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Speaker 1: The Coin Bureau Podcast is a production of I Heart Radio. Overall,

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Speaker 1: cash usage has grown, but cash you shoulge for transactions

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Speaker 1: has in relative terms declined in almost all countries, sometimes drastically.

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Speaker 1: People still want cash, but often as a way of

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Speaker 1: keeping their money outside the banking sector. Welcome everyone to

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Speaker 1: the coin Bureau Podcast. My name is Guy and this

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Speaker 1: chap's name Mike Mooch. That was that was bang on there,

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Speaker 1: It was seamless. I want to talk today about the

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Speaker 1: idea of a cashless society. What it is, is it inevitable,

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Speaker 1: is it here? Is it coming? What's going on? And

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Speaker 1: what does it all mean? And we're going to tie

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Speaker 1: it into crypto as well, because there's definitely a crypto

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Speaker 1: the Crypto podcast. This is a crypto podcast, so we

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Speaker 1: are contractually obliged to mention crypto at some point. So

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Speaker 1: I want to also mention one one a book I'll

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Speaker 1: be referring to a lot today. This was partly the

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Speaker 1: inspiration for this episode, reading this book, but also I've

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Speaker 1: just seen so much about this recently, so it's been

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Speaker 1: kind of kicking around my head for a while. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to mention this book, Cloud Money, by a

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Speaker 1: chap called Brett Scott, who has a sort of financial

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Speaker 1: background but is now a kind of journalist and author.

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Speaker 1: Um it's called Cloud Money, Cash Cards, Crypto, and the

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Speaker 1: War for Our Wallets And it's an absolutely fascinating book,

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Speaker 1: very very interesting and I must say quite eye opening

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Speaker 1: as well. And it has very much changed my attitude

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Speaker 1: towards cashlessness in general. Oh yeah, I was the same,

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Speaker 1: like because I used to just lose cash all the time.

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Speaker 1: I you know, you sort of. It wasn't really, it

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Speaker 1: just seemed easier for me. Okay, cool, we'll just do

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Speaker 1: everything on card. That's fine. Yeah, And and it is.

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Speaker 1: But we were talking just before we hit record about

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Speaker 1: what's happening in China and how you know, the CCP

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Speaker 1: has got quite an authoritarian sort of attitude of things,

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Speaker 1: and if they don't like what you're doing, or what

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Speaker 1: you're saying, or who you're hanging around with, or where

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Speaker 1: you're spending your money, they can literally just turn it

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Speaker 1: all off. And they can turn your m your health

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Speaker 1: card from red from green to red. They can stop

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Speaker 1: you traveling on trains, they can stop you buying things

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Speaker 1: because they basically are in a cashleist society. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: very true, very true. The the the the kind of

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Speaker 1: Chinese social credit score system is kind of is getting

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Speaker 1: intrinsically linked with this idea of cashlessness, and we'll look

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Speaker 1: at that towards the end of the episode because that

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Speaker 1: ties in with another factor that I want to talk about,

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Speaker 1: in in in relation to castlessness, in the in relation

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Speaker 1: to where this idea of a cash less I could

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Speaker 1: very soon end up. But also it's just inconvenience. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever tried to get on a bus in London

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Speaker 1: and you've you've you've left your wallet or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and you all you've got is a tenor and you're

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Speaker 1: looked at like a like some sort of outcast trying

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Speaker 1: to pay with you know, legal tender. I just want

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Speaker 1: to go down the road, well not with that. And

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Speaker 1: it's actually it buses, buses and sort of public transport

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Speaker 1: or one of the things that that really came to

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Speaker 1: mind for me. Because yeah, and you know, as I said,

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Speaker 1: like my attitude towards cash has has changed very much

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Speaker 1: as a result of reading this book. But I must

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Speaker 1: admit that, you know, prior to this, I was kind

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Speaker 1: of really really sort of pro going cash less, and

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Speaker 1: purely from a convenience point of view. Um, because I remember,

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Speaker 1: you know, I remember when when we were kids, when

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Speaker 1: we were younger. You get on the bus and it

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Speaker 1: would be you'd have to give them, you'd have to

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Speaker 1: give them money, you'd have to give them cash. And

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Speaker 1: you know, there was no such thing as contactless. There

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Speaker 1: was no such thing as you prepaid prepaids or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. So you get on and there would always

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Speaker 1: be a queue, wouldn't there. You know, there'll always be

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Speaker 1: people getting on the bus, like someone I always had

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Speaker 1: the correct change because I was a good boy, but

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Speaker 1: there would always be someone who had like a ten

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Speaker 1: pound notes or sort of you know, twenty guineas or

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Speaker 1: something like that. You know, the bus driver would be

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Speaker 1: there sort of writing a check and you'd be sort

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Speaker 1: of you'd be sat there on the bus sort of

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Speaker 1: waiting for it to go, and you know, because you've

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Speaker 1: never left enough time like good, you know, and so

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Speaker 1: as thats and that seemed to change. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you felt this, but that seemed

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Speaker 1: to change pretty quickly. They said, well cash you stop now. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's pretty much kind of phased out a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And there was they were they weren't taking higher notes

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that. They weren't cool, We're going cashless

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Speaker 1: from now? Yeah, well there was, it seemed like. And

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Speaker 1: there was a pretty quick transition, wasn't it, Because as

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Speaker 1: I say, these oyster cards came out, so I should

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Speaker 1: say obviously actual cards, I suppose is what they have

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Speaker 1: in certain New York. Whatever this is going to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, this, this discussion is going to be very

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Speaker 1: much kind of informed by our experience here in the UK.

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Speaker 1: Although you know, from the research I've done, there are

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Speaker 1: some there's some really interesting stuff on this coming out

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Speaker 1: of other countries. But obviously you and I were British,

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Speaker 1: we grew up here. Um, so you know, our experience

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Speaker 1: has been very much shaped by the UK, you know

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Speaker 1: outlook on this. And it has to be said like

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Speaker 1: here in the UK we are one of the most

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Speaker 1: the societies that have embraced cashless the most. We're not

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Speaker 1: quite up there with some of the Nordic countries, but

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Speaker 1: we are kind of real, you know, trailblazers in the

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Speaker 1: sense of the whole idea of cashlessness. And yeah, so

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Speaker 1: going back to you know, going back to kind of transport, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it would be like then, you know, we had these

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Speaker 1: Oyster cards that you would go and top up. Wouldn't

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Speaker 1: you go and put twenty pounds on your Oyster card

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Speaker 1: and then you could just beap it and you know,

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Speaker 1: you could see how much you had left, and then

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Speaker 1: of course you get to the point where you didn't

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Speaker 1: have enough. And now obviously everyone just gets on and

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Speaker 1: pretty much. I mean I still occasionally see people using

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Speaker 1: an Oyster card and think that's nothing to do because

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Speaker 1: everyone just gets their debit card. It's from your phone now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or their phone yeah, or they watch or and I

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Speaker 1: mean I look at that and I actually got the

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Speaker 1: bus in in today and I was looking at it

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Speaker 1: and I just thought, yeah, I mean that is surely

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Speaker 1: that's a great argument for for cash less lists in general,

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Speaker 1: because that has sped things up. Yeah. I don't think

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Speaker 1: anyone is like against the technological advances that having a

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Speaker 1: cash list or not dealing with cash in certain transactions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, Like it's it's it's obviously a

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Speaker 1: massive convenience and is more time efficient with a lot

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Speaker 1: of things, and you lose less money. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can't lose money in a bank account when you're a

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Speaker 1: night out, you're spending it. I remember you had I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you still do, but you had a

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Speaker 1: habit of because I remember you pointing this out to me.

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Speaker 1: You would sort of go and to put something in

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Speaker 1: your back pocket, whether it was your wallet or your

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Speaker 1: phone or cash, and you you know, after you've had

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Speaker 1: had a few drinks, you'd always miss it. So you

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Speaker 1: ended up and I met. I do actually remember seeing

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Speaker 1: you sort of drop stuff just behind you, sort of

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Speaker 1: multimile drink days were expensive, yeah, and I mean I

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Speaker 1: gave it back sometimes, so yeah, it's there's definitely a

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Speaker 1: convenience aspect to it. And as I said that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the decline of cash is something I think I think

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Speaker 1: anyone listening to this has probably noticed it, unless you're

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Speaker 1: listening in a country, you know, one of those countries

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Speaker 1: that that hasn't adopted kind of cash lessness quite as quickly.

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Speaker 1: But certainly if you're listening from the UK, from you know,

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Speaker 1: from US, Canada and other parts of Europe, but not

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Speaker 1: all parts of Europe, I have to say, but you

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Speaker 1: know a lot of parts of Europe, then you'll have

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Speaker 1: noticed the kind of precipitous decline in the use of cash.

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Speaker 1: I think COVID as well really did catalyzed that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: COVID money is dirty, and it probably is, but like

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Speaker 1: no more than well, yeah, I found some I found

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Speaker 1: some quite interesting stuff on that, if it were not

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Speaker 1: related to COVID. Well, the World Health Organization found that

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Speaker 1: that that that you know, that that idea that was

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Speaker 1: being sort of put about was not necessarily true. And

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Speaker 1: in actual fact, I think they found that the pin

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Speaker 1: pads of hard machines actually had were a lot dirtier

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Speaker 1: than your average banknote. But we'll we'll get to that

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Speaker 1: in a bit, because obviously COVID is a big kind

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Speaker 1: of is a big sort of moment in the evolution

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Speaker 1: of cash less sense if you like. Um, but a

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Speaker 1: few sort of statistics, so the Bank of England website

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Speaker 1: was quite informative. So in seen, this is a quote

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Speaker 1: debit cards overtook cash as the most frequently used payment

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Speaker 1: method in the UK seen, which is obviously, given everything

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Speaker 1: that's happened since then, it feels like a lifetime ago.

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Speaker 1: But I mean that's actually fairly recent. That's five years ago.

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Speaker 1: So and this is something this is something that I

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Speaker 1: found really interesting. I mean, I would have thought it

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Speaker 1: would be before then. Yeah, me too, Me too. I

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Speaker 1: was actually quite surprised that it was that Recentum. And

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Speaker 1: this is something that I found in the research. Like

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Speaker 1: when I started researching this, I had I was pretty

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Speaker 1: sure that everything I found would point to, you know,

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Speaker 1: cash You would kind of confirm my idea that cash

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Speaker 1: has been dying out sort of precipitously for years and

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Speaker 1: is on the brink of going extinct. And it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's a bit more nuanced than that. There are certain aspects,

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Speaker 1: certain sectors of the economy, certain professions I guess you,

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Speaker 1: and certain groups of people as well that are that

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Speaker 1: very much feel the effects of encroaching cashlessness, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: homeless people, people, you know, it tends to really affect

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Speaker 1: the poorest, Yeah, the more vulnerable in society. And again

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Speaker 1: this is something that will will get to because I

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Speaker 1: want to look at demographics in in a little bit

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Speaker 1: in relation to it. Um. But yeah, I mean a

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Speaker 1: lot of the stats that I found researching this kind

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Speaker 1: of bear out what bear bear out my preconception before

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Speaker 1: I started. So, cash US here in the UK has

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Speaker 1: has really plummeted. Obviously, a t M s are disappearing.

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Speaker 1: So in twenty fifteen there was seventy five eight a

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Speaker 1: t m s in the UK, there were fifty four thousand,

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Speaker 1: five seventy four, which is an approximately kind of decline.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty big. And I think again, I think this

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Speaker 1: is something that you that you really notice, you know,

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Speaker 1: you notice that cash machines are disappearing, are becoming harder

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Speaker 1: and harder to find. Bank branches as well, are closing down.

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Speaker 1: That between twenty twenty there was a twenty eight decline

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Speaker 1: in the number of bank branches here in the UK.

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Speaker 1: And and and this is something that Brett Scott a

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Speaker 1: statistic that Brett Scott's sites in his book. Um and

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Speaker 1: as I said, yeah, the UK is kind of adopting cashlessness,

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Speaker 1: is going cashless very very fast. Now, I thought as

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Speaker 1: part of you know, obviously when I was searching this,

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time on Google, spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time on the Internet. But what I thought I'd

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Speaker 1: do was actually put out a Twitter poll on you know,

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Speaker 1: on on coin bureaus Twitter, to to just ask ask

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Speaker 1: my followers what they were, you know, what their experience

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Speaker 1: with cash lessness was. And it was really really interesting. Again,

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Speaker 1: I kind of assumed again, obviously this is kind of um,

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Speaker 1: this is perhaps a skewed statistic, perhaps because this is

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Speaker 1: very much a crypto friendly audience, so you would imagine

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Speaker 1: that they are, you know, not quite so inclined towards cash.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, I don't know actually, because I suppose

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like the decentralized attraction of of crypto

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Speaker 1: is kind of similar to the people who are, um,

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Speaker 1: you know who cash is king? Yeah, yeah, well yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and I think it well, the statistics actually bear

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Speaker 1: you out because hang on, let me find it here.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I put it out. It was a it

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Speaker 1: was a day long pole, and I said, Um, the

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Speaker 1: question I asked was when was the last time you

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Speaker 1: used physical cash? And just shy of eleven and a

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Speaker 1: half thousand people replied, I gave I gave three options,

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Speaker 1: did you use cash in the last week, in the

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Speaker 1: last month, or you can't even remember the last time,

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Speaker 1: And the by a wide margin, six of replies said

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Speaker 1: that they had used cash in the last week. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was. I was really surprised by that. Actually, um,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean I can't even remember. Came in

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Speaker 1: came in second twenty three point three percent and then

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Speaker 1: in the last month percent, so it shows. It showed

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Speaker 1: to me that a lot more people out there were

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Speaker 1: using cash a lot more regularly than I thought. Yes, um,

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Speaker 1: I did get some I got some really really interesting replies.

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Speaker 1: I want to this one in particular, this was kind

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Speaker 1: of more what I was expecting. So this was from

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Speaker 1: a user, um quote. I live in Sweden, where it's

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Speaker 1: almost impossible to use cash in stores these days, except

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Speaker 1: from grocery stores and maybe some pharmacists. It's not even

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Speaker 1: used person to person because we have something called Swish

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Speaker 1: which is used by seventy percent of the Swedish population.

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Speaker 1: And this was, as I say, this was much more

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Speaker 1: along the lines of the kind of response I was

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Speaker 1: expecting because I've looked at Sweden quite a lot. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and sweden cash use has is so so uh you know, minimal, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very minimal. Minimal. Yes, um there, and it's interesting, it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's very much the same in the other sort

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Speaker 1: of top countries for casciousness and Norway and Finland. I

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Speaker 1: think the Netherlands is up there as well. And in

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Speaker 1: the UK, you know, we are we are between us

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Speaker 1: some of the most cashless countries around and I guess,

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Speaker 1: I guess for Scandinavia, you know, they're very I was

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Speaker 1: trying to think why that is, and that means a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of sort of possible theories. But

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Speaker 1: I think part of it, I think stems from the

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Speaker 1: fact that there's they're very politically stable, and Scandinavians tend

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Speaker 1: to have a lot of trust in their governments, so

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Speaker 1: they don't have the same qualms that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have about you know, about using a card, about

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Speaker 1: going digital, about going cash less, because they tend to

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Speaker 1: have I think, a sort of more trusting view of

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Speaker 1: authority there. So yeah, I was expecting a lot more,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot more sort of replies like that.

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Speaker 1: So what this, what this kind of tells me is

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Speaker 1: that although cash lessness is is certainly on the rise,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not quite that black and white. It's not

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Speaker 1: dying out perhaps as fast or as you know, widespread,

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Speaker 1: as as we may think. And also had some I

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Speaker 1: so discussed it over the weekends as I was putting

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Speaker 1: notes together. I went out on Saturday and saw some

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Speaker 1: friends and I texted a few family members as well,

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Speaker 1: and I had some quite interesting replies. This tended to

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Speaker 1: confirm my suspicions. Most of the people I spoke to,

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Speaker 1: most of my friends who I spoke to were like

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Speaker 1: me and said, we're like, yeah, I maybe in the

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Speaker 1: last month most of them were Actually I can't really remember.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what is what changes the frequency of

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Speaker 1: cash use. Yeah, so like you still do use it occasionally, okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: I'm I don't even I have used it recently. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember what form do you do you carry cash?

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Speaker 1: Do you you know what? Sometimes I do because like

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Speaker 1: at the comedy club here, sometimes people like they at

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Speaker 1: the end of the show, they don't ate in cash,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we store all that with market and

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Speaker 1: then I just keep that on me and that's I've

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Speaker 1: always got a bit of cash on me. I always

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Speaker 1: like to have a tenner or a twenty quid in

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Speaker 1: back on my phone as well, okay, just for just

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Speaker 1: always there. But like, you know, it's it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't have one at the moment, I know, because

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Speaker 1: I got pissed and then I spent a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I know, so it's um, it's it's it's.

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Speaker 1: It's it's something you know, you go to the shop

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Speaker 1: and certain shops will be like, okay cool, three pound

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Speaker 1: minimum spend or five pouminum spend or as a charge

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Speaker 1: that got taken out, so okay, cool, I can pay

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Speaker 1: for you know, a cand of coke or a bottle

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Speaker 1: of water. It's so on a card now, whereas before

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Speaker 1: you kind of would be like, okay, cool, that's going

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Speaker 1: to be an extra pound charge or whatever. I'll just

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Speaker 1: have a bit of cash on me. Um. So I

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Speaker 1: think you know that reducing the sort of minimum spends

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Speaker 1: on what you can use on a card made it

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Speaker 1: a lot more easy. Um. And I think that was

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Speaker 1: one of the things that sort of took it out

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Speaker 1: trying to think who who need tipping people? That's what

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Speaker 1: I use it foremost. Yeah, I liked if I've got

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Speaker 1: a delivery or uber it its or Postmates whatever, I

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Speaker 1: like to tip in cash because I don't. I just

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Speaker 1: want to make sure that these guys get there, get

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Speaker 1: the amount. Yeah, that's that. That's That's often the case

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Speaker 1: in restaurants as well, isn't it. Because Yeah, I've heard

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Speaker 1: lots of stories that you know, the staff tips sort

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Speaker 1: of all go to the management. Management takes their cuts.

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Speaker 1: So I quite often when I eat out. I quite

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Speaker 1: often asked, like, you know, does the tip go to

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Speaker 1: you or does it all get pulled? It gets pulled

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Speaker 1: then sometimes you know, if I have cash, then I'll

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Speaker 1: tip them in cash, or as is normally the case,

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Speaker 1: I don't have any cash on me, and I try

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Speaker 1: to get whoever I'm eating with leave whatever cash they

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Speaker 1: But yeah, a lot of the people I spoke to

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Speaker 1: there was a kind of similar things from from from

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Speaker 1: talking to it to other people, and it was interesting talking.

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Speaker 1: So I talked to my parents about it and my

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Speaker 1: future parents in law, and they they had you know,

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Speaker 1: they had kind of, I guess, the sort of perspective

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Speaker 1: that you'd expect. They used it slightly more than than

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Speaker 1: people our age, than people like you and me would um,

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Speaker 1: but you know, they were generally sort of more comfortable

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Speaker 1: using that using their cards, but they liked that. They

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Speaker 1: they they all sort of very much like to have

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Speaker 1: to keep cash on them, and you know, for certain things,

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Speaker 1: a lot of things like sort of independent shops or

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Speaker 1: market stores came up a little you know, came up

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Speaker 1: a few times. One person I spoke to who sort

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Speaker 1: of lives out in the country said, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's great because near where I live, you have people

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Speaker 1: selling eggs out the front of their farm, and you

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Speaker 1: know they have an honesty box, and obviously you know

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Speaker 1: you don't you don't beep it there. Although you know

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Speaker 1: from from reading up, from reading up on the on

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Speaker 1: the spread of cashlessness, that wouldn't surprise me if that

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Speaker 1: becomes more and more widespread. Well we'll get to that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I had some really interesting responses from people.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it seemed to be that on the whole

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Speaker 1: cash they very rarely used cash. One chapter I spoke

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Speaker 1: to actually, I got a very interesting response from my

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Speaker 1: friend Ollie, who you know, he's a bit younger than me.

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Speaker 1: He's I describe him as a fairly sort of modern guy.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's not not some sort of ludd eight

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. But he he said, oh, I

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Speaker 1: get about two hundred pounds in cash out at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of every month. And I just sort of like

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Speaker 1: because I noticed it. Funnily enough, I noticed them he was.

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Speaker 1: I noticed him get his wallet out to give someone

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Speaker 1: some money to they were going to the to the shop,

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Speaker 1: and I noticed that he had quite a large word

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Speaker 1: of cash, I mean not huge, but a few notes

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Speaker 1: and so I asked him about He said, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get I get sort of two hundred pounds out

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of the month, and yeah, it's useful

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Speaker 1: for sort of cafes and things like that. What I

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Speaker 1: found quite interesting, though, was none of the people I

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Speaker 1: spoke to he took this cash and used it for

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Speaker 1: the sake of using it, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: It was always like, you know, I'll have this cash

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Speaker 1: in case I need it, But no one was sort

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Speaker 1: of like, oh no, I like, I prefer to pay

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Speaker 1: in cash. I like to put or or even like

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Speaker 1: this person that I pay with, you know they only

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Speaker 1: take cash. Oh no, If you're going they sort of

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Speaker 1: building work, I think you'll find they prefer cash. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well again, I was I was talking to I was

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Speaker 1: talking to another friend who works as a gardener, and

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Speaker 1: he says that, I mean, he has to be paid,

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Speaker 1: and I mean he's very above board, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: he's a he's a very honest chat um. He says that,

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Speaker 1: you know, people are offering to pay him in cash

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Speaker 1: all the time. It's one of these things that people

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Speaker 1: kind of still expect. Would you like cash? And he's like, actually, no,

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Speaker 1: I really would have an account. Yeahs I do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And actually for him it's really inconvenient because he was

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Speaker 1: going to carry cash around. You had to carry yeah,

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Speaker 1: lots of cash, which he says, look, you know, if

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Speaker 1: I have cash on me, I just spend it down

389
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Speaker 1: the pub, you know. So he doesn't spend it down

390
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Speaker 1: the pub and elsewhere. But yeah, he Um, but he

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Speaker 1: says that people kind of still expect it. But it's

392
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Speaker 1: it's actually quite inconvenient for him, but people still have

393
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Speaker 1: this sort of image that's because he is above the board. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the thing. If if he if he

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Speaker 1: wasn't and you know, if he was, yeah, if he

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Speaker 1: was looking to I mean he's he's kind of a

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Speaker 1: one man band, so he doesn't have you know, he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have people working for him who want to be

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Speaker 1: paid in cash or anything like that. So I think

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Speaker 1: there is still you know, there are still people and

401
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Speaker 1: you know a lot of people, a lot of on

402
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: a sort of demographic level, there are certain there are

403
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Speaker 1: certain groups of people who who actually apparently prefer to

404
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Speaker 1: have cash, you know, just prefer to do things in cash.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that a little later on. Um. So, yeah,

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00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: So that was that was the That was the kind

407
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 1: of feedback I got from from talking to a few people.

408
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 1: I know that, you know, it's it's not very widespread,

409
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Speaker 1: but people do still in general like to keep a

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Speaker 1: bit on them, certainly here in the UK. Let's take

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Speaker 1: a break there. We'll be back with you in just

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Speaker 1: a moment. You know, Internet coverage is increasing and the

413
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 1: tech that is available to us is increasing because it's

414
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: it's no longer is it. It's no longer a case

415
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: of just beeping your card, you know, using your debit

416
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Speaker 1: card or credit card or anything like that. There are

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00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: so many other ways that you can do it. I mean,

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00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: you can you can have your debit card linked up

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Speaker 1: to your phone or watch. But then there are also

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00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 1: all these payment apps and things like that, aren't there there?

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00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in the US they have Venmo,

422
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 1: Venmo cash app, PayPal, yeah yeah, and then in Sweden

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Speaker 1: they have this very popular think called well Swish. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's also a Klanner, which is one of the sort

425
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: of new up and coming ones. So Klanner is here,

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Speaker 1: but I thought I didn't know. It's a it's a

427
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: kind of a buy now, pay later thing. Yeah. Yeah,

428
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: it seems to be as a kind of new innovation.

429
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of getting towards the credit of

430
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 1: the end of the end of the spectrum, isn't it. Um, Yeah, my,

431
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: my my point being that it's it's not just a

432
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: case of using a credit or debit card anymore. There

433
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: there are other things which are very much obviously linked

434
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 1: to sort of interconnectivity and the rise of fast internet

435
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: and internet coverage and all that. Um So let's quickly

436
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: talk about COVID because obviously that was a big game

437
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: changer in in the kind of story in the advance

438
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: of cashlessness, because cash use really fell off a cliff

439
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: quite for for obvious reasons. Because we were all stuck

440
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: in our homes. It was much easier for you know,

441
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: and in some cases, I guess impossible for a lot

442
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: of people to go out and spend cash, you know,

443
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: especially if you're shopping online. So it it really did,

444
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: it really did decline. But this is something referring to

445
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,479
Speaker 1: cloud money this this book. Again. Um, it should be

446
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: noted though that a t M withdrawals actually end up.

447
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: So although cash use declined markedly during the pandemic, during lockdowns,

448
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: more and more people were withdrawing cash to basically keep it,

449
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: you know, keep it under the mattress, so to speak.

450
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: So there was this kind of flip that, you know,

451
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,239
Speaker 1: this idea of hoarding cash outside the banking system in

452
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: case it collapsed, because obviously it was a it was

453
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: a weird time, wasn't it. It felt like it felt

454
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 1: at times like we were kind of teetering on the precipice.

455
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 1: And you know, it was such a it was such

456
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: an unprecedent, unprecedented time that it felt like, you know,

457
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: the banking system could collapse. I mean, anything could happen.

458
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: It was. It was weird. So a lot so although

459
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: you know, although less people a fewer people were using cash,

460
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: more people were getting it out to just hold it,

461
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: you know, to have it, have it on hand. Um,

462
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: And obviously, you know, the banking banking system collapse is

463
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 1: not is not fanciful idea. I mean, we came pretty

464
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: close in two thousand and eight. So that was really interesting.

465
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: And the yeah, I want to quote this book directly here,

466
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 1: So this is this is Brett Scott in Cloud Money. Quote.

467
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: Overall cash usage has grown, but cash you shoulge for

468
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: transactions has in relative terms declined in almost all countries

469
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: sometimes drastically. People still want cash, but often as a

470
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: way of keeping their money outside the banking sector. That

471
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: was that was really interesting to me. I had no

472
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: idea that that was the case when I when I

473
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: started putting this episode together. So, yeah, that the idea

474
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: of yeah, we're we're all very much aware that we're

475
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: using cash less, but that doesn't mean cash is dying

476
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: quite as quickly as we thought. It's it's become sort

477
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: of something that we want to hold onto more. We

478
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: just want, you know, more and more people want to

479
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: have it. Um. Now, obviously the pandemic meant that more

480
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: people shopped online, so you had more people kind of

481
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: embracing this idea of of going cash less, you know

482
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: of out of necessity in a lot of cases. Um.

483
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: And then you also had you touched on this earlier,

484
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: this idea that cash use was was kind of made

485
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: out to be unhygiene I and a way of spreading COVID,

486
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: And this was you know, this was something that that

487
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, this was a problem that going cash less

488
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: could could help alleviate. And though I mentioned this action,

489
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: this is something again Brett Scott sites Um the World

490
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: Health Organization found evidence to the contrary of this um

491
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: and that, as I said, actually, you know, COVID was

492
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: much more. There was a good chance of COVID being

493
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: spread from the pin pads and things like yeah, but

494
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: what about tap, well yeah tap and go yeah going.

495
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: But also the world to organization flip flocked on a

496
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: number of different things several different times. That's true. That's true.

497
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: So I mean they don't recognize Taiwan. Apparently there is

498
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: and there is an unmistakable trend here in the UK

499
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: and elsewhere of shops and other businesses going cash less.

500
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: It certainly seems to be picking up, you know, and

501
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 1: there are there are loads of places now that don't

502
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 1: accept cash and and and make a virtue of that

503
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: and display that quite quite happily, and that's not legal. Well,

504
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this because this is kind of

505
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: the stuff that you like when you get a Scottish note.

506
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that. I'm glad you brought that out.

507
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: And this is something that this is something obviously unique

508
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: to the UK, so I should put it, I should

509
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: put a bit of context in for that. So yeah,

510
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: here in the UK we have obviously, you know, we

511
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: have all our own our own bank notes, but Scottish banks,

512
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: the Scottish, Northern Irish, Welsh have different ones as well.

513
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't think Northern Irish definitely do.

514
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen

515
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: a Northern Irish bank. Now, it isn't that weird, but

516
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: I spent quite a lot of time in Scotland when

517
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I mean I go there, you know,

518
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: every now and again, and so yet banks in Scotland

519
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: are actually allowed to issue their own bank notes and

520
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: so and they look completely they look similar, but they

521
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: different people on it. Yeah. Yeah, that essentially for Americans

522
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, Texas issuing its own dollar. Yeah,

523
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the Lone Star. Yeah. Um. Yeah.

524
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: So you get this thing in the UK of sometimes

525
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: very I mean, it hasn't happened to me, for mind you,

526
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: I hardly was cash anymore, but you know, every so

527
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: often you'd get you'd find that you'd you know, if

528
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: you withdraw withdrew from an a t M or or

529
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: got changed from shop or whatever, sometimes you'd find a

530
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: Scottish note in there. And this could cause all sorts

531
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: of problems because people would be like, what the hell

532
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: is this? And you have to go all this is

533
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: it confused the hell out of tourists. Yeah. I remember

534
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: working in a bar when I was younger, and I

535
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: think I think it was American. Guy came in and

536
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: was handing over cash and you just stopped and it

537
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: was like, the hell's there? I had to explain to

538
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: him he thought he'd been pastor that is mine. I'm sorry, Yeah, no,

539
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: I have to take Yeah, I'm legally required to take

540
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: custier there. So yeah, you had this, You had this

541
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: odd thing of these kind of rogue Scottish notes turning

542
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: up every now and again, which were which were legal

543
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: tender and there would there would often be some quite

544
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: heated discussions about this because shops were legally obliged to

545
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: accept them, but goodness they were. They were unwilling something,

546
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, and there's nothing wrong with you go to

547
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: the bank and they'd take them normally, but yeah, it's

548
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: just it's sometimes if someone gets one in chains, like

549
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: I don't want this. Yeah, they were completely fungible, but yeah,

550
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: it was people were you can you can tell life,

551
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: I've done my research. Yeah, so there would be these,

552
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: there would be these quite amusing. But so if if

553
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: someone is selling something and you're paying in legal tender,

554
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: is that it's kind of like when you see someone

555
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: come and pay for their parking fine with one with like,

556
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, one penny coins or you know what I mean,

557
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of it's legal tender. Yeah, you got

558
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: to take it? Or do they say cool, you can't,

559
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: you can't take them? I think they. I think they

560
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: a I think there are rules in place now to

561
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: stop that sort of civil disobedience from going on. But yeah,

562
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: it's it's a tricky one. I was I was looking

563
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: because I mean, it seems to be that, you know,

564
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: and I don't know if this is because of COVID

565
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: or it was just a trend that was accelerating anyway,

566
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: but it seems to be that certainly here in the

567
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: UK you can go cash less and it's perfectly legal.

568
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: And I think that is I think that is kind

569
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: of problematic because it is this legal tender argument, isn't it.

570
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: It's like I have these I have these bits of paper,

571
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: which we've discussed this before, haven't we. But you know,

572
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: I have these bits of paper. I've got one here.

573
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: This is a promise, This is a promise from the government.

574
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: We we've got to capture that a SMR audience, haven't

575
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: we be? Yeah. I mean, in fact, I um, I

576
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: got these. I got twenty pounds out before I came

577
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: here because I was kind of been inspired by this

578
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: book in a way to try and use cash a

579
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: little bit more. Yes, so that there is this accelerating

580
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: trend and it's really really noticeable, and I think it's

581
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: I think we need to kind of push back against

582
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: that a bit, because, as we'll see in a moment um,

583
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: this is this is this is kind of shutting certain

584
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: people out and that can't be right now. Before we

585
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to take a break in a minute. We've

586
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: talked about We talked a lot so far, but I

587
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: just want to mention a couple of other things I

588
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: remember in my own sort of cash less less journey.

589
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: I remember going to a festival a few years ago.

590
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: Now it musty it was pre COVID, so maybe and

591
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: this festival was cash less. Did they put all the

592
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: money on a on a wrist? Bad? Yeah, it's a

593
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: little way to top, to skim money off the top. Absolutely.

594
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: It was really interesting because yeah, I was actually helping

595
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: out a friend who had a stall there. They were selling,

596
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: they were selling merchandise, and my friend who had done

597
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: the festival for he's like, yeah, it's cash less, he said.

598
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: Apparently they've had they'd been they'd had stacks of cash

599
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: at a previous one, either the year before or previous

600
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: and somewhere someone had managed to just basically wander off

601
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: with a bag of cash and that was the reason

602
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: apparently that they've gone cash less. Well, there's there's several

603
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: reasons to it. One, you've got that money, so like

604
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: you top up your card or your wallet before you

605
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: go to the festival, which is another little cash injection sometimes,

606
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: which these places main needs is to get over the

607
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: line to um. It's it's you know that that no

608
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: one is pilfering from the tills, which can happen when

609
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: you know you've got ten thousands sort of people trying

610
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: to get a drink and there's a thousand people serving

611
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: and you don't really know them. It's not like a

612
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: bar where you've got a bit of trust with them.

613
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: And also people are supposed to get the money back,

614
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: but not everyone gets there p back. You know they've

615
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: got that, you know, times tendred and twenty thousand, and

616
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: it all adds up. Also data, it's really oughtn't to

617
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: get information on what people are buying when they're buying them,

618
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: so that you can one but put more of that

619
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: stock on whatever. You know, Okay, cool people really drinking

620
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: white wine spritches this week, or or or finding out

621
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: when they are buying the alcohol or or their drinks

622
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: so that you can staff appropriately. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah,

623
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: I hadn't. I hadn't considered it from a I mean,

624
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: I had considered from a data point of view, but

625
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,479
Speaker 1: I hadn't sort of from an organizational point of view.

626
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: That's really interesting, and I mean I remember it was.

627
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: It was fascinating watching people because the way it worked

628
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 1: was and you're, you know, you're more familiar this than

629
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: I than I am. But you'd go in and then

630
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: you'd have to straight away you get your wristband and

631
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: then you have to straightaway go top up. Yeah, so

632
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: you could either you could either give them cash there

633
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: or most people are doing it with a bank card

634
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: or whatever, and you'd have to top up on your wristband.

635
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: I think there was a suggested amount of one quid

636
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: or something like that. So then you'd have this wristband

637
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: and you'd walk around and you had to pay for

638
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: everything on site once you were passed, once you're on site,

639
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: the festival site itself, you couldn't. You weren't allowed. And

640
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: my friends said, if they see you as a retailer

641
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: accepting cash, there's a fine, and if you do, you

642
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: pay for that fine with your card with your wristband.

643
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: So better make sure you've got enough on your wristband

644
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: to pay the fine. He said, Yeah, you can get fined,

645
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: and if you're repeat offender, they'll just chuck you out.

646
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: And the other thing is with a lot of these

647
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: festivals is that the traders basically get the spot for

648
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: minimal amount and then they give a percentage of their

649
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: earnings to the festival organizers as a as a pitch fee. Yeah,

650
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: so they'll be taking all the sales of that food thing,

651
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: so if it's in cash. We had a rough one. Yeah,

652
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. That's sock is gone. Yeah,

653
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: and there was a queue out the door the entire

654
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: time and one Yeah. So I mean there's there's advantages

655
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: of it and there's disadvantages of it. I suppose that's

656
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: quite a nice little model on government and a country

657
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: essentially in the cash list society for as the festival

658
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: organizers are the government, and you know this the small

659
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: businesses and and are the traders, and the punters are

660
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: the citizens and how that how that money goes called

661
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: I can see what you're spending on when you're spending it,

662
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: I can see that data is very useful, and it was, yeah,

663
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: it's it's like a society and microcosm. You're absolutely right,

664
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: and it was. It was so interesting because like some

665
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: people just could not get their heads around it. Um.

666
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: And you know, this was a festival, so it wasn't

667
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: like there were it wasn't that they were pensioners wandering around.

668
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: Some people just could just on trying to give cash

669
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: and we were like, look, I can't. You gotta pay

670
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: with your wristband. He was like, oh, I don't know

671
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: how that works. It's like you've got to go over that.

672
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: You just can't. And so they want to. But the

673
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: kids were The kids were loving it because they've been

674
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 1: you know, if they were Kenny, they've got because everyone

675
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: got a wristband that's that functions as your ticket as well. Um,

676
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: So the kids were like, you know, they got twenty

677
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 1: quids on it, and they were obviously just beeping because

678
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: they had no concept. You know, there was no handing over,

679
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: there was no That is the other thing as well

680
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: suggested top up amount a hundred quid. It's kind of like, um. So.

681
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: One of the reasons why so I was speaking to

682
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: a couple of our people about this, is when you

683
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: have these QR codes on tables and stuff. Some people

684
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: felt that the spends went down because people could see

685
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: what they were spending before they pressed spend. Right, So,

686
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: if you go to the bar, oh, can I have

687
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: to Gin and Tonic doubles? Yeah? Why not? Cool? Bang,

688
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: you get hit with the okay, that's what it is,

689
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: and you just tap your card. Yeah you don't want

690
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: to make a scene. Yeah, well you're kind of well

691
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: also it's kind of like fine whatever, it's just now

692
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: it's too late when when you're ordering on the thing,

693
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: it's like I was for kard extra for a Yeah,

694
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: I'll probably just yeah cool, yeah, we'll just get that

695
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: and you've got time to think about your financial But

696
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: but you know, so there's there's benefits of both. And

697
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: you know, from a bar's point of view and also

698
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: from a consumer's point of view. Yeah, yeah, I mean

699
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: there were there were certainly benefits to the consumers at

700
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: this festival in a way, you know, once those of them,

701
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't outweigh it. I didn't think so. I remember

702
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: more hassle. It's much more hassle um to put it

703
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: on because because we've already got a system like that,

704
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: which is a debit card, who is cash less, you'd

705
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: accept card, but because they need the other bearing information

706
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: and sort of financial thing and also having that money

707
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: in your in your account weeks before the festival, because

708
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: people would have been emailed called top up your card. Now, yeah, yeah,

709
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: I guess they could have been Yeah, I think they

710
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: think they could have been induced to sort of do it.

711
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: But before and even if you know, ten puts of

712
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: a of a hundred thousand people puts a hundred quid on,

713
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: that's a lot of money that goes into your account. Yeah,

714
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: that's that. Yeah, you can you can meet you can

715
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 1: meet some of your overheads with that. Yeah, it was.

716
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: It was really interesting. But I think you're absolutely right.

717
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: It seemed it seemed to me at that what at

718
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: that festival, It's like, I don't know this, there is

719
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: a convenience aspect for the punter here, but I don't

720
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: think they're getting the optimal experience. I think that the

721
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: festival itself is the one that's really Yeah, I mean

722
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: that there isn't. It isn't and it it probably was

723
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: quite early adoption, but it's coming a lot more adopted

724
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 1: adopted across festivals. Yeah, it was. It was fascinating. Anyhow,

725
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: Just before we just before we take a break, but

726
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: I want to finish off with something again, really interesting

727
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: headline I saw just just a couple of days ago

728
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: in the Guardian and the headline was makes comeback as

729
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: cost of living crisis bites says post office. And yeah, basically, um,

730
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's talking about this kind of idea of budgeting,

731
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: about being aware of how much you spend. Basically, as

732
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: everyone's bills are going up and everyone is feeling in

733
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: some cases significantly poorer, people are turning back to cash

734
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: as a way of budgeting, as a way of just

735
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: being kind of in control of what they're spending. Um

736
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 1: and yeah, according the according to the post Office, which

737
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 1: you know you can you can withdraw and deposit cash

738
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: through the post office here in the UK. Um that

739
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: those numbers are rocketing up. Cash use is kind of

740
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: trending back up in these in these sort of very

741
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: difficult times. So I think from this first section, really

742
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: the decline of cash is not nearly as straightforward certainly

743
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: as I thought. Um, and it's declining, but it's not

744
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: going down without a fight. So let's take a quick

745
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: break the coffee, hey, with cash, and then after the

746
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: break we'll kind of look at, you know, how this

747
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:25,439
Speaker 1: cash lest society who is driving We're back, We are back.

748
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: I thought I'd bring us back this time because I've

749
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: had my coffee which I didn't pay for with cash

750
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: because I forgot it. But yeah, well that leads us

751
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: in nicely towards I want to talk about this, as

752
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, this trend towards cash lessness and how

753
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: we ended up here, because I think there's often a

754
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: sense that the cash less society, you know, cashlessness is

755
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: something that we the people, we the consumer, have asked for,

756
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: and the reality is a lot more nuanced, I think

757
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: because cars And again I want to I want to

758
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: refer back to this book by Brett Scott here. As

759
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: he points out in the book, it's it's more a

760
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: case of the fact that banks, fintech companies, payment networks,

761
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: and governments have actually all driven this process and it's

762
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: been very much painted as something that we want, that

763
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: we have requested, but it's actually it's actually far from

764
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: that because these entities, you know that, if you like,

765
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: the sort of traditional financial system, have a lot to

766
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: gain from promoting cashlessness, and um, you know, it's very

767
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: much in their interest to do it because they don't

768
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: like cash. Cash is cash is kind of runs contrary

769
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: to what they know, to their profit motive, to what

770
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: they are trying to achieve. So if we think of

771
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: it from the point of view of let's say, banks,

772
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: payment networks by that I've ever seen in the likes

773
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: of Visa and master Card and and you know, you

774
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: can think back to those episode is that we did

775
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: sort of right at the beginning when we started doing

776
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: this money, Yeah, what is money and how it moves around?

777
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: And we we took a look kind of under the

778
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: hood as it were, as as you know that this

779
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: huge network, this that all these steps that goes that

780
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: that we go through. When you know, I taped my

781
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: bank card in a shop, you know what that happens.

782
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: All the kind of people involved and you know how

783
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: interconnected it all is and how centralized all this sort

784
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: of stuff. But if we consider, if we look at

785
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: cash lessness from the point of view of banks, payment networks, etcetera,

786
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 1: it's it's easy to see what they would gain from

787
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: kind of trying to phase cash out, because first of all,

788
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: you've got lower overheads, you've got fewer you've got fewer

789
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: A T M s to need to maintain. Hence why

790
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: so many of them have disappeared. You remember it was

791
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: twenty three almost here in the UK. Ditto with physical branches.

792
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: A physical branch, you know, you have to pay rent

793
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: on that, you have to upkeep it, you have to

794
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: pay the staff inside it. I think you have to heat. Yeah,

795
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: especially now, I mean that that's really interesting. You know,

796
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: as as as these overheads get higher, are we going

797
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 1: to see more and more physical bank branches building? Society

798
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: branches close? Um so, And you know, it's much cheaper

799
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: to move these things online. It's much cheaper to pay

800
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of software developers to develop an app or

801
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: to open a call center and things like that to

802
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: take these things, you know, to to to remove these

803
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: things from interesting what you're talking about because We've touched

804
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: on this when we talked about the metaverse. Yeah, so

805
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: like things coming out of the real world, not on

806
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: the high street in a warehouse, on an app. But

807
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: then also and that's that's very that's that's logical and

808
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 1: seems um very sort of straightforward with physical goods. Yeah,

809
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: I want this water bottle. I'm going to order it

810
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: from here and send it here. I don't need to

811
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: go into the shop and be told about what water

812
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: bottle holes that water or more more more commonly, in

813
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: my experience, I don't want to go into a shop

814
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: to buy a water ball. Oh no, sorry, we've sold out, Yes,

815
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: which happens, And I don't want to have to leave

816
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: the house unless to get a water bottle, to drive

817
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: down to our gos to park, pay for the parking,

818
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: to buy a five pounds water ball. And yeah, so

819
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: the convenience and thing there, But then it's also with

820
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: the entertainment side of it, so cool. There is a

821
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: social aspect of it, going out to live entertainment, seeing

822
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: your favorite band, watching your favorite comedian, going out and

823
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: eating at a restaurant. Like all of that is now

824
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: being packaged up and put into a VR goggle. Or

825
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: on your phone. Yeah, and and it's it's it's the

826
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: way of keeping the economy growing. Yeah, but there there

827
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: are disadvantages to Yeah, there are loads of potential benefits,

828
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: but the disadvantages, the drawbacks you know, when you when

829
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: you kind of dig down into it as as as

830
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 1: as he does so well in this book, the drawbacks

831
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: are huge, you know, because well we'll look at those

832
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: in a bit. But yeah, obviously, and going back to

833
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: this festival example we were talking about, is the cashlessness.

834
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: More electronic payments, more digitized payments means better data what

835
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 1: we're spending, where we're spending. And data is is the

836
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: twenty one centuries most valuable commodity, isn't it. And yeah,

837
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: you don't need to you don't need to extrapolate it

838
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: very far to to to see how useful that data

839
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: can be. Um. And yeah, you know, more digital payments

840
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: means more money going to provide you know, those providing

841
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: payment infrastructure. So the likes of Visa and master Card,

842
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: remember they take you know, they have they get a

843
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: percentage of all those payments and those and the cost

844
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:42,959
Speaker 1: for that has passed on to all of us, whether

845
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: we use card or not. And it also means more

846
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: digital payments means more tax revenues for central banks. Now

847
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: we'll come back to central banks later because this is

848
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: this is kind of separate. Well, we'll stick with the

849
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: commercial sector with the corporate sector for the time being.

850
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: But just consider for a moment what a breakdown of

851
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: your everyday spending tell Someone tells you a bank card company,

852
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: whatever appetite, he's complete degenerate. Yeah, I mean it. Yeah,

853
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: it tells that you know, if you saw my if

854
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: you saw my spending for today, and or you know,

855
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: even you know, and as you get more and more

856
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 1: of that data, you get a bigger and bigger picture,

857
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: don't you. But you'd be able to figure out roughly

858
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 1: where I live, when I get up, when I leave

859
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: the house, you know, when I go, you know, what

860
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:32,879
Speaker 1: time I get on the bus, or all this sort

861
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: of stuff with you. They'll be able to dig it,

862
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: dig into your predudiction. You know, the fact that you

863
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: eat two egg rolls without blinking. All this sort of stuff,

864
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, sustenance. It's called it. But it's why, it's

865
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 1: why Oyster card was kind of one of the reasons

866
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: why Oyster card, because they wanted to have the information

867
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: on where people were going, because normally when you pay,

868
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: would you buy a travel card. Um, I don't know

869
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: if it had the information. Okay, this person has got

870
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: in here and got off here because it's just a

871
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 1: little bit of information on a magnetic strip. But now

872
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: it's with the oyster card. It's kind of they wanted

873
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: to go called these are the roots that are busy.

874
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 1: These are the times that it is busy. We need

875
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: to increase the capacity on this line. And this is

876
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: where people are traveling from here to here and they're

877
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: figuring it out and okay, we need to man this

878
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: station with more people because there's just more frequency of

879
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 1: of travelers. And in the context of a public service

880
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: like a like a transport network, that is I think

881
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: arguably a good thing. Because he's saying that the government

882
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 1: is not a public service. I don't think always acts

883
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: on paper. It is. It makes sense, but because humans

884
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: are corruptible and there is power and overreach, it can

885
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: be abused and will be abused. Yeah, well, I think

886
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: it's useful that sort of that sort of data can

887
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 1: be useful when providing a public service like a transport network,

888
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: but for profiteering, you know, for companies. You know, it's

889
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 1: it's a different story because really what that data enables

890
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: them to do is know more about us and our

891
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: spending habits and therefore get us to spend more money

892
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: with them basically sell us more stuff. Um So the

893
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: data that I don't necessarily have a problem with, if

894
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: I'm honest, do you know what I mean, I don't

895
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: have a problem with that. It's I suppose it's not.

896
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: It's not all badness, but it's kind of when when

897
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: there's what happens is that it's it's it blocks out

898
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: other people from because it's it's kind of it's that's

899
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: not information is available to everyone. Yeah, it's available to

900
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: a few people, and then they become a monopoly and

901
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: then they are able to stifle competition, and that's where

902
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 1: the problem is capitalism. But capitalism is a problem, But

903
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 1: it's the best option we've got. But I mean it's yeah,

904
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's useful in a way because I suppose

905
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: if you're going to be advertised at then they might

906
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: as well you want or any might. Yeah, but I

907
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: mean it blocks you and doesn't it Also it means

908
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: that these these corporations, these entities are kind of blonding. Yeah, blink,

909
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: that is a valid point. Yeah, you know, so I

910
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: think we're a lot more valuable than than we that

911
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: we give ourselves credit for. Yeah, maybe dependent isn't the word,

912
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: but we're a lot more shaped by by them, and

913
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: and they are using our own data to shape us

914
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: in that way. And obviously cash is something that kicks

915
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: back against this, and this is this is a big

916
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: part of why the the idea of a cashless society

917
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: is being pushed on us more and more. Yes, there's

918
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 1: a convenience aspect to it, absolutely, but yes there's an

919
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 1: efficiency access of a factor to it. It's much more efficient.

920
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: But there are certain freedoms and privacies that you are

921
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 1: handing over. And it's not as obvious as it seems.

922
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: A select group of companies and thereby a select group

923
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: of INDIVI duals really are making a ton of money

924
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: from that from us going cash less, and you know,

925
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: we're we're putting that money in their in their pockets.

926
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: And this, this trend towards caseousness is worrying for so

927
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: many reasons. And as I said, it's accelerating. And now

928
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean you have some to be perfectly honest, absolutely

929
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: disgraceful things going on. Now. Um, someone again, someone sent

930
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: me this on Twitter in response to my poll. This

931
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: is a notice that was in that was posted by

932
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: a nat West branch looking to withdraw cash. It says,

933
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: our primary aim is to keep customs safe and secure,

934
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: and our branches follow our processes carefully to achieve this.

935
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: This will include, let's get that straight, our primary aim

936
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: is to keep customers safe and secure. That's a lie.

937
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: Our prime prime is to make make money. Yeah, But

938
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 1: so this will include asking you questions about the purpose

939
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: of your withdrawal. We may also ask for supporting documentation,

940
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,760
Speaker 1: such as an invoice. This helps us validate the withdrawal

941
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: is genuine and protect you against fraud and scams. Now,

942
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: this kind of this idea of scam protection is you know,

943
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: is the angle is an angle that they like to

944
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: push and certainly you know there is I mean scam

945
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: scamming is at an epidemic levels. Um. I think actually

946
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: the UK government designated you know, scamming as a as

947
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: a kind of national security threat. It's so widespread here

948
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: and and everywhere. But what this kind of what this

949
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: idea of scam protection really does. It's kind of passing

950
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: the blame onto the person who is trying to withdraw

951
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: withdraw their own money. You know, it's like, oh, we're

952
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: keeping you safe from we're in order to combat scammers.

953
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: A few questions. Step into the room. Yeah, so I'm

954
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: just trying to pair building it. Yeah, I don't need

955
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 1: I don't need this. And also it's kind of like, okay, cool,

956
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: what what It seems like far fetched? But if this

957
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: is the first step, if you give an inch, they're

958
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: take a mile. We're gonna go. So I see you're

959
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: taking out uh pounds there, guy, M yes, what's that for.

960
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: I'd rather not say. Guy. We're all friends. Guy, we're

961
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: keeping you safe. Look, he's none of their business. I

962
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: know it's last week you took out twenty pounds is

963
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: what we didn't ask you then, But we're just just

964
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: wanting to know. Yeah, it's what are you doing. I'm

965
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: completely friendly. Guys, what's none of your business. It's none

966
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: of your business. Get out of my face. So I

967
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: can't get it computers, no unless the manager. I am

968
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: the manager. Also, this is an app. The branch shutdown

969
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: two weeks ago. I'm a chat but I am the

970
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: manager and not really. No, but it's it's it's an oversight,

971
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: it's and it's it's over each, over each, sorry, and

972
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: but also it's it's kind of like when you get

973
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: on the wrong side of the wrong people, they can

974
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: turn off your money, like Wiki leaks. That was something

975
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: example we keep going back to. They were exposing the

976
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 1: government for some of the heinous things that they've done

977
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 1: just journalism essentially, and the US government lent on payment providers.

978
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: You can't get these guys funding anymore, so they stopped that.

979
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: They silenced them. And if it wasn't for bitcoin, and

980
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: like they silenced them in a different way now like yeah,

981
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: but like you know, and it's with something like that

982
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: on a national scale call but like it can um,

983
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: you know, become more authoritarian like the CCP absolutely with

984
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: There was a guy I was watching a YouTube video

985
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: about it today, some guy who was trying to protest

986
00:53:54,920 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: against the bank, the banks withholding money in Yeah, and

987
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: he had his health card turned off and you know

988
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 1: it's for COVID reasons. Yeah, it's oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

989
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 1: it goes his COVID pass goes from green to red. Yeah,

990
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's crazy, it's crazy. We're gonna get We're

991
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: gonna talk about China in more detail shortly, but yeah,

992
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: I mean this idea of you now go into a

993
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: bank and you want to withdraw cash and you get

994
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: a whole load of questions. This is a case in

995
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: the U s as well. I was listening to an

996
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: episode of the What Bitcoin Did podcast and Peter McCormick,

997
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: the host, was was talking with with his guest about

998
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: this and was saying that he had you know, I mean,

999
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: he lies when he's asked these things. Um, and I

1000
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: think he said that he'd been he'd been barred from

1001
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: having an account with one of the banks here in

1002
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 1: the UK as a result of that, because I think

1003
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: he'd admitted on his podcast that he lied. But I

1004
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: had to. I had to change who I was dealing

1005
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: with with crypto with it stamp. They were asking, they

1006
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: were so I've been trading with them or you know,

1007
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: holding some some some some coins and bits and Bob's there,

1008
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: and they kept on asking me increasingly like where where

1009
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: do you get this money? What was it all from?

1010
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: And and I this is okay, cool, I'll try and

1011
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: prove this. I went onto my bank statements and it

1012
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: was so long ago that I made some of these transactions.

1013
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: My online banking didn't go far back. I had to

1014
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: call my bank and get them to send things. And

1015
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: then I went, you know what, I'm just I'm just

1016
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: going to take my money out of here if it's

1017
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: somewhere else. Yeah, I mean whole storage, which is yeah, yeah, finally,

1018
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: um yeah, which is I mean a bit stamp is

1019
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,280
Speaker 1: a is a European exchange and the EU is cracking

1020
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: down quite hard on on Krypto. Yeah, I'm all perfectly

1021
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: legal where I got my money from as well away

1022
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: and none of us, none of us thought any differently, Mike, Um, yes,

1023
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 1: so thank you. Down with me, know things all right?

1024
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: So yeah, this, this, this trend towards cashlessness is is

1025
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: being accelerated aggressively by by governments, but by the banking,

1026
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: the fintech industry, and this idea of fintech, you know,

1027
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: financial technology. This this industry has grown exponentially over the

1028
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: last few years, and it's very much built around the

1029
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 1: idea of a cash list society because banks don't like cash.

1030
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: But if you're a fintech, you know, if you're a

1031
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: fintech platform that exists only on an app, then you know,

1032
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: you're you're going to hate cash. Cash is you can't

1033
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: work with cash. When we were doing like the club

1034
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: Nights student nights is to run events up and down

1035
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: the country. And one of the ways you'd lose money

1036
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: by banking because there would be a charge for counting

1037
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: your money. So like any cash deposits, there would be

1038
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 1: a charge on and I get it because it takes time.

1039
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: But like, you know, it's it's like, that's it's crazy.

1040
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: It's okay, cool to bank with us. We will charge

1041
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: you to have an account, and also we will charge

1042
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: you to put money into the account. And what we

1043
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: do with that money, well, we're going to be investing that.

1044
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: Don't worry money. Yeah, it's it's it's terrible, really, you

1045
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: know it's but you know this My point is, I

1046
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: guess that this is a coordinated attack. Yes, this is

1047
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: not something it's painted as something that we've got what

1048
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: you've said attack there, coordinated attack, yeah, coordinated attack on

1049
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: on cash on cash. Yeah, you know, it's a coordinated

1050
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: effort by the banking and fintech sector to move us

1051
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: towards a cashalist society because the benefits for them are massive,

1052
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, they bottom line, they stand to make a

1053
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: heck of a lot of money from it. Right Listen,

1054
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,919
Speaker 1: we have been going on a lot about cashlessness, and

1055
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: there's still so much more that we need to touch

1056
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 1: on and need to talk about. I think we're gonna

1057
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,439
Speaker 1: need to prepen in this and revisit this all next week.

1058
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: Good idea, See you next week, folks, spend some cash.

1059
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to the coin Bureau podcast.

1060
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Speaker 1: If you'd like to learn more about cryptocurrency, you can

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Speaker 1: visit our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com forward slash

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Speaker 1: coin Bureau. You can also go to coin bureau dot

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Speaker 1: com for loads more information about all things crypto. You

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Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter and at coin Bureau all

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Speaker 1: on word, and I'm also active on TikTok and Instagram

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Speaker 1: as well. First of all, it's not thank you for listening.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome for great content. Yeah, Like this is free

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Speaker 1: and they're learning about a fairly great topic in a

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Speaker 1: non boring way. If you'd like to visit me and

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Speaker 1: hear more about me, go to mooch about m O

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Speaker 1: O C H A, B O U T or else.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever we get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: The coin Viera podcast is a production of I Heart Radio.