: duff and litter and organic accumulation gets cooked out to
Speaker 1: you know, ten twelve inches, you're literally starting over, and
Speaker 1: it can take hundreds of years for a forest to reobtain.
Speaker 1: When fire soil severity is fine, it can burn down,
Speaker 1: you say it can. It can burn down twelve inches
Speaker 1: like some seed hiding out down there. It's just gone.
Speaker 1: So there's some seeds in the soil what we call
Speaker 1: the soil seed reserve or the seed cash that have
Speaker 1: got a lot of apps for being able to hang out,
Speaker 1: and they actually many of them are turned on by
Speaker 1: by high heat. So when you're hunting in a logical
Speaker 1: area and you see a bunch of c and this,
Speaker 1: for example, hanging out seeds in the seed cache got
Speaker 1: turned on by the heating and there are that's the
Speaker 1: treatment that allows them to germinate and become shrubs, um
Speaker 1: others that that rely on perennial root systems. If the
Speaker 1: heat is too high, then an awful lot of the
Speaker 1: herbs and the grasses and stuff, it's a do over
Speaker 1: for them and they have to get seeded in from
Speaker 1: someplace else. So soil severy is a big deal, and
Speaker 1: it's a super smart question because in this whole mix
Speaker 1: of how do patterns influence forest fires that we like
Speaker 1: versus those that do damage to the habitat and resources,
Speaker 1: all of this comes into the max how much duff
Speaker 1: and litter is they're available to burn. If you have
Speaker 1: a really hot fire, a lot of times you'll see
Speaker 1: this smoldering combustion go on for weeks and that smoldering
Speaker 1: combustion is what if it's hot and dry, is what
Speaker 1: will cook out the soil. So it's just constant heating
Speaker 1: sitting on top of that soil, and you'll see these
Speaker 1: red soils and ashed soils right when you're out there
Speaker 1: in the bush, and it's because high soil severity has
Speaker 1: occurred and it's going to very tough for the forest
Speaker 1: to come back. I find that when people talk about
Speaker 1: you know, oh, the problem is that we didn't do this,
Speaker 1: or the problem is this sometimes kind of demonstrates someone's
Speaker 1: particular worldview UM, meaning someone from a certain industry. You
Speaker 1: might point and be like, oh, it's because we're not
Speaker 1: doing forest management. It's because the you know, or it's
Speaker 1: because the radical environmental um element won't let us do
Speaker 1: what we need to do. Or someone might say, oh,
Speaker 1: it's because you know climate change UM. And a lot
Speaker 1: of times it's sort of like ties into sort of
Speaker 1: you know where your biases are. But talk about management
Speaker 1: for a minute, meaning if we had the public will
Speaker 1: in the in the public will and the resources to
Speaker 1: address what we could address outside of trying to tackle
Speaker 1: global climate change UM. Not that we should leave it untackled,
Speaker 1: but just that look like that's a bigger, probably decades
Speaker 1: centuries long problem. Um, what in the immediate in the
Speaker 1: immediate term, if we had public will and resources, could
Speaker 1: we actually be doing right now to get a grip
Speaker 1: on the problem? And who what stands in the way
Speaker 1: of us? Well, I got a lead was saying that
Speaker 1: the big ticket item is reducing greenhouse gas emissions. That's
Speaker 1: what's driving the bus on big area burned right now,
Speaker 1: and so grabbing ahold of it and having the mindset
Speaker 1: that we're going to do something about those emissions is
Speaker 1: super critical because it's going to take decades for that
Speaker 1: change to pulse through the system and for CEO two
Speaker 1: in the atmosphere to come down. So it's yesterday we
Speaker 1: have to start that process. That's probing the bus. In
Speaker 1: terms of in terms of what's going on with the forest,
Speaker 1: we know that area burns driven by hot, dry climate, windy,
Speaker 1: severe weather, that kind of thing. But we know that
Speaker 1: to fuel and forced density and that sort of thing
Speaker 1: is what creates the intense heating that causes soil severity
Speaker 1: and fire severity. And so going back to the things
Speaker 1: that I study, when I look back on the historical landscapes.
Speaker 1: What I see is on the ridge tops, on the
Speaker 1: dry south aspects, the forests were really open. Sometimes you'd
Speaker 1: call them just a sparse woodland, you know, open pines
Speaker 1: on dry doug first sites, open woodland of doug fur,
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, open limber pine sites. And and
Speaker 1: what's happened in during this period of fire exclusion, which
Speaker 1: starts with the loss of indigenous burning hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: hundred seventy years ago, trees started seating in, and they
Speaker 1: started getting bigger, and they kept seating in, especially the
Speaker 1: ones that are fire intolerant and shade loving. Okay, so
Speaker 1: doug furs, grand Furst, white first, those sorts of things
Speaker 1: are are seeding in and so open becomes closed over
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty years. And it's that patchwork of
Speaker 1: open and closed conditions that changed how fire flowed on
Speaker 1: the landscape. When you had an open canopy condition, fires
Speaker 1: would stay on the forest floor and they'd burn up
Speaker 1: the dead wood that accumulated, and free quent fires increase
Speaker 1: the likelihood that the next fire would be low severity.
Speaker 1: So you had these frequent low severity systems in the
Speaker 1: dryer forest down in the valley bottoms around the north aspects,
Speaker 1: you would see conditions that would be more would be denser,
Speaker 1: and there'd be more layered. And that's where different kinds
Speaker 1: of habitats were occurring, but they didn't dominate the entire landscape, right,
Speaker 1: And so the way fire flowed on the landscape was
Speaker 1: influenced by how much deadwood, how open or closed, and
Speaker 1: how layered the canopy was. And so you'd see this
Speaker 1: mosaic being repeated, not in the same place, but you'd
Speaker 1: see it the shifting mosaic occurring and that's those were
Speaker 1: feedbacks to reducing the severities of the next fires. Big
Speaker 1: fires are not noteworthy in the historical record. There are
Speaker 1: many many big fires. That's what's going on inside of them.
Speaker 1: Those those boundaries that's changed. He used to be a
Speaker 1: patchwork of of low severity, didn't burn high severity kind
Speaker 1: of in between, right, And so you get this very
Speaker 1: blotchy pattern and that produced all the habitats for the
Speaker 1: critters that were interested in And that's what went out
Speaker 1: of the system, right. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: it has to do with the a lot of factors
Speaker 1: that sort of collaborate or come together to create a
Speaker 1: condition of forests and forestry were not the original intent
Speaker 1: of the U S forest Ors. It was protecting water
Speaker 1: and grazing that was the original intent of the Forest Service.
Speaker 1: After World War Two, trees and logs became important, and
Speaker 1: we started logging the big trees because they had the
Speaker 1: most volume at the time and they were most merchantable.
Speaker 1: And every time we'd pull out big sticks, trees would
Speaker 1: regenerate and release and make the forest denser. So you
Speaker 1: can see that evolution of several factors coming together, and
Speaker 1: by four we got the ten em rule. We're putting
Speaker 1: fires out by ten am, and we're keeping less than
Speaker 1: ten acres, and so now you have fifty sixty years
Speaker 1: where the forest has a chance to get dense layered
Speaker 1: and be now prone to severe fire in a lot
Speaker 1: more places. I got a quick question, um, Paul, is
Speaker 1: is that something like that was open grown forests like
Speaker 1: you were talking about back in the day. Is that
Speaker 1: something that with management today that like for Service is
Speaker 1: trying to get back to or is that something that's
Speaker 1: just like never gonna happen again. That's a great question,
Speaker 1: and it's a big ticket item, not just the Forest Service,
Speaker 1: but a lot of forest managers are literally trying to
Speaker 1: put those open ground conditions with the bigger trees on
Speaker 1: the landscape because big trees that bark fire tolerant you know, pine,
Speaker 1: big duck for big western march, they can tolerate fire.
Speaker 1: And so getting stuff you know, fifteen to thirty totes
Speaker 1: back on the landscape and having those via the dominant
Speaker 1: veg cover is the bed hedge on climate change and
Speaker 1: changing fire regimes. So they're doing it in many places
Speaker 1: that they can uh where really it makes sense in
Speaker 1: the landscape right hot dry places, places that are gonna
Speaker 1: need to stay open to stay in forest when you
Speaker 1: get too into where the next big fire is gonna hit.
Speaker 1: Are you, guys, do you have like a sophisticated modeling
Speaker 1: mechanism that allows you to in some way predict what's
Speaker 1: most likely to go? Or is it is there just
Speaker 1: too much sort of randomness around cause that prevents you
Speaker 1: from really understanding, you know, what's next. If anybody, if
Speaker 1: any of us had that model, we'd be wealthy. People
Speaker 1: wouldn't um the There's a lot of cool modeling going
Speaker 1: on right now that predicts if you have ignitions. So
Speaker 1: a lot of my modeling friends will nuke the landscape
Speaker 1: with random ignitions. And the last the question what will
Speaker 1: um fire size and fire severity be under different weather conditions? Right,
Speaker 1: and so they can create sort of map services of
Speaker 1: what's likely. They call it a quantitative risk assessment. It's
Speaker 1: being done all over the United States right now with
Speaker 1: some existing tools. The problem is they are random factors.
Speaker 1: There's a ton of human ignitions. Where are they going
Speaker 1: to occur? Nobody knows. So often conditions are ready to
Speaker 1: burn across an enormous area, tens of millions of acres,
Speaker 1: but nobody knows where the human ignition is coming from.
Speaker 1: Nobody knows where you're going to get the dry lightning.
Speaker 1: We get these dry convective storms all the time, right,
Speaker 1: You've seen them out there on the landscape. Sometimes they're wet,
Speaker 1: their thunderstorms with a lot of rain. Sometimes they're dry
Speaker 1: and they'll just bomb a mountain range and you know,
Speaker 1: put it on fire. So, um, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: wild cards in the mix for these factors as they
Speaker 1: have to come together, and in the randomness of the
Speaker 1: ignitions is a big part of it. Uh, do humans
Speaker 1: lead lightning for causes of major fires? And a lot
Speaker 1: of areas. They really do a lot of areas the
Speaker 1: fires are actually human caused. What are they doing? What
Speaker 1: are what? What are they? What are we doing? Like
Speaker 1: you know, flicking matches, throwing cigarettes out of the window,
Speaker 1: Like what is the primary thing that folks are up to?
Speaker 1: So um, So we look at all the ignition data
Speaker 1: across the western US right now, we have ignition data
Speaker 1: sets over the last decades, and believe it or not,
Speaker 1: hunter campfires are a big deal. We see we see
Speaker 1: sort of the ignition period of the normal fire season,
Speaker 1: but when we get into the rett and we start
Speaker 1: seeing people in the woods starting in late August September
Speaker 1: on into October, there's another peak from hunter fires that
Speaker 1: essentially are igniting continuing tonight the landscape. So hunters can
Speaker 1: contribute an awful lot by you know, making sure that
Speaker 1: they they tamped their fire out. But we actually see
Speaker 1: a pulse in the data most years. You know, that's
Speaker 1: that's really interesting, man, because I kind of wrote them off.
Speaker 1: But I had a guy know who's a firefighter and Wyoming,
Speaker 1: and he swore up and down to me that they
Speaker 1: when archery season, when elk archery opens, they have a
Speaker 1: busy few days of responding to fires. I was like,
Speaker 1: that can't be true, man, he goes, I'm telling you, dude,
Speaker 1: every year it's a real thing, and it's it's bigger
Speaker 1: than Wyoming, right, Um, and a lot of us when
Speaker 1: it's pretty darn cold out there, we'll put together a
Speaker 1: little warm and fire and and they, you know, critters
Speaker 1: come through the neighborhood and all of a sudden we're
Speaker 1: shooting and flinging arrows. And sometimes that fire doesn't get
Speaker 1: tamped down, so um and and they'll take a walk
Speaker 1: because the fuels are still drying. Right, I want to
Speaker 1: get back. I'm gonna let I'm gonna let these other
Speaker 1: guys hit some questions. But I want to circle back
Speaker 1: on part of Yanni's question that I was particularly trigued by.
Speaker 1: And you didn't get around to it. And maybe it's
Speaker 1: too hard to answer, but um, if you model, let
Speaker 1: let's take you can do your own state Washington, you
Speaker 1: can do California whatever you want. If it's possible to
Speaker 1: answer this, you take a map of what could burn,
Speaker 1: or you know, like take a map of like highly likelihood,
Speaker 1: high likelihood landscapes and Washington that are prime for a fire. Um,
Speaker 1: and what percentage of that have we like whittled away
Speaker 1: at over the last couple of decades, meaning well, in
Speaker 1: five years, well California or Washington have run out of
Speaker 1: have like run out of what could burn because they burned? No, no,
Speaker 1: I did answer the question, what is the model? The
Speaker 1: model that you're thinking about is actually not the right one.
Speaker 1: As the climate warms and ignition continue to increase over time,
Speaker 1: areas that already burned produce all sorts of flashy fuels.
Speaker 1: They're available to burn every single year. So depending upon
Speaker 1: the severity of the previous fire, you can continue to
Speaker 1: burn and reburn those areas, and more often you reburn
Speaker 1: them in a short time span, the less likely that
Speaker 1: they'll come back to forest if the fires are severe. Okay,
Speaker 1: that was that was the gas being smarter than the host.
Speaker 1: I forgot about that? You did? You did? Uh? You
Speaker 1: did answer that? Um? Thank you? All right? What else
Speaker 1: you guys got? I got one, Paul. So we know
Speaker 1: that like, low intensity fires are generally good for deer
Speaker 1: and elk and all kinds of other you know, animals
Speaker 1: and birds. When you when you get one of these
Speaker 1: giant high intensity fires, how do animals like elk, Like,
Speaker 1: how does that affect how they use the landscape after
Speaker 1: one of these really high intensity giant fires, Like where
Speaker 1: I heard of a couple of thousand elk may have
Speaker 1: lived in one drainage and now that it's all burned out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that happened to me and my favorite hunting spots
Speaker 1: in the Blue Mountains of Oregon. I think it's happening
Speaker 1: to a lot of hunters these days. Yeah so so,
Speaker 1: But what I wanted to use as a specific example,
Speaker 1: um where I was there before the fire and then
Speaker 1: after the fire, and and had the hunting experience after
Speaker 1: the fire each year. Okay, So we hunted in an
Speaker 1: area where there was fifty acre fires. A big fire
Speaker 1: is super hot and it killed most of the forest.
Speaker 1: This is uh an area we hunt in the late hunt.
Speaker 1: So we're there last week of October and first week
Speaker 1: in November, right, and we're hunting in snow and so
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a fabulous time to hunt. The
Speaker 1: bowls are in bachelor groups and a lot of times
Speaker 1: we'll get a lot of excellent looks. Right, And so
Speaker 1: we hunted this before the fire and was very very
Speaker 1: productive area. After the fire, it was so hot, but
Speaker 1: the forage conditions were really good for about five or
Speaker 1: six years, so we still tag bowls in this area
Speaker 1: after the fire, And then then this came up. The
Speaker 1: lodgepole pine started falling down in jacks drawing, and we
Speaker 1: hunted for two years after that. We had a hard
Speaker 1: time even getting around the dog here, lodgepole pine, cutting lanes,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Um. But eventually it became too
Speaker 1: hard for hunters and elk to reoccupy the area. So
Speaker 1: this is a vast area that's going to have to
Speaker 1: grow open forest, a lot of lodgepoles, smaller stuff is
Speaker 1: gonna have to fall down, creating openings in the woods,
Speaker 1: shade out the Cno, this that sort of thing. I'll
Speaker 1: never get to hunt there in the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: What generation will really depends on sort of the disturbance
Speaker 1: history that happens in there in the coming decades. If
Speaker 1: they just allow it to grow up, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: a very dense dog hair place with cis and lodge
Speaker 1: pole pine. You know, the stem counts and most of
Speaker 1: the areas where I had stands, we're in the five
Speaker 1: to twenty thousand lodge bowl stems breaker they're just it's
Speaker 1: like hair and the dog literally dance lodge Pole pine
Speaker 1: after the fire. This is a six thousand to nearly
Speaker 1: seven thousand feet elevation, So we're up in this sabutin
Speaker 1: right in the cold forest, and it's gonna be a
Speaker 1: long time. If other fires come in there and they
Speaker 1: start pockmarking that landscape again, uh, then you'll start to
Speaker 1: see those habitats come alive again. But it's not interesting
Speaker 1: for forage. It's hard to get around and eat um.
Speaker 1: I sort of used to think from the days when
Speaker 1: my father took me hunting that if it's hard for
Speaker 1: me to get around, it's going to be hard for
Speaker 1: white tail to get around. I grew up in the
Speaker 1: Lake States hunting in Minnesota, and the same thing. You know,
Speaker 1: if they're really having a pussy toe to get from
Speaker 1: place to place and it takes a long time and
Speaker 1: it's difficult to find forage and not going to hang out.
Speaker 1: There were tremendous bedding and forage areas in this patchwork
Speaker 1: for many decades and that's gone. That's a completely different
Speaker 1: look and feel to the place. So decades and there's
Speaker 1: got to be fire and other stuff going on to
Speaker 1: start breaking it up again recreating That was the I
Speaker 1: have a question Paul, you kind of touched on it
Speaker 1: about you know, super popular now and force management to
Speaker 1: bring prescribed fire now as you talked about in the south,
Speaker 1: but more so at that like inner Mountain West or
Speaker 1: western landscapes, especially in the Wui's like all those will
Speaker 1: and urban areas. Um, are we losing our window with
Speaker 1: climate change to do have a lot more prescribed fire
Speaker 1: because I know you have the weather conditions, have to
Speaker 1: be perfect safety everything and have fire conditions and have
Speaker 1: the burn you want. Are we Is that affecting like
Speaker 1: how much prescribed fire we can put on the ground
Speaker 1: or no, is it not as much as we inc
Speaker 1: It's a smart question. The windows really shifting. It's getting smaller,
Speaker 1: it's not getting bigger um and a lot of but
Speaker 1: there's still a ton of management going on and interface
Speaker 1: environments by a lot of different kinds of managers. A
Speaker 1: lot of what they're doing is they're coming in and
Speaker 1: they're thinning there, creating small piles for the fuel concentrations.
Speaker 1: They're burning those piles and you'll see a lot less
Speaker 1: broadcast burning, which is the wild card right in those situations.
Speaker 1: Where he got homes tucked in and and dense developments.
Speaker 1: But you still have the pile burning that you can do.
Speaker 1: And if you think about it, you can do pile
Speaker 1: burning all winter long. Um so uh and there's a
Speaker 1: pretty big window for that. So even with I guess
Speaker 1: a two part of that. So even with climate change,
Speaker 1: you're still saying we're we're doing good by pre commercial
Speaker 1: thinnings and mastication and all that, just reducing that trees
Speaker 1: per acre in a lot of that area. Even though
Speaker 1: we are getting hotter and drier, we're still that's still
Speaker 1: a good move mint of force management. Yeah, we we
Speaker 1: have to use as much of the window as possible
Speaker 1: and uh and and and treat these areas basically keep
Speaker 1: people in their infrastructure safe and then move out from
Speaker 1: that because if you think about it, how the fire
Speaker 1: comes to those communities is also a really key variable.
Speaker 1: Remember Paradise burn in California burned from spot fires five
Speaker 1: miles away, right, and so so changing that how fire
Speaker 1: operates on the broader landscape needs to be coupled with
Speaker 1: really creating those safe environments in the wooee and places
Speaker 1: near them. So, yeah, use as much of the window
Speaker 1: as you can. And the really cool thing we're seeing
Speaker 1: is once we bust into an area and we get
Speaker 1: good treatments, the window gets bigger. We have more and
Speaker 1: more opportunity because we've knocked the fuels down and so
Speaker 1: the maintenance work that goes on there's a lot less
Speaker 1: hazardous and so. But the one key part of your
Speaker 1: question is if we don't have a fairly large footprint,
Speaker 1: as the window shrinks, it's going to be less and
Speaker 1: less likely that we'll be able to have the sort
Speaker 1: of size of the footprint that we need. So timing matters, Paul.
Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, the governor of Wyoming hadn't
Speaker 1: made an interesting comment. It was during the sort of
Speaker 1: height of this this movement to take federally managed lands
Speaker 1: and privatize them or transfer them to the states, and Um,
Speaker 1: the governor Wyoming had made a comment that if Wyoming
Speaker 1: had all of the federal lands under its jurisdiction, one
Speaker 1: fire season would bankrupt the state or something to that effect.
Speaker 1: Um him just pointing out the incredible cost of firework.
Speaker 1: You mentioned your own agency, the U. S. Forest Service,
Speaker 1: And it's sort of, you know, it's it's evolving gradually
Speaker 1: shifting set of priorities. What how much you know can
Speaker 1: you quantify the sort of like time, money, brain space
Speaker 1: that your agency is now dedicated to fire, presumably at
Speaker 1: the expense of other priorities. Years ago, sevent of the
Speaker 1: gross National Forest Service budget went to fire suppression on
Speaker 1: an average fire year. That varies now between fifty and
Speaker 1: of the budget. So you can see that the fire
Speaker 1: issues is much larger, and it's incomprehensible for an agency
Speaker 1: like the Forest Service or any other responsible agency to
Speaker 1: say that we're not going to try to keep people
Speaker 1: safe and to protect the land and so so you'll
Speaker 1: see those investments increasing, but the proactive work has lagged behind.
Speaker 1: Uh And if you stop and think about if the
Speaker 1: research is showing that being able to work on the
Speaker 1: landscape before the fact has a higher payoff than reacting
Speaker 1: in some of the worst moments when it's going to
Speaker 1: be difficult to stop the fires and keeping small. So
Speaker 1: so there needs to be this coupling at fairly large
Speaker 1: scales of trying to keep people safe while with proactive
Speaker 1: work we're able to be able to buy down the
Speaker 1: changes that have occurred over the last century and a half.
Speaker 1: And you're seeing the current administration talk pretty seriously about
Speaker 1: making some significant events, and a lot of our neighbors
Speaker 1: Californias has invested five hundred million dollars, the state of
Speaker 1: Oregon is investing hundreds of millions. Washington State kind of
Speaker 1: the same thing. And so you're seeing a lot of
Speaker 1: state and federal folks looking at how they can put
Speaker 1: together the people and the resources to operate at scale
Speaker 1: on the problem. Yeah, I imagine it's hard to get
Speaker 1: It's hard to get policymakers, politicians convinced, um, you know,
Speaker 1: when budgets are tight, to convince them that you can
Speaker 1: spend a dollar now and save two later. Right, Like
Speaker 1: the logic adds up. But I imagine it's still a
Speaker 1: hard conversation to have, and it's probably hard to get
Speaker 1: people to want to invest up front rather than waiting
Speaker 1: till it's you know, literally a house on fire, um,
Speaker 1: and and deal with it then at at a higher cost. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And you know, we're starting to get some really good
Speaker 1: data um Headwaters Economics. A number of our partners across
Speaker 1: the West are are capturing the cost after the fire
Speaker 1: kinds of estimates, and they're comparing it to the suppression estimates,
Speaker 1: and I think increasingly as these data get out, people
Speaker 1: are basically seeing it's a clever move to be able
Speaker 1: to minimize the total impact on society because they after
Speaker 1: the fire impact is much larger than the suppression cost
Speaker 1: or even the cost to do the proactive work. So
Speaker 1: you're seeing that starting to hit pay dirt, and you're
Speaker 1: starting to see those kinds of decisions and investments. You
Speaker 1: think about it, it's it's a fairly significant shift and
Speaker 1: people have to really sharpen their pencils and look at
Speaker 1: the trade offs. And because there's not an endless supply
Speaker 1: of money, right, they're having to make tough decisions about
Speaker 1: where to invest resources. So Paul just we touched on
Speaker 1: climate change with fire intensity and then like early succession,
Speaker 1: like a lot of forests transitioning from that early successional
Speaker 1: to late successional you know, age class tree s breaker.
Speaker 1: But what about is there any significant impact on over
Speaker 1: on fire as a landscape level um with like insect
Speaker 1: and disease, So they have like like white pine blister
Speaker 1: rested with white pine, mountain pine beetle, or even just
Speaker 1: invasives to like cheat grass and stuff, Like how how
Speaker 1: big of a role is the shifting of insect disease
Speaker 1: or invasives playing in the change of fire intensities in
Speaker 1: the West. So in terms of invasives, the more severe
Speaker 1: the fire and the more the soil severity impact, the
Speaker 1: likelihood of invasives really getting a stronghold and expanding is
Speaker 1: a big deal. Invasives are less than well understood problem
Speaker 1: in in the public eye, and they really, they really
Speaker 1: have the ability to change the landscape. Think about cheat
Speaker 1: grass in the places that you've hunted. When cheat grass
Speaker 1: obtains across the landscape, it changes the fire regime so
Speaker 1: that the bunch grasses that used to be there, when
Speaker 1: they are replaced by cheat grasses, you have a continuous
Speaker 1: fuel bed and those areas can keep burning. And so
Speaker 1: cheat grass gets a purchase on the landscape and it
Speaker 1: keeps growing in a much larger area. The same with
Speaker 1: a number of invasives. So invasives are a big deal.
Speaker 1: The bark beetle thing, the bark beetle of feedback is
Speaker 1: on the front end, right, So you have too many
Speaker 1: trees a low vigor during the hot, dry years, you
Speaker 1: get a lot of bark beetle mortality. Think of the
Speaker 1: million acres in British Columbia that went down early in
Speaker 1: the century, right, Um, awful lot of that collapses over
Speaker 1: one to three decades. And now you've got this incredible
Speaker 1: injection of fuel into the system, and that will produce
Speaker 1: a very different response across fairly large areas where you
Speaker 1: have big beetle upbreaks. So that's kind of the tail
Speaker 1: wagon the dog and that sort of thing. Um does
Speaker 1: do wildfires sanitize so that you don't have bark beetles? Yeah,
Speaker 1: for a time. And if the forest come back, and
Speaker 1: if they come back really dense, and once they get
Speaker 1: two diameters that are post material for the Beatles, you'll
Speaker 1: see that cycle happen again. So the fire regime, having
Speaker 1: a characteristic fire regime for the forest type is a
Speaker 1: key to keeping those things in balance over big space
Speaker 1: and time. That makes sense. The fire regime, having a
Speaker 1: characteristic fire regime is the engine that drives the system. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense, thank you. Yeah, I know with
Speaker 1: climate change and fire shifting a lot. Now do you
Speaker 1: feel like we're making a positive UM advance socially? Like
Speaker 1: people are getting more accepting of like prescribed burning, understanding
Speaker 1: fire has a role. But then you know, high severity
Speaker 1: fires are damaging. Um, and do you think management is
Speaker 1: kind of transitioning to you know? It kind of seems
Speaker 1: like it's a pendulum swinging back and forth from the
Speaker 1: you know, ten am policy of fire suppression to you know,
Speaker 1: but like, do you think we're going in a positive route?
Speaker 1: I guess I do. It's another really smart question. So, UM,
Speaker 1: when I talk to my social scientists friends, what they're
Speaker 1: basically telling me is people get it. They're accepting of
Speaker 1: the treatments that are important to to move the compass
Speaker 1: heading right from where we are to a better place. Um,
Speaker 1: but we're also learning from them based on pastic experience
Speaker 1: that if treatments in the woods are driven primarily by
Speaker 1: a commercial desire, there's mistrust in the process. But where
Speaker 1: the timber removed is a byproduct of getting the right
Speaker 1: stuff done in the woods to be able to change conditions.
Speaker 1: There's a high degree of trust and that and that's
Speaker 1: a certain they call it a zone of agreement. People
Speaker 1: want to do that, but but the trust depends on
Speaker 1: being driven to climate change adapt and fire regime adapt
Speaker 1: the woods. It makes sense, so he as it does?
Speaker 1: Or do do you feel like the public is generally
Speaker 1: being more trustworthy of the federal especially the US Forest Service,
Speaker 1: as far as whenever kind of you know, any timber
Speaker 1: management is done it is not for timber production, but
Speaker 1: more for a civil culture based landscape level management. Do
Speaker 1: you think that's changing in the public's eye they're more um,
Speaker 1: you know, accepting of that, or do think it's still
Speaker 1: when they see any timber management being done they look
Speaker 1: at it as it's for that value. That's a good
Speaker 1: question because I think a lot of people who aren't
Speaker 1: well schooled reflectively, like if they see logging activity, they're
Speaker 1: sort of trained to be like, oh, that's bad. Yes,
Speaker 1: And how are those timber companies managing compared to the
Speaker 1: Forest Service? Like, I assume they're probably doing a fairly
Speaker 1: good job, but the perception is probably much different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of layers there. I'll try to
Speaker 1: hit it with one sort of overarching idea. The public
Speaker 1: is a big thing, right. It's made up of all
Speaker 1: sorts of disparate groups with different histories and attitudes and
Speaker 1: concerns and values. By and large, there's expanding trust to
Speaker 1: do good work with the devil's in the details, right, Um,
Speaker 1: what we generally see from the social science studies is uh,
Speaker 1: people who live closer to the land. So I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of the rural communities, people that are natural resource space there,
Speaker 1: Um they've got mills nearby, their ranching communities, farming communities.
Speaker 1: Where people live close to the land, there's very strong
Speaker 1: concern about the current conditions, and people are cooler about
Speaker 1: getting the work done. Where people live in more metropolitan
Speaker 1: areas and they're a little bit more detached, we see
Speaker 1: more of this highly different view of of sort of
Speaker 1: disaffection with forest management techniques and silvicultural techniques because there's
Speaker 1: still a deep vein of mistrust in some communities and
Speaker 1: so an awful lot of When I speak in public,
Speaker 1: I basically say I'm talking to you about a social
Speaker 1: problem that has an ecological explanation, all right, because the
Speaker 1: solution lives in the social domain. It's people coming together
Speaker 1: to agree on what to do, where to do it,
Speaker 1: and how to do it. Um. Well, I can explain
Speaker 1: from my research and that of a bunch of other
Speaker 1: colleagues how we got here and what the science suggests
Speaker 1: represents good work. But in the end, it's people coming
Speaker 1: together to forward to those agreements. And whether that happens
Speaker 1: fast enough and that scale, it remains to be seen.
Speaker 1: We're not there, Paul. I think we're good. Man appreciate it. Hey, thanks,
Speaker 1: thanks the work you guys do, keep it going. Thanks
Speaker 1: a lot again, Paul Hesberg. Um, he's got like a that.
Speaker 1: He's got some kind of ted talking. Go check out too.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll put that in liner notes. Um, thank you
Speaker 1: guys all sitting here. Brodie, thanks for the smoke Lake trout.
Speaker 1: Next time, I won't dry it out pull a little earlier.
Speaker 1: I got a few more filets in there to experiment with.
Speaker 1: Rick and Seth. Thanks for hosting me on The Flintlock Hunt. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Chip in the poof available on Netflix. Yeah, thanks for
Speaker 1: having me on the podcast. Phil, thanks for stepping above
Speaker 1: and beyond man taking on like a producer role. Yeah, friends,
Speaker 1: it's harder than it looks tearing it up. Yeah, Johnny,
Speaker 1: thanks for drawing at sheet tag. Hey, you're very welcome.
Speaker 1: I should like to have one of those. I'll keep
Speaker 1: you all posted how it goes all right, So you
Speaker 1: guys soon