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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 4: All right, good morning here, welcome the Counterpoints. I'm all

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Speaker 4: alone in this spacious studio here in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 4: Emily is joining us from our London bureau. Emily, tell

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Speaker 4: us what you're doing in London?

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Speaker 3: How you doing?

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Speaker 5: That's right, Well, it's my second weekend unheard, so I'm

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Speaker 5: hanging out here with the team in London getting to

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Speaker 5: know everyone. But it was a good week to be

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Speaker 5: in Europe because of the fallout from the EU election.

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Speaker 5: Cyber and Crystal have done a great job covering it.

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Speaker 5: But it has been fascinating to sort of see a

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Speaker 5: lot of it play out here in London. But we

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Speaker 5: have domestically so much on the docket for today's show,

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Speaker 5: and actually also and the guest that you have us

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Speaker 5: booked with today. I just it will be an incredible conversation,

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Speaker 5: no doubt about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that'll be interesting.

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Speaker 4: We're going to talk to Shabaz Gil who used to

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Speaker 4: serve as chief of staff to Imran Khan. He was

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Speaker 4: famously over there in Pakistani, was famously arrested there, tortured,

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Speaker 4: was able to get out of the tension, escape the country.

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Speaker 3: He's here in the United States.

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Speaker 4: He's going to update us on some of the transnational

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Speaker 4: repression that's going on between the United States and Pakistan here. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: we're going to talk about the Hunter Biden conviction yesterday.

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Speaker 4: We also on Monday, we had Lauren Windsor on the

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Speaker 4: show's Democratic Activists and journalists who did the undercover audio

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Speaker 4: of Alito and Roberts. She also has audio of Alito's wife,

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Speaker 4: which is.

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Speaker 3: Kind of funny.

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Speaker 4: At minimum, I think everybody across the spectrum can agree

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Speaker 4: it's that it's funny.

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Speaker 3: So we'll talk about that.

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Speaker 4: Israel and Hamas are both kind of dueling over who

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Speaker 4: has accepted the ceasefire deal.

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Speaker 3: They're both each is saying that they've basically.

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Speaker 4: That their opponents have rejected it, but their opponents are

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Speaker 4: saying they've accepted. It's completely confusing, but we're going to

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Speaker 4: untaggle all the latest of that.

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Speaker 3: On that question.

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Speaker 4: Sean Fain is now facing threats basically from this independent

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Speaker 4: monitor connected to the Department of Justice.

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Speaker 3: We can unpack some of that. Emily.

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Speaker 4: Fox News kind of stepped in it with this Jeffrey

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Speaker 4: Epstein Donald Trump question, didn't they Yeah.

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Speaker 6: They really did.

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Speaker 5: They edited part of an answer out and then uploaded

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Speaker 5: the full answer. So either that's a defensive Fox or

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Speaker 5: an argument against the sort of journalism behind this question.

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Speaker 6: So we'll get to that.

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Speaker 5: Because Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's relationship too, well,

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Speaker 5: everyone in the corridors of power remains extremely relevant. And

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Speaker 5: on that note, our Friday show, we are going to

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Speaker 5: be having a back and forth with orn Cass of

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Speaker 5: America Compass. He's recently been profiled as like the man

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Speaker 5: turning the Republican Party populist, trying to turn the Republican

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Speaker 5: Party populist. So Ryan and I think have some good

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Speaker 5: points of contrast to bring out with orin so we're

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Speaker 5: looking forward to a good conversation. Make sure to subscribe

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Speaker 5: to Breaking Points premium for an early version of that

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Speaker 5: show on Thursday evening.

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Speaker 3: Yes indeed, so let's talk about Hunter Biden.

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Speaker 4: So Hunter Biden yesterday in rapid fashion, so fast that

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Speaker 4: reporters and Hunter's family were not even able to get

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Speaker 4: into the courtroom in time to kind of see the verdict.

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Speaker 4: That's how quickly the jury was able to come to

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Speaker 4: the conclusion that he was guilty of three felony charges

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Speaker 4: connected to basically illegal possession of a weapon lying on

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Speaker 4: lying on his background check information as something grime.

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Speaker 3: What did Matt Gates call it? Kind of stupid?

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Speaker 4: Basically basically on the form and I want to hear

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Speaker 4: your reaction to this. On the form it says are

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Speaker 4: you Are you using drugs? Grammatically just a mess of

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Speaker 4: a question. And I pointed this out at the time,

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Speaker 4: and Hunter Biden actually did use the defense that I

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Speaker 4: sort of jokingly provided, which was that he wasn't using

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Speaker 4: drugs at the time like this, because the forum says

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Speaker 4: are you using drugs? And what so Hunter said, not

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Speaker 4: only am I not using drugs at this very moment.

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Speaker 4: What Hunter had said is that he was going in

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Speaker 4: and out of bouts of sobriety. And then relapse during

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Speaker 4: this period. And so if you are an addict, if

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Speaker 4: you're somebody that has serious problems, a lot of times

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Speaker 4: you might say, look, a week's sober, and I'm never

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Speaker 4: gonna drink again. I'm never gonna do drugs again the

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Speaker 4: rest of my life. And if so somebody asked you

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Speaker 4: at that moment, are you using, you would say no, honestly,

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Speaker 4: that night you might use. So were you lying? Then

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Speaker 4: it's like a very philosophical question. The jury didn't take

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Speaker 4: long to debate the question, though, and found him just

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Speaker 4: straight up guilty.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I was going to say, I mean, I think what

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Speaker 5: they read into this is a lack of sincerity. I mean,

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Speaker 5: there's diary, or there's entries in the laptop, there's parts

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Speaker 5: of his own book that are so in such close

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Speaker 5: proximity to the day that he signed in the form

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Speaker 5: that said, I mean he had Abay Lowell, he had

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Speaker 5: sort of brought out the And again, this is the

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Speaker 5: state of Delaware, a very friendly state for the Biden,

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Speaker 5: so it's a friendly jury, and they.

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Speaker 6: Had this addiction defense.

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Speaker 5: So I was actually fairly surprised by how quickly they

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Speaker 5: returned this results. One of the more interesting elements was

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Speaker 5: flagged in playbook this morning. They noted a source actually

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Speaker 5: told them on the dem side it would have been

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Speaker 5: worse if he had been found not guilty for the

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty four campaign, simply because that would have fed

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Speaker 5: into the broader narrative being pushed.

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Speaker 6: And I think it's a correct narrative, and I think

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Speaker 6: it still.

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Speaker 5: Stands that Hunter Biden is being unduly protected by the

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Speaker 5: Department of Justice. And the reason that is still my

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Speaker 5: big takeaway from this case is the gun charge is

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Speaker 5: by far and away the safest charge that Hunter Biden

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Speaker 5: could have been hit with.

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Speaker 6: We've seen this defense. You mentioned Matt Gates.

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Speaker 5: We've seen Thomas Massey talk about this that you know,

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Speaker 5: of all the things in the world to charge Hunter

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Speaker 5: Biden with, he's still by this Department of Justice has

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Speaker 5: not been charged with a PHARAH violation despite the fact

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Speaker 5: that he did not register for his work with Barisma

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Speaker 5: and other clients that.

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Speaker 6: Is a felony.

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Speaker 5: He has the DOJ slow walked to the point where

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Speaker 5: the statute of limitations expired on felony tax violations.

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Speaker 6: He actually didn't.

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Speaker 5: Pay taxes on income the year that he was taking

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Speaker 5: money from Barisma, and other foreign clients, a much more

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Speaker 5: serious charge. And again they slow walked. The whistleblowers have

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Speaker 5: talked about this, but the DOJ and under the Biden administration,

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Speaker 5: slow walked the investigation to the point where the statute

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Speaker 5: of limitations on more serious charges expired. And he still

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Speaker 5: hasn't been hit with a Phara violation. He could still

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Speaker 5: be hit with a fair of violation. But there's i mean,

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Speaker 5: from his own book, from the laptop, there's just blatantly

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Speaker 5: obvious evidence. It is plain as day that they should

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Speaker 5: charge him with a fair of violation. They charged Palamanno

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Speaker 5: fort and if they don't hit him with a FARO violation,

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Speaker 5: that pretty much tells you what you need to know.

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Speaker 5: But we already know that they slow walked to the

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Speaker 5: statute of limitations and the other tax charges expired. It's

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Speaker 5: happening under his father's DOJ. So it does look bad,

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Speaker 5: and I think, frankly it is bad.

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Speaker 4: And the defense from his camp about why he shouldn't

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Speaker 4: be charged as a foreign agent is kind of amusing,

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Speaker 4: and it basically goes, he didn't actually do any work,

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Speaker 4: you know, he took money from these foreign entities, like

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Speaker 4: he doesn't deny that, but then he just put that

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Speaker 4: money right up his nose and didn't actually, yeah, he

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Speaker 4: used his name to get the money, but he did

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Speaker 4: not use his name to then exert any influence in Washington.

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Speaker 4: He just went to skid roll and he went to

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Speaker 4: Vegas and traveled the country and did what. You can

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Speaker 4: find out what he did if you want to search

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Speaker 4: or Rita's memoir even and very little of that involved

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Speaker 4: like actual influence. Pedly now, it probably wouldn't be too

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Speaker 4: hard for him to find some small thing that he did.

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Speaker 4: And obviously during this period of his life, he's not

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Speaker 4: a big one for paperwork. The fact that he didn't

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Speaker 4: file any taxes for many years in a row means that, like,

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Speaker 4: if you're not filing your taxes, you're probably not filing

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Speaker 4: any of your lobbying paperwork either whether he's lot, whether

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Speaker 4: he's lobbying or not. It does seem like there's credible

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Speaker 4: potential for some jail time, some prison time here. What's

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Speaker 4: your guess, what's your sense of whether or not he'll

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Speaker 4: actually go to some minimum security federal prison as a

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Speaker 4: result of this.

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Speaker 6: It's a really good question.

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Speaker 5: And when also, I mean, does it play out during

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Speaker 5: the election. I think is a very interesting question as well.

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Speaker 5: I'm guessing I think you're right. I think you're right

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Speaker 5: that he'll probably get some minimal amount of time in

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Speaker 5: a minimal security prison. He might not, though, I think

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Speaker 5: this is what isn't this his first time fell in

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Speaker 5: the actual conviction. He hasn't been convicted of anything before,

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Speaker 5: so that's helpful obviously.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I saw some statistics in Glenn Thrush's article

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Speaker 4: in New York Times. It's something like eight percent of

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Speaker 4: people charged with this the same crime don't get any

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Speaker 4: prison time, but ninety two percent due This is also

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Speaker 4: an unusual case to charge in the sense that.

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Speaker 3: Two things.

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Speaker 4: One the gun was not used in the commission of

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Speaker 4: a crime, and two the person is now sober. So

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Speaker 4: in most cases, like federal prosecutors who would come across

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Speaker 4: this kind of thing would say, given these other circumstances,

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Speaker 4: we're not going to go with this. However, this is

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Speaker 4: and in fact, they basically got to a deal where

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Speaker 4: he wasn't going to serve any prison time, you know,

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Speaker 4: if you remember months ago. But then it blew up

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Speaker 4: in front of in front of the judge. The judge

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Speaker 4: was questioning different versi of it. Hunter's team wanted, you know,

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Speaker 4: future administrations not to be able to have any you know,

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Speaker 4: say over kind of the implementation of his sentence, and

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Speaker 4: you know, the whole thing blew up in the courtroom,

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Speaker 4: and so she threw out the plea deal, and that's

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Speaker 4: why it ended up going to trial rather than getting

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Speaker 4: pled out, like I think most of these, uh, most

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Speaker 4: of these would otherwise.

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Speaker 3: It does. Your answer.

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Speaker 4: Brought to mind Trump as well, when when you were saying, like,

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Speaker 4: this is the the cheapest, silliest, like lamest thing that

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Speaker 4: you could convict the person for, when there are all

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Speaker 4: these other more substantial things that are either coming down

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Speaker 4: the pike or could be thrown at him, and it right,

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Speaker 4: It reminded me of Trump and and the prosecution in

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Speaker 4: New York, where it's like, okay, yeah, clearly guilty of that.

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Speaker 4: And and like Hunter, Hunter is clearly guilty. He did

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Speaker 4: the thing, he filled out the form, he had the gun.

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Speaker 4: He was, you know, using drugs. We know that because

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Speaker 4: he's he talks about it, and he's he brags about

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Speaker 4: it on his you know, on that on that laptop.

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Speaker 4: But I think you're right. Compared to the more systemic things.

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Speaker 4: It is small, and I wonder if there's just there's

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Speaker 4: just something about our system that just has such a

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Speaker 4: hard time going after itself. Like it it's fine nibbling

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Speaker 4: around the edges, but like going right.

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Speaker 3: For the part of it, it's.

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Speaker 4: Just much much more difficult. Do you think, well, we've

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Speaker 4: seen the last of this. The prosecutors are saying they

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Speaker 4: still have some tax charges that they could launch, even

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Speaker 4: if they're not, even if some of them have expired.

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Speaker 3: Do you expect we're going to see more of this?

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Speaker 5: Well, he is facing charges in California. He's likely to

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Speaker 5: appeal this decision, so it's tax charges in California, and

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Speaker 5: he's probably going to appeal the decision that was just made.

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Speaker 5: So I think it's going to continue to play out.

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Speaker 5: And one of the key differences, to your point, it

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Speaker 5: is an interesting point. One of the key differences I

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Speaker 5: think with Trump is that we've seen everything thrown at

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Speaker 5: the wall with Trump, which we've talked about. I mean,

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Speaker 5: when you have the Document's case, when you have the

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Speaker 5: January sixth charges and you're talking about the hush money

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Speaker 5: to the porn star, it's like, you know, they really

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Speaker 5: were throwing they were doing to throw everything at the

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Speaker 5: wall and see what sticks strategy, whereas with Hunter Biden,

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Speaker 5: this is so far the thing that Weiss has charged

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Speaker 5: him with. And you know, he even tried to do

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Speaker 5: a plea deal that the judge was like, well, hold

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Speaker 5: on last summer, the judge was like, are you the prosecutor?

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Speaker 6: What kind of prosecutor would do? It was such a sweetheart.

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Speaker 5: Deal that the judge in this very unusual moment had

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Speaker 5: to be like, wait a second, what's going on here?

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Speaker 5: Because what Wyss's attempted to prosecute just didn't make sense

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Speaker 5: from the perspective of like the government prosecuting a case.

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Speaker 5: So I would say that that to me seems to

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Speaker 5: be a significant difference between between Trump and Hunter.

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Speaker 6: That said, we.

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Speaker 5: Talked in our debate segment last week with Will Chamberlain that,

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Speaker 5: as he said, Republicans are planning to do the throw

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Speaker 5: everything at the wall and see what sticks strategy if

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump is elected.

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Speaker 6: I think he had something where.

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Speaker 5: He was like, watch out, because it's it's coming right

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Speaker 5: back in that direction.

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Speaker 6: If Donald Trump wins, we.

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Speaker 3: Can put up a two here.

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Speaker 4: President Joe Biden has said that he has no plans

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Speaker 4: to pardon Hunter Biden. He said, you know, I'm the president,

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Speaker 4: but I'm also a father. He's proud of his son.

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Speaker 4: He wants to be there for him. I wonder how

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Speaker 4: true that is if if Biden does lose reelection in November,

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Speaker 4: I think most of the country would expect him on

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Speaker 4: the way out to pardon his son. I think the

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Speaker 4: entire country would forgive him at that point for.

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Speaker 3: Doing so, just on a human level.

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Speaker 4: Like I think most people would almost think it was

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Speaker 4: kind of cruel and callous if a parent had the

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Speaker 4: opportunity on their way out to pardon their son and

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Speaker 4: didn't take it be almost weird.

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Speaker 5: Like Bill Clinton and his brother. Am I remembering that

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Speaker 5: it was a Bill Clinton's brook?

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Speaker 3: Did he? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: That was Roger Clinton, which is a fascinating story. Like

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Speaker 4: Bill Clinton was informed when he was governor of Arkansas

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Speaker 4: that his brother was under investigation for selling small amounts

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Speaker 4: of crack uh in.

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Speaker 3: Order to feed his habit.

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Speaker 4: And basically the head of the police in Arkansas said,

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Speaker 4: what do you want me to do about this?

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Speaker 7: Boss?

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Speaker 4: And according to Clinton, and this hasn't been challenged by anybody,

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Speaker 4: he said, just you know, treated how you would you

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Speaker 4: know anybody else? And he ended up going to prison. Uh,

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Speaker 4: Roger Clinton did I assume he. I don't know the

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Speaker 4: exact story of what, you know, what he what he

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Speaker 4: ended up doing towards the end, but he did he

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Speaker 4: did serve some time. So yeah, we'll see and I well,

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Speaker 4: you know, so Hunter's Hunter's best bet at this point

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Speaker 4: for avoiding jail time would be his dad losing perhaps

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Speaker 4: in November.

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Speaker 5: Well, and yeah, that was the interesting thing I read

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Speaker 5: into the playbook quote from that source today is that, actually,

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Speaker 5: I think the Biden campaign has realized that if they

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Speaker 5: can make Trump look over zealous in going after an

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Speaker 5: addict who's been treated fairly by the justice system, you know,

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Speaker 5: actually that if there's this appearance of fairness that he

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Speaker 5: was prosecuted, did the time, and Trump continues to you know,

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Speaker 5: attack this addict, then the Biden campaign SE's you know,

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Speaker 5: sort of an upside in it.

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Speaker 6: And it does. I just looked this up while we

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Speaker 6: were talking.

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Speaker 5: Rotric Clinton was pardoned for that nineteen eighty five cocaine

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Speaker 5: possession and it was drug trafficking before Clinton left office.

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Speaker 6: You know. It's also worth noting that the country basically

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Speaker 6: gave for gave Ford for.

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Speaker 5: Pardoning Nixon, even though it was really controversial at the time,

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Speaker 5: like very controversial at the time.

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Speaker 6: I think Biden would be safe with a pardon for Hunter.

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Speaker 4: Speaking of messy family members, let's move on to Martha Analito.

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Speaker 4: So on on Monday the over here bringing points, Lauren

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Speaker 4: Windsor released this, uh, this undercover audio that she had

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Speaker 4: taken of John Roberts and Samuel Samuel Alito at the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court Historical Society.

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Speaker 3: Gala about a week ago.

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Speaker 4: She also had she also had a conversation that evening

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Speaker 4: with Martha and Alito, his wife obviously less newsworthy in

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Speaker 4: the sense that she is not a lifetime appointed to

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Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. But there's some there's some tea leaves

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Speaker 4: that you can you can read in these comments from her.

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Speaker 4: They might have implications for whether or not Alito is

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Speaker 4: thinking about retiring. But there's also there's a lot, a

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Speaker 4: lot more to unpack here. Let's let's roll a little

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Speaker 4: bit of Alito, missus Alito and MS Windsor.

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Speaker 3: Why do you think they're coming after you?

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Speaker 8: I mean, like the whole like appeal to have head

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Speaker 8: and Flagg was like bullshit, right right, But that's you

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Speaker 8: know the other thing is that them not used to

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Speaker 8: believe that he should control me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so we'll go to Hell who never controls me.

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Speaker 6: You know what I want? I want a.

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Speaker 8: Sacred Heart of Jesus' flag because I have to look

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Speaker 8: across the lagoon at the Pride flag for the next

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Speaker 8: month exactly. And he's like, oh, please, don't put up

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Speaker 8: a flag.

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Speaker 7: I said, I won't do.

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Speaker 8: It because I'm deferring to you. But when you were

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Speaker 8: free of this nonsense, I'm putting it up. And I'm

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Speaker 8: going to send them a message every day, maybe every week.

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Speaker 8: I'll be changing the flags. They'll be all kind of

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Speaker 8: I made a flag in my head. This is how

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Speaker 8: I satisfy myself. I made a flag. It's white and

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Speaker 8: it's yellow and orange flames around it, and in the

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Speaker 8: middle is the word vigonia. Virgonia in Italian means shame,

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Speaker 8: virgonia v e r g o g n a vergonia, shame, shame,

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Speaker 8: shame of you, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, Okay, the shame the shame flag to counteract the

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Speaker 4: Pride flag.

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Speaker 3: Clever. Very interesting.

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Speaker 7: Uh.

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Speaker 4: The part that jumped out of me is potentially newsworthy.

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Speaker 3: Where she said, when you're done with all this nonsense.

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Speaker 4: And she made a couple of references in the conversation

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Speaker 4: about a post Supreme Court life for the Alitos, which

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Speaker 4: would suggest to me that if Trump is re elected,

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Speaker 4: he's he's in his he's well well into his seventies.

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Speaker 3: Now I can google this.

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Speaker 4: I think he's like seventy four or something, that that

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Speaker 4: he would be looking at retirement under a potential Trump administration.

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Speaker 7: Is that?

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Speaker 3: What is that what you read from that?

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Speaker 4: And is that the kind of kind of conventional wisdom

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Speaker 4: in conservative circles that that if Trump is elected, Thomas

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Speaker 4: an Alito in particular, who are you know getting up

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Speaker 4: there might might see their way to greener pastures real.

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Speaker 6: Time fact check, you nailed his age.

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Speaker 5: It's exactly seventy four years of age. You hear it

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Speaker 5: in consertive circles. You definitely hear more about Clarence Thomas,

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Speaker 5: because you know, I think, let me look up his

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Speaker 5: age really quickly. I think he's actually older than Alito is,

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Speaker 5: and here we go, he's seventy five yees, so they're

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Speaker 5: both a similar age.

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Speaker 6: But what's concerning to conservatives.

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Speaker 5: Right now especially is that they can't they feel as

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Speaker 5: though they can't trust Amy Coney, Barrett and Neil Gorsich

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Speaker 5: and Brett Kavanaugh because there's a real big difference. You know,

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Speaker 5: there's obviously a big difference between the members of the

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Speaker 5: GOP appointed members of the Court and the dumb appointed

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Speaker 5: members of the Court. But there's a huge rift within

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Speaker 5: the GOP members of the GOP appointed members of the Court,

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Speaker 5: between Thomas and Alino, Kavanaugh, Gorsich and Barrett. In and

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Speaker 5: of itself, that's something that really worries a lot of

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Speaker 5: people on the right. And I actually hadn't seen people

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Speaker 5: pick up. People on the right pick up on what

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Speaker 5: you did, Ryan, which is that she said, when we're

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Speaker 5: through with this all of this nonsense. It also shows

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Speaker 5: that he was really not pleased with the flag business.

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Speaker 5: In all likelihood, it doesn't prove that definitively, but it

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Speaker 5: seemed to have been an issue between the two of

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Speaker 5: them when Martha and said, you know, he didn't think

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Speaker 5: it was a good idea to put the plant flag up,

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Speaker 5: and be like, please don't put the flag up. I

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Speaker 5: will add Lauren Windsor is exceptionally good at this, better

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Speaker 5: than anyone in Project Veritas Is Roderer had an interesting

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Speaker 5: columns You a Christian writer this morning saying he changed

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Speaker 5: his mind on Project Veritas stuff over the years and

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Speaker 5: doesn't like what Lauren Windsor did because he feels like

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Speaker 5: it really blurs the distinction between public and private such

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Speaker 5: that people don't feel as though they can speak honestly

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Speaker 5: with friends, etc. That's a different question, I think, but

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Speaker 5: I found it interesting. I do think also one of

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Speaker 5: the risks of doing this type of journalism with Alito

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Speaker 5: in particular, the Alito recordings in particular, is that sometimes

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Speaker 5: people are just trying to get out of conversations. Doesn't

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Speaker 5: mean that it's not newsworthy, but sometimes it's like, did

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Speaker 5: he really He was even kind of going back and

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Speaker 5: forth on what he said about whether you can quote

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Speaker 5: split the difference in his own audio. My personal take

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Speaker 5: on all of this is that they're Catholics, and we

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Speaker 5: probably disagree on this Ryan, but you know, they're talking

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Speaker 5: like fairly orthodox Catholics do, and we know that they're

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Speaker 5: fairly orthodox Catholics, so there's.

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Speaker 6: Nothing too shocking.

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Speaker 5: I always think what they say, you know, if you

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Speaker 5: have audio of what they're saying, it's newsworthy as insight

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Speaker 5: into the most important judicial.

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Speaker 6: Body in the country. So I don't just beat that.

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Speaker 5: But I also think it sounds like pretty standard Catholic fair.

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Speaker 4: I always take with a grain of salt when people

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Speaker 4: are just agreeing with other people in conversation, because people

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Speaker 4: are strangers, people especially strangers, and in general people are

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Speaker 4: conflict averse. Like it's in public, like you're in line

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Speaker 4: at the post office or you're in line for a

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Speaker 4: drink at the Supreme Court, historical society reception, you're not

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Speaker 4: going to necessarily pick an argument with somebody.

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Speaker 3: Now in Alito's.

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Speaker 6: Camp, they got into it.

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Speaker 3: Though Martha An got into it.

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Speaker 4: Alito got into it a little bit and is like,

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Speaker 4: you know, rather than just giving platitudes, he did. He

441
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 4: did say, you know, like one side or the other

442
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 4: is going to win these are you know, some of

443
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 4: these things you can't compromise on. On the other hand,

444
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 4: like some things you can't compromise on like that is

445
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 4: that's also that also is a platitude. It depends on

446
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 4: your defin It's also something at that point, are we

447
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 4: talking about the control of the entire Yeah, well, it's also.

448
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 5: Something Ruth Bader Ginsberg would have said about women's protection

449
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 5: for women, for example, or.

450
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 6: Something like Title nine.

451
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 5: I don't want to put words in her mouth, obviously,

452
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 5: but it's a pretty clear argument when you're talking about,

453
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 5: you know, upholding the Civil Rights Act.

454
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 6: Of nineteen sixty four, for example, you know people.

455
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 3: Or anti gym the difference, right.

456
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so it's not you know, I think the

457
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 5: concept of not being able to split the difference isn't absurd,

458
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 5: and I think it's one that a lot of us

459
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 5: feel right now that, for example, you can't split the

460
00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 5: difference between people who believe, on the one hand, like

461
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 5: you and I, like life begins at conception versus that's

462
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,959
Speaker 5: like crazy nonsense.

463
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 6: Legally, it's very, very difficult to.

464
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 5: Split the difference if you have to polar opposite positions

465
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 5: like that. So I think that's the sort of where

466
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 5: he's coming from. I actually think it's something that you

467
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 5: can hear from a lot of people. If you believe,

468
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 5: for example, that you know, there are hard biological differences

469
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 5: between men and women, that gets really hard to legally

470
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 5: split the difference on things like Title nine.

471
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 6: That's what I read into it. I feel like it's

472
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 6: a pretty common sentiment among Americans these days.

473
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 4: It's it's been interesting to see the videos blow up

474
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 4: since Monday, you know, New York Times kind of led

475
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 4: lad with it. MSNBC was going crazy with it, and

476
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 4: then there was a lot, you know, a lot of

477
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 4: pushback about like the nature of it. And I think

478
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 4: my pushback against Roder Eyer would be when he's saying

479
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 4: it makes it difficult to have private conversations like this

480
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 4: is with a stranger at a reception, Like yeah, I mean,

481
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 4: like you don't know who you're talking Like you're a

482
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 4: Supreme Court justice, you don't know who you're talking to,

483
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 4: Like this is just a random person coming up to

484
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 4: you at a reception. You don't necessarily expect that they're

485
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 4: going to be recording you. Although today when everybody has

486
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: like four different devices that they can just press record on,

487
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 4: it's a completely different world than when the FBI would

488
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 4: have to, you know, Mike somebody up in a white

489
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 4: van and send them into like a mob hideout.

490
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 5: Literally tached at these hotel line Yeah.

491
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 4: Right, yes, now you just hit a button on your

492
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 4: watch or your phone and boom, you're you're hot.

493
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah.

494
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 7: I do see it.

495
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 5: But it's like, yeah, I mean crocodile tears for public

496
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 5: figures who you know are fairly well off and.

497
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 6: Have lots of power being recorded.

498
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 5: I think you know it is if you work in media,

499
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 5: you know that you lose something when you can't have

500
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 5: super candid conversations. You just you know, everyone is recording everything.

501
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 5: You feel like you live in a pentopticon anywhere in DC.

502
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 5: It's like any given restaurant is probably bugged. But at

503
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 5: the same time, yeah, like crocodile tears for people who

504
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 5: are in that pent opticon because they are disproportionately powerful.

505
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 5: I do think something gets lost in all of that,

506
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 5: but it's hardly a major issue.

507
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 6: With Martha and Alito.

508
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 5: I also think it just this all came in the middle.

509
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 5: Lauren Windsor, I think this is on June third, is

510
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 5: talking to her in the middle of the flag drama.

511
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 5: She sounded to me like she was desperate for a friend,

512
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 5: And I know that's not like a Newsy takeaway, but man,

513
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 5: it's sort of pulled up the heart strings a little

514
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 5: bit because you shouldn't be. You should never be. I mean,

515
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 5: it's just improper to be sort of pouring out your

516
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 5: heart to someone that you don't really know when you're

517
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 5: in such a powerful position and you have such powerful

518
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 5: insight and we can put a B two on the screen.

519
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 5: Democrats are latching onto this, people like Sheldon Whitehouse again

520
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 5: to tie it to spending bills and say we won't

521
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 5: fund the Supreme Court unless the justices all agreed to

522
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 5: these ethics standards. And by the way, I am fully

523
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 5: in favor of the ethnic standards. I think, you know,

524
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 5: that's fantastic. I think, you know, a lot of what

525
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 5: Clarence Thomas did should.

526
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 6: Have been disclosed.

527
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 5: Even though I'm personally a fan of Clarence Thomas, I

528
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 5: think that stuff needed to be disclosed. I think we

529
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 5: should have much stricter ethics to the Supreme Court. But

530
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 5: that's why, you know, to marthy Analino, maybe it's it

531
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 5: doesn't behoove you to talk to a stranger. And I think,

532
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 5: you know, in clearer headed times, she probably would have

533
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 5: known that, but she sounded sort of desperate.

534
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. And one thing I wonder, though, why

535
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 3: do they live in Chevy Chase.

536
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 6: Lives too.

537
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 4: I think he lives there too. You know, they've they've

538
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 4: I mean, they live wherever they want. They're surrounding themselves

539
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 4: with liberals for the most part, I thought they.

540
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 5: Lived in Virginia. I thought they lived out by like Fairfax.

541
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: I thought this was chevy Chase.

542
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 6: You might be right, Gallam might have been in chevy Chase.

543
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 4: Okay, well, but Katada does live there, he does, yes, Yeah,

544
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,239
Speaker 4: he's somewhere, Yeah, somewhere in that neighborhood. Anyway, let's move

545
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: let's move on to unless you add any final thoughts

546
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 4: on Martha Ann that you wanted to.

547
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 6: Share with us here, No, not at all.

548
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: I think think we covered that.

549
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 4: We can leave it right there, all right, So over

550
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 4: in the Middle East, so Hamas, we can put up

551
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 4: this Reuter's element here. Hamas has responded to the Biden

552
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 4: slash Israel proposal of the Worgan and we'll talk about

553
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 4: this in a moment.

554
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: Saying that it opens a broad.

555
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 4: Pathway was one of the quotes that they had, and

556
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 4: they said they had a couple of amendments to the

557
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 4: Israeli proposal, but in general said that they were now

558
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 4: simply negotiating details around the final terms of a cease

559
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 4: fire for this war. Now Israeli authorities have put a

560
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 4: different spin on it. You put up a rock cre

561
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 4: bed here at Oxios. Israeli officials telling Axios Israel received

562
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 4: Haimasa's response, Hamas rejected the proposal for a hostage deal,

563
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,479
Speaker 4: which was laid out by President Biden in his speech.

564
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 4: Hamas is saying that is not the case, that they're

565
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 4: not rejecting it, that they have a few quibbles around

566
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 4: the edges.

567
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 3: So let's let's move. Let's move through these here. Uh,

568
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: you can put up.

569
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 4: Blink and who landed in Qatar landing and culture today

570
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: pressing forward with this, with these negotiations. Here is Blincoln

571
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 4: yesterday laying out his position every on everybody else's position.

572
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 7: First, let me be very clear. Israel has accepted the proposal.

573
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: In fact, they were critical and putting it forward.

574
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 4: So the only party, no, that's that is what.

575
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 7: That is what the official.

576
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 5: Position of Israeli government in the Prime Minister.

577
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 4: So the only party that has not accepted, the only

578
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 4: party that's not said yes, it's Amas. Meanwhile, Nana, who

579
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 4: has called the proposal, the Israeli proposal a non starter

580
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 4: if it does not allow Israel to indefinitely continue the

581
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 4: war until Hamas is dismantled. But that's not what the

582
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 4: agreement itself says, and Israel has acknowledged that it did

583
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 4: send this agreement to hamas the agreement that Biden then

584
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 4: elevated to try to trap nann Yahoo into accepting it.

585
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 4: On CNN, there was an interesting exchange which shows that

586
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 4: what's going on here is Israel is willing to accept

587
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 4: the deal that they put forward, but that doesn't necessarily

588
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 4: mean they quote unquote support it. Some interesting linguistic gymnastics here.

589
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 4: Let's roll CNN from last night.

590
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 9: This deal is Israel's proposal. Why can't Netanyahu say out

591
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 9: right that he supports it?

592
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 10: Well, I don't know what he said to Secretary blink

593
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 10: In today when they met defected. The defect that I

594
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 10: wasn't instructed to speak out against the deal means that

595
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 10: we accept the deal?

596
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 6: Does it?

597
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 9: Wouldn't it mean that you support it if you could

598
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 9: come out and say you supported it.

599
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 10: But I'm saying here that we accept the deal. Again,

600
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 10: It's pretty much depends on the way it will be

601
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 10: interpreted by the negotiators, because.

602
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 9: You're saying we support it, but you're not just saying

603
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 9: unequivocally that Israel does support it.

604
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 10: Because the words are very important, because when you say that,

605
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 10: if the negotiations continues after six weeks, we need to

606
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 10: continue with the ceasefire so Haramas can exploit this clause

607
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 10: and continue with endless and meaningless negotiations. That means nothing. Obviously,

608
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 10: that wasn't the meaning of President Biden.

609
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 4: So that's the key difference there. That the proposal says

610
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 4: that after the first phase, which would include hostage exchanges,

611
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 4: elderly women others who are infirm and at risk would

612
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 4: be released in exchange for a significant number of Palestinian

613
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 4: hostages that are held in attention by Israel. After that,

614
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 4: there would be six weeks of negotiations toward a permanent ceasefire.

615
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 3: Although the Israeli proposal says.

616
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 4: Lasting cease fire, Hamas in its response, wants to change

617
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 4: that from lasting ceasefire to permanent ceasefire. But the key

618
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 4: point that the ambassador is making there is that they

619
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 4: if the negotiations are still ongoing in six weeks, the

620
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: agreement says that the ceasefire should continue as long as

621
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 4: the negotiations are making progress. Israel is saying that it

622
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 4: wants the right at that moment to relaunch its war.

623
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 4: And what some of Netnyahu's allies have said to him

624
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 4: in getting him to agree to this is like, is look,

625
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 4: you can restart the war after six weeks if you

626
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 4: want to, Like, no matter what this agree him, it says,

627
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 4: and they've argued that Hamas will do something that will

628
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 4: that will give you a green light to go ahead

629
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 4: and do that, and if not, you can also you

630
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 4: can always manufacture something so that he was zeroing in

631
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 4: on this kind of pause. This, this six week gap

632
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 4: between phase one and phase two seems to be the

633
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 4: central distinction here. Emily, We've seen this just kind of

634
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 4: head spinning game back and forth where you continue to

635
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 4: have Blincoln saying, no, the Israeli government supports this, and

636
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 4: you'll have Nenya right next to him practically he'say, no,

637
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 4: don't support this, don't support this.

638
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 3: He's like, no, definitely supports this.

639
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 4: Blincoln was at Blincoln met with nen Yahu yesterday and

640
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 4: he was asked, did net Yah who explicitly say that

641
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 4: he supported this? And Blincoln said yes, he did. Alynna

642
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 4: Thomas Greenfield, the UN ambassador I was asked, was asked

643
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 4: to explain this to say, you keep saying Israel supports this,

644
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 4: Israel keeps saying that they do not, Like, how do

645
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 4: you fill in that gap? And she said, look, I

646
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 4: can't you know, they have some whatever domestic political concerns

647
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 4: that they have that are leading them to say this. Basically,

648
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: you'll have to ask them about it. But in private,

649
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: in discussions with us, they have been very clear that

650
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 4: they accept this if let's let's use let's use his term.

651
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 4: And he makes a good point that the the the official,

652
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 4: the is early official there, that the fact that that

653
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: Yahoo did not instruct him to oppose it at the

654
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 4: u N despite the fact that previously Israeli ambassador in

655
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 4: the unit said that they would oppose it at the UN.

656
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: They don't get a.

657
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 4: Vote, but they said that they would oppose it because

658
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 4: it's a security council and they're not on the Security Council.

659
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 4: That alone tells you that they're willing to quote unquote

660
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 4: accept it.

661
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: So, uh, do you.

662
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 4: Think we've think we're getting to a place where we

663
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 4: actually sort of now understand what's going on here?

664
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 5: Yes, I agree with that, and I do think we

665
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 5: are because I think Reule is increasingly aware, as I

666
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 5: am sure Hamasa is that the difference between lasting and

667
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 5: permanent will ultimately be who can use that illusion as

668
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 5: a cudgel sooner or more effectively, because we all know

669
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 5: that this is not going to be a lasting or

670
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 5: permanent piece. And is the reporting that you just mentioned

671
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 5: about Israel in the negotiation sort of internally over there

672
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 5: says what we all know, this is not lasting, this

673
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 5: is not a permanent cease fire.

674
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 6: That's an illusion or maybe a delusion, But.

675
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 5: I don't even think there's anybody delusional enough to think

676
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 5: that that's the case. Meanwhile, though, lives hanging the balance

677
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 5: amidst our ability to at least agree to the illusion,

678
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 5: to at least agree in theory, to at least agree

679
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 5: on paper, and that's a very strange place to be.

680
00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 5: It's sort of obvious that we know that a sticking

681
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 5: point between lasting and permanent is really who can then

682
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 5: turn around and say a permanent or lasting ceasefire was

683
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 5: broken most effectively, because that's.

684
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 6: Inevitably what's going to happen.

685
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think that's what's being discussed right now,

686
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 5: that's what's being considered by both sides right now. And

687
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 5: I don't think that's necessarily categorically.

688
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 6: A bad thing, because it could.

689
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 5: Save lives, It could be a stop gap as a

690
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 5: better solution is worked out. Now I'm not optimistic less deadly,

691
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 5: less violent solutions not worked is worked.

692
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 6: Out, and I'm not optimistic that could happen.

693
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 5: But a pause and hostilities right now, there are lives

694
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 5: hanging in the balance. There's famine hanging in the balance.

695
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 5: So categorically, while it may be sort of frustrating for

696
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 5: people watching this play out, you know people really could

697
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 5: be saved and protected by this.

698
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 4: You also have a scenario where you could have them

699
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 4: agree to this six week pause, do a hostage exchange,

700
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 4: and then see the war kick back up again at

701
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 4: the end of July, right between the Republican and the

702
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 4: Democratic conventions. And a lot of Democrats are worried because

703
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 4: they know that Yahoo or they believe that net Nyah,

704
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: who prefers a Trump presidency. And so you basically, you know,

705
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 4: have your your political adversary, who is your geopolitical ally

706
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 4: has the ability to harm you, you know, in your

707
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 4: own domestic politics.

708
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: Now what his own what his own.

709
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 4: Domestic political situation would be like at that point is

710
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 4: not is not even clear. And on the Hamasade, you

711
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 4: certainly have elements that are opposed to a cease fire,

712
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 4: that believe in Wark was quoted in the washing Wall

713
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 4: Street Journal with some intercepted cable saying, we have Israel

714
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 4: exactly where we want them. You know that the that

715
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: they that that Israel continues committing atrocities, war crhymes, that

716
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 4: they continue to get international condemnation for that, and the

717
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,479
Speaker 4: and the isolation of Israel globally continues, which is which

718
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 4: is the Hamas goal. Now, Israel doesn't have to play

719
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 4: into Hamas's hands by continuing to commit atrocities and war

720
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 4: rhymes and and and and they have I think, well,

721
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 4: move this is put that aside. They don't have to,

722
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 4: but you know, sin War believes that they will continue

723
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 4: to do that. You know, as long as the war

724
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 4: is going on there, there will every couple of days

725
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: be something that shocks and horrifies the world, which then,

726
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 4: you know, further degrades Israel's position internationally, which puts then

727
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 4: what's puts Hamas in a position where they have some

728
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: advantage and not obtaining a cease fire, which that's and

729
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 4: that's according to sin War himself.

730
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 5: And you know, the Palestinian people are out of you

731
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 5: know that they feel like they're out of options, and

732
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 5: so you know, there was a poignant quote I forget

733
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 5: which publication ran with it this week after the hostage

734
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 5: rescue from a Palestinian who said, what what were they

735
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 5: doing in.

736
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 6: Relation to Hamas?

737
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 5: They knew that this hostage rescue was going to result in,

738
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 5: you know, the deads of dozens of not hundreds, which

739
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 5: it's looking like a very very high number of casualties,

740
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 5: and you know, without another sort of governing body, without

741
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 5: you know, someone else prosecuting the war on their side,

742
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 5: Hamas has a monopoly basically on their political expressions.

743
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 6: And so Hamas can.

744
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 5: Afford to lose the support of the Palestinian people to

745
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 5: a degree in a way that Israel cannot really afford

746
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 5: to lose the support completely of the United States certainly

747
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 5: and people around the world.

748
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 6: And that leads us to this next clip. The politics of.

749
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 5: This for Joe Biden are increasingly difficult in the middle

750
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 5: of an election systems, in the middle of an election cycle.

751
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 5: Let's take a look at this next clip of Biden

752
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 5: being hit with some protesters, verbally being hit with some

753
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 5: protesters just recently.

754
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no, no no no no no

755
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: no no no no.

756
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 11: No, folks, folks, it's okay. Look, take care innocent children.

757
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 7: Have been lost.

758
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 11: They make a point.

759
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 5: Come on now, So from yesterday at a Mom's Demanded

760
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 5: action gun event, by the way, just hours.

761
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 6: After the Hunter Biden gun conviction. Sort of an odd juxtaposition.

762
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 5: There, but right, this is going to follow him everywhere

763
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 5: and could get even more heated. I mean, we've seen

764
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 5: the encampments actually return to campuses UCLA. I think when

765
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 5: popped up again at Columbia. It's not going anywhere for Biden.

766
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 5: There's there's no question about it. And a peace deals

767
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 5: obviously in his interest. Donald Trump campaigned hard on the

768
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 5: abracamp Donald Trump is campaigning hard on the Abraham Accords,

769
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 5: so well, you know, Biden obviously wants to have something

770
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 5: like that in his quiver.

771
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, And his response there, I thought was noteworthy in

772
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 4: the sense that is much different than it had been

773
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: in the past. Like in the past when he has

774
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 4: gotten protested, he would just kind of thunder through and

775
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 4: he would he would urge on the chance of four

776
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 4: more years, and then he would say, you know, I

777
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 4: am steadfast support of Israel.

778
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 3: Israel has a right to defend herself.

779
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 4: And instead this time he said he was trying to

780
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 4: stop the chance of four more years and to say no,

781
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 4: listen the protesters, they make a point.

782
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: A lot of children.

783
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 4: He said he had to do the passive voice, but

784
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 4: I think and I think he tried to say they

785
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: make a fair point. It came out as they make

786
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 4: a point. But I think he was trying to sympathize

787
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,959
Speaker 4: with the protesters there, and I think that that reflects

788
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 4: his shift in how he's viewing this and how like

789
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 4: he is really now trying to force a cease fire

790
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 4: deal onto the two parties. It's funny that he has

791
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 4: kind of just willed the Yahoo government into accepting its

792
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 4: own proposal that they kind of reluctantly put forward, will

793
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 4: you know, willing it into up being by putting it

794
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 4: forward and then insisting against all of the Israeli opposition

795
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 4: that they support it.

796
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 3: It'd be interesting if he just.

797
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 4: Took the same approach to Maas Tamas, like, now, we

798
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 4: don't support this as it's written, we have some amendments,

799
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 4: and just you just send blinkoln out there to say no,

800
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 4: Hamas told us they support it. That'd be an interesting

801
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 4: new way of doing diplomacy, if you just ignored what

802
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 4: people said and just assert what the what the reality

803
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 4: is and just kind of.

804
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 3: That sort of I kind of feel.

805
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 6: Like we've seen that and it's this again.

806
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 5: We've talked about this so many times, the uneven nature

807
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 5: of having one major component or one major party to

808
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 5: this war before two state solution, and the other major

809
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 5: party to this war, the most major party to this

810
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 5: war Israel, being in favor of but one state solution. Uh,

811
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 5: you know, sort of bridging that gap between the two

812
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 5: most consequential governments is leading to some predictably bizarre results.

813
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 5: I'm glad you said that, though Ryan Beings I agree.

814
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 6: I had a similar reaction.

815
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 5: I thought that was politically, I'm just speaking about Joe

816
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 5: Biden's performance as a politician, which has you know, nose

817
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 5: dived in recent years. That was vintage Biden. That was

818
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 5: the version of Joe Biden that you know people thought

819
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 5: maybe had a shot in two thousand and eight, and

820
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 5: actually back years before that too.

821
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 6: You know, he does have this.

822
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 5: Reflex to offer compassion in a way that is sort

823
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 5: of casual, relatable, believable, and I think it was wise

824
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 5: of him to do that in the moment that he

825
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 5: had those protests. Now, politically, of course, it was wise

826
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 5: of him because this isn't going anywhere, will follow him,

827
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 5: literally follow him throughout the rest of the campaign, and

828
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 5: you can't just ignore it.

829
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 4: And I think that's a good point because the American

830
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 4: public knowing and the global public knowing that one of

831
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 4: the only things if you only know one thing about

832
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 4: Joe Biden, you know that he has this incredible ability

833
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 4: to empathize and to feel your pain, and to know

834
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 4: that about him, and then to see him show so

835
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 4: little compassion for the plight of people in Gaza over

836
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 4: the past eight months up until that clip, basically I

837
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 4: think made it hit that much harder for so many

838
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 4: people because people were like, we know that, we know

839
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 4: that you do know how to show compassion, we know

840
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 4: that you do understand what this loss is like. And

841
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 4: for you to not be willing to go anywhere near

842
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 4: showing that compassion, I think just hit much deeper. Speaking

843
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 4: of people not being able to go anywhere. Jake Sullivan,

844
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 4: who was getting protested at his own row house here

845
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 4: in DC this morning, also got hit by protesters at

846
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 4: an event yesterday.

847
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 3: We can roll this.

848
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 6: We know, Jake Sullivan, you are a war criminal.

849
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 5: Fifteen thousand people, fifteen thousand him dead.

850
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: It's not self event.

851
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 6: Jake Sullivan, you are a war criminal.

852
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 7: Jake Sullivan, You're a war criminal.

853
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 6: Scho fifty.

854
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 3: Now the children dead and not self defense.

855
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 6: Fifteen thousand campers dead, it's not self defense. Fifteen dollar

856
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 6: children dead, it's not defense.

857
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 4: And the context for these ceasefire talks down in the

858
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 4: south is really what's going on in the north, if

859
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 4: we can put up C seven here. So yesterday, in

860
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 4: an air strike, Israel killed a top Hesbela commander, Abu Talb.

861
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 4: Hesbela responded with one of its most furious assaults on

862
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 4: Israel since the kind of low level war between the

863
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 4: two of them began after October seventh.

864
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 3: And Hesbela has had.

865
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 4: A worrying amount of effect in being able to combat

866
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 4: Israel's air superiority. From the Israeli perspective, They've knocked out

867
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 4: millions of dollars worth of israel drones or American drones,

868
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 4: I should say, from from the sky. UH even managed

869
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 4: to manage to hit an iron dome launch system, which

870
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 4: is UH, which is which is kind of shocking to

871
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 4: kind of this Uh.

872
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 3: Israeli political system.

873
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 4: UH and you know, has much a much more serious

874
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 4: arsenal and ability to kind of re arm than Hamas

875
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 4: like that. There's just no question inside Israel, all of

876
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 4: the attention is pivoting towards the north. There are about

877
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 4: one hundred thousand plus Israelis who have evacuated from areas

878
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 4: in the in the north, which is created which is

879
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 4: creating a huge kind of housing crisis inside Israel, coupled

880
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 4: with the evacuations of so many people from the South

881
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 4: as well. Uh and uh, there's this real push to

882
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 4: move this low level war to a much higher level

883
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 4: war with with Lebanon. But it's not clear that you know,

884
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 4: Israel has the capacities to do what it thinks it

885
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 4: needs to do in that area.

886
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 6: And you know, this is really zooming out.

887
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 5: But just as you were talking, I'm thinking about what's

888
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 5: happening right now people. There was a tweet was like,

889
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 5: but you didn't have Cuban missile crisis two point zero

890
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 5: on your Bengo card for twenty twenty four and got

891
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 5: to be careful and not to you know, give the

892
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 5: warmongers too much fodder. But it's true with that Russian ships,

893
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 5: I mean, their own by their own admission, Russian navy

894
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 5: flotilla has been making this way around the world.

895
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 6: They said to raise the flag. Basically, that's what Russian

896
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 6: media has said.

897
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 5: And what we know now is that US warships have

898
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 5: followed those Russian ships. We know obviously that Russia, Cuba,

899
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 5: ron Venezuela. We could talk about why, but we know

900
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 5: that there are alliances.

901
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 6: You throw China into the mix.

902
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 5: We know that there's another front or there's another hot

903
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 5: war in Ukraine right now. Basically, what I think makes

904
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 5: sense about zooming out here is to underline how fragile

905
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 5: the ecosystem is right now, because it does feel like

906
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 5: we've talked about what it looked like in the run

907
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 5: up to World War One, and you know, does anyone

908
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 5: know that a world war starts when it starts? You know,

909
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 5: usually not, but they're really this is really scary times

910
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 5: because I think the Sergio political ecosystem is at its

911
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 5: most fragile point in a long time.

912
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 4: Right And to underline your point, this is after the

913
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 4: US greenlit Ukraine using US weapons to strike into some

914
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 4: targets inside Russia.

915
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: Now you've got these this Russia flotilla.

916
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 4: Down by southeast southeastern United States, and you know the

917
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 4: US responding. If you add a let's say, a carpet

918
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 4: bombing or a major bombing of Beirut to that, and

919
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 4: how does how does it run respond to that? Yeah, uh,

920
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 4: it's it's it's dark. Let's move back to the United

921
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 4: States here. So Sean Fain, who has kind of rocketed

922
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 4: to really the kind of labor stardom after the stand

923
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 4: up strike that the UAW led against the Big three

924
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 4: automakers led to record contracts, that has led to significant

925
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 4: amounts of organizing non union plants, including electric vehicles around

926
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 4: the country. Really given a jolt to the labor movement

927
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 4: in the United States that it hadn't had in a

928
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 4: long time? Is Tesla, Yeah, exactly is now facing problems

929
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 4: from Neil Barofsky, who is the monitor appointed by the

930
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 4: Department of Justice to kind of root out corruption in

931
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 4: the old ua W.

932
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 3: Let's put up this and we can back this up here.

933
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 4: But so put up this element here, So u a

934
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 4: W President Sean Fain under investigation by federal watchdog. Court

935
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 4: filing reveals So the court the filing was entered and

936
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 4: entered by Neil Rovsky, who is the monitor. So for

937
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 4: people who don't know the backstory here, the only reason

938
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 4: that Sean Fain is president of the UAW is because

939
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, the Department of Justice reached a consent

940
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 4: decree with a very corrupt United Auto Workers. Two of

941
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 4: its presidents had been thrown in prison. Some Auto executives

942
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 4: had also been prosecuted. There was just an enormous amount

943
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 4: of bribery and corruption involved in the old UAW and

944
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 4: part of the consent decree which is supposed to last

945
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 4: for six years up till twenty twenty six, although it

946
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 4: can be ended earlier if the kind of monitor says, like,

947
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 4: all right, things are going in the right direction here.

948
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 4: One of the things that they put in the consent

949
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 4: decree was that the UAW would have direct elections. And

950
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 4: that was a that was a reform that union members

951
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 4: had been fighting for for a very long time. It

952
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 4: was a it was a true moment of the Department

953
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 4: of Justice actually using its actually using its power for good.

954
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 4: Like they actually did reform this union in a positive way.

955
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 3: The result was Sean Fain winning this election.

956
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 4: Now, after Sean Fain came into power, there were some

957
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 4: kind of turf wars inside and out of those turf wars,

958
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 4: you now are seeing the elements of this investigation. Barofsky

959
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 4: is claiming that Fain kind of improperly retaliated against a

960
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 4: vice president who he fired because Faine has said publicly

961
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 4: he didn't think that this vice president was doing a

962
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 4: good enough job pushing the Stilantis organizing. That stillance was

963
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 4: kind of walking all over the union workers there, and

964
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 4: so he wanted somebody in there who was tougher. Meanwhile,

965
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 4: he was also tangling with the secretary treasurer, who he

966
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 4: said was illegitimately holding back funds for organizing efforts that

967
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 4: were important to his strategy. And so you know, from

968
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 4: the perspective of the union, you know, one one person,

969
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 4: one vote, they elected Seawan fainn Shaan. Fain wanted to

970
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 4: implement a strategy. The secretary treasurer was getting in the

971
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 4: way of that strategy, and so you know, he used

972
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 4: his authority as president to insist that they push ahead

973
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 4: with that strategy. This is not there's no accusation here

974
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 4: of any personal enrichment or any type of corruption. This

975
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 4: is this is the Neil Borrowski, the monitor kind of

976
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 4: just getting in in the middle of the of basically

977
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 4: what is an internal struggle inside an organization. The kind

978
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 4: of thing that happens at any organization, particularly one that's

979
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 4: trying to be kind of revolutionized from within by somebody

980
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 4: like like Sean Fain. Interestingly, also epily, the UAW has

981
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 4: to pay for this monitor. So if you look at

982
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,479
Speaker 4: the uaw's public silings, yeah, I think they paid five

983
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 4: million dollar or more than five million dollars to like

984
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 4: big shoe law what do you call white shoe, white whatever,

985
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 4: Big big law like big firms are making millions of

986
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 4: dollars doing private work for this DOJ monitor. And so

987
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 4: now the monitor is saying that they want something like

988
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 4: one hundred thousand emails from Seawan Fain and he's only

989
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 4: given two thousand, is what was in the filing. If

990
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 4: they give over those hundred thousand, like, they're going to

991
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 4: end up spending millions and millions of their members dues

992
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 4: so that these lawyers can kind of go through these

993
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 4: emails to try to find something that they can then

994
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 4: go at them with. So that's that's what's going on

995
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 4: here at the UAW.

996
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 5: The stupid grin on my face is because this is similar.

997
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 6: In a way.

998
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 5: It's such a different case, but it reminds me a

999
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 5: little bit of what's on the docket with the Chevron

1000
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,280
Speaker 5: case that's about to be decided by the Supreme Court,

1001
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 5: which was EPA making a decision on its own that

1002
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 5: lobster fishermen off the coast of I think it's main

1003
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 5: have to pay these monitors to comply with the EPA's regulations,

1004
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 5: and the ap SERS made that decision without going through

1005
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 5: Congress or putting it in any legislation it was. I

1006
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 5: find it amusing because I do agree completely that when

1007
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 5: the DOJ is able to sort of get away with

1008
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 5: investigations that demand huge compliance resources and efforts disproportionate to

1009
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 5: the importance of the of the investigation, it's it's genuinely problematic.

1010
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 6: And in this case, I wonder, Ryan, I'm curious.

1011
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 5: If there's a hair trigger because the uaw's corruption before

1012
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 5: Fane the sort of.

1013
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 6: Revolution to use the word that you used, that revolution.

1014
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 5: That he is sort of wrought inside of the UAW.

1015
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 5: The reason there has to be because it was coming

1016
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 5: from a place that needed a revolution for the better.

1017
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 5: It was in the shadow of corruption, and that was

1018
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:07,240
Speaker 5: obviously very.

1019
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 6: Damaging to the union movement.

1020
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 5: And I'm just curious because I'm trying to wrap my

1021
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 5: head around why the Biden DOJ would bite on this,

1022
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 5: is it that they're on a hair trigger. They're almost

1023
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 5: trying to they think that maybe they're protecting the.

1024
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:22,280
Speaker 6: UAW from itself.

1025
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 5: Is an internal politics, you know people people are maybe

1026
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 5: faint as controversial in ways privately with different people involved,

1027
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 5: different players, Like is there any internal drama? Basically, explain

1028
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 5: this to me, like what the motivation from the Biden

1029
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 5: DOJ might be in this way?

1030
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 7: I think?

1031
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 4: So the key point here is Borowsky is a fully

1032
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 4: independent monitor. And so this is this is a situation

1033
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 4: where you get a monitor in place, like when you

1034
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 4: get so you had ken Starr, for instance, as the

1035
00:55:55,719 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 4: independent Council under Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton couldn't do any

1036
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 4: anything about ken Starr, like once once that ken Starr

1037
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 4: Independent Council situation was set up, like that's what it

1038
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 4: was now politically, he could have tried to just get

1039
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 4: rid of the special Council perhaps, but then then he'd

1040
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 4: get impeached for that that those are political issues. But

1041
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 4: there's no there's no directive that the DOJ or the

1042
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 4: White House can give to that type of a special council.

1043
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 4: The monitor is a similar situation in which you know

1044
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 4: he's been set up as this independent watchdog. Barofsky was

1045
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 4: famously one of the kind of Wall Street watchdogs and

1046
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 4: angered a lot of people on Wall Street back then

1047
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 4: that you know, so he was just going after the

1048
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 4: bad guys then, always he was.

1049
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 6: He was the IG right after two thousand.

1050
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 3: And eight, Right, that's right.

1051
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 6: David Saroda's podcast.

1052
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 5: I think it's called Meltdown and Bosky factors very heavily

1053
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 5: and it's fantastic lism.

1054
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1055
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 4: I remember Barofsky from the reporting around the the Meltdown

1056
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 4: at the time, and so he at the time he

1057
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 4: was independent. He's independent now, so the d o J.

1058
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 4: So it's not clear what exactly the DJ could do,

1059
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 4: you know, if it wanted to, Like what's going on?

1060
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 4: In other words, is there something going on between Barofsky

1061
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 4: and Seawan Faine Borowski and the U A W. And

1062
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 4: it's new this is a this is a new flare

1063
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 4: up and it's post or organizing behind the Big three

1064
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 4: record contract. And he's not making any allegations of corruption.

1065
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 4: So we need to do some more reporting to figure

1066
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 4: out what happened, Like what's going on here, because clearly

1067
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 4: something happened, you know, Sean Fain is known as somebody

1068
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 4: with sharp elbows, that's for sure. It's not somebody that's

1069
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 4: going to be pushed around. Borowsky, too, is not something

1070
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 4: somebody's going to be pushed around. So whatever whatever happened

1071
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 4: between them and between him and the UAW, you could

1072
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 4: imagine it escalating fairly quickly, just given the kind of

1073
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 4: personalities involved. But I think some some more reporting is

1074
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 4: in order and hopefully we'll be able to come back

1075
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 4: and figure out what it was that sparked this, because

1076
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,919
Speaker 4: it's according to Barrowski, it's not corruption. You know, he's

1077
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 4: demanding one hundred thousand plus emails. Sean Faine is saying

1078
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 4: that's crazy, like that's too many, Like what no, like

1079
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 4: your draint, You're you're bleeding this union for millions of

1080
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 4: dollars for these lawyers. And so unless they can figure

1081
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 4: something out now, the threat is the threat that Browsky

1082
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 4: has is that the dj could take over the UAW,

1083
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 4: Like that's within their authority under the consent decree, but

1084
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 4: politically could can you imagine them trying to get away

1085
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 4: with that? Like the first major union to actually deliver

1086
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 4: huge gains for its workers is then going to be

1087
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 4: taken over by the Biden administration. That insane's even contemplate,

1088
00:58:58,400 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 4: but that is.

1089
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 5: Biden administration that's allied itself with Sean.

1090
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 3: Fain, right exactly.

1091
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, so it's a strange situation.

1092
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, Biden went to the picket line. First president

1093
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 4: in history to join a picket line. When you speak

1094
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 4: with Sean.

1095
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 5: Fain, I know you're used to labor stories not getting

1096
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 5: a lot of coverage in corporate media, but even so,

1097
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 5: I think this story has really been flying under the radar.

1098
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 6: There's been so little coverage.

1099
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 5: It sort of broke yesterday, but really no focus on it,

1100
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 5: and that seems wildly disproportionate to its importance, obviously, given

1101
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 5: Fayne's central role in this wave of the labor movement

1102
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 5: right now.

1103
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and going forward, you know, he has set the

1104
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 4: next contract expiration for twenty twenty eight, and he's encouraging

1105
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 4: other unions around the country to also set their contracts

1106
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 4: to expire on the same date in twenty twenty eight,

1107
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,959
Speaker 4: working toward not a total general strike, but working toward

1108
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 4: a mass kind of strike coinciding at the same on

1109
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 4: the same day in a in the next presidential cycle.

1110
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 4: So he is clearly calling his shot, and he's he's

1111
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 4: coming for the bosses in a major way.

1112
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 3: And and does this is this is Borowski?

1113
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 4: What is Barowski doing here? It's it's a it's a

1114
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 4: it's an open question that we're going to try to

1115
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 4: figure out.

1116
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 6: A lot more to come on that.

1117
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 5: Let's move on to Fox News editing part of Donald

1118
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 5: Trump's answer about whether he would release files related to

1119
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 5: Jeffrey Epstein out of an interview that aired on Fox

1120
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 5: and Friends earlier this week. Fox News then aired the

1121
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 5: entire interview with Trump without ostensibly without much editing on

1122
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 5: I think it was Will Kaine's podcast that was uploaded

1123
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 5: to YouTube, and people noticed that Trump's answer on Epstein

1124
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 5: was cut in a fairly interesting way. Now, before we

1125
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 5: rule the clip, I will say it's obviously common practice

1126
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 5: to splice up long interviews. So you might see a

1127
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 5: ten minute package on sixty minutes, for example, and then

1128
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 5: actually it was twenty minutes.

1129
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, it was two hours of talking.

1130
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 5: You know, that gets condensed into a ten minute package,

1131
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 5: or into a two minute package for that matter.

1132
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 6: So there's a lot of splicing.

1133
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 5: There's a lot of chopping that's done in the editing process.

1134
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 5: Whenever you have a big sit down interview on a

1135
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 5: major news network.

1136
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 6: That's common practice.

1137
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 5: But take a listen to the way in which Donald

1138
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 5: Trump answered this Epstein question. The way that it was

1139
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 5: originally cut off was just him saying, yeah, I'll, you know,

1140
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 5: release the files. Listen to what he says after that.

1141
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 5: Let's run this clip. This is E two from Fox News.

1142
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 4: Some people think that one way to build trust is

1143
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 4: to declassify things that everyone's talking about it.

1144
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 7: I mean, you've talked earlier.

1145
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 6: I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist.

1146
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 7: So if you were president, would.

1147
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 12: You declassify you can answer yes or notice.

1148
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 6: Would you declassify the.

1149
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 7: Nine to eleven files?

1150
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1151
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 12: Would you declassify JFK files, Yeah.

1152
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 7: Which I did. I did a lot of it.

1153
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 6: Would you declassify the Epstein files?

1154
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 12: Yeah?

1155
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would, all right, I guess I would. I

1156
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: think that less so because you know, you don't know,

1157
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 1: you don't want to affect people's lives of it's phony

1158
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 1: stuff in there, because there's a lot of phony stuff

1159
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: with that whole world. But I think I would, or

1160
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: at least.

1161
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 7: Do you think that would restore trust?

1162
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 6: Help restore trust?

1163
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 1: I don't know about Epstein so much as I do

1164
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: the other there's certainly about the way he died. It

1165
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: would be interesting to find out what happened there, because

1166
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 1: that was a weird situation and the cameras didn't happen

1167
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: to be working, et cetera, et cetera. But you'd go

1168
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: a long way toward that one the other stuff.

1169
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 7: I would.

1170
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 5: So that originally aired on Fox and Friends, but was

1171
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 5: cut off right when Donald Trump said yeah, I would,

1172
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 5: and then everything else he said was a major backtrack.

1173
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 5: By the way, it's incredibly significant news anytime Donald Trump

1174
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 5: talks about jeff rep scene, anytime anyone in a position

1175
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 5: of power talks about Jeffrey Epstein. For what it's worth

1176
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 5: for a news outlet, I think actually to get Donald

1177
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 5: Trump talking like that about Jeffrey Epstein is a pretty

1178
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 5: big story. So again, they cut that off. We can

1179
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 5: put e one up on the screen. Sorry for going

1180
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 5: out of order here, but they did cut that off,

1181
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 5: and some people in media noticed it. I want to

1182
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 5: highlight another part of what he said. I guess I would.

1183
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 6: I think that less so because you don't know.

1184
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 5: You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony

1185
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 5: stuff in there, because it's a lot of phony stuff

1186
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 5: with that whole world.

1187
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 6: But I think I would.

1188
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 5: I don't know about Epstein so much as I do

1189
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 5: the others, certainly about the way he died, it'd be

1190
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 5: interesting to find out, but yeah, I'd go a long way.

1191
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 6: Toward that one.

1192
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 5: So sort of a typical Trump answer. You don't totally

1193
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 5: know what it means. It's almost effectively hard to make out.

1194
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 5: But the editing, I think where you're just going rapid

1195
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 5: fire through JFK. Yeah, I already did a lot of it,

1196
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 5: and you get to Epstein would and immediately, well, you know,

1197
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 5: there's a lot of phony stuff, you.

1198
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 6: Know, less so with Epstein than others.

1199
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 12: Right.

1200
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 5: Obviously Epstein was sort of in that Palm Beach world.

1201
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 5: Obviously there's that famous footage of him with Donald Trump

1202
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 5: kind of partying at mar Alago. Some people have claimed

1203
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 5: that there was recruitment happening at Mar a Lago of

1204
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 5: girls who were sex trafficked essentially, so I think it's

1205
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 5: a fairly significant I think it was a great question

1206
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 5: from Rachel Campbell.

1207
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 6: Steffie what happened here? Is this? Is this you know

1208
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 6: in a way?

1209
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 5: Is this a defense of Fox, saying we ended up

1210
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 5: putting up the whole thing.

1211
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 6: There was nothing to hide.

1212
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 5: Or is it them sort of being caught editing it

1213
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 5: by later uploading the whole thing, maybe not realizing that

1214
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 5: people would notice the discrepancy.

1215
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I think they got caught. I think, but

1216
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 4: I think, you know, different people made different decisions. I

1217
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 4: don't think it was you know, from the top. What

1218
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 4: we're going to do is we're going to edit this

1219
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 4: to make it palatable for our seniors who watch on Fox,

1220
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 4: and then we're going to let the whole part go

1221
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 4: out on Will Kaine's podcasts. I don't think they exactly

1222
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 4: did it that way, but a system is what it does.

1223
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 4: And you know, the the the interests of the producers

1224
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 4: that that cut that clip or clear like they wanted,

1225
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 4: Like Trump says, yes, but you know, I think you

1226
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 4: could even just if it's you can't say it's a

1227
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 4: time question because you just say but less so on

1228
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 4: that one. Like at least if you put the but

1229
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 4: less so on that one, you've at least let the

1230
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 4: viewers know, and you've and you've let them see the

1231
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 4: beginning of the backtracking and you can see where it's

1232
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 4: going from there because whenever if you know, you know

1233
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 4: what Trump's going to.

1234
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 3: Do, that in other words, he's not gonna do anything. Uh.

1235
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 3: And that was clear.

1236
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 4: You didn't need the other minute of rambling excuses about

1237
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 4: why he's not going to do anything.

1238
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 7: He's not.

1239
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 4: H But yeah, so I think they wanted to I

1240
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 4: wouldn't think they wanted to keep that from the audience.

1241
01:05:58,280 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 4: There's no other way of, uh.

1242
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 3: Of understanding that.

1243
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 4: But I think there must be different kind of editorial

1244
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 4: processes that that play out on at different levels, Like

1245
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 4: you can't completely keep an interview out from say a

1246
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 4: podcast or whatever. And then to your point, there's that

1247
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 4: there's that great quote from great isn't the word? There's

1248
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 4: a quote from Trump and the Vanity Fair article that

1249
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 4: people can find where he's asked about Jeffrey Epstein. He says, Jeffrey,

1250
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 4: Jeffrey likes him young, likes him pretty, and likes him

1251
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 4: young or something like that, and you know he really

1252
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 4: likes to have a good time. You can even hear

1253
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 4: Trump kind of dictating the quote to his secretary like

1254
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 4: it's that it's it's it's a very Trump and dict

1255
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 4: dictated type of quote.

1256
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: Uh.

1257
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 4: And you're like oh, okay, this Trump knew. Trump knew

1258
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 4: what was going on here, and so it gives credence

1259
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 4: to all the other stuff that you hear about mar

1260
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 4: A Lago and the recruitment.

1261
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 6: And there's that quote.

1262
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 5: And there's also another thing that turned a lot of

1263
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 5: people's heads. You'll remember this Ryan when he said he

1264
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 5: was asked about Gaillen Maxwell and said something to the

1265
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 5: extent of I just wish her well.

1266
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 6: I think that was the quote, I just wish her well.

1267
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 5: Which again, it sort of gives you pause when you

1268
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 5: look at someone like Jeffrey Epstein, who reporting not suggests,

1269
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 5: but reporting really has documented, had links to Masad and

1270
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 5: Gillien Maxwell as well, through her father or through other channels,

1271
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 5: was collecting videotapes, was putting other powerful people in extremely

1272
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 5: compromising positions potentially to extract policy favors out of it.

1273
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 5: On behalf of other people, you know, Donald Trump hedging

1274
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 5: on that one compared to others is obviously, I think,

1275
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 5: a very significant bit.

1276
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,439
Speaker 6: And for a news outlet, this is a big deal.

1277
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 5: I mean, everyone watches the cut of an interview with

1278
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 5: the President. I know he's been on Fox many times,

1279
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 5: but anytime you get to sit down interview with the president.

1280
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 5: Executives are watching that cut before it goes to air.

1281
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 5: It's very sensitive on the corporate level. So yeah, I

1282
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 5: agree with you. I think people made different editorial decisions.

1283
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 5: The Will Kine radio show aired the whole thing, and

1284
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 5: good for them for airing the whole thing without cutting

1285
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 5: it up. But obviously more eyeballs were on the Fox

1286
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 5: and Friends sit down, right, you know, when it originally aired.

1287
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:23,560
Speaker 6: So it does seem like there was something intentional.

1288
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 3: Yep, I think so.

1289
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 4: And so I think, in other words, neither president, neither

1290
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 4: candidate running for president now is going to give us

1291
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 4: anything more when it comes to Epstein, and he said,

1292
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 4: you know, maybe maybe something on how he died or

1293
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 4: whatever he said there. He died while Trump was president.

1294
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 3: That's right, let's not forget that, although.

1295
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 5: It's also the Trump You know why I thought that

1296
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 5: was interesting just quickly while you said that, because that's

1297
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 5: something I thought about too, is he felt like the

1298
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 5: intelligence agencies were out of his control, certain spun out

1299
01:08:57,560 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 5: of his control, And so it was fascinating to me

1300
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 5: that that was the one thing Trump said he would

1301
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 5: want to know more about and would release publicly, is

1302
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 5: how he died because you know, obviously, if you're you're

1303
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,680
Speaker 5: someone that could potentially be compromised by Epstein, and.

1304
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 6: Who knows if he would. I mean, I don't know.

1305
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 5: That Trump is compromised by Epstein because of the fact

1306
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 5: that he publicly said, you know, Jeffrey les Young, but

1307
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:25,559
Speaker 5: there's some reason to have questions about it. So anyway,

1308
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 5: all that is to say good and.

1309
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 4: Not just that, Yeah, his his labor secretary, Alexander Costa. Yes,

1310
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 4: it was the US attorney who cut the incredibly sweet

1311
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:42,919
Speaker 4: deal with Epstein and who was who has who basically

1312
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 4: was said like, yeah, I was told he had intel

1313
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 4: ties and told to like, you know, make it basically

1314
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 4: make this go away, and then he's rewarded as Trump's

1315
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 4: it's the labor secretary, so he could he could start

1316
01:09:56,520 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 4: there if he wanted to, you know, probe that a

1317
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 4: little bit. Just go ask his own labor secretary what happened.

1318
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 6: Good suggestion to go talk to Wacosta.

1319
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 3: You said you heard this. Who'd you hear it from?

1320
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 6: Yeah? No, I agree.

1321
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 5: Well, Ryan, our next guest, just a very big interview,

1322
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 5: and I'm so grateful to you for setting it up

1323
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 5: and your coverage of Pakistan has just been fantastic, so

1324
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,880
Speaker 5: I'm looking forward to having Shabbas Gill join the show next.

1325
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 3: All right, stick around for that.

1326
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:35,520
Speaker 4: The US backed Pakistani government is now abducting and arresting

1327
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:39,560
Speaker 4: family members of political activists who's only involvement in politics

1328
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 4: is that they are related to people who are here

1329
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 4: in the West, the United States, Canada or elsewhere and

1330
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,680
Speaker 4: are lobbying United States government in order to pressure Pakistan

1331
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 4: to respect human rights over in Pakistan. We put up

1332
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 4: this first element here. This is Mashwan Azar says that

1333
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 4: is the first time in the history of Pakist stand

1334
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 4: that brothers, mothers, sisters, wives of political activists are being harassed,

1335
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 4: threatened and abducted. Uh The statement from PCI Canada ads,

1336
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:12,879
Speaker 4: this vile and cowardly regime has sunk to the lowest

1337
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 4: depths of depravity. Instead of addressing legitimate political dissent, these

1338
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 4: spineless tyrants target innocent families, crossing every conceivable line of

1339
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:25,559
Speaker 4: decency and humanity. To talk more about this, we're going

1340
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 4: to be joined now by doctor Shabbaz Gil, who was

1341
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 4: the chief of staff to former Prime Minister Imran Khan

1342
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 4: in Pakistan and is now his media advisor here in

1343
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 4: the United States. Uh, doctor Gil, thank you so much

1344
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 4: for joining us.

1345
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 7: Thank you Rian for having me.

1346
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 4: And before before we get into the broader political context here,

1347
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 4: you update us on your own personal situation. You were,

1348
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 4: you know, how is your brother? Have you heard from

1349
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 4: him since he was abducted just days ago?

1350
01:11:58,600 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 7: Right, no Vaya votes.

1351
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 12: Actually between the night of eighth and ninth of you

1352
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,439
Speaker 12: he was abrected from Lahore.

1353
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,680
Speaker 7: We do not know about his whereabouts.

1354
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 12: His cell phones are completely off, his vehicle disappeared, and

1355
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 12: of course he disappeared.

1356
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:21,799
Speaker 7: Nobody knows who took him.

1357
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 12: Away where they actually abducted him, Like he was leaving

1358
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 12: from his home to Islamabad, another city and during this

1359
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 12: journey they abducted him. So this is a regular practice

1360
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 12: right now actually to silence people. That has been done

1361
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 12: and we have never seen as you are already read

1362
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 12: the statement of Azarmashwani that this is the first time

1363
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 12: we are witnessing in Pakistan that any regime is going

1364
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:54,880
Speaker 12: this far, that they are.

1365
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 7: Actually attacking your families.

1366
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:01,759
Speaker 12: I've before this disappeared, I've been threatened in US.

1367
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:03,800
Speaker 7: I've been conveyed through.

1368
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 12: Middlemen, through intermediaries that I have to be silenced. I

1369
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 12: have to stop my activities which I'm doing for democracy,

1370
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 12: freedom of speech, rule of law in Pakistan, especially the

1371
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 12: release of Imran Khan and other women in the jail.

1372
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 12: I was meeting US lawmakers, you know that I had

1373
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 12: several meetings with the other watchdogs and other people. And

1374
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 12: that was actually and I was protesting, of course in

1375
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 12: different places, organizing protests with the help of my party

1376
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,840
Speaker 12: people here in the US. And the last couple of

1377
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 12: weeks I was in Europe, in Denmark, Belgium, Switzerland, and

1378
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 12: I was planning to go again into several countries of Europe.

1379
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 12: And I think those are the things which triggered at once.

1380
01:13:53,160 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 12: Are these are the activities they want to they are

1381
01:13:57,200 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 12: unhappy with me.

1382
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 7: And then of course my daily.

1383
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 12: Vlog where I update people about the current situation in Pakistan,

1384
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 12: political situation, what is happening. So it is it is

1385
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 12: in a way, it's against the law here in the

1386
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:15,800
Speaker 12: US that they are harming my family and then blackmailing

1387
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 12: me while I'm here in the US that what I

1388
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 12: should do and what should I not do? So, uh,

1389
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 12: that is the situation right now.

1390
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:27,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you yourself are obviously a very prominent critic

1391
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 4: of the government. Your your show that you mentioned is

1392
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 4: you know, watched by millions of people, so there's no

1393
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:37,599
Speaker 4: secret about what your position is. But what is your

1394
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 4: brother's involvement in politics at all?

1395
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 3: If at all, I.

1396
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 12: Don't think so, even if he has any social media account,

1397
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 12: like she never commented on politics. He has nothing to

1398
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 12: do on politics. He's a regular person who's spending his

1399
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 12: life is his wife and two sons. One of his

1400
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,799
Speaker 12: sons is very young and very attached to his father,

1401
01:15:05,160 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 12: like five or six years old. So he's very very

1402
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:14,839
Speaker 12: regular Pakistani person who's spending his life with his family

1403
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 12: and working day to day for his life. That's it,

1404
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 12: Like nothing to do with the politics. He never even

1405
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 12: came to meet me while I was in politics in

1406
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 12: Pakistan to my political office, like never came across Like

1407
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 12: you know, families sometimes come to you official dinners and

1408
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,760
Speaker 12: other places receptions where you invite your family life. He never,

1409
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:40,600
Speaker 12: he never came across to politics ever, to my politics

1410
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 12: or any political activity per se. So he's not a

1411
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 12: political person or he's not a media commentator in any

1412
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 12: way like social media commentator in any way. So I

1413
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 12: think it is purely as you see that it is

1414
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 12: just to anybody.

1415
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 7: They see that could speak truth.

1416
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:05,759
Speaker 12: Are make people aware because in Pakistan there's a complete

1417
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:12,639
Speaker 12: gag orders enforced on Pakistani media. Nobody can speak other

1418
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 12: than what they really want them to speak. And if

1419
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 12: you remember the case where I got abducted, previously, there

1420
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:24,439
Speaker 12: was a prominent journalist Asha Shariv who had to leave

1421
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:27,240
Speaker 12: the country and later on he got assassinated in Kenya.

1422
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 12: So after that situation was not the same in Pakistan.

1423
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 12: Most of the media people, for example, just to give

1424
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:39,160
Speaker 12: you an idea, all the prominent media figures are definitely

1425
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 12: close friends and I worked with them for almost four

1426
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:45,920
Speaker 12: years in the government as a chief spokesperson of Prime

1427
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:49,559
Speaker 12: Minister in Arkhan laterist chief of Staff. Before that, I

1428
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 12: was in a government of Punjab working with the Chief Minister.

1429
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 12: So I worked with all these prominent media personalities and

1430
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 12: TV anchors and sent them a personal message about the

1431
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:07,959
Speaker 12: abduction of my brother. And I treated too normally practice

1432
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 12: in Pakistani media that people immediately condemn our give their

1433
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 12: opinion about such abduction or any wrongdoing. The majority of

1434
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:22,520
Speaker 12: them did text me back, did text me back over

1435
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 12: the cell phone.

1436
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:24,720
Speaker 7: I mean over the wordstaff.

1437
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 12: But they never treated like They've never given their opinion publically,

1438
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 12: which is a norm in Pakistan usually they do. We

1439
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 12: all reciprocate to each other. If anything wrong happened to anyone,

1440
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:40,919
Speaker 12: we raise voice for that person. And even the situation

1441
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 12: is so worse that majority of our party people now

1442
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 12: even they can't speak like my own party, the political party,

1443
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:53,600
Speaker 12: majority of people couldn't even tweet. There's a so so

1444
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 12: strong pressure over them that it's other Mashwali's brothers are

1445
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 12: it's my brother.

1446
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 7: They cannot even come on the Twitter.

1447
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 12: And read that one of our fellow party members, family

1448
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 12: member got aprected and we condemned this. It's has so

1449
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,799
Speaker 12: much harassment, so much pressure on those people, that people

1450
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 12: are afraid of speaking truths.

1451
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 5: Now Heroing and Shabaza wanted to ask, maybe if you

1452
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 5: could sort of zoom out and give us the broader

1453
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 5: context of why it's so important for them to crack

1454
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:32,879
Speaker 5: down on descent, Why they don't want people speaking freely

1455
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:35,559
Speaker 5: and critically of the government.

1456
01:18:35,600 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 6: Why is that so important.

1457
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:43,760
Speaker 12: Emily, We need to understand fus Pakistan. Pakistan never had

1458
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 12: an ideal democracy or even democracy true democracy. It is

1459
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:55,400
Speaker 12: always military controlled. Our military hatched democracy, our military I

1460
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:58,680
Speaker 12: would say enforced democracy, whatever you.

1461
01:18:58,640 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 7: Want to say.

1462
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 12: Pakistan never had, unfortunately, ideal of democracy and everybody knows

1463
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 12: that since the inception of Pakistan, it's the Pakistani military

1464
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 12: establishment which controls everything when it comes to governing the

1465
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 12: country majority of the time.

1466
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:16,520
Speaker 7: But the real problem.

1467
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,040
Speaker 12: We need to understand about Pakistan that Pakistan is very

1468
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 12: different than any other Muslim country. Pakistan, we have to

1469
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 12: go back. During the British regime of eighteen fifty seven,

1470
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:32,720
Speaker 12: people fought for freedom war and then later on it

1471
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 12: continued until nineteen forty seven. So all the people from

1472
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:39,839
Speaker 12: India and Pakistan and Bangladesh today there are three different countries.

1473
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 12: Of course at that time it was larger in India.

1474
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:48,519
Speaker 12: They fought for their freedom, they exercised their democratic rights,

1475
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:54,320
Speaker 12: so the training is there. Pakistani people tasted the like

1476
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 12: they have to fight for their freedom. So although that

1477
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 12: I would say war is continuing, it didn't end in

1478
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 12: nineteen forty seven month British left people thought it's complete

1479
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 12: freedom now, but unfortunately Pakistani's never got complete democracy and

1480
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 12: they are their fight continues, which they were doing and

1481
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:19,760
Speaker 12: which they were fighting in British during the British you

1482
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:24,439
Speaker 12: know regime. So I don't think people will be silent.

1483
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 12: Pakistani people are different. It's not at spring like you

1484
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 12: won't see it like that. I'm not pensive to any nation.

1485
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:35,679
Speaker 12: I respect everybody, but Pakistani people are different. Yes, they've

1486
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:39,600
Speaker 12: never had democracy, but it's not like it will not

1487
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:43,719
Speaker 12: be a pulse behavior that they will speak for six

1488
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 12: months and then General CC will come and will curb

1489
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 12: everything and you will see complete silence.

1490
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:53,920
Speaker 7: No, you will see movements like maybe for a few.

1491
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:55,719
Speaker 12: Months they can curb and then you will see people

1492
01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 12: again on the street. So Pakistani society, pakistan societies.

1493
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 7: Overall makeup is very different.

1494
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:08,440
Speaker 12: So they have a very strong desire and urge for democracy.

1495
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 12: Pakistanis really desired strongly for the freedom of speech and

1496
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 12: Pakistanis are very vocal when it comes to their basic

1497
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 12: human rights and their freedom of speech. So especially Himran Khan,

1498
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:25,719
Speaker 12: who has given a completely different I would say flavor

1499
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 12: in politics. See, he came up with his party twenty

1500
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,840
Speaker 12: eight twenty seven years ago with the name that Justice

1501
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 12: Party and he told people that the biggest trouble is

1502
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:41,840
Speaker 12: rule of law and dispensation of justice. If people get

1503
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:46,720
Speaker 12: justice like today, if courts can give me justice Azamashwani

1504
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 12: and other people whose families got abrected, family members got abbrected.

1505
01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:53,639
Speaker 7: If we get justice, and.

1506
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 12: Those people who are doing these criminal activities, they are,

1507
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:01,839
Speaker 12: they could be, they could be placed behind the bars,

1508
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 12: are they could be you know, slammed with some kind

1509
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:11,519
Speaker 12: of cases. So I don't think any anyone in future

1510
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:15,080
Speaker 12: would try to do these kind of objections. But our

1511
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 12: problem is that we never Pakistan was never able to

1512
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 12: prosecute such people. Rather political workers got prosecuted, but such

1513
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:31,719
Speaker 12: people never got prosecuted by the state or by any government.

1514
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:34,639
Speaker 12: And they know that it's a free live whatever they do.

1515
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:40,400
Speaker 12: So once, if if ever, once Pakistani codes really go

1516
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 12: to the level where they punish such wrongdoings, I think

1517
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:48,439
Speaker 12: that will be a point where we will see a

1518
01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:49,320
Speaker 12: different Pakistan.

1519
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 4: It does seem like the court system is trying in

1520
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:56,559
Speaker 4: a halting and kind of feeble way, but at least

1521
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 4: in at least in a way to push back against

1522
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 4: the establishment. At this point, they've thrown out or suspended

1523
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 4: a number of Imran Khan's you know, kind of trumped

1524
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:10,320
Speaker 4: up prosecutions. The only one that he's still being held

1525
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:12,960
Speaker 4: in prison for at this point, is this really bizarre

1526
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:16,759
Speaker 4: and embarrassing kind of un Islamic, embarrassing for Pakistan's government,

1527
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 4: un Islamic marriage charge. And in order to kind of

1528
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 4: show that he's being treated well in prison, the authorities

1529
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:26,960
Speaker 4: put up this if we can put up this second

1530
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 4: element here, they put up this photo of the of

1531
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:34,639
Speaker 4: the very cramped solitary windowless cell that he's being held

1532
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 4: in as evidence that they're treating him well. But doctor

1533
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,400
Speaker 4: Gil I understand is that you actually were in this

1534
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:48,200
Speaker 4: precise same cell for about a week after after you

1535
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 4: were picked up. Can you describe for us what what

1536
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 4: the what the conditions are like there?

1537
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:57,960
Speaker 12: Ran I was in such cell for more than a

1538
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:02,599
Speaker 12: beek actually for a couple of weeks. So it's uh

1539
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:07,679
Speaker 12: six feet five five and a half to six feet

1540
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 12: wide and nine feet along cell windowless, a very small

1541
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 12: hole which is also covered with an exhaust fan, a

1542
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 12: very small.

1543
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 7: That is for the light and air, and uh.

1544
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:30,479
Speaker 12: An open Indian toilet within this cell within these nine

1545
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 12: and six measurements. You can imagine, so after if you

1546
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 12: take that toilet out, you end up having only six

1547
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 12: feet maybe a few inches more For just to adjust

1548
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 12: yourself and sleep on that concrete slab. And they gave

1549
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:51,719
Speaker 12: they gave him a very thin mattress you can see,

1550
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:55,599
Speaker 12: which is placed on that slab. And that is also

1551
01:24:55,720 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 12: after a lot of public pressure, a lot of lawyers

1552
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 12: pressure in the court because when I was there initially,

1553
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:06,000
Speaker 12: and Imran Khan also when he was there, he never

1554
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:09,479
Speaker 12: got that even thin mattress, and I never got that

1555
01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 12: thin mattress.

1556
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 7: File I was in such cells. They used to make

1557
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:15,040
Speaker 7: me sleep on the floor.

1558
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:21,560
Speaker 12: So this is inhuman and from every aspect, this is inhuman.

1559
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:27,599
Speaker 12: The way they are treating him, This cell is an

1560
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:30,880
Speaker 12: embarrassment for rule of law. This cell is an embarrassment

1561
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 12: for human rights. This cell is an embarrassment for democracy.

1562
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:38,960
Speaker 12: Like he's the most popular democratic leader, he's an ex

1563
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 12: prime minister, ninety percent overwhelming support with him and people

1564
01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 12: want him back as a prime minister.

1565
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:51,720
Speaker 7: And he's been placed in jail in such a shameful.

1566
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 12: Case that he got married his wife before fulfilling that

1567
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:01,440
Speaker 12: required in their own mind, required time in the two divorces,

1568
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:04,679
Speaker 12: because she got divorced from her previous husband and got

1569
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:08,160
Speaker 12: married with the Prime Minister Khan. And their case is

1570
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:11,160
Speaker 12: that they got married. Their case, which is not a truth.

1571
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,760
Speaker 12: But if we even take their case is that they

1572
01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:19,599
Speaker 12: got married after forty eight days of her divorce from

1573
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:25,839
Speaker 12: the previous husband. Supreme Court of Pakistan already given judgment

1574
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:28,920
Speaker 12: in nineteen ninety two in another case where a woman

1575
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,000
Speaker 12: got married within thirty nine days of her divorce and

1576
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 12: they said this is a sufficient time period to marry

1577
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:37,799
Speaker 12: again after the divorce.

1578
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 7: So this case is already settled in the courts and.

1579
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:48,000
Speaker 12: Even the religious scholars, all of the religious scholars already

1580
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:50,719
Speaker 12: condemned this behavior of current regime.

1581
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:52,599
Speaker 7: So this is a mockery of religion.

1582
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:56,600
Speaker 12: This is a mockery of unfortunately, rule of law and

1583
01:26:56,680 --> 01:27:00,400
Speaker 12: Pakistani constitution just to keep him in the jail well

1584
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:04,280
Speaker 12: Ran The most important point is that Prime Minister Khant

1585
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:06,840
Speaker 12: has played his.

1586
01:27:07,439 --> 01:27:09,320
Speaker 7: Vital role and he will be.

1587
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:12,320
Speaker 12: In Challah playing his vital role once again in Pakistan.

1588
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:17,080
Speaker 12: But the way he changed the social fabric and political

1589
01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:22,160
Speaker 12: fabric in Pakistan, that is unprecedented. He has given, he

1590
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 12: has given a hope and he has given people a

1591
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:29,920
Speaker 12: new orientation. I would say in the political landscape where

1592
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,400
Speaker 12: people want to speak given with more strength.

1593
01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:35,640
Speaker 7: People are not ready to buy Pakistani military.

1594
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:40,360
Speaker 12: Establishment will always was always successful, hiding behind courtes and

1595
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 12: hiding behind all this persecution and making it look like

1596
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:49,320
Speaker 12: prosecution and making it look like that politicians are incompetent.

1597
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:51,800
Speaker 7: They are corrupt, they are compromised, they are not.

1598
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 12: Honest and patriot with with with Pakistan.

1599
01:27:57,240 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 7: So these were the charges. And sometime if we.

1600
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:04,639
Speaker 12: Need is they go after a character assassination and their

1601
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:07,280
Speaker 12: family members and all those things. But they were never,

1602
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:11,280
Speaker 12: you know, open in the in the field, in front

1603
01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:13,240
Speaker 12: of the people that they are the one there too.

1604
01:28:13,320 --> 01:28:15,799
Speaker 7: Everybody knew that, but there was no admission.

1605
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 12: There was nobody accusing them directly, and they were not

1606
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:23,120
Speaker 12: answerable directly to the people of Pakistan. What Prime Minister

1607
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 12: hand died and it's very brave of him that he

1608
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 12: called them out in the public and in the open

1609
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 12: that it.

1610
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 7: Is you who is behind all this.

1611
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:37,759
Speaker 12: So this is the first time military establishment is feeling

1612
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 12: real pressure and real criticism and public accountability, of course

1613
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:45,280
Speaker 12: not in any court, but public accountability in the court

1614
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:49,720
Speaker 12: of public everywhere. People opinion is now crystal clear that

1615
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:54,559
Speaker 12: this is the military establishment who design uh, you know,

1616
01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 12: the make and break of the political governments in the

1617
01:28:57,400 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 12: Pakistan and when they don't do not like somebody, they

1618
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 12: either you know, removed them through court proceedings or they

1619
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:09,200
Speaker 12: removed them through you know, infamous vote of no confidence

1620
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:11,560
Speaker 12: in such tricks.

1621
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:13,720
Speaker 6: And Schabaz, how did you escape that? How did you

1622
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:15,040
Speaker 6: get out of Pakistan?

1623
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:16,519
Speaker 7: Emily.

1624
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 12: That's prior to night May ninth, which was another orchestrated

1625
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 12: operation against by Sandy cames off. After that, everything changed,

1626
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:33,000
Speaker 12: like quotes impact and I would say quotes orientation also changed.

1627
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:36,600
Speaker 12: Our courts are very very limited to their ability to

1628
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:40,519
Speaker 12: provide justice. But before ninth May, we were having at

1629
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:43,800
Speaker 12: least and until then Prime mister Hahn was not got

1630
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:46,920
Speaker 12: arrested and he was also getting some kind of relief

1631
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:49,679
Speaker 12: from the courts in terms of bails and other stuff.

1632
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:52,519
Speaker 7: So April last year, like.

1633
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:56,559
Speaker 12: Twenty twenty three March and April, I went to quote

1634
01:29:57,400 --> 01:30:01,960
Speaker 12: a prominent TV anchor Imrandre and myself our cases were

1635
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:07,000
Speaker 12: in the court and Lahore High Court permitted me to

1636
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 12: leave the country. So Imran Riaz was able to leave

1637
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,560
Speaker 12: the country. Myself was able to leave the country. Unfortunately,

1638
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:19,479
Speaker 12: Imran Rias went back after completing his Omerah and.

1639
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:21,400
Speaker 7: I also wanted to go back.

1640
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 12: On sixteenth of May twenty twenty three, my flight was booked.

1641
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 12: But then that ninth May happen and the way they

1642
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 12: arrested Prime mister Khan and they physically roughed up with him,

1643
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:42,960
Speaker 12: and you have seen all that over the video evidence.

1644
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:46,200
Speaker 12: What has happened when they arrested Prime mister Khan. So

1645
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 12: after a couple of days, when Prime mister Hahn got released,

1646
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:51,719
Speaker 12: he told me not to come back right now because

1647
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:55,040
Speaker 12: he could foresee what is happening and what will happen

1648
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:55,839
Speaker 12: in coming days.

1649
01:30:56,120 --> 01:30:57,080
Speaker 7: So that was the time.

1650
01:30:57,160 --> 01:30:59,720
Speaker 12: Then it was decided that I'll stay here in the

1651
01:30:59,800 --> 01:31:03,760
Speaker 12: US and I'll continue my activities from there. But it

1652
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:07,240
Speaker 12: was with the court orders of the three member bench,

1653
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:12,639
Speaker 12: a larger bench, which which made me travel, which allowed

1654
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 12: me to travel out of Pakistan.

1655
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 3: And you mentioned h im Ron Riaz.

1656
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:19,280
Speaker 4: Here we actually if you can put up the element

1657
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:22,559
Speaker 4: F four uh, we we have footage of him. This

1658
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 4: is from yesterday headed to the airport and getting abducted.

1659
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:30,759
Speaker 4: And you can see the way that these abductions happened.

1660
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 4: This is not you don't see a lot of You

1661
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:37,720
Speaker 4: see a few kind of authority type figures somewhere in

1662
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:41,479
Speaker 4: the background, but mostly these are all just plane closed

1663
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,240
Speaker 4: people surrounding his car. Uh and they and they eventually

1664
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:46,280
Speaker 4: took him.

1665
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:46,840
Speaker 2: Uh.

1666
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 4: This is a journalist, very prominent journalist, who, according to

1667
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:55,480
Speaker 4: all the reporting underwent you know, horrific torture, emerged from custody.

1668
01:31:56,120 --> 01:32:01,000
Speaker 4: It seemingly a changed person, yet with intense courage, like

1669
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:05,040
Speaker 4: you said, continued to speak out. Uh and continued speaking

1670
01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:06,880
Speaker 4: out from inside Pakistan.

1671
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:07,800
Speaker 3: Uh.

1672
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:11,880
Speaker 4: It's horrific to think of him now back under their

1673
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:15,760
Speaker 4: control and considering what they could potentially do to him.

1674
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:19,320
Speaker 4: And I don't want you to necessarily relive your your

1675
01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:21,880
Speaker 4: own detention, but it's been widely reported that you know,

1676
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 4: you suffered incredible amounts of torture as well. And I'm

1677
01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 4: curious if, from your perspective, was the torture aimed at

1678
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:35,160
Speaker 4: actually extracting information from you or was it just was

1679
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 4: it to humiliate you? Was it to send a message

1680
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 4: to the rest of your your party, like what what

1681
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:44,880
Speaker 4: was your what was your understanding as as you were

1682
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:46,640
Speaker 4: going through it? And if you don't want to talk

1683
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 4: about it, I also understand that.

1684
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 7: And all right, I would talk about it.

1685
01:32:50,439 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 12: Actually, there's a history to it again when Zulkar Ali

1686
01:32:55,080 --> 01:33:00,000
Speaker 12: Bhuttu got persecuted by Pakistani at that time is Pakistani

1687
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:06,160
Speaker 12: military establishment. They picked up one of his deputy Macmooth

1688
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:11,160
Speaker 12: Maso Masoth Macmooth, I'm sorry, his name was Masud Mamouth

1689
01:33:11,240 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 12: and he got picked up and they of course tortured

1690
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:17,840
Speaker 12: him and then they were able, they were successful to

1691
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:21,679
Speaker 12: take a statement against Zulfkarli Bhutto was a concorded statement.

1692
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 12: But he appeared in the court against Zulfkarli Bhutto as

1693
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:28,760
Speaker 12: one of their prime witness to accuse him that he

1694
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:31,639
Speaker 12: was involved in a murder. And later on they hanged

1695
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:37,759
Speaker 12: him in that in that completely fabricated and completely i would.

1696
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 7: Say, illegitimate legal case.

1697
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:43,680
Speaker 12: And later on, after thirty five years, Supreme Court of

1698
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:49,479
Speaker 12: Pakistan now agreed and issued a verdict that that was

1699
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:51,639
Speaker 12: a judicial killing, that was not a.

1700
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:53,920
Speaker 7: Fair trial, that was not a fair case.

1701
01:33:54,240 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 12: So they were repeating exactly the same episode with me

1702
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:00,200
Speaker 12: when they abducted me as a chief of staff. They

1703
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:02,960
Speaker 12: wanted me to give a statement against Prime mister Khan

1704
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:11,160
Speaker 12: that he's involved with Beijing war against Pakistani military and

1705
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:16,479
Speaker 12: he's involved in mutiny, he's involved in sedition and he

1706
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:20,160
Speaker 12: is the one actually who wants to create chaos and

1707
01:34:21,360 --> 01:34:24,560
Speaker 12: he wants a civil war in Pakistan against the Pakistani

1708
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:27,320
Speaker 12: military and a Pakistani constitution.

1709
01:34:27,840 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 7: So this is what they wanted me to say in

1710
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:32,599
Speaker 7: the court. This is what they wanted me to.

1711
01:34:34,160 --> 01:34:36,360
Speaker 12: Appear in the court of law and give this statement

1712
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:39,440
Speaker 12: against him. And then of course had I given that statement,

1713
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:44,920
Speaker 12: they would make sure that his faith is similar to

1714
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:48,880
Speaker 12: zulfkaributto what has been done to him, what had been

1715
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:49,719
Speaker 12: done to him.

1716
01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:54,639
Speaker 7: They would repeat the same. So that was the actual purpose.

1717
01:34:54,720 --> 01:35:00,280
Speaker 12: So of course information gathering are extracting information about.

1718
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 7: The party, party work and about Imran Khan.

1719
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:04,960
Speaker 12: That was there too, But the main aim was to

1720
01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:10,040
Speaker 12: get a statement from me against prime insta rant. So

1721
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 12: that was the main objective. To abduct me and then

1722
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:17,719
Speaker 12: torture me. And you know, even I was facing trial

1723
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:23,479
Speaker 12: and charges of sedation and mutiny where I could face

1724
01:35:24,080 --> 01:35:28,520
Speaker 12: and I still have that trial under the process in Pakistan,

1725
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:32,519
Speaker 12: where I could even be given a death sentence in

1726
01:35:32,560 --> 01:35:33,320
Speaker 12: that case.

1727
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:36,439
Speaker 3: How did you resist making those statements?

1728
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 4: I must be made of much softer stuff, I feel like,

1729
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 4: you know, by the end of the day, by the

1730
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:42,680
Speaker 4: end of the first day, I'd be like, just give

1731
01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 4: just give me whatever you want. Like, how did you

1732
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:51,519
Speaker 4: mentally and physically maintain your your your integrity?

1733
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:52,400
Speaker 6: Ryan?

1734
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:54,960
Speaker 7: It is of course physical pain.

1735
01:35:55,280 --> 01:35:58,040
Speaker 12: When when when so much physical pain is given to

1736
01:35:58,080 --> 01:35:58,639
Speaker 12: any person?

1737
01:35:58,720 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 7: We are all human beings.

1738
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:04,679
Speaker 12: I'm not a I'm not a terrorist or trained a criminal.

1739
01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:07,440
Speaker 7: I am a regular. I'm an academission.

1740
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:14,320
Speaker 12: All my life I taught in universities, worked into classrooms,

1741
01:36:15,040 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 12: our research labs, and I was never trained for such

1742
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:25,080
Speaker 12: kind of horrific torture. But then we, uh, we have

1743
01:36:25,120 --> 01:36:28,599
Speaker 12: a faith in our Allah that once you go through

1744
01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:31,360
Speaker 12: such things, there's a there's a reason you have put

1745
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:33,200
Speaker 12: into such tests.

1746
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 7: And maybe that was a time for me.

1747
01:36:35,080 --> 01:36:38,880
Speaker 12: To go through such a horrific experience, But actually it

1748
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:42,439
Speaker 12: was a test for me to either I stand by

1749
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 12: my principles are not. It was difficult, I must admit

1750
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:51,040
Speaker 12: it was difficult. Many At times I used to think, Okay,

1751
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:56,080
Speaker 12: let's let's let's give it up. It's it's enough, and uh,

1752
01:36:56,360 --> 01:36:59,879
Speaker 12: then I used to think, no, this, this my statement

1753
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:06,040
Speaker 12: would produce a lie, false narrative, and then nobody knows

1754
01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:09,599
Speaker 12: how many more will go through the same pain and

1755
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:15,719
Speaker 12: the same numiliation and same stress and same physical torture

1756
01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:22,280
Speaker 12: by my wrong statement, by my I would say a

1757
01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 12: statement which would not carry truth. So that was the

1758
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:28,600
Speaker 12: feeling that who gives me, who gave me right to

1759
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:33,000
Speaker 12: put other people go through the same just to ease

1760
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:33,599
Speaker 12: my pain?

1761
01:37:34,080 --> 01:37:36,719
Speaker 7: That was I think one of the things which made

1762
01:37:36,760 --> 01:37:37,800
Speaker 7: me decide this.

1763
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 12: And then I emerged from a very small local village.

1764
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:46,200
Speaker 7: Of Psalabad. So I.

1765
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:50,640
Speaker 12: Had a feel that if I would not stand up,

1766
01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:53,960
Speaker 12: if I would not show courage, people from my area

1767
01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:58,519
Speaker 12: will be embarrassed. Like this person was the deputy and

1768
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 12: the hand picked person of Prime Minister Imraan Khan as

1769
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:06,080
Speaker 12: his chief of staff. And even if I'm giving any

1770
01:38:06,080 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 12: statement which is a truth against my leader, any I'm

1771
01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:15,080
Speaker 12: talking about any political difference or anything, even that would

1772
01:38:15,280 --> 01:38:17,439
Speaker 12: cause a lot of embarrassment to people, those who are

1773
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:22,120
Speaker 12: close to me, people those admire me for my stance

1774
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 12: or support me for my chance. But speaking a lie,

1775
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:31,200
Speaker 12: accusing him for something which he has never done, would

1776
01:38:31,200 --> 01:38:34,559
Speaker 12: be a completely shame for me and people relate to me.

1777
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:37,880
Speaker 12: So those were the things actually, those made me think

1778
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:40,920
Speaker 12: that I think I should I must.

1779
01:38:42,080 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 7: Wear it, I must let it happen.

1780
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:47,479
Speaker 12: What is happening, and I must talk to my Allah

1781
01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:50,360
Speaker 12: that give me some strength so that I can go

1782
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:52,479
Speaker 12: through all this pain and torture.

1783
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:56,800
Speaker 7: But the end of the day, I should not fall through,

1784
01:38:57,920 --> 01:38:59,479
Speaker 7: should not go down.

1785
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:02,920
Speaker 12: To the pressure that will leave me in embarrassment and

1786
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:04,240
Speaker 12: paying for the rest of my life.

1787
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:06,200
Speaker 6: That's incredible.

1788
01:39:08,240 --> 01:39:09,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hope I never have to find out, but

1789
01:39:09,800 --> 01:39:13,040
Speaker 4: if I do, I would would I can't. I can't

1790
01:39:13,040 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 4: imagine the fortitude that it took. But that's uh, it's

1791
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:18,599
Speaker 4: it's really interesting to hear the way that you kind

1792
01:39:18,600 --> 01:39:22,080
Speaker 4: of talked, your talked your way through it and your

1793
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:26,639
Speaker 4: faith and you're also your your love for your hometown

1794
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:28,960
Speaker 4: and the people around them that that pushed you through it.

1795
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:34,519
Speaker 4: Shabbas Gail will be will be asking the State Department

1796
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 4: about the case of your brother, no doubt about it,

1797
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 4: and and the others who have who have been abducted,

1798
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:41,639
Speaker 4: including in Rnriaz Khan.

1799
01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:45,599
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for for joining us and sharing

1800
01:39:45,640 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 3: this with.

1801
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 12: Us, and I I just want to thank you and

1802
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 12: your team on the behalf of entire Pakistan.

1803
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:56,439
Speaker 7: You are a celebrity, no uh, and everybody knows you.

1804
01:39:56,960 --> 01:40:00,160
Speaker 12: I think you are maybe one of them if I

1805
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:03,479
Speaker 12: would say three four names in the entire world from

1806
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:07,599
Speaker 12: the Western media are international media outside the Pakistan, maybe

1807
01:40:07,640 --> 01:40:10,160
Speaker 12: you are one one.

1808
01:40:09,960 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 7: Of those two or three people in the.

1809
01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:18,840
Speaker 12: Entire world who Pakistani watches. They read your work, they

1810
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:22,560
Speaker 12: interact with your Twitter. You know that they give you compliments,

1811
01:40:22,560 --> 01:40:25,280
Speaker 12: they give you and of course there would be some

1812
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:29,160
Speaker 12: military regime back people must be threatening you as well.

1813
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:33,519
Speaker 12: But I'm really really thankful on behalf of Pakistani nation,

1814
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:38,680
Speaker 12: on behalf of Imran Khan, on behalf of all those women, especially,

1815
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:46,800
Speaker 12: I must not forget to salute and.

1816
01:40:44,920 --> 01:40:48,080
Speaker 7: I actually appreciate our women. Actually they are the one

1817
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:49,240
Speaker 7: those are making difference.

1818
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,200
Speaker 12: It's the first time in Pakistani history that any military

1819
01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:56,040
Speaker 12: regime put women behind the bar for such an extended period.

1820
01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:58,680
Speaker 7: And again this is the first in Pakistan.

1821
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:02,400
Speaker 12: The way they are responding, the way they are standing

1822
01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:06,880
Speaker 12: tall with all the courage and facing all such pressures

1823
01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:12,160
Speaker 12: and facing all brutality of the state institutions. But still

1824
01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:14,439
Speaker 12: they are not giving up their hopes, they are not

1825
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:17,559
Speaker 12: giving up their truth, They're not giving up their right

1826
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:20,839
Speaker 12: to speak, their right to have rule.

1827
01:41:20,600 --> 01:41:23,240
Speaker 7: Of law and democracy in Pakistan. So I.

1828
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:29,040
Speaker 12: Would say, if one segment of the society is most admirable,

1829
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:36,639
Speaker 12: more admirable than I would say sacrifice contribution anyone else

1830
01:41:37,160 --> 01:41:42,160
Speaker 12: sacrifice the contribution. It's our women and our journalists like

1831
01:41:42,439 --> 01:41:45,880
Speaker 12: Shidashushly got assassinated in Chinia and he.

1832
01:41:45,960 --> 01:41:49,439
Speaker 4: Was You make an interesting point because, yeah, the United

1833
01:41:49,479 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 4: States has takes so much pride in the way that

1834
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 4: it stands up for the rights of women around the world.

1835
01:41:55,280 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 4: But women have played an extraordinary role in Pakistan in

1836
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:03,560
Speaker 4: the democratic awakening there and have had the American boot

1837
01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:06,640
Speaker 4: put put on their necks as a result. Thanks and

1838
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:09,639
Speaker 4: thank you for the kind words. And you know, here

1839
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:12,840
Speaker 4: here's to a better day ahead for Pakistan and for

1840
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:13,920
Speaker 4: everyone around the world.

1841
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:15,920
Speaker 3: Thank you again for joining us.

1842
01:42:16,520 --> 01:42:16,840
Speaker 7: Thank you.

1843
01:42:16,920 --> 01:42:20,000
Speaker 4: Thanks for that was Shabba's Gail, former chief of staff

1844
01:42:20,040 --> 01:42:22,880
Speaker 4: to Prime Minister then Prime Minister im Ron Khan, now

1845
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:25,880
Speaker 4: his media advisor here in the United States. I mean

1846
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:28,600
Speaker 4: that was intense, uh And actually one thing I was

1847
01:42:28,640 --> 01:42:32,120
Speaker 4: thinking while he was talking is that I Ran Khan

1848
01:42:32,240 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 4: might be the figure in the world that represents your

1849
01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:40,000
Speaker 4: politics maybe better than anybody else. A true like religious

1850
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:45,760
Speaker 4: social conservative, but also very pro worker. It's it's kind

1851
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:51,519
Speaker 4: of like the compact politics that's like this, this kind

1852
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 4: of new new right politics. He kind of pioneered it

1853
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:55,719
Speaker 4: in a way.

1854
01:42:57,160 --> 01:43:00,679
Speaker 5: It's interesting also because he gets very little attention from

1855
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:04,400
Speaker 5: the crowd on the right that will give a lot

1856
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 5: of attention to Victor Orbon or Melae or others. And

1857
01:43:08,520 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 5: I think probably faith is the key roadblock on that question.

1858
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:18,240
Speaker 5: But still, I was so glad that Shabaz mentioned how

1859
01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:23,320
Speaker 5: impactful and influential your reporting has been, because domestically, to

1860
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:25,679
Speaker 5: your point, domestically, I think people are paying so little

1861
01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:29,120
Speaker 5: attention to this despite the fact that the American boot.

1862
01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:30,320
Speaker 6: As you put it, is.

1863
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:32,560
Speaker 5: Weighing really heavily in Pakistan right now. I mean, the

1864
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:36,320
Speaker 5: media coverage and attention here so disproportionate to America's role

1865
01:43:37,000 --> 01:43:41,879
Speaker 5: in the situation in Pakistan. Your reporting has just been huge,

1866
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:45,559
Speaker 5: And you know, I thought that was a really well

1867
01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:48,120
Speaker 5: placed gratitude because.

1868
01:43:47,920 --> 01:43:49,519
Speaker 6: It's meant a lot. I don't know a lot of

1869
01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 6: people over there.

1870
01:43:50,920 --> 01:43:54,080
Speaker 4: Randomly becoming a celebrity in Pakistan was not something I

1871
01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 4: had in my life's bingo card. But it's been gratifying

1872
01:43:58,880 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 4: and if nobody else is gonna cover it in the West,

1873
01:44:02,439 --> 01:44:05,600
Speaker 4: we're gonna We're gonna do it, so I'm glad that

1874
01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:07,200
Speaker 4: glad to see there's an audience for it.

1875
01:44:07,240 --> 01:44:11,320
Speaker 5: There absolutely and this is this Friday Show is going

1876
01:44:11,360 --> 01:44:12,080
Speaker 5: to be with Orange Cass.

1877
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:13,240
Speaker 6: I know we mentioned that again.

1878
01:44:13,600 --> 01:44:17,280
Speaker 5: We will be back here next Wednesday, obviously with counterpoints.

1879
01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:20,280
Speaker 5: Make sure to subscribe at breakingpoints dot com to get

1880
01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:22,639
Speaker 5: all of counterpoints, so you don't just get a.

1881
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:25,160
Speaker 6: Few clips, you get the whole show. You get it early.

1882
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:27,280
Speaker 5: If you're a subscriber and you get the Friday Show

1883
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:27,679
Speaker 5: early

1884
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:30,160
Speaker 3: As well, all right, we'll see you then,