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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 2: Our colleague Noel can't be with us today, but he

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Speaker 2: will be returning shortly.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control Deck, and most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this

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Speaker 1: the stuff they don't want you to know. Today, we're

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Speaker 1: going back to the roots of conspiracy, stuff of stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. When Matt and I

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Speaker 1: started this show white some time ago, if time is

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Speaker 1: not a construct, we loved examining cover ups. We loved

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Speaker 1: to examining conspiracy theories. We also loved examining the paranormal.

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Speaker 1: One of the very first conversations, Matt, that you and

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Speaker 1: I had a while back when we first met, was

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Speaker 1: indeed about stuff like the Twilight Zone and X Files,

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Speaker 1: which still weirds me out because it was like my

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Speaker 1: first day or week on the job, and I probably

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Speaker 1: should have been asking work questions.

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Speaker 2: And No I think that was right on the money,

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Speaker 2: solidified something right we oh uh huh yeah and got

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Speaker 2: the poccor Like, just tell me more about how much

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Speaker 2: you're into this, because I'm in it too. Uh yeah.

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Speaker 2: We love paranormal stuff. I think that I don't know.

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Speaker 2: The folklore to it is always the most fascinating. I

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Speaker 2: think when we dive deep into these topics like we're

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Speaker 2: going to get into today, what are the roots of

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Speaker 2: these stories that get spread and continue spreading and everybody

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Speaker 2: tells their kids.

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Speaker 1: And why do some stay at the status of local

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Speaker 1: legends or family tales, and why do others spread across

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Speaker 1: the world, across generations, across civilizations, from the ancient times

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Speaker 1: to the modern day. It's a weird question, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's something that we're going to attempt to answer in

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Speaker 1: today's episode. We are I don't know. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about how I was thinking of the best way to

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Speaker 1: get into this. Have you ever picked up a hitchhiker

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Speaker 1: or have you ever hitchhiked? Not once, neither not once

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Speaker 1: not never? Huh Okay, yeah, well your mileage may vary, folks.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's a terrible, terrible pun. But everybody I think

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Speaker 1: has at some point maybe seen a mysterious, bizarre, extraordinary person. Right.

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Speaker 1: You might not have talked to them, but they may

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Speaker 1: be imprinted on your memory today. Like Matt, I will

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Speaker 1: always remember. Just for one example, I was reading Borhyes

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Speaker 1: on a public transit, right and stopping in a train station,

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Speaker 1: and I turned to look. There was another train across

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Speaker 1: the platform going in a different direction. I turned to look,

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Speaker 1: and there was this lady staring at me. And I

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Speaker 1: was by the window. I was holding this book, and

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Speaker 1: she held up the exact same not just the same book,

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Speaker 1: but the exact same trade paperback version of Labyrinths by Borges.

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Speaker 1: And then we just stared at each other and the

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Speaker 1: train took off in those opposite directions. I imagine we

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Speaker 1: will never meet again.

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Speaker 2: But I'm pretty sure that's a movie, Ben, You're just

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Speaker 2: remembering a movie you saw one time. I'm just joking.

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Speaker 2: That's like a movie moment, you know.

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Speaker 1: It was, yeah, you know, and if we had talked,

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Speaker 1: it might have ruined it. But you know, fellow Borges fan,

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Speaker 1: great taste in books, I guess, and that that was

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Speaker 1: not a supernatural nor extraordinary circumstance necessarily, right, That's just

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Speaker 1: a very bizarre coincidence. But if you ask a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, especially here in the West, about a strange

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Speaker 1: or disturbing person they may have seen, then they may

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Speaker 1: have told you a story about a ghostly entity that's

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Speaker 1: said to roam across the north and south of America,

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Speaker 1: Mexico and the southwestern US and Central America in particular,

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Speaker 1: an entity known as La Yirona or the Weeping Woman

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Speaker 1: or the whaling Woman. Now have you heard this story before, Matt,

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Speaker 1: Have you heard this legend?

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Speaker 2: Yes, most definitely, going back to those old conversations we had,

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Speaker 2: and it really it's a story that sticks with you

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Speaker 2: when you hear it as maybe an outsider from those

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Speaker 2: areas that we just mentioned where this story is very common.

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Speaker 2: It hits because, depending on which version you're told, it

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Speaker 2: is creepy it is really one of those things because

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Speaker 2: there's sound associated with the tail, right, There's almost always

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Speaker 2: a sound. There's almost always a lurking figure and then

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Speaker 2: often a chasing figure, right, which really just hmmm amps

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Speaker 2: up the fear and danger.

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Speaker 1: M Yeah. And you know, as we've said before, and

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Just as a disclaimer,

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Speaker 1: regardless of your personal beliefs, or experiences with the supernatural,

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Speaker 1: whether or not you believe in ghost If you are

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Speaker 1: in an unfamiliar territory and someone tells you sincerely that

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Speaker 1: a place is haunted, just don't go you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't be that guy in the movie. Just

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Speaker 1: don't don't mess with it.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and that's a really good point too, because

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Speaker 2: even if it's not something pair or normal, maybe there

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Speaker 2: are tales about it being haunted because there's a person

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Speaker 2: or a bad group of people around there that are blamed,

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Speaker 2: you know, or are a part of this thing that

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Speaker 2: becomes a tail. You never know, you never know, you.

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Speaker 1: Never know, like that old Oh gosh, it's not that old.

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Speaker 1: That documentary about a supposedly haunted abandoned mental.

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Speaker 2: Facility Session nine.

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Speaker 1: No, No, this it turned out to be true, though

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Speaker 1: it turned out to be partially based in truth. There

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Speaker 1: was a former resident I want to say a start

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Speaker 1: with a B. I can't remember, anyways, like an urban legend,

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Speaker 1: and the documentarians along the way found the root of

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Speaker 1: the story. Well, anyway, story for another day. Gather around

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Speaker 1: the campfire, folks, Here are the facts. If you're from Mexico,

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Speaker 1: the US, Central or South America, maybe further field these days,

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Speaker 1: you've heard some version of the legend of Lairona.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as we said, there are many different versions

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Speaker 2: of it, variations on a theme here that can they

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Speaker 2: continue to be told today? Oh yeah, let's do this.

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Speaker 2: Let's give a shout out to the Weeping Woman Encounters

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Speaker 2: with La Yourona by Edward Garcia Krall and Judith Beattie

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Speaker 2: b E A. T. T. Y. It's got all kinds

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Speaker 2: of different versions of the tale. And you know, a

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Speaker 2: legend encounters with something that is supposedly La Yourna and

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Speaker 2: again whether it's a sound or a woman whose faces

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Speaker 2: changed or something like that. But I guess let's let's

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Speaker 2: give you a version of it so that you can

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Speaker 2: have an understanding. Then we'll talk about the variations.

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Speaker 3: Once upon the time, the tour guy said, back in

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Speaker 3: the turn of the century, there was this this little

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Speaker 3: boy who lived on a farm by a lake. This

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Speaker 3: was a big operation on what you call it an estate,

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Speaker 3: and the boy's family had lots of servants, and his

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Speaker 3: family was very rich. Being rich don't make it happy.

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Speaker 3: You know, this kid is miserable. His mother died when

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Speaker 3: he was young. Because the boy was the son of

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Speaker 3: the patron, the wealthy owner. And because all the other

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Speaker 3: boys his age were sons of the servants, this little

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Speaker 3: boy had no real friends. His father, who was a

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Speaker 3: very nasty guy, wouldn't let him talk to the other kids.

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Speaker 3: So this boy, he just wanders around the estate when

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Speaker 3: he isn't with his tutor. His friends become the birds,

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Speaker 3: the trees, the little frogs hopping along the shore. While

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Speaker 3: he's distant for most things. He's a smart kid. He's

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Speaker 3: heard the rumors, the things adults say when they think

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Speaker 3: children aren't listening. And you know, it's surprising what children

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Speaker 3: can understand.

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Speaker 1: He was a crime.

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Speaker 3: He hears these whispers about his old man doing things

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Speaker 3: to women on the farm. It's all hushed up and

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Speaker 3: he owns the police, and sometimes the women disappear. The

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Speaker 3: kid don't think much of it, but he does like

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Speaker 3: the mystery. Kids love mysteries, right, so the tour guy says.

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Speaker 3: One night, the little boy wanders out along the lake

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Speaker 3: and he sees this lady along the shore. At first,

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Speaker 3: he thinks she's kind of walking on, maybe dancing, kind of.

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Speaker 3: He sneaks up as close as he dares, hiding in

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Speaker 3: the bushes until he sees her feet aren't touching the ground.

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Speaker 3: He can even, he thinks, sort of see through her

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Speaker 3: if he squints hard enough. And as he watches she

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Speaker 3: opens her mouth. Issy screams.

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Speaker 1: All right. And that is that is featuring the talents

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Speaker 1: of voice actor Jay Jones. This comes to us from

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Speaker 1: twelve ghost which is a fiction anthology that came out

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Speaker 1: in December that Matt u eped along with Aaron Mankey.

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Speaker 1: And we can tell you conclusively this version of the

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Speaker 1: tale is not true because it is from a work

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Speaker 1: of fiction. Also shout out to Chris Child, sound designer

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Speaker 1: on that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, but it is based on the tale of

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Speaker 2: law Yourna.

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Speaker 1: Right, it is it is and this has a lot

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Speaker 1: of those commonalities. Do check out twelve Ghosts if you,

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Speaker 1: if you get a chance, if you if you like

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Speaker 1: spooky fiction. You'll notice that the character who is telling

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Speaker 1: us the story pronounces it la la na instead of

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Speaker 1: la rona. There's a reason for that. And what is

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Speaker 1: that reason? Well, you have to listen to find out.

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Speaker 1: Call that to ease in the business, right.

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Speaker 2: And you can find out more by going to Grim

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Speaker 2: and Mild dot com slash twelve Ghosts. That's the numbers one,

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Speaker 2: two and then ghosts.

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Speaker 1: Perfect and Matt, I love that you're pointing out commonalities

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Speaker 1: in this right because we have both read a lot

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Speaker 1: of different versions of this story, and they the modern

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Speaker 1: ones primarily seem to focus on an indigenous woman, Indigenous

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Speaker 1: American woman who has born children consentually or non consensually

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Speaker 1: with with a wealthy person from Spain or someone descended

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Speaker 1: from the days of Spanish contact, and this harrowing personal

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Speaker 1: tragedy drives her to madness. The wealthy guy abandons her,

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Speaker 1: or the wealthy guy commits murders, or the wealthy guy

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Speaker 1: commits infidelity, and this character regardless of how they find

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Speaker 1: themselves there, they are consigned to a hellish afterlife where

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Speaker 1: they wander along the shore of a body of water, weeping, wailing, lamenting,

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Speaker 1: and then it gets worse, right, Like we were talking

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Speaker 1: about this a little bit earlier. In some versions, La

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Speaker 1: Yourona is not just sad, but she could also be

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Speaker 1: a threat to the living. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? What's really important here is that in many of them,

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Speaker 2: she kills her kids out of the whatever terrible situation

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Speaker 2: she's in or what she's going through. Sometimes she just

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Speaker 2: goes mad. And kills her children, and like, that's why

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Speaker 2: she's so scary, I think, because she committed some terrible, heinous,

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Speaker 2: many would say evil act. Right, and then she's out

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Speaker 2: there weeping, and for one reason or another, she either

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Speaker 2: doesn't know that her children are dead or she doesn't

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Speaker 2: know what she did to them, right, and she's still

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Speaker 2: looking for her children. And that whole like seeking out

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Speaker 2: another child, is a really important aspect, often to the tail,

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Speaker 2: because it means if you are a child and out

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Speaker 2: near the lake, the water, whatever body of water it is,

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Speaker 2: or just at night or three days after it rained,

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Speaker 2: depending on which tale you've heard, she could be coming

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Speaker 2: after you because she thinks you might be one of

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Speaker 2: her kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and put yourself in the moment, folks. The first

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Speaker 1: things that will happen in terms of sensory experience, you

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Speaker 1: might see a distant figure, sometimes clad in white, in

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Speaker 1: a wraith like wrapping of some sort, which also is

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Speaker 1: older than you think. But often people hear this before

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Speaker 1: they see it. They hear something that sounds like a

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Speaker 1: person whose life has absolutely been broken, weeping, wailing again, lamentation,

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Speaker 1: And we're saying it again, but we want to emphasize

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Speaker 1: that's why it's in the name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I imagine if that's the first thing that happens.

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Speaker 2: You're in the dark, maybe you're alone, you're just walking

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Speaker 2: along a roadside, and you hear that in the distance somewhere,

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Speaker 2: and it's getting louder and louder as you continue along

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Speaker 2: the path. Right, that alone, probably gonna nope out head

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Speaker 2: the other way. I would maybe, Well, I'm not sure,

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Speaker 2: because maybe it's someone in trouble. And that's where the

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Speaker 2: story really kicks in too, Right, Maybe there's someone in need.

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Speaker 2: Maybe there's someone that you could provide help for. Maybe

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Speaker 2: you see a woman, a figure in the distance that

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Speaker 2: looks like they're just crying their eyes out. Would you

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Speaker 2: want to provide assistance and help? A part of you

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Speaker 2: probably would, right? And what if you're in a different situation.

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Speaker 2: What if you just saw a woman on a park

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Speaker 2: bench who seemed to be doing the same thing, right,

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Speaker 2: would you help?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. And then to add to that, you

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Speaker 1: can see this idea of an explanation for an anomalous

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Speaker 1: sound throughout culture. Matt. Earlier, you did some great stuff

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Speaker 1: on the Indonesian cryptid, the auhoul, which is primarily identified

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Speaker 1: by or known by its sound. We also see that

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Speaker 1: as time goes on with this story that dates at

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Speaker 1: least back to the time of Spanish contact, we see

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Speaker 1: that the story has evolved. It's merged with other stories

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Speaker 1: that were once separate but had enough in common that

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Speaker 1: over the great game of telephone, they got kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, they got multiversed, they got adapted and revised, right,

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Speaker 1: And this kind of practice, the syncretism, has happened way

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Speaker 1: way way before Rick and Morty or Marvel films. One

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Speaker 1: thing that you might be hearing fellow listeners about the

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Speaker 1: basic you know on the story. You might say it's

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Speaker 1: missing a few parts. Doesn't she interact with people in

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Speaker 1: other ways? You may have heard a more recent version

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Speaker 1: that picks up the story of the Ghostly hitch Hiker,

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Speaker 1: another very popular one in the West.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've talked about this one briefly in a couple

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Speaker 2: other episodes. But it's just the concept where a person

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Speaker 2: is picked up a hitch hiker, often a woman, so

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Speaker 2: like you can kind of see where maybe there was

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Speaker 2: some transition there into this story, often a woman who's

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Speaker 2: picked up by just a drive, any old driver. You

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Speaker 2: probably that's the idea right when you're hearing the story.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's you picking up a hitchhiker. This person gets

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Speaker 2: in the car, rides with you for a while until

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Speaker 2: you reach the destination where they've asked you to go,

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Speaker 2: and you turn back as the driver and there's no

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Speaker 2: passenger anymore, and you're like, oh, that's weird. She was

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Speaker 2: in here. We haven't opened the doors. And then you

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Speaker 2: find out through one means or another that, oh, the

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Speaker 2: person you're describing has been dead for like twelve years.

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Speaker 1: They drop you. You pull into the diner and the

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Speaker 1: hitchhiker's gone, and they say, oh, that's right, it's May fourteenth.

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Speaker 1: It was since thirty five years ago. Yeah. There's a

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Speaker 1: great Tom Waits song that subverts this genre to or

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Speaker 1: plays with this, called Big Joe and Phantom three h nine.

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Speaker 1: Won't spoil it for you, but if you like this,

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Speaker 1: its story is a good one. There's also a Pee

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Speaker 1: Weez Playhouse.

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Speaker 2: Big Adventure Pee one of the one of Pee Wee's

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Speaker 2: does something like that. There's an entire episode from the

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Speaker 2: new series of Unsolved Mysteries that deals with this happening

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Speaker 2: in Japan. A specific version of the Vanishing Hitchhiker.

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Speaker 1: We should totally do urban legends. In Japan, there's some

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Speaker 1: there's some pretty pretty fascinating stuff there. And I love

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Speaker 1: the way you set the stage here, man, because we

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Speaker 1: know their variants of this as well. Right, there might

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Speaker 1: be a physical object left behind, you know, in older

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Speaker 1: stories it was two silver coins like you would put

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Speaker 1: over your eyes at a burial. Traditionally you get it's

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Speaker 1: a little on the nose, but then there might be

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Speaker 1: like a book, a scarf. Scarves are very popular, the

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Speaker 1: purse the protagonist goes back to try to figure out

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Speaker 1: who this mysterious hitchhiker is is only to find the

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Speaker 1: gravestone or you know, surviving relatives or familiar humans. And

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Speaker 1: we're quite fortunate in that the Vanishing Hitchhiker legend was

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Speaker 1: researched extensively by a folklore named Jan Brunvand in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, and it led to his book The Vanishing

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Speaker 1: Hitchhiker American Urban Legends and their Meanings. And this might

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Speaker 1: blow your mind, because I think it did, at least

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Speaker 1: for me when I learned this. The tale of the

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Speaker 1: Vanishing Hitchhiker is older than automobiles. There were few, and

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Speaker 1: I mean it makes more sense too, because there could

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Speaker 1: have been a real life event. If you're in a

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Speaker 1: horse drawn carriage, right, you pick someone up. Horses are loud,

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Speaker 1: roads are rough. Maybe they ducked out and you just

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Speaker 1: didn't know. And now you're thinking it's a ghost. They

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Speaker 1: just left behind all their stuff. Well they could have

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Speaker 1: just you know, they could have just rolled out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, why would they leave with the stuff in the

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Speaker 2: carriage though, come on to prove a point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So horse drawn carriages. That's where the ghostly

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Speaker 1: hitchhiker comes back. And the ghostly hitchhiker idea a stranger

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Speaker 1: ill met on the road is a very ancient story,

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Speaker 1: but this one has become one of the most popular

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Speaker 1: American ghost stories because it keeps showing up in oral

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Speaker 1: tradition and popular media. There are even police reports that

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Speaker 1: appear to be at a loss to explain how a

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Speaker 1: hitchhiker was there one moment gone the next. Also, while

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Speaker 1: we're at it, shout out to Jan Brunvand for being

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Speaker 1: a huge part of coining the term urban legend. And

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Speaker 1: he really he puts some gas in the tank of

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Speaker 1: academic studies of folklore. So credit where it's due.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you, sub.

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Speaker 1: Right, and so we've I think we've established too that

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Speaker 1: the vanishing hitchhiker overwhelmingly often is a woman or female

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Speaker 1: identifying person who has met with misfortune. So it's not

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Speaker 1: too surprising. I would argue that the hitchhiker and the

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Speaker 1: weeping woman have enough commonality to at some point converge.

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Speaker 2: Sure, well, why not throw in the hairy hand?

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Speaker 3: Why not.

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Speaker 1: Do the hairy hand? Do the hairy hair win while

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Speaker 1: we're bout we camp fire?

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Speaker 2: I think we did all episode on that, or at least, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The hairy hands, right, they grab the wheel, Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they turned the and it's right around the time cars

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Speaker 1: come out. Yeah, why not? I would love to hear

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Speaker 1: all of your favorite urban legends. Uh, that's why you

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Speaker 1: will hear versions of the hitchhiker story that talked about

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Speaker 1: picking up a lady by a bridge near the water.

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Speaker 1: You know, things like that, or she asked you to

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Speaker 1: drop her off near the water or something like that.

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Speaker 1: These things don't occur in a vacuum. But this is

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Speaker 1: a bit of a walk around the block to lead

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Speaker 1: us to the question where does Laona come from? You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Did it surprise you that the hitchhiker

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Speaker 1: legend is literally older than the car, because I'll be honest, sure.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it surprised surprised me quite a bit,

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Speaker 2: I think because we so closely associate it with driving

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Speaker 2: a vehicle, and many of us, most of us have

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Speaker 2: only ever driven an automobile and not a carriage, right,

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Speaker 2: So like, yeah, it makes sense that for us. It's like, oh, sure,

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Speaker 2: if there's a hitchhiker, there's a car involved, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's a hitchhiker on the back of your horse pal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: if you heard a spooky story about an astronaut, you

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Speaker 1: would assume there was a spaceship involved at some point.

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Speaker 2: Probably, Yeah, yeah, I like that very real.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Probably. But so with all this in mind, we

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Speaker 1: ask where this story, this legend Lairna comes from. Then

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Speaker 1: what we learn is the story is much much older

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Speaker 1: than anyone might have imagined.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break here a word from

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Speaker 2: our sponsor, and then dive in to the roots, the

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Speaker 2: ancient roots of this story.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. All right. First off, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna hear a lot of versions of this that say,

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Speaker 1: you know their cast of characters is a children who

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Speaker 1: are led to misfortune, right, whether by accident or by design,

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Speaker 1: an indigenous woman, a Spaniard dude, Yes.

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Speaker 2: But he goes back much older than that. And the

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Speaker 2: roots that exist here in the commonalities with ancient characters,

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Speaker 2: we're talking quite old characters are pretty dang compelling. Specifically

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Speaker 2: Aztec God's been that really fascinated me as we got

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Speaker 2: into this, figures that existed in as tech mythology. That

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Speaker 2: law yourona seems to mirror, or at least be reverberations of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Mesoamerica is deep. We have to remember this civilization

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Speaker 1: existed thousands of years before Europeans are traveling there. This

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Speaker 1: story is so old, in fact, that no one is

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Speaker 1: sure when the first version happened. No, no one really knows.

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Speaker 1: We can confirm written mentions, though, and that's even that

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Speaker 1: just accelerates our kaiser. So say aspect of this, because,

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Speaker 1: like you were saying, the earliest confirmed La Yourna's story

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Speaker 1: we know it dates back to a written format in

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Speaker 1: the fifteen hundreds. There are a couple of contenders. One

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Speaker 1: is in fifteen fifty in Mexico City, but it also

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Speaker 1: it has the air of a cover song. Dare I say,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it's referencing some other well known work

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Speaker 1: and the written version. This happens all the time with

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Speaker 1: these stories. The written version is going to most likely

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Speaker 1: be an adaptation or retelling of a narrative that already existed.

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Speaker 1: And so even in the modern day, folklorist and anthropologists

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Speaker 1: all across the Americas and across the world are trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out the pre Columbian roots of this tale.

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Speaker 1: And this gets to what you were talking about, Matt,

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Speaker 1: ancient gods things that are things that existed, and we're

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Speaker 1: established parts of belief systems way before the Spanish arrived.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah. When we're talking as tech gods, gods

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Speaker 2: of fertility or goddesses, I think of fertility and motherhood,

396
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Speaker 2: goddesses of the earth, really really interesting stuff. I guess

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Speaker 2: we can talk about. See what quadal is. That's one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest goddesses that appears to have similarities. When

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Speaker 2: you're describing law Youurona as a character. She was a

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Speaker 2: goddess of motherhood and she did some things that were

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Speaker 2: pretty similar to law Youurona.

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Speaker 1: Ys a protector of children and also as a I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna say something's kind of weird, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people might not be aware of this, But from these

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Speaker 1: sources that I read often in the Aztec belief system,

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Speaker 1: accidents did not exist, such that if, for instance, you

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Speaker 1: and your buddies are out hunting in the woods and

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Speaker 1: you accidentally injure one of your compatriots, the legal system

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Speaker 1: at the time treats you as though you did it

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Speaker 1: on purpose, because accidents do not exist. So this gets

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Speaker 1: really complicated. We're talking about accidents that Bethel children seahook

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Speaker 1: is like mean, it translates to like snake woman, which

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Speaker 1: is pretty common when you talk about fertility gods or deities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she has some really interesting stuff going on with her.

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Speaker 2: So I want to get into another piece of the

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Speaker 2: Laurona story that exists in some versions of the tale.

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Speaker 2: In some versions, she's killed her children. She doesn't know

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Speaker 2: they're dead, but her the bones of her children are

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Speaker 2: somehow like fused into her back right like, which is creepy,

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Speaker 2: really creepy, messed up. They are literally physically haunting her

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Speaker 2: while she is haunting this area, right but uh sewa quaddle.

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Speaker 2: Part of one tale about her is that she worked

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Speaker 2: with quets a Quotal, who was like, I, this is

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Speaker 2: not correct, But in my mind I think about quets

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Speaker 2: a Quotal as like the Zeus of Aztec world, like

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Speaker 2: the over god. Maybe I'm just completely wrong, that's how

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Speaker 2: I visualize it. But she worked with quets a Quotal

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Speaker 2: to create humanity as it exists in this realm, this epic,

429
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: this version of humanity that we all experience in those tales.

430
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: She did that by grinding up the bones of previous

431
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 2: versions of humanity and mixing it with quetze Quotal's blood.

432
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: And I thought that bone connection was really interesting. There

433
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: as like a tipping off point somehow, grinding the bones

434
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: to make the human very very strange. Oh and this

435
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: is the other thing. She apparently abandoned a child at

436
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: a crossroads.

437
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, according to the lore, and there's a and additionally,

438
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: the rule of the Si Tito, which is the deified

439
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: spirits of women who passed away during childbirth and ktsal

440
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: Cultol is very interesting to me, as the plume serpent

441
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: and you know, the patron god of the priesthood and learning.

442
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: So they're they're generative deities, but you know, all deities,

443
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: virtually all deities end up being sources of potential destruction

444
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: if they're sources of great generation, if they're great generative forces. Yeah.

445
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, But again, like see what quaddle is thought to

446
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: go back to that crossroads that I just mentioned, ben

447
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: and cry weep loudly sound famililed it.

448
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And see.

449
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: What Quaddal is not the only Aztec goddess that has

450
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: things in common with this stuff. There's another one, isn't

451
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: there a quat lique or something like that.

452
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: M Yeah, also known as our lady mother or tananzi uh.

453
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: This is it functions as both a significant maternal figure

454
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: and as a monster who devours filth and sin. So

455
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: this story Laurona is much much older. Like it also, okay,

456
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: fast forward the Spanish conquistadors come right, and a real

457
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: life tragedy plays a huge role in the modern version

458
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: of La Iroona. It's La Malinche, who is a Nahua

459
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: woman who was enslaved by the Spanish and worked directly

460
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: with the infamous Ernan Cortes. This is kind of a

461
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: Pocahontas vibe. So this is a real historical figure as

462
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: far as we can tell, born sometime around fifteen hundred

463
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: and dying in her late twenties, most likely sometime around

464
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: February of fifteen twenty nine, and just like the tragic

465
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: real life character of Pocahontas or not character the real

466
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: life person Pocahontas, la malinche is. She's an interpreter, She's

467
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: an advisor. She's kind of a fixer, as the Spanish

468
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: go around contacting and conquering, you know, and infecting Native

469
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: people's She was one of twenty people given to the

470
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: Spaniards in fifteen nineteen by natives of Tabasco, and Cortes

471
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: had a sexual relationship with her. She gave birth to

472
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: his son, who is considered, I guess symbolically one of

473
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: the first mestizos. His name is Martin. I believe mestizo

474
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: would be a term for people of mixed Indigenous American

475
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: and European ancestry. If you look at art over the centuries,

476
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: then you'll see that this woman's reputation in the public

477
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: sphere shifts back and forth over time. She is she's

478
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: an archetype. Now right, there are a lot of conflicting

479
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 1: views about her. There are paintings or works of art

480
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: depicting her that have been moved according to protests, and

481
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: she's often compared in literature to the like the real

482
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: life La Rona, you know, and maybe maybe with her

483
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: forced cooperation with the Spanish, maybe she abandoned Mesoamerica, you know,

484
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: maybe that's the abandoned child's here. It gets complex and symbolic,

485
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: you know, but we do have to mention her because

486
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: she's associated with it now. But if you dive deeper, right,

487
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: we have to remember she's almost certainly not the original

488
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: source of the legend. We can say based on those

489
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: that one text we mentioned, right, she's born in fifteen hundred,

490
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: fifteen fifty. This story is around, right, we know that

491
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: people already were telling this story, and this becomes a

492
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: kind of cognitive hook upon which to hang the tail.

493
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: But we also know that there was another text called

494
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: the Florentine Codex sometime in fifteen nineteen. This is around

495
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: and this does never neither of these, by the way,

496
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: ever use the phrase la iRORA. But they have some

497
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: very maybe a bit of wordplay here, but some very revelatory,

498
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: highly dramatic language about a great catastrophe or disaster. And

499
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: they in the Codex outlea's a series of omens that

500
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: the locals can use to tell when trouble is coming.

501
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: And I think we draw a special attention to the

502
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: sixth Omen.

503
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can just read it. Quote. The sixth Omen

504
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: was that many times a woman would be heard going

505
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: along weeping and shouting. She cried out loudly at night, saying, oh,

506
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 2: my children, we are about to go forever. Sometimes she said,

507
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: oh my children, where am I to take you? That's interesting?

508
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: Where am I to take you? I guess if you're

509
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 2: a soul seeking your you know you're passed over, but

510
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: you're still here as some kind of spirit, and you're

511
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: looking for your children, how do you take your children anywhere?

512
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: Would hum? There's a connection there. Oh, man, Ben, I

513
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: don't want to take us back to the Aztec times,

514
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: but I think it's worth it really quickly, back to

515
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: seawa Quaddle. At the time when the in the Aztec civilization,

516
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: women who were going through childbirth were considered warriors. Right,

517
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 2: if you're going through that battle of bringing life onto

518
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: the into this plane, you're considered a warrior. And if

519
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 2: you happened to die in childbirth while fighting that fight,

520
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: you as a mother were celebrated as a fallen warrior.

521
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 2: And there was I forget the term for it. There's

522
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 2: a specific term for women who died during childbirth, and

523
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: they were thought to haunt crossroads and look for children

524
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: to steal them because they never got to experience being

525
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: a mother. They like, perhaps they gave birth to a

526
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: child and it survived, but they never got to experience it,

527
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: so then they haunt those crossroads to find one, to

528
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 2: find a child like you probably sorry, just thought about that.

529
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: It's perfect. Yeah. And also the Florentine Codex describes the

530
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: the appearance of this figure of sijuhtl as dressed in white,

531
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: with her hair as if she had horns crossed above

532
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: her forehead. The original passage says that she was covered

533
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: in chalk, the wood peer at night, dressed in white,

534
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: walking and crying. I mean, how many coincidences does one need?

535
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 3: This?

536
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: Okay? So there are these ancient myths. They've transformed over time,

537
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: and we see this all the world around throughout human

538
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: civilization a lot. Not infrequently, these become the basis of

539
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: modern folk tales as well as modern religions. The character

540
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: of the weeping woman of La Irona has evolved through

541
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: multiple iterations over the over the centuries. You know, and

542
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: just to just for anyone who likes rabbit holes. You

543
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: can find other examples of this. You can look at

544
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: the Tale of King Arthur. Who is King Arthur is

545
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: not just a real dude. King Arthur is a mixtape

546
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: of several real dudes and they're they're like, they're their

547
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: greatest hits are all collected into this thing. And now

548
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: that thing is the author. And we're going to go

549
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: to Renaissance Festival so we can so Matt and I

550
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 1: can experience it firsthand, right.

551
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 2: My son, we go. My sons would go at evil

552
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: times for the first one. What yeah, do you like it? Yeah?

553
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: I loved this man his night one?

554
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: What up? What the odds are kind of against you? There?

555
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: A good job, bro, It's because it's because he was

556
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: the best cheerer.

557
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I.

558
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: Haven't been there in years. Man. I every so often

559
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: I get that wild Dave and Buster's hair, I'm like, oh,

560
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: let's go. What will it be like when I now

561
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 1: do have twenty five or thirty dollars to spend on

562
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: that mug shit?

563
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: Roll in the day Dave and Busters with one hundred

564
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: dollars bill and be like, I'm the king of this

565
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 2: place for fifteen.

566
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: Minutes because it adds up. Yeah, we're going to speed

567
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: run DMB after this. So and not to ruffle feathers, folks,

568
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: But another great example of how this oral communication works

569
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: and how it evolves into the written word. Just look

570
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: at the early works of Christianity, right in the very beginning,

571
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: when people are still kind of creating the authorities, authorities

572
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: to decide what is or isn't officially part of the Bible,

573
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: what stories or anecdotes do or do not belong in there,

574
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 1: You're going to see a lot of stuff that comes

575
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: from other belief systems. Maybe they pre exist and they

576
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: got translated into Christianity. Maybe they There are a lot

577
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: of no wait, but this is totally our thing moments

578
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: in organized religion. And there's another local example, and we'll

579
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: keep this brief because you've heard about it if you

580
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: listen to the show for a while. There are folk saints.

581
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: San Simone is one. San Simone or Machimone is a

582
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: folk saint who exist in various forms, aspects and their

583
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: durations in the Guatemalan highlands, and his true background was

584
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: obscured for a long time. If you do the digging

585
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: you see that before the Spaniards, before all this cross

586
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: cultural contact and conflict, the entity called San Simone was

587
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: actually a kind of mom, sort of a trickster mountain god,

588
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: responsible for floods and earthquakes and thunder and so on.

589
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: That's the interesting thing about these stories. They're palimpsested, and

590
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 1: if you peel back the layers, you're going to find,

591
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: just like paint on a wall, you're going to find

592
00:39:54,880 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: another couple of hues and shades beneath. Now we have

593
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: to ask why this story stuck around so long. People

594
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 1: are experiencing thousands, thousands terrible, terrible things all the time.

595
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: That's part of being a human being. So what is

596
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: the difference here? Why do we still have this story?

597
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: Why do people still believe they have seen Youroona or

598
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: some iteration in the modern day. Oddly enough, we don't

599
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: always get to say this, Matt, I think we have

600
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 1: some answers.

601
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: No, boy, do we, And we're going to tell you

602
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: all about it after another quick word from our sponsor.

603
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 2: All right, So why though, Oh you're asking.

604
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: Me, I'm asking you.

605
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: I don't know.

606
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: All right, cheers, I've drink a gatorade. You're drinking orange juice.

607
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, trying to get my stomach right. Trying to get

608
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: stomach right.

609
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: Perfect. So to answer this question, really we have to

610
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 1: look at some of the basic mechanics of storytelling as technology.

611
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: So not just we're not just saying, hey, here are

612
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: some campfire stories that people like. It's how you scare kids.

613
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: We're asking why, we're asking why this happens.

614
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Hey, come here, let me tell

615
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: you how to scare kids.

616
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: Oh boy? Uh yes, okay. So one thing we know

617
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 1: is that people in general love connecting. Right, All people

618
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: have what's sometimes called main character energy. That's not necessarily

619
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 1: a bad thing. It means that human beings will tend

620
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: to share stories that, in one way or another, remind

621
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 1: them of themselves in their environment. So life for most

622
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: of you, human history sucked. It was just it was

623
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: just not great. I'm not saying it's perfect now by

624
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: any means, but think about think about this. Pregnancy and

625
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: childbirth were some of the most dangerous parts of every

626
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: single person's life. Infant mortality rates are nuts, right, And

627
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,439
Speaker 1: if you're a woman and you're pregnant, you're a woman,

628
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: you're giving birth, then this is statistically, this is a

629
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: point in your life where you are more likely to

630
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: die than at almost any other point before your birth

631
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: when you survived that one. So we know that people

632
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 1: hearing these ancient stories would tragically be familiar with miscarriages,

633
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: it would be familiar with infant mortality. These things existed

634
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: at a much higher rate than they do in many

635
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: parts of the modern world. I do think we we

636
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: should point out that when you read statistics about life

637
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: expectancy in the ancient world, we all need to remember

638
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: those are incredibly misleading. People did make it to old

639
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: age back then, they certainly did. The problem was you

640
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: were far more likely to die early, especially when you

641
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: were a vulnerable little human being. Infant mortality, constant threat, malnutrition, disease,

642
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: infection plagues. As weird as it might sound in a

643
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: world where most people live in urban environments now, a

644
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: big enough animal just snatches your kid from the woods,

645
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: you know, jaguar in the forest. You know, it could

646
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: be a crocodile on the shore of the Nile. Just

647
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: depends on where you live, because the animals are out there,

648
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: and there were many many more wild animals than there

649
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: are today, and many many more than there will be

650
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: next year, but next week, parties next week.

651
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: It really makes you understand with all of that you

652
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: know going on in your life and everybody's life around

653
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: you at that time, if you lived then that the

654
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 2: heartbreak that's at the heart of this story of a

655
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: mother losing a child, or a mother passing before her

656
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: child before she gets to meet her child, that would

657
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: be pretty normalized. It would be it would be a

658
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 2: universal thing that everyone would have an understanding of.

659
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, Unfortunately, if you have not personally experienced it, you

660
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: probably knew someone who had, right and this is this

661
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: is a situation no one ever wants to be it.

662
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: So that's the first part the commonality. The second part

663
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: in stories as technology is this function. Stories like Lairna

664
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: stick around because they have a real world function. Not

665
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: for nothing does every single culture throughout human history have

666
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: some form of boogeyman that roams the wilderness and you know,

667
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: the dangerous places at night looking for kids who are

668
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: trying to be all Dennis the Menace and not thinking

669
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: about what their parents tell them to avoid. These stories

670
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: help adults impress safe behavior upon their children. It's it's

671
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: all about behavior modification. That's why these stories are around.

672
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: You know like, of course, people back then were the

673
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 1: same as people now, for good or for ill. You

674
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: might travel back centuries and talk to someone who you

675
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: might watch them tell their kid stay away because this

676
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 1: deity might come snatch you, right if you don't behave

677
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: and listen to me. And then the kid may say okay,

678
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: and they go to bed and you're talking to this person.

679
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: Let's assume it's not weird to them that you've traveled

680
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: through time and you say, hey, do you believe in

681
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: this story? And they might say no, man, of course not.

682
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: What about twelve? I don't believe in this. But if

683
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: I can scare my kids away from the dangers of drowning,

684
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: or I can ensure they don't walk into the woods

685
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: and get snatched by something, then this is valuable. So

686
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: I will propagate this story, which I don't think makes

687
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: some bad people at all.

688
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. Again, all you ever have

689
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: to do, if you're faced with that and feeling worried

690
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: about some story you teach your children, just say, sanna

691
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: elf and he's got a shelf. I mean, that's come on,

692
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: Come on, when.

693
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: We passed the line a long time ago, right, and

694
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: it's weird. How quickly the elf on the shelf came

695
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: around to normalize surveillance and erode the idea of privacy.

696
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: That guy, anyway, you can play along at home if

697
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: you like folks, regardless of where you live in the world, world,

698
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: or regardless of where you come from or where you're

699
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: going odds are. You can think of any number of

700
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: spooky stories that you were told and you were given

701
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: society as a kid, and you can identify those two

702
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: factors again commonality, common fears, desires, motivations, and then real

703
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: world functions warning against an activity, or like in your

704
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 1: excellent case of Santa Claus, there man prescribing a series

705
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: of incentives toward desirable behavior. Right, you better let this

706
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: guy break into your house, and you better be good

707
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,959
Speaker 1: the whole year before. The only crime you can aid

708
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: in the entire year is helping this guy break into

709
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: your house and make it nice for him. Give him

710
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: some stacks.

711
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you're bad and you do bad things,

712
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: you're not getting.

713
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 1: And that's another question. I can't be the only one

714
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: asking this. Was he Cole way more important? Why was

715
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: Cole the bad?

716
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

717
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: Like, that's if if you're bad. Santa's gonna pay our

718
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:15,959
Speaker 1: light bill. That's better. They're better threats. Look, nobody asked

719
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: us to help make this story.

720
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: If it was the sixteen hundred's and you were getting

721
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: firewood for Christmas, it would have been like straight up

722
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 2: cash money because it's yeah, okay, it was the currency.

723
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, And when the end times come, please please join

724
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: us at Matt and Ben's firewood emporium. Unlike First Republic Bank,

725
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 1: we will at a deposits of firewood. So unless there's

726
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: JP Morgan firewood, guys, get us all right anyhow, So

727
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: we're not saying that these parents and these cultures are

728
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: lying to their children for fun. As a matter of fact,

729
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: many of us listening today may wholeheartedly believe in the

730
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: La Yourna phenomenon, or may have believed that we experienced

731
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: it firsthand. The thing is, the belief is not the

732
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: primary issue. It's not why this story is still around.

733
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: The manipulation of behavior is the prime mover here. And

734
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: now we get to the big question. I'm not sure

735
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: how to address it. This is all speculation that Matt, Okay,

736
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: we know we cannot pinpoint the origin of this story.

737
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 1: We know that it endures because as commonality and real

738
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: world function. Is it possible that this story has, like,

739
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: at some point, a grain of truth, a basis in truth.

740
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm on the fence, but I think yes, honestly.

741
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: I think so. I think loss. I think this story

742
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 2: is about loss. This story is about not wanting to

743
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: lose a child. I think that's exactly what is And

744
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: you outline it there. We're talking about these things. We're

745
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,919
Speaker 2: talking about, Sanna, we're talking about all of that. As

746
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 2: a parent, once you successfully have a child and have

747
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 2: them in the world, the worst thing that could ever

748
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: happen is for that child to be gone right, specifically

749
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 2: through death, you know. So, as you said, these stories

750
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: go back to a time when it was so easy

751
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 2: to lose a child. You would tell them anything to

752
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 2: protect them from the things you know are out there.

753
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 2: And you and I think it's a lot easier to

754
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 2: make a child afraid of a ghost or a monster

755
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 2: or a demon than it is to make them afraid

756
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: of a leopard or a wild boar or water or water. Yeah,

757
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 2: oh yeah, because kids love water, but they don't understand

758
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 2: currents yet, they don't understand and a lot of the

759
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 2: dangers of what water is. So you tell them stories

760
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: about how dangerous that monster is that's in that water. Now,

761
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 2: I think I think that, I think that explains it,

762
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: at least for me.

763
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: I see you, man, I also think statistically, unfortunately, there

764
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: is probably a There is probably a basis in fact.

765
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine it like this, sometime before the dawn

766
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: of global communication. You, yes, you are walking around. There's

767
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: somewhere out there in the world, walking along the water evenings,

768
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 1: drawing on perhaps and in the distance, maybe across the lake,

769
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: the pond, what have you, the holler. You see a

770
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 1: woman and she's beside herself with grief. As a matter

771
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: of fact, you may have heard her before you saw her,

772
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: because she's very distant and you can't make out what

773
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: she's say, but she's clearly having a terrible, terrible day.

774
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: You can tell that she wailing. You can't get to her,

775
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: you're on your way, she's very far away. And then

776
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: maybe later you tell somebody else about it in your community.

777
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: You're wondering if they saw it, and maybe they did,

778
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: Maybe they explain it to you and you forget about it,

779
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: or maybe someone just remembers the story and then days, months, years,

780
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: decades later, they see something very similar ticks all the boxes.

781
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: Single individual, probably a woman, screaming there have been deaths

782
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: of children recently, and you start to wonder if this

783
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: is related to that story you heard earlier. This is

784
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: how these stories begin. It's the great game of telephone.

785
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: It continues, Embellishments emerge, revisions, adaptations to make them narrative

786
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: more directly reflect the current circumstances and fears of the

787
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: age of which it's told. You know what I mean, Like,

788
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: I honestly I wonder how long we have as a

789
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: society before Santa's bad gift becomes something else? You know

790
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like how many I don't know.

791
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: The hand grenade and when you pull the bow, it

792
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: pulls the hot pin.

793
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,240
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, sociopath clause.

794
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: All right, it's not good.

795
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like, because we know the prevalence, because

796
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: we know that these terrific accidents did occur, right and

797
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: continue to occur today. Like how many people drown in

798
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: our local spot, Lake Lanier every year? Right? It's least

799
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 1: a few? Yeah, yeah, I feel like someone in antiquity

800
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 1: saw this happen and this became part of the story

801
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 1: that is told today. And with that, here's where we

802
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: passed the torch to you, folks. We want to hear

803
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 1: your take on other similar tales. What are some paranormal

804
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: stories from your neck of the global woods? What do

805
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: they tell you and hopefully us about the societies in

806
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: which they We cannot wait to hear from you. We hope.

807
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: Also let us know if you enjoy paranormal episodes. We

808
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: love doing them.

809
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 2: Well, and tell us your law, your ownA encounters.

810
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:15,240
Speaker 1: Maybe you've had yes, perfect, please do, and please point

811
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: out anything you had that didn't seem to fit the

812
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: official narrative. We just want to hear your stories and

813
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: if we get enough, maybe we can make a Maybe

814
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 1: we can just make a show all all with retellings

815
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: of those stories, because we do have great fun with it.

816
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: We're grateful that you're here, and while we're asking you

817
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: for stuff, we'd love to hang out with you online Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,

818
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: all the hits, conspiracy stuff, conspiracy stuff show or some

819
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: derivative of that. Just start googling those things and you know,

820
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: tell us where we end up.

821
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 2: It is. It is hard to find us sometimes on

822
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram so make sure you plug in conspiracy

823
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 2: stuff show in those two.

824
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: But Matt, what if someone listened to our episodes on

825
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: social media and those it's not worth it to play

826
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 1: the dopamine casino.

827
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 2: Ah, well, you're on the right track. The next step

828
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: is to call one eight three three std WYTK. It's

829
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: a voicemail system. You've got three minutes to say whatever

830
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: you want. After that, it cuts you off. So you

831
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 2: got to stay in that three minutes, make up a

832
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: cool name for yourself and let us know if we

833
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 2: can use your voice and message on the air. If

834
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 2: you've got more to say they can fit in that

835
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: three minutes. Why not instead send us a good old

836
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

837
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

838
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

839
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio

840
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.