1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 2: Tracy, we have been in a leather jacket. 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's not just a leather jacket. It's a 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 3: black leather blazer with sort of braided edges. It's got 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 3: a little bit of a wait, is this an insult 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 3: or a compliment? I don't know, a little bit of 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 3: a little bit of a Ren fair Field. 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's a big to a volatility nerd. That's a couple. 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 3: Okay, good, all right. I was a question. 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 4: This is like one of it that would be a 11 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 4: very polarizing not to me. 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 2: I do not have renfair vibes. But look, I respect it. 13 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 2: These are renfair time, These are fair times. I get it. 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: I get it. 15 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: Absolutely. There's pictures of me on Twitter in you know, 16 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: Nightingale armor with his swords, So I think this is 17 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: a fair game. 18 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 2: I did a deadlist. 19 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 3: I'm both the most popular trader and most successful trader 20 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: at Citadel. That is going viral, barges. 21 00:00:58,480 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: This isn't after school special. 22 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 3: I've decided I'm going to base my entire personality going 23 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 3: forward on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the 24 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 3: US Black Goal. These are the important questions that robots 25 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: taking over the world. 26 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 4: No, I think that like in a couple of years, 27 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 4: the AI will do a really good job of making 28 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 4: the Odd lotch podcast. One day that person will have 29 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 4: the mandate of heaven. 30 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 3: How do I get more popular and successful? 31 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: We do have. 32 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 3: You're listening to lots More where we catch up with 33 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: friends about what's going on right now, because. 34 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 4: Even when the Odd Lots is over, there's always lots More. 35 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 3: And we really do have the perfect guest. 36 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 4: We are, of course with Ben Eiffer qv R Advisors. 37 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 4: Then who's been getting steamrolled the most by this market? 38 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 4: And I have some thoughts on this market, but I 39 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 4: want to hear your No. 40 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: It's a super fun market. I mean really, First you 41 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: had the deep seak thing, yeah, right, and that was 42 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: really interesting because equity markets went down, but the fund 43 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: was all under the surface, right, what did we sell 44 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: off eight or ten percent? And index? It wasn't a 45 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: huge deal, but there were like eight standard deviation moves 46 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: in market, neutral factor type relationships and crowded equity long 47 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: short and so you saw you know the type of 48 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: people that had the really popular equity positions. You'll Nvidia 49 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: and you know Tesla and all these kind of stocks 50 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: just get really really murdered. You heard of a lot 51 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: of pain at the big multistrats. Again you have to 52 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: put that in context because they're pretty well risk managed. 53 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: The losses weren't that large in percent terms, but you 54 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: had again just very very very large moves. And then 55 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: I think the interesting thing about that was that led 56 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: to a lot of d risking in hedge funds. So 57 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: you had pretty high gross in net leverage coming into 58 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: that and then it came off quite a lot, you know, 59 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: a lot of d risking. And then when you know 60 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: that when Liberation Day hit, I think positioning wasn't nearly 61 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: as you know, as offsides as it could have been otherwise. 62 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: And so you did see obviously big drawdowns in the 63 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: equity market and big rallies back a lot of volatility, 64 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: but I think, you know, the losses that you saw 65 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: among head funds probably weren't as bad as they would 66 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: have been otherwise. Another interesting thing to note, and we 67 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about this a lot. There really 68 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: isn't that much of the kind of super crowded short volatility, 69 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: short tail risk, tail risk selling kind of stuff out 70 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: there that there was, like in twenty nineteen twenty twenty 71 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: for the pandemic. So you didn't see that those kind 72 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: of fireworks right there. Weren't like hedge funds getting liquidated 73 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: and people getting carried out in body bags and big 74 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: auctions of all their positions making markets go crazy. You 75 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: just didn't really have that kind of stuff. What you 76 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: had was a pretty fundamentally driven, you know, orderly sell off, 77 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: followed by you know, goofy rallies back and forth on 78 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: Trump tweets and what's he going to do and all 79 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: this kind of thing. But it was really, I think 80 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: much more about about you know, fundamentals of expectations of 81 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: what is policy really actually going to be and how 82 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: much does that matter for the economy as opposed to 83 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: like technical positioning hedge fund blow ups and people getting steamrolled. 84 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like the positioning point is really important 85 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: and is probably one of the reasons like we had, 86 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 3: I'm doing air quotes here, but that orderly sell off 87 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: versus something super super chaotic. But that said, I mean 88 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 3: we're talking about it being a fun market. I feel 89 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: like I have to make the obvious disclaimer, which is, 90 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: I'm sure it's very fun if you're in options and 91 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: in volatility trading. But if you're in the sort of 92 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: long term buy and hold game, this feels almost like 93 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: an impossible environment to navigate, right, Like one day we're 94 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: up two or three percent, the next day we're down 95 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 3: two or three percent. Everything is riding on like what 96 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: Scott Besson says, what Lutnik chooses to say, and god knows, 97 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 3: you know what Trump is going to say in his 98 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: latest press conference very much so. 99 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: And you know, and in today too, it's like, well, 100 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: yesterday we were up three point two percent and then 101 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: there was a bunch of walking back of the unilateral 102 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: terra production position, and then we sold off, you know, 103 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: halfway back to flat almost immediately. I think there were 104 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: I think someone. 105 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 4: By the way, we're recording this April twenty fourth, it's 106 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 4: ten oh eight am. 107 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: Every time we have a Yesterday. 108 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: Or something that's right, very good point, keep going yeap, 109 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: So we had I think just this morning I saw 110 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: an article I think Alexander wrote it at Bloomberg saying, 111 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: you know, we're in a traders are trying to trade 112 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: Trump tweet's market, and that's really hard. You know. I 113 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: think that generally speaking, anybody that you talk to the 114 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: success rate of sitting there at your computer and looking 115 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: at what just got tweeted or what article just came out, 116 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: and then sort of doing trades and making money, Like 117 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: nobody makes money at that. It's incredibly difficult, right, It's 118 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: a very choppy market. The people who do, of course, 119 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: as you point it out, volatility traders have a very 120 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: non consensus view on what's fun and what's not right. 121 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: We love this, but yeah, I think that's. 122 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: Your definitions of fun may vary. 123 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: Exactly back to the renaissance fair point. 124 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 4: So, I thought there was a very interesting point about 125 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 4: deep seek, which is that what it really obliterated were 126 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 4: the market neutral factors that had been working on. That 127 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 4: is very interesting, And of course, you know the pod 128 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 4: shops that we're always talking about, their game is to 129 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 4: find those market neutral and then this was a thing 130 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 4: that just rearranged everything. 131 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: You know, when you're on. 132 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 4: Before you talk about the TikTok option influencers who are 133 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 4: always looking at various Greek letters like alpha, beta, Gamma, delta, 134 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 4: Epsilon's zeta, ata, theta iota, Kappa, lambdamu when oopsilon is 135 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 4: trading way out there on some extreme all these trades 136 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 4: are premised on some sort of mean reversion that there 137 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 4: isn't a dislocation, and then eventually a normal returns, right. 138 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 4: And it may go further out and the sigma and 139 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 4: the row may get further blown out, but eventually they 140 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 4: come back to normal. How much of this is like 141 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 4: a crisis of people really don't know that some sort 142 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 4: of fundamental economic mean reversion is coming. 143 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's something really important to that, right. 144 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 1: I think that people are very conditioned in this market 145 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: of the last many many years, really post credit crisis, right, 146 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: that that sort of nothing ever happens. We talk about 147 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: this a lot, right, but that any kind of sell 148 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: off will be immediately bought, It'll immediately come back, any 149 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: kind of all spike will get sold. And you know, 150 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: even in the pandemic, obviously people got run over on 151 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: that view, but we still did come back. It's just 152 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: that it got really crazy for like a month, right, Yeah. 153 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: And I think this feels very different, where this isn't 154 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: a flat in the pan with a technical squeeze and 155 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: a big explosion of stuff like this is. You know, 156 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: there are the real fundamental issues here, which is that 157 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, the US government is out there doing totally 158 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: crazy economic policy that every economist in the world for 159 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: the most part, will tell you is totally crazy. And 160 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: they're also changing the goalposts day to day on what 161 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: exactly that policy is going to be, and they've really 162 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: eroded the market's confidence that they kind of know what 163 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: they're doing, not only on tariffs, but I think on 164 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: everything else now, right, I think that one of the 165 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: most important things that Liberation Day did was, you know, 166 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: take the market, which really up to that point, I 167 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: think you have to say, kind of believed that the 168 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: tariffs thing was like this four dimensional chess strategy and 169 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: negotiation and everything else crazy that Trump was saying, you 170 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: kind of discount, right, because he's not really going to 171 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: do that. He's got a plan. And really the market 172 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: really had to re rate that whole expectations of how 173 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: to interpret everything that Trump and his administration say or 174 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: say they're going to do, because gosh, they said they 175 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: were going to do this crazy tariffs thing and then 176 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: they did it five times crazier than everybody thought they 177 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: were going to do. Yeah, right, and not just crazier 178 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: in terms of levels of tariffs, but in terms of 179 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: like the clownishness of implementation, right that like the chat 180 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: GBT night before tariff table with the Penguin Islands and 181 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: like the whole thing. Right, So then when Trump is 182 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: out there saying, Okay, tomorrow, you know, next week we're 183 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: going to deport thirty million immigrants or like whatever crazy 184 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: thing that he says, the market kind of has to 185 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: take that more seriously now, right, or at least question 186 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: like what are the possible implications? And so I think 187 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: it's a very different environment going forward, right, It's unlikely 188 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: that that's going to just change and that he's going 189 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: to suddenly turn into like a really serious guy. 190 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: So, speaking of things being weird, and there are any 191 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: number of weird things that we could choose to talk 192 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: about here, but like one of the weirdest to me 193 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 3: has been what's been going on in equity volatility. So 194 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 3: we've had a very big gap between the VIX, which 195 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: is implied volatility versus realized volatility, which you know, like 196 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 3: maybe explain the difference to us just to begin with, 197 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 3: and like why we've seen that gap really developed? 198 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: Sure? Absolutely, So the VIX is up is something that 199 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: everybody talks about, but not everybody really thinks about exactly 200 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: what it is, right, it's the fear index. But what 201 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 1: it is is it's a level of what's called implied volatility. 202 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: So in some sense you could think of it as 203 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: the market's forecast for realized volatility over the next month 204 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: based on option prices. It's a little bit more nuanced, though, 205 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: because calculation that they chose for a VIX isn't regular volatility. 206 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: It's something called variance, which is volatility squared but then 207 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: normalized back into units that are volatility. And the distinction 208 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: there is that it's so the level of VIX is 209 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: the level of what's called the variance swap, and a 210 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: variant swap pays you, as a volatility trader who buys 211 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: it proportional to the square of volatility. And so what 212 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: that means is if volatility doubles, you actually make a 213 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: whole lot more money, or if volatility goes up by 214 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: four times, you make a ridiculously amount more money. Yea's right, 215 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: there's a big slope to it, and so you have 216 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: to pay a big premium to buy a variant swap 217 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: relative to what you would pay to just buy volatility. 218 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: And so when you compare the VIX to realize volatility 219 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: or how much markets are moving on average. On average, 220 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: there should be an extra premium there. It's not just 221 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: direct comparable. Now to Tracy's point, though, realized volatility recently 222 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: has actually been generally much higher than like the average 223 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: level of the VIX. Now, the VIX did spike into 224 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: the fifties kind of briefly, but it's mostly come back 225 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: down into like the thirties and high twenties. But yet 226 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: markets are often moving you know, three percent in a 227 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: day or four or five percent in a day, which 228 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: implies a much higher level of implied volatility. 229 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: It's a crazy chart. So you can you can chart 230 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: on the Bloomberg on your handy Bloomberg terminal, like the 231 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 3: Gamma index versus the VIX. You could see that like 232 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 3: the jaws kind of opening over the past few weeks. 233 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. And again that's really reflects a 234 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, aggressive bet on the part of market participants 235 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 1: that realized volatility has been high, but it's going to 236 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: be lower over the next month than it was, and 237 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: it's and actually the degree to which you see that 238 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: in your chart is understated because of that variant swap effect. 239 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 1: You're actually not really even comparing the right number with 240 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: the right number to compare would be like at the 241 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: money implied ball, which you can also plot in Bloomberg. 242 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 3: Oh what's the ticker for that? 243 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: So you would just do SPX index and then you 244 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: would do there's going to be a field for it, 245 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: which would be like one month, one mt h something 246 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: something field. 247 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 3: But yeah, oh awesome, Yes, this is very useful. 248 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: Thank you. There you go, And that guy will usually 249 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: be anywhere between say three and eight or ten points 250 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: below vix, depending on the level of X. So with 251 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: VIX at fifty, that's probably at forty or thirty eight or. 252 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 3: Something like that. You know. 253 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 4: Tracy and I we put on events, trivia events, et cetera. 254 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 4: One of the dreams that we have though, is a 255 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 4: Bloomberg terminal live company competition terminal Olympics where we get 256 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 4: like twenty traders and they're all seated at a terminal 257 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 4: so good calculate actually, and they always flashes on a 258 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 4: screen who gets the answer first? 259 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 2: Like, how well do you know? 260 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: So that would be such a good tea. 261 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 4: I think we think Ben for coming on if nothing else, 262 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 4: to give us quotes and news about functions for when. 263 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: We eventually put this on. 264 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 4: I don't follow like you know, the Wolf of Gamma 265 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 4: or whatever on TikTok you've seen anything good? 266 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: What are they saying they got? 267 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: They all got real quiet? 268 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: What are you seeing out there? You got any good? 269 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: Like tweets or you know sellers or whatever. 270 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: Seriously, so as you know, like on a regular basis 271 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,119 Speaker 1: in normal environments, like everybody is tagging me in ridiculous 272 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: like tweets or Instagram posts or whatever that that these 273 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: kind of option selling influencers are making, you know, the 274 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: coal options grind guy and like all these people. And 275 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: as of you know, a couple of weeks ago, there's 276 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: just absolute crickets from that community because the types of 277 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: trades that you know, they they advocate, as we talked 278 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: about last time, you know, they make a little bit 279 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: of money on average, you know, for a while, and 280 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: then they give it all back or twice as much 281 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: back when something like this happens. And so there's not 282 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: a whole lot of talking coming from that crowd, and 283 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: you see it reflected. You know, obviously you can't see 284 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: what you know is how happening to those highly over 285 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: leveraged individuals that are unfortunately following that kind of advice. 286 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: You know, you can look at how well like covered 287 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: call ETFs are performing relative to just the underlying and 288 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: things like that to get a little bit of of 289 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: a little bit of a sense. You know, look at 290 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: the mstr covered call ETF for example, right, And it's 291 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: just bad because the worst possible environment for those kind 292 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 1: of strategies is when you have a sharp spike in 293 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,599 Speaker 1: realized volatility, and especially if there's like a lot of 294 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: chop and back and forth, you know, mean reversion, right, 295 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: because you'll have a situation where where they're selling like 296 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: these weekly options, right, and you have a really big 297 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: sell off for a week, they lose a bunch of 298 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: money on their puts, and then they sell some calls 299 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: and you have the big rally back, and then they 300 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: lose their money on their calls. And again, none of 301 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: this is like something that they explain to their followers. 302 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: They just sort of tell their followers that the income 303 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: of the strategy is like the option premium that they sold, 304 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: and they don't conceptualize the possibility that you can actually 305 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: lose money when you sell the option. 306 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 4: Tracy, every once in a while, I'm reminded that we 307 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 4: exist in world where there's like fourteen ETFs. 308 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: That are based on various doing things. 309 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: Micro strategy is crazy amazing anyway, Sorry, well, also. 310 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 3: I'm still blown away by the fact that micro Strategy 311 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 3: also calls out the volatility and its share price in 312 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 3: its earnings call as like a selling point. 313 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: Look how volatile we were in circuits and it's beautiful, right, 314 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: But I mean Sailor is very smart, right, so Sailor 315 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: understands all this stuff perfectly. If you if you can 316 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: run a really really high volatility company, yes you can. 317 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: It means hedge funds love your convertible bonds and will 318 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: pay anything to get your convertible bonds. Yeah, it makes 319 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: your actually makes your credit cheaper. 320 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 3: And I gotta say, if people want to hear more 321 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: about this, we did record a lots more with Matt Leveeh. 322 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: It was a great episode. 323 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 3: God, it feels like so long. It feels like it 324 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 3: was two years. 325 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: We get the. 326 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 4: Luxury of talking about micro strategy for a whole episode once. 327 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: Pretty amazing. 328 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: I feel like this is kind of the secret of 329 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 3: volatility and options trading, which is like you think that 330 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: a lot of these guys, a lot of these influencers 331 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: would really enjoy this particular trading environment, but so much 332 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 3: of it is based on that mean reversion that Joe 333 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: pointing out that a lot of stuff just blows up 334 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 3: when you finally get volatility right, it really does. 335 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: Wait not to come back to this, but MSTR. But 336 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: did you see that there is going to be MSTR 337 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: for Solana? 338 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, and they're yes, they're trying to I was. 339 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 4: I actually appeered on a crypto podcast recently and I 340 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 4: was like, I'm tapping out this. 341 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: I don't understand MSDR. 342 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 4: But now there's a bunch of like copycats, and the 343 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 4: question is can anyone really repeat this? 344 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? 345 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but GSR just led a big round and to upa. 346 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: I just have to read these. Sorry, I have one 347 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: more question, but I just before I do. 348 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 4: Here's some of the ETFs Defiant daily target two x 349 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 4: long MSTR ETF yield max MSTR Option income Strategy ETF 350 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 4: t REX two two x long MSTR daily target ETF 351 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 4: bit wise MSTR income Strategy. Oh there's another one st 352 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 4: key day, one hundred percent MSTR and one hundred percent 353 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 4: coin TF. So I guess it makes us some coinbase 354 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 4: in there. 355 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: There's a lot more. I just had to read those 356 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 2: in last question for me, Like, if you're. 357 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 4: A long only investor, just a normal whatever investors I am, 358 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 4: you know you have two choices I think, which is 359 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 4: one the hope and praise strategy, which I always actually 360 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 4: think is very legitimate because that does tend to work 361 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 4: out over a long enough timeline. Or they're like, oh, 362 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 4: I really need to think about diversification strategy or something 363 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 4: like that. Okay, in your world, don't you still have 364 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 4: to have some sort of view because if the question 365 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 4: is do some of these Greek letters snap back into 366 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 4: place or there's a gap between where this Greek letter 367 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 4: and this Greek letter are pricing to make money, don't 368 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 4: you still need. 369 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: To have a view like I do. 370 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: That's a great question. So there's a couple of different 371 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: important things here. There are different types of trades in 372 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: the derivatives world that are driven by dislocations. Some of 373 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: those trades make money on realized dynamics and markets and 374 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: don't rely on some implied Greek coming back into Okay, right, 375 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: so Tracy was talking about, you know, realized volatility and 376 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: implied volatility. This is like a simple dumb example, but 377 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: just suppose that implied volatility was just always way too low, 378 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: and realize volatiley was way higher for short term options. 379 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: You would just buy short term options and hedge them 380 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: all the time, and you would just make money constantly. Yeah, 381 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: and you wouldn't need that to ever change. Wouldn't ever 382 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: want that to change. You wouldn't ever want that dislocation 383 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: to go away. Okay. So there are some things like 384 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: that that we can make money based on a dislocation 385 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: but without requiring the dislocation to close. And then there 386 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: are other things where exactly as you point out, you're 387 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: trading an implied dislocation and you're going to only make 388 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: money when it reverts. And for things like that, you know, 389 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: we really have to think hard about, Okay, where is 390 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: this dislocation coming from? What flows are driving it? Are 391 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: those flows that are going to be persistent and not 392 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 1: go away and it's unlikely that those dislocations close. Are 393 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: there fundamentals that actually cause that dislocation to stay there 394 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: even if it doesn't really make sense? Or is this 395 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: something that is being driven by temporary supply and demand 396 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: dynamics in the market and you understand what might push 397 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: it back over what kind of time horizon? And the 398 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: latter is an interesting trade. The former really isn't, And 399 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: you actually have to think very hard about that. You 400 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: can't just look at the level of the Wazoo parameter 401 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: on a screen and sort of say, which, by the way, 402 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: is the made up parameter that exotic derivatives traders you know, 403 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: use to claim why you're losing money on your trade 404 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: with them. 405 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: Man, I'm always looking at those parameters. That's a big mistake. Okay, 406 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: Well I have a very simplistic question based on this conversation. 407 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 3: But okay, implied volatility down quite a bit, realize volatility 408 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 3: is still up quite a bit. Is buying vall that 409 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: sort of hedging protection? Is that cheap at the moment? Like? 410 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 3: Would you be a buyer at these levels? Basically? 411 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you believe as I think I do, that 412 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: Trump two point zero is not a low volatility president, 413 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 1: right that one way or another, Right, this is different 414 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean the world is going to end necessarily, 415 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: but that this is not like a ten percent realized 416 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: volatility market, and he doesn't want it that way, he 417 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: doesn't like it that way. Then yeah, I think you 418 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: have to look at when you look at the overall 419 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: volatility landscape, there are a lot of things that are 420 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: relatively cheap, and you know, in our core business we're 421 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: absolute return. We're always looking for what's cheap and what's expensive, 422 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: and you know, hedge trades and so forth. But we 423 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: also do help big institutional investors with tail risk hedging 424 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: and with things that are outright defensive to protect their portfolios. 425 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: And yeah, there's still lots and lots of opportunities for 426 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: that because really in this market we talked about this 427 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: a little bit, but the knee jerk reaction of most 428 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: market participants is that when volatility goes up, they just 429 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: think you have to sell it, and they do a 430 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: lot of risk on trades in the volatility markets, which 431 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: don't necessarily make sense, you know, from a risk reward perspective. 432 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: Most of the time, they should just buy equities, to 433 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: be honest, if they want to be bullish. 434 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: Actually, you just reminded me. I mean, one of the 435 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 3: other things we just saw was like this huge contraction 436 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: in risk appetite across the entire financial industry basically around 437 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: April second, that Liberation day. Who is selling vall at 438 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 3: the moment, and have you seen continued appetite to sell 439 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 3: volatility in the current environment, yeah, no very much. 440 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: So, so one thing that you can always tell is 441 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: when you get a sell off like this and the 442 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: VIC spikes a lot. So VIX went to a little 443 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: over fifty. Look at where the front month Vick's future 444 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: is trading, and that tells you whether people are buying 445 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: or selling ball. So the front month VIX future had 446 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, five or six days left to maturity early 447 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: after Liberation Day, and it was trading at you know, 448 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: thirty two when the VIX was fifty, right, So it 449 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: was implying massive speed of normalization and mean reversion because 450 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: everybody's selling it. And the VIX future is the best 451 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: thing to look at because it's the tourist instrument, right, 452 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: So you know, vall traders, you know, trade the VIX 453 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: inasmuch as there's dislocations in it. But if you're just 454 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: a regular equity guy and you think ball is too high, 455 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: you don't go trade options. Options are too much work. 456 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: VIX is really easy, right because you can trade the ETFs, 457 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: you can trade the futures. You don't have to think 458 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: about like the gamma and the you know, the baga 459 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: and all that stuff, and so there's an overwhelming appetite 460 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: to sell ball on ball spikes from a lot of 461 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: parts of the hedge fund community, from tourists, from volatility 462 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: tourists within the hedge fund community, and from retail investors. Also, 463 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: retail investors are very much dip buyers and ball sellers 464 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: on spikes. 465 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 4: Valdi tourists would be a good name for a trivia 466 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 4: team one of our trivia nights. 467 00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: I'm a Volatility that is a good A good name, 468 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: be a fun one. 469 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 4: Lots More is produced by Carmen Rodriguez and dash Ol Bennett, 470 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 4: with help from Moses Onam and kil Brooks. 471 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 3: Our sound engineer is Blake Maples. Sage Bauman is the 472 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 3: head of Bloomberg Podcasts. 473 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 4: Please rate, review, and subscribe to Odd, Lots and Lots 474 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 4: More on your favorite podcast platforms. 475 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 3: And remember that Bloomberg subscribers can listen to all our 476 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 3: podcasts ad free by connecting through Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.