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Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with

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Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton,

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Speaker 1: co editor in chief of Variety Today. My guest is

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Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, chief strategy officer for Pushkin Industries. If you

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Speaker 1: love great narrative podcasts, you know this audio signature that

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Speaker 1: opens Pushkin titles Pushkin. Pushkin is one of podcasting's premium studios.

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Speaker 1: It was co founded in twenty eighteen by Malcolm Gladwell

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Speaker 1: and Jake Weisberg. It's home to great series such as

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Speaker 1: Gladwell's Revisionist History and Against the Rules, hosted by author

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Speaker 1: Michael Lewis. Sandler and I discussed the macro environment for

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Speaker 1: podcasting and audio entertainment. He also details the company's creator

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Speaker 1: first strategy of nurturing shows and talent across all media platforms.

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Speaker 1: Fans of The Big Short should get ready for a

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Speaker 1: big tenth anniversary look back at the movie based on

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Speaker 1: Lewis's book that captured all the drama that tanked the

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Speaker 1: housing market. Pushkin will release The Big Short as an

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Speaker 1: audiobook for the first time, narrated by Lewis and Lewis

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Speaker 1: will host a companion podcast series that will revisit the

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Speaker 1: key events and key players, and Sandler explains why there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more to come from one of podcasting's hottest shops.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review

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Speaker 1: on the podcast platform of your choice. Please go to

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Speaker 1: Variety dot com and sign up for the free weekly

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Speaker 1: Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next

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Speaker 1: week for another episode of Strictly Business. Eric Sandler, chief

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Speaker 1: Strategy Officer for Pushkin Industries, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a Pushkin fan. You do my kind of podcast,

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Speaker 1: very thoughtful, very heady, really interesting, deep dives into corners

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Speaker 1: of his that I didn't know about. One of my

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Speaker 1: favorites is Lost Hills from the Great Dana Goodyear. Terrific

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Speaker 1: investigative reporting. I could go on, Eric, I want to talk.

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Speaker 1: You have some news, you have a broad new slate,

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Speaker 1: some really interesting stuff coming. I wanted to talk firstuf

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Speaker 1: about the macro podcasting environment. Where are you seeing the

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Speaker 1: most pockets of growth, the biggest opportunities for your top titles.

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Speaker 2: The industry has been around for quite a few years now,

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Speaker 2: but in some ways it still feels really new. You

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Speaker 2: still have people who have never listened to a podcast,

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Speaker 2: even though that percentage is shrinking at this point. And

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Speaker 2: I think what we find is that quality matters, right,

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Speaker 2: The more quality storytelling you put out, the more audience

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Speaker 2: you will grow from there. But there's been some turmoil

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Speaker 2: in the industry and some changes to the models of

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Speaker 2: how things are consumed, but I don't think that that

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Speaker 2: actually takes away from the core mission of what we

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Speaker 2: do at Pushkin, which is telling stories that entertain people, informed,

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Speaker 2: pace people, make people think about things in a different way.

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwater, co founder, always like to say that if

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Speaker 2: you want to make someone think about something, then he'll

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Speaker 2: write it in a book. If he wants to make

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Speaker 2: someone feel something, he'll put it into audio. There's just

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Speaker 2: such an impactful element to the overall medium.

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Speaker 1: I find just as a consumer, it's a different way

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Speaker 1: to absorb especially complicated information. So just a bit in

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Speaker 1: the hardcore business of Pushkin, you have a mix of

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Speaker 1: ad supported. Podcasting is very ad supported, but you also

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Speaker 1: do have a subscription platform as well.

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Speaker 2: That's correct, We're ad supported across our podcast billso have

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Speaker 2: push im network wide subscription. We're off for ad pre content.

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Speaker 2: We offer binge opportunities, early access, bonus content. Another pillar

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Speaker 2: of what we do is audiobooks, though which of you

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Speaker 2: here pushing So many of our hosts and our creators

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Speaker 2: are also authors, and that's what pushkin was born out of.

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Speaker 2: And so we see a really cohesive audience across podcasts

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Speaker 2: and audiobooks. And there's a really interesting pipe line that

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Speaker 2: we're creating, which is a space that used to be

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Speaker 2: held by magazines and newspapers. And this is something that

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Speaker 2: Malcolm's thought a lot about, which is, you know, when

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Speaker 2: he wrote The Tipping Point, his first book, it was

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Speaker 2: first an article in The New Yorker, and there were

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Speaker 2: so many of his peers that were growing up in

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Speaker 2: this industry that was building them to be the next

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Speaker 2: best selling authors, the next PEP script writers, the next

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Speaker 2: movie script writers. That ecosystem has changed and podcasting is

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Speaker 2: filling that space. And so what we see is the

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Speaker 2: ability to take podcast series that's a couple episodes and

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Speaker 2: then expanded into an audiobook and a print book and

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Speaker 2: a TV film option as well. So an example that

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Speaker 2: would be Malcolm's Bomber Mafia series. It starts four episodes

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Speaker 2: in Revision's history A couple of years ago got turned

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Speaker 2: into an audiobook and we did a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a reversal of the pipeline and we sold the print

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Speaker 2: rights and that got optioned by A twenty four for

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Speaker 2: a TV film, And so we want to create more

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Speaker 2: opportunities for more storytellers to use this as a testing

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Speaker 2: ground for content really drive home really impactful stories and

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Speaker 2: be able to explore the funnel in a different way.

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Speaker 1: Of the of the different of the different sort of

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Speaker 1: tranches of business. Is there one where is there one

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Speaker 1: that is like your biggest growth driver?

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Speaker 2: At this time, ads continued to be a huge part

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Speaker 2: of our business. I would say audiobooks is right up there,

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Speaker 2: and subscriptions is growing. What we see is that there's

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Speaker 2: not as much overlap between books and podcasts as you

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Speaker 2: might assume, and so things that are put out as

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Speaker 2: a podcast can also be turned into a book in

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Speaker 2: an interesting way. And that's not cannibalizing the audience. It's

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Speaker 2: finding new audience and new places that people listen the

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Speaker 2: other side of our business, in addition to add support

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Speaker 2: it is full branded podcast. So we do a really

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Speaker 2: great one with IBM called Smart Talks with IBM, hosted

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Speaker 2: by Malcolm. It's an amazing show that has narrative audio episodes,

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Speaker 2: it has live events, it has video companions alongside with it.

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Speaker 2: And what we see is that creating great content is

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Speaker 2: the core of what we want to do, whether that's

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Speaker 2: branded content, whether that's ad sport podcast, whether that's audio books,

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Speaker 2: and the audience comes to it. We did one with

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Speaker 2: Puma and Tracksmith a couple of years ago as well,

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Speaker 2: and it was named one of the ten best podcasts

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Speaker 2: the Year by the New York Times. As a branded podcast,

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Speaker 2: it just happened to be so good that the audience

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Speaker 2: came for it. And that's the type of thing that

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Speaker 2: we're looking to expand on.

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Speaker 1: Part of the news that we're talking about today is

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Speaker 1: you have re upped your Pushkin Industry's relationship with iHeart Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: who you've had at partnership for about five years. Are

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Speaker 1: there things that you've been able to do in tandem

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Speaker 1: with iHeart that you don't think you would have been

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Speaker 1: able to do on your own over these last five

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Speaker 1: years that have been a very momentous time for podcasts

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Speaker 1: listening I.

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Speaker 2: Heart is a remarkable partner for us, and they continue

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Speaker 2: to really excel it at scale and distribution as well

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Speaker 2: as positioning pushkin as a premium ad sales opportunity. So

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Speaker 2: our partnership with at IBM is alongside with iHeart as well,

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Speaker 2: and they continue to treat us as a network with

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Speaker 2: premium storytelling that can bring that to brands, and their

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Speaker 2: ability to do that has increased year over year. Like,

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Speaker 2: they really understand what we're about. It's not a faceless organization, right.

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Speaker 2: The people who work there really understand audio. They really

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Speaker 2: understand podcasting.

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Speaker 1: When you're talking to people. Is there still a lot

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Speaker 1: of education to be done about audio?

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Speaker 2: I think lest I would say the education portion is

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Speaker 2: how to execute in the best way. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of ways in which you can execute an audio, whether

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Speaker 2: that's a straight outread or a host read, or a

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Speaker 2: pre record or custom mid role or branded segments or

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Speaker 2: a custom episode or a full series or live events

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Speaker 2: or video. What we try to do is to guide

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Speaker 2: folks through the process in terms of what's the what's

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Speaker 2: their desired outcome? Right, Like we talk to a brand

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Speaker 2: who is doing one thing in video and trying to

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Speaker 2: translate that to audio with the same assets. Audio is

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Speaker 2: a distinct medium with a distinct relationship with consumers, and

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Speaker 2: so where we excel is translating that for them.

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Speaker 1: As a listener, you could tell that Michael Lewis and

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Speaker 1: Malcolm Guidwa are not just reading the cards. They are

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Speaker 1: invested within the partnership with iHeart. Are you able to

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Speaker 1: still be a free agent in other areas like content licensing?

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Speaker 1: If somebody comes to you or you want to pitch

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Speaker 1: a movie from one of your podcasts, is are you

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Speaker 1: a free agent in that? Or is there an iHeart

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Speaker 1: relationship that continues there?

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Speaker 2: iHeart is there exclusive ads, a notnization partner across our

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Speaker 2: podcast What that means is the dynamic odd opportunities across

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Speaker 2: our inventory are handled by iHeart. But in terms of

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Speaker 2: the IP and the audiobooks and things like that, Push

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Speaker 2: Can remains independent. Then we're creatively independent as well, and

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Speaker 2: so we remain sort of best of both worlds. Like

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Speaker 2: we had this wonderful partnership with iHeart that's so fruitful,

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Speaker 2: and we continue to grow there, but we also continue

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Speaker 2: to grow independently across audiobooks and TV film and other

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Speaker 2: licensing opportunities.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you have the hef to fund your

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Speaker 1: own development, you can. You could invest in something and

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Speaker 1: experiment before you take it wider.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, we do co productions with iHeart as well, which

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Speaker 2: are awesome shows like Risky Business, What's Your Problem? Where's Dia?

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Speaker 2: But we also fund our own development as well.

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Speaker 1: What do you find really allows you to break through

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Speaker 1: the vast expanse. Obviously a name like a Malcolm glad

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Speaker 1: Will Michael Lewis that's going to stand apart because of

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Speaker 1: their personal brands. But in a situation if you're trying

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Speaker 1: something's less known, what have you found is effective to

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Speaker 1: help to help launch a new property with somebody that

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Speaker 1: doesn't already bring an audience to the table.

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Speaker 2: We work with a lot of great creators who are

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Speaker 2: already established, whether that's in the book world, whether that's

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Speaker 2: in the movie world, whether that's in the music world.

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Speaker 2: That's true of some of our creators, but that's not

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Speaker 2: true of all of our creators. We believe in great

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Speaker 2: storytellers and we build that internally as well. In our

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Speaker 2: false slate. We have a show called The Chinatown Thing

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Speaker 2: and it's hosted LJ. Kott. She's been a producer over

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Speaker 2: the last few years on Michael Lewis's podcast Against the

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Speaker 2: Worlds and she perid in the last It's part Handling

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Speaker 2: season as well. So we like to grow talent within Pushkin. No,

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Speaker 2: it really speaks to our network.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a basic volume of titles that you

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Speaker 1: want to have in a given year or a given

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Speaker 1: and half year. Do you think about it along those

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Speaker 1: lines in terms of in terms of organizing your sleep.

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Speaker 2: No, not necessarily a volume. We have quite a few

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Speaker 2: ongoing shows that work on different cadences. We have always

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Speaker 2: on shows. We have shows that comes easily, we have

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Speaker 2: shows that are bi weekly, We have shows on sort

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Speaker 2: of all different candences, and we want to continue growing

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Speaker 2: new shows and giving those new shows opportunities in the network.

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Speaker 2: Do we want to be financially responsible in our investments

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Speaker 2: and balancing what we can support as a network while

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Speaker 2: also being ambitious, right, we want to be able to

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Speaker 2: support the titles that we put out. We don't want

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Speaker 2: to put something in the marketplace and then go, oh,

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Speaker 2: we don't really have the resources to stand this up

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Speaker 2: in the way that we would have hoped. I never

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Speaker 2: want to be in that situation, and so you'll see

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Speaker 2: new shows coming next year, and yes, that includes new

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Speaker 2: limited narratives. Yes that includes new weeklies. Yes that includes

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Speaker 2: shows that are on video and shows that are audio only.

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Speaker 2: But finding that balance is what we're always seeking to

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Speaker 2: do for the audience. Like I was listening to the

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Speaker 2: show a couple of weeks ago and you're speaking about

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Speaker 2: the Paramountain Skydance merger. At one of your guests made

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Speaker 2: a point at the end which was so pointed, which

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Speaker 2: was that we can talk about the money, we can

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Speaker 2: talk about the business, but it's the storytelling in the

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Speaker 2: stories that people need. And I feel totally aligned with that.

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Speaker 1: Going back to cave paintings, I think the evidence is

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Speaker 1: pretty clear. And thank you for listening.

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Speaker 2: That's great, we love it.

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Speaker 1: That's a good segue. So two of your boldest names

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Speaker 1: in the Pushkin firmament have new projects coming. Malcolm Book

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Speaker 1: Glagwell is back with a new season of revisionist history,

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Speaker 1: this time taking on capital punishment, looking at a case

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Speaker 1: that played out in Alabama and looking at the situations

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Speaker 1: and the dynamics that inform this very difficult subject. When

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Speaker 1: you have a new Malcolm project that's really like a

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Speaker 1: tenth poll for you, you are pulling out all the stops.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure to get this up. Can you give us

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Speaker 1: a sense of how this will be rolled out?

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Speaker 2: And I was talking to Malcolm recently and he made

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Speaker 2: the comment that he thought this could be one of

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Speaker 2: the best things he's done since starting Push Gap. It's

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Speaker 2: really remarkable sixty years later, right. I think the thing

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Speaker 2: that continues to amaze me is that the content gets

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Speaker 2: better and better. You think about the tip of the

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Speaker 2: life cycle of a hit in media, right and something

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Speaker 2: to grow, and then it sustains and then maybe it

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Speaker 2: drops off a little bit. The fact that the creators

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Speaker 2: that we work with, Malcolm, specifically our creating content that

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Speaker 2: gets better and better is absolutely remarkable to me. We

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Speaker 2: also have Jake Halprin on the network, who Variety named

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Speaker 2: one of the ten storytellers to watch for twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: and you just publish the sixth season in Deep Cover

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Speaker 2: and it hit number one for the first time. Like that,

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Speaker 2: show continues to get better and better and better. I

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Speaker 2: can't wait for next season, which coming in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: Sikes as well. I think this season, specifically for Malcolm,

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Speaker 2: will be something new for folks which will be really interesting.

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Speaker 2: It's not quite true crime, but it has elements of

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Speaker 2: the true crime series that people are familiar with in

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Speaker 2: the Malcolm style that gets his message across. So it's

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Speaker 2: gonna be seven episodes and it's launching October second, and

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Speaker 2: you'll see quite a bit of around that. Of course

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Speaker 2: Malcolm will be speaking about. It's a hefty topic we contextualized.

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Speaker 2: It'll be promoted across the Pushkin network as well as iHeart.

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Speaker 2: You'll see some live activations with Malcolm as well.

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Speaker 1: Also about Michael Lewis. Is hard to believe ten years

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Speaker 1: since The Big Short. I remember seeing that in the

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Speaker 1: theater and it was so inventive in the storytelling form

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Speaker 1: of the film. So as if I understand this right,

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Speaker 1: Pushkin is going to re release The Big Short as

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Speaker 1: an audio book. As part of that, Michael Lewis is

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Speaker 1: going to host a companion series as part of his

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Speaker 1: ongoing Against the Rules series that will launch October fourteenth.

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Speaker 1: And look back now at ten years since The Big Short,

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Speaker 1: What's changed? What's not? It sounds so good. Everything I

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Speaker 1: know about the mortgage crisis came from The Big Short,

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Speaker 1: the book which I devoured and the movie which I

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Speaker 1: have seen at least twice. Is this the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that now you're going to use this to bring

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Speaker 1: attention to other new shows.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the coolest projects that we do

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Speaker 2: with Michael, honestly, and it speaks to the depth of

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Speaker 2: the content that the creators we work with make, like

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Speaker 2: this is not disposable things that you listen to once

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Speaker 2: so you never return. It's almost like a content pipeline reversal.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen years ago, it was a best selling book, ten

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Speaker 2: years ago as an Oscar winning film, and next month

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Speaker 2: it's going to be a Companion podcast with an audiobook,

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Speaker 2: which he never did when back in the day when

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Speaker 2: he wrote the book, and so the first audiobook he's

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Speaker 2: done of The Big Short and what we saw unfold

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Speaker 2: in the events of the Big Short are playing out

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Speaker 2: in government today right. It's still as relevant today as

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Speaker 2: it was when he wrote it, and so the ability

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Speaker 2: to go back and reflect on the on the Companion

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Speaker 2: podcast alongside the new audiobook is something that we're so

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Speaker 2: excited about. We did it with with his first book,

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Speaker 2: Liar's Poker, a couple of years ago. Yes, yes, and more.

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Speaker 2: Of course we'll continue to do that over the next

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Speaker 2: few years as well, really excited about building that overall

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Speaker 2: series with Michael as well, and the companion podcast is

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Speaker 2: gonna be amazing. He's talking to folks who are involved

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Speaker 2: in the film and the real life inspirations for the characters.

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Speaker 2: So I think you'll come away with something completely new

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Speaker 2: from the cit of it.

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Speaker 1: You earlier mentioned an upcoming title called The Chinatown Sting,

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Speaker 1: a six episode limited series that is premiering September sixteenth.

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Speaker 1: It's from Lydia Jean Caught. Anybody who listened to Michael

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Speaker 1: Lewis's podcast coverage of the Sam Bankman freed trial knows

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Speaker 1: Lydia Jean. She was a star of that series and

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Speaker 1: can't wait for her to dive into its late nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighties Manhattan's Chinatown, massive undercovered drug busts. Sounds like a

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Speaker 1: lot of things to revisit, and of course there's a

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Speaker 1: whole subgenre now of looking back at crime and things

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Speaker 1: through the lens of today and how institutional racism and

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Speaker 1: many other factors influenced social justice and criminal justice. This

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Speaker 1: must also be fulfilling for you to have somebody come

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Speaker 1: from the grassroots to now doing her own show.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's so refreshing to see her grow as the

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Speaker 2: producer of Against the Rules with Michael and then coming

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Speaker 2: and pitching her own story and reporting it out coming

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Speaker 2: this massively talented storyteller, and we're doing a live event

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Speaker 2: with her at a Maajong parlor with Michael interviewing LJ,

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Speaker 2: alongside a bunch of big short events too. So it

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Speaker 2: really shows the network of fact of Pushkin. You're going

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Speaker 2: to see more and more amazing storytellers come out of

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Speaker 2: the Pushkin network, and LJ is just the beginning of it.

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Speaker 2: Justin Richmond on Broken Record was as Recruitment's producer and

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Speaker 2: Malcolm's producer, and there's just so many memes that are

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Speaker 2: coming up that that folks will become familiar with over

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Speaker 2: the coming months and years, and we're thrilled to be

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Speaker 2: a place that that can actually happen.

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Speaker 1: You have a number of other titles coming listeners. You

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Speaker 1: can read a whole separate story about this on Variety

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Speaker 1: dot com. Right now, Eric, before I let you go,

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Speaker 1: anything here out of these that are coming that you'd

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Speaker 1: like particularly like to highlight. Is there anything that amounts

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Speaker 1: to a new genre or a new initiative for the company.

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Speaker 2: I'd say Heavyweight Heavyweight Heavyweight. We are so thrilled that

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Speaker 2: Heavyweight joined the Pushkin network. It came up through the

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Speaker 2: Spotify ranks, and production had stopped about a year and

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Speaker 2: a half ago, and we just couldn't let Heavyweight go.

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Speaker 2: I always joke internally that I never have anyone that

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Speaker 2: I speak to who says I like Heavyweight. It's either

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Speaker 2: you've never heard of Heavyweight, or this is your favorite

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Speaker 2: show of all time. It is such an amazing journey

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Speaker 2: that it takes listeners on, and I think there's something

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Speaker 2: so special about investing in stories that unfold over time.

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Speaker 2: Some of the stories coming out this season have literally

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Speaker 2: been in the hopper and being reported for years. Maybe

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Speaker 2: there was one last interview they needed that just didn't happen,

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Speaker 2: or they never thought would happen, and they put it

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Speaker 2: to the side, and then all of a sudden, it happens.

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Speaker 2: That's the type of special storytelling that we want to

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Speaker 2: make sure there's room for in the industry and continue

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Speaker 2: to support. I think listeners and podcast folks in general

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Speaker 2: would just be heartbroken to see this go away. And

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Speaker 2: so that's the type of work that we want to support,

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Speaker 2: and I'm so excited to be working with Jonathan, but

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Speaker 2: we're thrilled to be bringing a new season of that

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Speaker 2: coming shortly a couple of weeks here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm in the former category of haven't heard of

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Speaker 1: it that I will definitelytify that. You raise a good

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Speaker 1: point that the investigative, the depth of the reporting that

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Speaker 1: is done here at takes time, and obviously that takes

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Speaker 1: money because journalists and podcasters and writers got to eat.

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Speaker 1: How do people juggle the demands of doing the kind

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Speaker 1: of depth that you bring to the ear versus you know,

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Speaker 1: making a living.

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Speaker 2: We strive to support the monetization increasingly and find economic

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Speaker 2: models that work for creators. And so that's a benefit

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Speaker 2: of being at the network that we are today, right,

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Speaker 2: We really believe in this. There's a dramatic statement going

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Speaker 2: on in the overall audio industry of the narrative podcasting

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Speaker 2: is gone and everything has to be chat and interview

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Speaker 2: and video.

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Speaker 1: Cares the thought.

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Speaker 2: I just don't think that's true, and that's not what

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Speaker 2: we're seeing happen at Pushkin. We want to give creators

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to continue to report out premium stories and

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Speaker 2: that bears out in the marketplace, like creating that funnel

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Speaker 2: so that a narrative series can become a book, can

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Speaker 2: become a TV show or movie. We're getting calls, it

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Speaker 2: feels like every week now from TV studios, movie studios,

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Speaker 2: major book publishers looking at those stories because they really

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Speaker 2: hit the emotional tones.

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Speaker 1: There's journalists out there pumping their fists. Eric, that is

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Speaker 1: exactly what people want to hear, which is supporting quality,

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Speaker 1: giving people the time to do the work. Any journalist

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Speaker 1: will tell you the more time you can spend reporting

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Speaker 1: a story, researching a story, the richer the final product,

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Speaker 1: no question, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And I think the way in which we're able to

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Speaker 2: enable that is building this audience that knows what to expect,

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Speaker 2: right like when we launch a new show, when we

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Speaker 2: launch a new project, there is that Pushkin audience that

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Speaker 2: is there and they're hungry for it, and that continues

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Speaker 2: to grow and grow and get more opportunities.

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Speaker 1: Eric, My last question for you is the name Pushkin.

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Speaker 1: Alexander Pushkin was a very colorful figure, a literary figure,

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Speaker 1: a poet and writer active in Russia in the early

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. He met an Alexander Hamilton like end in

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Speaker 1: a duel. I'm curious, do you know the origin story

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Speaker 1: of what why they called it Pushkin Industries.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of names quoted around in our

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Speaker 2: conference rooms in our office are still named after other

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Speaker 2: Russian poets and other folks at Pushkin represents a multicultural

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Speaker 2: creator who wasn't afraid to shift the boundaries and explore

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Speaker 2: storytelling and creativity whatever that format may look like. And

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Speaker 2: that goes to the core of how Pushkin Industries was

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Speaker 2: started and the type of work that we want to do.

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Speaker 2: We want to blow the lines between genres and formats,

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Speaker 2: and we want to have diverse voices across our network,

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Speaker 2: and we want to create content that stands with est

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Speaker 2: the time and also makes a real impact in people.

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Speaker 1: Really looking forward to diving into the new slate. Eric,

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Speaker 1: thank you Specs for having me. Thanks for listening. Be

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Speaker 1: sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or

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Speaker 1: Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners.

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Speaker 3: Please go to Variety dot com and sign up for

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Speaker 3: the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to

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Speaker 3: tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.

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Speaker 3: Mm HM